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Hmm...good call, yet another Boy Do I Feel Stupid mark for me today in this thread. I'm on a real bad run lately.
I suppose she wouldn't rub up against anyone but Mikoto, so her hand is the obvious first choice when attempting to teleport someone or something. She did still use her hand to send them though.
Im basing this on mere guesses, no facts.
1) She still needs to wave her hands. But the fact that they are touching on her leg is enough contact
2) Its for show
*Points and laughs at* :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Come on dude, if that was true it would have taken the spikes way too long to gain such speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
What do you want, that she's a derivative of Accelerator?Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
It doesn't matter, she obviously changes all manner of direction, orientation, or speed of anything she teleports. We'll just stop viewing it in terms of real-world physics and the assumption she only changes location, and back to Esper's broken physics.
Looking at just her fight with Sherry, Kuroko changes quite a few things. Her Teleport Judo Throw switched the orientation of Sherry from vertical to horizontal without Kuroko moving at all. Furthermore, she fell parallel to the ground after Mikoto fired the railgun destroying the arm of the golem. Kuroko teleported back to vertical position, but instead of moving the same direction and speed (her back falling "down"), Kuroko landed with a much lighter landing hop (feet falling "down" at a much lower speed). She also had enough time in the limbo stuff goes through to extend her legs out again (compare 20:03 to 20:06).
The needles were sent sequentially, so she changed their layout from a tight circle around her leg to the precise pattern to pin Sherry. She obviously can control the orientation, vector and corresponding magnitude of anything she sends. Otherwise, when she shifted herself, she would hit a surface as fast as she was moving before.
There.
EDIT:
Either that or she's being deceptive about the extent of her abilities. She's not just a teleporter, she's got psychokinesis too.
From what I saw, it looked like she brushed her hand over the top of them in the lightest way possible, since they teleport at the same time as she moves. As for the ones on the back of her thigh...just animation?
Reason they fell so fast....since it's some advanced scientific city, I speculate they are really heavy and have some form of accelerating function.
If say, they're relatively simple, you could say they provide acceleration only one particular direction. Strapping them on upside down would mean it counter acting against gravity, making them reasonably light, if not almost weightless.
If you teleport them in the reverse orientation, then they add to gravity's acceleration. Add the fact that it can be made of dense material, you can obtain the penetration force depicted in the episode.
Edit after Ryll's previous post: I completely agree that she can change the orientation as well as pattern/location of the different items she teleports simultaneously. You pointed out that she can also change the vector/speed, but from what I can see, in all examples given, she's able to teleport objects from their initial vector to a stationary vector.
1) She teleported herself in front of the mage - stationary
2) She landed her flat on her back - depending on if you view it as a throw, or simply letting her land hard after teleporting her slightly (or not so slightly) off the ground - stationary
3) Teleporting the pins into the air - stationary - This one is particularly interesting since she doesn't teleport them accelerating downwards, but stationary, then accelerating downwards.
4) She teleports from a falling position to a stationary position in the air, then drops down on foot - stationary.
This is all based on the assumption that she can't manipulate objects after teleporting them.
If she does indeed possess telekinetic powers, then I agree it's entirely possible.
As for "teleporting based on familiarity" ....it's an interesting concept I guess, especially if you don't agree that she touched the pins. Because, if that was the case, then she'd potentially have a loaded supply of these pins at home or something - there'd be no reason to carry any.
Also, depending on the requirements for something to be "familiar", if a touch is all that's required, she could have summoned that magician right back to her.
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The episode transition was strange, more so than how things went from Touma to Accelerator. Like Kraco said, they've only built an image of setting of the place without advancing a greater plot as such, which is mainly the reason why I want a second season - what comes after all this introduction material?
Aisa managed to make herself a lot more interesting. While before she was just weird, monotonic etc, she's weird, monotonic AND observative. That's something only Touma seems to have in this show.
Aside from her, the jumpsuit teacher with the Anti Skill pulls my interest in that it sounds really similar to Touma's Imagine Breaker. Surely it's different just to keep Touma's trump card unique, but according to Komoe's comments and how she's summoned for missions, it seems quite powerful in its own right.
