Sharingan inconsistancy

[injun]

Well I went through some old eps and found an inconsistancy in what exactly teh sharingan does. In the Naruto/Sasuke fight the three dot sharingan does allow the user to in effect see the future. Mainly in the for of predicting where an attack will land. However, when the sharingan ability was first discussed in the Kakashi/Zazuba battle it was described merely as a copying/hypnotic technique. In essence, there are two versions of sharingan running around. Anybody have any ideas about this?

[Assertn]

its always been known that the sharingan enhances the user's ability to see movements
ever since sasuke was using it on haku

i believe it was also explained that the reason for it being a copying technique, is because they can see the enemy's hand movements as its being made (and probably remember them).

[injun]

The thing is that Zazuba makes a big deal about how Kakashi suggested hand symbols. there wouldn't be a need for suggestions or mind tricks if kakashi could see the moves in advance...

[Assertn]

kakashi doesnt suggest the hand seals, he suggests how zabuza should attack, or in other words, suggested him to perform a ninjutsu for kakashi to copy

[jing]

Yeah
Kakashi saw what jutsu he was doing, and he beat him to using the jutsu. like the water dragon. zabuza started the jutsu first, but kakashi saw through it and did his own at a faster speed. kakashi the copy ninja with over 1000 jutsus, probably knew the jutsu already.

[injun]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
kakashi doesnt suggest the hand seals, he suggests how zabuza should attack, or in other words, suggested him to perform a ninjutsu for kakashi to copy

alright, i think you contradicted yourself, either that or you are agreeing with me. meaning that he can not predict the next hand signal but can direct his opponent to attack a certain way, giving the illusion of foresight.

[Elessar]

I think it is like a time-delay.

First of all, Kakashi can foresee and predict certain movements. With this, at one point he can see a seal that is about to be made. Now remember, sharingan has strong genjutsu abilities. So he now casts off an unknown genjutsu, to delay his opponent in realizing he made the seal. This delay gives Kakashi time to do it himself, giving the illusion that he is doing it simultaniously. That stage puts a lof of stress on the opponent, as he starts to realized he is being copied.
Then his genjutsu implants thoughts into the opponent giving more mental stress, he will get uncertain. The delay will allow Kakashi to make all seals in time and activate the jutsu simultaniously with his opponent, who now is really frightened. That is what occured with the water dragons. The opponents mind gets more and more unstable as the pressure increases, allowing Kakashi's shraingan genjutsu to take further advantage.
Now, upon the next jutsu, for example the water blast, Kakashi will start as before, but slowly increasing the time-delay. In reality, the opponent is doing all the seals, allowing Kakashi to copy them. The increasing time delay puts the stress on a new level, as now the opponent think Kakashi is doing the seals faster then himself and he is actually the one mimicking it. As his mind is unaware that he finished the preparations, he fails to activate the jutsu, giving Kakashi the chance to release the jutsu before his opponent.
That is what happened with the great water blast.

That kind of analysis takes a lot of flair out of the sharingan, but that is how I think the trick works. It's a mind fooling game.

The limiting factor therefor is not the development stage, but the users experience and ability to utilize it - although certain tricks may require a full-featured and evolved three-dot sharingan. But by merely possessing it, you can't automatically use it. Naruto possessed the nine-tails for a long time, without knowing how to use, let alone control it. Sasuke needs practice to do the same sharingan tricks Kakashi does, but he will learn them faster than Kakashi due to his Uchiha blood.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: injun


Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
kakashi doesnt suggest the hand seals, he suggests how zabuza should attack, or in other words, suggested him to perform a ninjutsu for kakashi to copy

alright, i think you contradicted yourself, either that or you are agreeing with me. meaning that he can not predict the next hand signal but can direct his opponent to attack a certain way, giving the illusion of foresight.

no....suggesting what hand seals to perform and suggesting how to act and fight are different.
for example, kakashi mightve tricked zabuza into pulling off a move like the water dragon, without kakashi knowing the seals for the water dragon

because think about it, if kakashi copied 1000 jutsus, then that means he never knew how to perform them until after he tricks somebody to use the jutsu. If he always suggested what seals to make, then that would mean that he already knew all the jutsus he knows now before he ever encountered them.

[shinichi69]

hmm... but i thought the answer to this has been revealed? kakashi has attained a higher level in usin his sharingan while sasuke can only use it to detect high speed and predict movement... what kakashi did when he was battling zabuza was that he put zabuza under hypnosis... and gives him the impression that kakashi is copying his move simultaneously... but in actual fact... kakashi is copying at a speed slower than zabuza... but the sharingan fools the victim into thinking he was actually being copied at the same time... and kakashi can predict what his opponent wanted to say to fully fool zabuza... that's how kakashi's sharingan works while battling zabuza... but i believe that itachi's sharingan is much stronger and we probably havent seen the best of his sharingan yet...

