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I thought I was following fine, till the summary before the 10th dimension made me lost. Still, a pretty interesting idea.
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I thought I was following fine, till the summary before the 10th dimension made me lost. Still, a pretty interesting idea.
And then, after you get through that, try twisting your brain over this article.
an interesting little slide show. I've read some string theory before, but this was a nice, quick way of digesting it all...
The problem lies, at least currently, in the 'folding' steps and our inability to freely travel in the fourth dimension. We can fold the third dimension and go up, forward, left or whatever, but we can only go "up" in time (4th).
This physical limitation closes off the "split" possiblity of the 5th dimension, because humans can't go back in time or simultaneously develop other 'alternate reality' versions of themselves (as if we could 'restart' days or weeks or years and make different choices there, then pick which version we liked best).
Where this gets interesting is outside of physical reality, in thoughts and emotions, which have often been said to lie outside of the 4 dimensions. Surely we can 'imagine' these alternate reality selves, even alternate realities as presented in the 7th dimension (where the British used purple water sprites to put down the American Revolution of 5$31 and George Washington was an all-pro dogfighter, and it rains sexy Amazon women on the third elliptical planetary cycle around our 6 suns)
But the world I just created above, in my head, is something I can't quite share with others. I can't even access it myself outside of imagining it. We can communicate these ideas between us, and you might even 'experience' that crazy reality in your own mind in a brief foray of your own through the 7 dimensions, but you can't touch the Amazons.
Some have reached this conclusion and said, 'We should focus on developing ourselves to be the best in our current reality (first 3 dimensions) and in our actual lifeline (4th dimension); these alternate selves (5th) and alternate realities (parts of the 7th, the entire concept of the 8th and 9th) don't matter'
I'd agree with the first part, but the only way to truly do that is by considering the other dimensions, starting with the 5th. If you were born and told you were to be a coal miner, and you just stuck to that path and tried your best to make coal, you would pass by all your (potentially better) alternative selves. We understand this because our minds aren't fixed in the 4th dimension, and we can imagine our alternate selves and work to achieve the future self we want the most.
Keeping this in mind, we can (to an extent) achieve the 'split' in the 5th dimension, and actually do so every day with the choices we make. The catch is, we can't ever go back in the 4th dimension, so these choices appear only once and forever shut off the untaken lifeline. We can't "fold the 4th dimension through the 5th" and go back to ourselves as children. The 80 year old coal miner can't go back and tell his 13 year old self, "you don't need to be a coal miner! go be a doctor!" and numerous time-travel movies have dealt with the potential paradox that that would create...
We also, likewise, can't jump from now to an alternate now, as a jump in the 6th dimensional fold would automatically land me in a time where I'm a pro-rodeo clown. That path was closed off by various actions done in the past.
Again, some people would stop here and say, "Ok. Duh, we'll consider our possibilities in the 5th dimension as part of our cultivating ourselves in the 4. Big whoop.
But, thankfully, people (at least some) have a desire to impact more than just their own lives; they actually want to impact the reality around them. The coal miner might want to be a doctor to get money and a less hazardous life for himself, but he could also want to find the cure for a disease or help others. Taking that alternate path in the 5th dimension creates a different reality, where there's a little less coal, but more healthy people and maybe even one less disease.
This is the step left out in the little presentation. As defining the 7th dimension as 'all the possibilities of our universe', it captures the correct essence. Here we, in the 4th dimension, can actually shape which paths of the infinite 7 dimension paths become reality. The change is small (and always unnoticed) in most of our cases. What socks I wear don't seem to impact the world at large, but whether or not Marx decided to write his Manifesto surely has a huge impact, and that actuality was composed of meager events as uneventful as which socks he wore on what days and other infinite influences.
...okay, that's enough for now...