Nope, i'm not yet satisfied :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryllharu
Anyway, lets just hope we'll get to see more of her so our questions may be answered. After all, her power has many possibilities so watching her fight should be fun.
I personally don't think she can change the speed of the object she teleports. That would be too hax and be even more powerful than Accelerator since she can teleport them before changing the vectors. I can agree with the changes in position and orientation, but speed is another thing.
About the inconsistencies about her powers (like the needles piercing the ground and the like), I think they are exactly that - inconsistencies. Either it simply looks cooler so the animators did it that way, or they simply neglected or couldn't care less about realism (rightfully so since this is sci-fi/fantasy).
I think Shinta has the correct theory there... the animation team did it like this because it seemed cooler. Unless we get a 2nd season and we get a Kuroko arc we will be on the dark on the real potential of this girl.
Oh... my new nick for Index is "mobile magic wiki".
/gloves offQuote:
Originally Posted by Archangel
Let's go back to quantum theory, as we did in the discussion of Touma's power (referencing the assumptions I made after Loli Sensei's discussion about Espers).
Kuroko's powers may indeed be used the same way. She can teleport because she can guarantee the location of any particle or system of particles. The difference is she flips open box of candy after box of candy until the location of the system of particles is known there instead of here. She partially violates the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle with her power. With the needles, she may even take it a step further using that same principle. Kuroko can know with absolute certainty that the needles should now be there instead of attached to her legs. After she sends them to their new location, her power kicks back in, and as Loli Sensei said, she starts subconsciously opening box of candy after box of candy (or box of dead cat after box of dead cat). Since ESP abilities manipulate this luck, eventually Kuroko allows the other half of the Uncertainty Principle to kick back in. She knows the precise position, and the effect of knowing it changes the momentum of the particle.
So, Kuroko can either force a system of particles to be somewhere else, and let them be, or she can begin to open boxes until the momentum becomes unknown enough to move swiftly. The boxes also open in such a way that the momentum will be beneficial to her needs, either forced downward as with the needles, or slower as with herself falling.
Touma kills her power because she can't know where the particles are in the first place.
So it's either that, or shinta is right and it's something boring like wanting it to look cooler.
Completely different from the discussion at hand but the whole vampire thing, don't think they ever went through it in the anime but the necklace that Aisa is wearing works as a kind of counter to her deep blood ability. Basically she doesn't need to worry about killing vampires anymore.
Ohh and I agree with shinta
I'm having trouble with this part. The picture I get from your post is that she forcefully teleports the pins lower and lower, artificially producing an acceleration as if they're falling faster, is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryll
If so, the problem it has is that while it definitely seems like a freeze frame of an object falling faster, it won't be falling with any additional force.
When Kuroko displaces the atoms, what I understand teleport to mean is to dematerialise something and rematerialise it elsewhere. Atoms/objects don't keep their momentum, velocity or anything else. They're simply displaced. When you replace it elsewhere, it reappears with zero forces until an external force is applied after the displacement.
Displacing it lower and lower by a larger distance per time interval would "increase the rate of falling" - but only if you look at it from snapshots.
For an object of set mass, initial velocity (zero) and distance to travel faster, you have to increase the acceleration applied to the object.
In your case, it's moving faster and faster, so that's the same as acceleration, is it not? No. Because, though it's getting to a different point faster than if it was falling, it's not being accelerated. She's moving the pins to a different location, but at each sequential location, it's got zero velocity.
Comparing to that, if we took snapshots of the pins falling normally, they'd only differ to Kuroko's (your) method in that they are at a point at a given time with with a certain speed..
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In short: if you teleport objects to a different location, then sequencially teleporting them incrementally faster and faster as if they're traveling, the actual particle gains no speed because you are simply removing and placing an object elsewhere very quickly - you're not moving the object per sae, and doesn't gather speed nor momentum.
Like I said, this is based on my definition that teleportation doesn't transfer momentum. If yours is that you can make an object reappear travelling at X meters per second, then we have a disagreement on the definition of teleportation, or rather, the understanding of Kuroko's power.
