Party Balance

[Sanjuro]

You know back when they said all of the groups were specially selected for balance, back when they first became Genin? Was this really true? Think about it: I know in theory Naruto's party was balanced (Naruto=worst Sakura=mediocre sasuke=#1) but what about the Ino-Shika-Chou group? they seem pretty weak (yes i know Shikamaru is cool, but still) while the Hinata-Kiba-Shino groups seems unusuallky strong (they were like the 2nd ppl to finish the forest of death right?) Just wondering what you guys thought.

OH yeah and doesnt Rock Lee's group seem ridiculously strong (before the...incident I mean)

[SofaKing]

Remember, it's balanced based on their scores at the academy, which don't always match real-world performance very well. Also, Rock Lee's group has a year of training and experience on the other nine groups.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro
You know back when they said all of the groups were specially selected for balance, back when they first became Genin? Was this really true? Think about it: I know in theory Naruto's party was balanced (Naruto=worst Sakura=mediocre sasuke=#1) but what about the Ino-Shika-Chou group? they seem pretty weak (yes i know Shikamaru is cool, but still) while the Hinata-Kiba-Shino groups seems unusuallky strong (they were like the 2nd ppl to finish the forest of death right?) Just wondering what you guys thought.

OH yeah and doesnt Rock Lee's group seem ridiculously strong (before the...incident I mean)

Who I think is the strongest overall out of the 9 when they were put into groups:

1. Sasuke
2. Shino
3. Hinata
4. Sakura
5. Shikamaru
6. Kiba
7. Chouji
8. Ino
9. Naruto

Hinata was in the top 3 and Kiba and Shikamaru were both in the middle where as Ino and naruto were the weakest. But currently the order is:

1. Naruto
2. Sasuke
3. Shino
4. Shikamaru
5. Chouji
6. Hinata
7. Kiba
8. Ino
9. Sakura

[SofaKing]

Chouji, stronger than Hinata?

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Yea deffinetly, his jutsu is much more well balanced when fighting someone then Hinata's Tenketsu attacks

[Munsu]

I think the only unbalance was in the Naruto group... because it has the "X" factoy in Naruto... only Iruka sensei knew how dedicated Naruto was... so they have the strongest group of all... Sakura can just be discarded... the other two can take on anyone.... Maybe it was balanced through their personalities

The Rock Lee group doesnt factor here since they are older...


But there certainly was some thought behind the selection of the groups... remember Tsunade studying the 3rd's records of the groups

[SofaKing]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Yea deffinetly, his jutsu is much more well balanced when fighting someone then Hinata's Tenketsu attacks

I don't think so. Look how easily Dosu defeated him. All you need to do is to stop his movement for a moment and he's toast. Hell, he'd probably tire himself out before actually hitting Hinata.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: SofaKing


Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Yea deffinetly, his jutsu is much more well balanced when fighting someone then Hinata's Tenketsu attacks

I don't think so. Look how easily Dosu defeated him. All you need to do is to stop his movement for a moment and he's toast. Hell, he'd probably tire himself out before actually hitting Hinata.

Dosu had a technique that was very effective against him. Hinata is still far away from Neji's level of Hyuuga fighting ability. Chouji's meat tank is a move that most Ninja's could have trouble dealing with. He is moving really fast btw.

[Kakafosha]

i really think that the groups were arranged by personality. each team as their like loud/obnoxious person, one quiet "cool" guy, and a left over?

[PSJ]

change the left over to a useless girl and it fits. but in the begining they were created to be as balanced as possible.

[Shinji Ikari]

Life is just unfair, they all weren't cut out to be in Naruto's team, tough, but they must have figured that as Sasuke is so bad of a ninja, he would need Naruto's support. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Assertn]

i have a few arguments with your theory kagemane............

first of all, ino was said to be the best of the females in her class when they graduated....so she should be much higher in the list
hinata has no confidence, and even after graduating still messed up on missions and such.....she should be closer to the bottom


1) sasuke
2) shino
3) ino
4) sakura
5) kiba
6) shikamaru
7) chouji
8) hinata
9) naruto

that would be MY guess

[Sanjuro]

Originally posted by: Kakafosha
i really think that the groups were arranged by personality. each team as their like loud/obnoxious person, one quiet "cool" guy, and a left over?


Whoa damn that actually makes alot of sense if you look at all of the groups....

[Knives122]

It could of also been with their relationships with one another, in the teams there was at least one person that didnt like the other when they were first grouped

[uhicha neji]

You seem to be missing Gai's group.

Naruto
Rock Lee (before he got raped)
Neji
Sasuke
Shikamaru
Shino
Hinata
Chouji
Ino
Sakura

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji
You seem to be missing Gai's group.

Naruto
Rock Lee (before he got raped)
Neji
Sasuke
Shikamaru
Shino
Hinata
Chouji
Ino
Sakura

Is this of how you think of them now?

Because I think that Sasuke is stronger than Neji... I also doubt Naruto is that strong (although I reall do want to look upon him as that strong).

[ilabb]

I thought it went on test scores, then if that was the case Shikamaru would be at the bottom with Naruto. Someone said that Ino was the best female, so she was probably put on that team to counteract Shikamaru, and Chouji is right there in the middle. To be honest, though, I think their parents requested that those 3 be on the same team for tradition's sake...

For the Kiba, Shino, and Hinata team... if it went on test scores it'd seem like Kiba would have been the lowest, Hinata average, and Shino acing the test.

That's my 2 cents.

