Gaara vs a jounin

[Berserk Ayato]

Ight, Sorry that this topics sucks ass, but i might as well ask.

Do you guys think Gaara would be able to beat any jounin, thi all started when i said that Gaara would be able to Defeat Zabuza if the fight didnt take palce near water. Which then ignited into a Gaara is just a gennin he's equal to the others, and cant even conted with a genin. A may just be a Gaara fan boy, but i think Gaara as of this moment(after the kimi fight) can kick some ass if he wanted too..

God damn im a hypocrite i have vs threads, sorry guy.

[Souryusen]

I'm sure he could beat A jounin. The title jounin encompases many people of varying skill. I imagine Gaara could put a hurt on several jounin.. just not one of, say, Kakashi's level.

[LaZie]

a Jounin>Gaara

[jing]

It depends which jounin. You can't be general, in the world of Naruto.

[Kenshiro]

ok, this is how it goes (or how i think it goes, anyway).

There are three times when you have to consider his strenght.

1. chunun selection exam - non transformed
2. when fighting sasgay - transformed
3. Vs Kimi

At point 1 he is no more powerful than a strong genin/ weak chunin. because....
a) Sasuke beats him up (and he is only a genin)
b) he really wanted to fight neji (and he only fights strong people and neji is a genin)
c) it was a close fight between him and Rock (and rock is a genin)

At point 2, he is at least as strong as a jounin, and could probably take on a few. because....
a) remeber that it is not actually Gaara, but in fact a demon that is unleashed.
b) The Sound and Sand villages went to all of the trouble of making him go to the exam as part of the master plan to destroy konoha, and there would be no point if he was a pussy.
c) it is a very even fight between Shukaku and Gamabunta
d) All the top level summons (yes i know Shukaku isnt a summon, im talking about Gama) are about as strong as a Sannin (Manda doesnt take shit from Oro; Enma smacked about the 1st and 2nd hokages for a bit
e) It wasnt Naruto that beat Shukaku, it was Gama that fought him, Naruto only woke him up, and he need ed to use Kyubi to get out of the sand.

At point 3 he is probably as stong as a mid level Chunin. because...
a) he has visibly improved since we saw him last.
b) he is not as strong as Kimi (kimi broke through all of his defences)
c) there is not much to base this argument on.


EDIT to post below

Sorry, in point 2. I meant when he is fully transformed and fighting Naruto, not Sasgay

[PossiblE]

a) remeber that it is not actually Gaara, but in fact a demon that is unleashed.
The demon (Shukaku) isn't unleashed until Gaara falls asleep.

[Casualty]

He's not completely unleashed until that point, true. But Gaara sort of releases him to degrees.

[mage]

i believe gaara has already killed several jounins. he said his dad sent people after him trying to assassinate him, im sure atleast some of them were jounins. why would he send some weak ass people after him?

[Eurasian]

gaara is strong but don't know if he's as a strong as a jounin. gai did break his attack (trying to protect lee) w/o any problem.


Originally posted by: Kenshiro
c) it was a close fight between him and Rock (and rock is a genin)
i have to disagree. gaara obviously owned Lee. Lee broke out w/ those incredibly strong moves w/ gates opened and all it did was break gaara's defense. (don't get me wrong, lee was great. surpassing the sand's speed and the opening of the gates) what gaara did to lee isn't the result of a close fight. gaara was all healthy (physically, but he's just cuckoo in the head) and lee was on the floor.

[kAi]

b) he is not as strong as Kimi (kimi broke through all of his defences)
kimimaro's thickest bone didnt get past the Saikou Zettai Bougyo Shukaku No Tate (Supreme Absolute Defense, Shield of Shukaku)...it shattered kimimaros bone..
yeah im just thinking gaara has never been scratched before...but 3 genins could get past his defenses and punch him around a bit..

[Assertn]

stuff like this is too hard to debate.......cause one of the lamest details ever mentioned in the naruto series relates to this.......
and that is when gaara said that for the past 6 years, the kazekage has sent assassins to try to kill him

while its deep and all.....this leads me to believe that gaara > any sand jounin
however from what we saw of gai stopping gaara's sand......he could easily take gaara out in the blink of an eye in his normal form. Does this mean that a konoha jounin > all sand jounins?

then again, we know gaara has transformed into shukaku before......simply because temari and kankuro and well, pretty much all the sand village knows that he can. this would lead me to believe that maybe some sand jounins ARE capable of taking out gaara, thus forcing gaara to transform......in which case they get pwned

now considering the amount of trouble that 3 headed snake summoned caused for all the nins in konoha, i'd say that only a sannin, hokage, or naruto actually had any chance of beating fully transformed gaara

simply because nobody else could summon a creature or call upon a demon big enough to aid in the fight
i guess if this is the case, then i take back the part about the detail being lame. but ONLY if this is the case

[viciousHyuuga]

garra >> god , auto protection his like an imbalanced ninja walking around with a hack on. but i think when he gets older an develops more skill .. he will be sand-kage an kill us all. KILL US ALL!!!!
enough said.

[Terracosmo]

If he can, then Naruto can beat jounins too.

I rest my case.

[PSJ]

gaara cannot beat jounins.

[Kenshiro]

the point is that Gaara cant beat a jounin, and neither can Naruto (obviously), but both Gama and Skukaku could.

Its the fact that they have the ability to summon these things that makes then powerful.

Naruto certainly cant control Gama, and so if he tried to take on Kurenai for example, Gama wouldnt fight and NAruto would get killed.

I doubt that Gaara has very good control over Shukaku, because when he was released, all he did was shout "im finally free" or whatever and freak out.

Also, in my above post, i forgot to mention what Assertn said. After Rock fights Gaara, Gai smacks the sand away like it is nothing.

Also, when Gaara goes to find Sasuke when they are training on the mountain top, Kakashi really doesnt seem very worried about Gaara and talks to him like he is a stupid child. If Gaara was even remotely as strong as a jounin then Kakashi would have been at least a bit worried.

