At Accel's full capacity, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Misaka could buddy up with MISAKA and Last Order though if she really wanted to take post-injury Accel down.
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At Accel's full capacity, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Misaka could buddy up with MISAKA and Last Order though if she really wanted to take post-injury Accel down.
There is no way Last Order will take Mikoto's side over Accelerator's.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5035/32031175.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Let's try that again.
And I haven't even brought out the ice-cream or the childish underwear yet.
Boys over flowers.
There is not a single thing that can even damage Accelerator(except Touma)...
The story simply hasn't had any reason to introduce too many characters trying to. Accelerator is still a human behind his powers, and thus prone to dying very easily. A normal human could kill him with nerve gas. Or just poison his next meal. So, it's not impossible to imagine some espers that might have a chance as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelbair
Accelerator will meet someone who knows how to use his powers against him. That we know from the first show.
Even if the explanation was a bit too cheesy for my tastes, Accelerator isn't unbeatable. Even without the more effective and simple ways Kraco mentioned.
That reminds me that Accelerator would probably be useless against Kuroko. Well almost anyone would be per our former discussions.
But in that particular case, Accelerator can reverse anything coming at him or touching him. But since Kuroko can teleport things, there's no reverse option and no vector/speed change Accelerator could use if objects appear inside him, like a pebble or anything teleported inside his brain.
Well, according to Index he hasn't been hurt even once before Touma's punch. so i doubt that anyone can win vs him.
Reversal of vectors is default mode of the barrier around him, but it is not the only one. He can alter vectors too.
Teleportation - we don't know how exactly her power works - she might be moving stuff through extra dimensions as it was theorized before, therefore teleportation uses a vector, albeit not a 3d one. It can be reversed/altered.
I think that there is only thing that could damage Accelerator - something that it outside of his understanding(new law of physics for example. or some kind of quantum tunnelling-like power effect) -as we are aware that espers need to do precise calculations to properly apply their powers.Quote:
The theory behind teleportation is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find his/her position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport.
source - Index wiki
That doesn't prove anything siginificant at all. It's not like beating Accelerator would have been the life's mission to anybody but some miserable lowlifes that we have seen attacking him. Even Accelerator himself never wandered around looking for strong people to beat. He was annoyed when fools appeared out of nowhere to challenge him in vain. So, why would anybody more intelligent and actually strong even bother? They would require a strong motive like Mikoto trying to save her sisters. It doesn't need to be mentioned how rare such an incentive would be. If nobody serious ever tries, then nothing can be proven. Except that the first, or second if you count Mikoto, serious person who did try, Touma, actually did beat the mighty, invincible Accelerator. Not much of a legend if you think about it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelbair
I'm willing to bet that all lv5 have fought with each other to test the limits of their power.
You've already forgot that scientist dude who shat on him hardcore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelbair
I'm pretty sure Teleporters cannot even touch Accelerator, otherwise all decent Teleporters would be level 5, and Accelerator won't be number 1 out of the level 5s. It was already deduced before that Kuroko adds vectors to anything she teleports, so Accelerator's reflect will work on it.
Killing 128 original Railguns was deemed necessary to make Accelerator level 6, so yeah, Mikoto will never be able to beat him.
Saying that no one is seriously after Accelerator's life despite him being number 1 in the entire city is absurd. He is performing an experiment that involves killing 20,000 Railgun clones, and only because there aren't enough original Railguns to beat. Don't you think the other Level 5s or powerful espers will be involved in something similar? The very nature of ranking espers means they are competing with each other, and not all competitions are friendly and fair, as we have seen from the 4th ranked level 5 and the insane Accelerator. What's the most straightforward method to be the number 1 in the city? Just get rid of the number 1. The reason Accelerator retains that spot is simply because no one is able to beat him, except of course Touma, who won by being underestimated, luck, and plot armor.
Poisoning his food might work though, if he was stupid enough to eat food someone else has prepared, which is quite possible after he was changed by Last Order.
Are you talking about the one who put a bullet in his brain? That guy took on Accel when he used his full processing power to decode Last Order's virus, so I'm not sure I'll give him much credit for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
As for the Top Esper Competition, I'm not sure there's some real combat ranking per se. I'd say each esper simply just gets evaluated on their ability and ranked, just like Mikoto gets ranked in the railgun-test. The question I've always had was how they evaluated esper powers. Something "objective" would be energy output, but it would be difficult to apply that across the board when some abilities such as mind-control doesn't use power its basis for "ability". Control obviously plays a part in it, but how you gauge that is an even bigger question.
Based on that, the exact definition of a level 6 isn't even given to us, so I have no idea about what such a "breakthrough" signifies beyond +1 to an arbitrary category system.
