Well, if he can just annihilate the army like it was suggested in the latest episode, it sure as hell makes you think whether or not he could simply stop the army without killing (all of) them.
Well, if he can just annihilate the army like it was suggested in the latest episode, it sure as hell makes you think whether or not he could simply stop the army without killing (all of) them.
I don't see how that's going to help him. In order to become a Demon Lord, he has to consume 10k human souls. And they've established that, without a soul, you're just a mindless monster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
"Great Sage, how can I use 10k human souls to become a Demon Lord and then return their souls so that they don't die"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
"Calculating, it is possible. Chances are 1%."
And we all know what that 1% means.
Bleh, that could totally happen...
Milim story was nice. I didn't remember it at all. And now we can connect the dots beetween Milim and Rimuru: Verdora.
99.9% chance Verdora is Milim's little dragon.
Or maybe he will just kill 10k people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
And revive them as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
... I said that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff
An artificial heart is no soul.
Rimuru clones many things. Might as well add Souls to the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
I'm saying no revival. Just kill them all permanently. They are enemy soldiers.
One thing is what we want, the other is how this show has tried to solve problems so far... particularly when you have the perfect Deus Ex Machina in the Great Sage.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
The Shion death was a highlight for me, as I was one of those 'death mongers' hoping for more fallout from the attack. It was even handled well and they let the feeling hang for just long enough that it wasn't totally undone by the convenient fairy tale resurrection plot device. Would I have preferred the death to be permanent or perhaps a week to stew on it before resurrection was on the table? Yes. Did Slime Isekai really need to give me that after the relative light heartedness and tone its has been riding since the beginning of season one? No; not really. This is in line with the tone of the story so far, and I can't fault it for that.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw the obvious presented solution of killing 20k+ combatants divorced from the leadership that caused the attack to be a bit inhumane and await the more reasonable plan that will no doubt satisfy and save the largest contingent of friendlies and neutrals.
It would trip my mind out though, if by some narrative miracle Gobzo was resurrected but Shion not due to the chance thing. What if he inherited her will or something and became a (more) major character? Not gonna happen of course, but I'm still interested in what comes next.
Or her dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by David75
One thing about Veldora, have we ever learned if he was some sort of Demon Lord or not? He seems more feared than Demon Lords from what I can recall throughout the series. So curious if he's one or not, and if he's not why not? Is it a choice thing? A requirements thing?
Well they said you have to take 10k souls to become a Demon Lord, so maybe he just never did that.
From Milim story we learn her dragon pet was sealed after reviving souless and rampaging/destroying cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
So Verdora might be the one
Milim got promoted instead ? Again only if Verdora is her dragon pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Maybe. But Veldora doesn't come off as soulless. Or at all rampagey.Quote:
Originally Posted by David75
Well, there's a reason for him being sealed... unless it was preemptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Yeah but, like, a souless rampaging beast isn't going to suddenly become a civilized rational being because you lock it in a cave, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
I just find that so dumb on a fundamental level: why would evolving to demon lord status revive people around you one single time? Where is the relation between both? And why can't it be done multiple times whenever you have enough souls? It's such an arbitrary bonus :/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Just an idea. Verdora has been in the cave for so long and is so powerful... so maybe his soul has appeared overtime ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
The barrier and soul dispersion ideas let me think the soul works like magicules. Maybe magicule arrangement ?
So with lots of magicules, times and boredom, you can finetune yourself an arrangement ?
I know, juste a silly idea. I might be totally wrong and that baby dragon was something else.
Well the story was about Milim and it happened spontaneously, if I got the story right.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Rimuru will make it happen and has barriers to prevent soul scatering. Not the same conditions. And MC Deus Ex....
Wasn't Veldora sealed by a human hero fairly recently? Nobody would even remember him anymore if it had been like centuries ago. But I don't remember the beginning of the whole series too well anymore.
Forgot about timelines... it was around 300 years for Veldora ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
I don't remember an era for the story we've just been told and don't remember about Milim age/era. Only that she's been a DL for a very long time, not a very precise and useful memory here :)
Milim didn't seal Veladora. Shizu's master did. Discussed waaaaaaay back between Rimuru and Veladora. Or Rimuru and Shizu.
Milim is much, much older.
It's not that becoming a demon lord would revive people in and of itself. Great Sage calculated that the chances of what Eren is describing go up if the one performing it is a demon lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Missed the "souless" part you guys were mentioning. Thought you were replying to something else.
Well, from Milim's story it looked more like reanimation than reviving. There has been no mention of it being one single time, but if it is, maybe it has to do with the level of energy they gain or they expel as they transform into Demon Lord and how it affects their surroundings as they do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Did they say one single time? I just assumed Demon Lords had the ability to revive their monster minions. Which would be in keeping with a JRPG world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
33
---
Yeeeees! Feed on their souls!
Fucking tease of an episode, the only thing I really hate about this series is the pace.
