The Gap Between Genin And Jounin [Archive]

Mon, 05-31-2004, 01:44 AM

There isn't one.

Well, sort of.

Here we go. The reasons why there is not a significant gap between the elite rookie Genin main characters and the Jounins we've seen.

Sasuke:

There are several power showing for Sasuke that put him at a very high chakra level. First off, he freakin' tooled on six Mizubunshin clones of Zabuza (1/10th Jounin power each) effortlessly. This is the beginning of the series and already after the brief tree-training (a FAR smaller training period than the later one he undergoes in the Chuunin Arc) he is able to effortlessly smoke six clones. Eariler, ONE had been stomping him. In a week's worth of training Sasuke's chakra level got multiple times higher, putting him at a solid 1/5th Zabuza powerlevel, IMO.

Then, of course, we have the Haku fight. Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable. Sasuke was defeating his Bloodline Limit with the Sharingan - slowly, of course, and not in a way that would be useful in a fight. But, again, this is Sasuke in the second-weakest portrayal he'll have in the series, and he's learning to defeat Jounin level techniques. In a few minutes' time, Sasuke went from being totally owned by Haku's Bloodline Limit to the point where his insight was catching up to Haku, a kid who's got skills and power that surpass Jounin level.

Sasuke tricked Orochimaru in battle. Sure, his techniques were pitifully ineffective, but Oro wasn't faking the look of surprise when his ass exploded. So we have cleverness that at least made an EFFORT against a Sannin. Yes, Oro wasn't trying. Point is, he WAS going to kill Sasuke if he found him to be unsuitable, and Sasuke proved himself worthy. This is a decent showing.

Sasuke smokes Yoroi in one combo after being chakra drained for several minutes. Above average Genin level? You bet.

Sasuke is shown to have half the Chakra of Kakashi when he isn't using the Seal (during the flashbacks to the training where he learned Chidori). With the Seal, he was able to muster 75% of Kakashi's level (3 Chidoris in one day). That he mastered a Jounin level technique is also a nice feat.

Sasuke smoked a non-transformed Gaara. Badly. He also harmed the partially transformed Gaara. This, IMO, puts him at Jounin level, easily. I'll do Gaara in a bit.

Naruto:

I think it's pretty obvious why Naruto's Jounin level: he has the fucking Kyuubi stuck in him. Whenever he uses it he trashes Jounin level beings. He tosses Haku, BADLY. Haku is Jounin level. He uses a freakin' Hokage level Kuchiyose (or however you spell it). He broke through SHUKAKU's defenses to attack the sleeping Gaara. There's another piece of evidence I'd add here, but that's a spoiler. Anyway, yeah. Naruto has waaay above Jounin level chakra.

Sakura:

Just kidding. She's weak as hell.

Rock Lee:

Tossed the non-transformed Gaara around like a ragdoll. Yes, he lost. Losses do not mean that the opponent 100% outclasses you. In fact, Gaara barely outclasses Lee at all.

He can open the Celestial Gates. Again, don't feel the need to explain why an ability that moves you to Hokage level once you master it is a Jounin level technique when partially accessed.

Gaara:

Obvious, again. He has a fuckin' demon in his body that he draws power from and he's the child of a Kage.

I think, though I am not sure, that Yashamaru was a Hidden Sand Jounin. Gaara murdered her/him effortlessly - as a child.

Baki fears Gaara. Indirectly, we can assume that Kazekage feared Gaara as well.

Jounins:

The position of Jounin has never been linked to having a huge amount of Chakra or a huge amount of ninja fighting skill. In fact, the OPPOSITE associations have been made: I'd elaborate but I don't believe the results of the Chuunin Exam have been released in the anime, have they?

I'll say this: high rank ninjas are not elected for their fighting prowess. So why is there this huge assumption that random Jounin #47 would whoop a bunch of Genin's asses? I feel that pretty much any Jounin who isn't an elite level like Kakashi would get defeated in a fight by heavy hitters like Sasuke, Gaara, Neji, Lee, or Naruto. Again, I'd add more examples but they're spoilers. Hell, I'd give some of them even odds or better against Kakashi-sensei.

So, yeah. I spent a bit too much time on this.

What do you think? Coherent? Logical? Factually based?

Krbadass

Mon, 05-31-2004, 01:59 AM

Ok man fact is genin is no where near jounin. Sasuke is no where near jounin, neither is naruto. It's not all power and jutsu. While you made a solid arguement about it the fact is that the show wouldn't work if you were right.

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:07 AM

Ok man fact is genin is no where near jounin.

What a solid rebuttal.

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

It's not all power and jutsu.

Whoa, welcome to my point! While the abovementioned are Jounin level in Chakra and fightning skill, they are not Jounin level in other areas, for instance leadership skill and teaching ability. However, the people of this forum apparently have it in their minds that a Jounin could stomp the Genins of the series effortlessly. Which is, as I showed, false.

I'm talking about fighting power and skill here, not who's better at teaching upcoming ninja classes. Namely, I was trying to make the point that the gaps between Genin and the higher Ninja ranks are not based on power or fighting skill. I could easily demonstrate this but it would again be a spoiler.

The point of this is, really, to show that it ISN'T about power. I did so by demonstrating that there is not a significant power gap between the ninja ranks. Simple.

While you made a solid arguement about it the fact is that the show wouldn't work if you were right.

Riiiiiiiight.

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Jessper

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:16 AM

So really powerful/talented gennin beating one Jounin.