[uhicha neji]

The last time you saw Sasuke fight was when he fought Gaara, and he got owned (I didn't count that Itachi thing)

Neji would stop Sasuke IMO. Naruto right now is stronger than any Genin, he beat Neji, and Gaara and fought Kabuto (as strong as Kakashi)

[Shinji Ikari]

Maybe, I only think of what abilities they have, and I don't think Neji would get in a single hit on Sasuke, but on the other hand, that migt be the same thing for Sasuke (if not his new found Rock Lee speed could give him a push in the right direction)

[Assertn]

neji, lee, and tenten graduated a year before the other genins......
therefore you cant compare them in this topic

and i know shikamaru did poor on tests, but im sure he did decent on the other stuff
i might swap him and chouji on the list, idk

but i dont get why everyone seems to insist kiba is the worst of his team, judging from his performance in the prelims, i'd say he was in the upper half of his class

[Sanjuro]

Yeah Kiba should have beat Naruto...but i guess that would have messed up the story. But The Hinata-Kiba-Shino team seems pretty strong out of the gates. Oh yeah, and Rock LEe would have beaten the crap out of anybody but Gaara! And the Ino-Shika-Chou trio cant be a coincidence, if their parents were in the same group too

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
neji, lee, and tenten graduated a year before the other genins......
therefore you cant compare them in this topic

and i know shikamaru did poor on tests, but im sure he did decent on the other stuff
i might swap him and chouji on the list, idk

but i dont get why everyone seems to insist kiba is the worst of his team, judging from his performance in the prelims, i'd say he was in the upper half of his class

Kiba is deff the worst. Hinata is close though, but Shino is by far the best of their team.

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
neji, lee, and tenten graduated a year before the other genins......
therefore you cant compare them in this topic

and i know shikamaru did poor on tests, but im sure he did decent on the other stuff
i might swap him and chouji on the list, idk

but i dont get why everyone seems to insist kiba is the worst of his team, judging from his performance in the prelims, i'd say he was in the upper half of his class

They didn't graduate a year before the other graduates, Gai kept them in for another year of missions. That's why he and Kakashi argued at the beginning of the Chunnin exams.

Kiba is the worst out those three.

[Munsu]

??? what are you smoking... the fact that Gai kept them in missions for another full year proves that they indeed graduated before...

There is no argument it is a stated fact...

[Assertn]

where do you guys get this "kiba is the worst" info from??

so tell me uchiha neji.....when they refer to neji as "last year's #1 rookie" what do you think that means? i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
gai kept them in another year of missions AS A GENIN....which means they graduated a year before naruto, but still attended the chuunin exam at the same time as them

[Aeon]

Each team has a top fighter(Sasuke, Shino, Chouji), smart person (Sakura, Hinata, Ino) and slacker(Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba). I dunno if Ino is the brains of the team or if she is the fighter since she was the top female student. And pffft to ever said Sasuke was stronger then Neji.

[Sanjuro]

Hang on a sec....Chouji is the top fighter on that team...and ino is the brains!?? For fighters, how could you not say Kiba? I wouold say Shino is closer to being the brains on that team than hinata. I guess I can accept Chouji being the fighter (even though he sucks ass) but Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

[uhicha neji]

Naruto beat Kiba without doing basically anything...

Ah, I remember now. Your right.

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro
Yeah Kiba should have beat Naruto...but i guess that would have messed up the story. But The Hinata-Kiba-Shino team seems pretty strong out of the gates. Oh yeah, and Rock LEe would have beaten the crap out of anybody but Gaara! And the Ino-Shika-Chou trio cant be a coincidence, if their parents were in the same group too

There is no way that Kiba could have beat Naruto even in the best of Kiba's days. He just isn't strong enough.

[Sanjuro]

You may be right now that he spends his days teaching his dog to target piss./..still i think hes a cool character

[Munsu]

Probably what he meant is at the time the team was formed based on the scores...


When the group was chosen, Shikamaru was not considered to be the brain... it is something that the team started to notice once the missions started...

But I really think they just had a hat with all the names in it, and they just drew the team members

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji
Naruto beat Kiba without doing basically anything...
ok you've proven yourself in more ways than one that you need to watch the series again i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

and hinata = smart wtf?
just cause she's a girl i bet, right?

i feel like im talking to a wall here -_-

[Shinji Ikari]

Let's just say the teachers sucked at realizing the true abilities of all of their students and made many wrong calls.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Aeon
Each team has a top fighter(Sasuke, Shino, Chouji), smart person (Sakura, Hinata, Ino) and slacker(Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba). I dunno if Ino is the brains of the team or if she is the fighter since she was the top female student. And pffft to ever said Sasuke was stronger then Neji.

Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.

[SofaKing]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Dosu had a technique that was very effective against him. Hinata is still far away from Neji's level of Hyuuga fighting ability. Chouji's meat tank is a move that most Ninja's could have trouble dealing with. He is moving really fast btw.

He's fast, but only when moving in a straight line. Keep in mind, we've never seen him actually hit anyone with his technique.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: SofaKing


Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Dosu had a technique that was very effective against him. Hinata is still far away from Neji's level of Hyuuga fighting ability. Chouji's meat tank is a move that most Ninja's could have trouble dealing with. He is moving really fast btw.

He's fast, but only when moving in a straight line. Keep in mind, we've never seen him actually hit anyone with his technique.

That's true, maybe I think so highly of Chouji cause he flys out of the air and crushes everyone for INO's special, in Naruto2 for GC.

[Sanjuro]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Originally posted by: Sanjuro
Yeah Kiba should have beat Naruto...but i guess that would have messed up the story. But The Hinata-Kiba-Shino team seems pretty strong out of the gates. Oh yeah, and Rock LEe would have beaten the crap out of anybody but Gaara! And the Ino-Shika-Chou trio cant be a coincidence, if their parents were in the same group too

There is no way that Kiba could have beat Naruto even in the best of Kiba's days. He just isn't strong enough.


Thats ridiculous! Kiba was beating the shit out of Naruto the whole time until Naruto farted in his face! WTF is the chance of him farting! in his face!? what kind of person does that? I think its safe to say that if that hadn't happened, Kiba would have won (remember Naruto's Kyuubi chakra was sealed at the time)

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure


Originally posted by: uhicha neji
Naruto beat Kiba without doing basically anything...
ok you've proven yourself in more ways than one that you need to watch the series again

and hinata = smart wtf?
just cause she's a girl i bet, right?

i feel like im talking to a wall here -_-

Naruto didn't use anyyyy techniques (even though he didn't know any really) he just fought full out and still came out ontop, and at that point in the series he wasn't strong. He didn't even use the Kyuubi's chakra (Oro closed it) This proves how week Kiba is :\

[Sanjuro]

wtf he farted in his fucking face!! It was dumb luck that kiba's sense of smell was super-sensitive!! he didn't do it on purpose! do u need to watch the episode again!?