That said, looks like they're all decided on annihilation. Now I have to wonder if he'll stop at the 10,000 he needs or will go for the full 20,000 that are on their way. Also, not sure why he's wearing the suppression mask.
I mean, why stop at half? Doesn't make much sense at that point.
Hostages? To leave witnesses of his power? To show he doesn't need to kill more than he requires, demonstrating that he can be as vicious and reasonable as the situation calls for?Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I can think of a number of reasons, but hopefully he kills them all and that means he becomes an even greater Demon Lord for it.
Also, I thought Clayman was already a Demon Lord. Is he trying to become a...double Demon Lord?
Great Sage kind of explained this the previous episode. Rimuru qualified as a Demon Lord Seed after consuming the Orc Lord, who was also being prepped into becoming a Demon Lord Seed.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Anyone strong enough or with territory can call themselves a demon lord, the weak douchebag in the plague mask messing with the Orc Lord called himself one, right before he got eaten.
But whatever this does is different somehow. A "true Demon Lord."
Presumably, Clayman is a Demon Lord Seed already as well, or maybe just below. Either way, I guess he somehow hasn't killed enough personally, or killed enough at once. He's a manipulator, making others like Myulan do his dirty work. Rimuru always faces threats head on. Maybe that's the difference.
Then the writer should have come up with a better name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
You don't need hostages if you can kill 20,000 soldiers, especially not low value grunts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Killing all those soldiers is already enough proof of his power, even without witnesses, since he made a whole army vanish.
Now, if he came out and explained to the remaining soldiers that he only killed just enough to revive his dead allies, I can understand why he would spare them for the below reason:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Whether it's good or bad decision, doesn't mean the option isn't there if that's the path he wants to take. And it's not the same thing having first hand accounts than just rumors, also hostages can be used in negotiations if desired... that kingdom is not the only one that has stakes in this. He said it himself, he hasn't resigned from forming friendly relationships with human countries, he's balancing on a very thin line as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I still dont believe Rimuru will kill those soldiers. I hope he does, but this has been the most vanilla isekai so far, and suddenly it goes full-Overlord? Eh.
He probably "kills" them, levels up with their souls, but then returns their souls to their bodies and nobody dies. Aka the most lamest outcome.
I wouldn't call it "full Overlord" if he kills them all though.
These two countries attacked Tempest under a false pretense, and are actively invading the monsters to steal their territory and to protect their trade monopoly. In Overlord, they were always the aggressor except in like...one instance and that was a single party of adventurers.
If he only kills half then that leaves the other half lying around for Clayman to swoop in. It doesn't sound like Rimuru wants that either.
What a useless episode. It was nothing but talk and flashbacks, no action whatsoever, of any kind. Even the talk was partially stuff we already knew. I guess the event will be crucial for Rimuru, to rise to the status of a demon lord, but at the end of the day, it's not going to be any grand battle, is it? The human invaders could only do what they did with the advance party because of the anti-monster and anti-magic fields. Hinata's whole strategy was also based on that same thing, which is why she dominated the fight.
The pacing of this season is really off.
It's the same in the LNs, many volumes are just slow with world building and long unnecessary scenes of things we really already know about, etc., but usually have a nice payoff in the end... just that the pacing sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
I mean this season specifically sucks with pacing. Episodes are ending at the wrong spots most of the time. They're dropping big reveals at the quarter marks of episodes. Or resolving issues within the same episode, only to blur other events that aren't particularly weighty across episodes.
The only thing they've gotten right is the Hinata fight and this last episode ending on Rimuru and team about to launch their counter-offensive.
The manga is much better storyboarded out.
Ah, in that context, yes that too. I just wouldn't call that pace, or maybe it is? But I see what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Ep 34
----------------
An episode of slime hasn't felt this quick in a very long time.
Or satisfyingly brutal in... ever. I particularly liked Orc Lord vs Berserker. "You can regenerate? Good, you'll feel more than one punch."
I don't get why Rimuru put on a mask though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
I would've liked if they expanded a bit on the thought acceleration skill as the otherworlder got killed. Seemed like he would feel the pain and death for a very long time and as it's going slow the pain is more excruciating. Have to wonder if Hakurou waited specifically for him to activate that skill before he killed him. Just the same as the berserker dude which his skills worked against him as as a torture device.
I would've liked to see some blood as Rimuru is killing the army, just seems too clean and also impersonal. Hopefully he has more in store than just this.
Some of the action was very PG, some were more violent... not sure why it couldn't be violent all the time. I also thought that Benimaru was going to fight against a much larger army. I think they made an animation mistake here. He was supposed to fight something close to 100, it looked much less than that.
Regardless, glad to see some cool action once again and the monsters not holding back. Regardless, looks like there's a majin there that could pose a threat, but probably not. At least it's someone Rimuru's underlings had to be wary of.
Well, if there's no mass rez asspull after this, then color me surprised.
Too bad nobody got to fight the girl.
I wonder if this wizard will actually be a threat as, as with Rimuru, he has the ability to collect powers.
