Haha, you missed the point of the argument entirely, its no wonder your complaining.
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Haha, you missed the point of the argument entirely, its no wonder your complaining.
yea... its actually the first time i hear about a #1 male claymore...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
Just doing some rereading of the manga trying to find out if there's been mentioning of a male being the strongest I found this that might help clearify how Claymores are created.
http://yngve-g.net/Gallery/Claymore%20v01%20052.jpg
http://yngve-g.net/Gallery/Claymore%20v01%20053.jpg
Yes..that was exactly my point *slaps forehead* and since I'm not exactly stupid and absolutely not quickly confused by shiney words...stop being confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Uh, now Im the one confused. If your not confused by shiny words as you call them, how am I confusing?
And just because you are confused or dont like the way we talk doesnt give you the right to stop us. There are actually people who understand it too.
And the point of the last post was that you are not exactly smart either, but since you say otherwise Ill take your word for it.
But since this is the claymore thread all this talk stops here. Reply if you must but this will be my last post on this topic.
BTW, its interesting to know some details about the creation of claymores, but the actual process still remains a mystery I guess.
About the number 1 male claymore, I think the person that wrote about that was assuming so based on the previously discussed issue of male claymores being generally stronger than female ones. Im not sure if this is true though, since all I remember being said was that they turned to youmas almost immediately.
Yeah it's still speculations, but since male are stronger ... but unstable. It makes (to me) no doubt that Male n°1 will rule over women n°1.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Thats a tad sexist, but biologically speaking I agree with you. I think the reasoning they based the immediate youma transformation of males on is the aggressive nature (due to hormones mainly) of males in general. It could also be asserting that males generally dont or have little self-control, but I prefer the other one.
If they follow this line of thought when it comes to overall physical power as well, then your assumptions have a good chance of being accurate.
In general animes lacks something that would be cool, a real hero-like entrance like.
The crazy bitch awakened, now she'll be going after Raki or Clare, there is no way they can match her firepower. Now a real hero-like entrance would be;a character not introduced yet in the series, interjecting between the bad guy and the main/side character, beating the crap out of the bad guy with one move without any effort. (If anyone knows an anime where such scenario takes place ...)
Now, everyone expects Raki to become a claymore, but now I would like the story to be innovative and surprise us with some shit that even a Deadfire on crack wouldn't have expected.
I think that would be a letdown, quite honestly.
Whether Raki becomes a claymore or not doesn't matter much. But bringing in a new, even stronger character is what literary critics would call "Deus ex Machina". Basically, "oh, here's this insane tangled problem, and ... whoops, one of the gods descended and fixed it! Case closed, we're done, thanks for playing."
The reason we don't see that sort of thing is that it's extremely unsatisfying. It's just a bad way to deal with a storyline.
Raki becoming a Claymore would be extremely weak from a storytelling perspective, I think. Pretty much every principle character in the story is an inhuman badass killing machine except him, and the fact that he is just joe average who's stuck in the world of demons and blonde Terminators is what affords his existence any relevance to the plot (that and he's a guy in a story full of girls, but I don't think THAT will be played upon much).
I would call Irene's random appearance to save Clare a hero-like entrance as situation you described, though she has been introduced so it's not exactly the same. If Irene has been hiding out all these years what the hell was she doing wandering the forest right where Clare was with her sword (I'm assuming she had her claymore but she could probably have done what she did to Ophelia with just a pocket knife).Quote:
Originally Posted by Inazuma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Y
I find the similarity in our lines of thought slightly unsettling. Just slightly, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
Agreed that her showing up was pretty much deus ex machina. However, just because she's hidden her yoki doesn't mean she's unable to sense it. My guess is she picked up on traces of the battle (possibly because of the awakened and whatnot) from a couple miles off and decided to go take a closer look. It's weak, but it's not as weak as "she was just wandering through the woods and stumbled across them" at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
But whatever. Irene's still being alive at all is sort of a contrived device to help Clare develop as a fighter. I think the scenario involving Ophelia ended up with a bunch of possible bad resolutions, and Irene showing up and saving the day was probably the least bad choice.
Irene sensed Teresa's Yoki, from Clare, and that is why she investigated the fight. "I came after sensing a nostalgic presence, but I know neither of the faces here." So she can obviously still sense Yoki very well. I don't think a large amount of Yoki is necessary for sensing it, since Clare is such a low number, yet her speciality is Yoki sensing. Also this example with Irene.Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
I also agree that it's super plot convenience for Irene to show up, but it's palatable. It further unites the past with the present storyline and now gives a valid reason for why some powerful Claymore, other than the Slashers, would help Clare.
wow, this thread is unbelievably huge. (400+ posts!)
yup, I totally forgot about her saying that ... but you're right. Helps justify things a bit...
Well... When the hero/heroine is faced against an impossible challenge, it becomes pretty obvious that someone will probably come in and save the hero. It's "who" saves the hero that makes it interesting in my opinion. I'd prefer to see the hero saved rather than him/her getting some super power-up and defeating the enemy.
I wasn't expecting it to be be Irene who saves Clare. I also thought it would be some person who hasn't been introduced yet. To me, the whole "I sensed a nostalgic presense" was a really nice touch and built a strong support as to why Irene would be there in the first place.
As for the hero-like entrances, what else could the writer have done though? Make Ophelia fall for Clare's trick? Give Clare a power-up? Maybe he shouldn't have gone this route at all?