I like this comment "Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable." How is that inarguable? so you can make your point? Sure his bloodlimit owns and could probably own Jounins but that doesn't make him one.

So Gaara's demon can kill Jounins, I still don't see your point.

All I get from your post is that in this series the main focus includes Genins that are extraordinary and powerful and should go to at least the next level of ninja at this point in time.

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:22 AM

I like this comment "Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable." How is that inarguable? so you can make your point? Sure his bloodlimit owns and could probably own Jounins but that doesn't make him one.

Well, when Kakashi-sensei says "Haku is stronger than me", and Zabuza says "Haku is stronger than me" I consider it a pretty much open and shut case. You are free to debate the issue, however.

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

So Gaara's demon can kill Jounins, I still don't see your point.

Oh, please. Gaara is powered by a superpowerful demonic force capable of matching and defeating Hokage level summons. This demonic being's chakra powers Gaara. Yet you don't see my point?

Whose fault is that?

All I get from your post is that in this series the main focus includes Genins that are extraordinary and powerful and should go to at least the next level of ninja at this point in time.

Hm.

The rank you have is not tied to your power or chakra, and thus the skill and power of the rookie Genin doesn't factor into promotion decisions. However, in a straightup fight a notable Genin can pull even with exceptional Jounins.

EDIT: Edited for spelling and to remove an insult that I felt was gratutious on second reading.

Pyron

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:21 AM

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:39 AM

umm..what i see here is a thread made not to get other peoples' opinion, but a thread to show everyone that Y the Alien is "right". sure with your arguements you maybe or may not be right with a lot of these things but why make this thread if your not open to what others have to say?

Open as in accepting their opinions without question? No, doubtful. Open as in considering them? Of course. Feel free to raise objections, including the hole in this theory that is brought up later in the manga (through PM).

I supppose this was done to prove a point. But I hardly think this is infalliable.

anyways, against elite Jounins i'd say Haku would have no chance. if they actually wanted to finish off Haku it would probably be done quickly.

Now see, I know we could go through all that crap about everyone having the right to their opinion, blahblahwhatever etc...

But if you are just going to post assertions, don't bother.

Anyway, why do you think this? Haku displayed extraordinary ability and skill, the onehanded seals in particular. The only other character who I can think of who was implied to be using one handed seals was Itachi (his right hand was full while he was doing the seals off screen to attack Kakashi). Haku took a seriously powerful attack from Kyuubi Naruto and survived. I don't think he's a walk in the park for anyone.

however if Haku manages to pull off that bloodline technique against an elite Jounin, i have no idea how they would deal with that..

Probably by dying.

and remember, it wasn't actually Naruto that broke though Shukaku's D...it was the frog boss(i forgot his name) who cut his arm. and yes..with the help of Naruto they were able to transform into a form of Kyuubi to grab Shukaku so that Naruto could punch Gaara..

Maybe I'm misremembering. Didn't Shukaku's skin transform into sand that trapped Naruto in place, and he forced through to get the headbutt in?

chambers

Mon, 05-31-2004, 06:57 AM

no way theres FAR too much heresay in your post for it to be anywhere near factual, although i can see where your coming from i have to say your wrong.

ok point one, sasuke hit oro and surprised him. gai hit kisame but i dont really think gai could beat him. its a chance thats all it is. lucky could be another word. everyone can be surprised. your right oro WASNT trying at all.being able to hit a sannin doesnt mean your incredibley strong, it means you can surprise him.

second, half or even 75% of 1 million billion zillion is a lot less. lets take it for granted that the chidori uses a set amount of chakra (wich i dont believe is true anyway but...) then if kakshi can do it twice as much as sasuke he has double the chakra. we must assume chidori uses a hell of a lot of chakra so thats still a huge gap. also stregnth doesnt neccasarily mean lots of chakra, otherwise naruto would have been crowed hokage at birth.

third point haku is NOT a jounin. i cant stress this enough. he was beaten by sasuke, a gennin. we CLEARLY see in the training that kakashi is MILES stronger than sasuke. sasuke beats haku wich means that kakshi would have murdered him. i dont care if he says it he was clearly wrong.

fourth for both lee and sasuke, non-trasformed gaara is clearly a weakling if you have the speed to get past his defense. he cant do NOTHING after that. also i dont think there ARE jounin level techniques such as summon, chidori and the gates. thye are just moves that are more easily learnt by more accomplishied ninja's, just becasue they learn them doesnt mean they are jounin level.

kage_bunshin

Mon, 05-31-2004, 07:59 AM

haku is jounin level. Remember Zabuza once said haku was stronger than himself

Kurapica

Mon, 05-31-2004, 08:12 AM

I've got something to add about Haku. Haku strenght is severly being underestimated. Kakashi and Zabuza both say that he is above their level. When he fought Naruto and Sasuke with the ice mirrors, he wasn't even fighting them with the intent to kill. Finally, naruto needed to let the nine tails take over control in order to end Haku's jutsu.
Besides wouldn't Haku be extremely powerfull if he was using poisonous needles to attack his enemy. See how accuratly he was able to put Zabuza in a near-death state. With poisonous needles, an intent to kill, his ability to perform one hand seals and the ice mirrors justsu, Haku would be one of the strongest characters seen yet.

Shadow-wolf

Mon, 05-31-2004, 08:15 AM

For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin. Whereas more and more "Genin" are standing out because they can perform these same techniques. It may have something to do progression, evolution and just basic determination. But also remember that technique alone does not distingush the difference. I believe experience is far more important. Its not what you can do, but how you do it.

