Are we sure Suzaku was fully aware when he stabbed his father?
Lelouch never wanted to use his Geass against Nunally, but we don't even know wether it works against blind people... After all Lelouch needs direct eye contact.
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Are we sure Suzaku was fully aware when he stabbed his father?
Lelouch never wanted to use his Geass against Nunally, but we don't even know wether it works against blind people... After all Lelouch needs direct eye contact.
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelingsQuote:
Originally Posted by DDBen
According to definition 1) Lelouche is a hypocrite and Suzaku is not. According to Definition 2) Suzaku is a hypocrite, and Lelouche is not.
Now, what's bothering me is the different standards being applied to the two. Most people seem to say Lelouche is not a hypocrite because he's consitant within himself. He's not lying to himself, despite lying to others. He gets so much respect for that as a character. No one is crediting Suzaku for being the exact same way. Suzaku believes in not shedding blood. A person who truly believes in the value of life and shed blood, does not idly stand by while another sheds blood. He gets in the way of that person. He shed's that person's blood if necessary. Suzaku has 2 choices, let Lelouche do what he's doing, or stop him. Suzaku's goal is to create a just world, much like lelouche, with the exception that Suzaku seeks to minimize the blood shed in the process. Unfortunately, because of Lelouche's rebellion, that means stopping Lelouche. You give one way Suzaku/Lelouce is a hypocrite, I give you a way Suzaku/Lelouche is not.
We don't know Suzaku thought his father deserved to die. We only know he killed him to stop him. If there was another way, he might've done it. He doesn't view Brittania as a personal messiah, or else he wouldn't be trying to change it from the inside, which is his stated goal. I'm not sure what you mean by "reasonable part of the loyal opposition". But he's certainly no more batty than Lelouche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y
Okey, cool that you make up your own meaning to what hypocrisy is, me, I'd rather go for the dictionary version, since it's correct and your's IS NOT.
"a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess."
"a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude."
Note in the second one that Lelouch doesn't have a publically desirable "attitude", what he has is the intellect to support the people, he just doesn't let on everything he knows and wants to do. Lelouch has never been a hypocrite. Now I'm not gonna go much deeper into this, since you Barles are bashing out your own thoughts without even reading what another person says, focusing on the part in their posts where you actually think you have leverage, when in fact you don't.
So I second what DDBen said and will now walk away from this debate about hypocrisy, which you so clearly know very little about. It's a big word for some people, I know.
We don't know if Suzaku thought his father deserved to die? Is that a question to ask? He killed his father because he did not agree with him... And he was 10 years old. Let me make it clear to you. No one, and I do mean NO ONE at the age of 10 kills their parents unless their mental health has a big warning sign over their head stating "CYCO" (yes I use that spelling, it's taken from a band and it is deliberatly). So, it's not a matter of wether he deserved to die, it's a matter of how much of a cyco Suzaku is and how much he is trying to hide that fact.
Suzaku's will is law, and he is a puppet under the emperor.
@Uchiha - Suzaku became as you describe because of Euphie's death. Before that, he was a fucking hypocrite. Now he is less that, and more of a fucking asshole.
And in your definition number 1, both of them are hypocrites.
And you know, there is no way to convince your father to stop what he is doing, except uh, stab and kill him.
God I'm glad that is you user name.
@Shinji - while I hate Suzaku to the bone, he is not as bad as you describe. We have to accept that so that we can cut him where it counts, and deeply.
I don't know why but Kallen is nothing more than a sex object for me with all the fanservice about her.
Is there a episode yet where she doesn't show her ass or boobs yet? They could do it at least in a more appealing way like they did with C.C. @ the container where she sat on the handrail.. Season 2 is really very much about fanservice 8[
Well its not that I dislike to see C.C, Shirley or even Kallen (especially the first 2) but it is a bit too much right now,especially with Kallen...
and I lol'd in RL when C.C and Lelouch where talking aboutV.V. as a male character...I thought it was a little girl
btw did C.C. shrunk herself when she fell on the pizza-pastry?? Or was it meant to look like she gets sucked into it?.. Her arms/legs simply everything shrinked when she bounced on it. And was she cosplaying that robot-girl from Negimagi? (poor C.C. getting thrown into a container full of tomatoes :( )
Yuki and I already called her Chachamaru on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Fanservice aside, this episode did well in providing comedy relief and a nice big trap set up at the same time. Hypocrite or not, you have to agree that Suzaku isn't just the strong headed solder he was in Season 1. Now as Knight of Seven, he's learned to not only use his opponent's weakness against him, he's learned to use his position to call upon more manpower in the form of two fellow Knights of Round.
Though more of an asshole, we can finally see more strategic battles between Lelouch and Suzaku rather than purely the Brain vs Brawn scenario we had for most of last season.
And it seems Milly misses Lloyd, while we can't be sure the reverse is true.
edit: Did anyone get an encoding boogie @19:17 Eclipse version?
Another great episode. Too great. Looks like things are just gonna get harder for Lelouch. He needs a break. :p
Getting a little catty there aren't we? wow...Anyway, the definitions I posted in my posts are in fact from the merriam-webster online dictionary, merriam-webster being one of the trusted name-brands among dictionaries. It's no MY definition at all. Taking credit for something like that, I think is plagiarism. Second of all, I read both your posts thoroughly. And you are correct, I focus on the part of your argument where I have leverage, the reason being, I think your argument is wrong, and focusing where I think the logical flaw is (i.e. where I leverage) is EXACTLY how one is supposed to counter argue. You really ought to try to do the same with my posts, if you actually care to argue or show why you're right and I'm wrong. These arguments are supposed to fun, no need to get catty about it. I suppose you did use leverage, in saying my definitions were my own and not from a dictionary. It's also the only "leverage" you tried to use. Now that you know better, wanna try again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji Ikari
Concerning your argument about Suzaku, I can't really argue against it, because you're probably right about him not being all sane. Ok...Neither's Lelouche. If Suzaku is willing to kill his dad at ten to achieve what he thinks is right, that makes not sane. Well, Leloche has been planning his rebellion ever since he was discarded from his family. That was like, what, when he was 8? No sane person is willing to Sacrifice and manipulate an entire people for personal gain, no matter the actual ends. If you end up saying the ends justify the means, then the ends that Suzaku tried to achieve justified his means. Be fair with the standards you use to render judgement.
Well, the reason I said Suzaku wasn't a hypocrite according to definition 1), it's because I actually believe that he has this virtue, the ideals, and is trying as best he can to uphold them in the face of war. Just because you're against bloodshed, doesn't mean you sit with your hands tucked away while everyone's dying around you. You can't really blame someone for killing a ruthless revolutionary and fighting his soldiers to do so, in an effort to stop the bloodshed. As far as him becoming what I said he was after Euphie died (I'm still in utter shock as to how that happened btw..that was genius), I think Euphie made him get real serious about it. Remember at the end of Season 1, he said he suspected for quite awhile that Lelouche was in fact Zero? I think he was the same, but just more serious after Euphies death, and him finding out about Geass, which also pissed him off to hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Idk, these last two episodes have been pretty lackluster at best for me. Sure the cliffhangers are pretty good, but the "we'll keep playing the S1 card and you'll watch it" this is starting to get annoying.
Oh well at least we got to see C.C's ass:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9751/assshottw4.jpg
15% of the people that watch this show watch it for her anyway...
Lol, you didn't make a screenshot of her panties when she fell into the container? Thats low! I already got a life size poster of it
btw why is it that Code Geass mechas are so damn colourful? The new Mecha showed this episode could have been so great in a simple dark or grey with red eyes..
but noo it had red/blue/pink/white/yellow and what-not in it :(
@Uchiha - its funny how you give a lecture on argumentation and completely ignore my post (that is addressed to you BTW) that attacks the mistakes in your argument.
C.C. is only more than half the reason I watch code geass, so I am not part of that minority yet.
Lol, I noticed your post, I was just a bit annoyed at the guy I responded to and I forgot to respond to you. I went back and edited my post to respond to your while you were writing this one.
You must have a very loose understanding of virtue then. Preaching against bloodshed while killing people is a fundamental contradiction. You may give the example of police who are sometimes forced to take the lives of criminals in the interest of protecting innocents, but Suzaku's case is clearly nothing of the sort. Please do not forget who he works for, as well as what they make/made him do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha Barles
What makes him a hypocrite is the fact that he thinks his way (this way) is much better, despite it being on the exact same level. He puts on a "false appearance of virtue", when he actually does not have it, as much as Lelouch does not have it in this sense. Your understanding of the very definition you posted is weak. It does not matter if he believes in it himself, or if you believe in Suzaku on any level.
