Fourth Hokage

It really is confusing. I will keep on believing that he is still alive but look over the facts of what is logically right.

Everyone says the 4th died in the incident with the Kyubi, using the Shiki Fuujin. Then Orochimaru summoned the 3 Caskets but the last one failed, summoning only 2 Hokages, when meaning to summon 3. However, like the 3rd said, the Shiki Fuujin locks your soul in forever combat INSIDE the Death God. Although the Edo Tensei Kuchiyose summoned their body, it probably summoned their souls as well because the First and Second Hokage recognized Sarutobi. And also, they show the Akatsuki leader's hair, which is blonde. So he can STILL be alive but he has been proven death indirectly and incorrectly. What would've happened if Sarutobi did not stop the 3rd casket from coming? I'm pretty sure the 4th, who mastered Shiki Fuujin, knew a way around it. My thoughts is that the 4th is the leader of Akatsuki but its like self contradicting with the facts I said... and if you say he is dead then it is yet again self contradicting as well...

Also, it's only logical that the 4th Hokage has perfected Shiki Fuujin because the 4th described the technique to the 3rd after having to use it. Sarutobi, however, told Oro that as soon as he used that technique he had already been fated to be dead. Yet, 4th used it and was able to describe it to the 3rd... Madd confusing. So this is a theory that supports that the 4th may still be alive.

What do you guys think?

In light of earlier complaints about titles being too descriptive here, I went ahead and renamed this thread. Personally if I wasn't a manga reader, I don't think I'd like to know that whether the 4th is alive or not is a current topic of conversation.

He didn't die. He tturned into a bratty small snotty nosed Kid by the name of Naruto. Kinda like how Goku turned into a small boy again in Dragonball GT.

So... one of the 4th's old enemies gets a hold of some new set of Dragonballs and the 4th interupted him casting his wish only to have him wish that he was a little kid again so he could beat him? Huh...

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Originally Posted by joekinplaya

Also, it's only logical that the 4th Hokage has perfected Shiki Fuujin because the 4th described the technique to the 3rd after having to use it. Sarutobi, however, told Oro that as soon as he used that technique he had already been fated to be dead. Yet, 4th used it and was able to describe it to the 3rd... Madd confusing. So this is a theory that supports that the 4th may still be alive.

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It never stated that the 4th literally described the effects of Shiki Fuujin to the 3rd. Most likely, the jutsu was developed with those conditions set as characteristic. Basically, if it doesn't exchange the user's life to seal the target's soul, it isn't Shiki Fuujin. There's no point in trying to find a loophole in that, other than not using it at all.

I think this is a retarded Naruto theory and you should just wait for the storyline to develop more by reading the manga every week.

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Originally Posted by Genma

I think this is a retarded Naruto theory and you should just wait for the storyline to develop more by reading the manga every week.

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I think this is a retarted post.

Anyway, I agree with Stoopider and the 4th was probably incarnated somehow into Naruto.

One thing that supports the idea of the fourth being somehow reincarnated as Naruto is that he would have sealed the Kyuubi inside himself, not some random baby, like the third did.

Interesting theory but it's highly unlikely and there's not enough information to give this theory any credibility

The Fourth can't be reincarnated into Naruto because Naruto was already born when the Fourth sealed Kyuubi inside of him. If he is, then that's just... weird. I'm also pretty sure that the Fourth did die because, well, they said it in like the first episode/chapter. The fact that the Fourth died to seal Kyuubi into Naruto is like a basis for the whole series. I haven't ever seen Kishimoto go back and change something like that, something that's repeatedly mentioned as a fact and inspiration for characters for hundreds of chapters/episodes.

The Summoning technique probably just summons the person's soul from wherever they were, and keeps them there until the technique is broken. And then the soul goes back to where it's supposed to be. It's forbidden because people aren't supposed to be tampering with the dead in the first place and it probably creates loopholes like what could have happened with the Fourth. One reason why Kishimoto made the Fourth not be summoned by Orochimaruwas prolly because it would clash with Shiki Fuujin in the first place.

@joekinplaya - I don't remember anything about the Fourth telling Sarutobi about the skill after ALREADY using it. He talked about it with Sarutobi, but he hadn't done it yet.