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro


Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Originally posted by: Sanjuro
Yeah Kiba should have beat Naruto...but i guess that would have messed up the story. But The Hinata-Kiba-Shino team seems pretty strong out of the gates. Oh yeah, and Rock LEe would have beaten the crap out of anybody but Gaara! And the Ino-Shika-Chou trio cant be a coincidence, if their parents were in the same group too

There is no way that Kiba could have beat Naruto even in the best of Kiba's days. He just isn't strong enough.


Thats ridiculous! Kiba was beating the shit out of Naruto the whole time until Naruto farted in his face! WTF is the chance of him farting! in his face!? what kind of person does that? I think its safe to say that if that hadn't happened, Kiba would have won (remember Naruto's Kyuubi chakra was sealed at the time)


Yeah, and if things would have been normal for Naruto Kiba would tand even less of a chance since it made not only kyubi chakra unstable but also his normal chakra which most people seem to forget when thinking about this fight. If his normal chakra would have been okey, then Kiba's sorry dogshit ass would have been whopped to the eastern side of that country.

Naruto did "mold" chakra on purpose to fart, it was his intentions, and no matter how discusting you may think it was, it was still very effective.

Edit: And no, it was not dumb luck. Naruto calculated that based on the info that he got. He knew that Kiba could sniff himself to akamaru, therefore he also knew that his senses were very fragile to bad smells, common sense guys.

[Aeon]

I guess it's time to defend my post, When the teams were picked Shikamaru had scores very close to Naruto in the acadamy because picking up a pen was too troublesome for him to complete tests. Also in the flashbacks Kiba was always sleeping in class and escaping class with Naruto and Shikamaru. That's why I put them three in the slacker bracket. As far as Hinata being smart only reason why I say that is because during the Chuunin exam her and Sakura were the only people that didn't cheat, so I'm guessing she had confidance in her answers.



Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.

1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
Yeah, and if things would have been normal for Naruto Kiba would tand even less of a chance since it made not only kyubi chakra unstable but also his normal chakra which most people seem to forget when thinking about this fight. If his normal chakra would have been okey, then Kiba's sorry dogshit ass would have been whopped to the eastern side of that country.

Naruto did "mold" chakra on purpose to fart, it was his intentions, and no matter how discusting you may think it was, it was still very effective.

Edit: And no, it was not dumb luck. Naruto calculated that based on the info that he got. He knew that Kiba could sniff himself to akamaru, therefore he also knew that his senses were very fragile to bad smells, common sense guys.

no.....if things would have been normal for naruto, then kiba would have had just about the same chance anyway.

1) naruto didnt know how to control kyubi's chakra until after he met jiraiya
2) only way naruto used kyubi's chakra was when he was uber pissed.....and i doubt that wouldve happened from just a prelim match.

the real reason that naruto beat kiba was the same reason naruto beat haku and kabuto and gaara
because the enemy underestimated him and just toyed around with him instead

Aeon: kiba was sleepin in class that ONE flashback....i sleep in class alot in HS but that doesnt mean anything i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif chouji, shika, naruto, and kiba were all in trouble in that flashback with iruka telling them about the forehead leaf exercise, so does that mean that all 4 of them are on the bottom of the list? The defining characteristic of kiba is his arrogance...and you cant be arrogant if you're at the bottom.

Also i highly doubt hinata was able to answer all the questions by herself. Sakura was the ONLY person who could possibly do that, and i'm sure sasuke wouldve had a better chance at solving the problems than hinata.

[Mut]

why is this even asked as a question...

of course not all the teams will be perfectly balanced. and hinata sucks, she really does. if there were actual rankings hinata would be in the bottom 3 along with naruto and some other loser genin.

and as for naruto not using his kyubi chakra against kiba... the kyubi chakra has always been merging with naruto's own chakra. so whether naruto wants to use the kyubi chakra or not, part of it is being used anyway.

[Assertn]

yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

[Shi_No_Shikaku]

thay were based on scores of the acadamy or how ever it spell it....

[tuggumkee]

The teams were based off of the scores of the academy and probably personality. For those who said the Gai team couldn't be counted, it can be. Neji was #1, and Lee was last, tenten probably in the middle.
I'm not just bashing Lee, but if u look back to the time when he just started he sucked it big time.

Teams were pretty balanced coming out of the academy. Kiba was said to be as bad as naruto(narrirated by naruto during the beginning of chunnin exam), shika is the same.

There obviously was more taken into consideration when they made the groups i.e. Ino-shika-choji team, but they were all balanced

[Munsu]

The reason that it couldnt be counted is because it doesnt matter how good Neji was and how bad Lee was... or how average Tenten was... all their scores are irrelevant for the arragement of the new groups for the sole reason that they were upperclassmen... they do not factor into the decision of the group formations...

If you are using Neji's group as an example of how the groups are formed hystorically, then I agree with you

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

[chambers]

i love the war in kiba's group he barks stuff like hes theleader but everyone really knows its shino that wears the pants, that guy is weird and i reckon he could probly beat most of the other genins, there are just too many possabilities for him to get his bugs on them!

[Rek]

except naruto. (seriously) the chakra bugs could eat his fucking face off and he'd still be coming. Remember Neji's chakra seal? Just like that.

[TwisT]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro
You know back when they said all of the groups were specially selected for balance, back when they first became Genin? Was this really true? Think about it: I know in theory Naruto's party was balanced (Naruto=worst Sakura=mediocre sasuke=#1) but what about the Ino-Shika-Chou group? they seem pretty weak (yes i know Shikamaru is cool, but still) while the Hinata-Kiba-Shino groups seems unusuallky strong (they were like the 2nd ppl to finish the forest of death right?) Just wondering what you guys thought.

OH yeah and doesnt Rock Lee's group seem ridiculously strong (before the...incident I mean)

Well they had a whole year of practise.. And if you remember correctly Kabuto said that Rock Lee sucked ass but had improved extremly in taijutsu the last year.. So when the graduated Neji was nr.1 rookie, TenTen was avarage and Rock Lee was like Naruto and was the worst student..

But like Naruto-team Rock Lee trained hard and became one of the strongest..

So like Naruto-team they have there class 2 best guys and a avarage woman in there team (even if sakura turned out to be there class worst student unlike TenTen that could actually do something)


Oh and for Kiba-team.. From the flashback when Naruto tried to learn Rasengan we saw that Kiba was not a bright kid.. Always pulling pranks like Naruto..