Pyron

Mon, 05-31-2004, 08:32 AM

anyways, it doesn't matter...Haku is dead. He'd probably be prettty strong if he didn't die but what's done is done

Mon, 05-31-2004, 08:48 AM

I agree with Shadow-Wolf, I think you are just saying that some techniques are Jounin level are only for Jounins but Genins can perform it as well. Didn't you ever think that some of the Jounin teachers would teach their Genins their techniques? Like the Chidori (Kakashi-Sasuke) or the Gate Openings (Gai-Lee).

And you also say that Naruto IS a Jounin just because he has the Kyubi inside him. Yes, its true that the Kyubi has so much chakra within it but you have to remember, Naruto can't control its complete power yet. And controlling the Kyubi's chakra still wouldn't make Naruto a Jounin just yet. Let me refresh your memory, the 4th Hokage went up against the Kyubi at its FULL POWER and he defeated it (at the cost of his own life but he still took down the most powerful demon ever). So you can't just go saying that oh look, Naruto has the Kyubi so he is the most powerful ninja ever. It is his dream to become one but with or without the Kyubi, he has to work hard to become a Jounin and then on, Hokage.

SilentSnake

Mon, 05-31-2004, 09:29 AM

Don't know, if someone noticed that before...

but didn't sasuke use chidori 4 times in one day ??

ep 83 - 2 holes in the rock, sasuke's doing chidori for the third time, end of scene...

sasuke hears about itachi and naruto, finding 'em and doing chidori for the 4th time on itachi in one day... (and has his hand "burned" by chidori, but after all he managed to do it normally...)

GLS

Mon, 05-31-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by: Shadow-wolf
For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin. Whereas more and more "Genin" are standing out because they can perform these same techniques. It may have something to do progression, evolution and just basic determination. But also remember that technique alone does not distingush the difference. I believe experience is far more important. Its not what you can do, but how you do it.

Yeah thats true you could be the most powerful person in the world and go up agaisnt the weakest who has won alot(but is still weak) but has experience under his belt, while the strong one(fighting for the first time) fights the weak one and loses. Experience is more important than power b/c it lets you understand the battle and it lets you makes stategies off that experience

Note: This is KNIVES122 channeling this message through the account of GAARALOVESSAND.

Stoopider

Mon, 05-31-2004, 10:03 AM

There is a gap between Gennin and Jounnins.

Jounnins have lots more experience and can be more trusted to handle more difficult missions. Thus, they should be theoretically better at fighting and so what not.

But to their fighting extent, and their chakra ammount, Jounnins are/should have more. One thing we kinda left out, the gennins we are talking about like Naruto, Gaara, Sasuke, and the rest are more Giftedthan the others.

The typical ninja's we'd find that fit into the gennin, Chunnin, Jounnin scheme would be like the rest that did badly at the chunnin exams. If you look back, most of the peeps there taking the chunnin exams are in their teens or twenties. I would think those are the typical ninja's.

And I would definitely think Jounnin's are meant more for the really talented one's. If you look at one of the older threads, some like Kakashi and Gai completed their chunnin exams when they were 6(?). Sorry. Couldn't find the link.

Chunnin's and gennins should be the norm.

SofaKing

Mon, 05-31-2004, 10:37 AM

(in reply to the first post)

That's a pretty illogical argument. It's full of guesses on your part that aren't justified, examples where a
gennin did little more than catch a jounin off guard for an instant (even high level ninjas aren't infalible), and
half-arguments.

For example:

"Sasuke is shown to have half the Chakra of Kakashi when he isn't using the Seal (during the flashbacks to the training where he learned Chidori). With the Seal, he was able to muster 75% of Kakashi's level (3 Chidoris in one day). That he mastered a Jounin level technique is also a nice feat."

Sasuke may be able to do the Chidori almost as many times as Kakashi, but what makes you think that his
is anywhere near as strong as Kakashi's?

Mon, 05-31-2004, 12:06 PM

ok what you have to remember is Sasuke, Naruto, Rock Lee, Garra etc are all GENIUSES. compared to other genin theyre way above the rest, but theyre not jounin level at all. you also have to remember there are gifted jounin like Kakashi, who became a chunnin at what 6? garra and naruto both have demons that empower them, but for naruto to get that power he needs to be in a dire situation. a jounin would beat him before he has the time to call upon the demon's power. none of your examples are genin vs jounin except for naruto vs haku. but that was kyubi that beat haku not naruto. until we see a genin beat a jounin theres still a huge gap between them.

chambers

Mon, 05-31-2004, 12:13 PM

ithink we can scrath the need for a dire situation off the list now, i reckon hes used to the feeling now so can call it up almost anytime.

Mon, 05-31-2004, 12:16 PM

the point is he still needs to call upon kyubi's chakra, a jounin like kakashi could kick his ass before he could.

njdevs95

Mon, 05-31-2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by: SilentSnake
Don't know, if someone noticed that before...

but didn't sasuke use chidori 4 times in one day ??

ep 83 - 2 holes in the rock, sasuke's doing chidori for the third time, end of scene...

sasuke hears about itachi and naruto, finding 'em and doing chidori for the 4th time on itachi in one day... (and has his hand "burned" by chidori, but after all he managed to do it normally...)

No he tried to do it 3 times in a day but failed. The first 2 were a flashback of his training before that day. Then he did it once in the stadium against the gaara ball, he did it once in the forest and then he tried to do a third one in the forest but it fizzled out and he became as useless as sakura.