We haven't seen other level 5s than Accelerator, Biribiri, and Mental Out, if memory serves. We know Mikoto is no match against Accelerator, and we can deduce Misaki is neither as it's all too easy to imagine reading and affecting brain waves requires traffic to and from (Mikoto is able to block it, after all), plus she's even using that remote controller for whatever purpose. Besides, I don't see such a princess character interested in fighting swearing, scruffy men in dark alleys anyway. Mikoto was chasing Touma all the time to have a fight, but we all know her real tsundere motivation behind that action. She would never chase Accelerator similarly.
So, what guarantee do we have any of the level 5 would have a personality making them fight till death against another level 5 just for the sake of a ranking list? Nothing. That's just an assumption. Even Accelerator's personality wasn't deep down like that. If it was, he wouldn't have saved Last Order and suffer her continuous presence by living with her. In fact nothing suggests the highest level espers (4/5) became such by endlessly challenging strong people in fights. It's about personal reality, which makes it all about stuff inside one's head, not gaining experience points from last bosses.
I was never overly impressed by the people behind the level 6 shift program, so I've very high doubts the stupid fights Accelerator went through would serve any other purpose but to make him a psychopath. Seriously, the CPU time they got from Tree Diagram was completely wasted.
Of course there is no guarantee. However, that goes both ways. There is no proof of there being no combat between the level 5s at all is there (in fact, a conflict between 3 and 5 was already seen in a previous episode, and a beat down in the next)? There is also no proof that the other ranked espers have no desire to improve their ranks by beating those above them is there? What I am saying is, in a setting where 20,000 clones are being killed to improve the power of 1 esper, it is stranger to assume that no violence, competition, or conflict exists between those at the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
When Accelerator was beaten in Index, people started coming after him. Why the hell would they do that? While vengeance is a possible reason, it was made obvious that the assailants wanted recognition, which is a perfectly good reason, especially for people nearer the top because they may believe they have a chance.
If you are saying that the others aren't seriously trying to kill Accelerator because the risk is too high for the gain, doesn't that prove Accelerator's superiority and practical invincibility? If he could be killed just by "seriously trying" he would be dead by now.
While there is no rule that said "No Espers shall fight for rank", the chances of that happening are slim - simply because the way people are being constantly evaluated on-screen are through tests. Kuroko was graded a lvl4 by her control and ability to move objects. But all that's just a side-argument. The biggest reason why fights aren't used to evaluate abilities is because abilities are not military-goal related. This is Academy city, not super-soldier city. Students are assessed on merits, not combat proficiency. Accelerator was made to fight because life/death situations were supposed to advance his ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta
There is nothing to rule out the violent approach you suggested, but at the same time there is simply no reason to evaluate non-combat skills via combat (while there is at least (elusive) reasoning behind the personal-reality and world-bending tests currently used).
People want to take down Accel because:
1) he's an asshole (revenge)
2) he was untouchable (feel good)
You've pointed that out, but you suggest that 2 is meant to boost their ranks. I fail to see Academy City Admin raising anybody's stats because they beat Accel. Touma beat Accel and he's still level zero.
Yeah, sure they want recognition and fame. But they were all were nobodies, just like the people Mikoto keeps electrocuting in the dark alleys. They are either common ruffians not knowing what they are doing, Skill-Out members, or some level 1 or 2 fools who don't know how they are supposed to develop themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Risk is high, but what exactly is the gain, huh? I said before we have no evidence whatsoever you become a strong esper by defeating strong people in battle. All we have is the bullshit theory from Tree Diagram, which no sane person would buy, because that theory even replaces strong opponents by a huge number of weak opponents. As if a normal human could become stronger by killing 20000 mice one by one, for example. Since your power as an esper is all inside your head, you could become level 5 by sitting in a monastery dwelling in your own little personal reality until you believe you are the emperor of the world and can do anything. Though I doubt in practice great many could pull that off.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
And yes, Accelerator could be killed by seriously trying. We have already covered that. But there's no meaning in killing him by underhanded methods. Your fame wouldn't rise among your peers if you told them you killed Accelerator not in a fight but by spicing his meal with botulinum. But then again, we haven't even seen yet serious people who would care about such a fame, just the nonames.
@Buff - Ranking non-combat abilities may have to rely on tests as you said, but combat abilities can be compared and ranked by combat. Tests may exists, but that does not mean that defeating a higher ranked esper (and thus proving you are stronger) will not be recognized. Mikoto wanted to sacrifice herself in a battle with Accelerator in Index to save the sisters. She intended to die on the first move, disproving the tree diagram that stated that she would be killed in a set number of moves. This means there is reason to believe that scientific evaluation based on "on screen" tests can be affected by real life events. Real life events are still data after all, and are part of the data used on evaluations. The level 6 experiment being halted indicates this as well. Scientific evaluation and data were overturned by a real battle. The reason Touma did not rise in level is simply because he did not have any observable abilities to begin with.