But what i dont get is the Ino-Shika-Choji team.. Shika was really bad in school.. It was not untill they have got Asuma as there trainer and he did that IQ-test that they new that he was super-smart.. So he must have been in the bottom of the class with Kiba and Naruto.. So is was Choji that great in school?? Because i see Ino as an avarage like Sakura.. So Choji must have been the one that was expected to be the strongest in there team..

And forgive my english.. I have no time to look over my spelling today..

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.


Check and mate.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Aeon
I guess it's time to defend my post, When the teams were picked Shikamaru had scores very close to Naruto in the acadamy because picking up a pen was too troublesome for him to complete tests. Also in the flashbacks Kiba was always sleeping in class and escaping class with Naruto and Shikamaru. That's why I put them three in the slacker bracket. As far as Hinata being smart only reason why I say that is because during the Chuunin exam her and Sakura were the only people that didn't cheat, so I'm guessing she had confidance in her answers.



Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.

1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor.

Yea it's close as hell....damn, Neji vs Sasuke would make an awesome fight.

Edit: and my opinion as to Neji and Sasuke being close in intelligence, Sasuke is third smartest in the group of 9 with Shika being 1 and Shino 2. I think Neji is around Shino or Sasuke's level. I think most people could agree with me on that one.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji


Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.


Check and mate.
if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[wirm]

I think in a fight, Hinata would easily beat Sakura. Sakura hasn't shown any skills in fighting at all. No need to get into details.



I'd like to throw my 2 cents in about some of the points brought up so far.


1) Hinata doesn't hit people's tenketsus. Neji does that. Hinata can see them, but it takes a very skilled fighter to actually hit them in a fight. Hinata uses the gentle-fist technique to hit the chakra circulatory system and internal organs. It doesn't matter where she hits, it will still cause a lot of damage. Hitting tenketsus seems to be a humiliation technique that Neji was showing off with. Why seal up a person's chakra when you can just kill them?

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

4) I would love to see Kaiten vs Chidori. I know that chidori should cut through just about anything, but Kaiten is designed to parry any attack (not block). So the full force of impact would be directed to the side. If I had to guess, I'd say Kaiten would win. Still, it'd be cool i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure


Originally posted by: uhicha neji


Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.


Check and mate.
if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter?

I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

[kenshi]

Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.


i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji
I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

lol nice dodge of the discussion
i do admit when people point out details i havent thought of yet, but im yet to find that in this convo

a response like that tells me that you just want to side with someone who shares a similar opinion as you do, but you dont have a reason as to why

also.....if you admit that i study naruto more than you do.....
than that means you admit that i have a better understanding of naruto right?
looks like you contradicted yourself, bud i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[wirm]

Originally posted by: kenshi


Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.


i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.



I thought that about the Lee vs Sasuke fight too at first. It's even trickier in the Sasuke vs Haku fight. From the animation, it sure looks like the sharingan sees things in slow motion. However, in the dialogue, I remember Haku saying to himself "pretty soon he'll be able to predict my movement". And in the Sasuke vs Gaara (partial transformation) Sasuke commented that if his sharingan wasn't predicting Gaara's movement, he'd already be dead.

I don't think that the sharingan copies through prediction. That's just weird. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif I think that the prediction and copying are different aspects of the bloodline limit. Sharingan can exactly copy someone's movement (note the way Sasuke was cheating during the first exam by copying the guy in front of him). I don't think that the sharingan copies just the guy's movements (hand seals). I believe it looks into the chakra distribution/use to get the general gist of the jutsu, and the hand seals are copied incidently (not sure if I worded that right). Anyway, the use of chakra is probably the more important part of the jutsu.

In the Lee vs Sasuke fight, it didn't matter that Sasuke could see what Lee was going to do. He just wasn't fast enough to counter it.



Thinking back, when Zabuza was explaining his first defeat at the hands of Kakashi, I believe he said that Kakashi was using the sharingan to predict Zabuza's movement and stay just a little ahead of him. That's how Kakashi was able to do the seals at exactly the same time as Zabuza. As for moving ahead of him, I believe that was a combination of genjutsu and suggestion.


As for the Itachi fight, I don't think the sharingan can see that far ahead. Catching the entire sequence before hit happened would be too good i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.
kiba is not weak. and naruto did not kick anyone's ass. kiba only lost because naruto farted in his face and the fight was pretty much won through luck. granted, naruto outsmarted kiba in some parts of the fight, but those cases were too insignificant and not damaging enough to put a hurt on kiba. kiba was way faster and stronger than naruto.



Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.
haku underestimated naruto. that's why haku was playing with naruto and sasuke's stupid ass the whole time. if haku had known about naruto's kyubi powers, haku would've finished him off a long time ago. in most, if not all, of naruto's fights, he is underestimated and the opponent loses because of naruto's element of surprise: kyubi chakra. look at orochimaru when he fought naruto in the forest of death, completely beat the hell out of naruto cuz he knows what the kyubi chakra capable of.

[Sanjuro]

YEAH! Thanks Mut@t@ for defending Kiba like that! And I agree with the point on people underestimating the Kyuubi chakra....Look at the fight with Neji

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.

[gem10147]

When ever u talk about shikamaru remember that if you were going to konaha to get a body gaurd would you want a samrt ninja that knows what he is doing like shikamaru or a recless ninja like naruto or neji?

[Inazuma Kami]

-Haku did not underestimate his oppnent or overestimated his own jutsu , i think Haku was just too soft... He was just a Skilled and kind guy ...

-Kiba is faster and stronger than Naruto , his scout abilities are as effective as a byakugan ...
There is no way Naruto can beat Kiba if he weren't that confused.

Sasuke vs ??? , I think Sasuke is just too Self Confident...
That can happen
"Oh i am from the Uchiha Clan there is no way i can lose to this guy ..."
*Bam* , While he thought so higly of him, his opponent kick his face with all he got ... 1 min later Kakashi and Naruto come to rescue Sasuke.
-Sasuke : You are late Sensei
-Kakashi and Naruto : Don't worry i won't let anyone in my team die *With the Nice guy pose* i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

-Sharingan can copy and produce illusion (See Zabuza Mizu Bunshin) the user understand the ennemy's Ninjutsu in a flash .However Sharingan vs Taijutsu is very bad combination (as Lee said) i don''t think Sasuke can Copy "Konoha Senpu" as easily as water clone .