Also in response to the first post if catching a jounin off guard makes one almost as powerful or as powerful then the eraser is a jounin.....remember when naruto put the eraser in the door and it hit kakashi the first day they met.......yeah buddy that eraser is a bad ass mofo.

Jessper

Mon, 05-31-2004, 01:40 PM

All your examples are of the best genin, yes Naruto's Chakra can overwhelm a jounin obviously yes lee's speed may be faster than a chuunin(maybe a regular jounin but we havn't seen that yet IIRC) and Haku has a bloodlimit power that is extremly powerful.

Yes Genin(the exceptional ones we have seen) may equal a jounin in one point but not in all of them so they arn't really at jounin level but most of them should be chuunin I think.

If your agruement was that all Jounins don't surpass all Genins in every way shape and form then yes I agree with you but I don't think a normal genin would stand a second vs a normal jounin.

PSJ

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:32 PM

well i guess the reason why the genin are stronger or as strong as jounin in some areas is because hmm ehm they are MAIN CHARACTERS, or significant to the story. how fun would it be if all characters were on sakura level which is an average genin.

SilentSnake

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by: njdevs95

Originally posted by: SilentSnake
Don't know, if someone noticed that before...

but didn't sasuke use chidori 4 times in one day ??

ep 83 - 2 holes in the rock, sasuke's doing chidori for the third time, end of scene...

sasuke hears about itachi and naruto, finding 'em and doing chidori for the 4th time on itachi in one day... (and has his hand "burned" by chidori, but after all he managed to do it normally...)

No he tried to do it 3 times in a day but failed. The first 2 were a flashback of his training before that day. Then he did it once in the stadium against the gaara ball, he did it once in the forest and then he tried to do a third one in the forest but it fizzled out and he became as useless as sakura.

Also in response to the first post if catching a jounin off guard makes one almost as powerful or as powerful then the eraser is a jounin.....remember when naruto put the eraser in the door and it hit kakashi the first day they met.......yeah buddy that eraser is a bad ass mofo.

I clearly said in ep 83, u totally messed up things i'm afraid...

EDIT: I don't agree that sakura's average genin !!

it's insulting every average genin i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

gokudagreat

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:50 PM

You people are all in denial... You like the badass characters like Kakashi and Itachi and you REFUSE to believe that anyone could be stronger than they are, and make any argument to prove that Naruto and Sasuke are just no where near there level

Well guess what, no matter how weak they are in comparison to Itachi now, THEY WILL BE STRONGER THAN HIM, GET THE FUCK OVER IT

Jeez

PSJ

Mon, 05-31-2004, 02:59 PM

well then name an average genin, hmm well kiba, shino, sakura, ino, hinata, chouji, tenten. thats average then you got the strong ones that got one or another abiltity as strong as a jounin, naruto, shikamaru, sasuke, neji, rock lee. of course i only counted konoha nins.

Mut

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:17 PM

i'll bet that naruto or gaara (the strongest genins we've seen so far) would get their shit kicked in by a jounin... say... jiraiya. yep, there is a huge gap between genins and jounins. case closed.

btw, jiraiya is a jounin. sannin or sennin is not a rank.

Krbadass

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:20 PM

Kakashi would kick the shit out of gaara or naruto.. case also closed

SilentSnake

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:24 PM

well, that was meant to be joke as I hate sakura (yes, i know, i'm not original on this one i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif ).

but seriously, I think she's too physicaly weak AND mentally to be average genin right now.

I think U would agree that Chouji for example is average genin, or Tenten, even Kiba, but... nahh... he's one of the stronger ones.

I believe she's weaker than those 2, after all, right now...

she can be pretty powerful some day, but she's not strong today and won't be strong tomorrow...

as for some genins being stronger than jounin, hell... they're just ranks, they mean nothing in fact, genin CAN be stronger than a jounin, but it depends on many many things...

NewGuyinTown

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by: SilentSnake
well, that was meant to be joke as I hate sakura (yes, i know, i'm not original on this one i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif ).

but seriously, I think she's too physicaly weak AND mentally to be average genin right now.

I think U would agree that Chouji for example is average genin, or Tenten, even Kiba, but... nahh... he's one of the stronger ones.

I believe she's weaker than those 2, after all, right now...

she can be pretty powerful some day, but she's not strong today and won't be strong tomorrow...

as for some genins being stronger than jounin, hell... they're just ranks, they mean nothing in fact, genin CAN be stronger than a jounin, but it depends on many many things...

He just stole what I'm going to say...

So what if there are little gap between a jounin and a genin. It doesn't mean the presidents, czars, ministers, or all these high ranking leaders are second to god in knowing everything.

PSJ

Mon, 05-31-2004, 03:51 PM

bad comparation. you dont become a big leader cause you have knowledge. if there was an exam for becoming president i would be more likely to pass it than bush.
this thread really has no meaning. of course is there a diffrence between a genin and a jounin even a dog would know that. if there wasnt why would these ranks exist?

SilentSnake

Mon, 05-31-2004, 04:13 PM

when I said that ranks don't mean nothing I was thinking about strenght.

of course Jounin MUST be quite experienced and smart, but genin not neccesarilly...

genin CAN be stronger than jounin, but that's it... being chuunin or jounin isn't only about being strong, there's a lot more into it after all...

it's been said in here enuff times I suppose...

random

Mon, 05-31-2004, 07:04 PM

i thought jiraiya was on par with kage... or the rank above jounin... same as the otehr sannin.... remember the chart thing they talked about somewhere in the first couple episodes... but anyways...