This is just mere theoretical speculation more than anything. I know for a fact that all the hokages know Tajou Kage Bunshin, so here's my question. If the 3rd hokage used kage bunshin (which were two used for the previous Hokages) to seal the 1st & 2nd Hokage and Orochimaru's arms with Shiki Fuujin; then isn't it possible that 4th Hokage didn't die just by using one kage bunshin with a shiki fuujin to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto? I was just curious, by looking at the outline of the Akatsuki leader's head and the eyes resemble that of the 4th Hokage. I don't know.

Theres like 4 types of hairstyles in anime, so saying that so and so has the same hair as the 4th doesn't prove anything. As for sealing the kyubi with a kage bunshin the reason that can't work is cuz when you create a shadow clone, the power is divided equally. So even with just 1 clone, it would only be half as powerful as the the original. And with something as powerful as kyuubi, a kage bunshin would probably be ineffective since even in his prime, the 4th could only seal it, not kill it.


Anyway, the 4th = naruto's fater is a plausible theory and it has been brought up about 3490 times now. No way to know untill its shown in the manga. Regarding the reincarnation theory, thats just stupid. As sapphire pointed out, naruto was born before the 4th died which is why he was able to seal the kyuubi in naruto.

And as for the original post, the 4th's coffin was called forth but sandaime threw a kunai at it and managed to stop the 4th being resurrected. Go watch that episode again.

my thought on the subject.
(just my hunch, not powered by facts or manga proofs).

the case of learnning the sealing jutsu is really a stupid argument, if you say that the 3rd couldn't have learned it before the 4th died, you might as well say that the 4th couldn't have learned it without his master dying to explain the jutsu...

as for the sealing target, I'm guessing that the 3rd could seal orochimaru into himself since both were in the same state (verge of dying, and pretty damn mortal, despite thier best efforts), however, in the state of the 4th, he probably needed someone with enough 'lifeforce' to keep back the demon. also, if you consider the fact no one knows what will happen to the kyuubi once naruto dies, perhaps the 4th was afraid that if he seals the demon inside him and then die right away, the demon will be released, meanning that nothing was achieved. so maybe the 4th decided to seal the demon into a child to buy off some time to the village to rebuild itself and produce a new ninja generation.

Kagebunshin seal - I really don't get this thing, you guys actually think you can trick dear ol' death to take a shadow clone's soul? this isn't a shitty freshman p2p program, there aren't any loopholes and code errors in the deal, you can't stand the heat of putting away your soul? don't stand in the battle kitchen.
and by the way, since the two dead hokages were already dead at the time, they probably came in the bargin deal of wasting oro away, so the 3rds' bunshins were just thier as a medium to channel the jutsu energy.
oh, and his body bag? probably didn't appear since Kishi doesn't want us to know how the 4th looks like. or maybe it turned out that the dosu corpse he had wasn't fit to be a ahokage contanier (it was rotting in the sun for a month after being smashed by Gaara, I can't even see how it maintened human form).

morally speaking, Naruto can't be the 4th incarniate. if he was then his acsent (spelling?) to the hokage seat was assured, which would render the storyline pointless (as in "Naruto wasn't a loser who worked hard to be the hokage, he was fuckin' born after having been declated the strongest hokage ever"). but I'm counting on Kishimonto to mess this one up as well.
Maybe the 4th turned into Sasuke?:)

the 4th is probably dead, no eye to eye screenshot can convince me otherwise, don't you remember the sharingan eyes edit of inane?

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Originally Posted by Death BOO Z

...since the two dead hokages were already dead at the time, they probably came in the bargin deal of wasting oro away, so the 3rds' bunshins were just thier as a medium to channel the jutsu energy.

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So you mean to tell me they wasted all that energy in trying to kill the Third Hokage, even though they were being controlled by Orochimaru? The previous Hokages were already dead, Orochimaru just summoned their souls into sacrificial bodies.

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Originally Posted by Assassin

Theres like 4 types of hairstyles in anime, so saying that so and so has the same hair as the 4th doesn't prove anything. As for sealing the kyubi with a kage bunshin the reason that can't work is cuz when you create a shadow clone, the power is divided equally. So even with just 1 clone, it would only be half as powerful as the the original. And with something as powerful as kyuubi, a kage bunshin would probably be ineffective since even in his prime, the 4th could only seal it, not kill it

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Care to explain how Sarutobi made two clones, used Shiki Fuujin, summoned Enma, Hokage level jutsu's, while fighting three tough opponents in his 60+ years of age?







....Then again, Orochimaru was going to die when Naruto lost control with his fourth tail.

Answering the topic..HE IS DEAD.