You could argue that you were also pre-destined to achieve the future self you wanted the most, thus this path still follows the fixed 4th dimension premonition.Quote:
Originally Posted by masamuneehs
pre-destiny? the entire point of there being 5 dimensions is that you CAN imagine and maybe get to some of those 'alternate selves'. And, I'm sorry, but a guy who is 5 feet high isn't ever going to be a pro-basketball center, even if that's what he wants the most. The physical limitations (time as well) will always limit the possibilities of which 'alternate self' you become, but that pre-destiny stuff doesn't fly in my book. although it's also hard to prove that things are or aren't pre-determined...
No, I believe the point of there being 5 dimensions is so you can alter the 4th dimension by bending that dimension.
In other words going back in time and preventing yourself from following your current path.
Without any external intervention, you'll end up at the ending point that you were pre-destined to end at.
Is God a 10th dimensional creature? hehe. Ok. lets not go there.
Cool stuff.
I thought this was about physics (and maths), but from what masamuneehs wrote, it's more of a philosophic point of view dimensions are discussed here, right?
cu
I didn't think that "destiny" was part of the discussion, but it does bring about a more philosophical view, like what David75 mentioned.
To me, the 5th dimension represented the other alternate time lines which originates from the line represented in the 4th dimension, "time". And as the clip mentioned, there are 2 ways of changing time, by either going back to the past in the 4th dimension to create the 5th dimensional new "you", or creating a fold via the 6th dimension, which is the short cut.
There are still lotsa of unanswered questions and other hypothesis,but I'm not going to think too much on this. I do, however, having a sudden urge to go see Back to the Future, where the alternate future was created when Marty brought Biff back to the past to hand the sports almanac to his younger self (to create the 6th dimension).
well, I do believe the theories and the show are actually about physics... but I still can't see how humans can (at least currently) bend the 6th dimensions, since we can only move freely in three dimensions and forward through Time. Like I said, the only things that humans can do that comes close to anything on the other dimensional plains are with the mind, hence it becomes a bit more psychological/philisophical... I suppose I was just trying to make this meaningful for us, who will probably never be able to move freely through the folds in the 6th dimension or going back in time...
I still don't see any arguments for pre-destination here. If anything, the existence of the fifth dimension indicates that, through choices/actions at earlier points in time, you can create your future self out of a larger set of possibilities. Not all of these possibilities exist in the present (particularly as you grow older and pass by the departure points), and those in the past are closed to you, you missed the opportunity. But, if I decided, right now, that I would dedicate my life to becoming an author, I could do that. If I chose to become a hikkikomori, I could do that too. I could saw my hand off and go down a Disabled self timeline. All of those possibilities exist right now, although I'll probably not do any of the three, but who knows? I do love to read and write, and I could live on my parents' support for a few years, I could lose a limb also...
I'm not saying that the infinite possibilities are available to all of us at every time, but that the very fact that we can choose what we do in the present shapes our futures, seems to me to indicate some freedom of choice.
Psyke does bring up a good point: You can't just create a new 'current you' out of the 5th dimension alternative selves. We're forced to go forward through time, and can't access what we'd be like, right now, in alternate realities, without anything as crazy as time travel or somehow bending the 6th dimension (which we can only do in our imaginations, where we picture alternatives of our current selves)
Remember, we're 4th dimensional 'flatlanders'. We can only travel forward in time. But, we can travel freely in the first three dimensions (and, in a more ethereal sense, even more freely with our minds). To me, we are 'flatlanders' in a giant labyrinth where we are forced to go forward but are constantly presented different 'paths' to go down, being unable to go back and try paths we've passed by. At the start, there are tons of options open to us, and they narrow as we near our end. By traveling in our three dimensions and imagining what each path might bring, we shape our lives through choosing these paths.
(several arguments against this are: You can't access all those possibilities, especially early in life when much of the choices are made by your parents/surroundings. You might make your own 'larger overall direction', choosing to always take a certain path as often as possible, blindly bypassing (even failing to recognize the existence of) other paths. Some paths might appear to overlap at certain points, or at least have similarities in the places they bring you to.