[kAi]

kakashi thought sasuke was safe against gaara...
so gaara had no effect on kakashi if he is thinking this...
i think gaara can just kill stupid incompotent jounin...
or only in his transformed state can he beat some...

if i wanted someone assassinated i would hire someone if they couldnt do it...hire someone better...but does this make his father stupid?...or the sand jounin weak?...but its said that the sand focused more on the individuals than a whole group of them...and as i think baki is no push over
so its to hard to say.

[SK]

gaara can probably take out a chuunin, but a jounin, i doubt it...people need to remember when genins fight it looks so spectacular but that is just a genin level, jounin is a totally different level of skill.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
If he can, then Naruto can beat jounins too.

I rest my case.

actually naruto CAN beat jounins too
he just has to do it the same way he beat fully transformed gaara.......
and that is to convince gamabunta to fight them

[jing]

I wouldn't say Gaara cannot kill any Jounins. Remember Genma and Raido got their asses kicked by Sound Cursed 4s, Gaara and his gang raped them (except for Kimimaro, cuz he is the ownzors). This shows that Gaara can kill a jounnin, depending on who it is. (of course he cannot beat someone at the level of kakashi)

[KitKat]

Originally posted by: kAi
yeah im just thinking gaara has never been scratched before...but 3 genins could get past his defenses and punch him around a bit..

Yeah, this puzzled me too. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Gaara has only had to fight people from his own village before. He would have grown up knowing these people and probably knowing some of the ways they fight. The Leaf style attacks would be completely new to him, and perhaps he doesn't think on his feet well enough to come up with new strategies to counter that. If we follow this train of thought, then we can assume that Gaara MIGHT be able to go against a Sand jounin, but would be at an extreme disadvantage against jounins from any other village.

[jing]

those aren't ordinary 3 gennins, i hope you all know that.
1 is an uchiha member, trained by kakashi, and has incredible speed(everyone at the stadium were going insane by just looking at it)
1 is Rock Lee, trained by Gai sensei, we've alll seen his weights, he only knows taijutsu, can open alot of gates.
1 is Naruto, has demon fox chakra within him. by the way the sand shield wasn't in his way during that fight.

kitkat, i thought you didn't read the manga!! cover ur eyes!!

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: jing
I wouldn't say Gaara cannot kill any Jounins. Remember Genma and Raido got their asses kicked by Sound Cursed 4s, Gaara and his gang raped them (except for Kimimaro, cuz he is the ownzors). This shows that Gaara can kill a jounnin, depending on who it is. (of course he cannot beat someone at the level of kakashi)

no no no.....
its important that you realize that the ONLY reason genma and raido lost to those 4 was because they had just got back from a big mission and weren't in any condition to get involved in any big fights. After they recovered in the hospital, they were confident that they could beat those 4 EASILY if they were to go track them down.

2 special jounin > 4 lv2 cursed seal sound nins

[jing]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure


Originally posted by: jing
I wouldn't say Gaara cannot kill any Jounins. Remember Genma and Raido got their asses kicked by Sound Cursed 4s, Gaara and his gang raped them (except for Kimimaro, cuz he is the ownzors). This shows that Gaara can kill a jounnin, depending on who it is. (of course he cannot beat someone at the level of kakashi)

no no no.....
its important that you realize that the ONLY reason genma and raido lost to those 4 was because they had just got back from a big mission and weren't in any condition to get involved in any big fights. After they recovered in the hospital, they were confident that they could beat those 4 EASILY if they were to go track them down.

2 special jounin > 4 lv2 cursed seal sound nins

oh yeah, i guess i forgot about the hospital scene lol.

*although im pretty sure Gaara can kill that junnin in that Naruto waterfall village special i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Eurasian]

yah seriously. how did they become jounins in the first place??

[.*Gaara*.[NIN]]

ummmm Gaara is a demon, like naruto... it took the lord hokage to defeat naruto... ahem, that might be a hint

[GhostKaGe]

Originally posted by: .*Gaara*.[NIN]
ummmm Gaara is a demon, like naruto... it took the lord hokage to defeat naruto... ahem, that might be a hint

WTF??????? Do you watch Naruto cause i ain't got a clue what ya talking about
it took the lord hokage to defeat naruto WTF???????

[G-Pong]

Originally posted by: .*Gaara*.[NIN]
ummmm Gaara is a demon, like naruto... it took the lord hokage to defeat naruto... ahem, that might be a hint

http://www.lindbackdistributing.com/pin_95.jpg
Hooray for .*Gaara*.[NIN]!!

[mage]

i believe he means the fourth had to sacrifice his life in order to seal kyubi. i think thats pretty obvious no need to make fun of him.

[Eurasian]

i think there's still a gap between shukaku (when u say "demon" i assume shukaku who i thought was a ghost) and the kyubi. so even if these 2 kids have another entity inside them doesn't make them the same.

[Raven]

hahahhaahh @ G-Pong.

Kyubi would annihilate that piece of crap badger. No question.

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: mage
i believe he means the fourth had to sacrifice his life in order to seal kyubi. i think thats pretty obvious no need to make fun of him.

did you read his post? he thinks naruto and gaara are demons....


i nominate both these guys for gotwoot n00b survivor(or whatever the name of the coming one is)

[Assertn]

haha.....unfortunately if we add any more noobs to the contest, then the votes would be too distributed i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif
although personally i'd like to add the one who thought naruto had an advanced bloodline

[Eurasian]

i feel kinda sorry for the noobs now.

[PSJ]

yea for some of them but not all. a bunch of them needs to be put in place.

[Konohamaru]

DIdn't Gaara beat Kimi by drowning him in the sand? Kimi is indeed a strong fighter but he must be jounin or higer rank level and Gaara beat him without tranforming. All he did was summon his lil demon friend to block a attack.

[Lucian5000]

He injured him beyond repair with the drowning, but he shot out those huge bones and used one to appear behind them. But then he dies. (ch 217)

The drowning itself didn't kill him, but the injuries caused by it killed him.

