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I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.
Re-read, we didn't say strength wasn't necessary, just that it is NOT central to the duties of Hokage. The factors of character, experience, patience, and intellect are collectively more important than pure fighting skill.Quote:
Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.
yeah you have to be an all around good person that doesnt care about yourself or your family members, but everyone, and the recent hokage must agree with your ideas on how to better the village in order to become one
okay.. im pretty sure strength is the most heavily weighed tho.... come on. But if someone has pure strength, but has none of the other qualities, then obviously hes not gonna be chosen...
Knives.. your sig is really huge.. the size is like 400x80 from the last i heard before...
I read what was written before I posted. Obviously strength is central, because of the reasons I stated in the previous post. Whenever the term Kage is mentioned, it is always mentioned in terms of strength. Not once have I heard that you had to be a diplomat in order to be kage. It is always reiterated that you had to be the strongest ninja in the village and you had to know so many jutsus. That obviously makes strength central to kage status.Quote:
Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Re-read, we didn't say strength wasn't necessary, just that it is NOT central to the duties of Hokage. The factors of character, experience, patience, and intellect are collectively more important than pure fighting skill.Quote:
Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.
Naruto is that and more. He surpasses Shika in this category, hence Tsunade's necklace. So I don't see how this works against Naruto.Quote:
yeah you have to be an all around good person that doesnt care about yourself or your family members, but everyone, and the recent hokage must agree with your ideas on how to better the village in order to become one
The Hokage rank IS strength, because of the authority and responsibility of the position. And how many times does the Hokage go out to fight anyway? It's an administrative position, not a soldier position.
Hokage fights, just like everyone else in times of war. He just doens't go out on missions during the peace-time. Peace-time missions are menial tasks for lower ranked ninjas to hone their skills. Kage of course doesn't need that since he is indeed the strongest.
Your idea of a kage is someone who travels to other countries to promote peace. They also balance the village budget, reduce the village defecit, and approve village spending. They run negative campaign ads against their running mates. They speak out about the cost of medicare and the village economy. They speak out about how the social security system isn't working. They bring up issues about how the village needs new, better, cleaner energy.
Sorry, but in Naruto's world, it's very Darwinistic. It's a kill or be killed kind of world. It's a world where the pen isn't mightier than the sword.
It's not logical to risk a leader in combat unless absolutely necessary. The Kage = strongest fighter doesn't seem to be an absolute rule. Best point of this has already been made : Gaara > Kazekage. The 3rd, almost unquestionably one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) characters in the series, had how many fights in his entire appearance in the series?
Logic dictates that for a position that is in charge, you want the most competent leader possible for that role. A great fighter can be effective even from the rank of Genin. But a great leader can only be effective in the position of leadership.
The fact that the Naruto world is fictional does not give it an absolute aversion to any semblence of common sense. Virtually all of what we have seen the Kages do has been in administrative duties.
Naruto can beat Shikamaru (shikamaru said that, so he must be right).
Naruto is a genin, Shikamaru is a chunin.
as a pure fighter, Naruto can outmatch most enemies, yet, that doesn't make him a neccerly good ninja. let's say that the mission is to steal a document and forge it without anyone noticing, this is a mission which would require brains and careful planning, you need someone with brains to handle this type of missions. i don't believe Naruto would be able to think past the basic manuvers of sealth sneaking.
The hokage is the supreme commander of the village, he needs to assiagn missions and rule over the training of the young ones, he has the ANBU to do the fighting for him...
besides, this whole discussion is pointless, we're already given the answer in the second test, Heaven and earth scrolls anyone? run in the fields to gain power, and focus to gain smarts?
My last post on this subject.
1. The leader is always at risk. During a combat or non-combat environment. That's one of the negative aspects of being a leader. LOL...who do you think ninjas assasinate? Leaders of course.
2. A great leader from your perspective can not defend himself in terms of an assasination attempt, because they excel only at leadership. Thus the leader never becomes great. They were simply a leader. A strong leader can resist assasination attempts and defend his ideals. He can keep the village together in good times and bad. If the people don't feel that their leader can protect them, they will mutiny. Itachi is a prime example. Using your example of a strong genin, what's to stop that genin from killing the kage and taking the title for himself? Do you see how a weak leader can cause village disputes and factions to arise. Somone like Shika is great for the village council, but is certainly not strong enough to be Kage. Strength is far more important than leadership especially in Naruto's fictional world.
3. The third fought during the sound/sand invasion. The fourth fought against kyubi. I'm sure the first and second fought as well during their times (remember the great war). We've also seen the fifth fight. They don't aren't just administrative puppets as you suggest. They are the strongest ninja in the village. It is stated so.