I guess speculation at this point is moot, because all we are saying is that we cannot disprove each other. It will simply end up in "How do we know..." or "Chances are..." which really have no meaning because all that can be said has already been said at this point. Debating possibilities based on the lack of evidence is pointless.
I am still quite certain that in Academy city, no one can beat Accelerator in a straight fight, even if it is just based on the nature of his power.
But.. there's Touma.... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta
He seemed to have that sort of fame, if nothing else, so it makes sense most espers would imagine losing the fight immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
If I understand correctly, there are already quite a lot of level 4s in Academy city, which means there are all manner of powers as well. Considering how all level 5s are so famous, or at least much attention is paid to being level 5 even if the actual person behind the rank number was largely unknown to the population, it would be strange if there actually weren't a few official level 4s who hold themselves back in the examination to avoid being promoted to level 5. Sure, most people especially of that age would like nothing better than to belong to the glorious elite, but I'm sure there are some among them who'd think two steps ahead, especially since they need to be special to be so strong espers, so they can't be any Jane or John Does. I'd see certain advantages in being officially level 4 but in reality already level 5, all the more so if Shinta is correct and some espers try to climb ranks by proving they are stronger than those right above them. In short, there could be a level 4 with some non-vector power who could actually fight Accelerator. Not that I'd except such a person to appear in the story.
@Buff - I never really considered that as a straight fight, since Touma had help from Mikoto and the sisters, unless you considering ganging up on a person a straight fight.
Right. I don't remember the exact details, only that Accel somehow missed Touma with the giant pillars and Touma punched him in the face. If Touma had significant help from everybody else though, then I agree that it wasn't all that "straight".Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
(Just remembered that they screwed up his plasma bomb, so yeah. Accel got handicapped bad)
I personally see the most merit being the 2nd strongest in Academy City. You're not targeted for being the "champion", but you also have the ease of mind that the only one officially stronger than you in fact isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
If the top guy is seen as invincible (like Accel), then you might be the second alternative that everyone looks for instead. Since you're already stronger than Accel though, all you have to do is show how much of a power gap there is between #2 and #3, and they'll all try the next student in the pecking order.
Yeah, if you care for any merit, then that would be a jolly choice. I was theorising about people who have no use for official recognition and develop themselves purely for their own satisfaction or personal goals. For such people official level 4 would be enough. It would already open the doors (because level 4 is already plenty strong), but they wouldn't be awesomely special level 5 who won't get a good night's sleep from all the buzz and hype. There are people like that, who want to stay in the background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
I really felt sorry for Mikoto this episode. It was expected, but I guess having her trump card defeated so easily by another person is quite shocking. Accelerator didn't even do anything because his reflection is automatic.
I am surprised Mikoto did not get hit by her own projectile. Maybe Accelerator intentionally adjusted his reflect, because usually it redirects targeted projectiles in the exact same direction it was launched. He was just teasing her after all.
I liked how such a cold researcher can be moved by something so simple.
I think it's simply due to problems with tearing off a limb from our dear Mikoto. She's got plenty of spare clones to get an arm from, but no researcher would stick their neck out to repair that.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
It seems like he usually alters the trajectory during an active battle. I guess that makes sense since the default mode would leave him little control.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Seeing Mikoto's despair and utter defeat in this episode, it's no wonder she fell so hard in love with Touma, in her tsundere fashion, after he defeated Accelerator and thus voided the shift project.
So he normally sets a new default to +15 degrees for battle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
The way he responded sounded like the reflect happened automatically while he was talking, so there shouldn't be any active control at all. I take it that Accel wasn't being sarcastic when he acted confused for a second.
I never thought this arc could be so incredibly boring the second time around. I hope it gets more interesting soon. I nearly started to skim this episode.
I remember he "apologized" to either Misaka Imouto or some random chav, who got wounded by the default deflect, saying that he was still in his default state, suggesting he wasn't yet in his battle state. Or at least that's how I interpreted it. It also makes sense judging by the evidence we have seen: It looks very much like he first enjoys deflecting all attacks, making the opponent panic, and only then he goes forward himself to deal some damage. It was very pronounced in this Mikoto battle, but it did show quite well indeed in the previous Imouto fight as well. Obviously he couldn't do that if the enemy's first attack was send straight back immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
This week's episode summed up
http://i.imgur.com/n2jnHXf.gif
We already know the conclusion but i'm looking forward to see the journey. For example, the events that led Misaka to consider suicide was her only option left.
