The Non-Effort of Isekai Anime - Why don't the try more and what are the Good Ones?

Watched episode 1 of Fushigi Yuugi. It definitely doesn't feel like a high quality story when I compare it to Escaflowne; however, when I compare it to our modern isekai trash like Yakkyoku, it's massive step up. If only because of the superior character designs. Girls have a nose, OMG°!!1

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Originally Posted by Kraco

What a thread... Ryll already said as much, but I'll underline it: isekai is trash. That's why people say: isekai trash. All of it. No serious author will touch is anymore, I imagine. It's the epitome of escapism literature because the very core of the setting is an ordinary person from our world getting transported in some way to a fantasy world. How much more directly could an author point at a reader and say: "Imagine this happening to you."

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And that is FREAKING EXCITING. That's why I disagree with the whole "isekai is inherently trash". It's not. Those in power make it trash.

The biggest issue with isekai that there IS a template. Let me try:

- teenage hero
- generic medieval world that doesn't matter
- battle and magic not reliant on skill, but videogame-like system, allowing the hero to get powerful without effort
- following from above: being overpowered
- loved by all girls he meets
- shows no attachment to previous life
- over-the-top, often comical, cartoonish feel

Here's the thing: NONE of the above points are required for an isekai story. It doesn't neccesate any of these. Making a great isekai story would be as "easy" (not per se easy, because writing a good story takes actual effort, ofc) as NOT doing the points I mentioned. Just imagine the following:

- adult hero, age 40
- medieval world with rich lore with a couple of peculiarities
- people do battles, but hero needs to learn how to handle a sword, a bow, etc
- he/she's not overpowered, constantly at danger, needs to rely on new found friends
- gets a crush on a girl, but it isn't easily reciprocate; better even: romance interest changes over the course of the story, isn't set in stone from episode 1
- often reminisces about his/her old life, family, friends; actually wants to find a way back
- down-to-earth presentation; cannot defeat opponents by loud screaming and a fullscreen-effect, no singular overpowered characters that only a chosen group of heroes can match

Take this and it'd be a fantastic anime. And none of this took much thinking efforts, I just wrote this down as it came to my mind. Someone actually sitting down to write a story would easily come up with more interesting intricacies even. But nobody tries.

Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Those in power make it trash.

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Eh? You make it sound like there's a secret cabal who graces what gets greenlit for an anime cash-in adaptation based on their personal preferences.

Like I said in the much earlier post, most of these are created by self-publisher authors. Their Web Novel (WN) gets big, someone offers to publish it officially as a Light Novel (LN), it gets (barely) improved with an editor, they might get paired with good illustrator, makes a ton of money, and a bunch of them get an anime once they're popular. They might get a manga adaptation as a cross-promotion for a different artist.

What gets written is what sells, and what sells is what gets picked up by publishers.

No different from traditional novel publishers. Except the illustrator part.

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Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?

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Production Committees. Funimation published a pretty decent article on it, since they're often involved in them now.

Because they pick a product to make money on with the least risk of failure, proliferate the production of merch/goods, or to market/promo existing LNs/Manga/Videogames. They multiply the returns on those doing well, attempt a recovery of those starting to slump, or as part of a mixed media project.
The OP/EDs are selected in exactly the same way. To promote a popular act or band using an existing song; the anime production committee is successfully lobbied by those bands/producers to write a corresponding title to get the musical act promoted; or both collaborate to combine popular franchise and popular act to cross-promote and encourage consumption for both.

As Western companies get more heavily involved on those Production Committees, we get increasingly odd selections. Like the crap adaptation of Hoshi no Samidare, a series that ended some time ago, but western fans constantly clamored for their desire for an anime. And it got a lowest-bidder production house. But hey, it renewed some Crunchyroll subscriptions no doubt.

Ryll, I understand the basic concept of why something is chosen, I've been following video game sales for over 20 years now. But with isekai anime it's like, if I used a video game analogy, an industry where only shitty BandaiNamco arena fighters are made and Nintendo-games don't exist. And yet despite costing A LOT more money to make, Nintendo makes games like Breath of the Wild, Xenoblade 3 or Mario Odyssey, games that are clearly made with more than cheap profit in mind.