Naruto stole the forbidden scroll. Remember? That took skill and cunning. The only reason why anyone found out was because of that Miyuki (or whatever that guys name was, the guy that told Naruto to do it).Quote:
as a pure fighter, Naruto can outmatch most enemies, yet, that doesn't make him a neccerly good ninja. let's say that the mission is to steal a document and forge it without anyone noticing, this is a mission which would require brains and careful planning, you need someone with brains to handle this type of missions. i don't believe Naruto would be able to think past the basic manuvers of sealth sneaking.
Once and for all. I'd like to make this very clear to all the freaking HYPOCRITES and IDIOTS, who keep saying that discussions such as these are pointless.
EVERY FREAKING POST ON THIS DAMN FORUM IS POINTLESS. IT'S FICTION. DON'T YOU THINK THAT IT'S FREAKING OBVIOUS THAT THERE ISN'T ANY POINT TO IT.
1. WHY THE HELL DO YOU FREAKING HYPOCRITES POST? ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THESE DAMN DISCUSSIONS ARE POINTLESS.
2. KONOHAMARUCORPS, HOTSUMA, DAZZZ, AND NOW DEATH BOOZ. I SWEAR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW UP EVERY ONE OF YOUR FREAKING POINTLESS POSTS WITH "DON'T YOU KNOW THESE DISCUSSIONS ARE POINTLESS." actually I don't have the time or the inclination, but it sounded good.
3. IF ANYONE OF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT THERE IS A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION ON THIS FORUM. THEN &*%$ #$%^&!!!!! PEOPLE DISCUSS THINGS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION.
It's part of the socialization process.
Argh, another brickheaded argument that tries to twist what was said. I NEVER said that fighting skill was totally unimportant to the position of Hokage, just secondary. Yes, the position of leader is always at risk .. your point? Of course the Hokage has to have achieved a great level of respect and ability for being a great ninja, which involves by matter of course .. a great level of fighting skill. But fighting is NOT all there is to being a ninja, there is so much more to it than that, especially if you are responsible for the village!
Your argument on leadership, village disputes, and factions arising is totally and completely muddled. It takes an intelligent and compassionate leader to keep the people united. Being purely a great fighter cannot hope to accomplish that task, the people have to have faith in what you are trying to accomplish as their leader, or they will not follow orders. Who would you rather have in charge, an outstanding fighter with only mediocre intelligence, or a brilliant and creative tactician and leader who may NOT be the absolute best fighter in the village? Why do you think the 3rd had to re-assume the role of Hokage after the 4th died? He was old, and considerably weakened, but he was the best choice available for the job, because he was a great and inspirational leader that everyone trusted.
And for anyone who thinks that the Kage is chosen only for fighting skill .. what about a situation where there are rivals who are nearly equal in strength, but who constantly eclipse each other in fighting ability through their training. Would they trade the position of Kage every 6 months based on who was stronger? It's just a stupid thing to think .. the position would go (and stay) to the person more fit to lead the village, and it would stay that way until a better choice became available. Physical strength is transient, but great leaders are like rocks you can depend upon. And fighting is not the gift that the 3rd gave to his village, it was character, inspiration, and self-sacrifice.
There wasn't anyone strong enough left to take the fourths place. So the third once again took up the title of hokage. Not because he was just great and inspirational, but because he was indeed the strongest in the village.
Strength is indeed transient. That explains why new kages arise and old ones step down. A brilliant and creative tactician who can not save his own life is useless. Someone of of mediocre intelligence is smart enough to know that they don't know all the answeres and therefore seeks council. What happened to the smart tactician in the Uchiha Clan, oh that's right a very strong man killed all of them. Strength defines everything.
As for your argument about two people with nearly equal strengths, I'm sure one of them will meet a uncertain demise. Why do you keep forgetting that this is a world of ninjas and not regular people wearing Armani suits?
Why do you believe:
"because he is stronger than myself"
and not
"kage is the strongest ninja in the village."
Are you implying that in the first qoute, Oro is stating that Itachi has better leadership skills than Oro!!!
So much for 'my last post on the subject' LOL!
It is highly probable that Jiraiya was stronger than the highly-aged 3rd, if strength were the pure requirement for Hokage, most likely they would have sought him out, or gone ahead and installed Tsunade. 'A brilliant and creative tactician who can not save his own life is useless'? Are you kidding me? In the rock>paper>scissors world of Naruto, there is always the possibility of death, REGARDLESS of how strong you are. Additionally, the smarter and more intuitive you are, the less likely you are going to fall into a trap or to be caught unaware of an assassination attempt.
'Strength defines everything' ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Are we even reading/watching the same series? Of course strength is necessary, to a significantly larger degree than exists in the real world (where ninja were simply tools, not rulers). In Naruto, there are many elements of emphasis, and strength is NOT the definition of everything. If anything, it's about overcoming obstacles to accomplish goals, and finding redemption. Not necessarily through strength, but by spirit, hard work, and a sense of honor for your friends and village.