[PSJ]

it wasnt the injuries, he deflected the attack but died by his blood dicease. and kimimaro was strong but no where near jounin, he was at most chuunin level.

[Lucian5000]

Tomato Tom-ah-to.

[Stoopider]

If sasuke and Rock Lee could run+jump past Gaara's defenses and punch Gaara,

I'm sure the Jounin team can run+jump past Gaara's defences and tickle Gaara to death with a kunai.

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Lucian5000
Tomato Tom-ah-to.
what the hell do you mean with that?
and the on going nominating continues. i nominate this person.

[Lucian5000]

Tomato, Tom-ah-to. Different pronounciations, same thing. The point I'm trying to make, is that the drowning didn't kill him. Whether the illness, or injuries caused by the drowning doesn't matter.

[PSJ]

yes it does since if it was the injuries cause by the drowning gaara still would sem much stronger than if it was the illness.

[viciousHyuuga]

for the genin exam arc, garra's mind was clouded over his childhood which i think was effecting how he fights stratigicly. so now i think his a much harder opponent to beat that his good an all. jounin lvl not in attack but defence i think he is just as good.

-----
garra vs kimmaro
who else you think could escape that. kim's bloodline unbreakable bones, sharpest spear + the seal he had. (If it did help him), thats what got him out. but who else could do such a thing.

but id like to see the rasengan vs his sand defence.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Lucian5000
Tomato, Tom-ah-to. Different pronounciations, same thing. The point I'm trying to make, is that the drowning didn't kill him. Whether the illness, or injuries caused by the drowning doesn't matter.

lol there is no "same difference" about it
kimimaro had NO injuries from gaara, and proof that the quicksand wasnt enough to beat him was that he could easily travel through the bones that he shoots up from underground.

[Coolman]

Any Jounin owns ANY of this years or the year befores Gennins (that includes Shika).

If Gaara can beat a Jounin, then of course Naruto and Sasuke can, which is a flat out lie. The only way this will happen, is if a Jounin becomes confident, unaware, or is already weakened. You saw the problems they had fighting the sound 3, who were already weakened, and took 4 on two to beat 2 tired Jounins.

BTW, I am back to these forums, after travelling to others, many of who think Gaara would own Kakashi in a heart beat, I am back for intelligent discussion.

[PSJ]

okay, you're back... who are you? but you're completly right.

[jing]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
okay, you're back... who are you? but you're completly right.

he's not completly right, i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif lets not forget about the special village of the waterfall special. The water jounnin dude got powned.

[Y]

Gaara, Naruto, Sasuke, etc... could easily kill a random janky Jounin, since Jounins are not a separate class of power from Genins.

[Coolman]

Y, thats totally wrong. To become a Jounin, you need a certain level of leadership, itelligence, strenght, etc. Most if not all should be able to own Gaara.

Also, all specails are good to watch, thats it. Unless made by the author, it means nothing.

[viciousHyuuga]

you speak of garra like his just a normal genin,

[PSJ]

im sorry jing but coolman was right again, the specials mean nothing dont count that halfdead punkass trying to act cool waterfall jounin.

[Y]

Most if not all should be able to own Gaara.

Sure, buddy. Just pull it out of your ass.

Kidoumaru stated that Neji (who's exceptional, but not nearly as powerful as Gaara) was the strongest opponent he'd ever faced. Who had the Sound Four just got done fighting with? Two fucking Jounins. Whoa, surprise, random Jounins are overhyped.

[PSJ]

no they were to compltetly drained jounins versus 4 guys that could barely defeat them. so you are wrong noob. no genin can defeat a jounin.

[Y]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
no they were to compltetly drained jounins versus 4 guys that could barely defeat them. so you are wrong noob. no genin can defeat a jounin.

And by 'completely drained' you mean 'I have no idea how weakened they were'. And guess what? It really doesn't change a thing that they had a hard time with the Jounin. Kidoumaru unequivocally stated that Neji was the strongest person he'd ever faced. He has faced Jounins. Ergo, Neji is stronger than at least some Jounins. Hell, if I remember, one of the Jounin they beat up was the judge from the exam - he probably sucked. But he was a Jounin, and Kido did say that Neji was stronger than him. Fact. Jesus.

Notice, again, that promotions are not done on power - the weakest Genin is the one promoted to Chuunin.

EDIT:

The bias in favor of Jounins here is astonishing. I'm surprised that "Gaara channeling Shukaku, Curse Seal Sasuke, and Kyuubi Naruto versus that guy with the cough" hasn't been done.

[jing]

Just wondering, does Naruto Anime need to confirm with kishimoto when they do specials??

[Eurasian]

on an earlier discussion, ppl were saying that gaara's sand drowned kimimaro??? i don't get it. i'm pretty sure it was the illness cuz...well...that's what gaara said.

[Deblas]

yea he could defeat a jounin, the only weakness ive seen so far are speed and the chidori against garaas sand so if a jounin master that garaa wont have a chance..... unless garaa turns to that racoon demon then the jounin woll be in trouble but what happens if the jounin soes a powerful summon could he defeat garaa......i/expressions/rolleye.gif

[Assertn]

Y the alien: the requirements for being a chuunin is COMPLETELY different than the requirements for being a jounin. dont even compare the two

i agree with the paper, rock, scissors theory, which explains why neji may be stronger against kidoumaru than others before him, but also keep in mind......that it isnt the purpose of the sound 4 to do alot of fighting in general. Their specialty is barriers and seals, not combat. Also dont forget, that the sound village is a new village. Im pretty sure the battle against konoha was the first major battle that actually took place involving the sound nins.

And simply put, a non-fatigued genma and raido couldve wiped them out, no question

[Y]

Y the alien: the requirements for being a chuunin is COMPLETELY different than the requirements for being a jounin. dont even compare the two



And simply put, a non-fatigued genma and raido couldve wiped them out, no question

They would have done better against the Jounins if they had used your "Present My Unsupported Opinion As Fact No Jutsu!"