So that's what I don't understand: Why is there nobody in the anime industry that *wants* to adapt a great story? You'd think that every 10 shitty isekai, there'd be a good one, but even that's not the case. A shitty ecchi pedo show like Mushoku Tensei is celebrated as one of the best isekai, that says it all.

Is the anime business really this creatively bankrupt that they ONLY choose lightnovels that fit the existing template and then go with that because it makes money? I just don't want to believe that.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Is the anime business really this creatively bankrupt that they ONLY choose lightnovels that fit the existing template and then go with that because it makes money? I just don't want to believe that.

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Yes. They want to make money, they want to stay in business, they don't want to be the next Gainax or GONZO.

When they want to do original series, they do what interests them (or what sells). That might be Odd Taxi, Lycoris Recoil, Vivy, Zombie Land Saga, or Girls und Panzer. And a lot of the time those passion projects flop.

They're not "creatively bankrupt" because they don't do what you want them to do or believe they should be doing.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

That's why I disagree with the whole "isekai is inherently trash". It's not. Those in power make it trash.

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It wasn't trash in the beginning. Isekai's roots are as deep as any other literature genre's. Isekai exists in folklore. You could also say Divine Comedy is a type of isekai. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is a modern archetype. It wasn't trash in the beginning in the context of manga/anime either. It's just my personal opinion, but it probably wasn't yet considered trash when Sword Art Online appeared. It's the structure of the Japanese entertainment industry that made it trash.

Generally speaking when a work of fictional literature is praised by critics, literature researches, and other authors, it needs not only be an inspired work that fulfills all the conditions of good writing, it also typically needs to reach beyond entertainment. It needs to be an allegory, to analyse/criticise the contemporary society and politics. Many works of science fiction are considered to be such: they are considered to emphasize what's wrong about the current world. There's no reason why isekai couldn't do everything mentioned, but in reality it's just cheap escapism literature, like I said earlier.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Take this and it'd be a fantastic anime. And none of this took much thinking efforts, I just wrote this down as it came to my mind. Someone actually sitting down to write a story would easily come up with more interesting intricacies even. But nobody tries.

Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?

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Yeah, nobody does. Either nobody takes it seriously in Japan anymore, or it's futile even if someone does. When I think about it, I always think about Bakuman, which explained, all those years ago, how haphazard the industry is and how it practically kills the authors' genuine innovation and desire to produce great, novel works.

Maybe you should have a look at the manga "Karate Survivor in Another World". It might amuse you for a little while because it ticks at least a couple of your boxes, even if not all, obviously (because masterpiece isekai isn't produced in any form). I don't believe it's a popular manga in Japan or anywhere. It didn't even get a real English translator group.

Characters wanting to get back does exist in some isekai, but it's superficial. The whole point of the story, typically, is to present a more interesting world for the reader struggling with the pressures of the Japanese society, so it clashes with that to have the character try to get back. Thus most of the time it's there just to make the character supposedly more believable psychologically. In the more edgelordish works you'd think the MC wanted to get back (because he's immediately betrayed and goes through various forms of suffering), but naturally in these works the MC still becomes a god among men soon enough, so why bother?

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Characters wanting to get back does exist in some isekai, but it's superficial. The whole point of the story, typically, is to present a more interesting world for the reader struggling with the pressures of the Japanese society, so it clashes with that to have the character try to get back. Thus most of the time it's there just to make the character supposedly more believable psychologically. In the more edgelordish works you'd think the MC wanted to get back (because he's immediately betrayed and goes through various forms of suffering), but naturally in these works the MC still becomes a god among men soon enough, so why bother?

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That's what I don't get though: Wouldn't it be SUPER AWESOME if an isekai hero returned to his world, except with his then newfound confidence and physical (and maybe even magical) abilities? Think of Isekai Ojisan, except in a serious story. What satisfying payoff would that be when the mc returns and all those people that previously shunned him, hated him, called him a loser, are now shown what his true potential was, if only his environment hadn't be shitty/toxic?