[RasenDori]

i didnt bother reading all the post, so i apologize if any of this may be a rehash of what others said.
here is my theory: the two dot sharingan allows the user to see things more clearly. so in cases of clones the user can tell which is real because of their clear site. this also works for fast moving objects are people. a normal person would not have been able to see hakus speed, but a two dot sharingan user clear site should have no trouble with it. the three dot sharingan can see the opponents next movements. this was clearly shown in the naruto vs. sasuke fight, and explains how kakashi could "predict" zabuzas seals. i also beleve that it can cast a genjutsu that can suggest what the opponents should use next. zabuza spoke of hypnotism (sp?) that kakashi used against him, and how he was safe if he didnt look kakashi in the eye. i also believe that sharingan means someting along the lines of mirror wheel eye (correct me if i am wrong). the wheel could suggest a spiral like hypnotic movement of the dots in the eye. the final sharingan level, magekyou. can dispell and counter genjutsu, as well as create a very realist genjutsu that can even cause death. it may also be the cause of the black flame itachi used. as far as coping goes, i believe the first level is only good for copying taijutsu because it doesnt allow the reaction time (as lee pointed out) that is needed to copy seals.

EDIT: ok i read the other post, and i would like to say that i disagree that the genjutsu kakashi cast makes it seem as if he is moving faster when hes moving slower. i believe the sharingan genjutsu merely suggest that the opponent should use a jutsu at that moment. since a sharingan user can see the next movement of the opponent (as displayed in the naruto/sasuke fight) kakashi performs the movements as he sees them instead of timing it with the opponent. therefore, the attack comes out before the opponents'.

[Hotsuma]

Level 1 : Better than the naked eye, able to see more things clearly. Especially movement. Not able to copy jutsus yet, though. (Sasuke VS Haku)

Level 2 : Takes the first Sharingan ability, and improves it, plus added ability of copying jutsus. Copying jutsus is not yet fluent, and time/practice (less than the normal ninja though) is required in order to perform learned jutsu perfectly. (Sasuke learning Lee's taijutsu through time, and not just instantly)

Level 3 : Improves the ability to see through jutsus/movement even farther than Sharingan 2, and even gives insight into what is *coming* and not just what's going on at the moment. (Sasuke VS Naruto) Copying jutsus is a lot easier with this, and if experienced enough, able to perform learned jutsu right on the spot of when it is learned. PLUS, it has the ability to hypnotize somebody, but only through suggestion.(1st Zabuza fight)

Mangekyou Sharingan : Ultimate Sharingan, able to do everything mentioned above on a higher/highest level, and genjutsu isn't limited to just messing with your head, but your spirit as well. (Tsukiyomi) Only Itachi and Sasuke are able to aquire it... but there's rumors of a third user?

Basically, Each Sharingan comma improves every aspect of a previous form, while adding an extra ability or two.

[injun]

alright, lets say there is a hypnotic factor with the genjetsu, why waste chakra on it. For intance let say kakashi and gai are playing rock, paper, scissors. Kakashi would use the sharingan and predict that gia would throw rock. Now Kakashi can do two things, he can either throw rock as well and piss gai off, or throw paper and beat guy. Whats being suggested with the hypnosis is that kakashi will predict rock, hynotize gai into throwing rock, and then Kakashi would do his thing. It seems like the hypnosis step is a waste of chakra if you can predict the attack.

and if Naruto elites are all about chakra conservation, Kakashi wouldn't waste his time hypnotizing gia if he could already predict the attack... hence why i still believe there is an inconsitancy in regard to kakashi's level 3 and sasuke's level 3.

[RasenDori]

an excellent point, but the arguement falls because of the example you use. in rock paper scissors there only three choices a player can use. in a battle, however, there are many possibilities. kakashi uses the genjutsu to sugguest that the opponent uses something copyable, like a jutsu to ensure that he can copy it.

[injun]

regardless of the hand symbol kakashi should be able to copy the hand gesture since he sees it a coupla seconds in advance. I think my analogy still stands.

[Death BOO Z]

I think that Kakashi suggested Zabuza to do a jutsu that Kakashi already knew about, so that he (Kakashi) could start the jutsu before and won't have to worry about Zabuza escaping, since Zabuza will think that his jutsu will activate first...

honestly, i don't think Kakashi copied anything in this fight, he just made it seem so to get Zabuza to think he has the advange. Yes, Kakashi is that much of a badass...

Edit: i've got time (amazing what reading I's make you do, it's so boring...) so i'll explain a bit more of my Sharingan theory.