-Kaiten vs Chidori ? Kaiten will win against Chidori because it can deflect everything (Shuriken, kicks , even Naruto/Kyuubi's Punch in the exam...)

-Are the Groups Balanced ? Everyone think about the skill of each genins .. ok that matter but i think the teams got a "role"; N°7 is an amazing Task Force , [Hinata Kiba Shino] an effetive Scout team ,
[Ino-Shika-Chou] They can be the "brain" of any mission (while Shika think about the options Ino and Chou cover him). And do not forget , Shinji Ikari Said "Life is just unfair ..." i think that's true...
There is one way that grade Naruto's genins : Taijutsu , Ninjutsu , Genjutsu , Special , Chakra .

Oh i forgot one thing , Enjoy this Anime i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Inazuma Kami
-Haku did not underestimate his oppnent or overestimated his own jutsu , i think Haku was just too soft... He was just a Skilled and kind guy ...

-Kiba is faster and stronger than Naruto , his scout abilities are as effective as a byakugan ...
There is no way Naruto can beat Kiba if he weren't that confused.

Sasuke vs ??? , I think Sasuke is just too Self Confident...
That can happen
"Oh i am from the Uchiha Clan there is no way i can lose to this guy ..."
*Bam* , While he thought so higly of him, his opponent kick his face with all he got ... 1 min later Kakashi and Naruto come to rescue Sasuke.
-Sasuke : You are late Sensei
-Kakashi and Naruto : Don't worry i won't let anyone in my team die *With the Nice guy pose*

-Sharingan can copy and produce illusion (See Zabuza Mizu Bunshin) the user understand the ennemy's Ninjutsu in a flash .However Sharingan vs Taijutsu is very bad combination (as Lee said) i don''t think Sasuke can Copy "Konoha Senpu" as easily as water clone .

-Kaiten vs Chidori ? Kaiten will win against Chidori because it can deflect everything (Shuriken, kicks , even Naruto/Kyuubi's Punch in the exam...)

-Are the Groups Balanced ? Everyone think about the skill of each genins .. ok that matter but i think the teams got a "role"; N°7 is an amazing Task Force , [Hinata Kiba Shino] an effetive Scout team ,
[Ino-Shika-Chou] They can be the "brain" of any mission (while Shika think about the options Ino and Chou cover him). And do not forget , Shinji Ikari Said "Life is just unfair ..." i think that's true...
There is one way that grade Naruto's genins : Taijutsu , Ninjutsu , Genjutsu , Special , Chakra .

Oh i forgot one thing , Enjoy this Anime

Ok well theres a couple of things thats wrong in here.

1)Kiba's "scout" abilities are FAR FAR away from Byakugan.

2)Sasuke's not very self confident, just daring, like Neji. and like Naruto is now. He'll try to defeat someone, he won't just run away, he was like this from the very first time he fought.

3)Sasuke can't copy Konoha Senpu. The only reason Sasuke's fighting style was the same as Lee's was because he trained for a month to learn it. And when sasuke did the Lion Combo on that one guy in the pre-liminaries, he had to use Taijutsu because of the cursed seal so he just used Lee's advanced Tai that he had already seen. There was no copyage going on there.

4)And Special is Ninjutsu, I bet your thinking of Chidori and Rasengan when you say special.

[Mut]

taijutsu is not bad against the sharingan as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
taijutsu is not bad against the sharingan as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster.

Did you contradict yourself mut@t@?

[gem10147]

you need to remember that naruto also "mimiced" lee's taijutsu like sasuke the suringun cant copy an ability only the movement of seals or else everyone in the uchiha clan would be just as capable and as strong as each other.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Good point I had completely forgot about naruto's Naruto Renda! So theres more proof that Sharingan doesnt copy Taijutsu

[Kagari]

yeah.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


Originally posted by: Mut@t@
taijutsu is not bad against the sharingan as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster.

Did you contradict yourself mut@t@?

i don't get it. you must see a grammatical error in my sentence. however, i don't. the only mistake i see is that i didn't really complete my sentence... i could've added 'as the taijutsu user' at the end but that wouldn't really make that big of a difference. someone point it out my error for me.



Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Good point I had completely forgot about naruto's Naruto Renda! So theres more proof that Sharingan doesnt copy Taijutsu
what? are you kidding me? it specifically says that sharingan can copy the opponent's technique once you see them.

[Knives122]

The Sharingan really doesnt copy anything(pure theory(I know im gonna get bashed for this but I dont care)) it more or less just makes a little video in the persons brain that they can rewind fastforward and pause to analyze what the person does, then the S. user just mimics it, thats all it does IMO, Sasuke just mimiced what lee did(with his own twist) he didnt copy anything

[PossiblE]

Sasuke was copying the guys movements during the written test.

[IamSpazzy]

Sharingan allows one to see how a move is done. It's not like a mental photocopy machine. Think of it this way, you can learn a piece of music by hearing it (hard) or reading it off of sheet music (much easier), But in order to be a technique specialist like Kakashi, you need a very good memory, which by the way, is what I think is what makes Kakashi special, a near photographic memory. So, despite the fact that Sauske was able to copy the guy's pencil movements during the chuunin written exam, I doubt that the strokes have been permanently etched in his mind. For someone with a good short term memory, they're probably able to duplicate it during battle, but forget it after the battle.

Now before anyone flames me saying that I have no proof. They call Kakashi the copy ninja, and not the guy who stole a sharingan eye ninja. Now if the Sharingan allows for an automatic mental dump into memory, Kakashi wouldn't be considered all that special, just a Uchiha wannabe. As for Itachi, he doesn't necessarily need to know a thousand Jitsu's to be more powerful than Kakashi. He could just know a handful of really powerful jitsus, be faster, stronger, have more stamina and more chakra. Jitsu count isn't all that determines how storng a ninja is, despite what Orochimaru thinks.