If Ophelia fell for Clare's trick, I'm sure Ophelia would just pick up her sense again later and then we get a repeat of events again. If Clare got a power up it would just be dull and boring.
I personally like the way everything went.
I wouldn't count on that. If all the males awakened very soon, it would mean they would have no special techniques, only lots of raw power. That counts for much, but as we saw with the male Awakened, with suitable techniques you can render strong raw power meaningless. So, a strong male Claymore would be only a hypothetical and unlikely one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inazuma
Ophelia has been an Awakened being for a very short time now. All she has ever done has been fighting with her claymore as a Claymore. If she now immediately goes after Clare and Irene, she wouldn't actually be a strong Awakened but one that doesn't yet know what she's doing. She hasn't had time to explore has new status and possible powers. So, she's not so dangerous yet. Not as dangerous as she could be after a while, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inazuma
I don't know about that. So in a fight between two Claymores, you would give the disadvantage to the Claymore who Awakens during the fight, since the Claymore hasn't adjusted yet? Given, she won't be as powerful as an experienced Awakened being, but she has to be stronger than when she wasn't Awakened.
I don't think it's really feasible for a claymore to really fully awaken in the course of a battle. At least, not a reasonably well-trained one.
We've seen 3 awakenings. Ophelia's was unusual both in that she didn't realize she was awakening, and in that she didn't awaken due to going over the line during a fight -- she just sort of mentally destabilized.
Clare and Priscilla both crossed the threshold by accident, though. Clare briefly to deliver a decisive blow, and Priscilla gradually trying to win against Teresa. In both cases, their inhibitions kicked in after they crossed the line, causing them to at least momentarily become less effective in combat. After all, nobody wants to turn into the thing they most hate.
Something like this:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/fi.../yokigraph.png
In this case, the claymore that awakens during combat against an opponent without the mercy that doomed Teresa would definitely not have a good time, because they'd experience that power drop before the transformation and loss of inhibitions. Not to mention they're clearly already at a disadvantage if they're pushed to the point that awakening happens.
On the other hand, the Slashers have already crossed that line and come back. They're awakened, and have little need of those inhibitions, as far as we can tell. That means they can follow the blue line instead of the red one, and things will go a little better.
Well, not necessarily. It of course also depends on the opponent. If you are fighting against another Claymore who suddenly turns into a monster, you are basically facing a totally new opponent. That's a hindrance for sure. However, I don't really think it's wise to think by default that Awakened beings are somehow always superior compared to Claymores. Claymores are terminator like cool and composed killing machines (or they should be), whereas Awakened beings are more instinct driven demons, with varying degrees of their human wits remaining. Two quite different creatures, both of which have some obvious strengths yet also obvious weaknesses.
If the Awakened beings were always so superior, we wouldn't have ever seen or heard of them being defeated by Claymores. And this time is no different, all the way down to the numbers: We have two Claymores against one Ophelia The Awakened: Clare and Irene.
I dont think awakened beings fight using techniques, nor do they need to. If you remember the Priscilla awakening, she practically destroyed everyone without having any time to adjust to her new body. She could use it quite efficiently as soon as she went over the limit (like the extending finger attack and the flying at the end), so knowing what the body can do is probably attributed more to instinct rather than actually trying it out for a test drive.
EDIT - I also realized that becoming an awakened being doesnt only give the former claymore a bloodthirst and hunger for flesh, but also, to put it simply, evil. I remember Priscilla wanting to fight Teresa one on one because she feels it is unfair to attack her with the whole team, but later on kills Teresa by tricking her in the most disgusting (be it simple) way possbile. So, does this mean that all awakened beings are devious bastards despite who they were before?
Hmm... That could be true, yes. Well, that does change two things: Awakened beings are more dangerous in the beginning but due to an inability to develop, they remain as they are and grant better chances for the Claymores facing them as time goes by.
Still, it would certainly mean, then, that Clare and Irene would face harder times when Ophelia finds them. However, if they survive the initial clash there's little to worry about later. In fact, now that I think of it, you're stance is more likely. The male Awakened pretty much owned in the beginning of the fight against the Claymores, but it couldn't adapt at all nearing the end when Clare and Miria got their act together.
Ah, well, I have to give in that much. Although it only reinforces my other point: That Awakened beings are beasts; once you get to know how they think (or just act according to their instincts) you are already halfway to the victory.
sorry, comp, I just don't see it... I'm sure it's feasible that there's a time when a freshly Awakanened is in despair and loses her cool, making her less effective, but that doesn't NEED to be. Priscilla suddenly started crying, as did Ophelia, but that was a very good battle strategy for one, while the other wasn't fighting (though it wouldn't have worked on Clare).
The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness, despite a linear relationship between Yoki level and effectiveness up to that point. The flash of light, notable physical distortion and shock of onlookers has pointed to the idea that Awakening increases your Yoki by a sudden and great amount. The result would be a 'range' of 'combat effectiveness' that a freshly Awakened Being would fall into depending on how well she could utilize this power straight from the start.
There's also the idea that a lack of morals / attainment of evil can empower the fighter, even if they aren't adjusted to using all of their newly gained powers.
Again, it all depends on how Yoki is effectively utilized to achieve this so called 'combat effectivness'. Clare, who has a terrible rank in the organization and a very small Yoki, manages to utilize it very well, effectively trumping opponents with much higher Yoki. Not all Claymore have the same linear combat effectivness to Yoki relationship.