[Assertn]

oh im sorry, i didnt realize i needed to repeat the same fact i pointed out 3 times already

try reading the chapter that shows genma and raido in the hospital. I believe that should clear the air a little for ya

since you're the one with such outrageous opinions regarding jounins, why dont YOU follow your own advice?

[DeluxSkillz]

Gaara ownz several weak jounins but only with the power of shukaku period

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien


Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
no they were to compltetly drained jounins versus 4 guys that could barely defeat them. so you are wrong noob. no genin can defeat a jounin.

And by 'completely drained' you mean 'I have no idea how weakened they were'. And guess what? It really doesn't change a thing that they had a hard time with the Jounin. Kidoumaru unequivocally stated that Neji was the strongest person he'd ever faced. He has faced Jounins. Ergo, Neji is stronger than at least some Jounins. Hell, if I remember, one of the Jounin they beat up was the judge from the exam - he probably sucked. But he was a Jounin, and Kido did say that Neji was stronger than him. Fact. Jesus.

Notice, again, that promotions are not done on power - the weakest Genin is the one promoted to Chuunin.

EDIT:

The bias in favor of Jounins here is astonishing. I'm surprised that "Gaara channeling Shukaku, Curse Seal Sasuke, and Kyuubi Naruto versus that guy with the cough" hasn't been done.

the weakest genin became chuunin? wow when did sakura become a chuunin? and still they were 4 against 2 who were totally out of power. the jounins even said themselfs that if they had any chakra left they would have won. just face it no genin can defeat a jounin with his own power. now im not counting shukaku, curse seal or kyuubi. and mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.

oh and neji is nowhere near a jounin in strength since kidoumaru is nowhere near a jounin in strength.


@Jing: i dont know, i dont think so, if kishimoto checks the specials before they are made im starting to lsoe respect for the guy.

[Deezbeez]

As people have said before it would depend on which jounin, but chances are he could beat a few but not gai or kakashi.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.

well.....i wouldnt go that far.....
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand

[Y]

oh im sorry, i didnt realize i needed to repeat the same fact i pointed out 3 times already

Sorry, not everything that three people repeat on a messageboard becomes a fact.



since you're the one with such outrageous opinions regarding jounins

Ha ha. Outrageous? Hardly. It's only outrageous due to the preformed bias on this board.

[Elite Hentai]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure


Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.

well.....i wouldnt go that far.....
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand

What I heard is that Gaara got the sand from his mother and Shukaku from his father when he was born,

[mage]

elite hentai do you pay attention to the series at all?

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien
Sorry, not everything that three people repeat on a messageboard becomes a fact.

actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga
now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot



Ha ha. Outrageous? Hardly. It's only outrageous due to the preformed bias on this board.

yes, it IS outrageous. Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen, most of the things everyone believes, and even stuff like stats and explanations that came from the big guy himself.

Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.

When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job

Elite Hentai: no, all gaara got from his mother was birth i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
his father bound him to the sand and ashes of a dead sand priest that was possessed by the demon shukaku

[Coolman]

Hahahahahaa. This is funny. First off. Sasuke owned Gaara. Gaara would've been seriously injured, or killed by Sasuke if that fight continued. So, Sasuke could beat a Jounin as well?

Not sure we are reading the same manga, and watching the same show.

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure


Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.

well.....i wouldnt go that far.....
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand

true. i should have said it in a diffrent way. mostly he doesnt become(sort of) shukaku you know when the sand makes a body and stuff.

[Y]

actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga

One that, unfortunately, does not support your opinion. Raidou says "We were low on chakra, and that's why we Jounin are in this state now." What this does *not* mean is that at full power the two Jounin would have ass-raped the Sound Four. That is just, as usual, your own speculation. Hell, Raidou's *very next sentence* is that a TEAM of Jounin needs to be sent to protect the Genin. Wow Raidou, a team? Why don't you just ask AssertnFailure, just two of you could whip the Sound Four's ass! Except I think Raidou knows a bit better than you do, and he recommends a team of Jounin in ADDITION to the elite Genin. So Raidou (just like you) underestimated the Genin and overestimated the Sound Four.



now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot

It doesn't say what you want it to say. Nowhere in it does it say that people are promoted to Jounin because they are so ungodly powerful that they'd ass-rape any lower rank you threw at them.



Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen

I really think you're being willfully ignorant here. You know Kabuto's speech in the Tsunade arc, where he's all "This is a Jounin and above battle, Genin are worthless and weak here!" That's your position.

What happened to Kabuto after he gave that speech? He got torn up by the Rasengan and only lived because of his regeneration. Even then he was incapacitated. Yes, Naruto got ownzed too... but if you try to use friggin' Kabuto on a soldier pill as an example of the average Jounin, you're on drugs. Everyone who thinks of Jounin uses either Kakashi, Kabuto, or (if they're truly retarded) one of the Sannin as an example. These Jounin are *far* above average for their class, and it's been stated so several times.



most of the things everyone believes

Aww, going against the grain is an outrage? Too bad that's a logical fallacy - the number of people who believe something has absolutely no inherent connection with its truth.



Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.

When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job

Apparently I'm bad at debates? Who just displayed their lack of understanding in regards to the burden of proof? Yep... you. FYI, the burden of proof in any debate is on anyone making a positive assertion, and both sides here do so. I've laid out a lot of my arguments in the last thread I made on this, and laid out several here. FYI also, the number of people who believe something does *not* change the burden of proof. Oh, wait, I can't know that! I'm *bad* at debates.

People pretty much write off the elite Genin because they don't realize that they're being placed in confrontations that make for a good fight - not ones where they just fuck the enemy's brains out straight out of the box. I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise. Take Neji, as well. When he fought Naruto he was just dicking around and never used the Gentle Fist style to mess up his internal organs. When he fought Hinata and DIDN'T dick around, he friggin' destroyed her heart. And Kidoumaru got lucky because he JUST SO HAPPENED to be able to block the Jyuuken moves with his web armor. Let's say Neji had been fighting, oh, say, any other Sound nin. If he was truly ready to kill them, he could hit them ONCE and explode their heart. Hell, take Sasuke. How much of a fucking elder demon is it going to take to defeat him now that his Sharingan is fully unlocked? And yet people still talk like he's this pussy that Zabuza would own, despite getting so much stronger it isn't even funny.