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Originally Posted by .noname.silent

Care to explain how Sarutobi made two clones, used Shiki Fuujin, summoned Enma, Hokage level jutsu's, while fighting three tough opponents in his 60+ years of age?

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What's your point? none of that actually goes against what i said. I said you probably couldn't seal kyuubi using a kage bunshin, i never said it was impossible for a clone to use it.

As far as the rest of the stuff goes, i believe he summoned enma before making the clones (even if he didn't its not like a clone can't summon). Same goes for using hokage level jutus. Even if they're clones, they're clones of the hokage so they know all the same jutsu's.

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Originally Posted by .noname.silent

So you mean to tell me they wasted all that energy in trying to kill the Third Hokage, even though they were being controlled by Orochimaru? The previous Hokages were already dead, Orochimaru just summoned their souls into sacrificial bodies.

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No, I trying to say that sealing away two dead hokages (who are dead, and have no 'attachment' to the world) is easier than sealing away a living persons soul, and that the 3rd didn't neccereally have to use more 'souls' to seal them, since they're aren't really alive. I think that the clones were just a medium (channeling devices, the 3rd and 4th arms to catch the enemy and start the jutsu) rather than users of the jutsu.

As far as I'm concerned shadow clones don't have souls. They just do what the original tells them too. The subtle difference between them and replications is due to the distribution of chakra, they can perform skills and have other minute abilities. We see this in the Tea Country arc, in which Naruto gets his clones to do the first stage of Rasengan in the water.

Shadow clones usually disappear when the owner starts to go low on chakra, so shadow clones most likely go poof when the original dies.

I believe Sarutobi couldn't kill the First and Second by normal means, so he had to execute a technique that would forcibly kill them. I don't remember quite clearly, but I'm pretty sure that his clones did the seals for Shiki Fuujin too. The First and Second might not have been alive, but they had every ounce of strength that they did when they were. Plus they couldn't die normally in battle. Given Sarutobi's strength and resources, that was a toally convenient way to kill them. For the skill to be effective, Sarutobi prolly would have died anyway even if only his clone did the jutsu. If you only do half of what's required in a skill, it won't work.

anyway, with kishimoto "revealing" to us about sandaime hokage and asuma's relationship that we pretty much thought was true since the beginnign (with the whole sarutobi name)...it is very well possible that

a. yondaime is naruto's father
b. naruto just never knew his father (so none of that hokage title guaranteed thing applies)
c. naruto's mother is someone that will be introduced
d. yondaime may have been reincarnated into the akatsuki leader (as many have been speculating with the whole spiky hair thing)
e. if naruto dies with the kyubi still sealed inside, the kyubi will die. simple as that. but in the manga, they've been saying that the kyubi seal that yondaime put was weakening

The 4Th didn't die he become leader of the Akatsuki. You can see by reading the manga.

^ Eh? I've been reading the manga since the Sasuke pursuit arc but never was the 4th being alive mentioned.
Lol, you've probably watched that retarded YouTube video. XD The end of the clip shows a Photoshop-ed manga chapter where the akatsuki leader reveals himself as the 4th. I wanna kill its author.

Okay, let me try this one...

In the terrible battle fighting the Kyuubi, the 4th, in an effort to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto, fell into a battle of wills with the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi, being a Nine-tailed demon, began to attempt to corrupt the 4th with his evil chakra. Right before he lost their battle of wills, the 4th died sealing the Kyuubi into Naruto...or so we thought!

We all know the healing ability of Naruto is directly connected to the Kyuubi's chakra, after all, if he dies, it dies. It has a reason to protect Naruto. The 4th has perfect control over his chakra, since that's the basis of the Rasengan. What really happened was the 4th appeared to die, and for a time he probably did. But, his will lived on seconds longer than his body, and began to control the Kyuubi's chakra in an effort to heal himself.

However, using the Kyuubi's evil chakra corrupted the 4th further, and its evil will merged with his own. He rose back from near death and ran deep into the forests of the Fire Country. There, he began to hone his skills and began gathering others around him with equal skill. Itachi, smarter than all the other ninjas, had watched the final battle with the Kyuubi from afar, and knew that 4th had not died. Itachi saught out the 4th, looking to perfect his skills at last. The 4th returned to Konoha secretly with some of these new allies and recruited Orochimaru, who he knew to have an ambition as ruthless as his own newfound one. Then he formed a group, Akatsuki with these ten members.