And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at. In such a case, an opponent's effectiveness might go DOWN against a Yoki reader because their Yoki is going up and making their attacks more visible. It also leaves out situational elements like a pre-existing relationship with the opponent (Teresa and Priscilla), terrain, fatigue, knowledge of the others' abilities and many more things that you'd have to keep in mind to determine 'combat effectiveness' which can really only be evaluated on a case-by-base, opponent-by-opponent basis.
I'd say that the process is sort of fusion, the blood get fused(not sure that's even a word)in the same way that you clean your blood in the hospital, except instead of getting your own purified blood back you get yoma blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
And like mentioned before, maybe they somehow transplant some yoma organs or so in the stomach (seeing the bandits reaction to teresa) but then again, a blow to the stomach region should destroy that part of the yoma power. I know I'm ripping up old discussions so sorry.
It was an effective strategy for Priscilla against a merciful opponent. Not so much against a merciless one. Remembering that most claymores are, in fact, pretty much merciless, I don't see this as being a sound strategy in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
No, there's a gap between the "point of no return" and actual transformation, during which inhibitions and humanity erode. If a claymore were to embrace that she was going to awaken and power through it uninhibited, then this dropoff wouldn't happen.Quote:
The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness
The power drop I'm suggesting is a function not of actual yoki emitted, nor of actual strength, but of psychology and training. Once the claymore has fully awakened, there's no more inhibitions or training getting in the way, and she'll be able to fully utilize her powers.
IT'S OVER 9000!Quote:
And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at.
But seriously, yes, I agree. There's no good way to numerically compare combat abilities. That's what's interesting about shounen action as a genre: weaker opponents can muster unexpected strength or skill and defeat stronger opponents.
Clare's ability to read yoki is comparable to Jujitsu -- the more power (as yoki) you send at her, the more effective she is at turning that power aside or against you, up to the point that she can't keep up with your movements, at least. But in a competition of brute strength -- in Teresa versus Priscilla, or Irene versus Ophelia, or Clare versus any ordinary yoma she's faced before, more yoki released = more effective.
In other words, this is a graph not of how good a given claymore is in comparison to other claymores, but how good she is in comparison to herself. I think that's still within the realm of the meaningful.
14 with some one-armed fetish:
http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/...5d.mkv.torrent
Thanks Munsu! :)
Well, it didn't end up being Clare's optimal technique. Perhaps she will find another, more suitable one at some point. Even though Irene isn't going to need her hand back anymore.
But nevertheless, even without being optimal, it's still easily at a level that will grant her better chances against any opponent.
I don't think the Clare would be able to create her own technique, being weak and all. I guess its best for Clare to further improve the skills she has now (flash sword and yoki reading) to make it more effective, its a better lead than starting at zero with a new technique.
That might be so. But it would also be a weakness to have only one good technique. If the opponent happens to know how to deal with that attack, then she would be at that zero point no matter what, because according to Irene she won't ever be extremely good at the Flash sword, thus creating a vulnerability.
I didnt really like that episode. It made so many things seem strange. Ive already noted earlier that transforming into an awakened being will automatically make you evil (as seen in Priscilla's case). In the case of Ophelia, this does not seem to be the so. It actually seemed like most of her personality remained (considering how twisted she originally was), and was even a better person than when she was a claymore.
I also didnt like how Ophelia noted that Clare's strength and speed have both increased even when she wasnt using the flash sword. It just seemed like too traditional a path to increase all parameters and level up after a training session.
The use of flash sword in that battle was idiotic. She used it as a grinder? What the hell happened to the brains in this show. Clare didnt seem as stupid before. I know its because of Clare continuing Ophelia's will and all that bullshit considering they have the same enemy, but I would have hoped that she has learned from Teresa's example not to be fooled by youma-talk (since she hasnt fallen for it since the beginning of the series, and now this?) Ive never really seen a hero cheered on by her opponent before, and it didnt really look right at all.
But the thing Im most pissed about is how Raki didnt appear in her head when she was remembering the things/people she would leave behind if she died, the poor guy.
Next episode.
Clare : The Composite Claymore I
Seriously, they gonna just mix every best claymore inside Clare to turn her into a super claymore ?
The grinder thing as you said was really idiotic.. Clare could already killed Ophelia at the early part of the battle. The time where she cut off both arms and went for the body, Why did she not cut Ophelia's head off? instead just slashing her body. Clearly Ophelia was suprise and caught off guard.. Clare could have finish her sooner..:D Kinda sad that Raki's face did not show up..
Clare used the flash sword as a "grinder", because she wanted to beat Ophelia by her rules. Clare respected Ophelia (as another warrior) and she also understands that Ophelia didn't choose to be an awakened being, like any other Claymore. And the fact that Ophelia spoke to Clare in her "human" form means that Clare wouldn't do anything despicable like aiming directly at her tail. I don't really see it as sympathy, but just Clare giving Oheplia the respect she deserves, as a Claymore.
Wow, you guys are really dismissing everything that has happened in the series to Clare till now. You guys are missing the point that by having Raki by her side in her journey, she has become more "human" and that's what has ultimately prevented her from fully awekening. Of course, that in itself has some counter-effects. She becomes more sympathetic towards other characters for starters.