Smart. Dedicated. Perverted.
Kuroko would make an awesome wife.
Poor Mikoto. She shouldn't have refused to eat the gel whatevers, though. It looks like her vigilante activity eats helluva lots of calories, so she could have used the carbohydrates. And it only seems to be getting harder in the future.
Quite a nice contrast to Uiharu & Saten's usual silly everyday life and antics. Kuroko seems to be suffering mentally quite significantly due to Mikoto's troubles. She really loves her onee-sama.
Finally, ITEM makes its appearance!
Holy shit that was so boring
Fast forwarded through and through. That episode was equal to thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
I think this show has pretty much established itself already in such a way that the preview shows high action and thrill, yet when the episode actually comes out, it's 75% slow trudging and 25% action. I'd prefer at least 50-50, because no matter how much I try to like this, it's still a struggle all too regularly. I guess it would be better for a Kuroko fan, but, alas, I was never one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inazuma
This stuff is better than any fight Touma could pull off, since all he can do is talk to them and/or punch them.
Mikoto's power, but particularly control is much better than any Index fights I remember, and probably even the previous Railgun adaptation. Funnily enough, this is largely because she isn't using her railgun move.
Even so Mikoto is still talking too much and pulling her punches, when the opponent is obviously trying to kill her. You'd think she learned humility from being completely helpless against Accelerator and on the other hand determination from her desperate fight to save the sisters. I guess a person can't change overnight. But then again, she wouldn't be the good old cute Mikoto anymore if she did...Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
With her opponents multiplying, she ought to start to regret trying to solve everything by herself.
The blonde girl is probably the most annoying member of item so far. That speech pattern really irks me to no end.
Mikoto is being really annoying with her strange restraint. Why didn't she just pour electricity directly into the blonde's body when they touched?
Because she actually doesn't want to kill someone, and in this case, also wanted more information. That would make her as bad as Accelerator. On some level, she knows she can go further on Touma, because nothing really works on him. Each time she steps it up a little, but even against him it's not her full strength.
This is a repeat of what we saw when she fought Kiyama. The doctor noticed that once Mikoto had switched to fighting the AIM fetus, her power apparently quadrupled. Kiyama and the AIM fetus both used the same shield to disperse Mikoto's powers, but she severely damaged the AIM fetus by going all out against it, superheating the atmosphere. Kiyama only got a good jolt of electricity at the end of their fight, and regained consciousness moments later.
Mikoto always holds back against humans, even Touma to a degree. Kuroko, as often as she gets shocked, doesn't end up with her tongue paralyzed. Frenda got maybe the equivalent to a tazer hit. You get the feeling that Mikoto knows precisely how dangerous she is, and how lethal her powers can be if used incorrectly.
That's why she's one of the good guys. She thinks about how she uses her powers and who she uses them on. It is what separates her from the other Level 5s, who so far have all been sociopaths or flat out psychopaths. Accelerator has been getting better in the Index timeline, but he's still pretty vicious.
edit:
As bad as the Telestina arc was, we also learned that Mikoto uses the coins to limit the range on her railgun. The larger an object she uses, the further it goes, and the more it destroys. The coins disintegrate at exactly 50 meters. Her true range is measured in kilometers.
Not exactly. The coin's range is 50 meters because it disintegrates. Something heavier could arguably travel further given that Mikoto has the energy to propel it (she does, but to what extent we do not know). In the end, it's the durability of the object less so than the size or mass. Size in particular would increase drag and further reduce the durability of the shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
I thought it was kinda cute, but she's a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinta
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
cause it would have caused a spark, most likely, at least I don't think its possible to do that without it happening
what was most annoying for me was that weird fuse ability.. so easy to counter especially for mikoto and she managed to get cornered so often
I'm pretty sure she uses coins because they are everywhere and they are all the same, within quite a decent error marginal (coins of the same value), so she would know how they behave. They are ammunition she can acquire extremely easily (she's just a middle school girl even if rich, so it could be annoying to try to order special projectiles from some factory), they are standard size and weight, they aren't suspicious (everybody can have coins) and thus can't be even used as evidence against her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
If Mikoto cannot control the amount of electricity when she pours electricity directly into someone she is touching so that she hurts them but does not kill them, she does not deserve her level 5 rating. She does it to Kuroko all the time, so it should be a piece of cake.
So she can electrocute the air, but not the inside of human body she is directly in contact with? That is pretty fail for a top electromaster. Electricity travels much better on human bodies than air after all. Sparks won't appear if the energy is directed to the body itself. If done in low voltages, the body won't heat up enough to ignite the explosives.
