Happy Birthday, MFauli!

This article makes sense to me.

Handwashing: the water can't get anywhere near hot enough and chances are you're using a gross contaminated sponge anyway.

Dishwashing: should be better due to high heat (impossible for handwashing unless you're using gloves. According to the article ~145 degrees is enough to at least consider the dishes sanitized). You don't need infinite amounts of scrubbing power so much as just enough to get the food bits off, which are breeding grounds for bacteria of course. Plus use of detergent helps to create an unfriendly environment even more. I'm curious about restaurants that are confident (lazy?) enough to not use detergent, though.

Absent of pure mechanical pressure, mere water, no matter how hot, isn't able to dissolve oil!

Besides the waste of water, I think over-sterilization by using the dishwasher weakens the immune system. Like the article quotes, eating from bacteria-ridden dishes for decades hasn't had ill effects on people.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Boiling water kills bacteria, but no one would hand-wash with water that hot. I don't even know that a dishwasher can use water that hot (it pulls hot water from the tap, same as your sink, with no reservoir to boil the water (it's not like a coffee maker).

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I had a look at some Metos brochures (Metos being a major manufacturer of such appliances in Northern Europe) and it looks like the typical machines for a restaurant or institutional kitchen of a reasonable size can draw between 10-15kW of power. So they definitely are heating water. Furthermore, the same papers said the washing temperature is around 65C because the detergents prefer such temperatures, with the finish rinsing 85+C for sanitization.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Besides the waste of water, I think over-sterilization by using the dishwasher weakens the immune system. Like the article quotes, eating from bacteria-ridden dishes for decades hasn't had ill effects on people.

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The same brochure also ended with an anecdote that no matter how much effort is being invested in the kitchen to prepare wonderful food, it's all wasted if the customer gets dirty utensils.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

I had a look at some Metos brochures (Metos being a major manufacturer of such appliances in Northern Europe) and it looks like the typical machines for a restaurant or institutional kitchen of a reasonable size can draw between 10-15kW of power. So they definitely are heating water. Furthermore, the same papers said the washing temperature is around 65C because the detergents prefer such temperatures, with the finish rinsing 85+C for sanitization.

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I added that link to correct myself on this fact.

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The same brochure also ended with an anecdote that no matter how much effort is being invested in the kitchen to prepare wonderful food, it's all wasted if the customer gets dirty utensils.

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If the flavor of your food is so weak that microscopic bacterial contamination can over-power it, you need to add more salt or butter.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

If the flavor of your food is so weak that microscopic bacterial contamination can over-power it, you need to add more salt or butter.

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It's saying that awesome food doesn't matter if people shit their guts out afterwards. >_>

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Originally Posted by Buffalobiian

It's saying that awesome food doesn't matter if people shit their guts out afterwards. >_>

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I don't think that's what they are saying at all. I think they are being pretentious and speaking in hyperbole that a perfectly made meal will be ruined if you use dirty utensils to eat it, both because it can contaminate the flavor of the dish as well as grossing out the diner who has to use unclean utensils. I'd expect this kind of alarmist propaganda from a dishwasher manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Besides the waste of water, I think over-sterilization by using the dishwasher weakens the immune system. Like the article quotes, eating from bacteria-ridden dishes for decades hasn't had ill effects on people.

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Do you use soap when you shower?

Honest question. I know people who don't believe in using soap for the same thing you just stated.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

Do you use soap when you shower?

Honest question. I know people who don't believe in using soap for the same thing you just stated.

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Yes, but mostly just for the pubic areas because they get oily and just water won't dissolve the oil as mentioned previously. But I thought we already came to the consensus that the soap isn't what kills the bacteria, just very hot water and washing away the bacteria.

On this same line of thought, I think living in areas without a real winter and summer weakens people's constitutions and ability to survive. If you live in a sunny climate year round, you're not going to be able to handle a cold snap. Likewise, if you can't stand the heat of a Texas summer, that makes you a little weaker as well, considering it's only going to get hotter on this planet in the coming decades.

Animeniax your way of thinking does not surprise me. We should all endeavor to survive under the most extreme conditions possible because it will make us stronger. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger:rolleyes:

Well that's going a little too far. Living through a cold winter or hot summer isn't the "most extreme conditions possible". I think it makes sense that someone who spends the year round at 75F/24C would have a hard time adjusting to cold or hot days without feeling like shit and being generally useless those days.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

Handwashing: the water can't get anywhere near hot enough and chances are you're using a gross contaminated sponge anyway.

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I currently don't have a dishwasher, but I boil my sponge at least once a week! I also pour whatever boiling water is left in the hotpot into it after making tea.

Also, the hot water comes out at about 140°F. I use gloves.

