Question about the bad guys

So Jiraya found out who Pain was before he died, and scribbled the answer on the frog's back. Did they reveal or hint yet at who Pain is?

Also, Itachi seems to hint that Madara is weak and could be beaten. However, Pain seemed invulnerable, yet he took his orders from Madara. How strong is Madara really? Even in the past, Madara was beaten by the First Hokage, and he never was able to take on the Leaf village by himself. He only made an attempt after controlling the Nine Tails.

I don't think Madara can possibly be stronger than Jiraya. And I think Pain is much stronger than Madara, but is somehow directly controlled by Madara.

Okay, at the very end Jiraya found out the secret of Pain. Pain later says he wouldn't have won if Jiraya knew about his secret before the fight.

This could mean Madara knows Pain's secret and is using this knowledge to control Pain. This might be the way Madara is indirectly controlling his Akatsuki group through Pain's strength.

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Originally Posted by CapsuleCorpJX

So Jiraya found out who Pain was before he died, and scribbled the answer on the frog's back. Did they reveal or hint yet at who Pain is?

Also, Itachi seems to hint that Madara is weak and could be beaten. However, Pain seemed invulnerable, yet he took his orders from Madara. How strong is Madara really? Even in the past, Madara was beaten by the First Hokage, and he never was able to take on the Leaf village by himself. He only made an attempt after controlling the Nine Tails.

I don't think Madara can possibly be stronger than Jiraya. And I think Pain is much stronger than Madara, but is somehow directly controlled by Madara.

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Pein isn't a person. Pein is a peer-to-peer mind, with 6 bodies. They all beam genjutsu into each other's heads, making it so all the bodies see what the others see. And outside of Nagato, each of his bodies is a strong Jounin with special abilities.

And Pein isn't "under" Madara's control. They share a goal. Madara wants to use the Bijuu to destroy Konoha, and probably other places. Pein wants to use the Bijuu to destroy ninja villages, so that they can known the suffering they bring. Granted, Madara founded and is in charge of Akatsuki, but Madara needs Pein for his goal, and vice versa. Pein's subservience isn't a matter of strength, but of practicality.

In fact, considering how strong Pein and Konan are, I would be willing to bet that Madara took them on as students, just like he took on Itachi. I mean, they were at the Genin/Chuunin level when Jiraiya left them.

I agree and Madara and Pein working together has nothing to do with strength I would think that by now you guys would understand that because someone it taking orders from someone else doesn't mean that either one is stronger than the other.

@ CapsuleCorpJX: All Itachi said was that the Madara of present is a failure and can't compare to his previous self, you can't take anything from that other than Madara is weaker now than he was before.

Secondly I don't think Jiraiya is stronger than Madara and there is absolutely no way you can prove that. Madara losing to the first means nothing at the moment because you can take nothing from that other than he lost and we don't know the circumstances and as Oro said no matter how strong you are you can't take on an organized force like a village by yourself.

Even though Itachi said that the present Madara is weak, its safe to assume that he is still stronger than Itachi is which is why Itachi said the he as yet only has the potential to surpass Madara. He didn't say that he surpassed him or that he was in any way near to surpassing him, he said that if he had Sasuke's eyes he would then have the potential to.

Also strength means nothing, once you achieve or surpass the level of the Sannin like most of the major characters have anyone can beat anyone that should be pretty obvious and the reasons should be rather simple to understand. Once you get to that level strength does not matter, every one at that point is incredibly strong and no one would easily be able to over power another. At that point the main tactic in a battle is exploiting your opponents weaknesses, so whoever could do that the best would win a battle.

The battle with Pein and Jiraiya is a perfect example of this, although Pein was made out to be far superior than Jiraiya and Jiraiya himself acknowledged this. At the end of the battle Jiraiya figured out Pein's secret and Pein himself said if Jiraiya were able to exploit it he would then have been able to defeat him.

It was said that rinnegan was the strongest doujutsu. But now with what we were shown to be the extent of Mangekyou Sharingan's powers (black flames, Tsukiyomi, more or less Kyuubi summon, eternal MS, and maybe even one more thing), I think these things were not accounted for when the initial statement was made.