I didn't like this. The behavior towards their enemies felt 100% out of tone with the rest of the series.
I enjoyed the death of those 3 obnoxious otherworldler, sure. But you cannot tell me that all those soldiers were "bad" people. They're part of a country's army and they gotta do what they're ordered to. And most, if not all, don't even understand that their was some foul play about the whole initial incident.
I'm not saying that I dislike what happened PER SE, but ... it's just a conspicuous coincidence that two heroes from two anime have gona full-Overlord within the same week. And while Kumoko's acts can be debated, Rimuru has gone full-Ainz.
They'll probably do some weak explanation later on how NOW there will be peace with humans, but realistically, you cannot go back from such a cruel massacre.
Ah well ...
That was a total cop out imo. I kept thinking "how will they counter the girl's instadeath ability?" :/Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
I'm actually WAY more supportive of Rimuru than I am of Kumoko.[removed spoiler from other series] These people set fire to Rimuru's city and killed a bunch of his friends. This retaliation feels EARNED.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
[removed spoiler from other series] But Rimuru's actions are very much human here. And yeah, maybe he could parse out the genuinely evil ones from the unwitting pawns. But that won't bring his friends back.
Well...you say that. But the US and Japan have been at peace for a long time now. And what Rimuru is doing is much less severe than what the US did to Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
I mean...ideally, you send the ninja guy in to slit her throat before she can talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
First you were complaining about how you "already knew" a few episodes ago how everything was going to pan out, everyone was going to be friends yadda yadda. Now you complain that it went a different route. That road had been paved for quite a few episodes now...Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
As for the instadeath, it was already countered when she first used it... don't care how they would've handled it this time around. You have stronger fighters around as it is.
You keep brining full-Ainz, full-Overlord when things couldn't have been any different. I think you have forgotten everything about that series or have a huge misconception on what went on in that series from the get go. But this is not the place for it.
Most people are being given an instant, painless death from Megiddo. So there is a clear contrast to the deaths of the assholes that were maintaining the two magic fields, the Otherworlders, and the general army.
Benimaru killed them all with fire, sliced them and burned them alive as they were still dying, the dragonewts did too, with plenty of stabbing in between. The female dragonewts ninja-wired them painfully to death, and the last team just viciously cut them all down.
We can assume, as Geld inferred, that the last guy (now dead and possessed by the wizard) will die significantly more painful deaths. Especially regenerators. Geld was just beating on the guy, then letting him heal for a few seconds. But what if he healed up in pretzel shape? The asshole Cavalry leader with the wizard will also die painfully, I'm sure, since the former is the one who directly killed Shion and was openly attacking children, and the wizard's nefarious trap magics were just witnessed by Geld and Hakuoro. Both of those two are part of some shitty evil plan to harvest Otherworlder's skills (which is some shady-as-fuck shit, and drastically more evil than what Rimuru's folks are up to).
I think MFauli has it all wrong. The wizard and the cavalry guy are the "comically evil" badguys. They summon and harvest children from other worlds to take their unique skills.
As for Rimuru, he's killing most with a merciful, single, swift strike. The first few thousand died without really having any idea what's going on at all. After the first 5,000, the remaining ones are only now starting to realize that people are dying around them. But even they are dead before it fully registers.
There's 15,000 to go. We haven't even seen the rest of the slaughter yet.
Worth noting that Rimuru cast an anti-magic shield, and is inside it casting Megiddo. They've hinted visually at what it really is.
They were pretty good fights in the episode. It's kind of weird the otherworlders were so full of themselves after having once beaten the severely weakened opponents inside the anti-monster/anti-magic field. I guess it just showed their lack of character.
They are soldiers of an invading army. It doesn't really matter if they are good or bad. If they win, they will write the history (and be the good guys), if they lose, they will be written off the history (as the bad guys). Those who grab a sword must be ready to die by a sword as well. They have got no right to complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
All I will add is: None of you should ever be giving orders to an army ;/
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Incidentally, the ones being killed NOW committed a cruel massacre themselves as you put it... It would be nice if you would sit back for a few minutes and reflect on how REAL history has developed and how war and peace have come along between nations. And you should stop grouping all human nations into the same bucket, it'll make it easier to understand how peace with humans can occur without some "weak" explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
No anime fan should ever have any authority ever...Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Don't worry, I'd never command a whole army. I am, however, a reservist NCO. No offence, but a person without a military training isn't really suited to criticise those with in RL military matters, unless it's something ridiculously bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
For what it's worth, military training in your back pocket typically only makes anime looks stupider. It's exactly the same as with any other expertise, 90% of time, or more. You enjoy the average shows a whole lot more if you don't know much about the theme in RL. If you do, you'll spot mistakes, gross simplifications, and all that stuff nonstop. But then again, that's why they say to turn off your brain when watching fictional TV shows.
"You are making less and less sense." -some Orc LordQuote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Just fight it out with your fists like real men!
So I had another disconnect with what this show is trying to go for tonally this episode...