[Coolman]

The only reason Kabuto got hit, is because he got very cocky.

And, guess what, fighting Tsunade has gotta drain your Stamina and your Chakra, he would've been able to heal, if he was at full from the start.

And saying that "oh, he only survived because of his regen" is bullshit, its a damn hard technique. Naruto only lived past the Haku arc because of the nine-tails. And I don't see anyone complaining. Hell, Naruto should've died right there, right then after Kabuto hit him, he had to be saved.

Also, the whole deal with Sasukes evolved sharigan. I think the manga overexagurated its effects. First off, Sasuke was able to see and predict movement before, its nothing new.

Zabuza would own him, plain and simple. Please, give me some facts on how Sasuke would beat him.

The gennin's aren't weaklings, but they don't compare. The difference between Kakashi and Itachi fighting, and Itachi and Sasuke, well, basically Itachi kicking the shit out of Sasuke for a while was huge.

Kakashi held his own quite nicely, he took a few shots only to save Kurenai, and only lost because of the Mangekyou. Itachi only used the mangekyou on Sasuke for torture purposes.

Funny, even if a TEAM of Jounin were needed to stop the sound 4, they looked pretty damn whipped after fighting the 2 jounins. Lets take some more quotes.

"We lose too much strenght when we fight at curse seal level 2"
"What troubles me most is the fact that we can't use our bodies"
"There wasn't any way agaisnt two Jounins... If we tried to conserve our energy, we may have been defeated."

Sounds like it was easy fighting 2 drained Jounins. So, 2 drained Jounins fight 4 sand nin, lose, but force them to use enough energy so they can't use their bodies, and go curse seal level 2, then immediately after fight Naruto and Co. inbetween running like heck. Also, Naruto and Co got Food Pills off Chouji.

Oh, and I didn't see anything about needing a team. I saw, "if you follow them, you will end up dead" but that was to a fellow Jounin that was with them, just as low on Chakra.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien
I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise.
ummm... i got a problem with this one...

you're trying to fabricate a vs scenario where the opposition against the genins have a huge disadvantage. you can't just put a jounin in that situation and say anyone except kimimaro would've been caught dead by gaara's techniques because anyone but kimimaro could have also stopped gaara from even attacking (well, not anyone but you get the point).

anyway, i think the point some of the people are trying to make is that, while not all jounins may have powerful jutsus (like gaara's sand techniques), they are more clever and intelligente than genins like gaara who rely more on their power moves than utilizing all of their skills and abilities efficiently. this pretty much leads to gaara not even being able to get a move off because jounins are just so much smarter and more efficient in their fights. kakashi is a pretty good example of how a jounin is so much more efficient in fighting.

[jing]

I think, Gaara can kill the crappiest Jounin in the world i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien


actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga

One that, unfortunately, does not support your opinion. Raidou says "We were low on chakra, and that's why we Jounin are in this state now." What this does *not* mean is that at full power the two Jounin would have ass-raped the Sound Four. That is just, as usual, your own speculation. Hell, Raidou's *very next sentence* is that a TEAM of Jounin needs to be sent to protect the Genin. Wow Raidou, a team? Why don't you just ask AssertnFailure, just two of you could whip the Sound Four's ass! Except I think Raidou knows a bit better than you do, and he recommends a team of Jounin in ADDITION to the elite Genin. So Raidou (just like you) underestimated the Genin and overestimated the Sound Four.



now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot

It doesn't say what you want it to say. Nowhere in it does it say that people are promoted to Jounin because they are so ungodly powerful that they'd ass-rape any lower rank you threw at them.



Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen

I really think you're being willfully ignorant here. You know Kabuto's speech in the Tsunade arc, where he's all "This is a Jounin and above battle, Genin are worthless and weak here!" That's your position.

What happened to Kabuto after he gave that speech? He got torn up by the Rasengan and only lived because of his regeneration. Even then he was incapacitated. Yes, Naruto got ownzed too... but if you try to use friggin' Kabuto on a soldier pill as an example of the average Jounin, you're on drugs. Everyone who thinks of Jounin uses either Kakashi, Kabuto, or (if they're truly retarded) one of the Sannin as an example. These Jounin are *far* above average for their class, and it's been stated so several times.



most of the things everyone believes

Aww, going against the grain is an outrage? Too bad that's a logical fallacy - the number of people who believe something has absolutely no inherent connection with its truth.



Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.

When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job

Apparently I'm bad at debates? Who just displayed their lack of understanding in regards to the burden of proof? Yep... you. FYI, the burden of proof in any debate is on anyone making a positive assertion, and both sides here do so. I've laid out a lot of my arguments in the last thread I made on this, and laid out several here. FYI also, the number of people who believe something does *not* change the burden of proof. Oh, wait, I can't know that! I'm *bad* at debates.

People pretty much write off the elite Genin because they don't realize that they're being placed in confrontations that make for a good fight - not ones where they just fuck the enemy's brains out straight out of the box. I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise. Take Neji, as well. When he fought Naruto he was just dicking around and never used the Gentle Fist style to mess up his internal organs. When he fought Hinata and DIDN'T dick around, he friggin' destroyed her heart. And Kidoumaru got lucky because he JUST SO HAPPENED to be able to block the Jyuuken moves with his web armor. Let's say Neji had been fighting, oh, say, any other Sound nin. If he was truly ready to kill them, he could hit them ONCE and explode their heart. Hell, take Sasuke. How much of a fucking elder demon is it going to take to defeat him now that his Sharingan is fully unlocked? And yet people still talk like he's this pussy that Zabuza would own, despite getting so much stronger it isn't even funny.

