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That isn't the point Uchiha Barles, that was the past, with hard work a dropout can surpass a genius, thats the point I don't think he would be subpar to many if any at all that were his level. Even if they put as much work into it. Even more so with his rare ability to open many gates.
Alright, consider potential to be something like a cup. An 8 ounce cup can only hold 8 ounces at max, while a 12 ounce cup can hold more at max. no matter how much water you pour into the 8 ounce cup, it will only ever be able to hold 8 ounces, which will forever be less than the 12 ounce max of the second cup.
Now, they clearly stated in the anime that rock lee was just an inferior specimen. He can't do ninjutsu, he can't do genjutsu, and his taijutsu was subpar (that's right, I said WAS). Now, look at sasuke. Totally stole rock's taijutsu with his eyes. Didn't even get to see him in action all that much. It took him a month to get down what rock lee took years to master. What happens if Sasuke trained only taijutsu for as long as rock lee did? I'll tell you. Sasuke would destroy him. Rock is the 8 ounce cup, while Sasuke is the 12 ounce (maybe even 32 ounce compared to Rock). As far as the other ninjas are concerned, there really isn't much to compare them to Rock in terms of mastering something given the same amount of effort (or less effort as in the example just given). However, the anime did say that he in general, was below average. Sakura is average *shivers*
Here's where Rock gets his break. I'm making this assumption because the anime seems to emulate real life in it's principles. Very few, if any ninja ever reach they're full potential, for lack of will, effort, opportunity, or any combination of the three. Rock Lee trains so much harder than anyone else, thus using more of his potential. If others don't train to use more of their potential, Rock may just end up having more power to access than they do. To relate that to the cup, what does it matter if your cup can hold 12 ounces of juice if you only fill it up with 4, while the guy with the 8 ounce cup fills it with 7 ounces of juice? He's still got more juice than you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
average is middleground between the best and the worst
it couldnt be "average" to have perfect chakra efficiency unless EVERYONE has perfect chakra efficiency
also i dont know if potential applies to physical strength or ability to use jutsus or what......naruto could have immense chakra potential, but does that mean that he would have immense potential at building up his speed?
putting that aside though, i would say potential in the sense you're using would work more as a flask thats shaped like a cone where the pointed side is the bottom and the opening at the top is the largest part.....and "level" being the height of the liquid. the more thats being put in, the more that it takes to get even higher. in this scenario, sasuke would have a narrower cone shape while lee's would be wider....however both would be at the same height. It would just take sasuke less effort and time to reach those higher levels.
the reason i would say this over your example is this: remember the weights lee was wearing in the prelims? If lee had a limit to how far he can go, then you could say that there is a certain amount of weight he can strap to his legs that would match the limit of his potential, and that he would never be able to withstand even a lb more.
sorry, i just felt the need to contribute [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
RESPONSE TO BELOW: wow jessper.....are you hoping to confuse the other members to win your argument? wayyy too many verbs and adjectives in a single sentence
Your kidding right? Thats like saying a 15 year old sprinter became as fast at running as a gold medal winning 500 meter runner and because the 15 year old can sprint as fast as the other guy runs he could run as good as the medal winner if he had focused on doing 500 meter runs. Also, would Sasuke obviously be able to open 5 gates?Quote:
Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
Alright, consider potential to be something like a cup. An 8 ounce cup can only hold 8 ounces at max, while a 12 ounce cup can hold more at max. no matter how much water you pour into the 8 ounce cup, it will only ever be able to hold 8 ounces, which will forever be less than the 12 ounce max of the second cup.
Now, they clearly stated in the anime that rock lee was just an inferior specimen. He can't do ninjutsu, he can't do genjutsu, and his taijutsu was subpar (that's right, I said WAS). Now, look at sasuke. Totally stole rock's taijutsu with his eyes. Didn't even get to see him in action all that much. It took him a month to get down what rock lee took years to master. What happens if Sasuke trained only taijutsu for as long as rock lee did? I'll tell you. Sasuke would destroy him. Rock is the 8 ounce cup, while Sasuke is the 12 ounce (maybe even 32 ounce compared to Rock). As far as the other ninjas are concerned, there really isn't much to compare them to Rock in terms of mastering something given the same amount of effort (or less effort as in the example just given). However, the anime did say that he in general, was below average. Sakura is average *shivers*
Here's where Rock gets his break. I'm making this assumption because the anime seems to emulate real life in it's principles. Very few, if any ninja ever reach they're full potential, for lack of will, effort, opportunity, or any combination of the three. Rock Lee trains so much harder than anyone else, thus using more of his potential. If others don't train to use more of their potential, Rock may just end up having more power to access than they do. To relate that to the cup, what does it matter if your cup can hold 12 ounces of juice if you only fill it up with 4, while the guy with the 8 ounce cup fills it with 7 ounces of juice? He's still got more juice than you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
Never apologize for a well thought out argument [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] I'll try to answer this in sections cuz you covered a lot of ground.