When Euphie died, he stopped pretending as much as he did, and he openly admitted that he wanted to kill Zero for revenge (something he would have never admitted before Euphie's death since it blatantly contradicts his own as well as Euphie's ideals). He even sold Lelouch to the emperor, something this "virtue" you speak of should not allow. There is a fundamental change in Suzaku's outlook. It is not simply about being more serious.
I can clarify how I understand Suzaku's virtue with an example. Imagine a regular guy, we'll call Jake, who has this belief that bloodshed is wrong. Now Jake lives in a village, and his villagers are all defenseless. So, some murderer comes in, and starts slaughtering them. Jake wants to stop the murderer, but doesn't want to shed blood. So, Jake puts on some heavy armor, and stands in between the villagers and murderer. The murderers attacks are useless against Jake, and Jake stands there till the murderers done. Cute, ain't it? If Jake does not try to stop the murderer, and allows the bloodshed, he is a hypocrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Now, lets put the constraints that one would expect of reality. Jake's armor would have to be REAL heavy to be able to withstand all the murderers attacks if the murderer came properly equipped to murder. The murderer has two choices now, see if he can maneuver around Jake to get to the villagers, or leave, and come back with better weapons. The better the weapons, the heavier Jake's armor has to be to stop the weapons. Eventually, the murderer will be able to maneuver around Jake. It becomes clear that Jake cannot simply stand between the murderer and the villagers forever.
Jake has another option. He can simply subdue the murderer. Think about actual combat for a second. If you're in a fight, and you want to subdue your opponent, who is trying to kill you, there has to be a large differential in fighting ability between you and your opponent, and it has to favor you, because in subduing and not killing, you limit the offenses and defenses you're allowing to use, while your opponent is not. Otherwise, you get killed and you fail at subduing the opponent. If Jake has the odds stacked in his favor, great. But if he doesn't, he cannot subdue the opponent, and he will die. If Jake understands this, then he is a hypocrite to allow himself to die, because his death will not stop the bloodshed.
Jake has one last option. He can kill the murderer. This is easier than the other two, because the power it requires is less than the other two, and it may sometimes be impossible to acquire the power necessary for the other two options. You kill the murderer, the bloodshed stops with his own. If Jake knows the death of the murderer will stop the bloodshed, but Jake does not kill him (this being his best option after ruling out the other two for lack of power), then Jake is a hypocrite, and a coward might I add.
Now, let me remind you, Suzaku, while he said he was going into combat to kill Zero, he did not kill Zero. He in fact actually succeeded in subduing Zero, had all the opportunity in the world to kill him, but didn't. Instead, he tried to make good of a bad situation by using Zero to try and make his own vision of things come true. This turning in of Zero is in keeping with EVERYTHING he set out to do, exactly as he set out to do. If you say that he sold out a friend, remember, he thinks Zero maliciously used Euphie, via Geass, to slaughter Japanese, all in an effort advance his own agenda. They're no longer friends, and one who would do that, deserves death. Suzaku's ideals required that Zero be brought in. He did not act on the anger he showed when he said "I'm in this to kill zero". He acted consistantly with his ideals. In fact, look at what's happening right now. If Zero was gone, he'd have proceeded to choosing Japan as his protectorate, and ruling them justly under Brittania after he became knight 1 or whatever. He's THIS close to winning, while staying true to the very ideals he mentioned, even if they're under the constraints of reality.
One more thing. As far as has been shown, Suzaku has only killed people who raised arms against him. The people he killed, had arms raised, and if Suzaku wasn't there, they would have killed others. Suzaku's plan, without interruption from rebellion, is the best suited to minimize bloodshed. Lelouches plan is best suited to maximize it. According to the "Jake analogy" in the first few paragraphs, Suzaku can't sit by and let Zero do this.
One last edit: I do recall that Suzaku was ordered to slaughter a bunch of innocents civilians to prove his loyalty, but he never got to do it, something happened that caused him not to take part in it. So that part of his character actually never got tested. So I don't see a way to make him a hypocrite if we use the same standards that causes Lelouche to not be a hypocrite.
You don't seem to understand what the meaning of fundamental contradiction is, but I won't explain it since it will only waste time.
Your examples are pointless. His ideal is/was never what you make it out to be. Please refer to the first few episodes of geass S1, and recheck what kind of person Suzaku made himself out to be.
I think it has been established a few episode threads before that what he did to Lelouch (selling him) is worse than simply killing him for a number of reasons. Please refer to them so that you may understand.
Also, do you really think that the overpowered Lancelot does not have the capability to disable opponents without killing them? If he really had the virtue of cherishing life, he would have taken the extra mile (and a very short mile that is, since not killing the pilot is quite easy in code geass, especially with the efficient eject mechanism of the knightmares), even risking his own life to do so. Suzaku has chosen to kill numerous people just because they do not agree with his ideals (I can give you numerous examples of this so don't even try to dispute it).
True they are armed, but that does not make them "wrong", unless disagreeing with Suzaku (and his master the empire) is considered wrong. You make it sound like everyone that has died in his hands are "enemies" or "evil". Code geass is not that kind of show.
If you say you still believe the stuff you were saying, then that simply means your understanding of virtue is incredibly loose, too much that it would apply to anyone, making anyone virtuous (since each person does have a personal, usually self-righteous reason for fighting). Because of this, it is a moot point to argue about Suzaku having it.
EDIT: This is an old topic that is pointless to discuss further. Most of your arguments do not make much sense anyway, so I will stop this here for the sake of everyone in this thread. Consider this my last post about this.
Ok, my personal understanding of the two is that they're both hypocritical. My whole argument is based on the fact that some people say Lelouche is hypocritical, while Suzaku is not, and some say Suzaku is hypocritical, and Lelouche is not. When I look into why they think this, what I find, is that they're using different standards to judge the two, based on a personal preference for the methods of either Suzaku, or Lelouche. I'm pointing out the flip side of the coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
As far as Suzaku is concerned when it comes to fighting the Order of the Black Knight. His enemy is that Order. And that Order has shown that it has the Capability to destroy his lancelot. When you fight under the banner of some power, you're not viewed by your enemy as a single entity separate from that Order. You are in fact, and avatar of that Order. Suzaku would be a fool to go in fighting the Order of the black knight and not try to kill, because the Order has shown power enough to kill him. Example, Kallen's Mech to me is comparable to the Lancelot. I happen to think the difference is in the abilities of the pilots. If the Lancelot gets ambushed by some random mechs of the order, who's to say Kallen isn't laying in wait around one of those corners?
As far as me not understanding the fundamental contradiction you've mentioned, I do understand it, I really do. You're against blood being shed, so you ought not shed blood. It's simple really. But, I also understand these things: If you're against the shedding of innocent blood, you ought not allow it to continue. I understand this as well: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." What you can do, is limited by the power you have. Suzaku is in a "screwed if you do, but more screwed if you don't" situation. He's a hypocrite for fighting against the Order if you consider what his ideals are? He's a bigger hypocrite if he doesn't fight them. And by the previous paragraph, if he fights them, he should fight to kill. Also, let me assure you I know what his ideals are. Create a just society by following the rules of the current power, because this minimizes bloodshed, and this is exactly what I'm making it out to be. Suzaku said this himself in season 1, which btw, I just watched in its entirety last week, it's all fresh in my mind.
As far as turning Zero in being worse than killing him, I will check those threads to see what's said in there. I suspect that all the arguments I'll find will speak to Suzaku being an ass for betraying his friend. But nonetheless, his ideal is following the rules of the kingdom, gaining power that way, and establishing a just society. Apprehending and turning in the enemy of the kingdom (Zero in this case), is consistant with that ideal. Also, I really don't see what argument is going to stand against the fact that Suzaku and Lelouche were no longer friends from the moment he thought that Lelouche used the Geass to cause Euphie to massacre the japanese, all for the sake of continuing the rebellion. But don't worry, I'm going to check those threads right now.
OMFG. I wanted this to stop but I cannot stand not replying to the nonsense above. Very short reply though.
Not fighting and not killing are two different things.
See episode 3 (or was it 2) of R2 and tell me if what Suzaku did to those obviously inferior knightmares (he said so himself) was not needless killing. It was practically a massacre, when he could have disabled them easily.
You do not understand the concept of fundamental contradiction. That means YOU CANNOT KILL if you want your ideal to remain true. What you propose is not the ideal that Suzaku originally went after (note Lancelot's first appearance - no enemy pilot was killed), but a more pragmatic version that he adopted as the show continued (which he donned while maintaining his belief of his moral high ground that would have applied initially but not later).