As for Taijitsu and Sharingan. The Sharingan doesn't provide any benefit in terms of seeing how taijitsu works because Taijtisu is purely physical, which means that what you see is what you get (no hand seals, no molding of chakra). And while you know how the move works, you can't do it because you're phyically not capable of pushing yourself to those limits. For instance, I can see the guys in the olympics run a sub 10 second 100 meter race. But I still can't do it.

[Assertn]

nice to see that people are with me on this whole "kiba not being weak" argument

watch the episode where sharingan is explained for the first time
its said that it can analyze all forms of ninjutsu, genjutsu, AND taijutsu

im also pretty sure that the sharingan does in fact etch the jutsu into the person's mind, if they so choose. but how effecient it is at storing the info all depends on the level of the sharingan. Sasuke's prolly sucks at copying, therefore he hasnt copied very many jutsus. But for kakashi to know over 1000 jutsus.....he'd have to have a pretty damn photographic memory.

everyone in the show says that the sharingan allows the user to copy jutsus......this leads me to believe that the secret to kakashi having so many techniques is the sharingan, not his memory

[Terracosmo]

Kiba isn't weak.
And Neji is the strongest of all, unless Naruto uses his Kyuubi plot device powers. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Don't argue with facts kiddies. ^_^

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


Originally posted by: Mut@t@
taijutsu is not bad against the sharingan as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster.

Did you contradict yourself mut@t@?

i don't get it. you must see a grammatical error in my sentence. however, i don't. the only mistake i see is that i didn't really complete my sentence... i could've added 'as the taijutsu user' at the end but that wouldn't really make that big of a difference. someone point it out my error for me.



Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
Good point I had completely forgot about naruto's Naruto Renda! So theres more proof that Sharingan doesnt copy Taijutsu
what? are you kidding me? it specifically says that sharingan can copy the opponent's technique once you see them.

Well I may be crazy but I think when you said that what you meant was: SHARINGAN is not bad against Taijutsu as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster. That's just what I think you meant though.

[Sanjuro]

I'd agree with Kakashi being special, even among Sharingan users, because remember everyone was calling him a Genius, even before he got the Sharingan (which he somehow acquired over the years? I assume we'll learn more about it later) whenever they takl about his past

[gem10147]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
nice to see that people are with me on this whole "kiba not being weak" argument

watch the episode where sharingan is explained for the first time
its said that it can analyze all forms of ninjutsu, genjutsu, AND taijutsu

im also pretty sure that the sharingan does in fact etch the jutsu into the person's mind, if they so choose. but how effecient it is at storing the info all depends on the level of the sharingan. Sasuke's prolly sucks at copying, therefore he hasnt copied very many jutsus. But for kakashi to know over 1000 jutsus.....he'd have to have a pretty damn photographic memory.

everyone in the show says that the sharingan allows the user to copy jutsus......this leads me to believe that the secret to kakashi having so many techniques is the sharingan, not his memory

sasuke hasnt mastered his sharingan yet, his has only 2 dots, (this is pure opinion) those two dot can give him the battle insight that he used against haku to tell whatmirror he {or she i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif}was in, once he master his shiringan and gains that third dot that we see in kakashi's and Itachi's eye then he can no only see what his opponent will do but also be able to mimic it too.

[Assertn]

well yeah.....i know......thats why i said "sasuke's prolly sucks at copying" i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[wirm]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.




I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

[Assertn]

they never specifically said that gentle fist is better than regular taijutsu.....they just said that one inflicts external damage and bones while the other inflicts internal damage.

you could technically kill a man either way, and therefore to say which one is a deadlier move, is sorta irrelevant

[micky]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the characters backgrounds when discussing groups.

Hinata, Shino & Kiba are all from ninja clans.

Shikamaru, Ino & Choujii all have ninja fathers (Ino's mother owns a flower shop. Shikamaru's mother seems to be a housewife however they may be from ninja clans but it dosn't seem so).

Naruto, Sasuke & Sakura all seem to be have troubled/different pasts (Naruto has no parents with theories flying who they could be + the whole 'monster fox' aspect. Sasuke's whole clan was killed by his brother. Sakura seems to be the only ninja [bar Naruto] who has no relations to another ninja -> we havn't seen her father or mother but know their there indicating they arn't actually ninjas).

There isn't enough information about Gai's group to hypothesise but Rock Lee's uselessness and Neji's branch family (could be viewed as aspiration to break boundries) are a common ground. No idea about Tenten.

Obviously some of this overlaps with the ninja clans also having ninja familes, Sasuke being from a ninja clan. There does seem to be common ground between these groups though and the most out of place person of all seems to be Sakura who most people agree is utterly useless anyway. Just a small observation.

[Natural Cause]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
I think the only unbalance was in the Naruto group... because it has the "X" factoy in Naruto... only Iruka sensei knew how dedicated Naruto was... so they have the strongest group of all... Sakura can just be discarded... the other two can take on anyone.... Maybe it was balanced through their personalities

The Rock Lee group doesnt factor here since they are older...


But there certainly was some thought behind the selection of the groups... remember Tsunade studying the 3rd's records of the groups

Iruka didnt have any input on the groups. the decision was made by the 3rd if u remember.

[Natural Cause]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro
Hang on a sec....Chouji is the top fighter on that team...and ino is the brains!?? For fighters, how could you not say Kiba? I wouold say Shino is closer to being the brains on that team than hinata. I guess I can accept Chouji being the fighter (even though he sucks ass) but Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

SINO IS SLACK HE DIDN:T TRY HE WAS BOTTOM OF THE CLASS WITH NARUTO ONLY HIS SENSAI FIGURED OUT HOW SMART HE WAS WHEN HE BEGAN TRAINING.

seriously theres some dumb people in this forum, i hardly even pay attention fo naruto as theres better anime series around yet i STILL know more than most of you.

[micky]

Originally posted by: Natural Cause


Originally posted by: Sanjuro
Hang on a sec....Chouji is the top fighter on that team...and ino is the brains!?? For fighters, how could you not say Kiba? I wouold say Shino is closer to being the brains on that team than hinata. I guess I can accept Chouji being the fighter (even though he sucks ass) but Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

SINO IS SLACK HE DIDN:T TRY HE WAS BOTTOM OF THE CLASS WITH NARUTO ONLY HIS SENSAI FIGURED OUT HOW SMART HE WAS WHEN HE BEGAN TRAINING.

seriously theres some dumb people in this forum, i hardly even pay attention fo naruto as theres better anime series around yet i STILL know more than most of you.