IMO sharingan/eternal MS > rinnegan.

Really now so the Rinnegan was just introduced and you don't know anything about yet you are willing to say that the Sharingan is stronger than it. My point is very simple, the sharingan was introduced years ago and Kishi took his time developing it and to this point we still don't know what the Sharingan is really capable of.

That being said the Rinnegan was just introduced so it would make sense that Kishi would take some time to develop it and Kishi wouldn't have made sure to state that the Rinnegan was stronger than the Sharingan otherwise. I think you should give it some time before you could have any concrete opinions about them because although you stated the Sharingan's abilities, you don't know the Rinnegan's abilities so you have nothing to compare.

What do you mean they weren't accounted for Jiraiya already knew about Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and apparently the practice of killing your friends to attain MS and then killing your brother to attain eternal MS has been going on for generations. Thus it would have been well known by the elders of the village.

Whether the Rinnegan is in fact stronger than the Sharingan remains to be seen I just think its too early to start comparing them.

heres the online viewing for you guys


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/

I'll give you that Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu were most likely known when it was said rinnegan is more powerful than sharingan. Kakashi and Sasuke both experienced Tsukiyomi and Jiraiya witnessed Amaterasu first hand.

But I feel that eternal MS/ability to summon Kyuubi were unknown to everyone but Madara, Itachi, and now Sasuke. These were the secrets to the Uchiha Clan Itachi was referring to. If anything, the elder Uchihas new about these secrets but their knowledge of the secret was lost after the clan was killed. Even when the clan existed, killing other Uchihas for MS and killing brothers for eternal MS was long out practice and remained only as a secret. To reiterate, after the clan was killed, the secret was killed with the exception of Madara and Itachi.

Itachi tells the story of Madara, his brother, the origination of MS, and obtaining eternal MS to Sasuke because Sasuke did not know about it. For Kishi to introduce this new information in this way leads me to believe this was obviously unknown to Sasuke and has and still is unknown to everyone else.

Of course, even with our new knowledge of the extent of sharingan/MS, we do not know the extent of rinnegan's power because of how little exposure we've had to rinnegan. At this point, I find it hard for rinnegan to have a power that trumps immortality and the ability to control an entity with practically limitless chakra.

There is always the chance Kishi could come up with something more for rinnegan to blow sharingan out of the water and I'll believe it when I see it. It's just, at this point, the information we have been given leads me to my current speculation.

Jiraiya said in one of the chapters that he suspected Madara may have summoned Kyuubi to attack Konoha. So people outside the Uchiha did know about their ability with the Kyuubi.

I don't think we can pass judgement on which ability is stronger yet, though I admit the Rin'negan must be something totally wacky to be able to outdo the Sharingan.

I don't quite get how the Uchiha can have such a blood drenched history and be allowed to be the police force of Konoha. Going by what Itachi was saying it sounds as if there has been turmoil in the clan in its entire history, yet I find it hard to believe that such a murderous clan would be given the responsibility to ensure law and order by the Hokages.

About Madara being a shell of his former self; he would well be a shell but if he was so awesome to start out with he could still be more powerful than the rest of akatsuki.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CapsuleCorpJX

So Jiraya found out who Pain was before he died, and scribbled the answer on the frog's back. Did they reveal or hint yet at who Pain is?

Also, Itachi seems to hint that Madara is weak and could be beaten. However, Pain seemed invulnerable, yet he took his orders from Madara. How strong is Madara really? Even in the past, Madara was beaten by the First Hokage, and he never was able to take on the Leaf village by himself. He only made an attempt after controlling the Nine Tails.

I don't think Madara can possibly be stronger than Jiraya. And I think Pain is much stronger than Madara, but is somehow directly controlled by Madara.

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madara kept kyuubi as a pet, and if any one person can completely nullify the strength of the nine-tailes bijuu, he is pretty damn strong. if pain was so significantly stronger than madara, he wouldnt need a team of people to help him capture all the bijuu. also, not much is known about madara yet, but if he's the leader of the uchiha clan, he has to be something special. and in any defense, the first hokage was bitchin, so i dont doubt that he killed madara... i dunno, i just cant wait for the next chapter.