Bleach 192

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Originally Posted by Nadouku

That voice was... interesting, to say the least.

Now we have the many different colored Ceros! Yellow for Nnoitra and pink for Nel! How many more colors will they think of next?

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Gold is the King Cero (I forget the name but think this is right..) thing, the one only Espada can use. Grimjow used it during his fight with Ichigo.

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Anyways, I was thinking about Pesche and Dondochakka. Since Pesche refers to Nel as "Nel-sama" and recognizes this "nostalgic" Spirit Force, does that mean that they were once part of her Fracción? I could be wrong, but the way they said it could mean something like that.

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I agree, I'm sure they were her subordinates.

Cero colors seem to be pretty much unique to each Espada, same as how they're fired off. Ulquiorra fires with one finger, Nel uses her mouth (insert dirty connotation here), Grimmjow can use it with a closed fist... and the list goes on.

In regards to Pesche and Dondochakka being Fraccion, I have a feeling they may be popping out with powers of their own now that Nel has gone back to being an Espada.

And as for the Privaron Espada and current Espada argument, I think that the Privaron Espada were exactly as they say, Espada who lost their rank because someone stronger came along. Aizen didn't have to create all of them, some may have evolved on their own to be stronger. It seems that the Hougyoku just enables the free creation of an Arrancar rather than the Arrancar creating itself by removing its mask. So, if that is true, the Arrancar that Aizen creates are not necessarily stronger than any other Arrancar. Which would mean that the Privaron Espada were just simply beaten out. The only advantage to the Hougyoku version of Arrancar is that I assume Aizen can create them at will instead of waiting for a natural occurence, and also that he can pick Hollow with abilities or strength that he wants (which would be how he creates "stronger" Espada) and convert selectively AKA picking the cream of the crop.
This theory is supported by the explanation given by Toushirou when he first explained the ranks of the Menos. Gillian, Adjuchas, and Vasto Lorde. He said "if Aizen brought XX number of Vasto Lordes under his control, Soul Society is finished". That would indicate that Aizen still has to find the Vasto Lordes, and convert them into Arrancar on his own. That also indicates that the Menos power level carries on when the Menos is converted to an Arrancar, therefore if Aizen converts Gillian and Adjuchas, he gets simply Arrancar. If he converts someone of a Vasto Lorde level, he'd almost instantly have an Espada.

So I wrote a bit in circles but I think you guys get the point. Anime watchers generally are better at picking up details...

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Originally Posted by kmkze04

Anime watchers generally are better at picking up details...

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Hahaha, lol. Yeah right.

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Originally Posted by kmkze04

Aizen didn't have to create all of them, some may have evolved on their own to be stronger. It seems that the Hougyoku just enables the free creation of an Arrancar rather than the Arrancar creating itself by removing its mask. So, if that is true, the Arrancar that Aizen creates are not necessarily stronger than any other Arrancar. Which would mean that the Privaron Espada were just simply beaten out. The only advantage to the Hougyoku version of Arrancar is that I assume Aizen can create them at will instead of waiting for a natural occurence, and also that he can pick Hollow with abilities or strength that he wants (which would be how he creates "stronger" Espada) and convert selectively AKA picking the cream of the crop.

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Anyway I agree with you. For the most part it seems that the majority of the arrancars were there long before Aizen come along. I think I remember some arrancar mentioning something about having to subjugate themselves to a shinigami, their natural enemy, or something like that. As for what the Hogyoku can and can't do, you have to remember that it isn't fully awakened yet and it won't be very powerful until it is.

I think I'll jump back into Bleach. Now that the fillers are over there has been some good discussion going on in these threads, and thats what I'm here for.

That and being pompous.

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Originally Posted by Alhuin

Has Aizen "experimented" on himself or Gin/Tousen in regards to hollow abilities? Or has it been said...

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Well, they don't have any mask pieces or anything. But then I suppose they could be like Ichigo and just summon masks.

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Originally Posted by DarthEnder

That and being pompous.Well, they don't have any mask pieces or anything. But then I suppose they could be like Ichigo and just summon masks.

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That still wouldn't explain Tousen's sudden level up, unless the mask now works as a cursed seal and improve their overall abilities.

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Originally Posted by DarthEnder

That and being pompous.

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Huh, Is that directed at me?

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Originally Posted by The Archangel

That still wouldn't explain Tousen's sudden level up, unless the mask now works as a cursed seal and improve their overall abilities.

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Pretty big assumption to say he wasn't always this strong.