You've mistaken Shino with Shikamaru

[Natural Cause]

Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

the only people who really know hes brany are his sensai and kakashi

and yes i ment to type shikamaru but im getting fustrated with the no0bs in here, atleast its not as bad as anbu forums

[wirm]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
they never specifically said that gentle fist is better than regular taijutsu.....they just said that one inflicts external damage and bones while the other inflicts internal damage.

you could technically kill a man either way, and therefore to say which one is a deadlier move, is sorta irrelevant

oh of course.

But when introducing the jyuuken, Rock Lee said it was Konoha's strongest hand-to-hand combat style. Also, Lee has said on multiple occaisions that he couldn't beat Neji. He said (he was probably wrong) that Konoha's strongest genin was Neji.

Kakashi also put in something along the lines of "there's no way to train your internal organs. If you get hit no matter how tough you are it will be fatal."

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: wirm


Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.




I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

Posted by wirm


3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

http://www.narutoinfo.com/index.php?section=Stats&content=Ninja%20Fighting%2 0Stats

That's a link to a site that has pictures from the official book out now of Naruto characters and their stats. It says lee has 4/5 for taijutsu but Neji has 3.5 these figures were taken during the START of the chuunin exam. But this doesn't affect lee or Neji since we have no information of them improving since then.

Lee also hs the highest Taijutsu out of all of the 12 konoha gennins.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor

At that site it also says that Neji has an intelligence of 2.5 with Sasuke having 2. So I was right about them being close in intelligence but I was wrong when I said he had higher intelligence.

[Sanjuro]

Originally posted by: Natural Cause


Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

the only people who really know hes brany are his sensai and kakashi

and yes i ment to type shikamaru but im getting fustrated with the no0bs in here, atleast its not as bad as anbu forums

Yo fuck you man. Im so tired of assholes looking down on other ppl and callin them noob and all that shit (even tho i have more posts that u) just because they made a fuckin mistake. I was talking about the shikamaru that we know now. Obviously there was an error in communication somewhere. Bitch

EDIT: I know that this was a pretty harsh and...not nice post, and i normally try not to get personal so...sorry to everybody else (if you were offended or whatever)

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro


Originally posted by: Natural Cause


Shikamaru is obviously the brains, even if ino is the "leader"

the only people who really know hes brany are his sensai and kakashi

and yes i ment to type shikamaru but im getting fustrated with the no0bs in here, atleast its not as bad as anbu forums

Yo fuck you man. Im so tired of assholes looking down on other ppl and callin them noob and all that shit (even tho i have more posts that u) just because they made a fuckin mistake. I was talking about the shikamaru that we know now. Obviously there was an error in communication somewhere. Bitch

EDIT: I know that this was a pretty harsh and...not nice post, and i normally try not to get personal so...sorry to everybody else (if you were offended or whatever)

No I think he deserved it.

[wirm]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


Originally posted by: wirm


Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.




I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

Posted by wirm


3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

http://www.narutoinfo.com/index.php?section=Stats&content=Ninja%20Fighting%2 0Stats

That's a link to a site that has pictures from the official book out now of Naruto characters and their stats. It says lee has 4/5 for taijutsu but Neji has 3.5 these figures were taken during the START of the chuunin exam. But this doesn't affect lee or Neji since we have no information of them improving since then.

Lee also hs the highest Taijutsu out of all of the 12 konoha gennins.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor

At that site it also says that Neji has an intelligence of 2.5 with Sasuke having 2. So I was right about them being close in intelligence but I was wrong when I said he had higher intelligence.




Look at that huge quote, haha


Anyway, I don't look at web sites for stats. Unless the web site is run by the guy who writes Naruto or his company, then those stats are the opinion of the person who writes them.

I am more than willing to consider everyone's opinion. But if those opinions are not backed up by something said or mentioned in the anime, then that is all it will remain. An opinion.

However, I can back up my opinions with the anime. And if there's something I'm unsure of, I either shut up, or say that I'm not sure. If you can show me any part in the anime that backs up the statistics you quoted, I will be a happy convert. But if you can't, then that person's opinion will not influence my opinion.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Look at that huge quote, haha


Anyway, I don't look at web sites for stats. Unless the web site is run by the guy who writes Naruto or his company, then those stats are the opinion of the person who writes them.

I am more than willing to consider everyone's opinion. But if those opinions are not backed up by something said or mentioned in the anime, then that is all it will remain. An opinion.

However, I can back up my opinions with the anime. And if there's something I'm unsure of, I either shut up, or say that I'm not sure. If you can show me any part in the anime that backs up the statistics you quoted, I will be a happy convert. But if you can't, then that person's opinion will not influence my opinion.

Ok well in the anime when they first meet Kabuto his card that shows lee's stats also has it saying that he high tai and kabuto also says that Lee's tai greatly improved this past year. So there ya go and there cards information is identical to the information given on the site.

Edit:i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Assertn]

it says the stats come from the "official naruto character data book" that is available for purchase.
and i'd believe its official, since i know for a fact that those types of graphs do exist for all the characters, and you can see some of them in the naruto gcn games as well as in the anime itself

i think the point sanjuro was trying to make was that shikamaru's intelligence wasnt a factor in deciding the teams, nor was it for many of the missions they went on. Ino acted as the brains and leader of their team for the most part, simply because they had no idea how smart shikamaru was, and shika didnt really care to be the leader anyway. But Ino DOES come to the realization that shikamaru's strategic skills have helped them countless times when she sees him fight temari.

[Munsu]

Originally posted by: Natural Cause


Originally posted by: Budweineken
I think the only unbalance was in the Naruto group... because it has the "X" factoy in Naruto... only Iruka sensei knew how dedicated Naruto was... so they have the strongest group of all... Sakura can just be discarded... the other two can take on anyone.... Maybe it was balanced through their personalities

The Rock Lee group doesnt factor here since they are older...


But there certainly was some thought behind the selection of the groups... remember Tsunade studying the 3rd's records of the groups

Iruka didnt have any input on the groups. the decision was made by the 3rd if u remember.