I really have nothing major to contribute to this argument...

I liked Haku... I wish he didn't die... hahahaha.. anyways I think by zabuza saying that haku was better than him... he was implying that with haku's bloodline technique... he could become a shinobi that was far superior to zabuza.... i don't really think he meant that haku was so far above him that he'd get owned by him....

Mut

Mon, 05-31-2004, 07:09 PM

there is no rank above jounin. it goes kage > jounin > chuunin > genin > academy student. i'd say that anbu is just a stage inbetween jounin and chuunin since anbu is not higher than jounin. also, sannin and sennin is not a rank.

random

Mon, 05-31-2004, 07:41 PM

well kage is above jounin... like u said.. and jiraiya and tsunade were considered for kage.. so they must be at kage level... kage is the title given to the highest ninja in the village (so its kind of like a rank)... well the first and second ruled together... so its possible to have more than one kage at once(more than one person can be at that 'level')... so i figure jiraiya and tsunade are kage level though not given the kage title (yet)... i see them as above jounin... if that makes any sense....

i think anbu aren't even on the scale.. but their skill level is somewhere within chuunin and jounin like u said...

orn210

Mon, 05-31-2004, 07:51 PM

i think there can be a genin stronger than a jounin cuz you should remember all the ninjas(jounins,kages) were genin before they go up, but i dont know if you're getting what i mean hmmm...... its like no matter how strong they are they have to be genin to go to the next level......... man i just confused myself

Himura_san

Mon, 05-31-2004, 08:47 PM

Just to make some points here.

In regards to Haku, he has a strong bloodline ability which may cause problems for even Jounins yet as we saw he did not have the ability to kill, I think that is the main jump from Genin to Jounin.
Regardless how much strength or power you have if you are not capable of using it it is useless.
It is like giving a 10 year old kid an assault rifle and giving a navy seal a hunting knife and setting them lose on each other in a small jungle. I would put my money on the navy seal. A jounin leaves emotion aside and thinks logically and makes sacrifices if needed, none of the genins have this ability. Even Garaa let emotions tie him down. It's not about overall strength or how many jutsus you know but how you can think during a fight and whether you can take the other person out.

BTW Kakashi would stomp both Garaa and Naruto if he wanted to.

Case Closed!!!!

kaigan

Mon, 05-31-2004, 09:08 PM

Haku can kill. He just doesn't want to kill Naruto and Sasuke.

dragon

Mon, 05-31-2004, 10:02 PM

just because a deamon is inside the ninja doesnt mean he is good look at saskues when he turns into the cursed sasuke hence oro's bite naruto bitchslaps sasukes oro form and removes the bruise

Assertn

Mon, 05-31-2004, 10:40 PM

the only times ive ever seen a genin do something to indicate that they could beat a jounin is in scenarios where the genin either has the power of a demon, or if the jounin just toys around with the genin for a while (both fit the haku scenario, and gaara fitting the "defeating all his assassins" scenario). Kakashi acknowledged that sasuke had alot of chakra way back in the survival training, but as we saw when he went up against itachi, that even having an uber powerful move and lee-level speed doesnt mean that he stands even a remote of a chance against a jounin

Until i see a serious all-out match between a jounin and a genin, with the genin winning....i refuse to accept that a genin could beat a jounin

Mon, 05-31-2004, 11:52 PM

ok ppl try to understand this, if a genin was strong enough to be a jounin he would be, thats why theres ppl like Kakashi and Itachi who were chunnin and jounin at very young ages. if the genin is not strong enough to be a jounin, then how can he/she possibly have the power to beat one. because there is a huge gap between them.

Zoels

Tue, 06-01-2004, 12:22 AM

when you guys are saying that genins arent stronger than jounins, youre only comparing them to the super ultra high level jounins (kakashi, itachi, ect..). wouldn't you think that a high level genin like sasuke or lee(ones that dont have demon powers) would be able to beat an average jounin?

Stoopider

Tue, 06-01-2004, 01:42 AM

Is there such thing as a average jounnin? I doubt it.

I would think a jounnin's a jounnin, he should be at the high already, not everybody becomes Jounnin's..
Thus I don't think there are average Jounnins. Even a 'new' Jounnin (Like Kurenai) should be able to kick lots of Chunnin's asses.

However, there's legendary jounnins like the three sannins. Their Jounnin's that have been around for a very long time and greatly experienced. That is all. Their just being recognized for being exeptional and great in their time. But their still Jounnins.

Like I said before, this is to my perception, although this is clearly speculation because honestly, I don't think Kishimoto thinks that far when he started the ranking :
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gennins = Ninja's that still need supervision (By the Jounnins), but can carry out simple-normal missions.

Chunnins = Ninja working class - We got the Anbu's, the medics, academy teachers. (Most ppl would eventually become chunnins, only the very talented one's become chunnins faster).
Probably won't have any teachers to supervise them, they should learn the skills by themselves or have some special classes that teach them like in Universities (Like we've seen some Anbu training classes).. No special supervision by the Jounnin's. Chunnins are the workforce of the ninja village.

Jounnins = Leader's and specialists. They command chunnins and gennins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

AznSensation

Tue, 06-01-2004, 02:21 AM

Wow, after reading all those arguments I finally get to reply. Alot of people make a lot of good cases as to whether a jounin could kick any genin's ass, so I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.