You are having a heyday throwing around the word hypocrite aren't you? Please don't forget to keep it in context, meaning consistent with what people meant when they said it, not what you mean by it so you can prove your point.
Check the threads. Your suspicions are wrong.
EDIT: If we agree that this is his ideal, how can you justify his actions I noted above?
EDIT: If this doesn't make you understand, nothing will (which means do not expect a reply no matter how silly your following posts become).
On a side note, and a hopeful change of topic, does Suzaku's beliefs extend to other people, or only to the Japanese? Does he even value people outside his country?
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this one. Who on earth has said that Suzaku isn't a Hypocrite aside from yourself with a completely nonsensical story about Jake?Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha Barles
Suzaku originally intended to be a good soldier at the very start when he ran into Lelouch in S1 at the start. Then he was used as a pawn for the death of Clovis and at that point he choose to go back to Britannia in order to follow his ideals and that good could come from changing things from within. He held fast to his ideals upto the death of Euphie. After that point he changed his methods from changing things by doing whats right to changing them by any means necessary. You can't even argue that with the scene of him going upto Italians(I think) demanding they surrender there country and then killing them for saying no. At that point there is no way at all to argue against him being a Hypocrite he's spent the last year killing innocent people to gain power for himself because he thinks nobody else can possibly manage to accomplish it.
Now Zero/Lelouch on the other hand hasn't done anything at any point to match the definition of a Hypocrite. I welcome any example you can come up with. Lelouch doesn't even attempt to make any excuses about leaving the final battle in S1 its just a fact the Japanese resistance needs Zero no matter what cost he comes with. Zero needs them to accomplish his goals but there goals are not his and thats been made clear. However he will give them what they want if they continue to help him as it benefits him anyway.
Basically put where is Zero/Lelouch actively contradicting himself or any of his goals with his actions? Give a example of that one because I certainly can't come up with one.
I believe Suzaku is too ignorant and that he actually believes the empire is correct in what they are doing. I mean, what other reason could he have not to give a damn about killing people in EU. Brittania initiated a war with them, which goes against Suzaku's beliefs about bloodshed and all that crap, but for some reason he just can't seem to care, instead he comes into the battle in EU and starts killing people arrogantly, saying their resistance is futile, making it sound like they are just some terrorist guerilla or something, which of course is totalt bullshit.
I think Suzaku's trouble lies very fundamentally with him not being able to see what will come from his actions. He never stops to think, in fact, he is happy not being allowed to think, only being used as a tool for death by the empire.
I think he only cares about Japan, but I think he only cares about Japan because it was embedded in his mind since he was a little boy, having the prime minister as a father telling him that the mother country is to be protected and cared for no matter what.
In other words, I don't think he knows what he cares about at all, it is only a thought in his head that he can't make heads or tails of. He has only been desperate to save one thing one time, and that was for Euphie, he has never shown that kind of desperation for his country, unlike Karen, a true believer of her country's rights.
The only thing I think Suzaku cares about now is revenge and to prove that he is correct (more so out of pride and hatred than out of anything else).
Never try to make Suzaku out to look like Kira from Gundam SEED, like Shinta said, fundamental contradiction. Kira stopped killing people in battle NO MATTER WHAT, he was willing to die to protect his way of life.
I would not be surprised in the least if we first see Lloyd having zero interest in Milly whatsoever (since he stated he really only wanted her for the dowry of the Ganymede Knightmare frame) and then he turns around and kisses her full on the lips, or grabs her around her very curvaceous waist, or similar in front of Cecile. This would invariably cause the usually shameless Milly to blush fiercely. Cecile might then smack him for being ill mannered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
@KrayZ33:
Kallen has always been a sex object since episode 1 of season 1. Just think about it.Quote:
I don't know why but Kallen is nothing more than a sex object for me with all the fanservice about her.
- Her basic outfit was a double-sided keyhole jacket with a tube top underneath, short shorts, and leggings.
- Lelouch saw her naked in the shower.
- Upgrade to the Black Knights uniform. Practically non-existent skirt.
- Give her the Gurren Mk II. Now she's posed leaning heavily over the control seat (which seems to be designed after a street motorcycle, perhaps alluding to another huge fetish in Japan...auto show girls). Either way, granting an excuse to have her pose in an overt sexual manner.
- Give her the skin tight "plug suit" from Raksharta.
- Suzaku sees her naked.
- Season 2 begins, she's wearing a bunny suit of all things. I'm would not be surprised if the entire casino sequence and "punishment" of the Elevens was written solely for granting an excuse to make her wear that.
And so on and so forth...
I've always had the impression Suzaku's ultimate goal/ideal was the elimination of armed conflict with him in a position of power and authority in Britannia. While it's true that in a world without armed conflict there wouldn't be as much meaningless murder, I don't think Suzaku has ever had any qualms about reaching this ideal by killing or otherwise harming anyone who would stand in the way (see 10 year old shooting father for not bowing to Britannia). For whatever reason I don't think he places a higher value on anything than he does on peace (i.e. the lack of conflict) with loyalty to Britannia a close second. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are things that one might think a good 'virtuous' person would value but I don't believe any of these things matter to Suzaku if they get in the way of peace or if upholding them would cause him to be disloyal to Britannia.
For Suzaku killing someone wouldn't be bad because it deprives that person of their life, it would only be bad if that killing pissed someone else off and made them want to escalate a conflict or if Britannia didn't want that person killed. Britannians randomly going through ghettos and shooting civillians would probably not be in line with Suzaku's ideal but at the same time, as long as those people didn't fight back I don't sense anything 'hypocritical' about him not having an interest in stopping it. By the same token if the survivors of such attacks chose to form an organized military organization to fight against Britannia rather than be subjugated (and shot at) it would be well within the lines of his ideals to try and cripple or destroy that organization, because if there is no structure to a resistance it is much less dangerous and less likely to cause large scale conflict.
EDIT: I just recalled in the first ep he was dislyoal to Britannia by refusing to kill C.C. and Lelouch and got shot for it. I can't think of any other incidents where he went against direct orders from Britannia after that though so maybe that changed him.
As much as I think it's will only make things worse I'll throw in my take on the hypocrisy fiasco.
If my assessment of Suzaku's core ideology is accurate then Suzaku would only be a hypocrite if he were to act in a manner that invited or expanded a conflict when doing nothing would have made the conflict end more quickly or there wouldn't have be a conflict in the first place, OR if he willfully disobeyed Britannia in order to further some other goal.
During season one Suzaku would most often arrive after a battle had already been engaged and was dragging on with Britannia not able to advance. He would then act to cripple the enemies ability to continue the battle as quickly as possible, because his goal was for the conflict to be over with Britannia the victor (earns him points). The reasons the battle was being fought or the lives of the people fighting never seemed to have much bearing on his actions. Also, if you look at his track record for mid-combat diplomacy, he only seems willing to talk to people if he realizes he can't just overwhelm them and quickly destroy their ability to fight. Only when he recognizes that the fight could drag on longer if he just keeps fighting weill he try to convince the opponent to stand down on their own. If he can just destroy their ability to do battle then he's fine with that and in fact it seems to be his first preference.
In recent memory the closest I've seen Suzaku come to hypocrisy (meaning acting against his beliefs as I perceive them) is when he was fighting the EU. I still don't consider this hypocritical because while the EU didn't start that fight and were only engaged in conflict as a response to the aggression of Britannia, Suzaku arrived after the battle had already started. Faced with an ongoing battle where Britannia is not overwhelmingly winning I think he would be keeping to his ideals by trying to stop the other side from fighting as soon as possible, by any means necessary. One could argue that ending that particular battle only meant there would be more battles between the Britanians and the EU as they advanced further into Europe, however part of Suzaku's ideology seems to be that Britannia must be victorious and as we know, he has next to no foresight into the collateral consequences of his actions. Though I suppose it's possible Suzaku figured getting ass-raped so soundly might convince the EU to just give up. In any case, destroying the EU forces was something that furthered his ideals (as I perceive them) so I don't see it as hypocrisy.
Hah, I can't believe I didn't notice this the first time:
At 7:37, While the other members of the student council are guessing at Zero's identity and trying to pry it out of Suzaku, Shirley makes her guess. And she's dead on. A combination of the brain warping Lelouch did to her and the Emperor's Geass? Though it would be true that Shirley didn't know Lelouch was actually one of the Princes.