One of the first things Rimuru said as he floated over the enemy camp was "these are the ones who killed Shion"... Well, unless your autopsy produced about 10,000+ stab wounds, only one or two soldiers actually killed her I would argue. Assuming he meant they are responsible for her death, I would suggest that their command structure shoulders a much larger portion of the blame in calling the attack. Normally simple semantics, but Rimuru is uniquely qualified to single out the actual responsible decision makers that have caused this destruction short of killing anybody that wears the banner, but he chose essentially genocide against an opponent that could not resist him. I understand that this show has been building to this conflict as a set piece, but so far Slime Isekai has, through diplomatic maneuvering, shown that those with reason can be... reasoned with, or at least worth the effort to try.
He then says "there is no need for forgiveness" before beginning his spell. I hope he is more trying to convince himself than actually believing that- he just said last episode that the deaths were due to his own incompetency, as his followers fell over themselves to council him that he is not in the wrong at all. He seems to have internalized it somewhat, so why not show some of that same compassion to the hapless attackers who would have already been killed by the monster kingdom if they were not under orders to do no harm? Because Rimuru needs to kill a large portion of people to become a demon lord and maybe resurrect some side characters; that's why.
The difference in aggression, I suppose, is that the nation of Falmuth(sp?) was expecting a war (with casualties) to preserve their economic interests- not very defensible morally except maybe to its mercantile class. Rimuru, on the other hand, was expecting a slaughter out of reclamation of territory, potential resurrection of allies, and likely some resentment, though I can't know beyond his words how he personally feels. It looks more noble due to the circumstances, but It doesn't feel so when the 'cool one-sided anime fights' are against opponents I have reason to believe can't all be complicit. It is not catharsis but sympathy I feel, and it didn't have to be this way. He could have held a quorum where the kingdom outright denied his (the monster's) claim to life, and there would have been a proper setup for retaliation, I feel. Without stately interactions these events feel like just a means to the end of 'kicking the bad guys out'. I know I'm asking too much from a two-cour anime season of a light novel adaptation, but the details like showing how the solders are all silently 'headshot' by floating water particles felt more like the opening strike from, ironically, a monster invasion. This is still entertaining, even the conflict itself, it's just that the world building has suffered a bit, is all, or Rimuru is really letting the power he possesses corrupt his perspective.
The Otherworlders didn't last very long in a real fight- I forgot that even among them, Rimuru is an anomaly in power. He really did catch all of the breaks, huh?
I don't mean to be dour; I'm engaged more now than any time earlier this season and I hope the storytelling gets back to being a bit more thoughtful.
If Falmuth hadn't attacked, Rimuru City denizens wouldn't have died. Rimuru would have had no need to gather 10,000 human souls to become a demon lord in order to resurrect his people. It's as simple as that. It all began with Falmuth and it will all end with Falmuth. I can't say the scene of thousands of soldiers dying like that would have been glorious or anything, but since it was a direct consequence of the invading forces' own actions, I don't view it as unjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
Basically what I said, so yeah, fully agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
I mean, he's not. That's a real common thing in fiction that, when someone does something evil, the ones that didn't prevent it blame themselves. And, frankly, it's a bullshit trope.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
You aren't responsible for the actions of others. At least, not when you have no authority over them. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
It's one of those ideas that would make Batman the most evil man ever for not killing the Joker. But even then, Batman KNOWS Joker is gonna escape and kill more people. Rimuru didn't know any of this would happen.
I mean, his power is Mega Maning people. It's as strong as the combined powers of everyone he can kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
While self-blame is a dangerous slippery slope, I think his political non-action has at least some blame in the attack. A Japanese (business) person, of all people, I would expect to be especially sensitive to 'reading the atmosphere' and understanding that 'rocking the boat' will invite ire. He was told as much by the Dwarven King and his merchant pal episodes ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
As far as being not accepting responsibility for the actions of others, doesn't that undermine the entire idea of retaliation, or at least the beneficial caution its threat brings? Even though (I agree) you aren't ultimately responsible for other's actions, you can to some degree predict and steer them... or at least you should attempt to when your decision making may lead to nation affecting issues and their further escalations.
Kill, or happen to befriend in the first episode...Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
I would also remind you that the Dwarven King strongly reminded Rimuru that he is a king, and needs to act as one, with all the burdens that come with it. Or that by being so casual and laid back, he is doing a disservice to his people. The visit to a nation that he already gets along with so well ended well enough, so he shrugged it off that what he had been doing to date was working out okay so far, so, maybe he doesn't need to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
He got along fine with Blumund, who advocate for avoiding war (but that's because they're so small they know that Tempest would destroy them instantly...so there's that).
Rimuru has since realized, and admitted to his closest allies, that his sentimentality about being human before, and from a peaceful nation like Japan, blinded him to the reality that not all humans are inherently good, civil, or deal with things diplomatically.
This is his arc to finally becoming a king, though as a demon lord. The reason why he needed to change were telegraphed from the start of this season.
