What do you think is best to protect Japan Culture, or any culture?

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Originally Posted by rockmanj

Well...third world countries...although I like discussing global economic policy, all I'm going to say is that calling people expandable in comparison to another group is..well; in my opinion, quite disgusting. So, if the Japanese decided to just take over their land, and cart them off, or "get rid of the" you would be fine with that?

Did you also feel that the North Atlantice Slave trade was a good idea? Or, for that matter, the seizure of the Americas by Europe; or the Occupation of Korea by the Japanese?

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Sacrifices would have to be made by the conquered peoples, to be sure. It's no different than when the Americans kicked out the Native Americans with their manifest destiny. I wouldn't liken it to the African slave trade, unless slaves were taken, which I don't advocate, though east Asia is rife with sweat shops and service-oriented people, so it wouldn't be all that different.

I'm thinking of the big picture, and yes some of the choices we'll have to make to ensure the survival of our species can be considered grotesque or disgusting. It's no worse than when lions turn on their weakest member and kill him in order to ensure the survival of their pride. It's just on a larger scale.

We really are getting away from the discussion of protecting a culture and talking more about expanding the culture's reach and influence, which in a way is part of protecting it.

@Animeniax

I understand your point of view even though i disagree with it. A country prosperity has a lot to do with how its government work and quite a bit of luck, so lets use the United States and China as examples. The United States is just a little over 200 years old but in that time frame it has become one of the World super power, while China on the other hand is nothing short of an ancient civilization that has survived till modern time but it has always been a very weak country compared to the other world powers until very recently.

If you take a good look at history, you'll see that Japan has a lot of common with the Chinese in term of thinking and their view on government. Southeast Asian countries tend to be very resistant to change and that is why many of them are still considered to be third world. If Japan had never gotten involve with Western Civilization and subsequently lost the war to the US which directly led to the the introduction of Democracy and Capitalism then i seriously doubt Japan would've grow as much as it did in the past 70 years.

So what was the point i was trying to make? While i think the protecting cultural heritage is important, being resistant to positive change will not benefit a country in anyway. So in a way "Evolution through survival of the fittest" as you described it is through interaction with other peoples and assimilate the good from them. I personally think that by enhancing a culture through positive changes, you can protect it more effectively than to let it die out because of some obscure cultural niche passed down by peoples long dead and buried.

FYI: The teach on Gaijinsmash is a black male from Detroit, so it would be good to read his stuff for shit and giggles about how the Japanese react to a 6'3 black male even if you don't take what he says seriously.

Actually it seems we agree on the generalities, just not in the details and future goals. What's past is past, it happened and things are the way they are now which is fine. The goal is how to control what will happen in the future for a country like Japan. It is modern and it is advanced due to war and loss and Western influence. That's fine, but the West is in decline, so how much bad influence will it now have on the Japanese?

I don't think countries should be resistant to positive change, but what "positive change" entails is debatable. Should these countries encourage more diversity and immigration? Some would call that positive change, others would not. I think Japanese rule will bring a lot of "positive changes" to the countries I listed earlier.

I don't need to read a blog from some guy to know how the Japanese will react to a 6'3" black guy from Detroit. He doesn't like it there? Go home, dawg.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

That's fine, but the West is in decline, so how much bad influence will it now have on the Japanese?

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I very much doubt Japan has entirely avoided that same decline. And using the USA as a baseline for the Western decline also would set too grim a picture.

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I don't need to read a blog from some guy to know how the Japanese will react to a 6'3" black guy from Detroit. He doesn't like it there? Go home, dawg.

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I understand you might not "need" to read it but why do you keep repeating that last part? If he hadn't liked it, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. And believe me or not but nobody here except yourself considers you the ultimate Japan data and information authority here.

I repeat it because people who visit Japan somehow feel the need and right to complain about what they find there, like it's the Japanese' fault that the people and culture didn't meet the visitor's expectations or that the visitor thought this was weird or that was different. Congratulations, you're a foreigner in a foreign country. Things are different. Get over it. You don't like it, get gone.

If you want to read about a foreigner's life in Japan that gives insights and useful comparisons between Japan and the US, visit this blog instead:
http://www.peterpayne.net/
He also sells cool stuff from Japan.