Which is exactly what I was saying. I've had this discussion with Archangel a couple times in the manga threads and he refuses to believe that Tosen was simply hiding his true strength before, just like Aizen was. But for some reason that doesn't fly with him, something about even if he was hiding his power he still wouldn't let himself be defeated by Zaraki, someone who he obviously hates. Then I made the point that Aizen's plan wasn't completed yet i.e. they didn't have Hogyoku in hand so Tosen wouldn't reveal himself until Aizen gave him the go ahead.

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Originally Posted by Abdula

But for some reason that doesn't fly with him, something about even if he was hiding his power he still wouldn't let himself be defeated by Zaraki, someone who he obviously hates

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Let himself be defeated by Zaraki? I don't think he had much of a choice in the matter. It's pretty obvious he didn't actually lose because of lack of pure strength but because he was an idiot, who believed that everybody thinking differently from him is inherently weaker. And he didn't realise just how much of an abomination Zaraki is. I don't know if that fight taught him anything because he seemed quite a zealot, and zealots don't learn. But who knows. In any case that fight didn't show his absolute level of strength.

Lets not get into this again lol, we both have our separate opinions and only time will tell who's right and who's wrong

But yeah i agree, Aizen has probably used the Hōgyoku to experiment on himself or his 2 vassals

I highly doubt that. He has made far too many comments about the Hogyoku not being safe until its fully awakened and that his plans would have to be delayed till then. The reason he took Hogyoku was so that he could make himself into the ultimate being are whatever it is he is gonna call himself and that hasn't happened yet.

Anyway we'll just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Let himself be defeated by Zaraki? I don't think he had much of a choice in the matter. It's pretty obvious he didn't actually lose because of lack of pure strength but because he was an idiot, who believed that everybody thinking differently from him is inherently weaker. And he didn't realise just how much of an abomination Zaraki is. I don't know if that fight taught him anything because he seemed quite a zealot, and zealots don't learn.

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Yeah there is that but after having been defeated by Zaraki he reappeared moments later on top of the hill, no worse for wear.

Maybe he ate a Senzu bean, ahem...

If Tousen were to demonstrate his power, he would have done so on Grimmjow (cutting off his arm, unlike Ichigo's Bankai, which couldn't even scratch him without Getsuga Tenshō). Aranncar are Hollows with extremely powerful skin, but for Tousen to cut it off like a jello, it must be his demonstration of his powers.

But, I am more interested in Gin's powers. His Soul Slayer, Shinsō, is what I'm peculiar about. It has the ability to strech really far, so I wonder what his Bankai will be like?

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Originally Posted by Nadouku

If Tousen were to demonstrate his power, he would have done so on Grimmjow (cutting off his arm, unlike Ichigo's Bankai, which couldn't even scratch him without Getsuga Tenshō). Aranncar are Hollows with extremely powerful skin, but for Tousen to cut it off like a jello, it must be his demonstration of his powers.

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You should know by now that Ichigo can't cut shit for the simple reason he has no will to cut anything. Zaraki already told it him a long time ago, and I think Zangetsu has told it as well. He's a bloody snot nosed kid compared to all the mofos he's fighting against. If he was a real killer like a shinigami should be (you know, a death god), I have no doubt Grimmjow would quickly lose limbs to his bankai. Even now we have seen occasional, though regrettably rare, glimpses of what Ichigo could be had he the willpower.

I only say that because Ichigo is constantly building his resolve to fight. He has incredible potential, but just doesn't know how to use it, like how Hollow Ichigo said.

The only problem I have with the "Tousen was throwing the fight" theory is that, they were showing his thoughts when he was getting his ass kicked. He was doing internal monologues all during that fight. And none of it hinted at him holding back, it was all, "I can't believe my justice is getting its ass kicked here!"

Yeah but we didn't know he was one of the bad guys yet, so what do you expect.

You also assume that Zaraki has no chance against these Espada and I simply don't think that is the case.

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Originally Posted by Jessper

You also assume that Zaraki has no chance against these Espada and I simply don't think that is the case.

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Please, if Zaraki went against lets say Noitra he would completely have his ass handed to him.

There's just no way he would even stand a chance.

Maybe if he was released but in the mean time I think the captains could fight them in a reasonable manner. Grimjow wasn't released when Tousen took his arm.

I think the captains are underestimated because of the manner in which they fought Ichigo. Zaraki was so far from serious it isn't even funny, of course until the final blow where they were both worn out from playing around previously. Byakuya didn't acknowledge Ichigo as a real opponent until the end as well. These situations would not be the case vs an Espada.