I'd argue that Rimuru rescinding his edict to never harm humans under any circumstances means he's reconciling his responsibility to his people. He's peaceful with other nations, obviously favoring trade. But he's now going to prove that attacking Tempest is a very poor idea.Quote:
As far as being not accepting responsibility for the actions of others, doesn't that undermine the entire idea of retaliation, or at least the beneficial caution its threat brings? Even though (I agree) you aren't ultimately responsible for other's actions, you can to some degree predict and steer them... or at least you should attempt to when your decision making may lead to nation affecting issues and their further escalations.
He wants Youm to become the king, make a puppet state, and immediately resume trade with them instead. He's doing swift, brutal action, then returning to the status quo of happy, peaceful relations.
Though he's probably going to go after Clayman for continually provoking him.
I don't. That's pure victim-blaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
RIMURU IS THE VICTIM!!!11Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
rofl
That's precisely what he's doing: Destroying the whole invading army will send a message nobody can ignore. The threshold of attacking Jura Tempest Federation (or whatever the official name was, I can never remember it) will be considerably higher for anyone. It's exactly how it works in RL as well. When a country is known to possess military might, expansionist countries will think twice before invading, as it might not be worth it. If a country is chaotic and poorly defended, a neighbour will be attracted to attack, just like Russia targeted Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by neflight86
I'm pretty sure Machiavelli wrote that a ruler must be able to show ruthlessness, even though ruthlessness and cruelty aren't good ways to rule. They can be necessary, however, since for some other rulers they may be the only understandable language.
Rimuru is a nuke.
A nuke just doesn't care.
Every nation in this fantasy world seems to have a nuke, if they don't have one, then the whole political landscape makes no sense.
It shouldn't be possibly for any country without a nuke to exist.
Armies are pointless in combat and only good to supress recently nuked territories.
Rimuru is currently showing the world that they too have a nuke.
He doesn't have a moral high ground and it's actually possible to prevent the attack without having to kill everyone - but it wouldn't send the same message.
He is sacrificing the lives of thousands to make a point. That's evil for sure, so lets not be fooled.
You can argue that this will even more in the future as it will prevent conflicts to arise again.
He's basically America attacking/nuking North Korea (without allies) to show China that they shouldn't mess with him.
Sir? I believe you have your isekais mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Nuance matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Rimuru is nuking the 20k armed forces that are marching to annihilate his state.
Just slightly different to colony dropping on a civilian city or Hiroshima.
Ryll pointed out something before about anti-magic and Rimuru being inside. Well if that's the case then those water droplets are really just Rimuru's body dancing around piercing people.
Sure, it's different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
The thing is, Rimuru is making an example, he could probably have solved the whole thing in a different way but he doesn't want to, nor does he actually care.
That's the deal about what makes him evil in this situation and morally liable.
"It can't be helped I guess" *proceeds to slaughter the army of 20k in seconds*
No, he is wrong, it can be helped. It's just easier to get what he wants with this.
You might even say that he is happy about it. In the end, he gets a chance to revive his people this way. He doesn't care about the fact that he basically lost all the "lets avoid fighting"-reasoning he had before this event.
The army marching on his nation is obviously not a threat when he can just delete it like that.
It's a joke.
In our world this is the equivalent of some nation sending a single soldier to declare war and the war is lost for the attacking nation as soon as that single soldier has been shot.
Is it that nations own fault? Hell yeah. Could Rimuru have done things differently? Fucking hell yeah too. I just don't want this to be viewed as an act of last resort or some bullshit like that, because it truely wasn't and isn't.
He could've found different ways, and he could've stopped that army in a different way and probably didn't have to kill them. He is basically a god and he tries to make it clear that no one should fuck with him or his nation by killing thousands. That's not benevolent - that's all.
How exactly would he otherwise have a chance to resurrect his people? Even by becoming a demon lord he's only promised less than 5%, if memory serves. He's not killing those people just for the laughs. Not even to make an example out of them (although that's a much needed side effect in that world). He's harvesting their souls to undo the damage they caused by attacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
I said it before, and I'll keep saying it: None of those Falmuth folks would have died if they hadn't attacked first. Did they try to negotiate with Jura Tempest about the trade issues? No. They just thought they would attack, slaughter, enslave and loot & pillage the place and be done with it. It's insane to blame Rimuru or his country for anything. Trade is supposed to be a competition, anyway. Every country here on Earth is struggling with the challenges or benefitting from the fruits of international trade as well. That's just how it goes.
You aren't actually a spy from Falmuth, are you, KrayZ33? Or maybe you are working for Clayman.
Can it? The "thing" he want to solve is making his friends not dead anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
The only way he's currently aware of doing that is becoming a Demon Lord. And that requires 10k souls.
Could he solve the ATTACK in a different way? Yes. But he can't solve the dead friends any other way.