And what is that claim based on? As far as I know, Japan isn't the cheapest place to buy a trip to, at least not from here. That alone tells anybody going there must be willing to invest a good amount of money and effort. Going to some thirteen-in-a-dozen beach resort would be a lot cheaper, not to mention they wouldn't need to worry nearly as much about "surviving" there because there's only so much you can do between sleeping and drinking at your hotel and walking to the beach.

I don't know that many people who have travelled to Japan but those that I do loved the place. I haven't met anybody who would have first paid a lot to go there and then came back with nothing but complaints.

I think your whole attitude is somehow garbled. You want to preserve your precious ideal Japan that exists nowhere but in your own mind and only for yourself and thus think everybody else somehow misunderstand Japan, or are suspicious of it, or even unfairly hate it or some aspects of it. Do a reality check, man. People always complain about something because most people like to complain and often even like to listen to complaining if they think likewise. It doesn't mean they didn't generally enjoy their stay.

You really should know better because obviously you have been there multiple times.

Besides, I read Gaijinsmash a long time ago, but I didn't get the impression he didn't like Japan. I got the impression he just wanted to amuse the site visitors, thus writing like he did.

How much money you spend doesn't equate to how much enjoyment you'll get. People become interested in Japan for superficial reasons, mostly anime, ninjas, cars, and cuteness. Then they travel to Japan and find it's pretty much like any other Asian culture, complete with yellow people who seem cold and unfriendly and don't speak their language. They also get used to English subtitles in their anime, so when they get lost in Japan without any signs in English or anyone who speaks English to help them, they get upset at the people for being so foreign.

Being from Finland, I don't imagine you've met too many people who've been to Japan period. You sound like a friend of mine who quipped that working in Germany would be a blast because neither of us have ever heard anyone say it sucked. And how many people have we ever talked to who has worked in Germany period? Two. Pretty silly reasoning if you ask me.

I know my attitude has developed from experience and research about the subject. I don't know if this is all new to you, but I've been interested in it for a while, since I plan to move to Japan in the future. I've talked to people, read accounts, and experienced firsthand the "Japan Wonderland" mentality and subsequent backlash when they find it's not what they thought. I'll even admit to feeling some of the same feelings the first time I visited. Besides which, it's not just a Japanese thing. Pretty much any westerner who encounters east Asian culture might have a hard time adjusting. Even in the states, taking white friends to an Asian restaurant resulted in a lot of awkwardness. They hate when you slurp noodles.

I skimmed through the archive and saw some interesting titles. I'll probably read through it. My fault for assuming it was another blog about "foreign guy in Japan". Some of what he writes is more "weird Japan".

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Being from Finland, I don't imagine you've met too many people who've been to Japan period. You sound like a friend of mine who quipped that working in Germany would be a blast because neither of us have ever heard anyone say it sucked. And how many people have we ever talked to who has worked in Germany period? Two. Pretty silly reasoning if you ask me.

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Really, now? Aren't you falling victim to your own reasoning in that paragraph? You don't know the first thing about Finland, do you? It's true I haven't met that many people who have visited Japan (as opposed to you obviously, though I count it my pleasure since you apparently only meet people who didn't like the country), but I do know more than a few. And that's not even counting my cousin who's married to a genuine Japanese (nor obviously the Japanese people themselves whom I've met; they have "visited" Japan inherently so no use counting them).

I'm not really trying to oppose your views as such but I'm just wondering why you are so damn negative. But then again, maybe it's because I don't know the American mentality that deeply (and I get the impression it's mostly about the Americans visiting Japan you are talking about). Maybe those Americans I've met weren't like the typical American tourists (whatever those might be like).

Sure I do. I've heard the song "Finland" by Monty Python and I know about Teemu Selanne and Saku Koivu.

I think you might be right, we're talking about two different types of tourists here. I've talked to a few Australians and they had nothing but good things to say about their experience in Japan. Of course, they were just there to ski. A JET teacher from Australia had no complaints or cute stories like what gaijinsmash guy posts.

The people I'm talking about are the ones who want to assimilate into Japanese society, but meet resistance or challenges in their efforts. If you're just there to visit to enjoy the scenery and food, it will probably be a great trip.

Growing up yellow among the whites and blacks and browns in America gives me some additional insight into how foreigners will view the Japanese when they visit Japan. It's not really negativity, just a little cynicism.