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Edit: The more I'm reading this, the more I'm convinced it's just for looks. But a simple explanation like that isn't healthy for a forum now is it? ;)
Well that was, or was gonna be, exactly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
But making Ryu's brain melt is so much more fun
If you look at the scene carefully a couple of times, two things are evident: They have no initial velocity and they accelerate as fast or slow as you would any object to accelerate under Earth gravity. The other thing is we aren't actually explicitly shown how high they were teleported. You would think not very high since they seemed to hit very soon after starting to fall, but if you ask yourself in how many shounen anime you have seen a person just stare at the opponent's surprising attack from the beginning till the end instead of trying to avoid it or anything else sensible, you would probably come to the conclusion they could have been 10 meters high as well. If they are made of tungsten alloy or depleted uranium, they would gain sufficient kinetic energy from several meters to produce the kind of impacts we saw.
I never thought of that before. Well, in episode 10, you are prominently shown the necklace, but I didn't think that it would bear any significance to sealing her Deep Blood powers. Now, with this post, I think twice about it. Perhaps that's why vampires aren't going near her and dying like in the past anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireheart
I'll just use the shortened part for simplicity's sake if you don't mind too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
I might as well commit to my theory, so here goes.
The theory I introduced claims that Kuroko's power relies on the use (when it is convenient), and abuse of the Uncertainty Principle.
Heisenberg's Principle uses the basis that it is impossible to both know the location and momentum of a particle. To ascertain the precise location of a sub-atomic particle, you bounce a wave/particle of light or whatever off of what you're trying to measure. In doing that, you know the location, but now you've changed the momentum, minutely as it is. Conversely, you can figure out the momentum, but then you're never sure where it is.
Kuroko uses this to displace objects. She knows exactly how something is moving (or not at all) so she forces its location elsewhere using the basic Esper principles Loli-Sensei explained. She'll keep flipping open figurative boxes of candy until the unknown location of the object or person is where she would rather have it be.
Conversely, when she moves the needles, she performs a follow up with her ability. She knows exactly where they are going to be (precise enough to pierce Sherry's clothes but not skin) so she begins flipping open figurative boxes of candy until the momentum of the needles is no longer certain (they were previously known to be stationary attached to her thigh) and when she lets go, they thrust downward.
The key point is Loli-Sensei's explantion. Espers are manipulating quantum theory to their benefit. Kuroko use/abuses the Uncertainty Principle through that.
@Archie:
Nah, now that I've gone overboard into physics, it's more of a college refresher.
EDIT:
To summarize: Using an Esper's ability to manipulate the uncertainty of a situation into a certainty that benefits them, Kuroko is using the uncertainties inherent in all particles due to Heisenberg's Principle to affect the location and momentum of whatever she sends.
Thanks for explaining that Ryll. I (now) agree that it's a valid theory, considering the quantum mechanics behind Kuroko's powers.
You say that as if any of you knew any quantum physics.
If you have a suggestion, feel free to share it.Quote:
Originally Posted by poopdeville
I don't deny my level of understanding isn't on par with some of the other members we've got. I'm simply saying that if this is true:ie - Kuroko's power is the ability to use this Heisengerg's Principle to her will, then it does open up the possibility that she can control momentum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryll
Also, I don't necessarily have to agree or believe that's the case neither.
My opinion is that these esp powers are by default narrow but powerful rather than broad. It differentiates them from the magic that is a collection of spells for any purpose. Though I'm not saying this needs to be the case, but I'd initially think so until proven otherwise.
And like I said earlier, if you have a look at the video, those spikes had no initial velocity but started to drop quite lazily under normal gravity. So, Kuroko would need to be able to control their acceleration without even touching them, when they are already out there. I hardly think that's the case. Even Accelerator couldn't do that.
the other possibility is that those spikes are very heavy. While on her, they carry no weight because her power maybe transfers the mass somewhere, but once teleported, they become dangerous tools.
But that's a bit weak. I guess that if she has those spikes, she can do more than just have them use gravity, or that'd lead to a very limited use. I can't see the use of having those spikes if you're not able to throw them at incredible speeds in any direction. So I guess she knows a way using her power, or she'd use something else as weapons.