The name won't come to me, but there's a good, old anime series that is kinda like that, where the heroes return to the real world in the middle of the anime, then go back to the magical world. Heck, Digimon does it, too, although there's less societal drama.

Really, for me, the Isekai genre is a well of infinite creativity. I won't ever be able to cope with how the industry refuses to tap its potential.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

That's what I don't get though: Wouldn't it be SUPER AWESOME if an isekai hero returned to his world, except with his then newfound confidence and physical (and maybe even magical) abilities? Think of Isekai Ojisan, except in a serious story. What satisfying payoff would that be when the mc returns and all those people that previously shunned him, hated him, called him a loser, are now shown what his true potential was, if only his environment hadn't be shitty/toxic?

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If the attraction of the story is to live another, more fulfilling life in a new world, isn't it pointless to return? If we automatically exclude reincarnation ones, or even possession ones, and only considering the summoning stories, then there might be some sense in it. And indeed that's where you occasionally have those MCs who are at least superficially trying to find a way to return. Still, the fact remains that the point is a better world where the character lives a better life. Just returning to show your old acquiantances that you are a chad now is hardly worth it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all isekai MCs were shunned or bullied. Many of them are simply ordinary Japanese people, who were hit by a truck or got summoned. They are just tired of the eternal rat race, which is the Japanese society.

If we think about old series, then things are different. It would be before the time isekai became trash. Before it became cheap escapism literature. Such isekai would typically employ the normal structure of fiction, which includes character growth and struggle. It's not the instant gratification overpowered MC who can solve everybody problem because he's so awesome. Old isekai is just fantasy, which happened to have a person or persons transferring to another world. The main point of the story isn't that, though, it's the adventure.

Returning to show your bullies who is the boss would suit the edgelord niche genre better. Quite often the bullies are taken to the new world as well, though, removing the need to return to our world. Although I have read a bunch of edgelord manga, I don't get into it that much, psychologically, so I can't really say if being the king in the new world or returning here to have a revenge would be more satisfying for the intended audience. I was never bullied, so I've no business trying to speak for the victims. Surprisingly enough few such series seem to have returnees. Or maybe it's just because the series haven't ended yet, haha.

MFauli, you keep talking about having an adult (non-teenager) hero, but how many animes have that? most of the protagonists in any genre are middle\high schoolers, occasionally some young adults.
Gutts starts the story as a teenager, Kenshiro is probably early 20's, Kenshin is mid twenties at most. there are some protagonists which are the high twenties, but those belong in office life stories, maybe.

Another shity part of isekais is the art, not that it's bad. but it's bland. the person who writes the story isn't the illustrator, so the art doesn't enhance the action. and in many cases, the art is just the same. it's the same europe inspired fantasy world with japanese school uniforms. the guild looks the same (there is always a guild), the streets look the same, and the prison cell has bars disappearing to show the faces behined it. It sometimes feels like they have some photos and they run it through an image filter to create backgrounds.

Isekai Ojisan is great, because it actually says something about the type of heros the genre sends to isekai adventures. he's a Japanese otaku, who was probably slightly awkward as a normal person, but faced with the hell which was the other world, he retreated further into himself, up to the level where he couldn't recognize when others wanted to open up to him. his suffering is self-inflicted, because that's how he perceived his life.

"return to revenge" story is mostly self-defeating as a plot. you went to another world, met people, made friends, overcame hardships, learned stuff about yourself, had to face enemies who hated you and bridge those differences. having to come back to the real world just to be mean to other kids is pathetic. it shows that the adventure didn't change you. "the real treasure was the friends we made on the journey" is a cliché, but it's true for most stories.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

If the attraction of the story is to live another, more fulfilling life in a new world, isn't it pointless to return?

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You keep going in circles, Kraco.