Second, she wasn't remembering poeple she would leave behind if she died... she was thinking if she was fit to take revenge for Teresa and carry her flesh and blood, as it was pointed out earlier by Irene. She was also thinking about she being the one that survived Teresa. You can also see it parallel to Raki, in that she didn't want to put him in the same position she was in her flashback, so I don't see the problem of them not showing Raki.
Third, since the start of the series there has been an underlying theme that Claymores want to die as humans, and other Claymores are sympathetic to letting them have that dying wish, so not only was Clare probably thinking of taking on Ophellias will, but also giving her the chance to die human, by completely destroying the yoma portion. She probably read between the lines and thought that Ophellia had already surrendered, so didn't really think about the dangers of doing what she did.
And becoming Awakened automatically not making you evil is a bad thing? Please, character and story complexity is never a bad thing. You seem to want a simple hack and slash series with no dilemmas and one dimensional characters.
I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla.
Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).
Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.
Im not saying Clare should be less symphatetic or colder, but as the situation was, there really was no room nor reason for such things, also in consideration of her past experiences.
It is precisely the turn of events that made this episode a hack and slash one for me. As oyabin earlier stated, with the flash sword, she could have sliced Ophelia's head off instead of scratching her body parts like she did. Why? No real reason, except because there needs to be more action inserted (yes, typical of hack and slash shows).
Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.
Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).
When watching that scene, I got the feeling Ophelia suggested that if Clare can't proceed through her whole body, she isn't strong enough to ever face Priscilla. And Clare did that just to prove it to herself, not Ophelia. When she got tired in the middle, Ophelia stabbed her partly to show she was right: Clare doesn't have the power, and partly to encourage her forward. Though I'm not entirely sure if Ophelia wanted Clare to exceed her limits as well, sharing the fate of turning into a yoma, or really succeed and release Ophelia from that ill fate.
Yeah, but this was the first thing you posted when you said you didn't like the episode, so it can be easilly understood that you think it's a bad turn on events. You also need to understand that no one in this show has been shown to detest Awakened beings more than Ophellia, and you need to take that into consideration after she was shocked after seeing her reflection. So it's not really strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I was editing my post while you posted, so you probably missed it. But she was thinking more of how she was the one that survived Teresa, and if she's worthy of carrying her blood and flesh... again, that's the whole point of this episode, she making good by Teresa as Irene had pointed out earlier on the importance of she having Teresa's flesh in her etc.Quote:
Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).
Now, if we saw more flashbacks, even ones showing Raki I can already see you guys posting "Damnit, what a horrible episode, it was all flashbacks". Simply draw a parallel with the situation she was in when she was little and with Raki currently, that should be enough.
Quote:
Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.
Sorry, but as it has been portrayed many times before, these Claymores are very frail girls with tragic pasts. They have real sense of comradery, especially preventing other Claymores from dying as Yomas. Hence the importance of the second episode. All we know about Awakened beings has to be taken as grains of salt, none can be taken as absolute truths because the information we have gathered are from unreliable sources or sources that really don't know much. So if Clare saw that Ophellia still had some humanity in her, there's no reason for her not to try and save it.Quote:
Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.
I just think you dislike the anime throwing out all your previous theories. It surprised you, and it pisses you off.
You answered it yourself. Yes it was stupid, and the series itself aknowledges it. Clare has been shown to be very irrational in the past, so there's no real surprise here.Quote:
Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).
This episode was really good, and opened many new doors but you guys only notice the "bad" things from the episode. Heck, we saw a new character called Rafaela who was ranked 5, and Irene said that she probably couldn't beat her even with both her arms. So what's the deal with her?
Ophelia's boobies are $$ :)
You assumed I was saying it was a bad thing, I didnt.
Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)
There are tons of reasons (Umm, like how Teresa, the most important person to her, died?) to not try and save it (Ophelia's humanity), and that was my point. But then again, as you said, Clare isnt really rational, and thus my complaints.
Whether Im surprised or not, or whether my predictions are correct or not do not matter. What I was emphasizing if you read between the lines is that the delivery was lacking, not the actual plot direction itself. It was too sudden, not surprising, and there is a big difference.
What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).
Actually, what Ophelia did was a very good strategy since Clare cannot use flash sword for a long time, its just that she had failed to complete it by killing Clare off.
EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.
I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.
I was sort of hoping Clare would get Irene's arm in a different way, but that is good enough I guess.
As for why Rafaela is only #5? I'm going to guess it's probably because she has only 1 eye. I wonder if she will kill Irene though.
As for cutting Ophelia up, how come she just didn't slice it off piece by piece? lol... It seems to use up so much more strength doing the flash sword repeatedly...
Anyways, this series is getting better and better.
When has Clare ever done things the easy way? She's always shown some level of compassion and humanity when dealing with non Yoma (humans and Claymores).
Ophelia seemed genuinely shocked that she had awakened and everything that came out of her mouth hinted that she was fighting the urges imposed on her by awakening ("I want to east something soft and warm, like guts" and "They don't have to be human guts, but the closer the better") stuff like that made it understandable that she retained some of her senses, unlike the only other pre and post awakened person we've seen who was completely consumed by her Yoma side when she awakened.