I like how most of your responses are based around the assumption that your first point was correct. That makes things a little easier for me i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif. For one thing......yes, it does mean that they wouldve raped the sound 4. Ninjas can tell how strong an opponent is by fighting them....and if they say "we wouldnt be in the state we're in now", then that means that they wouldve won. You have to realize, that this is a story created by somebody, not real life. Therefore when a detail like that is mentioned, then it SHOULD be obvious that the author intended to clarify something that people might not understand. Unfortunately this only works 99% of the time it seems. And yes a "team" of jounins. Why do you suppose that is? because jounins always travel in teams! Only a truly arrogant (or moronic) person would decide to take the bare minimum out to fight a battle if he had a safer alternative. This makes sense to me, but apparently you know more about how ninjas behave.

As for going against the grain being an outrage? no, i merely said that doing so puts you in the position of needing to prove your point moreso than the rest of us. When columbus challenged the idea of the world being round, was it the scientists' duty to prove him otherwise? no of course not. It would be idiotic to have to go through an endless debate among every individual person that might show up and say they disagree. And since this came up in one of my classes recently.....what about the nature vs nurture (gender roles are determined genetically vs dependent on the environment you're rased in) debate? Everyone believed it was nature for men to be dominant over women, but there was one woman who didnt believe in that. Did she just sit there waiting to be proven wrong? no....she went to tribes off in some island somewhere and did extensive research.

anyway thats longwinded and all.......but the fact remains the same. There is never a topic that 100% of the people agree on. Therefore its more along the lines of "the majority will believe what they want to believe, and wont give a shit what the minority believes unless the minority brings up convincing evidence"

in short....yes.....the burden of proof is dependent on popular opinion




now......moving on.............

if you really want to know what i think of all this....i look at it this way. There are two factors that determine a match between 2 characters.
1) the level of the character
2) the level of the jutsus the character knows

typically, one character can only beat another character if they use a jutsu that is equal to or higher than the level of the opponent.

mizuki was beatin by kage bunshin (chuunin vs a jounin jutsu)
Haku was beaten by kyubi chakra (jounin vs demon power)
kabuto was beaten by rasengan (jounin vs super A rank blah blah jutsu)
etc....

[Y]

you're trying to fabricate a vs scenario where the opposition against the genins have a huge disadvantage..

This is partially my point - anyone who does *not* happen to have an incredibly powerful shield of bones and is not able to move their body by willpower alone would have been at a *serious* disadvantage.



you can't just put a jounin in that situation and say anyone except kimimaro would've been caught dead by gaara's techniques because anyone but kimimaro could have also stopped gaara from even attacking (well, not anyone but you get the point).

Er, can you prove this is true? My point is kinda that Random Jounin #47 ain't all that. I doubt that most people could have stopped Gaara's enormous, ungodly huge sand wave (since the fighters in Naruto seem perfectly content to let their opponent launch Jutsus and not speedblitz them).




anyway, i think the point some of the people are trying to make is that, while not all jounins may have powerful jutsus (like gaara's sand techniques), they are more clever and intelligente than genins like gaara who rely more on their power moves than utilizing all of their skills and abilities efficiently.

I don't think that *most* of them are making this point. However, this is true. Jounins who have a greater mastery over their own skills might be able to surpass the enormous raw power than is Gaara - thing is, we've never seen a Jounin like this (except for, maybe, Gai or Kakashi, who are obviously not the average Jounin). I don't consider one-hit-wonders like Asuma or Kurenai to be especially "skilled" - I'm surethey might be, but they hasn't shown any more creativity than the Genin. In addition, skill can only take you so far - if, say, Gaara activated his enormous sand wave, pretty much anyone is shit out of luck. If Neji lightly taps you once - shit out of luck.



this pretty much leads to gaara not even being able to get a move off because jounins are just so much smarter and more efficient in their fights.

Really? The Jounin seemed perfectly content to let their opponents use Jutsus and THEN try to work their way out of them. Kakashi does this because he wants to copy their technique of course, and Zabuza let Kakashi practically write a damn book because he was just playing around, but someone like Asuma was content to let Kisame whip out his Jutsu. Unless of course you hypothesize that they're actually doing hand seals at super speed and the Genins aren't. Kisame seemed to be the only one who acted preemptively to stop anyone from using a technique, with his Samehada.

Personally, I think a Jounin has pretty much the same attitude that my opposition does in this thread. They don't think the Genin can do anything to them. If both were gunning for each other's lives it might be a tossup as to who gets off the first attack, but a Jounin isn't going to take a Genin seriously with both in character - and against someone who can crush you under thousands of tons of rock, or explode your internal organs, that is a serious mistake.

[jing]

I think assert is quite right on this one.

I think a Jounin can defeat Gaara, if they get through his sand shield.

Maybe there is a Jounin in the world that is not capable of doing it. (but they most likely know).

[Assertn]

lee could get through his sand shield.....and i dont think his taijutsu is quite "jounin level" yet
not saying that all jounins have "jounin level" taijutsu however, but for the ones that do manage to max that out, then yeah, gaara's sand shield would be pwned

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien
blah blah blah blah blah
ok, well i think you're missing my point. what my main point is, against a jounin, gaara won't even be able to get an attack off like that. and gaara somehow manages to do so, i don't think a jounin will be beaten by it so quickly.

[Y]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: Y The Alien
blah blah blah blah blah
ok, well i think you're missing my point. what my main point is, against a jounin, gaara won't even be able to get an attack off like that. and gaara somehow manages to do so, i don't think a jounin will be beaten by it so quickly.

Despite the fact that no Jounin has ever speedblitzed anyone right off the bat?

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien
Despite the fact that no Jounin has ever speedblitzed anyone right off the bat?
gai speedblitzed kisame right in the face. it was pretty cool.

[Y]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: Y The Alien
Despite the fact that no Jounin has ever speedblitzed anyone right off the bat?
gai speedblitzed kisame right in the face. it was pretty cool.

Sneak attacks aren't quite the same thing as a heads-up battle.