I'd rather think that she simply did not come up with the idea at that time because she was being pressured by kicks than she being unable to control her powers properly.
everytime she does anything sparks fly around her.
the same actually happened when she shocked that blonde chick
do we even know if she is able to generate an electric field "inside" her body, or won't it stun her too if she does?
a pyromancer probably can't boil up his body either without suffering the consequences
I wonder how they are able to control the heat anyway.... whatever, powers vary each episode anyway, the show is doing a poor job in that regard
Exactly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
EDIT: Actually, I think the bigger problem for me would be how the espers don't use their powers efficiently. Mikoto can fly around and stick to walls using magnetism, but she chases her enemy on foot, and even maintains the shape of the stairs after it blew up. She could have just zipped directly to the enemy and zap her a bit. It was like the entire fight was there just to show how versatile Mikoto's power are at the expense of her tactical ability.
I'm glad Mikoto brought up that using her powers uses up energy though. I don't think it was ever really mentioned that using their powers actually costs them anything. I'm honestly not sure how much I can count on this being fact, or just being an inconsistent, one-off comment. If this is true, that means Accelerator can be overwhelmed if we forced him to use his Reflect enough times.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
One nuke wouldn't work, but how about 3?
Esper powers use up mental capacity. They have to concentrate to use them, and concentration eventually runs out. Maybe there is such a thing as overusing your powers, but that would likely be more of a mental breakdown than a physical breakdown.
For accelerator, even using 100 nukes would be pointless because his default reflect will protect him. I think that in order to tire him out, one should make him use his ability in different ways, directions (targets) and magnitudes, like making him protect his surroundings while forcing him to attack and defend all at the same time, for a long period of time.
Yeah, he isn't number 1 for nothing.
For that to work (because all the attacks wouldn't be directed at him), you'll be making him jump back and forth to use himself as a human shield? That would be a sight to watch. :p (it should just be reflect + increase vector of leg power though)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinta
Adding to the whole Misaka inconsistency, I remember a previous episode where she has trouble with powering a rice cooker without overloading it. It further adds to our previous perception that Mikoto's forte was power (railgun) and not fine control. Here, it seems she's capable of both.
Accelerator wouldn't survive a nuclear attack. He would suffocate during it. It's also why he wouldn't survive a far more simpler chemical weapon attack, provided he wouldn't notice it quickly enough to simply escape.
No he won't. Accelerator is a freak who blocks out sunlight because it is "harmful" to his skin, all while walking on the ground and not repelling his clothes. He can probably filter any harmful matter in the air, and if there is simply no oxygen to breath in, he can just fly up faster than the speed of sound, take a breath, and fly away to grab a burger.
Accelerator can probably hold his breath longer than anyone as he probably can control his own blood circulation to prioritize brain and heart oxygenation. He probably can finetune his body/mind functions to a minimal outuput needed to get his ass off of most dire situations.
He probably even could deconstruct molecules to get oxygen (like underwater)
He's a strong level 5 after all.
It's one thing to filter a band of EM radiation and to choose which molecules to inhale from the surrounding air. Well, it would be actually plasma in the center of a nuclear explosion - and I'm pretty sure you'd be dead if you took in much of that.
In episode 14 of Index, Accelerator already lamented he had troubles breathing after the dust explosion of his own making. And that's a tiny thing compared to a nuke. His escape would also be slowed down by acceleration, of all things. After all, it's not speed which harms the body but too fast acceleration or deceleration. And who knows, considering how fast a nuclear explosion is, he might not even have the time to filter anything at all. He could be dead before he knew what happened.
Edit: You guys also forget he's currently a half-vegetable only functioning with the help of the sisters network. He couldn't stop one ordinary bullet when he was concentrating on Last Order. So, what makes you think he could concentrate on repelling all the EM and other forces from a nuclear explosion, choosing what to breath or not to breath, very quickly escaping from the site (without seeing anything)... All at the same time. He already proved he couldn't do too much at the same time.
His auto reflect will handle everything harmful that the nuclear blast will do. He does not even have to do anything or react to anything. Then he can simply escape by flying up (I mean seriously, where else would you fly after a nuke..?) afterwards. He does not even have to filter the air really because he can just hold his breath for like 10 seconds. Acceleration or deceleration does nothing to Accelerator. He mentioned in Index that he can negate Newton's third law, converting the direction of the opposite force to be directed, amplified/weakened, any way he wants.
When he saved Last Order, the entire point was that he did not have any leeway to do anything else except save her. The complexity of the operation needed to save her was just that high. It has nothing to do with his ability to protect himself without any distraction.
He is only a vegetable if the electrode is off. If it is on, he is still as strong as before. He is still the number 1 level 5 even while walking around with a cane after all.
The manipulation of vectors is simply an overpowered ability.