Also, at 13:40, we get a hint at the fate of Lelouch's "duration test" victim. The last mark has only a single scratch in the wall. We can assume she was forcibly removed from the Academy in mid-stroke. Perhaps she is in a mental facility back in Britannia.
EDIT:
On a far more serious tone, what could be Rollo's Geass' weakness?
And secondly, at 13:36, Rivalz finds one of Nina's boxes. But it says "Beardface!! This is mine!! Don't touch - don't open it!! Throw it out and I'll Kill you!!"
1. Who is "beardface"? No one in the council has a beard. I can't think of anyone else at the school that would have it.
2. What is in there?
She's turned into a huge bitch. Nina was generally rather sweet and quiet, not quite like that. I guess Euphie's death changed her in lots of ways too.
I have no clue who beardface would be, but there are two very interesting options for what happens to be inside the box. First, it could really be Nina's. In that case, it could have all her table-masturbating materials featuring Euphiemia pictures and possible a small stool for the occasional boost. More incriminating, it could be filled with general paraphernalia from her student council days. Namely, pictures with everyone.
Including, of course...Nunnally.
Or...given the nasty tone of the box, it could also be Kallen's. But they all seem to remember her being a member of the Black Knights, so I'm going to lean towards the former.
Alright, I went ahead and read the threads you mentioned, I went ahead and took your suggestion of reviewing the episodes in the first season. Here's what I found. Concerning Suzaku's ideals, he never once said his goal isn't to kill people. He said this in episode 1, between 16 minutes and 41 seconds into the episode, and 16 minutes and 51 seconds of the GG sub: “He is merely a civilian who has been caught up in this...I can't shoot a civilian like him (Lelouche)”. To this date, he has yet to shoot a civilian.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Next, in episode 4 (I'm always referring to the GG subs) he said, at the 20:51 mark: “ That's why I'm going to change Brittania into a worthwhile country from the inside out...Even so, those are the rules (in response to lelouche saying he's going to get shafted if he returns for a trial), if I don't go, the accusations against the Elevens and honored Britanians will begin.”
Ok, this is straight forward, he wants the Elevens and honored Britannians to suffer as little as possible, so he follows the rules of the current governing power, Britannia in order to minimize the suffering of the Honored Britannians and the Elevens. Nothing he's done so far has increased the suffering of either the elevens or the britannians, unless it was in relation to fighting the Order of the Black Knights. This he does because of the rules. I think Yukimura is right on the money concerning this. And the rules he follows, he does so because of his ideals, his respect for the lives of those not in conflict.
You mentioned that Suzaku, in the beginning didn't kill when using the Lancelot. Ok, fine. Considering observing that says that Suzaka does value the lives of the other soldiers he fought. Fine, note though, he never said (and I just went through season one in it's entirety) that he was going to do things without killing at all. That means him not killing those soldiers (who at the time weren't officially part of the Order mind you, which is another point to be made, they were not under anyone's banner) was a bonus for them, and not a single one of Suzuku's ideals made that something he HAD to do to not be seen as a hypocrite. In fact it was naïve of him to act that way, and it was something he needed to grow out of, and did. I already mentioned in my previous post why it was naïve. This shows that he was conflicted, not hypocritical According to the standard that you use to judge lelouche that is.
I'm having a heyday throwing the word hypocrite around? Why don't people say what they mean instead of butchering the english language? And, I did respond according to what the posters meant. And that response, once again, show that they use one standard to measure Lelouche, and another to measure Suzaku. Let me give you an example of this inconsistant (hypocritical?) use of standards that I've been able to uncover on account of your suggestion to view the old threads.
The following quote is from THIS thread:
The following quote is from the OLD thread, code geass season 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
So, in the old thread, the fact that Lelouche is not lying to himself, and having his beliefs be consistent with his actions is good enough to Judge Lelouche by. But, when I show that Suzaku believes the same, and he's consistent the same way, all of a sudden that standard no longer matters? THIS is what I'm talking about. It's not fair. And that's not me crying like a little girl either. It is not a proper way of forming a conclusion. If it appeals to your emotions and your sense of morality, fine, but it has no place in a logical debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
@DDBen: In order for you to call any of them a hypocrite, you have to have a basis. I just showed in the preceeding paragraphs, that the basis you used is not good enough. He didn't change his methods after Euphie died. His method, is to follow the the rules of the empire with the belief that this is the best way to minimize civilian casualties. It always has been. There are times when he was conflicted yes, like when he was told to shoot Lelouche, and when he was told to massacre civilians. To this day, he's done neither. When he does, I'll revisit whether he's a hypocrite or not. The EU are not civilians, those he killed were a fighting force. And this was all under Britannia's orders, which again, he'd resolved to follow. Also, he never mentioned that he thought there'd be no bloodshed his way. He just thought there'd be less bloodshed of NON-COMBATTANTS doing things his way.
Give me a basis that you can use to sustain your argument that Suzaku is a hypocrite, and I guarantee you I can use that very same basis to show that Lelouche is one too.
Edit: w00t! 1000th post! I'm quite happy it wasn't in a Naruto forum.
Sorry, but there CAN NOT be enough :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Man, if Lelouch used his Geass to its best, this series could have become an awsome hentai-series...lol....no, serious...or lol?
@episode 5:
Overall a bit slow, but as someone said, very nice setup-episode for whats coming next. And i hate Suzaku. Not that i ever liked him, but i hate him now for putting Lelouch into such a pinch. Wow.
I did notice your three points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Shirley, the box and the scratched wall.
The wall was a very nice detail, specially since it was discussed some episodes ago, here on gotwoot.
But I kinda got lazy after seeing pages and pages of full essays on Suzaku's hypocresy vs Lelouch's hypocresy. <--- the fact remains that we like Lelouch and we don't like Suzaku. End of story.
It seems people disagree with what Suzaku's ideal is, and that is fine, as long as it is acknowledged as Yuki did.
@Uchiha - Lelouch may be a liar, but at least he doesnt lie to himself. Suzaku may be "honest", but since he lies to himself, he is practically fooling everyone else as well.
There is a very clear and consistent logical standard used on both of these. Are you like, blind? This is based on the second definition you gave before. I can argue that even the first applies, but that would be just a waste of time. The difference is what we believe Suzaku's goals to be, not what logical standard is used. Sigh...
In my post I neglected to add my opinion on the matter of my perception of Suzaku's ideology. I just want to be clear I think Suzaku has a terrible ideology and I think he's a pile of shit for being comfortable disregarding the hopes, dreams, and lives of all the people who aren't willing to patiently wait for HIM to get into a position to help them.
Anyway, I'm far more interested in the wall and the fact that the last mark was incomplete. If she was killed or somehow taken away she would likely have completed the last mark then there would be no more after she was no longer able to make them. The fact that she stopped mid way through a stroke gives the impression Lelouch's geass may have [had] a finite time limit. Whether it would matter if it's that long is debatable, but the implications do offer potential twists later.
@Uchiha Barles
You know I wrote out some massive post to reply to you but in the end decided its not worth continuing that discussion. I simply disagree with your points and your reasoning. Suzaku has a constantly changing set of goals and reasoning behind them its all to make himself feel better about killing his own father. The fact is if at any point he admits he's wrong then he has nothing left and will crumble all that he is and exists for is a lie made up in his own head. The only person he's ever helped by following the path he's chosen is the Emperor.
Hmm this is a interesting point. If the Geass did wear off after a certain amount of time its also possible that after that time limit Lelouch May be able to use his Geass on the same person a second time. The limit from before could theoretically be the result of the command having to be deleted by waiting out the duration before it can be used again. It seems there are a bit to many people around Lelouch has no ability to use his Geass on and I fully expect it to mutate again before the school arc ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
True. His geass may evolve into something that can be canceled at his will, but that might be a bit too overpowered.
I wonder who were the people Lelouch Geassed with a "no time limit" order...Quote:
Originally Posted by RyougaZell
Shirley is one of them, isn't she? I just don't remember the time lapse beetween the guinea pig order and Shirley's...
I hope it's not a way of telling us Euphie could be back.
Guinea pig order? As in the one Lelouch gave to test the duration of his Geass? I'm not understanding your post completely, but I there's no way Euphie's coming back using Lelouch's Geass.Quote:
Originally Posted by David75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Guinea Pig: Girl making cross marks. She gives an idea of how many days Lelouch's Geass lasts.
Lelouch Geassed Shirley to make her forget he is Zero and even she was in love with him.
So that Geass order will someday vanish. Remains the Empero one I guess.
Euphie: Are we totally sure she's dead? it seems so, but if for some reason she isn't, the Geass she received from Lelouch will also come to an end. On a side note, Cornelia being absent could also be explained with her taking care of the heavily injured but not dead Euphie... as cheesy as it seems.