First, the potential thing. Rock Lee will never, ever be able to use ninjutsu or genjutsu. If you consider the ninja's potential as the sum of their max abilities in ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu, then the example becomes more like my cup example, unless Rock Lee's taijutsu potential is so incredibly awesome that it surpases the potential of most normal ninjas (I doubt that). Plus, it was already stated that rock's taijutsu was subpar. Who knows what it says for his potential though, because I'm not sure if they meant that it was subpar at the time, or in general. The only way your example would fit better is if you limit it to taijutsu alone. Even then, the rates at which they advance can easily be interpreted as potentials in your example (not mine).
About the weights rock was wearing: Sure rock has a weight limit to how much he can carry before he kills himself. He's probably even stronger than sasuke. But that's not important. The potential considering here is not just physical strenght, but all things important to a ninja. Even limiting it to taijutsu, strenght is just one factor that affects it. There's speed, awareness, reflexes, etc. How those things interact is what determines potential. If someone can combine all those characteristics to greater effect than someone #2 can, someone #1 has greater potential.
You're totally right about Sakura.
EDIT TO JESPER: You said "Your kidding right? Thats like saying a 15 year old sprinter became as fast at running as a gold medal winning 500 meter runner and because the 15 year old can sprint as fast as the other guy runs he could run as good as the medal winner if he had focused on doing 500 meter runs. Also, would Sasuke obviously be able to open 5 gates? "
No. I'm not kidding. Sasuke learned the bulk of Lee's taijutsu in a month. So yeah, that's ALMOST what I'm saying, because that's ALMOST exactly what happened, minus the fact that the difference between Sasuke and Rock Lee really wasn't as great as the difference between the people in your example.
No, it is not obvious that Sasuke can can open 5 gates like Rock Lee, depends on his taijutsu potential. But, what is apparent, is that Sasuke would be better at taijutsu in general (even if he can't master the same techniques) than rock lee would given the same time training, and the same focus in taijutsu training.
whether its potential of just taijutsu or all 3 doesnt factor into it.....as long as lee has SOMETHING that he can work on to improve, then he has potential. I know that there's a limit until the skin just rips off his body, but im basing this off of anime physics/biology, not real physics/biology [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
besides, just as skin gets callous where it is exposed to extreme amounts of friction frequently, im sure his body would slowly adjust and heal in ways that would prepare it for the extreme amounts of weights that for someone who isnt prepared could have the flesh ripped right off.....granted at this point getting your potential any higher would require enough time that your body would probably end up aging and weakening throughout this process.....but this just means that the limit in his potential is ACTUALLY the amount of seconds in his life that he is given to work with
Sure he has potential, just not more than most. For rock lee to be able to be as good as other ninjas, he has to make his taijutsu so strong that it makes up for their ninjutsu and genjutsu. To use what you said, eventually, this will shorten his seconds on earth, because there's only so much you can subject your body to before it begins deteriorate and die. In my opinion, because of the toll chakra use and the gate opening thinggie takes on the body, the anime physics/biology does account for this. Now, if we're looking at potential as the amount of seconds he has to work with, Rock Lee would have to begin dipping in his reserve pool (old age seconds?) before other ninjas of similar current strenght would. Meaning, he'd die sooner, which gets back to him having less potential. This is of course assuming that everyone is right about rock lee, and not missing something about him that causes him to be far more than just another punk, something like an imortal body...
The problem here is your wrong, Sasuke became able to move quite fast similar to Lee in one month, that doesn't involve taijutsu just ability to sprint, also as it was said Sasuke's artifical and overly fast training to acheive those speeds limited his stamina so he wouldn't be able to do it nearly as long as Lee so he was subpar in this respect(this all ties into my example...). On top of that, Lee's ability to open gates should be a factor of his potential.Quote:
Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
No. I'm not kidding. Sasuke learned the bulk of Lee's taijutsu in a month. So yeah, that's ALMOST what I'm saying, because that's ALMOST exactly what happened, minus the fact that the difference between Sasuke and Rock Lee really wasn't as great as the difference between the people in your example.