Still, I don't think any of those things 'pre-destine' people to always arrive at a certain end point, a fixed succession of 'future selves'. Just because you end up some place doesn't mean you HAD to end up there. You could have taken a left instead of a right. Plus, I'd argue that there are tons of external influences that interact on our lives every day, from family to friends to random people you talk to on internet forums. I don't think I was predestined to come to Gotwoot, register, actually post and get involved and click on Psyke's link and talk about it. My friends who got me into anime, the site creators, other members and Psyke are all 'external influences'.
I'm gonna be a badass saying that we can not move that freely in the 3 dimensions...
rather we are stuck between something like 2 intricated spheres... the ground and the atmosphere.
very few humans have been able to go a little further as of yet. ;)
For the rest? to me dimensions over time (5th and so on...) are only convenient for some theories trying to describe what happens in some experiments. They can be very beautiful math objects to those who understand a little more of them than us poor comoners...
From what I understand of it, these dimensions are only useful at very very low scales, and for very very high energy phenomenons.
For the rest of the world, they seem totally useless and invisible.
Another interresting point for the 3 dimensions. We all think we "see" them.
The problem is that the image we have is only "computed" by our brains out of 2 2D images. So we do not even actually see things in 3D...
The only 3D "vision" we can have is by actually touching things, eyes closed... and if we can touch those things... like a coin, keys, or anything.
Yet you could argue that the contact is only 2D, but at least the contact surface can folow the curves of the object in some cases.
Now what are the knowledge of dimensions useful for?
I guess describing the world. We see things, and try to describe and comprehend them.
When we do not fully understand, we build theories that work with almost all of the experiments described so far... and have to change them anytime an experiment contradicts these theories.
All in all, the theories get more elaborate and enables mankind to have some more control over their environement.
My problem with knowledge? I guess it's infinite... and I think we already are at our limits... because many problems require to much data and knowledge to be solved... unless someone comes with new object ideas to describe the world, and simplify most of the heavy maths theories tend to carry these days.
cu
just because very few have done it, doesn't meant its not physically possible for all humans. And actually, all humans can and do move freely through 3 dimensions. Every time you jump or go up a flight of stairs, you're moving forward in the z-axis.
My two pennies worth... this is definitely more of a philosophical discussion than one about physics. Fine, the whole how you would bend dimension x through x+1 may have relvance to physics, but this discussion is more about how you perceive your existance to be.
Dead tired right now, so will write my opinion fully later on.
I think Psyke has the right idea. We cannot physically manipulate the 5th dimension without doing one of the things he mentioned.
Think of it this way, masa....you say if you decided right now to dedicate your life to being an author, you could.
Well, I say that if you spontaneously decided to become an author right now, then you were pre-destined to spontaneously decide to become an author right now, and that your 4th dimension always had this path inscribed.
And thus we once again reach the ultimate debate of destiny vs freewill. Is anything we do really our choice, or were we destined to make that choice the moment we were born. I think its safe to say we wont find an answer to that on this thread.Quote:
Think of it this way, masa....you say if you decided right now to dedicate your life to being an author, you could.
Well, I say that if you spontaneously decided to become an author right now, then you were pre-destined to spontaneously decide to become an author right now, and that your 4th dimension always had this path inscribed.
But thats not the point of string theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
The point is that the 4th dimension is something that can be measured by someone who can see things in the 4th dimension. Just like how someone living in the 2nd dimension can only see a 2 dimensional cross-section of a 3 dimension object, we as beings in the 3rd dimension can only see the 3 dimensional cross-section of our 4 dimensional selves.
You can't just say that the 4th dimension is variable (due to free will) and also say that there are 10 dimensions.
Hum, what I wrote is that our ability to move freely in 3D was really limited, basically to our planet if it's easier to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Compared to the size of our galaxy, or even our solor system, you could agree our freedom of movement is quite limited ;)
They bring up good points. Does time really exist? I'm starting to think no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honoko