WHY must every isekai anime be like you say? "Isn't it pointless to return?" - maybe for 99% of isekai anime it is. But why cannot there be one where it's not pointless?

@Death Boo: Not sure why you talk about "revenge". Just someone who was weak and bullied and an outcast, returning and being a great, strong person.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

WHY must every isekai anime be like you say? "Isn't it pointless to return?" - maybe for 99% of isekai anime it is. But why cannot there be one where it's not pointless?

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I don't know why they must be like that, but out of the countless isekai manga I've read, fully or partially, not many have been about successfully returning. If there are many web novels with successful returnees, they haven't gained enough popularity to become manga or anime. So, that's just how it is. It boils down to the laws of the Japanese entertainment industry and what the Japanese audience wants to read and watch.

Personally I don't mind. I read isekai for the fantasy world adventure, so if the characters return to Earth, it's not anymore fantasy world adventure. It's also why I'm not so interested in the "restaurant between two worlds" kind of isekai.

what would "great, strong person" mean in this context? in some ways this is contradictory to the dna of the genre.

if the hero goes through all of the adventure, just to learn real human skills and discover the worth of honest work, and then he returns to a world where those skills are appreciated (he is able to sit and study six hours for his exams, she gathers the courage and asks the boy out, they mend the broken relationship with the family), then that's an endorsement of the state of the world (japan), and that doesn't mesh well with the escapism nature of the genre. if the actual world is a decent place where decent people are rewarded, then what does it say about the reader who wishes to get away from it? this works as an epilogue to a story, but if you try to make it into the actual plot, the whole thing deflates.
(see also: Tanya the evil)

in contrast, a "revenge-ing" story fits the mold of the genre, the hero is good but the world he lives in is bad, but in another world he can be rewarded for his innate goodness (which is being the author avatar/self insert), and he gains the power to dispense justice over those who mistreated him. now he has the power to cruel, and the reader can delight in that just like how he previously delighted in the hero being OP and having SSS cheat skills and being amazing, or like how young readers enjoy gutts slaying 100 soldiers in a horrible fashion. brutality is marketable.

lets say the hero was bullied at the beginning of the story, then we would eventually want the plot point to conclude. he comes back from the fantasy world after becoming strong.
what are the options?
1. he defeats the bullies and walks into the sunset. end of story.
2. he beats the shit out of them and humiliates them, every day in school is him winning over those who once looked down on him.
3. he helps the bullies overcome the issues that made them bad people, and he spends the story helping others.
4. he beats the bullies once, they no longer bother him, and he goes on with his life. what happens now?

i can't imagine the story at point 4. and even points 2,3 are weird, because they represent a shift in setting and tone that would be incompatible with the isekai fantasy story that was going on so far.

there is a story 'a returner's magic remains the strongest' (or something), mc comes back, beats the bullies from the moment before he was isekaid, and then the story begins. with the story being "ordinary high school student has amazing powers and discovers there is an underground secret world in the shadows of our society, and he fights an evil organization of magic powered people along with new allies". so it's basically bleach\flame of recca\bosuo renkin\yyh or any other manga ever.

The funniest part of all this to me is that the joke isekai ("non-serious" as MFauli has been calling them), actually do all the things he wants.

- Adult protagonists, want to return home, growth in the other world shows of more of their potential when (or if) they return, challenge their issues head on, have mature character growth as the story progresses, etc.

Isekai Ojisan (it's low-key and it is there, but the story is a slow burn), Fantasy Bishoujo Juniku Ojisan to (it's very obvious here and actually well-done, but series is still open ended). There's a couple others that are manga/manwha only and I can't remember the name of them at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Personally I don't mind. I read isekai for the fantasy world adventure, so if the characters return to Earth, it's not anymore fantasy world adventure. It's also why I'm not so interested in the "restaurant between two worlds" kind of isekai.

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The interesting thing about Restaurant in Another World specifically is that it is actually a reverse-isekai and that individual never wanted to go back home. The other denizens who cross always do go back home at the end of their shifts or visits.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

@Death Boo: Not sure why you talk about "revenge". Just someone who was weak and bullied and an outcast, returning and being a great, strong person.

