Hunter x Hunter 2011

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Originally Posted by Carnage

Chakra: Both chakra and nen gave way to more intricate abilities than Chi/Reitsu.

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And they're both lazy writing.

Ki is just "inner energy my characters can shape themselves" while Nen/Chakra is "Ki I can make do anything my plot requires".

It's all just poorly defined magic shit, or defined magic shit that the writer ignores anyway whenever he needs it to.

That's how all shounen anime is.

1. Introduce mystical energy.

2. Explain rules for mystical energy.

3. Introduce characters that ignore those rules. Call them "special".

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Originally Posted by Carnage

Kuripaka/Gon: Sorry I meant to type Killua/Gon. Yes the rivalry of the pure protagonist with his shrewd best friend is a common throughout shonen genre, but Gon's best friend having an obsessive relationship with a criminal older brother doesn't sound familiar? If not also coming from an elite mercenary family? Weren't the Uchihas the police of Konoha?

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I actually think you were right the first time.

Gon and Naruto are both typical shounen protagonists. But Sasuke is a lot more like Kurapica than he is like Killua.

I mean Sasuke/Kurapica is literally two character obsessed with obtaining power so they can avenge the slaughter of their clans. Also magic eyes.

Sasuke is just Kurapica if you take away Kurapica's redeeming qualities.

Killua may have the whole "comes from an elite family" thing in common with Sasuke, but their personalities couldn't be more different. Killua is geniunely friendly with his rival, he has a playful personality, and his driving motivation isn't vengeance, it's freedom.

I'll grant you the nen/chakra since yes every anime does have it. But you really can't ignore everything else. Togashi is a very original writer, his story is always refreshingly creative. But for kishimoto are just so many instances in which Naruto parallels HXH.

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Originally Posted by DarthEnder

That's how all shounen anime is.

1. Introduce mystical energy.

2. Explain rules for mystical energy.

3. Introduce characters that ignore those rules. Call them "special".

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Has this actually happened in HxH?

Gon is 'special', but he's also reinforcement and his powers are pretty generic.

The Nen rules are applied pretty consistently. Even the exceptions, which are "allowed" in a moment of passion, but have terrible consequences.

No, the only 2 known cases (i can remember right now at least) that has this "special" status you speak of that let's them ignore rules is Kurapica and Chrollo. Kurapica can utilize all groups at 100% and Chrollo can learn unlimited amount of nen-skills and use those specific skills at 100% regardless of group they belong to. And neither ability has any consequences.

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Originally Posted by Carnage

I'll grant you the nen/chakra since yes every anime does have it. But you really can't ignore everything else.

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I didn't argue with anything else.

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Originally Posted by TwisT

No, the only 2 known cases (i can remember right now at least) that has this "special" status you speak of that let's them ignore rules is Kurapica and Chrollo. Kurapica can utilize all groups at 100% and Chrollo can learn unlimited amount of nen-skills and use those specific skills at 100% regardless of group they belong to. And neither ability has any consequences.

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How are those two "special without consequences"?
Kurapica is limited to use his powers on Spider-members only. He´d totally lose against Gon, for example.
Crollo can copy anything, but he can only use one power at a time. And has to hold his book while doing so.

It´d be unfair to put HXH in the same camp as most other shounen-series, as it REALLY does a better-than-typical job at presenting abilities.

The only thing Kurapika cannot use is his chains. He can use his red eye specialist ability against anyone, but it does drain him like the sharingan does to its user.

They aren't ignoring the rules. They specifically mentioned the Specialist type as a catch all for these random OP abilities. It is a cheap way to do it, but they still maintained the rules.

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Originally Posted by shinta|hikari

They aren't ignoring the rules. They specifically mentioned the Specialist type as a catch all for these random OP abilities. It is a cheap way to do it, but they still maintained the rules.

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The Specialist is clearly a cop-out to explain any ability required by the plot but poorly fitting any of the real, defined slots. But then again, you can also argue that the whole system is poorly understood on the level of theory, despite people being able to use awesome powers, so the whole diagram is fundamentally flawed (their belief of how nen works doesn't match the reality, leaving them with a category of powers that can't be explained. Kind of like RL physics have had and still have mysterious universal constants that make calculations seemingly work yet those constants aren't always explained by any solid theory).

I would question just how 'overpowered' these specialist abilities are. I haven't seen an ability that is inherently better than the more generic ones. Neither Chrollo or Kurapika's abilities particularly impress me all that much.

Sure Chrollo can copy nen abilities but he has a lot of strict rules to adhere to.

Similarly, Kurapika may be able to temporarily use all nen types at 100% efficiency with his eyes activated, but he would still have to spend quite a bit of time training these abilities. Since he gets fatigued from using his eyes too much, it does not make much sense to prioritize other nen categories over his own. Emperor Time may have helped him out in a pinch against Uvo, but ultimately it was his Chains that allowed him to triumph. Also, if the fight between Kastro and Hisoka showed us anything, it was that straying too far from your category is a recipe for disaster.

I feel that the Enhancer, Emitter and Transmuter categories are more well-rounded. If anything, the affordance given Conjurers and Manipulators to become Specialists later on probably balances thing.

I think Kurapica's emperor time is probably OP, but that depends on how this nen thing works. Each of kurapica's chains has a different ability. Kurapica conjures his chains, and gives them abilities. Is there anything stopping someone who is not a conjurer from buying a chain and imbuing said chain with abilities similar to kurapica? If the answer to that is "yes", then emperor time is overpowered.