To me, a lot of stress has been put on the time Lelouch's Geass lasts. I do not see why this time limit would not be used.
This is a Sunrise series, but there are limits. That Mai Hime/Otome simply refused to kill anyone off is one thing, that countless Gundam pilots have suffered direct hits, float into place and are engulfed by pink explosion clouds only to miraculously survive is another.Quote:
Originally Posted by David75
But Euphie was shot in the chest, received a sucking chest wound, bleed all over the place (and Suzaku), received immediate highly advanced medical attention, only to see the doctors shake their head and have Suzaku by her side as she grew pale, lost her sight, went cold, and died.
It safe to say she's dead. Now, I do see an increased likelyhood that Lelouch will use a body double of her to fuck with Suzaku now that he's used Nunnally against him, but that wouldn't be Euphie.
-----------------------------------
The time limit question is interesting. Still, Lelouch's Geass does permanent brain damage to the target (the pattern switch animation) which is why he could only use it once. So far, it seems that everyone's Geass has a weakness (Mao's being the need for concentration that was used against him and not being able to shut it off).
Though there were also the guards that noticed and reported over the radios a "suspicious person" who happened to be our wall-carver during the school festival last season (eps 22), so they may have pulled her then. She was in mid-carve then.
i hope suzaku dies.....
@insane - Absolute agreement.
@Ryll - Your idea sounds more plausible, though I still think there is something behind it, since geass doesn't really show such details for no reason.
Funnily enough, I have a feeling that Lelouch is the one that will die, if one is to die. He's by far my favourite character, but I just sudden imagined him dying after all his revenges (emperor dies), creating The United States of Japan, while Suzaku takes on a role in Brittania that lets him settle conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by insane
Life goes on. C.C. works as a pizza lady, and Kallen lives a quiet life. Zero lives on in people's hearts and his stories are passed down like a legend, but only a handful of people remember there was once a genius Brittanian student. His name was Lelouch Lamperouge.<Insert OP>
Now, feel free to burn down my vision. It's based on no evidence whatsoever.
That's like the most terrible tragedy that can befall Lelouch. He never wanted to be a hero, unlike Suzaku. He only wanted to live peacefully with Nunally. Take that away and he will turn to dust.
It's a Sunrise series so they'll probably be in cahoots one day. I just hope it doesn't take that path, or Suzaku just dies shortly after.
If Nunnally were to die... I wonder if Lelouch would continue as 'Zero' to extract revenge against the Emperor and Suzaku...
He will probably break, unless C.C. can manage to piece him back together and be his raison de etre.
I wonder if C.C. can really be the "raison d'être" of someone. Zero isn't even interrested in women (or men), or he doesn't look like he his.
She is MY raison d'etre. Unfortunately her's is pizza.
I think he actually cares about C.C. I have no way of knowing this, it's just that sometimes they talk very affectionately.
I think C.C. must be the loneliest character in Code Geass. And I reckon it's because of that she sneaks into the school grounds as well, against Lelouch's wishes. She doesn't really have anybody else than Lelouch, and their relationship had a pretty rocky beginning as well. And it's not made any easier by the fact C.C. basically needed to find a person who would be ready and willing to commit heinous acts if needed. Needless to say such a person isn't necessarily a prime candidate for a real friendship (or more). Also, C.C. was kept hidden from most people most of the time, and she didn't exactly have an official standing. She was just an important person to Lelouch but that's about it, and noone aside from Nunnally actually may be really sure a person like Lelouch cares for them till the end.
Although to me C.C seems affectionate and Lelouch always escapes with a few words of irony/joke. But I may be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji Ikari
Seems like CC tries to be like a mother to the one she gave Geass, both Mao and Lelouch had no parents (well Lelouch has a father, but not that it's a dear one...) . But I may be overinfluenced by Mao's arc
You guys do realize that C.C. has been watching Lelouch for a very long time its not like she just randomly met him and gave him power when she came out of the "gas container".
Before that scene in the very beginning of episode one C,C, is shown watching a young Suzaku and Lelouch climbing a small hill with sunflowers at the very start of the war. Fact is she needs specifically Lelouch not someone who looks or acts like him but specifically Lelouch and she can't let him die.
It could be because she needs someone of his mothers bloodline or it could be something completely different. Its clear over that time she has developed some level of feelings for him though. Lelouch on the other hand seems leery of her and is just using her as another piece in his game his worry about her is based on his secret getting out and needing her power more then anything else.
Thing is...would Lelouch abandon his plans for C.C. like he did for Nunnaly?
DDBen, I don't think it is that specific, but she certainly has known Marianne at the absolute latest sometime after Marianne's death. I can't even begin to speculate what connection the two of them have (though I've guessed they were both "witches" of the same religion we've seen that shares C.C.'s scar).
It's very possible that C.C. has known Marianne for some time before that. I believe that is the connection that brought her to Japan overlooking the two boys climb the hill. Whether it is as specific as you say and has to do with bloodline or is far simpler and only has to do with her acquaintance to Marianne, whatever that may be, only cliffhangers can tell!
--------------------
On the issue of CC and Lelouch being lovers, it's about as close as you can get to being that way. There was that scene where Kaguya came bursting in to declare herself as Zero's eventual wife, and he politely rebuked her by saying he's made a deal with the devil, and there's no way he could marry a princess.
Before that, there are the countless awkward scenes where Kallen stumbles in to seeing CC and Zero close, or CC revealed as taking Zero's place, or Nunnally asking if they are going out and CC answering in a very purposefully misunderstood manner.
More recently, Kallen has seen exactly how far she was from Zero all this time. Lelouch was constantly deceiving her, still doesn't tell her everything. If the scenes between her and CC in the consulate show anything other than a little comedy relief and fanservice, it has revealed to Kallen that CC is the only person Lelouch trusts completely and tells everything to.
Trust is of course, a huge part of the most intimate of relationships. That's a pretty big threat to Kallen. She's come closer to him while keeping her distance (saying she's doing it for Zero, not Lelouch, but still warming to him), but she still is so far from where CC stands.
There's only two possibilities for their relationship. Either they are lovers, Lelouch has leaned that way by declaring himself the warlock to her witch, etc. The alternative is an older sister/mother relationship, as CC had with Mao and occasionally crops up with the way she comforts Lelouch or rebukes his foolishness.
Still, I'd lean towards the lovers angle. One scene in the last season where Lelouch had just killed Euphie and is a little distraught, CC lays him down on her lap. That could be conveyed as the mother/sister relationship, but the words during that scene lean far more heavily towards lovers.
There's a huge amount going on in the dynamic of Kallen <> Lelouch <> C.C., and that's part of what makes this series so interesting. The complexity has really gone up since the second season began with Kallen knowing so much more.
@Ryllharu
I think your ignoring Shirley to much in what your saying. Fact is Lelouch was devastated when he had to erase her memory and at that point he considered what could have been between him and Shirley. At that point nothing could be done about it and shortly after his memory was modified. Now once again its fairly clear Shirley has developed feelings for Lelouch again so there is some potential for that relationship to take place as well.
I wouldn't look to deeply into Lelouch refusing the advances of a 12 year old(or however old she is) before going into a battle though. Plus she went by Godess "megumi" not Princess (Hime) as in Godess of victory. His statement was he already has a contract with a Akuma(Devil) and as things stand now he can't get along with Gods(Kami). It was just a fancy play on words in order to tell her he's not interested in being her husband.
Episode 23 DVD time stamp 18:00-18:26
I do agree Kallen is definitely interested at this point at least in Zero if not Lelouch. C.C. definitely has a interest in him as she really doesn't have a wide range of choices for men and she asked him in season one to call her name like a lover would when they were in the cave after he treated her wound. I don't think Lelouch is romantically considering any of them though as he seems more concerned about his personal goals and I retain the only woman that has made him stop and think about her like that is Shirley.
Lelouch is a siscon.
I wouldn't estimate Shirley that high. She was basically Lelouch's girl in the eyes of the others before anything had happened, before Lelouch became Zero, before C.C. or anything. You could say she might have been his girl for real if nothing in the series had ever happened and he would have lived a normal life with the rebellion alive only in his dreams. However, that's quite an empty point and I reckon any interest and feelings he might have had toward Shirley were born of nostalgia.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBen
Edit: 5000 posts! OMG. I am a spam spam spam poster!
Gratz Kraco! I'm barely over half way there, and I've been around for a year and a half longer!