I never said Iruka had a say in the groups... I just said that he was the only person at the time that knew Naruto well enough to know how good he might become...

Edit: you can add yourself there to your n00b list and to your dumb people list...

[Dankenhaus]

Those stats are official from Kishimoto himself. I have the stat book and finally found the website that translated them. End of discussion refer to stat book for info.

[Knives122]

Obviously its apparent that over that year they took off to train, Gai trained them in the specific areas that they were talented in, Thats why Lee can do the lotus and has high Taijutsu. Dont know what the other two did but, Lee can beat Neji (maybe with out his speed) plus, Lee is a master at it, and has numerous styles. So IMO Lee is the best ninja

Now bring on the flaming i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[PossiblE]

I did not read all the previous posts, but that last post is just wrong. As of now, Sasuke could probably beat Lee. Since he has the same speed as Lee with no weights, Sasuke could stop all of his moves with the Sharingan.

[Sanjuro]

Originally posted by: Knives122
Obviously its apparent that over that year they took off to train, Gai trained them in the specific areas that they were talented in, Thats why Lee can do the lotus and has high Taijutsu. Dont know what the other two did but, Lee can beat Neji (maybe with out his speed) plus, Lee is a master at it, and has numerous styles. So IMO Lee is the best ninja

Now bring on the flaming

s w e e t

go Lee

[Inazuma Kami]

Originally posted by: PossiblE
Sasuke could stop all of his moves with the Sharingan.


I think Sharingan can't read/copy pure Taijutsu movements (Sasuke Vs Lee fight before the chuunin exam)

However


Originally posted by: Knives112
Lee is the best ninja

Nothing to add ....

[Mut]

wtf? you guys are now refusing accept the truth cuz your precious taijutsu master, lee, is a total gimp now who is probably going to die from that operation.

sharingan CAN read/copy all type of taijutsu movements (obviously copying something like neji's 64's hit combo is pointless cuz you can't see and close the chakra holes and i don't even know if it can be copied). Zabuza and sasuke said that it can read and beat all genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu and also copy them. don't ignore the facts when they've been stated already.

[Munsu]

Lee is just a cross-eyed freak... he might become a good "ninja" but not in his lifetime will he become the best... no matter how much he tries... no matter how much he trains... it is just an impossibility for him.... There are simply too many people with actual talent to surpass... and between those that have talent i'm pretty sure that there are many that work very hard so that extra effort that Lee puts in might become meaningless when compared with some of the others...

Yeah Lee owned Sasuke before the exam... but guess what, Sasuke improved tremendously... and guess what also, Lee is crippled.. even if the operation is successful he has a lot of catching up to do since even Sasuke was surpassing him in his speciallity....

And the problem with their first fight was not that Sasuke could not read or predict Lee's movement... the problem was that Lee was just too fast for Sasuke to react even though he knew it was coming... but the gap in speed is no longer there since the training for the fight in the tournament...


This is not a bash against Lee since i dont hate him... in fact i like him somewhat... but im not blind to see that he has ways to go before becoming the "best"... and btw he never could and never will be able to beat Neji

[DB_Hunter]

Sasuke hasn't surpassed Lee in taijutsu... all Lee needs to do is open even one gate and he will be faster than Sasuke. Also, Sasuke seems to tire more easily at that speed than Lee, and also that Lee knows how to utilise that speed in terms of combos, such as the Lotus. Perhaps Sasuke will develop different combo's in the future to combat them.

[Munsu]

You are right about the gates... but let see how many of them can he open after the operation (if it's successful)... and the way to open the gates seem to be able to be copied... if not mistaken Kakashi was able to copy them with his sharingan although I dont know at the moment...

[Assertn]

haha, why are you guys arguing sasuke vs lee when knives was talking about NEJI vs lee??

and no, lee cant beat neji with his weights on......lee and gai specifically said that the ura renge was the secret to beating neji

[Munsu]

I was replying to all... Knives and Inazuma...

[Knives122]

ok, first where did lee vs. sasuke come in to what I was talking about, Like assertn said I was talking about Lee being able to beat Neji

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
Lee is just a cross-eyed freak... he might become a good "ninja" but not in his lifetime will he become the best... no matter how much he tries... no matter how much he trains... it is just an impossibility for him.... There are simply too many people with actual talent to surpass... and between those that have talent i'm pretty sure that there are many that work very hard so that extra effort that Lee puts in might become meaningless when compared with some of the others...

Yeah Lee owned Sasuke before the exam... but guess what, Sasuke improved tremendously... and guess what also, Lee is crippled.. even if the operation is successful he has a lot of catching up to do since even Sasuke was surpassing him in his speciallity....

And the problem with their first fight was not that Sasuke could not read or predict Lee's movement... the problem was that Lee was just too fast for Sasuke to react even though he knew it was coming... but the gap in speed is no longer there since the training for the fight in the tournament...


This is not a bash against Lee since i dont hate him... in fact i like him somewhat... but im not blind to see that he has ways to go before becoming the "best"... and btw he never could and never will be able to beat Neji

Two words.....Maito Gai! He is a dropout just like lee and he is almost equal with Kakashi the genius.

[Munsu]

One thing is a dropout and another thing is not to have talent at all (other than hand to hand)... I'm pretty sure that Gai is able to perform jutsus

Well i was replying to people that make Lee to be the "best" and is Gai the best? no... and is Kakashi the best? no....

I was just making a point on why he wont become the best... not of why he is no good....

And i can assure you that when Sasuke grows up he will be better than Kakashi... well i think so at least

And knives... the Sasuke part was not for you it was for Inazuma... I just didnt want to go into detail on why Lee cant beat Neji... i'll leave that for someone else so dont bother discussing that with me...

[Knives122]

Oh well sorry then, and of course Gai can do jutsus he dispelled that sleeping thing during the chuunin exam

[KaneInferno]

i thought this topic was about party balance...

i believe all the teams except the Ino,Shikamaru,Chouji team are equal.
except for shikamaru, that team sucks.

[Inazuma Kami]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu


Two words.....Maito Gai! He is a dropout just like lee and he is almost equal with Kakashi the genius.[/quote]

True.But can M.Gai keep up with ANY Sharingan user. ?