...you know most countries in our world don't have nukes, right? Countries that continue to exist despite not having them?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
No, it's an act of justice. He is defending his people and retaliating for an earlier attack. Could he resolve this peacefully? Probably. But these attackers don't DESERVE a peaceful resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Edit: Double post
They are all connected to countries with nukes - have guarantees and all that kind of stuff, most of them even have nukes from other countries inside their territory..Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Those that aren't are extremely unstable and basically not a country at all.
There is basically no country worth mentioning north of the equator that doesn't have nuclear weapons.
Our world is also completely different compared to theirs were open declarations of war are seemingly
very common, so it's a different political landscape alltogether.
In our world, it actually matters if America fights someone on the other side of the planet.
In their's, no one would give a fuck because it's "far away".
What I'm saying is that the attacking nation must have some sort of extremely powerful being on their side or as an ally, otherwise their existence (especially since it is as rich as it is) doesn't make sense.
It would have been steamrolled by another nation/demon lord hundreds of years ago since armies are, as we have seen here, obviously completely pointless.
Bullshit.Quote:
No, it's an act of justice. He is defending his people and retaliating for an earlier attack. Could he resolve this peacefully? Probably. But these attackers don't DESERVE a peaceful resolution.
They deserve a peaceful solution just like any other. These are soldiers and not the rule-makers. They are victims too when they are lead to certain death unknowingly and with lies.
If it's possible, you do it if you are a decent being, even if they are the aggressor. Pre-emptively killing everyone just so they don't hurt another being is not only dumb, it has absolutely nothing to do with justice.
Even if he wants to revive his minions, it's not the right thing to do. He's killing tens of thousands for a few hundred (if the number was even that high)
It's hardly different from taking revenge or using the "eye for an eye"-idiom. It's a degenerate way of thinking and he, as a modern human being, should know that. Would it be "fair" to turn around? No.
But that's not the issue I'm having with this.
It's not that I can't understand what he is doing, it's just that he lost all the moral high ground he had. There is no question about that.
Since you were talking about these things in this/other threads, I'd have thought you understood this.
Hell, even World of Warcraft gets it.
When Uther threw Arthas into the maw for all he had done to him and his people, he didn't serve justice. He got his revenge.
Chancellor (or was it chairman?) Rimuru's first responsibility are the lives and prosperity of the citizens of the Jura Tempest Federation (Alliance?). The first responsibility of the king of Falmuth are the citizens of Falmuth. No matter the cost, Rimuru must place his own people before the people of other nations, and the same goes for the other rulers. In a war, let 10 or 100 enemy combatants die for one of your own? Every time. Rather than blame Rimuru for the deaths of Falmuth soldies, you should be asking is the king of Falmuth ready to bear their deaths on his conscience? But then again, I doubt that man has much in the way of conscience, so it could be a useless question.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Moral high ground isn't of much use for those lying dead on the streets. You know, under the anti-monster and anti-magic fields they were almost as helpless against the otherworlders and the knights as the Falmuth troops are now against Rimuru.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
Big fat - nooooope.
He is acting on a fucking fairy-tale.
You are justifying the death of thousands of individuals for the 1% chance. It's really pathetic if not simply blurted out but said with conviction.
Statisticly speaking, he is killing 10.000 for 1 individual - if he is lucky. But that one individual is already dead. So basically, he is playing god. That has absolutely *nothing* to do with "justice".
The only life he has a right to judge and take away is his own. It's not his decision to make and take lives from and grant them to others.
He is *taking* lives, not protecting them. He has no obligation to anyone or anything to do that.
He could've stopped the army without the loss of lives like that. It's really not a "what if" or "maybe not", he so obviously could.
Everyone should know that his actions are understandable. Everyone should equally know that his actions are wrong and the fact that people don't, scares the shit out of me.
I can blame multiple people at once. One wrong action doesn't mean the reaction to it is always right.Quote:
Rather than blame Rimuru for the deaths of Falmuth soldies, you should be asking is the king of Falmuth ready to bear their deaths on his conscience? But then again, I doubt that man has much in the way of conscience, so it could be a useless question.
It has never even remotely been part of the discussion that the King of Falmuth is in the wrong. That is obvious.
What isn't so obvious, it seems, is that killing people (especially those that had no direct involvement in what has happened) instead of forgiving them is wrong. And that's pretty sad.
"Justice" my ass.
"obligation" my ass, he is supposed to protect his citizen, if there are ways to do so without killing and ending the existence of half a nation, it's the obvious way to do that instead. Doesn't matter if it's "fair" or not.
I don't think it's a coincidence that he turns into a "demon"-lord after all this.