My speculation based on these two different circumstances is that your state of mind as you awaken has some factor in how much of your human will stays with you across the change. Priscilla awakened while angry, frustrated, and in a fight she thought meant everything to her. Once she'd crossed over she maintained human cunning but became 'evil' in that she just wanted to win the fight and was willing to sink as far into her Yoma nature as she could in order to gain the power to do it. Ophelia awakened while angry, frustrated, injured and thinking about how she missed her brother who had saved her. Once she crossed over her thoughts weren't on something negative like killing an enemy they were on her brother and that may have lead to her humanity being able to resist the urge to sink further into her Yoma nature.
I'd agree that Clare didn't just kill her outright because she felt bad for her and wanted to give her some shred of human dignity in death. While it may be stupid of the warrior scale it was the more human thing to do, and one of the things they've stressed more than anything in this show is that Claymores being more human in the head is a good thing.
Quote:
EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.
I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.
Something was surely pissing you besides the quoted. I'm not taunting you, I just find your quirks about the episode unwarranted. I see them too minor to conclude that it wasn't a good episode (since you didn't like it). The episode had a lot more to offer, but as I mentioned people tend to focus on the negative portions (even though I disagree they are) of the episode instead on the positives that hugely overwhelm the former. Like the introduction of Rafela, ranked number 5 and Irene questions why she is ranked that low when she's that strong, that she probably would still lose if she had her two arms. But whatever, to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Yeah, but still using Raki in that moment would overshadow the importance of her actually being the one that survived Teresa. It was something that Clare and Irene talked plenty during the episode, so there had to be a direct link to what they talked about and what was suddenly said to Clare during the fight.Quote:
Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)
I was just throwing a possibility, not that it's actually her train of thought. But Ophelia certainly didn't like being Awakened and we know it because of her reaction when she saw her reflection, because we know how she hates them, and how she didn't really fight at full strength after that, so Clare should've picked up on Ophelia not putting up a real fight. And if you aknowledge that Clare is irrational and "stupid" then you can't deny this as a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I definitely like Ophelia's rejection of her own Awakened state. And how she didn't put it together until she saw herself while fighting Clare. She really didn't grasp her situation at all.
I also liked how Clare got a new arm. It's much less cheap than giving her something like a Picollo-style limb regeneration. Her difficulty with flash sword and her trouble controlling Irene's arm were both nice tools to re-ground her post-half-awakened state, underscoring that just because she can awaken and come back doesn't mean it's suddenly easy for her to do. Good times, that.
I think that for as long as we've been following Clare, she hasn't really been engaged in any sort of real training or practice, so she hasn't gotten significantly better. Meeting Irene and spending a couple days practicing with her and learning her technique, albeit imperfectly, definitely should have yielded a power and speed increase.
I'd like to see Clare engage in a lot more practice and training on her own, exploring her own power and its limits. She knows what her strengths and weaknesses are, so even without someone's yoki to read, I'd think she could spend time improving her weak points ... like the switch between defensively pushing her power down and flipping it into high-powered attack mode.
For a minute there, I thought that Rafaela was either Noel or Sophia because Priscilla had stabbed their eyes, but then the hair was different.
On another note, was Clare using any of her Yoma powers when she was shredding Orphelia's body up? Clare looked like she never used any Yoma powers because she didn't have her yellow eyes, but then again, her veins were sticking out violently. One more thing, how did get power-up when she was stopped by Orphelia? After having such a momentarily flashback, it made her endure the pain and continue (which I really doubt is the real reason for her sudden boost in energy). Last question, back in episode 8, or the awakening of Priscilla, she threw Irene's arm back to her after she cut it off. Why didn't Irene repair her arm at that time?
Anyway, the next episode looks very interesting. Based on the preview, it seems set in a dark place, just like the Organization place shown during the last several seconds of the episode. Maybe this episode will show how Claymores are born, or that maybe the Organization actually breeds and make the Yoma.
The best answer I can come up with is that Irene suffered a nasty near fatal wound, she seemed to lose consciousness, also she probably needed all her youma energy to heal it, and there wasn't any left to use for her arm. Probably, by the time she came to, she couldn't attach her limb any longer because too much time had passed. You can see Clare urging Irene to attach it for a reason, maybe you need to attach it within a time frame or it becomes impossible.
ugh so much discussion....i'll read it all later. For now i'll just say that, to me it seems like the way a claymore awakens (that is, the conditions surrounding the awakening) have a lot to do with the end result. That seems to be why the 'all awakened beings are inherently evil' theory doesn't hold. Ophelia awakened out of sheer emotion...she felt guilt, she felt lonely, she felt like a little girl who'd just lost her brother. Priscilla on the other hand awakened out of rage and yoki overload. she was angry at not being able to defeat teresa, and cuz in her eyes teresa wasn't following the rules while she was....she pusehd her self to the limit while being angry at teresa so that could explain why she was more 'evil' then ophelia, even though pre-awakening ophelia was way more messed up.
Good to see Clare got an arm back. It's a little pale, but better than nothing.
Clare said that when things are over that she will return the arm to Irene.. Does things really ends for claymores? Unless they become a yoma or be dead. And if you run from your mission the organization will hunt you down. I guess Clare won't actually have any opportunity to give back the arm even if Irene is alive/
She probably meant on her journey to avenge Teresa, killing Priscilla.