No need to quote a timestamp, I was paraphrasing anyway. Like you said, it's not that important. While you are absolutely right on Kaguya, I don't think I was underestimating Shirley, I was completely disregarding her on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBen
As Kraco also pointed out, she was "Lelouch's girl" to the views of the Council members. Milly was happily messing with their love lives playing matchmaker. Shirely was completely fabricating a love triangle with Lelouch and Kallen, since he was approaching her more often for simple reasons or to check that his identity wasn't revealed.
Even though she was mindraped relatively early, I don't think she really compared anywhere in terms of emotional/relationship proximity that Kallen and C.C. did at similar periods.
Shirley had a simple infatuation for Lelouch, and while some of the twists were interesting, like when she called herself disgusting (paraphrase) for using her father's death to earn sympathy and a kiss from Lelouch, she just doesn't compare. Lelouch was hurt that he had to do that to her, but I'm sure he would have brushed her aside sooner or later.
Kallen on the other hand, got a utterly blind devotion to Zero. She would have done anything for him, and was obsessively proud of being the captain of his personal guard. She took the role incredibly serious. Even in this episode, she asked Lelouch if he really wanted her to stay in that position. That part is still at the forefront.
Only since the second season started, she has had to come to terms with a person she thought was an asshole for some of his views in the colony when they were together (ref. Refrain episode with Kallen's mother) and her beloved idol who she dreamed to get closest to. She was just as jealous of C.C. then as she is now. So now Kallen has a twisted little issue in her head. Perhaps Lelouch is far more worthy than she ever used to think he was. In addition, that distance imposed by his "secret identity" is now gone. While nowhere near as close to him as C.C. is, Kallen is still close enough to her amazing idol Zero that he feels comfortable without his helmet around her. That makes her the Black Knight he trusts the most. In turn giving her a little boost on her imaginary love scale. The question still remains, does she distrust Lelouch for lying to her more than she loves Zero and the faith/trust the revealed Lelouch has now placed in her?
While Shirley is interesting, she's still just a swimsuit-wearing diversion. I thought she was a lot more interesting when mindraped, but feverishly wondering why she had written a letter saying not only that Zero was Lelouch, but that for some reason, she was deeply in love with him. That Shirely was pulled in two different directions the same way Kallen is now. In her mind, how could she possibly have no idea who this person is, but somehow have written a letter revealing how torn she was over him?
I was a little disappointed finding out that she was back to normal. It probably comes as a relief to Lelouch, but it still makes it just a mindless, infatuated school girl romance.
That's why I say she is irrelevant.
Uhh... only comment is about the age...Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBen
When Lelouch and Nunally arrived at Japan, back when they were kids, they saw both Suzaku and Kaguya... and Kaguya looked about Nunnally's age at least. She ain't a kid... she's just not tall LOL.
How many years has it been since that? 8 years?
Wait why on earth would you assume that Shirley doesn't know Lelouch is Zero? No matter what was removed about Nannaly the fact is at the end of the previous season she knew exactly who he was and nobody else knew that she knew that much specifically so there is no reason for that to have changed. Add in her "guess" that Zero might be a lost Prince in R2 and I would say Shirley is going to be a lot more relevant then your giving her credit for. Also remember the student council still knows of Kallen and that she was in the Black Knights. For that to be true the events of the Black Knights taking over the school couldn't have been removed from there minds as without a wanted poster they have no other way they could have discovered that information.
They did? I don't remember that at all have a time stamp by any chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyougaZell
The way she's acting now certainly seems to account for her not remembering that Lelouch was Zero.
She was suspicious as hell about Lelouch after she found that letter. In addition, she was always shocked that Milly and Rivalz kept implying that she was being cold to Lelouch for some reason, while she believed that she barely even knew who he was. When he held them all as hostages, Shirley went right after him. With him coming back, she should have been just as suspicious.
Despite the fact that Zero was declared "dead" she still should not have disregarded her own handwriting.
In R2 episode 3, starting at 17:37, Shirley goes into how she's like to ride a cable car, etc, all the things Lelouch blocked out of her memory. He recalls all the events and then brings up his renewed hatred for the Emperor for not only messing with his memories, but Shirley's, Milly's, and Rivalz's as well.
(Before you counter with "The line actually says 'my fault for Shirley....and the president and Rivalz, their memories being manipulated by others like that.' so you're totally wrong Ryllharu etc, etc" it is open to interpretation that he is including Shirley into that subset, and her lack of suspicion towards him supports that.)
--
Now, I'm not saying she won't remember all these things later on. In fact, with the "guess" to Zero's identity that you and I have both remarked on, coupled with what I believe Nina's box contains (photos of Nunnally with the Council members), it seems very likely.
In the same way that C.C. touched Lelouch (though...she is special) it's possible that seeing photos of Nunnally may break the Emperor's rewrite on the three Council members. If not that, it may make them suspicious enough to supplant the false memories with real ones. We don't know enough about the Emperor's Geass to be sure, since Lelouch gained back all his old ones in addition to the fakes...or again, that could be mostly due to C.C.
If that does happen, Shirley will go right back to being suspicious as hell, which will make her very interesting once again, but will completely destroy any chances she has of having a relationship with Lelouch, which is what we had been discussing.
---------------------------
As for the young Kaguya, the flashback is in season 1, eps 23, 6:37 when she remarks that they finally meet.
First off I'm not talking about Shirley remembering the things Lelouch erased from her mind at least not just yet. I'm talking about the conclusions she came to after that happened based on her own hand writing. That would get rid of the cable car from relevance as Lelouch should have erased that memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
-----------------------------
As for the child "Kaguya" its very hard to give a exact date on her in that scene but considering Lelouch is what like 15-17 based on that I don't think 12 is a unreasonable age to say she was then as I would easily place her at 4 years younger then Lelouch.
The Kaguya offer is a political one. It is good for building trust and morale among the people. That is where the importance lies, since Zero actually declined the offer and chose the witch/devil, with no political (or any for that matter, since C.C. would stay even if he married the princess) advantage whatsoever.
Let us not forget that Lelouch is tsundere. Considering this, he definitely has feelings for C.C. This has been shown numerous times, and since it hasn't been mentioned yet, some examples are his reaction when C.C. pretended to go with Mao (which is odd because it is technically less trouble for him if he avoids a fight with a geass user) and the renewal of the contract from his end (which is not necessary if he only wanted C.C. as an ally).
Still, this is not up to the level of how he feels for Nunnally, but that is because of the time they have spent together. Lelouch also has an inherent bias towards relationships that has existed before he has decided on his revenge ie. Suzaku (effectively shutting everyone out except Nunnally).
I removed the link, The torrent was fake, I'm sorry for those who downloded the torrent.
[Chihiro] Code Geass Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 06 [H264][3128AD71] mkv
Real ep this time. HD.
Nice development and fights
GG Code Geass R2 Ep 6
GG is out aswell =D
After watching this ep I feel a strange urge to go buy some model kits...
I think all the flashy Gurren Nishiki awesomeness was to distract us from the fact that the plot advanced maybe 10 centimeters in this ep. But who cares about plot when you have super special awesome submarines, mid air combination/transformations (gotta admit that was pretty nice), random ignoble deaths of high level BK's and massive plot skips (school->aerial assault).
Wow... I want to kick Nunnally after that episode... at least she did follow Lelouch's request... and very good timing on the part of Rollo there.
Kallen rocked with the Gurren this time... scratch that... she owned them. Too bad she did not stop to destroy any of those three rounds, since her mission was to recover Lelouch.
Next episode looks very promising according to the preview.
-1 for Kallen not killing Suzaku, =(
Kallen sure pissed Anya off by messing with her Virtue...err..Mordred. Anya has otherwise been a completely forgettable and boring character. The jackass in the jet fighter at least has some personality.
Though I have to say I'm more impressed they actually managed to connect all those things to Kallen mid-fall and later mid-flight. That is some impressive ballistic maneuvering and intercept. The mobile net should have powered the Lancelot down, but I suppose Suzaku did say he had shielding against it now. I wonder if the new Radiation Arm has a bit of the Hadron Cannon mixed into it, like the Lancelot's new cannon has.
It's also too bad we lost Old Pimplehead. I hope that the Black Knights are going to be getting some reinforcements in terms of ace pilots soon. They lost quite a few good ones this time.
It's also kinda lame the Lancelot got even more overpowered. I know it has to match up to the now-powered Gurren, but it was already ridiculously overpowered. How many freaking special weapons does it have now?
I also got the urge to kick Nunnally a bit. Euphie was still stupid and misguided. The Britannians are far too used to suppressing the Elevens (and it looks like we might see more of that from the preview) not only from before during season 1, but especially after the Rebellion was knocked down and the Elevens punished.