There is another example of a genin kicking a jounin's ass. Even though it was a crappy show, the Naruto Ova showed this "ultra" powerful jounin who got beat by Naruto and Sasuke. If you count the fact that Sasuke still had his original clothes and Naruto was able to gather Chakra from the Nine-tails that the "episode" fell after the 2nd exam, because Sakura's hair is short, but before the Itachi episode. There is a clear example of a jounin who even became "ultra" powerful and lost... aka: Leaf Jounin's are probably far more superior than other country's Jounins... or at least the main character. Either way, this shows an example. But for the sake of argument, let's throw this episode out... esp. since it sucked.

Chunin's are NOT stronger than all Genin. A Chunin just has the leadership ability and maturity to lead a squad. If you read all the manga, you'll see more examples as to how some Genin can be logically equal to some Jounin.

It seems that most everyone will agree that Itachi is a Jounin, and if that's the case then Haku is too. I'm not saying they are equal by far, but the case is that Zabuza and Kakashi were Jounin and they said Haku was better, hence Haku is at least Jounin Level. Just because he wasn't officially named a Jounin doesn't mean he wasn't one... Because if that's your case then Itachi never became a Jounin either. He fled while he was still an ANBU leader.

But in reality, let's look at the facts here... The main characters are NOT normal Genin. A NORMAL genin would most likely lose to a NORMAL jounin. But with the case of the main characters: Naruto, Sasuke, Neji, Gaara... all these guys probably could beat a Jounin. I don't think that they could beat Kakashi or the other Leaf Jounins, because most of them are genius themselves. It's one thing to have a lot of power but there's no good in all that power if you have no strategy or smarts about it. The reason Genins are Genins is because they lack the mental maturity to lead. If their rank was based soley off power, then why in the world would they constantly want to CALM DOWN in fights? You could have twice the Chakra, but it's useless if you can't even hit the enemy.

To sum it up, the main characters are a very talented group of Genin. Some of them may be on equal par as far as power with Jounin (Gaara and Naruto with their demon possesion), while some are equal as far as intellect (Shikamaru)... But being a Jounin is having and being able to utilize both. A powerful Genin could be a "stupid or careless" Jounin (assuming they are smarter or catches them off guard) and a Smart Genin could beat a "weak" Jounin (assuming the Genin was more powerful/more stamina).

Just what I think...

Goingin

Tue, 06-01-2004, 04:23 AM

Just new to this forums and a big Naruto fan (got hooked cause of ep 81 that i thought of giving a try, after that i dl'ed all the A/A eps and watched em in 1 weekend i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif).

I just had to sign in to reply to this topic i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

You can't really say a Genin can/cannot defeat a Chunin, or a Chunin defeat a Jounin, cause every person has his/her own speciality..

When someone has a speciality in some kind of jutsu while the opposite person lacks a defence at that particular jutsu, a Genin can even defeat a Jounin.

By example, with the 8 Gates stuff Rock Lee could defeat... lets say... the dude with the cigarette in his mouth? (forgot his name).

Maybe this aint such a good example, but think about it...

mak3

Tue, 06-01-2004, 06:30 AM

I don't think Haku was close to Kakashi in terms of strength, however Zabuza maybe (i don't rate Zabuza).

I mean Haku got killed by Kakashi's chidori, if he was so powerful he could have countered it or somthing.
Kakashi also smacked the crap out of zabuza afterwards. I know Kakashi got done by the water prison, however, i think that scenario was created as a twist and an oppenning for Naruto and Sasuke.
It wouldn't have been a great saga if Kakashi killed Zabuza that early.

Goingin

Tue, 06-01-2004, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by: mak3
I don't think Haku was close to Kakashi in terms of strength, however Zabuza maybe (i don't rate Zabuza).

I mean Haku got killed by Kakashi's chidori, if he was so powerful he could have countered it or somthing.
Kakashi also smacked the crap out of zabuza afterwards. I know Kakashi got done by the water prison, however, i think that scenario was created as a twist and an oppenning for Naruto and Sasuke.

Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...
U know he wanted Naruto to kill him, that was because Naruto was stronger than him (when half posessed by Nine-Tails) so he wasnt worthy battling for Zabuza anymore (Zabuza needed a strong boy as a tool) and he sacrificed himself to save Zabuza

Originally posted by: mak3
It wouldn't have been a great saga if Kakashi killed Zabuza that early.

If that would be so then we might have not met Haku

Stoopider

Tue, 06-01-2004, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by: Goingin

Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...

Huh? Sacrificing himself for no reason? If he could counter it, he would have. I doubt 'he just didn't wanted to'.

BTW, welcome to Gotwoot torrent, have a fun time. Don't mind the Mut@t@ guy. He's just like that.

Goingin

Tue, 06-01-2004, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by: Stoopider

Originally posted by: Goingin

Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...

Huh? Sacrificing himself for no reason? If he could counter it, he would have. I doubt 'he just didn't wanted to'.

BTW, welcome to Gotwoot torrent, have a fun time. Don't mind the Mut@t@ guy. He's just like that.

Thnx i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

But i really think he just sacrificed himself, and i am suprised u dont see that...
He wanted to die, he wanted Naruto to kill him, but Naruto couldnt.. and when he could Haku knew Zabuza was in trouble, blocked Naruto's attack and jumped in between Kakashi and Zabuza taking the full Chidori hit...

Then he grabbed hold of Kakashi's wrists and died.. (giving an opportunity for Zabuza to kill Kakashi)

Nine Tailed Demon

Tue, 06-01-2004, 09:34 AM

Before I even argue, I like how you went from genin to jounin. COmpletely skipping chuunins, thats like going for busboy to supervisor.