I remember that Reflect works like a program - he sets minimum values of different forces, light intensity, air density etc that can pass through and reflects the rest(which is a error that leads to him getting punched in index s2 - he should've set 'change vector to outwards from my body' to be perfectly immune).
Nuke's explosion wouldn't kill him - but lack of air probably would - its just matter of time - how long it takes for 'air' to arrive near him after explosion. - i bet that he would hold his breath for at least minute, and then there is usual 4m30s before any brain damage starts to happen.
Yeah, if for some stupid reason he wanted to stand around at ground zero after the blast.
I always wondered how he would go against a teleporter, since there won't be a vector to control to prevent anything and once something is inside his body its to late.
isn't kuroko (thats her name right?) the strongest esper, that ability is way to powerful
This was mentioned before. Teleportation has vectors, so reflect works on it too, probably in a different way though because there is no exact opposite direction for a teleported object.
in what ways does it have vectors there is no "start" and "end", its just appears there, inside him... she could probably teleport another human into him and he would explode because his body wouldn't be able to hold the mass. its instantaneous and thats the important part to counter his ability
in the end noone knows what anyone is capable of in this show, the only constant so far has been touma, who can't do shit but nullify everything, which itself is stupid again because he is able to nullify misaka's attacks, but not Accelerators plasma bomb
for example, the fire mage spells should've burned his skin to toast because the heat is there, no matter what, the moment they come close enough to "touch" them, touma should've suffered burning damage to a certain degree
the same goes for Accel's plasma bomb, even if he used vectors to do that shit, the plasma bomb should disappear once touma touches it, but there is no way he could ever touch a thing like that without dying first
You can believe that saving a girl is more difficult than surviving a nuclear explosion. I won't. We will never know since I very much doubt we will be seeing Academy City nuked to oblivion.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Liked Xel said, he allowed that one ordinary human bastard with nothing but a ridiculous technique of pulling punches beat him almost as badly as Touma with Imagine breaker, so in my opinion that also tells plenty of how well he would manage to deal with a nuke.
The very sound argument as to why accelerator is immune to teleportation, is that teleportation still is a vector based power. The vector only is with 11 coordinates instead of 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
It has been said(can't remember the ep) that teleportation works through some kind of other dimension - it just moves object through it - and therefore it has vector - but not 3D one, but of higher dimension.
so.. wouldn't that mean that accel is capable of doing teleportation?
and what about his limits in terms of "power level"
why would someone like him even go for lvl6
what would change/improve? if he is able to control every vector, then he should be max-level already
Level 6 is basically unknown, so no one really knows if they can achieve it, and what results it would bring. The method is also in question because the entire Sisters project is pretty iffy for reasons already mentioned by posters before.
Accelerator cannot teleport because espers can only have 1 power. He can manipulate vectors but using the 11th dimension is different because it is an ability reserved to teleporters (as far as I know).
Accelerator can manipulate vectors, but he can not create them. That's why he leaps. I'm sure he could leap really high, but I'm not that sure of sustained flight at this point.
He's not able to teleport because he can not create the vector. While he can manipulate vectors, it's arguable as to whether he has to be able to conceptualise the vector.. in which case he would have to be familiar with the means of teleporting if he is to stop it. As to whether or not he can learn that from being touched by such a vector.. /shrugs.
The most iffy thing about level 6 is the classification: what even separates lvl6 from lvl5? I've defaulted to the level of reality warping (however that's measured), but decided that it was just something thrown into the story that will probably never get visited again since the project is now stopped.
His default 'reflect' will change the vector of teleport without his conscious action, but he by himself doesn't have access to that dimension, or maybe he doesn't know HOW to access it and how it works(contrary to the teleporters)... reversing the vector is just literally adding minus sign before each of coords.
and yes, he can create vectors- he did so in season 1 of index i think.
think of level six as achieving even more power - some kind of unknown barrier to overcome. He wants to overcome it just because it might exist. He doesn't even know what level 6 it - but he thinks that it is change to Übermench, or ÜberESPer. something beyond current realm of powers.
His default reflect is pure magic anyway, considering his clothes aren't exploding, he can use door knobs and eat food, and breath. The fact it just happened to disappear somewhere when he was saving Last Order makes it even more magical, by any reckoning. So, rejecting teleported objects isn't anything much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelbair
The espers aren't far less mysterious than the magicians in the Index/Railgun world. They are merely less ritualistic, but it's all the same stuff.