The Autonomous Zone would never have worked then, there were far too many racist leaders in Britannia, and it certainly won't work now, since there are even more angry and racist Britannians nowadays.
...and now Nunnally believes in the same ideals that Suzaku claims to. There was only one consolation this episode. If it showed anything, Nunnally is still very much Lelouch's sister and Marianne's daughter. She's by no means stupid. Maybe she'll see Suzaku for what he has become.
Then again, she'd hate Lelouch for the same reasons.
Great action, too bad the OBK lost even more ace pilots. And I gotta say the Gurren's upgrades own everyone elses. Im starting to think the Nunnally should start to suspect that Zero is Lelouch after the last second scene right before the episode cuts to credits.
Yeah, the very last scene must make her suspicious, but I think even if she did know, that she would follow Euphie's ways because she is too pure and innocent. Nunally doesn't look further than at the first evil, so she will never be able to see that what Britannia is doing is wrong and always will be. And that totally sucks balls, because Lelouch is put in an awful position, one that he doesn't deserve by far.
God I hate Suzaku, playing innocent and all in front of Nunally, and god I hate Britannia, and god do I hate that this series had to turn out like this and then end so soon with just a lot of filler fighting-scenes. I think I've never been so angry at an anime, let alone at just a single episode.
(No need to comment the fighting for me since it was totally awesome and Karen rocked 3 knights of rounds at the same time).
urgh, Do those """" who put that fake file up ever get punished? Bandwidth is precious!!!
I am not very bothered. Just bothered enough to ask who those asshole really are. I be pissed if the DVD I bought from Walmart comes back with this flashing fake
Hmmm I don't know what to think about this episode... sure the new Guren is awesome etc. but for some reason I'm totally disappointed about that british commander... he was just plain stupid, like prince clovis (or how he was called, the guy in the first episodes). That was really boring to look at... nearly no resistance at all until the Knights etc. came to help him...he was just "there" and saying some things sometimes, so the viewer doesn't forget about him and when he wasn't needed anymore they made him do something stupid and he died.... It just looked so fake and like a setup, that he was used for this porpuse isn't what is so bad about it, but that they made it so obvious is...
I don't know but it felt like the place, where they were fighting, was just there to introduce the new Guren.. it was simply pointless and boring..
ahh, difficult to explain what I meant to say..its just that it was over too quickly.
btw nunally looks like she is 4 years older now or so... didn't just 1 year pass?
This was a freaking beautiful episode. Look's like Lelouche's reason to destroy the empire is going to have to mature. "It's all for Nunnaly's sake!"...stfu. Evil is evil. Get rid of it. I can't wait to see how this plays out. Other than him actually saving her, AND things going back to what they were in season 1, between him and her, I don't see how they can fuck this up.
Oh, and the instant mid-fall weapon/engine/shield/flight upgrade brough on some serious loling.
Yougins grow rather quickly over the timespan of a year. Though, I don't really recall how old she was before. I'm thinking she's around 16 now.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
Best episode yet in season 2. This is everything that Code Geass stands for.
Wow, Kallen's Strike err.. new Guren is ridiculous...I like that whole little war between technologies with Lloyd and that Indian lady.
By the way, what's the deal with Eclipse constantly changing the spelling of Karen/Kallen's name? Is it Karen when someone on the Brittania side says it, and Kallen for the Japanese side?
I haven't seen the subbed episode, but if there is any reason that should be it. It is also noted in wiki that her English name is Kallen while her Japanese name is Karen. It makes sense since she probably would prefer to be called by a japanese name when amongst her comrades.
Hmm. I am not so sure about this episode. I am never a fan of mech upgrades in code geass, since I don't find charm in it. It is simply not what the show is about, so I understand the comments about the episode ending too fast since it was mainly just mech battles.
I am glad that Lelouch still could not lie to Nunnally. His claim that she is still his raison d'etre is also good to hear. The fact that he respect her will despite it trampling all over his own is most admirable. What to do now though? Will Nunnally really hate Lelouch for all that he has done for her? If that ever happened, I would want her to die. That would simply be the pinnacle of naivety and betrayal, and that would completely destroy Lelouch, which will consequently harm C.C. C.C. vs Nunnally was never a contest.
I think that's to highlight the difference between them. To the Britannians she's Karen Staldfedt daughter of some important noble guy. To her Japanese friends and herself she's Kozuki Kallen, which I suppose is what her mother wanted to name her.
Anyway, I won't be satisfied with her until she says something along the lines of "This hand of mine is burning red!" before attacking one of the named enemies.
And something I have to shake my fist at Sunrise for. Kallen has always been the only Suzaku/Knight of Rounds caliber pilot in OotBk. Now there are basically 3 Suzakus. She can't realistically keep soloing them all. Even if we toss Rollo and Toudou into the mix they both use mass produced suits. Custom always beats mass produced so how do they plan to even the playing field.
Yeah but Rollo is pure hax. He doesn't need skill or equipment to beat other mechs.
The actual plot parts of this episode overall were great. How Rollo managed to get Lelouch out of the spot of talking to Nannaly on the phone was nice to see. Apparently Lelouch is officially immune to Rollo at this point and the fact he could possibly give the immunity to say Kallen and use Rollo to Pause the enemy forces seems like it could be really vicious in battle. I don't mind Nannaly taking over Euphie's goal either as thats completely in character for her but as has been stated it has below zero chance of actually working. It was also nice to see her actively questioning Suzaku during this episode.
The Mech fights while entertaining we are getting to much of a cluster of godly mechs seriously whats powering these things at this point? The worst offender remains Suzaku's Lancelot and its billion weapons/upgrades. At least the Gurren upgrade was rather massive and somewhat justified the new massive power boost. I REALLY dislike this new Lancelot shield of his more then the gun pack upgrade its just flat out silly.
I'm also not a fan of the random deaths going on with the 4 holy blades. The first one at least went down with some honor this one was kind of like a afterthought so they could fire the voice actor or something.
I REALLY dislike EVERYONE managing to show up for this decisive battle in the middle of nowhere. One would think Zero's surprise attack would catch one of these factions off guard instead of having everyone of note manage to all arrive at the same relative time in the middle of nowhere. Given all the parties had the flight route so I can somewhat suspend my disbelief but the resulting battle seemed cluttered and resulted in the need for a random death.
Overall it was a solid episode one that still seems like we are getting setup and situated for this season I look forward to when the plot actually gets moving instead of still trying to undo 24-25.
Ah, the feeling of having your love ones siding with your enemy.. :(
Lord Lyold's screaming cracked me up.
Lelouch is not immune to Rollo's Geass. Didn't you see the red sphere shoot out? Rollo stopped it before it hit Lelouch, ensuring that he was not within the boundary when he used it on Suzaku, giving Lelouch just enough time to talk to Nunnally.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBen
The only ones that should have showed up in time to fight the Black Knights was Guilford, and the Jet-Fighter Jackass. Guilford because he was with Lloyd and Cecile, and the Jet-Fighter Jackass because his Knightmare is obviously much faster when in that form. Suzaku especially was just riding in a plane, one that should not have been any faster than the ones carrying the Black Knights. Assuming there was no warning, Suzaku should have taken just as long to get there as the Black Knights did, giving them plenty of time to capture Nunnally.
Ahh your right I didn't pay attention to that one, I was assuming that when he told lelouch the "weakness" of his Geass that would somehow allow him to be uneffected. Apparently incorrectly for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Thats basically how I felt about it but without in episode timestamps we can't be completely sure of this. Thing is the black Knight had some setup to do after "escaping" so its possible they had enough time but I still found it really weak to have Suzaku find out the Black Knights are magically gone then turn around and be there in time to stop them after they expressly state it should take atleast a hour for help to show up. I don't buy the guys Jet-Lancelot being able to make up an hour difference either for that matter. Frankly him capturing Nannally and then having her tell him exactly what she wanted and having to let her go would have had more overall impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
The focus of this ep seems to be the fight at the end, but there was one really cool detail in the middle of the ep that will push this story forward. "Brother" and "Killing all the gods as an objective". We now know what the Emperor and V.V. is up to. Could it be that C.C.'s mission is to counter that? Could that be why Lelouch's mother was killed? What if she made a contract with C.C. in order to stop V.V. or something like that? That could explain her death.
Interesting theory it could explain why C.C. seems to know Lelouche's mother. Does anyone think that the Emperor has known V.V. since childhood because of the "nii-san" comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji Ikari
Or maybe they are actually blood related, making V.V. Lelouch's uncle.