A. predictions: the sharingan can't see into the future, but rather, it showes what's probable to happen based on previous experience and muscle movements.
example: when Sasuke saw Naruto, his sharingan recorded Naruto's moving pattern, and combined with the normal human movement pattren, he could see which muscles are moving and at which angle, and his 'saw' what's the next movement Naruto's gonna do. it also works with seals, but less, since finger\hand movements are smaller and are similar for some of the seals.

think of the Ricarddo Martinez vs Ippo fight in Hajime no ippo manga, ricardo could throw super cool jabs becuase he covered his shoulder movements, and therefore, limited ippo's ability to predict punches.

it also explains why Sasuke couldn't predict naruto's 'chackra hands', he has no idea how do those things work and to which limit they can get, so his sharingan can't make him see the next thing to happen...

and to the rock-paper-scissors thing, it's really not that much of a problem to predict it, it even has a mentionning in Hunter X Hunter (GI ova, i think, maybe GI fianl), and besides, Gai probably has large rock-paper-scissors movement, so it's easier to see what's he's about to do...


well, that's all for now, i'm going back to read I's, the main charecter is like Shinji, but twenty times lamer. it's scary.

[injun]

@DBZ: that'll do pig, that'll do.

[kinD4rkness]

I think they did the same thing just used different ways. The only real concern I have with the sharingan is that what the hell happened to the mange sharingan in the anime? they decided not to use the badass version of it from the manga?

[jing]

Originally posted by: kinD4rkness
I think they did the same thing just used different ways. The only real concern I have with the sharingan is that what the hell happened to the mange sharingan in the anime? they decided not to use the badass version of it from the manga?

The first time they showed the mange sharingan was during the flash back of Naruto vs Sasuke. The anime hasn't gotten that far so obviously they wouldn't show it yet.

[Boogster]

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Level 1 : Better than the naked eye, able to see more things clearly. Especially movement. Not able to copy jutsus yet, though. (Sasuke VS Haku)

Level 2 : Takes the first Sharingan ability, and improves it, plus added ability of copying jutsus. Copying jutsus is not yet fluent, and time/practice (less than the normal ninja though) is required in order to perform learned jutsu perfectly. (Sasuke learning Lee's taijutsu through time, and not just instantly)

Level 3 : Improves the ability to see through jutsus/movement even farther than Sharingan 2, and even gives insight into what is *coming* and not just what's going on at the moment. (Sasuke VS Naruto) Copying jutsus is a lot easier with this, and if experienced enough, able to perform learned jutsu right on the spot of when it is learned. PLUS, it has the ability to hypnotize somebody, but only through suggestion.(1st Zabuza fight)

Mangekyou Sharingan : Ultimate Sharingan, able to do everything mentioned above on a higher/highest level, and genjutsu isn't limited to just messing with your head, but your spirit as well. (Tsukiyomi) Only Itachi and Sasuke are able to aquire it... but there's rumors of a third user?

Basically, Each Sharingan comma improves every aspect of a previous form, while adding an extra ability or two.


Good summary.

[Destroyor]

I always thought that each dot on the Sharingan represent a different mastery of jutsu.
1 dot for Ninjutsu, 1 dot for Genjutsu, 1 dot for Taijutsu.

So in effect it doesn't really matter how many dots you have in your Sharingan but rather which "dot" do you have???

Right after Sasuke got his Sharingan (Haku fight) he only have 2 dot on the left eye and 1 dot for the right, so I'm guessing he have a ninjutsu dot in both eye and the last dot is genjutsu.

When Kakashi suggest Zabuza to use certain hand seals he's using the genjutsu part of the sharingan. I'm also guessing since Kakashi's sharingan is an implant and he doesn't have the bloodline for it some part of the sharingan is not working/not working as effectively thus Kakashi can not forsee body movement (Taijutsu dot).

But when you really think about it, the "Ultimate Sharingan" Mangekyou Sharingan is just a mastery of illusion tech, so Sasuke doesn't really have what it takes to get it. Sasuke is not that good at genjutsu .... (Also another crap theory: You kill your best friend and see though that life is really an illusion, thus mastering illusion tech???)

Here's my theory anyway ....

Any sharingan: Very cruel movement reading/copying, able to see chakra (inside and outside of a body)

Ninjutsu dot: subconsciously understanding the basic of any ninjutsu, reading and copying of ninjutsu, better chakra control, can perform ninjutsu better,etc

Genjutsu dot: Immune to almost all genjutsu, genjutsu counter (own genjutsu become more powerful?), hynotize ability, read/copy genjutsu.

Taijutsu: project enemy possible bodymovement as a shadow(?)/after image(?) and read body movement base on numerous other small and obscure details (eg: shoulder movement, blood flow map(?), chakra lv????? etc etc), read/copy body movement

[Assertn]

no no no......
when sasuke had 2 pupils in each sharingan, he can still see taijutsu, ninjutsu, and genjutsu , so the 1 dot per jutsu type cant be right.