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Originally Posted by Death BOO Z

"return to revenge" story is mostly self-defeating as a plot. you went to another world, met people, made friends, overcame hardships, learned stuff about yourself, had to face enemies who hated you and bridge those differences. having to come back to the real world just to be mean to other kids is pathetic. it shows that the adventure didn't change you. "the real treasure was the friends we made on the journey" is a cliché, but it's true for most stories.

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DBZ already covered one angle, it represents a reverse in growth to show off (or revenge) that a power-fantasy in an escapist world fixed what hard work, desperation, diligence, or adversity in the real world couldn't do. But it also undermines character growth on the whole. If only an external experience and superpowers, fawning harem or individual romantic interests, and a fabricated and simplified world changes a person, was there any actual personal growth achieved at all? It's typically very shallow: "I got powers and that gave me confidence I never had before." Nerds always become attractive bishonen through some handwave bullshit that's almost always LitRPG garbage.

That's actually a problem I have with a lot of Korean power-fantasy manwha and why they always lose my interest over time as they drag out. They only numerically improve. They improve in appearance and power, but it's all a facade that avoids legitimate character growth. The authors gloss over any actual character development.

Give me a nerd who turns into a bishonen and is still a fucking coward until they actually overcome their trauma mentally. Oh wait, Mushoku Tensei actually did that, which is why I commended it for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Death BOO Z

lets say the hero was bullied at the beginning of the story, then we would eventually want the plot point to conclude. he comes back from the fantasy world after becoming strong.
what are the options?
1. he defeats the bullies and walks into the sunset. end of story.
2. he beats the shit out of them and humiliates them, every day in school is him winning over those who once looked down on him.
3. he helps the bullies overcome the issues that made them bad people, and he spends the story helping others.
4. he beats the bullies once, they no longer bother him, and he goes on with his life. what happens now?

i can't imagine the story at point 4. and even points 2,3 are weird, because they represent a shift in setting and tone that would be incompatible with the isekai fantasy story that was going on so far.

there is a story 'a returner's magic remains the strongest' (or something), mc comes back, beats the bullies from the moment before he was isekaid, and then the story begins. with the story being "ordinary high school student has amazing powers and discovers there is an underground secret world in the shadows of our society, and he fights an evil organization of magic powered people along with new allies". so it's basically bleach\flame of recca\bosuo renkin\yyh or any other manga ever.

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Agreed.

Xianxia and other martial arts series just fundamentally do this better. There's no need to do an isekai element with them because that's a waste of time getting to the actual plot, so they just don't get written.

The revenge/edgelord type specifically can't have real character growth because they are all about the MC getting their revenge in the most straightforward sense imaginable. Of course he also is rewarded in the process by gaining awesome powers, everybody respecting/fearing him, and a harem of girls surrounding him. If you try to insert (mental) character growth into that, you risk losing the audience. In Japan, the bullying victims have heard a thousand times that they need to grow up and deal with it. They don't want to read the same thing in their comfort material.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

If you try to insert (mental) character growth into that, you risk losing the audience. In Japan, the bullying victims have heard a thousand times that they need to grow up and deal with it. They don't want to read the same thing in their comfort material.

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It worked in GTO, which is great comfort material, just of a more relatable sort. Character growth and a counterargument to Japanese societal norm concerning bullying.