As for the two quotes .. I think Oro actually fears Itachi .. because he is smart and knows his own weaknesses well enough to realistically assess the encounter. He also puts an intense amount of emphasis on knowledge of jutsu, and the sharingan gives an intimidating advantage in the ability to amass the user's number of jutsu. The 2nd quote 'Kage is the strongest ninja in the village' I fully believe to be the measure of the position, not purely a measurement of someone's combat ability. Why? Because it is more than likely that during a Kage's rule, that others in the village will exceed the Kage's pure fighting ability, but it wouldn't make sense to change leaders each and every time that happened. Or there would be people who have more pure combat ability, but are either too psychotic, malicious, or unintelligent to perform the duties. Any one of a wide range of possibilites would prove the rule of the Hokage being the strongest FIGHTER completely and utterly false. And that's the bottom line.
You have to be strong to be a hokage.... If the 3rd wasn't strong,the whole Leaf village would have been owned............ and the hokage's duties are to protect the village, if you're not strong, how the hell are you going to protect?
Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!
oh in that case, then being strong is a requirement, but you must have all great leadership skillz. becasue if you are just strong, then orochimaru would have been chosen. 3rd probably though orochimaru is stronger, but yondaime had something much more than just being strong, its probably the love for the village and to protect them, something orochimaru doesn't have.
Well said Jing, one thing that is certain : there are many ways of looking at the situation [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
God okay. Yes you have to be the strongest in the village to become Hokage. Thats what being hokage is. But true strength doesn't neccessary come from pure brute physical power, but can come from tactics, techniques, and all that other good stuff. Fighting skill is NOT secondary. Think about it.. come on. I dont think hokage really has the time really go out and FIGHT and do missions all day. Thats why we dont see him doing them. Hes not gonna do a B rank or lower mission. Its just not whats important to him. But if someone were to attack and the kage knew all this stuff and then he was too weak and just died, that would be pathetic. I agree with Hiten... Lets see.. if Shika (the intelligent government position) were to go against someone with pure strength and speed like lets see.. Rock Lee, then i dont think Shika would stand a chance. His shadow seems pretty slow to me seeing how Temari was just jumping out of the way. Rock Lee could just twirl around Shika and grab him and bye bye to Shika. Shika vs. Naruto = Naruto goes SSJ, whoops i mean Kyuubi style [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img], and makes many many kage bunshins and the real Naruto can sit back while Shika gets pounded. So I think Naruto would become Hokage rather than Shika.. and lastly... even if Naruto is stupid, he'll have two right hand men to help him just like Hokage had...
Obviously Gaara is ultimatly powerful, but do you honestly believe that the kazekage couldnt kill him? The kazekage probably didnt WANT to kill him that bad because if he didn't he wouldnt send just one nin, but a mass assualt on Gaara. I bet even if kazekage went 1v1, Kazekage would whoop on Gaara's ass. Its just you know.. its his son and all.. he probably DOES have a conscience. And what would the village think if kazekage himself went and killed Gaara? Not very highly of him... so no.. Gaara does NOT > Kazekage.
I couldn't disagree more, and you seem to also miss the point, which is incredible given the amount of information posted in this thread. You seem to even argue with yourself in your own post .. and fail to acknowledge that there are many powerful fighters to choose from at any given time.
The comparison of Shika was in terms of leadership/rank, and is valid. Of course Shika isn't Hokage material right now, NONE of the chuunin/genin are, that's just silly. What IS clear, is that Shika got promoted to Chuunin, while Neji/Naruto/Lee/etc did NOT get promoted. Did the others get robbed? No, because the rank of Chuunin requires someone to be intelligent, responsible, and have the greatest ability to lead missions successfully + keep their team alive, as WELL as being a competent fighter. If fighting was the primary reason for getting promoted, then Naruto would have become chuunin, not Shika. EVERY position of rank, when you are responsible for the organization and protection of the village, requires much more than pure fighting skill, and it's the job of the government to make sure the right people get into the right positions..
Also, answer me this : why would the strongest fighter in the village necessarily be the leader? If they are serving the same village, the strongest fighter could easily contribute all of his fighting skills as a right-hand man instead of the commander. But the best commander can't contribute everything he has to offer if he is not in a position of authority. It's simple logic .. not to mention it would create chaos to change your ruler every single time someone stronger appears.
Cat is right, how can you become a Hokage if you don't even have the skillz to be a Chunnin. That's right you can't.
Shika versus Naruto?
SHIKA OWNZ NARUTO
he will shadow imitate all the clones , and make them go against naruto.