Stoopider

Tue, 06-01-2004, 10:49 AM

Yeah you might be right there goingin. *Watching back the old eps*

No idea why these Japanese people are so like that. Stupid. i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

AznSensation

Tue, 06-01-2004, 12:32 PM

Kakashi probably could've beaten Haku, even though he said he couldn't, but it probably would've been a lot harder than killing Zabuza. Throughout the show there's a lot of underestimating of other nin's abilities... but there's also a lot of overestimating as well. Ex: Naruto is scared of Neji and Gaara, initially. During the battles of the prelims/1st round there are a lot of people who think others will win and just be wrong. It all comes down to strategy... think about the Temari and Shikamaru battle for example... she's way stronger, but he wins

wirm

Tue, 06-01-2004, 05:02 PM

Sorry if I'm reposting something that another person said, but I got bored, and skipped to the end of the thread i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Anyway, I think a lot of people are either overestimating Haku, or underestimating Kakashi. I haven't gone back to see the old episodes, but the way I remember it, Kakashi didn't say that Haku could beat him. Just that he couldn't defeat the demonic ice mirrors. And of course, Kakashi would see that move coming and kill Haku before he could whip it out.

As some of the other posters said, there is a tremendous difference between raw talent and experience. This difference is epitomized in the rivalry between Gai and Kakashi.

It is not impossible for a normal genin to defeat a jounin, it's just really unlikely. Most jounins should have the talent that got them where they are, and the experience to use that talent to the best effect.

Another way of phrasing the contrast between genins and jounins would be the rock-paper-scissors analogy. A genin might have the most badass jutsu (a really big rock, strong paper, or really sharp scissors), but the jounin would have tons of each kind to fall back on, and would have a good idea which item would counter which.

Uchiha-Itachi

Tue, 06-01-2004, 05:21 PM

Naruto and Sasuke arent Jounins imo, their insight, tactics and leadership skills are not Jounin worthy... cause becoming a jounin isnt just knowing strong jutsu and have alot of chakra.

Knives122

Tue, 06-01-2004, 05:26 PM

Its a all around thing IMO, you must have power, brains, strategy, and leadership ability, with out all of these the other abilities wont help you at all

Wed, 06-02-2004, 02:00 AM

Sorry this is late. I've had a terrible work schedule and it isn't over yet. Here's the responses to page 1's top points.

no way theres FAR too much heresay in your post for it to be anywhere near factual, although i can see where your coming from i have to say your wrong.

I don't think you know what heresay means.

ok point one, sasuke hit oro and surprised him. gai hit kisame but i dont really think gai could beat him.

First off, since when is "I think differently than you" a refutation of anything? Good job for thinking differently, but unlike me you didn't actually provide evidence. Second off, nowhere in the OP did I pose the idea that Sasuke could whoop a Sannin. The Sannin are very, very rare exceptions in power compared to Konoha's typical Jounin.

Yes, kids. The same is true for the Genin. These BOTH prove my point: power is not tied to rank. There can be INSANELY strong Genin who are still better fit for the Genin position than for promotion: like Naruto and Sasuke. There can be INSANELY strong Jounin who could kill hundreds of other Jounin at once, and yet they are not a separate class because Jounin is not a designation based on power.

Here is the essential argument, again: I am not saying that the elite rookie Genins are "as strong as Jounin". I am saying that the phrase "as strong as a Jounin" means nothing: Jounin is not a class of power.

econd, half or even 75% of 1 million billion zillion is a lot less.

This works rather well when you invent a DBZ "power level" for Kakashi-sensei. Good thing there isn't one in the series.

third point haku is NOT a jounin. i cant stress this enough. he was beaten by sasuke, a gennin.

Uh, sure, buddy. What series did you watch?

For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin.

I consider the Chidori a high-level Jutsu (referring to it as Jounin level was erroneous). I support this by saying that an elite ninja like Kakashi, who has tons of experience and techniques, can only use that technique four times in 24 hours before becoming exhausted. Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.

I agree with Shadow-Wolf, I think you are just saying that some techniques are Jounin level are only for Jounins but Genins can perform it as well. Didn't you ever think that some of the Jounin teachers would teach their Genins their techniques?

Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.

And you also say that Naruto IS a Jounin just because he has the Kyubi inside him.

No, I don't.

Jounnins have lots more experience and can be more trusted to handle more difficult missions. Thus, they should be theoretically better at fighting and so what not.

No. I would discuss the reason why this isn't so, but, again... spoiler territory. Remember that the promotion isn't based on fighting ability, and I'll leave it at that.

Stuff that Stoopider says about the Genin being elite

No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.

That's a pretty illogical argument. It's full of guesses on your part that aren't justified, examples where a
gennin did little more than catch a jounin off guard for an instant

There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.

Sasuke may be able to do the Chidori almost as many times as Kakashi, but what makes you think that his
is anywhere near as strong as Kakashi's?

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

Oh, wait. We can just use the automatic assumption that a Jounin's techniques are a zillion times better than Sasuke's, just because it's a Jounin. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

garra and naruto both have demons that empower them, but for naruto to get that power he needs to be in a dire situation.

Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.

Goingin

Wed, 06-02-2004, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by: Y The Alien

Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.

Too bad the creator thinks its funny that until now we only seen Naruto use it when he's all out of options and cannot do anything else than call it up (fight against Neji) or when he's in distress (summoning Gamabunta when he's falling down that ..."thing" i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif, or in the fight against gaara when he's in a _tight situation_ like desert coffin i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif)

About the "i say he's too strong for me so i can't beat him" thing in naruto, why do most people go comparing ninja's on that?
There's a difference between saying u can do something and actually doing it with success.