No, it is not obvious that Sasuke can can open 5 gates like Rock Lee, depends on his taijutsu potential. But, what is apparent, is that Sasuke would be better at taijutsu in general (even if he can't master the same techniques) than rock lee would given the same time training, and the same focus in taijutsu training.
Aone/Anbu version of episode 67, the one that's combined with 68, at around 12:37 in the video, Gai says: "He's as fast as Lee's normal speed." That covers the speed part. Then, right afterwards, Rock says: "His moves overlap with my...hand-to-hand combat style." Listen closely and you'll hear him say taijutsu while the subtibles are up. There you have it. He knows Lee's taijutsu. Stances, attacks, defenses, transitions, feints, you know, like I said, the bulk of his taijutsu. I don't know if he knows the konoha whirlwind attack (wouldn't be surprised if he did), or either one of the lotus attacks (he probably doesn't because you neeed to open the gates for that).
At around 15:49, Lee then says: "It took me many years to obtain that speed...And...And you obtained it in only a month." And there you go. What it took Lee to achieve in many years to get, it took Sasuke a month to get.
The stamina, you're right, his body is weaker than Lee's and he probably would have to train for some time to get a body strong enough to use that speed with as little effort as Lee does. Ok, have him run around in some weights for a about a year. Still less time than Lee. That'll never happen though, because Sasuke doesn't need to have that happen, unlike Lee. HE HAS NINJUTSU AND GENJUTSU HE CAN DRAW POWER FROM.
Lee's ability to open the gates is something that his potential allows for. But that speaks little of overall potential for everyone because of the crazy things we've seen even other genin do, like neiji. If neiji seals Rock's tenketsus?, then the gates opening this is useless if not impossible.
There you have it. Your argument depended upon me being wrong about Sasuke learning rock's taijutsu. I wasn't wrong.
Your example is unfair though in the fact that Sasuke fought Lee while using the Sharingan. This didn't start as a arguement that Sasuke could get to the same level as Lee (taijutsu wise) but that anyone could if they put in as much work so the exceptional Sharingan user has an advantage that would allow him to learn the Taijutsu way faster than anyone else so his learning Lee's Taijutsu in a month is only because his bloodlimit allows him to learn moves instantly. We won't really know if Sasuke could achieve the same stamina via using weights for a year because everyone's body is different(except some peoples insanly ugly eyebrows).
I didn't say that Sasuke wasn't able to run as fast as Lee, he was but for a limited time were as Lee would have no problem(before the incident...) running that fast for longer periods of time.
So yes, Sasuke may be able to be just as good as Lee at Taijutsu but his Sharingan (chance to have a Sharingan... 3 in a billion [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] ) allows that. However I still doubt anyone (minus the 3 sharingan users) could have achieved the same level as Lee in that time.
LOL, my bad [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]Quote:
RESPONSE TO BELOW: wow jessper.....are you hoping to confuse the other members to win your argument? wayyy too many verbs and adjectives in a single sentence
Sorry for limiting the discussion to Sasuke. The argument probably went in that direction because there's really no one else to compare to. But, do you honestly think, that Lee, with his taijutsu alone, can surpass most normal ninjas who spend as much time training as lee does, even if they're training all three of their branches? If that's true, then Lee is not a dropout, a loser, or below average. He's exceptional if that's the case. You realize that complete wipes the purpose of his character right? If his taijutsu is just that exceptional that he'll surpass a normal ninja that trains as much, he's just another naruto, or another sasuke. Rock's ability is supposed to be that despite him being inferior, his prodigious efforts negate that, putting him on par with the best. But if you take a superior specimen (superior to Lee) that puts in an equally amazing amount of effort, he's supposed to be able to surpass Lee. If that's not the case, then Lee is not normal, he's a genius as defined in the anime (genetic freak?). Thus, making the effort surpasses genius point null.