No, thats pretty much it. I just didnt like some parts of the episode (especially her use of flash sword), and I found it to be not as good as the other episodes. I even gave the exact reasons why I didnt like it, so I dont know what makes you say different. But, to each his own. Still, there are good parts, which are the ones I didnt have to point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
This is too much of a rationalization, but like I said, I was simply pitying Raki, and thus its my personal preference. It didnt ruin the episode in technical terms at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Yes we can, and we should deny this possibility. Clare should never become so stupid. I said she was stupid, but this is of a completely different level, since it assumes something that has really no basis at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
Also, Ophelia's actions initially werent to allow Clare to win. It was more of a strategy to ensure her victory (Clare was winning at that point even if she was tired, and she might just get the idea to slash off Ophelia's head and not everywhere else). But Clare's determination (and stupidity) is what swayed her to let herself get killed in the end.
I have to admit though, that Ophelia's change may have its reasons. I just wish they foreshadowed it by a glimpse or hints that awakened beings arent pure evil. Or maybe Ophelia is the first to resist it to this extent, I guess that would make more sense. I hope they follow it up with something like that.
Its not just about taking the easy way. She might as well have died when she chose to battle the way she did, and she practically won just because Ophelia allowed her to. Her winning that battle in that manner was plain illogical, but this is anime, so I cant really complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
It may seem strange since Irene actually transplanted her arm to Clare, but Im pretty sure that was possible because the arm was recently removed from the body. Even if the wounds are still open (since one can reopen them apparently), if the arm itself is dead, I guess it wont work.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaFob
The thing about this show, is that it reminds me alot of Bleach. In that, aside from a few monsters at the beginning, the main character spends more time fighting their own people than anyone else.
At least Clare didn't magically become one of the strongest through a shortcut training session and because she magically had higher potential than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnder
Bleach is garbage compared to Claymore.
At least in my opinion.
Well, boobies.
anyway, Clare could had used her left arm since she's not used to the right arm yet..although it's not the dominant arm. Just my opinion though
i actually felt sorry for Ophelia... and I hated the bitch for the previous episode...
You'd think Irene is dead, since even she admitted she'd have needed both her arms to beat Rafaela... but maybe the fact that they didn't show it leaves that very open possibility that Irene somehow escapes death again...
I'm glad Clare has an arm again (though, since she started training with her off-hand, maybe there's the chance she'll be duel wielding in the future?),even if the way she got it wasn't my preferred way.
i'm enjoying this series to an almost unhealthy extent.
OMG... Just the thought of Clare dual wielding would be hot. Flash Sword in both arms! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
lol
Did Clare grow stronger by simply attaching Irene's arm to her body? I mean, there should be a significant difference between the dominant and non-dominant arm, but not to the extent that you would still use your dominant one despite it being injured like Clare did in the last episode (especially since we know she can use her left arm for the flash sword). Is Irene's arm fundamentally stronger than Clare's, thus making Clare's present right arm stronger than before?
from when Irene said: "Your strength and speed are less than a tenth of mine" and when offering her arm, "Here, this should help" and how Clare's Flash Sword was nothing compared to Irene's, I got the impression that the new arm is probably the strongest part of Clare's body now.
She got stronger from training with Irene also. Also, she is right-handed, I believe... so she naturally held her sword in it, even if it's a foreign body part that's hard to control.
That makes her like frankenstein. Im not sure if I like the idea of having strong body parts compared to the body.
You could almost see the series going down a "parts-collector" path. Clare as the anime version of Syler?
That'd be trippy :p
Yeah, I can see the potential in that too (parts collecting)
But I don't think it'll happen, simply because Claymore has pulled it off so far without falling into the traps so many shounen action anime do. Irene and Teresa were also people (yes, I'm calling claymores people!!) from Clare's past, and have, in a sense, contributed to Clare's upbringing, so it makes sense to me that it's now Clare, successor of Teresa's flesh and blood, bearer of Irene's right arm. I don't think it's gonna get any longer.
This episode turns it all around for Ophelia. Changes my impression of her from "you F@#king bloodthirsty bitch" to "*sigh*, if only you weren't........." Kinda sad.
Even if it's a foreign body part that's hard to control:
Episode 15 h264 - Eclipse
Episode 15 xvid - Eclipse
wow 3 months time skip.. wierd though that it took the organization 3 months to notice Clare's situation. And the awakened beings are forming an army.. things are much more interesting
Poor foolish little Raki, he should have stayed in the first town the came to going in the direction that he did, that would have made it easier for Clare to find him. I say he deserves to be left in the desert to die.
The little girl is awesome, so sweet sounding but so icy with her actual words.
Desert to die? I deem he's purposefully subjecting himself to some Conanesque what doesn't kill you makes you stonger training. Three months might be quite a significant time for a Claymore like Clare but what can a human kid really learn in that time under normal circumstances? I don't think that much. Who knows, as much as he wants to be reunited with Clare, he might also hope he will be a different man when that happens and thus could subconsciously make decisions that won't make it easier for Clare to find him.
I was rather surprised that he stupidly didn't wait out the sandstorm. When crossing a desert on foot, a stiff breeze and some eddie currents are the difference between staying on track and getting to your destination and wandering in circles wasting energy and water.
I think that our half-demon-loving shounen is maybe a little lacking in the common sense department :p.
Trying to disguise herself as a boy or not, Clare with that pony-tail was hot. :p
Damn it Clare! Your comrades are in danger, stop walking! lol
Very interesting episode. I wonder what that awakened being and the little girl are trying to do. Well they could just be doing it for fun. As for the organization, it seems to be led by all men. I wonder what kind of powers they have.