I don't recall this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xel
This discussion again... we have no idea if he can create vectors or not, for all we know he's just redirecting gravity as he pleases.
we also have no idea what vectors are..
i'm pretty sure temperature is not a vector for example
Actually ... depends how far you go. Atom vibration. And Vibration can be seen as movements, thus vector. But I don' have no Phds.
we also have no idea what vectors are..
i'm pretty sure temperature is not a vector for example
unless you go into molecular level, probably... don't know.
edit: oops meant to edit
and how does someone not create vectors in his everyday life?
everytime I move I'm creating a vector, by doing so I could for example increase my velocity with accel's power
his power is simply impossible to understand and thats horrible.. worst superhuman power - ever
He can create vectors by moving his body. For example, if he wants to fly up, he cannot simply fly. He has to at least step on the ground to create a vector, then he can manipulate it to propel himself like a rocket.
He cannot randomly create vectors out of thin air. He can just manipulate them, and he has to do it by touch too. I have never seen him manipulate a vector he was not in contact with. That means the vector he is manipulating will always have a new starting point which is the contact point with his body. This means that he cannot make objects fly in a zigzag pattern because he is no longer able to influence the vectors once it he no longer has contact with it. This is of course only about Accelerator in his normal state. His black wing mode is another thing altogether.
A vector is simply "A quantity having direction as well as magnitude, esp. as determining the position of one point in space relative to another." (google). I think if Accelerator becomes powerful enough, he can probably create and destroy matter by manipulating the vectors of its most basic parts, like subatomic particles. He obviously cannot do that yet though.
Mikoto isn't nearly as good at fighting strong espers as she is at giving the random punks and other weaklings a hard lesson. I guess it's mainly due to lacking the will to really fight till the end. She can dispose of weak opponents being sure not to cause any permanent damage, but there's no such luxury in a fight against genuinely strong opponents, so she's at a loss and fights below her level. That's quite a deadly sin when the enemy has no such reservations. Well, she will always have the main character shield, so I guess she'll be alright no matter what happens.
So out of Academy city's 7 Level 5s, 4 out of the top 5 have various abilities to control EMR. It'd be nice of the rest of them are somewhat varied. Frenda's my favourite out of ITEM. Sure, she'd be kinda shitty to know as a person but she's got plenty of cute sides that make her the most interesting compared to the rest.
Too bad Mikoto only uses her railgun against non-human targets. Given that lasers work in a straight line, I would have sent a railgun back down the tunnel and see what happens. They could have fried it if they had the same situational awareness that Mikoto has, but otherwise it should be too quick to react against.
It doesn't change your point but I thought to point out it's probably not a laser. The next ep preview says: Particle Destabilizer Meltdowner. So, it's not a laser, just your regular death ray.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
But yeah, she should have done that, but I guess she would have been too worried somebody might actually get hurt (while she was all the time dodging lethal attacks).
It's only partially true, because Mikoto is fighting 1 against 3. And a team that is used to fight strong espers, has experience, no reservations (as you said), and seem to really work well together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
I actually think Mikoto fought fine this time around. She attacked immediately, but that got deflected, so she opted for escape. She wasn't getting away so she figured out that they have a tracking esper. She also managed to use her spider powers to its fullest, all while sensing the attacks, even deflecting one using her powers (wall climb, spider sense, {electric} web grab of objects and walls, yeah that cannot be a coincidence).
She did well surviving until now, even forcing Takitsubo to burn out on drugs. She just wasted energy on a stupid battle with Frenda after all (and she is fully to blame for that), and even then she managed to elude 3 espers, one of which is the 4th ranked level 5, technically rated only weaker than her by a step.
In terms of pure destructive power, her railgun looks like crap to the meltdowner (stupid name, but that's the toaru series trademark). It is simply an unstoppable laser cannon. It's good that she is able to deflect it though. Mikoto wins hands down in terms of versatility though. If they had started fresh one on one, I'm pretty sure Mikoto will win against Mugino, especially if Mikoto had access to the iron sand (which she does not in this scenario).
Why the hell is Kinuhata wearing shorts?? It may be canon for Railgun (I don't know), but I really wanted to see her in her trademark Am I Wearing Anything Down There Wool Sweater.
Tactically speaking she should have wiped out the small fries first, leaving the actually dangerous Meltdowner for later. Like you said yourself, Mikoto's power is far more versatile and it would be a breeze to defeat an opponent without any defenses against electricity. However, despite the fact she has made a hobby out of hanging in dark alleys in the hopes of cooking fried punks, she doesn't possess the mentality of a fighter (yet). Not that I'd be really complaining as I'll rather take the cute tsundere Mikoto than a battle scarred veteran with dead eyes. But nevertheless in serious battles like this she is selling herself short.
Well, to keep things in a proper perspective, for a middle schooler she is definitely doing great simply by staying alive.