No, I don't think he would be as good as someone that trained as often as him doing all 3, but his resolve factored into it alot, even when he thought he was worthless he kept going (though this was in part gai) and got to the point where I belive he could have beat Neji. Plus he could still be a drop out even if he was able to surpass everyone because that just means he was awful at school =)Quote:
Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
Sorry for limiting the discussion to Sasuke. The argument probably went in that direction because there's really no one else to compare to. But, do you honestly think, that Lee, with his taijutsu alone, can surpass most normal ninjas who spend as much time training as lee does, even if they're training all three of their branches? If that's true, then Lee is not a dropout, a loser, or below average. He's exceptional if that's the case. You realize that complete wipes the purpose of his character right? If his taijutsu is just that exceptional that he'll surpass a normal ninja that trains as much, he's just another naruto, or another sasuke. Rock's ability is supposed to be that despite him being inferior, his prodigious efforts negate that, putting him on par with the best. But if you take a superior specimen (superior to Lee) that puts in an equally amazing amount of effort, he's supposed to be able to surpass Lee. If that's not the case, then Lee is not normal, he's a genius as defined in the anime (genetic freak?). Thus, making the effort surpasses genius point null.
Also Lee IS a Genius, of hard work =P
Edit: oops, fixed that vv
Oh, so you're NOT arguing that he would be as good as someone who trained as often? Well then, there's no argument is there? Nice not arguing with you. *scratches head* [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
how fast you can learn something doesnt have as much to do with potential as it would for being a genius vs hard worker though
being uchiha, sasuke can naturally develop abilities sooner than most other characters could......just like how he was able to perform fire jutsus while most ninjas cant do that until they are chuunin or jounin
im sure you'd all agree with me in saying that naruto has the most potential out of everyone, but does that mean that he could reach lee's speed of taijutsu in a shorter amount of time than sasuke?
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying about "how fast you can learn something doesnt have as much to do with potential as it would for being a genius vs hard worker though". But, a couple of things. I think genius as used in reference to people with a bloodline limit refers to their clan's abilities, not their overall aptitude at learning something. About Naruto learning the speed faster than Sasuke, I think he might, because his body is already stronger, and he has more stamina. That is, unless Sasuke used the sharingan to learn the speed, but I got the impression that he used it only for the taijutsu.
just an update for you guys...potential is how much better they can become. it doesnt have to do with "how amazing they are now" so much as it has to do with "how much more amazing can they get." saying that...i think the little kids or any of the female characters have the greatist potential. sorry mia, but that includes sakura. she could get a lot better...if the anime lets her.
my defence for that is this: lets use neji, and hinata as examples. (these numbers are completly made up...im not saying that this is their current level...this is only an example) lets say neji is a 8 out of 16, and Hinata is a 4 out of 16 (the 1st numbers being their current abilty level, and the 2nd being the ability the could reach)...neji's potential is 8, while Hinata's potential is 12...therefore Hinata has a higher potential.
the number one flaw of this thread/question is the fact that we dont know how good any of the characters will get. thats just how this anime is. therefore, we cant say who has the most potential...we can only guess bassed on what the anime hints at. who knows...maybe in the next episode, sakura reveals that she can blow up the world at will, using her amazing new ability:"Wrath of Sakura!!". then i believe she went from one of the weakest characters to one of the mose powerful, meaning she had the most potential. just showing you that theres no way of knowing who has the greatest potential untill its all over. and when that time comes, it wont be potential anymore, it would be current skill level. See the flaw?
aside from that, its fun to guess, and argue...just keep ^that^ in mind.
EDIT: lol, i wonder how many people took 1 look at my post and said "screw that...im not gonna read all that" ...sorry =/ i'm not sure how i could shorten it, so i just posted it...
Naruto
Lee probably got his speed in a month just like Sasuke.
He wasn't able to take off his weights because it wasn't allowed so maybe he didn't realize he got his speed in a month.
and it never said anywhere that opening gates depend on the person's taijutsu potential... so Rock Lee IS A GENIUS, says by KAKASHI. and KAKASHI is ALWAYS right!!!!
agree
Lee is a genius, eventhough he might not be aware of it
why argue, everybody knows that naruto got the most potential becuase he is the main character he will never lose a fight and will be the strongest in the end.
just to argue a little. sasuke is nowhere near lee yet. sasuke can uphold the speed in maybe 1 or 2 minutes at max rock can do it for 20 - 30 minutes. so sasuke grasped the speed and tecnique in a month but the stamina to do it is far, far away. and who said lee didnt grasp the speed and tecnique in a month we dont know that.