Anybody else feel this episode has some really odd segments where the music just didn't fit what was going on on-screen?
I liked that we saw a glimpse of The Organization. Looks like Artriea is getting assigned to tracking down Clare... I doubt they'll be very happy that she's been ducking them for the past three months... I assume she did it so she could find Raki, rather than be assigned all over the place at random. I really liked how Clare's 'handler' was just smiling and acting all smug throughout the meeting.
Seriously, he should have just stayed in the closest town is right! And then walking about in a storm... comp said it well.
hmm, is that creepy little girl Nana Mizuki? (Hinata in Naruto, Wrath in FMA... seems I've heard here somewhere else too...) It was bothering me throughout the episode, cuz I felt I should knew that voice... She's listed on ANN under a name, and so I can't tell if she's this character or not. Some kind of Awakened Being that retains her human shape? I'm very interested to see how she came all about and why she has an army of Yoma under her
Seriously! She's like "I better go help, but not in any hurry..." It must take forever to get things done in the Claymore world, what with them walking everywhere (no carriages seen yet)Quote:
Originally Posted by Id3aLiStiC
I liked Clare's outfit in this episode. The time skip fit in nicely. Also, I really like that girl, I love cold blooded monsters/villains appearing like children. She seems to be slightly smart too, possibly having some sort of goal besides just eating guts and all. I hope we will get to see more from the organizations point of view in future episodes.
Yeah, that actionlike music when she was just walking around in town felt a bit out of place.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
I see more than just me fell instantly in love with the creepy little loli. Her intelligent tone and obvious youth are very strange for an Awakened. It seems strange that Awakeneds would seek out and band with youma, after all, they still were Claymores at one time. Perhaps they gain a little camaraderie for each other while feasting on guts. Crack open a warm one? She (whatever her name happens to be, no spoiling.) and Dauf are clearly up to something. To what end do they want Claymores to Awaken for them? Could it be more than gaining allies? Studying their own condition, testing new limits, sowing chaos?
It's also nice to see yet another Sailor Scout Seiyuu join the ranks of the Claymore cast. Kotono Mitsuishi herself as Jean. All we need now is Mars and Venus. An interesting side note according to ANN is that the Director of Claymore played a super-minor role in Sailor Moon.
... a psychiatrist would love this quote!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrlderek
I'm pretty sure Duff is an Awakened as well.
Who said that he wasn't? I thought it was kind of obvious. Unique form (unlike the two archetypes outside) and he can maintain a form that looks similar to his Awakened one, something seen in all the Awakeneds so far.
The chair creepy little loli was sitting in looked suspiciously like a throne.
I thought you were implying Duff was a regular yoma. I guess you were referring to the minions outside.Quote:
It seems strange that Awakeneds would seek out and band with youma, after all, they still were Claymores at one time.
i was quite confused at first too. It's clear Duff (DUFF man, oh yeah!:cool:) is strong as hell. I mean, he smashed an Awakened Being into itty-bitty pieces with his bare hands... and even if Kathia or whatever her name was who Awoke was a low thirty number, that's still commendable that he just took her out like that...
I thought that, in some weird way, loli and Duff were one entity, mostly because loli was so ... well, just so normal looking. (I temporarily forgot about the appearance of the Awakened which Ophelia slew). She must be ancient and absurdly powerful (like the innkeeper said) to have an Awakened male under her control.
Another random thought... 4 Claymores went to the mine. Jean is still alive and struggling, Kathia Awoke and got crushed, that one girl died back in town, but we still have the fourth one. She was just lying there, and loli made a point that "If you don't hurry and awaken, you'll end up like that... full of holes in dying." But, for some reason, I just didn't buy that that 4th Claymore is truly out of the picture just yet. Maybe I'm just reading too much hope into it, and that she'll turn out to be a wild card in helping Clare...
I'm pretty sure she's dead.
It should Galatea, the Claymore who sensed Clare's yoki during Clare's Awakened Being fight from before.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
Well, in the consequence that Clare would have died against Orphelia, then Orphelia would have came after him next because she kills witnesses that knew or saw her killing her own comrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
Maybe she didn't want to waste any energy getting there; she did say that it took about a day to get there anyway, and from the looks of it, she got there in a half-day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Id3aLiStiC
Awakened Beings should still be 100% Youma. Having Orphelia as an exception, I think most of the Awakenings that were intended to awaken would have lost their conscience (or mentality stability), so they end up thinking and doing the same as other Youma do. Also, seeing the Youma massacre (back when Teresa was alive), it would make sense that Youma band and work together to get their food, like a pride of lions. Don't really know, just my theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Ophelia is a perfect example that some Awakeneds are not just youma. Yes, she was pretty much a nutcase, but she still harbored the immense hatred towards Awakeneds. Lower ranking ones seem to be little more than youma, eating and moving. Like the tentacle one Ophelia killed or this most recent one. Higher ranking (experienced) ones still seem to possess a great deal of their own motivations, the Nameless Male, Ophelia, Dauf and the loli. They may be overcome with the pleasure that comes in their newfound existence, as Priscilla did, but some of the more traumatized ones like Ophelia surely remember their hatred for youma.