Then one day after Orochimaru had betrayed them for his own ends, the 4th had an epiphany. He had heard that the Hidden Village of the Sand had a young lad who also had one of the many demons sealed within him. The youth was incredibly powerful, and the 4th knew that he and the other members of Akatsuki could take that power for themselves. For the next 6 years, they waited and researched where the Jinchuuriki were and the rest of the demons could be found. Then...they began to strike.

(This scenario has been forged around ideas loosely presented in the manga, Superb and flawless conjecture, logical reasoning, and by the fact that a silhouette can definitively prove someone's identity, especially when drawn with pen and ink.)

(That, and a friend of mine's cousin's teacher's sister's best friend who is living in Japan's husband's best friend's daughter totally overheard Kishimoto talking to a friend at a family restaurant about what is going to happen next.)

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Originally Posted by zio

The 4Th didn't die he become leader of the Akatsuki. You can see by reading the manga.

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http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/5...sukiwm9.th.png

Nice try, zio, but that's been floating around for a long time.

http://www.absoluteanime.com/naruto/4th_hokage.htm

interesting piece...i guess.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

Okay, let me try this one...

In the terrible battle fighting the Kyuubi, the 4th, in an effort to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto, fell into a battle of wills with the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi, being a Nine-tailed demon, began to attempt to corrupt the 4th with his evil chakra. Right before he lost their battle of wills, the 4th died sealing the Kyuubi into Naruto...or so we thought!

We all know the healing ability of Naruto is directly connected to the Kyuubi's chakra, after all, if he dies, it dies. It has a reason to protect Naruto. The 4th has perfect control over his chakra, since that's the basis of the Rasengan. What really happened was the 4th appeared to die, and for a time he probably did. But, his will lived on seconds longer than his body, and began to control the Kyuubi's chakra in an effort to heal himself.

However, using the Kyuubi's evil chakra corrupted the 4th further, and its evil will merged with his own. He rose back from near death and ran deep into the forests of the Fire Country. There, he began to hone his skills and began gathering others around him with equal skill. Itachi, smarter than all the other ninjas, had watched the final battle with the Kyuubi from afar, and knew that 4th had not died. Itachi saught out the 4th, looking to perfect his skills at last. The 4th returned to Konoha secretly with some of these new allies and recruited Orochimaru, who he knew to have an ambition as ruthless as his own newfound one. Then he formed a group, Akatsuki with these ten members.

Then one day after Orochimaru had betrayed them for his own ends, the 4th had an epiphany. He had heard that the Hidden Village of the Sand had a young lad who also had one of the many demons sealed within him. The youth was incredibly powerful, and the 4th knew that he and the other members of Akatsuki could take that power for themselves. For the next 6 years, they waited and researched where the Jinchuuriki were and the rest of the demons could be found. Then...they began to strike.

(This scenario has been forged around ideas loosely presented in the manga, Superb and flawless conjecture, logical reasoning, and by the fact that a silhouette can definitively prove someone's identity, especially when drawn with pen and ink.)

(That, and a friend of mine's cousin's teacher's sister's best friend who is living in Japan's husband's best friend's daughter totally overheard Kishimoto talking to a friend at a family restaurant about what is going to happen next.)

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Reminds me of the piece I did theorizing the end of Naruto.

Wouldn't they have retrieved his body for the funeral? If there was no body then they would be like "Yeah, everyone assumes the fourth is dead but his body was never found"

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Originally Posted by Zhan

Wouldn't they have retrieved his body for the funeral? If there was no body then they would be like "Yeah, everyone assumes the fourth is dead but his body was never found"

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Are you, perhaps, implying a case of "Sandaime Kazekage" here?

Maybe the forth got possesed by Kyuubi right before he sealed him away. While Kyuubi gave the forth life force with his chakra. Therefore, now we've got an evil 4th who is Kyuubi's minion on the lose, trying to free kyuubi. Sharingan, Uchihaa.. kyuubi's greatest threat was killed because the 4th ordered Itachi to do it. o.o

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Originally Posted by Death BOO Z

the case of learnning the sealing jutsu is really a stupid argument, if you say that the 3rd couldn't have learned it before the 4th died, you might as well say that the 4th couldn't have learned it without his master dying to explain the jutsu...

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I'm still curious how the Third learned Shiki Fuujin from the Fourth... I guess he just told Sandaime the seal sequence and explained how to release the chakra to activate it, but you'd still think there would be a learning curve. Maybe he's just that good to activate it the very first time.