Keep in mind that Kurapica learned about nen at the same time as Gon and Killua. Yet, Kurapica defeated a spider specialized in combat, in a 1v1 death match, and left the fight without so much as a scratch. Gon and Killua, despite having immense innate talent (that we're supposed to believe is above and beyond Kurapica's innate talent), can't hold a candle to any of the spiders. It was the reinforcement nen that caused Uvo to have to dodge those chains the way he did. He probably could've blocked them otherwise. It was also the reinforcement nen that caused Kurapica to not explode on contact when Uvo hit him with 100% power. I suspect it was the reinforcement nen that allowed Kurapica to physically keep up with Uvo's speed. And all of this he did while testing various things, instead of just killing Uvo as efficiently as possible.

Something's not quite balanced here.

Well you shouldn't confuse his nen-ability "Emperor Time" with his Vow/Restriction that he has placed on himself. Only reason he out preforms Gon and Killuha is the restriction he placed on himself. I usually think of it as a focusing lens, restricting the area at which you shine the light but the light becomes much more intense at the area it can shine on. Like a laser beam.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

How are those two "special without consequences"?
Kurapica is limited to use his powers on Spider-members only. He´d totally lose against Gon, for example.
Crollo can copy anything, but he can only use one power at a time. And has to hold his book while doing so.

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Those aren't consequences. The word consequence indicates that there is something bad by using the powers. That you would lose something for the power you gain. Non of them lose anything. They only gain. Kurapica can use his Eyes/Specialist powers against anyone. He just has problem getting the mojo going unless it has something to do with the Spiders. Shinta said that too and also mentioned a drain in power while activated. That would be a consequence. But i have seen nothing that says or indicates that he get drained while having his eyes activated. Maybe i just missed or forgot some detail that has stated this for a fact. As for Chrollo those ain't consequences either. Have you seen anyone use more then 1 power at the same time? Only one i can think of would be Kurapica that used "Chain Jail" and the healing chain at the same time but that could be argued that both are 2 different applications of the same power.

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Originally Posted by Splash!

Similarly, Kurapika may be able to temporarily use all nen types at 100% efficiency with his eyes activated, but he would still have to spend quite a bit of time training these abilities. Since he gets fatigued from using his eyes too much, it does not make much sense to prioritize other nen categories over his own. Emperor Time may have helped him out in a pinch against Uvo, but ultimately it was his Chains that allowed him to triumph. Also, if the fight between Kastro and Hisoka showed us anything, it was that straying too far from your category is a recipe for disaster.

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Can you clue me in on where i can find this statement that he gets fatigued for using his eyes? And the fact is that Kurapica uses all nen groups all the time. His entire chain utilizes most groups. Without Emperor Time it would be almost useless against a Spider. Chain jail that activates Zetsu is a Manipulator ability. The healing chain is enhancer. The judgement chain should be Manipulator powers. And the reason the chain is as strong and fast as it is, is because of the combined element of Conjurer, Manipulation and Enhancement (maybe even Emission). Kastro vs Hisoka showed us what happens when you focus on another group and you ain't Kurapica.

I seem to recall a brief moment after Kurapica killed Uvo when he said or thought to himself something along the lines of "I stayed in that state too long" after he "shut down" his red-eyes.

As I haven't read the manga or watched the original anime, it must have been in this new version... either that or my brain made that shit up for some reason.

It was in this show.

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Originally Posted by shinta|hikari

The only thing Kurapika cannot use is his chains. He can use his red eye specialist ability against anyone, but it does drain him like the sharingan does to its user.

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His chains are his powers... each chain represents a technique. So, since he can't use (most) of his chains on anybody but the spider, he is pretty much defense-less against anyone else.

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Originally Posted by poopdeville

His chains are his powers... each chain represents a technique. So, since he can't use (most) of his chains on anybody but the spider, he is pretty much defense-less against anyone else.

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I think only the chain that forces the zetsu state on his opponents has the restriction that it can only be used on the spiders. The chain he used to smash Uvo with is freely used, the lie detector chain/location person or object chain can be used freely, and I can't think of a reason the "condition obedience" chain can't be used freely. If I recall correctly, he used that chain to improve the restriction on the zetsu forcing chain, but it does not have a restriction itself.

Kurapika is using his chains in combination with his Emperor Time because that makes the most sense. Why not combine two existing powers to create an even more powerful one? This is the most efficient way, but not the only way.

He can, for example, fight hand to hand using Reinforcement. That does not have anything to do with his chains, but is a power given solely by his eyes.

So really, he's not THAT screwed once the Spiders are all dead.

I mean, he just can't use his chains. So couldn't he just learn to Conjur something else?

And even if he can't, he can still use his other powers half-assed.

I mean, that's probably not enough to allow him to keep up during a shounen plot, but that probably won't happen till the end of the series anyway. And he'll probably still be strong enough to earn a living anyway.

Hisoka is one sneakyass mofo.

55 is out!

(late, but obligatory to consistently indicate new episode release)

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Originally Posted by Penner

Hisoka is one sneakyass mofo.

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He was walking quite a fine line between succeeding and failing. Funnily enough he still injected enough truth in it to keep sounding convincing should the others learn more about Kurapika. He's a real hunter (not referring to Hunters) stalking his prey and every bit as intelligent.