In one of the cases with Teresa and her hunters, someone said that they simply took over the entire village and waited for travelers, and that was very unusual, since they are generally very selfish creatures. I would imagine if anything would make a youma bow beneath an Awakened, it would be fear.
If I remember correctly, Clare told Raki to run as far as he can, since even if she (Clare from Ophelia since that was the original plan) was able to escape, Raki would have just been hunted down and killed by Ophelia. I know running for a few months may seem like overkill, but I think that he has simply gotten plenty far when he escaped, and that led him to believe that Clare would have a very difficult time finding him, so he might have set out to find her himself.
Raki was never the type to simply sit back and wait, even if that is the smartest thing to do, so doing what he is now is within his character, but he isnt so stupid as to simply run off from the get go with no reason as some of you suggest.
Raki also didn't really seem to be fleeing too much or keeping too low a profile. I think maybe he's probably shifted from "Escape from Ophelia" mode into "Look for Clare" mode.
And yeah, wasn't I saying before that it seems like Awakened are pretty present-minded? Aware, cognizant, clever, and even rational?
(edit to add: indeed, I did say that! back around post 300! This thread is getting really hard to keep track of >_<)
The best thing to do comp is to not care about Raki at all, he's pretty much worthless.
New Claymore though, is the opposite of worthless.
Jean (Not Jeane, screw that silent e) is badass. She's been impaled way worse then Claire ever has and she's still kicking with barely any sweat.
Hmph! Jean is #9, Clare is #47. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
In that episode, Clare was wondering what Raki was to her, I wonder, what really? I know this has been asked before, but with some new info from this episode, it really seems that Clare has at least a bit of romantic feelings for Raki (considering the scenes that were shown during the flashback and her monologue).
Not all of them are though. The one Ophelia killed just seemed to roam from city to city eating people, and only spoke about her own superiority. From the very few mentions of her since, Priscilla seems to have only gone on a rampage and then disappeared. Kathia couldn't even speak, and neither apparently could the one that Miria killed before she semi-awakened.Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
Excepting Priscilla, since she's emotionally unstable (more than Ophelia), it seems more like only the strongest Claymores can get to that level of control that allows them the self control to plan and execute thoughtful plans. Again, just like with Claymores themselves, governing over their strengths seems to be a matter of will power and control.
Creepy Loli seems to have a great deal of it.
Shit, this episode ended in the worst spot ever. I may have to start reading the manga now.
Clare will get stabbed a lot more after she finds Raki.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukimura
If you know what I mean.
I can't say I agree quite yet that it's a romantic bond between the two. Raki hasn't given much indication that he's actually attracted to Clare, more like he's eternally grateful to her and looks up to her. I think the 'big brother' ruse is an accurate description.
As for what Clare feels about Raki... it did seem that her thoughts on him were a little flowery and... well, maybe... At first I thought it was because he reminded her of her previous life with Teresa, but now I think that. And will Raki be able to oppose her advances (will he even want to?)?
The 'Clare and Raki' supporters here at least publicly acknowledge their pedophilic tendencies in their sigs... /b/ much?
I'm actually a /h/ guy myself.
I'm fighting the same urge too. But I figure I'll still wait for the weekly episodes, as I really like the animation and music. The manga will have to wait. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-BeRt
It's worth it if you can hold out. So far, it's been a near perfect adaptation, only shortening a worthless chapter 2 into a 30 second clip, cutting a few lines of Teresa backstory dialog, and adding more material about Miria.
The music is good (I'm really liking the bagpipes), and the voicework has been superb. I got chills when Miria was being tortured by the Awakened that I never got from the manga. Some of that is Kikuko Inoue's very nice performance, but that scene was just so much more terrible in the anime. Ophelia also gets projected way up the Creepy-o-meter with voicework.
Maybe the chick that was sent to find Clare will end up helping her?
Well, it depends on what type of orders she was given... If the orders were simply to find her, then I think there's a chance that she'll help her. But if the orders were to eliminate her, then she'll surely take her down... I don't see these Claymores defying the organization on a mere whim. Also, do you think that she'll reach Clare on time? She seems to be far away.
Claymores -do- travel fast when they want to.
for some reason, I can only see Galatea as not helping... It just fits the formula that the people blindly loyal to the organization often impede the main character (who has his/her own sense of justice/right)... Unless the creepy girl is really so super strong and so requires Clare, Jean and Galatea to team up... Clare simply can't fall to a character like that!
edit - corrected
The one sent to find Clare was #3 Galatea not #5. #5 is the one that found Irene.
Loving this series more and more. Cant wait for the next episode. And I think Clare and Raki will have some kind of romance. I think it was the previous episode where they mention Claymores grow to a certain point and then stop unlike humans. Why else would they mention that if they were suggesting that Clare isnt getting any older while Raki is still growing. And I HOPE Irene is still alive, shes my fav...
Irene had no arms or weapons and the assassin Claymore was supposed to be even better than her #5 rank implied. She is definitely dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by tnynyn
Irene also said she needed both of her arms to even remotely stand a chance.
I think what she said was, it would have worked out if I had both arms (from the actual japanese), which I believe meant that she would win, since escape from claymores of high caliber is virtually impossible.
That comment was of course not only to imply the strength of number 5, but also to eliminate any guilt or blame that Clare may suffer for having taken Irene's arm.
Hmmm... Interesting point. Kind of flushes out the "pedophile" thought of Clare.Quote:
Originally Posted by tnynyn