She didn't think that Takitsubo was a small fry. She felt something dangerous from her, so she ran, which is the best tactical decision at that time because trying to attack 2 espers with unknown powers (one of which erased huge metal objects and shot beams) and another esper that had bombs all over the place alone is just stupid.
After she ran, she had her hands full just not getting melted. I don't really see how she can take care of the other two first, especially because Mugino will protect them, as she said so herself in this episode, even if it is just for the sake of keeping her tools safe.
Yes, it was the best tactical decision considering she was never interested in the slightest in defeating these people. Her objective is to disable the facility. Maybe I left it too ambiguous in my previous posts, but I was merely theorising what would have been the most effective way if she wanted to get rid of these people for good.
I find it funny how all of the level 5 have no idea what the others look like.
I assume that Mikoto is rank 3 and Mugino rank 4 because she can pseudo-fly and Mugino can't. Mugino's power seems much stronger than Mikoto's in terms of pure destructive capability. Mikoto's railgun does about the same amount of damage, but Mugino can do it all the time and doesn't need anything ferro-magnetic to fire. It kind of bothers me that flight seems to be the deciding factor when someone's rank is considered increased. Accelerator was perceived to have powered up after he started making those tornado wings, when he could have always just altered his own vectors and jumped as far as he wanted. Mugino doesn't appear to be able to fly, so she's weaker...riiiight. :/
Guess that's another so-called toaru trademark, arbitrary rankings.
There was also the line about how the two can defend or deflect each other's powers, so they operate on the same basic principles. I suppose where Mikoto moves electrons to create and manipulate electric fields, Mugino brings them to an extremely excited state to make free-electron lasers. Looking forward to their fight.
Or it's based on power output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryll
Do you mean that Accel was "powered up" in that he had a cool-factor? Or did someone from Academy city actually say that he became stronger?
The whole series gives the impression off that Accelerator reached a new apex once he could fly about, mostly in tone. The characters responded to it that way, though I don't remember if anything explicit was said. Dramatic power up music, that sort of thing.
His lame-ass flying is definitely not cool in any way. It's such a hack job, but they made a big deal out of it every time he did it. Flying or levitation in Index just isn't cool for some reason. Mikoto's spider powers are much more creative and interesting to watch. Or Kuroko's teleporting and even Sherry getting a lift from golems.
ITEM would be no fun without Frenda. That much is evident.
And... rankings are based on profit??? I've never seen Mikoto do anything profitable other than being an unofficial member of Judgement.
She gave her genome to the level 6 project. That seems profitable enough - if you are a fool like the involved scientists and those in power, considering the project is pure bullshit. But I'm sure there's an equipment manufacturer or whatever somewhere out there who made a fortune out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Anyway, don't be like Mikoto and believe everything you hear or read. Why would this Meltdowner know any better what's the real situation? She's nothing but a tool used to do dirty deeds and clean up the mess. A mercenary. It's quite natural she thinks the ranking is something based on profit, since she obviously does anything for the right price.
It's quite evident Mikoto has skipped her Combat 101 if she hasn't been eating much during the past days. I thought everybody knows the old saying an army marches on its stomach. You'd think she would have had the wits to at least get chocolate bars if nothing else.
I kept reading the numbers, but really under 2 grands for a Mikoto clone... Geez, that's dirt cheap.
No that's SCIENCE!Quote:
Originally Posted by David75
It's probably the cost of the growth medium, drugs, and electricity running the equipment. If the process is extremely streamlined, like it should be considering they make thousands of clones, then around 2000 is quite realistic for the organic and inorganic matter needed to compose a human. The price cannot include development costs, general facility costs, wages of the mad scientists, equipment, or anything of that sort. Just the gun the clones are usually carrying, FN F2000, would eat most of the price of ~2000.
Yup my thoughts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
When I was searching for a specific cat, getting a little one was at least double that price. And it wasn't even the most expensive one...
Here, it was just my hentai otaku side talking :D
And finally we see Touma. If you are up against Espers. Get Touma. If you need help, get Touma. If you need to force someone, force Touma. Poor guy.
So where can I buy aQuote:
Originally Posted by David75
grid-computerMikoto clone?
Potential profit, manipulating electricity seems much more versatile than shooting death rays.Quote:
And... rankings are based on profit??? I've never seen Mikoto do anything profitable other than being an unofficial member of Judgement.
TouMan has returned, time to punch bitches and melt tsunderes.
Meltdowner power would be awesome in destruction work (buildings for example?), escavating, drilling, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
Since she trully vaporises the matter, rather than just displacing it, that would save even more ressources.
But Mikoto's power is a lot more versatile as she can use it from fine manipulations like server hacking to moving tons of metal scrapes, weapons, walking on walls and so on. Her range of possible is clearly vastly superior to what Meltdowner showed us.