If he didn't need their lives for the resurrection magic, I imagine he would have only annihilated the leadership of the Falmuth army, possibly the knights of the strike force that killed his people, but let the thousands of grunts walk away. But then again, I guess that would have required that only a few people, and no named ones, would have died in the city. It would have made the whole first strike of the war look quite pitiful. If there was no resurrection option but Shion and all the others had still died, I reckon Rimuru could have still brought the hammer down on the Falmuth army quite heavily, to quench his wrath. However, he was shown to suppress his feelings in an earlier scene, so it's impossible to know for sure. He might have settled for killing the king, the commanders, the wizards, and so forth, while leaving most of the ordinary troops alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
I don't blame you for finding war scary. That's a whole lot better than so many keyboard warriors all over the net glorifying it and acting like they would be real world Rambos if shit ever hit the fan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
That's what I'm saying.
I can completely and 100% understand his reasoning and why he does it.
He needs the "sacrifices".
It's just that this action is not the "good" choice. It's not what we teach our kids, if you want to call it that.
And I sure as hell hope that he knows this and won't turn into a big-fat hypocrite - that is all, because it's unbearable to watch someone who thinks he's rightous all the time, condemns others that aren't, and then acts like that himself when the first inconvenience shows up that is problematic to solve.
Murdering 20000 people or some gamble to resurrect his friends. Yeah, maybe he simply doesn't get to do that?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
He made a choice. And it's an evil one.
I do have a feeling Rimuru wanting to kill all those people on his own wasn't only to be sure he's going to collect the souls but also so that none of his underlings would need to bathe in blood. His wish for a peaceful coexistence was, for sure, genuine, so what he's doing now is not something he will be proud of.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
War is evil business. It's all about maximum death and destruction. The only sliver of justice in that affair is on the side of the one who didn't attack but defended. However, it changes nothing about the need to kill. Ironically the attacker is the only one who gets to make a choice, the defender is forced into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Depends on who has the upper hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
If I get attacked by a 5yo kid, I don't have to retialiate by using my fists.
I can just hold him in place until he behaves himself again.
This choice, or a similar one, was open for Rimuru too. He is *that* powerful.
This is why I think talking about the cruelty of war or whatever is so pointless in this anime and the whole scenario is already flawed in the first place.
When it comes to fighting power, individual character are what aircraft carrier *fleets* (everything included, even logistics) or nukes are in ours.
Wars between nations don't have to be as bloody in Slime's universe, it's a match between individuals, everyone else is just a victim.
For the sake of this anime, we can ignore all this and pretend that 20.000 soldiers mean something and are a threat, but it's really killing all the "immersion" (for a lack of a better word) it has. Or rather, this whole massacre did destroy basically everything and everyone but the strongest of the strong, became completely irrelevant.
Numbers, the economy, it all doesn't matter now.
It doesn't even matter what monsters/people think of him. It didn't matter before either, the loyality they showed was way over the top in the first place.
And yet "war crimes" is a thing even irl and certain types of weapons are internationally banned from use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
Also just to make sure: Rimuru is the attacker here. He's not defending. Pls no "he's pro-actively defending their town" bs.
1. Humans attacked Rimuru's state and caused damages. The only way Rimuru can repair this damage is by harvesting 10K souls. That's just business. If the humans could resurrect people maybe Rimuru could sit on a negotiating table. But they don't, so Rimuru is restoring things on his own terms.
2. Rimuru isn't necessarily the most powerful being in that world and can benevolently wait for peaceful things to happen. Hinata nearly deleted Rimuru with some help from barriers etc. Rimuru needs to fuck these humans up, become a Demon Lord, rez his mates and continue being vigilant re: guarding his country.
The Krayz33 vs 5yo kid scenario doesn't hold up when the kid can cast Disintegration.
Wut? Have you already forgotten the episodes where the assassin Hinata attacked Rimuru, a foreign head of state, and only left when she thought Rimuru is dead? At the same time Falmuth forces were massacring people in the Jura Tempest capital. In what universe is that not attacking first?Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
I'm actually starting to think you are just trolling now.
Right back at ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
Rimuru had the choice to strengthen the town's defense or to officially announce that he's going to war. A sneak attack against weak soldiers minding their own business is not defense, it's an attack.
I insist on that, because at this point Rimuru is, at least to a good degree, evil and not a white west-hero.
How do you sneak attack an invading army in your country? Ambushing one sure but the nuance of the comment kinda make it sound like he went out found the army minding their own business, on a hiking tour, bonding, doing teamwork exercises and just decided to massacre them. For the record I'm just arguing against your choice of words.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Wow...lot going on in THAT sentence...Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Ah yes, the old "just following orders" Nazi soldier argument. Because soldiers have no obligation to ensure their orders are ethical before carrying them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
It's not the "goodest" choice, but it damn sure isn't evil either.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Complete horseshit. They are an army IN THE PROCESS OF INVADING. Their advance forces were STILL BESIEGING HIS CITY! He is ABSOLUTELY defending.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
20000 people, on their way to murder his entire country. Fuck...them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Which ignores that he also has the objective of resurrecting his people... at the price of the nation responsible of killing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
And sure, let's go with "soldiers minding their own business" LOL.
And who cares about being a "white west-hero" anyways?
You think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Not really.
The countries that could actually field an army for war do all own nuclear weapons.