Ani, 75°F year round sounds like heaven. Naturally if you have lived in a particular climate your body will become acclimated. Your post just made no sense to me. For example your last sentence seems to imply that we should all move to warmer climates in order to survive a future warmer global climate, Whereas if the entire planet is warming up one should stay in or move to typically cooler areas as temperatures in such areas will we more bearable. No just no, not going to think about this any more. I am getting a headache from trying to understand your reasoning.

Well move to California and you'll get that most of the year. Yeah it gets cold sometimes and warm others, but mostly it's beautiful weather year round. There's a reason people outside California don't like people from there. When you don't have to worry about the weather, you find other stupid shit to complain about. Some of it useful like marriage equality, but a lot isn't.

What I'm saying is that allowing yourself to acclimate to a moderate climate makes you soft and unprepared for the winter that is coming (figuratively speaking).

Whereas living in perpetual winter will make you grizzled and hardy and prepared for 100°F temperatures and 100% humidity? My point is that you don't have a point. Living in either extreme will not prepare you for the opposite extreme and neither will living in a moderate climate.

I think the hardened mountain man who can survive at -30F below 0 can acclimate himself to extremes better than a hipster/yuppie could handle being taken out of their comfort zone of moderate temps.

A very very nice attempt there Ani. Really very nice.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Yes, but mostly just for the pubic areas because they get oily and just water won't dissolve the oil as mentioned previously. But I thought we already came to the consensus that the soap isn't what kills the bacteria, just very hot water and washing away the bacteria.

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Wat hoh mah gawd! Nooo, soap is very very important for killing bacteria. It's a combination of the high pH and hot water that does it but soap is by no means irrelevant! Think of it like this. Soap kills the bacteria by dissolving it's cell walls (for the most part unless we're talking about super bacteria that survives in ridiculous conditions), the sponge scrapes off the dead bacteria carcasses and the water helps dissolve the soap and various other polar elements stuck on your body (keep in mind oil is nonpolar which is where soap comes in, water does nothing for these).

(above same theory for brushing teeth)

Besides, bacteria isn't your only problem. Your entire body secretes oils and other complex substances (polar/covalent complexes) that water doesn't really do anything for no matter the temp. It doesn't make sense that only your nuts get oily. Not to mention merely going outside makes you dirty from dirty air as well as sitting around in your underwear shedding skin/grease etc. Soap dissolves whatever trash you accumulate on your body internally or externally. Chances are you smell gross as hell!!!!! :<!!!! Someone who doesn't use soap once touched me and I got a rash! lol

What does your girlfriend (past or present) have to say about it, and would you date someone who really only paid attention to vajayjay hygeine?

Is this all assuming that we lose our clothing industry?

Cuz... there are clothes and shit. In case anyone forgot.

edit: about body washing -

Removing oils is pretty good. You're not going to clean off your bacteria, nor do you need to.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

Wat hoh mah gawd! Nooo, soap is very very important for killing bacteria. It's a combination of the low pH and hot water that does it but soap is by no means irrelevant! Think of it like this. Soap kills the bacteria by dissolving it's cell walls (for the most part unless we're talking about super bacteria that survives in ridiculous conditions), the sponge scrapes off the dead bacteria carcasses and the water helps dissolve the soap and various other polar elements stuck on your body (keep in mind oil is nonpolar which is where soap comes in, water does nothing for these).

(above same theory for brushing teeth)

Besides, bacteria isn't your only problem. Your entire body secretes oils and other complex substances (polar/covalent complexes) that water doesn't really do anything for no matter the temp. It doesn't make sense that only your nuts get oily. Not to mention merely going outside makes you dirty from dirty air as well as sitting around in your underwear shedding skin/grease etc. Soap dissolves whatever trash you accumulate on your body internally or externally. Chances are you smell gross as hell!!!!! :<!!!! Someone who doesn't use soap once touched me and I got a rash! lol

What does your girlfriend (past or present) have to say about it, and would you date someone who really only paid attention to vajayjay hygeine?

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Idk, I have pretty dry skin so oiliness isn't a problem, and neither is hygiene (I'm very self-conscious about how I smell). And your underarms are also pubic areas.

I think we need to check facts about soap killing bacteria. I've read the soap loosens the oil that traps bacteria and the act of washing flushes the bacteria away, not that the soap kills bacteria itself.

I checked the facts using my brain, I've learned this information since HS. :p Preformed petri dish experiments blabla. Biochem major, this is my area of expertise (but still look it up and inform yourself!!). So that whole thing is why companies can claim "this soap kills 99.9% of bacteria". But the thing I'd rather emphasize is all the things soap does OTHER than simply kill bacteria...

You didn't answer the GF question!

PS - your skin still secretes lots of stuff (including ITSELF) regardless of whether you detect it or not, for example naturally sweating (regardless of temperature/humidity/exertion) and all sorts of stuff is nonstop equilibriating regardless of what you do. Also, no one can smell their own B.O. (unless they hold their breath for a long ass time and re-sensitize themselves to their own smell?)