EDIT:

But point taken.

[tuggumkee]

Didn't Gaara already kill a jounin ontop of the rooftops during the chunin exams? or was that baki... Either way IMHO most of the genins cannot take down a jounin. But there hasn't been many examples of jounins fighting something weaker than themselves.

[Assertn]

gaara killed dosu, baki killed hayate

but the thing with gaara and naruto, is that they can use demon level moves....which no human can really compete with

[Coolman]

Itachi did kinda speed attack Sasuke. Just knocked away the Chidori, then horribly beat his ass down with Taijustu. Theres a situation where a Jounin just doesn't care and beats the shit out of the opponent.

And you never responded to my post.

[KaneInferno]

Originally posted by: Kenshiro
ok, this is how it goes (or how i think it goes, anyway).

There are three times when you have to consider his strenght.

1. chunun selection exam - non transformed
2. when fighting sasgay - transformed
3. Vs Kimi

At point 1 he is no more powerful than a strong genin/ weak chunin. because....
a) Sasuke beats him up (and he is only a genin)
b) he really wanted to fight neji (and he only fights strong people and neji is a genin)
c) it was a close fight between him and Rock (and rock is a genin)

At point 2, he is at least as strong as a jounin, and could probably take on a few. because....
a) remeber that it is not actually Gaara, but in fact a demon that is unleashed.
b) The Sound and Sand villages went to all of the trouble of making him go to the exam as part of the master plan to destroy konoha, and there would be no point if he was a pussy.
c) it is a very even fight between Shukaku and Gamabunta
d) All the top level summons (yes i know Shukaku isnt a summon, im talking about Gama) are about as strong as a Sannin (Manda doesnt take shit from Oro; Enma smacked about the 1st and 2nd hokages for a bit
e) It wasnt Naruto that beat Shukaku, it was Gama that fought him, Naruto only woke him up, and he need ed to use Kyubi to get out of the sand.

At point 3 he is probably as stong as a mid level Chunin. because...
a) he has visibly improved since we saw him last.
b) he is not as strong as Kimi (kimi broke through all of his defences)
c) there is not much to base this argument on.


EDIT to post below

Sorry, in point 2. I meant when he is fully transformed and fighting Naruto, not Sasgay

heh...sasgay...hilarious

[PSJ]

are you saying that you havent heard that before? there were whole threads solely on that.

[KaneInferno]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
are you saying that you havent heard that before? there were whole threads solely on that.

uhh... look at how many posts i have. of course i havent

[PSJ]

yea but some noobs these days check the forums months before they join.

[KaneInferno]

*sigh* i don't care any more...have a nice day

[PSJ]

yea yea okay it was my bad i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif i wont bother you about it anymore. just dont bring the "sasgay" comment up to much the old member are rather tired of it i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[KaneInferno]

i wont

[Y]

For one thing......yes, it does mean that they wouldve raped the sound 4

The reason I said "raped" was because you imply that they would have no chance and get skullfucked. We have no idea if Raidou's impression of them was correct - you assume it is, just like you assume Kidoumaru's impression of the Jounin was wrong. Nor do we know the true difference in the groups when both are at full strength. Don't act as if we do.



Ninjas can tell how strong an opponent is by fighting them...

1) Kidoumaru is a ninja
2) Kidoumaru fought Genma and Raidou
3) Kidoumaru fought Neji
4) Kidoumaru said Neji was the strongest person he'd ever faced
4b) Kidoumaru, as a ninja, can tell how strong Genma and Raidou really were
5) Ergo, Neji is stronger than a Jounin.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif



and if they say "we wouldnt be in the state we're in now", then that means that they wouldve won.

Likely, but not "raped them skullfucked 10/10 lols".



You have to realize, that this is a story created by somebody, not real life

You get an A on condescension.



Therefore when a detail like that is mentioned, then it SHOULD be obvious that the author intended to clarify something that people might not understand.

Like someone directly stating that a Genin is the strongest opponent he's ever faced, despite fighting 2 Jounins practically 30 minutes before?



Unfortunately this only works 99% of the time it seems.

You, again, get high marks for smartassery.



And yes a "team" of jounins. Why do you suppose that is? because jounins always travel in teams!

Like Kakashi is doing, alone, in the latest chapter? Yes, I'm cheating by introducing evidence you didn't have when you made this post.



Only a truly arrogant (or moronic) person would decide to take the bare minimum out to fight a battle if he had a safer alternative.

See above.



As for going against the grain being an outrage? no, i merely said that doing so puts you in the position of needing to prove your point moreso than the rest of us.

No, it doesn't. Mob opinion doesn't affect truth or burden of proof in the least.



When columbus challenged the idea of the world being round, was it the scientists' duty to prove him otherwise?

The idea of flat-earth being the prevalent opinion at the time of Columbus is largely a myth, but we'll go with this example. You are wrong - it is first their job to prove themselves RIGHT - or at least prove themselves to be the most likely answer. The default assertion does not assume magic truth simply from having been made first.



It would be idiotic to have to go through an endless debate among every individual person that might show up and say they disagree.

Thank god you're not a scientist. "Feynman? Bohr? They're just two guys, what the hell do THEY know about electrodynamics?"



some horrid example

I'm not explaining the burden of proof to you. Google it.

[jing]

No Neji was not stronger than a Jounin.

Kidoumaru said he was the strongest he ever fought meaning in a ONE ON ONE situation.....

[tuggumkee]

Kakashi went out by himself for his mission assigned my tsunade(the mission he just came back from). meaning that Jounin dont always go in teams. I actually thought that jounin usually go out solo(Gai, Kakashi, so far thats what it had seemed to me)

Though I agree that the sound nin guy was talking about 1 on 1 and not gang bangs

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: jing
No Neji was not stronger than a Jounin.

Kidoumaru said he was the strongest he ever fought meaning in a ONE ON ONE situation.....

exactly what i was going to say.

i cant believe ppl still live in denial. genins are not stronger than jounins. neji is not stronger than 2 jounins together. gaara cannot beat a jounin.