Not sure why you play the nazi card. These people probably fought monsters in the past and know that they are usually beast that kill and slay their fellow comrades, families and protegees, so it's easy to influence them.Quote:
Ah yes, the old "just following orders" Nazi soldier argument. Because soldiers have no obligation to ensure their orders are ethical before carrying them out.
And even Nazi soldiers don't deserve to die when the alternative is to let them live, so I don't get where you are comming from in the first place.
So much for your "justice"
Right? "Just sitting here...minding my own business...on my way to SLAUGHTER A CITY FULL OF PEOPLE. *whistles innocently*"Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Well, the two main ones are:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
A. Implying that half the planet doesn't matter in a discussion about global politics.
B. Trying to cherry pick your argument by excluding the entire half of the planet that makes your argument stupid nonsense.
Because they are literally the ones who tried to use your exact argument to justify their evil actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
You're marching on a city to murder all of the civilian population there. Being told to by someone doesn't absolve you of that crime. And it DAMN sure doesn't prevent those you're trying to kill from killing you to stop you from doing it.
The ol' post-WW2 war crimes tribunals disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Also, congratulations. I didn't think it was possible, but you've managed to dethrone MFauli as the worst person here by defending Nazis.
Actually they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Since you were talking about Nazi soldiers, I'm assuming you are talking about Wehrmacht soldiers.
Which is what these soldiers are in comparison.
And what do the WW2 tribunals even matter.
The death penalty is not a thing where I live, and it shouldn't be a thing anywhere.
It's unethical and pointless to boot.
But I guess it exists in Japan, which is where Rimuru came from.
there is maybe like... one(?) nation south of the equator that holds something like "power" in the global market or globally in general.Quote:
Well, the two main ones are:
A. Implying that half the planet doesn't matter in a discussion about global politics.
B. Trying to cherry pick your argument by excluding the entire half of the planet that makes your argument stupid nonsense.
The "south" doesn't own nuclear weapons, that's probably why it's the "shithole" it is and the rest of the world sees to it that it remains that way. Are you telling me these countries are stable, rich or even secure? Most of them don't even have a stable goverments. So it's not complete nonsense at all.
Guy-who-defends-Nazis opinions on ethics worth absolutely nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
And how is that at all relevant to your stupid fucking statement of "A country without nukes can't exist in a world where there are nukes". Which you then had to walk back to "Has nukes, or is allied to someone with nukes". Which is ALSO blatently false. So you then had to be like "Well, all of those countries that don't fit my argument don't count."Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Fuuuuuuuuuck. Yoooooooooou.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Hey guess what dipshit. Most countries in the North aren't stable either. Not even the ones with nuclear weapons. Watch the fucking news.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Then let me reclaim that throne: You are wrong when you accuse ALL WW2-German soldiers of being evil and doing wrong (besides the fact that war is always wrong, ofc). Most nazi soldiers were no differnt soldiers than in any army at that time, men given orders by superiors and being forced to execute those orders. The most gruesome nazi shit was done by a relatively small elite. But that doesn't excuse it, ofc. However, you are wrong when you think that the German soldiers fighting at the Normandy coast were "evil" - they had the order to defend the coast line, just like US soldiers had the order to conquer the coast line.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
And clearly "they could have just not execute an order" is easier said than done, otherwise we wouldn't have wars even today. And when the alternative to executing an order is being killed by your own superior, that's also a choice that, while not hollywood-style heroic, is absolutely fair. Kill someone else or be killed? You go try make that decision, Darth.
To circle back to Rimuru: He chose to attack these soldiers. He made zero effort of diplomacy. "But they already attacked the town!", yes, so? That happened when the leader was away, so now that Rimuru is back, he could have tried to negotiate. But he doesnt and the only reason is because of a shitty plotdevice outta nowhere aka "yOu CaN rEvIvE dEaD pEoPlE". :/
And the language. That's to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by DEX
Yes. That's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Rimuru has to kill 10K people to get his companions back.
And when a marching army game his way, he thought "Thank God" at the solution. The guys who killed his nation are sending him a solution (not that they know it).
How do you negotiate with humans to "rez my nation or give me 10k souls to do it with."?
You can't. But they did the damage. So unless you're going to let your people down by letting this go, you start grinding those souls.
Aye-aye, Captain!
They were still aware of what that elite was doing. The holocaust was not a secret in Germany. But they continued to fight FOR it. That makes them culpable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
It's no different now. If in America, you think you're a good cop. But you blindly defend your fellow cops, no matter how bad they are, then you AREN'T a good cop.
But I need my sentence enhancers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
The holocaust WAS a secret to most Germans, wtf Darth. It's 2021 and most people dont know about Uighurs, Kurds or Bergkarabach. And that's with internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Lol, yeah, all those "secret" televised Hitler speeches.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Most people in the world. Not most people IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHERE IT'S HAPPENING.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
let's get back to topic. clearly you dont know a lot about german history. If you believe, Hitler televised citizens about the Holocaust ... pls educate yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX