Log Horizon

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Now, what´s fuck-stupid is that Rundel sacrificed himself to save Touya. Some silly pride here, since he should know that real adventurers revive after being killed (and he doesn´t know of the memory loss thing). Touya dying here would have been an inconvience, nothing more.

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It would have been a huge inconvenience. Touya was the only tank in the group, no in fact the only melee fighter. The rest were pretty much spell casters capable of light fighting at best, such as Izusu. Their tactics would have been ruined without Touya, despite Rudy acting like a tank every now and then. Any enemy heavier than cannon fodder would have made short work of them, or in fact any enemies in bigger numbers even if they were weak, since Rudy couldn't take hits like Touya.

Rudy being an NPC is weird

you can't add him to your f-list, but you can join a group with him
you can use telepathy to tell him things (adventurer ability?)
he can level up just like everyone else
he uses a cooldown system (knowingly)

his character is not following the rules of the game for sure and I don't like the "everything has changed after the apocalypse" development, its the perfect excuse for ass-pulling... and I hate that

its not that I don't like it though.. its just weird..

if NPC can join your group, I'd definitively go and try to convince more powerfull ones to join me :D
or I could switch sides.. that could work too. there have always been boss encounters which I'd rather not have killed.

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

you can't add him to your f-list, but you can join a group with him

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What's the group? Isn't it something they just decided verbally?

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

you can use telepathy to tell him things (adventurer ability?)

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No, you can't. The telepathy is basically using the interface to make an internal phone call to somebody on your friend list. Rudy can't be on a friend list -> no telepathy.

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

he can level up just like everyone else
he uses a cooldown system (knowingly)

his character is not following the rules of the game for sure and I don't like the "everything has changed after the apocalypse" development, its the perfect excuse for ass-pulling... and I hate that

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I've been advocating for a while a theory where the players aren't that different from the NPCs, or rather the NPCs not so different from the players. They have had a health bar from the beginning, for example, and the NPC mage that contacted Shiroe summoned those windows that looked like they belonged to a game interface. In my opinion it makes sense the NPCs develop in the same way as the players. I don't see the need for redundant experience/skill systems.

From what I can tell those Izumo Knights are much stronger than the average player. Sure, they were 'designed' to be that way but that doesn't mean normal NPC's can't become pseudo adventurers and become just as if not stronger.

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What's the group? Isn't it something they just decided verbally?

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I don't think so, that would be rather absurd.
given the fact how minorin manages the status of each player

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No, you can't.

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but they are doing it. ~ every second episode

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I've been advocating for a while a theory where the players aren't that different from the NPCs, or rather the NPCs not so different from the players.

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its weird for NPCs to know "game rules" like a cooldown or level-up system... or even a health bar, especially since they don't know anything about adventurers and they are an enigma to them
the first ~12 episodes made sure of that.

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Originally Posted by Krayz33

its weird for NPCs to know "game rules" like a cooldown or level-up system... or even a health bar, especially since they don't know anything about adventurers and they are an enigma to them
the first ~12 episodes made sure of that

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That is very true, which was why my initial stance was that NPCs shouldn't be able to level up and learn spells like adventurers could, but instead be automatically granted spell access through promotions and game-built systems. Everything's kind of blurred now.

I didn't think that NPCs could use a HUD interface like humans could. Now I'm not quite sure. Rudy's apparently got one anyway, but they don't really have to use it. With all tasks being available motion-based, it's just a stats monitor now.

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

I don't think so, that would be rather absurd.
given the fact how minorin manages the status of each player

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I think that's more like in a regular game, where you can select players or NPCs as targets for healing spells and such. It doesn't seem to me like the players have everybody's health bars visible all the time, either. I imagine that would get quite distracting. The field monitors or operators, or whatever they are talking about, seem to open a bunch of windows to monitor the group's status. But it could be that they just select the players (or NPCs) nearby for that.

But then again, I suppose it could be possible to add whoever you want in a group. It would be a jolly function in an MMO, even if it had no other purpose but to be able to quickly open those windows or send a message to everybody. However, I'm not so sure that's enough for telepathy. In a more prominent scenes they have stated you can only make a phone call to people who you have on your friend list. Rudy clearly didn't qualify for that. I'm afraid I don't remember scenes where they would have talked to Rudy telepathically, either, but that could be because I generally find the kids so boring I only watch their struggles with half a brain. When I rewatched the show, I kept skipping their scenes...

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Originally Posted by Buffalobiian

That is very true, which was why my initial stance was that NPCs shouldn't be able to level up and learn spells like adventurers could, but instead be automatically granted spell access through promotions and game-built systems. Everything's kind of blurred now.

I didn't think that NPCs could use a HUD interface like humans could. Now I'm not quite sure. Rudy's apparently got one anyway, but they don't really have to use it. With all tasks being available motion-based, it's just a stats monitor now.

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Have we seen him using status menu even once?
have we heard him communicating with someone else via telepathy?

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Originally Posted by Xelbair

Have we seen him using status menu even once?
have we heard him communicating with someone else via telepathy?

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We haven't seen him use the status menu. I assume he had something like that since he was explaining things about Orb of Lava being his most powerful spell and it having a cast/cool-down of 2/18 seconds. Given that he didn't have a pocket-watch, I assumed he had something to monitor his spells with. It's not fact though.

As for telepathy, in the latest episode 10:00minutes in, Minori tells Rudy via telepathy to keep his output down, and he answers back! She's at least 300m away.

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Originally Posted by Buffalobiian

As for telepathy, in the latest episode 10:00minutes in, Minori tells Rudy via telepathy to keep his output down, and he answers back! She's at least 300m away.