Oh, well. Now I understand. We were indeed talking about two different things. I have to confess right away I only know a single person who has travelled there in order to try to integrate into the Japanese society. Now, I can see why you wrote like you did if you know some people who tried to do that with halfassed efforts or unrealistic expectations.

Summary:
Visiting is different from Integrating.

Animeniax fears people that would want to integrate Japan society when they are not japanese in the first place, doing harm to the idea he has of Japan.

Japanese Culture doesn't seem to be that threatned by tourists: ie people staying a few weeks at most, for visiting and get a feeling of what the country is.

Japanese Culture may be threatned by other things, not many of them explained in this thread yet.

Sort of. I am concerned that foreign people will visit Japan on vacation, grow to love it, then decide to move there, bringing possible bad influences with them, and altering the people that they meet, for better or worse. That's the key, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "bad" change. But what's good for some is bad for others.
This doesn't just apply to the Japanese, but all cultures. We just happen to be talking about the Japanese because of their unique circumstances and influence on the rest of the world that somehow makes people want to go there.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

Care to elaborate, or are content-lacking one-liners all you're good for?

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There is nothing to elaborate, I said everything i needed to say about your view of Amsterdam and its locals.

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Originally Posted by darkshadow

There is nothing to elaborate, I said everything i needed to say about your view of Amsterdam and its locals.

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It was just my perception of events. Of course you're looking from the other side, so how can you know? Go visit a foreign (non-caucasian) country sometime and see how the locals make you feel. I mentioned not being too happy how the Chinese take over a part of a city and make it their own, so at least I understand where any tension might come from. I'm not condemning the Dutch, just stating how they made me feel with their stares and challenging looks.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Oh, well. Now I understand. We were indeed talking about two different things.

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I should leave well enough alone, but I have to backtrack a second. It's not just the immigrants/assimilators, sometimes it's the casual visitors too. If you've seen Lost in Translation, you'll see what I mean. Of course, the movie is written/directed by people who have more exposure to the culture than the characters in the movie, who just happen to be there short-term, so its hard to distinguish who exactly is insulting the culture.

in reply to the topic:

Celebrate your culture! (Parades and festivals are big for a reason!)
Remember your history!
Take pride in your nation/ethnicity/religion/thing!

Like Assertn said, trying to protect a culture is sorta like fighting evolution. There's culture that one tries to protect, and then culture of trying to protect culture. It's going to change and assimilate new things into it, create new things. Excrement is inevitable.

I say people should just try to be themselves, whatever comes naturally to them (that isn't bad/freaky for others) and makes them happy. I think people put too much stock in shallow, self important doctrines and big, airy ideas like "culture". You have a nationality. You have a family. You have a voice. You have an existance.

No one has a culture.

http://forums.gotwoot.net/gallery/fi.../0/Cultcha.bmp

I think it's easy to dismiss culture if you come from a place that doesn't have its own strong, well-defined culture (America). But culture and its elements of language, traditions, cuisine, family structure, and practices, defines a people and separates them from other peoples. I think it is a necessary division among people, just like different uniforms are necessary to separate 2 sports teams on the field.

In Stockholm, when your going to the City, you usually see fuckin' lolitas everywhere, telling people that your a wannabe of some sort behind your back or through the net.

You know what : )?
(read lolita: some kind of similiraties individual dressed as ... "japanese/vizu kei")

I always wanted to try to smash their bodies, pull their legs to the toilet, dip their head in the hole, and flush X random times. After that I sooooo wanna smash a chair, use it's legg and beat the rest of the crap out of the damn lolita. Later I want to take sharp pieces of glass (toiler window glass!) and cut the shit on the individual.

That would make my day <3!

Damn Chiodos, I guess their words strike a chord in you. Are they calling it too close for your liking?

You're a thai guy living in Stockholm? Are the lolis Swedish or also foreigners?

Usually lolis swedish, or atleast they have stayed for many years. What I've heard, they have some kind of wierd ...cult (lack for better word) that "attacks" those who do not look japanese (read: clothes/hairstyle).

There was this wierd article just recently in the paper that was about japanese influence and all I can tell, it was mostly a wierd full load of crap. Mostly from a non-sided viewpoint (me).

Man you're making me confused. Who's Swedish, who's Japanese, and what are you and are you in Sweden?