WTF, V.V. is a guy!??!?
That was made known atleast since lelouchs and CC's conversation last episode.
Welcome to Japan my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Yeah it's like the God of War "fuck you" button. Press it, here you're done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Board of Command
I don't know who had this idea .... More Suzakus is like ... cloning Hitler in the middle of WW2. As if one ain't enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
It's actually nice that Nunnaly tried to follow in Suzaku's and Euphie's ideals. I mean, Zero did agree to Euphie's plans, and were it not for tragedy, it might've worked. It's too bad about a few things though, she is being used, so there's almost no way she knows everything she ought to if she's going to try this. Also, the conditions aren't the same. The Japanese at large don't know that Euphie was under the influence of Geass when she slaughtered them oh so hillariously. They'll never trust a Britannian again. It was a nice try for a sweet little girl though. I'm awaiting the carnage that's about to happen with so much glee it's unbelilevable.
I have a question, why does Lyod scream out in pain (*itaaaaaaa*) when the lancelot got hit slighty by a Haken from Kallen?
Or was it because he is angry that the Gurren is stronger than his own Mecha?
and btw... the OBK does have a new ace pilot (because some people said that they need more good pilots)...namely Viletta... at least it is most likely that she switched sides, even though she might only do it because she is threatened... or maybe because of Ogi...
In a sense Lelouch got served exactly what he ordered. It's pretty obvious Nunnally knows even less of the real situation of the Japanese than Euphie. She's blind and tied to a chair and was heavily sheltered by Lelouch. And now she's in a position where those around her are free to feed her whatever kind of information they want. If Lelouch hadn't kept her so detached from the troubles of the world, she might have had far more sympathy for Zero's ways. It certainly backfired now. His reason for fighting became the very flaw of the plan.
Somehow very very little in this second season has so far gone Lelouch's way.
Random blurb. C.C talking to Lelouch with Cheese-kun in her 'underwear' was awesome. I'm glad they still managed to work in some fanservice.
And Kraco you make a good point, Zero seems to be operating at a post time skip Light level this season. Whenever he has managed to pull something off it's been quickly countered with something even better (or worse) that gets him into hot water again. He really needs a decisive victory of some sort but I can't imagine what could give him one now that Nunally is going to be his adversary and there are three KoR's to thwart any martial plans. Maybe he'll really give up next ep and run off to China or something.
For some reason he seems to be in a match with that indian lady over who is the best at creating incredible Knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
When his lancelot was hit, he took it to himself too as his loss against her.
Moreover you could add that he somatizes anything related to his baby the lancelot.
I think Nunnally is far, far smarter than Euphie. Sure, she may know less about the plight of the Japanese primarily because first Lelouch and Suzaku, and later just Lelouch, sheltered her from it all. She was blind and helpless during the first war, and there was the scene where she asked what the smell was, and Lelouch lied to her instead of telling her it was bodies. Once at the Academy, she was isolated from a lot of the other students (though everyone knew of her), and never left the grounds at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
Still, unlike Euphemia, who was coddled by her sister to excess, Nunnally experienced first hand the real horrors of the world. She laid underneath Marianne's dead body for some time, possibly hours.
If anything, Nunnally may better understand the reasons why she wants to follow in Euphie's footsteps, instead of naively believing everyone in the world is capable of sweetness and light.
Nunnally was a bit underused last season, but I've still have a great deal of hope for her. She's Marianne's daughter and she's an absolute wild card. If the "Flash of Lightning" was as great as everyone keeps saying she is, enough to make Cornelia blush when Schnizel compares the two (season 1 eps 21), then Nunnally will probably be just as capable as her brother. She's incredibly observant for being "helpless and blind" as we saw many, many times, from the first meeting with C.C., to Nina's table-play, and knowing Suzaku and Euphie through touch alone.
If anything, I think Nunnally won't simply take what others feed her. She's more than intuitive enough to figure out when people are lying to her, and probably capable enough to figure out what's really going on and then make the appropriate choices. I think she's far more capable of seeking out her own answers, asking people, and then determining if she's being fed information. Euphie slowly figured out she was a meaningless figurehead. Nunnally would know right away.
Will these cause even more problems for Lelouch? Absolutely. But I don't think they may be merely from a goal-and-ethical standpoint. Perhaps more politically and tactically.
If you really think about it, in truth, we know next to nothing about her.
Lelouch doesn't want to lie to her because she's the last thing that makes him a human, rather than a demon or anything as bad as you like. She's his last ray of hope for a world of ease and peace.
In reality she's also the one that best knows Lelouch. And it's not just because she's blond and blind people are said to decipher people better. She probably uses that too, but she has been knowing Lelouch like forever. She probably also is incredibly smart, she could be to the level of Lelouch, at least I hope so. So to me there's no way she could be fed anything, as Ryllharu suggests. Lelouch also doesn't even want to try because he knows her sister would see through it clearly, no matter how he tries to hide things.
Regarding the only time we witnessed Lelouch obviously lying to her, which Ryllharu mentioned, it's very probable Nunally knew. As you said, she had her mom's dead body on her for some time and was heavily wonded at the same time. She probably knows too well what it's like to be in a place with dead people. So she probably knew her brother lied to her that time, and said nothing about it cause she also knew he did this
to protect her.
So like you I hope they use Nunally the right way.
I don't think she knows Lelouch the best though, not by a long shot. He may say he'll never lie to her (and he has in the past, several times. About who C.C. is.), but he omits a lot. In fact, it's better to say he doesn't tell her anything. He has coddled her since she was hurt in the attack the same way Cornelia did to Euphie.
I just have a lot more faith in Nunnally. I think she's a little more of a Cornelia than a Euphiemia. We know nothing about how well she does in school, what she knows and doesn't know, who she's talked to, what she did when Lelouch and the rest of the Council weren't around, etc. People don't lie to her very often, and she certainly can tell when people are not being entirely forthcoming with her. Nunnally always comes off as trustworthy and innocent because she looks so frail.
But we learned in this episode that the Emperor didn't put her here as the replacement Governor-General. She asked for it.
If anyone, C.C. knows the most about Lelouch. She was his confidant all of last season, and who knows what she learned from him when they made their contract, what Marianne has told her, and what she knew from a long time ago.
Kallen is catching up, as he can finally confide in her as well, but we know he simply doesn't tell her everything the same way he bounces ideas off C.C. (or was he simply trying to prove his own intelligence to C.C. back in season 1?).
not so much to say about this ep (well, you guys always blow everything out of proportion, dont change please :P), but...they really want you to hate Suzaku, don they?
Wah, i want him dead, please. thats all :-(
Oh, for me, I don't want him dead, must be some kind of misconception here. I want him tortured like Griffith was in Berserk only longer, then pissed on, publically humiliated, and then I want him to experience first hand why his path is the wrong one. Then I want him to die full of regrets.
You did fine with School Days, and all of us blew that one way out of proportion. Join the fun here.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
But yeah, the writers gave us more than enough here. We don't even have to try and hate him in this episode. It was all too easy.
Why so much hate for Suzaku? :-(. Anyway, some good points were made about Nunally. She's potentially really smart considering her supposed pedigree, and being blind and unable to move probably forces her to become more empathetic and intutive. The problem is, she's still blind and immobile. Who's she going to confide in? What's going to stop someone from, say, assuring her that the two of them are the only ones in a room when a important conversation is occuring, when in fact there may be a third party, or more, present. The only people in Britannia that she can really trust, in my opinion, are Suzaku and Cornelia. Cornelia's missing in action, and Suzaku can't be there all the time. Suzaku's also going to want to protect her. In that interest, he's probably going to continue sheltering her. Funny guy this Suzaku. Her only effectiveness, it seems to me, will be that of an image, a ray of hope you might say, because I definitely don't see her developing any real political clout otherwise. If she does though...fantastic, more anal rapage for Lelouche...which 'll make his eventual victory all that much sweeter xD.
Im pretty sure if you go back and read the 745623475629874 posts from season one you know why that most of us hates him. Though I imagine you'll also find some reasons not to hate him aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha Barles
Anyway I have the feeling that this series will not end in Lelouche's victory, I think it will be more mixed ending that somehow give Lelouche what he wants yet not exactly in the way he expected. I know im being kind of vague here but knowing Sunrise i might be giving them too much credit.
I think I'm getting close to the point where I don't care much for the series. I don't understand why Lelouch isn't asking C.C.'s more questions -- about geass, V.V. and her goals. Shouldn't it be clear the mystery behind geass plays an important part of Britainnia's control?