Isekais just aren't well written, because they enable BAD writing.

omg, guys, I never meant "getting revenge". Alright, let me go full fanfic so I can get you to understand what I meant:

- Cour 1: Introduction to hero who's a total loser irl. Hero lands in isekai, is totally lost. He's weak, alien to the world, and must give his all to survive
- Cour 2: Hero has found his place, some friends, and follows a clearly formulated goal that has nothing to do with himself
- Cour 3: Hero surprisingly finds lead that hints at a way to return to his own world. Ends with successful return
- Cour 4: With newfound confidence and abilities, hero returns to family and friends. Complex emotional reactions, from "who is that?", to "oh no the loser is back" to "I'm so glad youre alive". No comically evil family. Entire cour shows hero readjusting to our world again, except with the social skills he acquired during the months of hardship in the isekai. Family and friends will have moments of realization, like "he grew so much as a person. Maybe we were at fault, too ...", while there might also be bullies that hero can fend off with ease thanks to his new physical prowess (without brutally beating them up).
- Cour 5: Evil villain threatens to follow from isekai into real word, therefore hero must return to isekai. Says goodbye to everyone and the he probably won't return. Heartfelt farewells with family and friends, and we get to see what happened in the isekai that we grow to know during the first 3 cours. The end.

That's what I mean. You're all thinking in the frameset of a typical cheap, shallow isekai story that runs for 13 episodes, 26 at best. I imagine a full-blown fantasy adventure, and returning doesn't result in some shortlived, cartoonish "revenge", but actually complex feelings. Think less Isekai Yakkyoku and more Claymore/Lodoss.

I guess if you consider Rosaria + Vampire an isekai, yes, that exists. Manga only.

But "Cour 4" is like a handful of chapters.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

I guess if you consider Rosaria + Vampire an isekai, yes, that exists. Manga only.

But "Cour 4" is like a handful of chapters.

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Rosario is an episodic ecchi-comedy anime, not sure how after everything you got the impression that would be anything close to what I'm talking about.

It is an isekai, or at least a "parallel world" series. Which is what an isekai is. It's just not a high fantasy one.

But yes, it hits every point. Not sure if you read the manga to completion, but you'd know I'm right if you had.

The pace and tone of the first cour of the anime and where the manga ends are shockingly different.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

It worked in GTO, which is great comfort material, just of a more relatable sort. Character growth and a counterargument to Japanese societal norm concerning bullying.

Isekais just aren't well written, because they enable BAD writing.

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What does GTO have to do with isekai? Or from the opposite perspective, how could you write a story like GTO by making it work like an isekai series? The full name of it is Great Teacher Onizuka. It's obviously not going to be about a bullied kid enabled to exact brutal, bloody revenge, practically becoming a dictator himself. I said before that since I wasn't a bullied kid, I can't really imagine their thought processes, so I might not know what I'm talking about, but is GTO a series aimed at bullying victims? They never had a great teacher helping them. They only had the stock Japanese teacher, whose greatest worry is the reputation of the school and who would tell the bullied kid that it's his/her own fault that they are bullied and they should suck it up. In other word, teachers were their enemies as well, or at least not allies. I can honestly see the attraction of edgelord manga much better. GTO was great fun, for sure, for someone who wasn't bullied but saw bullying from a third person perspective. That I'm not denying.

gonna use this thread to talk about isekai in general.

just finished reading the 70something chapters of "Saving 80000 Gold Coins In The Different World For My Old Age", which is very similar to "reincarnated with potion making cheat ability" by the same author. I like both stories, if only for how unapologetic they are about abusing the power the MC has and introducing society breaking changes to the world. but that got me thinking about the fantasy element, because on the surface, they aren't about a power fantasy, the protagonist girl is powerful and nearly invincible, but the story doesn't relish in that power, it helps solve problems, but it's not important for the hero. instead, the focus / main activity of the hero is work. she wants to run a small business, interact with others, have cute girls as employees, etc... which is kind of a weird power fantasy to have.
but then there's another thing, it's not just owning a business, it's about being protected by nobles, having powerful people as friends, being able to throw that clout around when some asshole businessman tries to intimidate her, or being able to fire and retaliate against someone who tried taking advantage of her being a young, being a girl, being poor. and on the flipside of it, she's not just selling 100yen stuff at a high markup, she's offering consultation, she's making task reforms, she's giving orders, and being listened to.
so maybe that's the fantasy part? that would also cover "ascendance of the bookworm" and "sengoku komachi kuroutan". maybe it's not about escaping the work-force grind, and it's about being valued for being part of it?