[shadowmagus]

um ok pardon me but someoen mentioned that neji is no where near the power of a jounin. well i may have to agree but neji can perform divine cyclone (not sure if its an accurate translation to english) which uses every single one of his tenketsu at once. MOST jounins can only perform jutsus and releasechakra out of one tenketsu at a time. And im not completely sure where i picked this up so correct me if im wrong but i keep hearing that hakkeshou kaiten is near impossible to perform. uhh if its near impossible wouldnt neji need just little bit of credit?!

[jing]

Originally posted by: shadowmagus
um ok pardon me but someoen mentioned that neji is no where near the power of a jounin. well i may have to agree but neji can perform divine cyclone (not sure if its an accurate translation to english) which uses every single one of his tenketsu at once. MOST jounins can only perform jutsus and releasechakra out of one tenketsu at a time. And im not completely sure where i picked this up so correct me if im wrong but i keep hearing that hakkeshou kaiten is near impossible to perform. uhh if its near impossible wouldnt neji need just little bit of credit?!

In that case, I would say that Neji is a genius at mastering his own clans' moves.

[shinichi69]

hahaz... releasin chakra from his acupoints is a characteristic of his clan moves huh? and how does it compare him with a jounin just because of that?

[shinichi69]

hmmm... Gaara is very strong... judging that only sasuke can hurt him a little wif chidori and super high speed... others probably cant do that... except for kakashi...

[Jman]

there's an button to EDIT posts so you don't double post shinichi69

And on topic. Gaara can beat jounin depending on their individual skill level. if he went against kakashi or gai i think he'd be killed long before his shukaku form can come out whereas with other weak jounin, he'd easily get rid of em.

[Death BOO Z]

Gaara can beat any jounin, except the ones who have names...
Gaara won't win against Gai, Kakashi, Asume or Baki, but will win against 'random jounin #1, #2, #3'
the only named jounins he has a chance at beating are Raido, Genma, Hyate (dead) and perhaps Shizune and Shikamaru's dad...

looking at that, he has a chance at beating a shitload of jounins...

oh, and current Naruto\Sasuke\Neji can do the same, give or take a jounin...

[Edort4]

I think that even inside the genins chuunin and jounins are diferences and we must admit tha gaara is not a normal gennin. Naruto is not weak but a chunnin lvl genjutsu can make him go to sleep so that means he is crap? Every character has his strengths and weakness, the wiser they grow up with experience the stronger they become in every aspect not only strength(that's waht means to become chunin or jounin i think).

If gaara is still a gennin is because hi lacks of some kind of strenght, i dont think he can beat any jounin without the suhaku monstercrap thing. But he can hurt the weak jounins a lot if they are confident and have only long range ninjutsus.

Bye.

[Uchiha Kakure]

I have to disagree with most of you. I do in fact think that Gaara can defeat quite a few Jounins. He could wipe out an intire army if he so chooses. (See Ryuusa Bakuryuu, Sabaku Taisou combo. He has three forms of defense, Suna no Tate, Suna no Heki, Saikou Zettai Bougyo- Shukaku no Tate, all of which has its advantages. Not to mention he's got an incredible array of offensive moves, varing from the Suna bushin to his many variationsof the Sabaku Kyou. He defeated his uncle when he was much younger and he was at least on the chunnin level. He has an obscene amount of chakra, and one of the most complete technique bases seen in the manga. He can defeat quite a few Jounins, though Kakashi and his peers will defeat him.

[PSJ]

is this disucssion still going on? gaara is overrated. just because he looked cool and strong against kimimaro doesnt make him some kind of god.

[Deblas]

your right hes not a god but he is definetly strong

[drcitan]

Gaara would probably get owned by a Jounin.

[fremeer]

what i want to know is what happens when gaara gets older and the sand is too slow to keep up with his opponents because nearly all TRUE jounin from konoha can move as fast as lee. also i thought hayate was chuunin

[drcitan]

Originally posted by: fremeer
what i want to know is what happens when gaara gets older and the sand is too slow to keep up with his opponents because nearly all TRUE jounin from konoha can move as fast as lee. also i thought hayate was chuunin

I'm pretty sure when gaara gets older he'll have some new techinques that will make up for his lack of speed.

[Hollow]

He's got that whole Sand cloud thing right now....that was kinda nifty...

Arena of sand. Sandy conditions inhibit movement. Why speed himself up if he can slow his opponent down?

[drcitan]

Originally posted by: Hollow
He's got that whole Sand cloud thing right now....that was kinda nifty...

Arena of sand. Sandy conditions inhibit movement. Why speed himself up if he can slow his opponent down?

Exactly. But what if there is no sand around?

[Hollow]

It's in the manga. Gaara can create sand from his suroundings, taking minerals out of soil and such to create new sand.

[jing]

I'd say Gaara can defeat a couple of jounins that are not from Konoha.

[drcitan]

Originally posted by: Hollow
It's in the manga. Gaara can create sand from his suroundings, taking minerals out of soil and such to create new sand.

Right but if he were to fight in an area like during the prelims against Rock it would be pretty tough with no soil around him. Or maybe with the pressure of the desert coffin he could crush up some pieces of stone into minerals.

[Deblas]

he has that big vase that has sand so their wouldn't be a problem

[Franggio]

For real, the problem is that Lee could have killed Gaara in about 3 seconds, the whole problem is that Kishimoto seems against the use of high speed Taijutsu users to stab theire oponents, and from what I've seen there isn't a slow Jounin theire Gen/Tai/Ninjutsu ar above the Elit anbu, so no, Gaara wouldn't stand a chanse against a serius Jounin, if it was so it would just be ridicilous.

[drcitan]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Deblas
he has that big vase that has sand so their wouldn't be a problem

It was a problem when he fought Lee.

[basey44]

what are u talking about, he had plenty of sand, the amount of sand was no problem, this is abserved as gaara won the match BY USING HIS SAND

[drcitan]

Speed wise