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Hmm... Now that I try to remember back to it, something like that indeed happened. I think this story's consistency isn't quite perfect and the author makes small mistakes like that. Unless I misjudged and KrayZ33 is correct: The groups are a full game entity of their own, following their own, separate rules, for example allowing telepathy different from the usual player-player contact list communication. But even so it would be quite strange an NPC could be added to such a group list yet not on the friend list.

The latest ep had Shiroe and the merchant guild dude go over the larger squad tactics and their talk surely left me with an impression it was important that each group had somebody (the squad leader?) who had a contact in the headquarters, plus some members also had friends in other squads they could communicate with. Otherwise they couldn't easily coordinate the actions of the whole army.

I can't remember but did Rudy ever start a telepathic link with another or was he always on the receiving end? If the latter than it means that the people of the land don't have that ability and need a adventurer to start the link.

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Originally Posted by Xelbair

Have we seen him using status menu even once?
have we heard him communicating with someone else via telepathy?

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He knows his own level somehow too. Or is damn good at bluffing it.

I think Rudy has some major advantages in the "pretending to be an adventurer" department by being a mage. We've seen other mages use "window" magic, ones that are definitely NPCs. It probably wouldn't be as easy to fool other people if he was a guardian class or DPS class like Naotsugu or Akatsuki.

Rudy definitely spent a lot of time in Akiba. He would have heard the real players talk about all kinds of incomprehensible things. Being a good actor, he would copy the mannerism, thinking it would take him closer to being an adventurer, despite only had a vague idea of what's going on. Thus, he would have spoken about levels and such even if they were only his own estimates.

I haven't played any MMORPGs so I wouldn't really know, but wouldn't they also have NPCs giving quests where you have to be of a certain level to qualify? Maybe there would also be merchants whose wares would partially depend on the players' level. If that was the case in Elder Tales, then great many NPCs would know of levels. It would be as natural to them as talking about age in years.

I don't really see a problem, I mean there are mmos out there where you can add certain npcs to your party, not to mention that Shiroe stretched and emphasized that this isn't the Elder Tales that they knew and that they're not npcs. Also I don't think I've ever played an mmo where you have to be friends in order to add someone to the party.

As for Rudy knowing own skills, how is that weird? The other mage pulled out a ton of windows when explaining the different kinds of magic etc to Shiroe so it seems reasonable that other people of the land can do the same. It's also the most logical conclusion if you think about food, they've stated that food all taste the same when cooked through the menu and we know from their trip to the castle in Eastel when they talked about their chefs that they've started cooking without the menu since it taste differently. Marie talked about the people of the land also wanting to eat good food, so someone has to cook food for the people of the land before all of this, so how did all of them cook before when food all tasted the same if not through the menu?

As for the telepathy in the latest episode my guess is that they're talking through party chat, if Rudy is already in the party he should automatically get connected. After all Minori talks to most of her party and since we don't see her calling each and every member one by one when she has something to say the logical explanation would be a party chat, it'd be very impractical otherwise.

As for levels, monsters have levels why can't npcs? I don't know if I'm just making stuff up now but for some reason I remember them talking about how npcs can't level up to be as strong as adventures so that their level cap is lower than adventures, take it with a big grain of salt as I can't remember where they said it and I don't feel like rewatching every episode right now.

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Originally Posted by fireheart

As for levels, monsters have levels why can't npcs? I don't know if I'm just making stuff up now but for some reason I remember them talking about how npcs can't level up to be as strong as adventures so that their level cap is lower than adventures, take it with a big grain of salt as I can't remember where they said it and I don't feel like rewatching every episode right now.

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It wouldn't even matter if they had talked about such a thing because it's incorrect anyway: the named knights did exist and they were apparently very tough, and on the other hand, like you said yourself, this isn't the same game anymore. The adventures knew next to nothing about NPCs anyway (and vice versa), so they were hardly the best experts to ponder about the NPCs' potential in this new environment.

The party vs friend list difference actually makes a lot of sense.

Episode 20 - HS




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Well, damn. Just when it finally started for real, the action also ended already. It looks like this never was much of an action show on the most basic level. I suppose all the politics, conspiracy, and other such episodes should have revealed that, but I kept hoping against all odds. At least we got a few scenes of Crusty in bloodlust and the princess staring at him in wonder. Watching those two is one of the best parts of this show, so I hope we will still see plenty of them, now coloured with the princess knowing what he's really like.

While I'd have liked to see more action, and especially fights that had required some effort, it ought to be interesting to see how the petty nobles will now react as well.

Shiroe really was an archmage to pull off such a spell as his first custom spell.

Not sure what that contract means for the future. I´m a bit confused about what the limits of these contracts is. "By signing this contract, Rundle Haus Code will be granted invincibility". Would that work? Or what is it that Shiroe can make happen?

The lack of action sucks, yes. We need a return of PvP-battles, because nothing else seems to require any effort by these high level-adventurers. Maybe once everyone finds out about the memory loss from "dying", PvP will retain some of its meaning to the "players". We´re desperately in need for antagonists, true villains.

My biggest hope is that, despite what we know so far, enemies are revealed to not to be what they seemed to be in the past game, too. Like, being way more intelligent, having feelings, and eco-structure, social behavior and such. Thus making it morally difficult to keep slaying them.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

"By signing this contract, Rundle Haus Code will be granted invincibility". Would that work? Or what is it that Shiroe can make happen?

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But invincibility doesn't exist in their world, so for a contract to grant that someone would have to invent invincibility first. What Shiroe did was force a class change (or in this case, grant a sub-class), which was more within the realms of possibility.

I really liked this episode, it's cool how they're exploring this world and finding new ways to make it work