The whole ninja comparison based on the things characters say in Naruto is just rubbish, u cannot do such a thing.
Naruto can say (out loud i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif) that he can beat Kakashi (by instance) but he can't.

U need actual fighting scenes to compare the strenghts of the characters, and even then u can be off, cause they all specialized in different jutsu's and moves, so an overall weakers ninja could defeat a stronger one if he does moves the stronger one cannot counter or if he's smarter

The whole Naruto series is just too much full of suprises, and with some characters getting more and more stronger, or some revealing more special moves its almost impossible to compare em

gokudagreat

Wed, 06-02-2004, 02:41 AM

You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas

For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great

Mut

Wed, 06-02-2004, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by: gokudagreat
You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas

For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great

that villages jounin standards were obviously below average seeing how they had like 30 people living in that whole village.

Wed, 06-02-2004, 03:02 AM

Using the Jump Special is a copout. A terrible copout. First, it's an INCREDIBLY off base power for Naruto and Sasuke, who have been shown close to Jounins but never able to easily whoop the ass of a Jounin hopped up on a 10x chakra increasing powerup. I mean, I think Sasuke at his best showings in the manga can barely take 5/10 or 6/10 against Kakashi-sensei. Yet in the special he and Naruto whip Suien's ass like it's a joke. That is stupendously off-kilter.

Second, the special has several tiny continuity errors that place it outside of the main Naruto timeline.

Jessper

Wed, 06-02-2004, 03:14 AM

Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique? You can't use the automatic assumption that just because he killed Haku(which I got the feeling that he didn't want to and was trying to stop) and not some demon that his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

Kurapica

Wed, 06-02-2004, 06:51 AM

This thread blows, some people try to make assumptions of their own. I'd say let's have Kishimoto Masashi decide who is off what level and who can beat who, instead of just picturing stuff.

Stoopider

Wed, 06-02-2004, 08:18 AM

yes it does.

I doubt if Kishimoto even have thought through about the whole gennin Chunnin or Jounnin concept.

Hinata-chan

Wed, 06-02-2004, 11:24 AM

not gonna bother reading this so i'll add my bit

FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME YOU ARE WRONG I R RIGHT

DaRk-SeRpEnT

Wed, 06-02-2004, 07:40 PM

Haha this is funny but kakashi is more efficient then sasuke that makes him better and sasuke doesnt have as good teamwork and leadership skills as kakashi so there kakashi is better

Knives122

Wed, 06-02-2004, 08:01 PM

Bottom Line: Jounins are stronger more experienced and can work better in bad situations

WINNER: JOUNINS

SofaKing

Wed, 06-02-2004, 09:17 PM

There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one. Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

You need to argue with actual evidence, not "I feel"'s.

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

Once again, you need to re-watch the series. Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

Mut

Wed, 06-02-2004, 09:31 PM

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

Thu, 06-03-2004, 12:22 AM

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

Yes. It does show that Sasuke has more chakra than typical Genins, before he and the group even begin training.

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

I can't respond to this without spoling the results of the Chuunin Exam.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique?

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

And my post was a parody of the one I was responding to.

Did you catch that? i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

You are right, I was totally wrong about the frog summons and misremembered both Gamabunta's line ("No one's ridden on my back since the Fourth") and a later manga arc.

This thread blows

And what a useful contribution your posts make to it, son. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one.

To cite an example of Sasuke tricking a Sannin to show his ingenuity in battle - not that he'd whoop the guy's ass. Sasuke's power and ingenuity in battle surprised Oro and threw him off balance - and that is all. It isn't as if my argument hinges on Sasuke being able to whip the Sannin's asses blindfolded. That was just a high showing for him, not "omg rofls he pwnd oro".

Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

You got me, buddy. Sasuke in the early parts of the series cannot beat Orochimaru. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Congratulations, that proves nothing. It isn't as though any of the Leaf Jounin can replicate that feat.

Uchiha Barles

Thu, 06-03-2004, 12:34 AM

Although we haven't really seen any kind of proof of it yet, it is rumored that Kakashi cut through lightning (whatever that means) with his chidori. I think that, if it's true, that blows anything Sasuke has shown with the chidori to date.

Mut

Thu, 06-03-2004, 12:56 AM

what are you trying to say y the alien? are you trying to say that kakashi would lose to sasuke if they went head to head with their chidori?

ShinobiNeko

Thu, 06-03-2004, 12:59 AM

If Sasuke and Kakashi went head on with Chidori I"m sure Kakashi would come out the winner -.-

SofaKing

Thu, 06-03-2004, 01:02 AM

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

#1 That's a nice dodge there.
#2 It did not melt his flesh off, it melted someone else's flesh off. Oro was wearing someone else's face as a
mask at the time. Oro himself was unharmed.
#3 I see no reason why Kakashi would not survive such a blast. Funny thing about the jounin in Naruto- they
are stronger, faster, and tougher than any real human.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

#1 Don't say 'No shit' now when you said that Gaara was cut in half before.

#2 No, it doesn't. You're STILL missing the fact that Sasuke's Chidori failed to defeat Gaara. The Chidori is a
finishing move, which judging from the Kakashi vs. Zabuza fight is supposed to be able to kill an opponent,
not just hurt him a little. Sasuke's Chidori didn't do too good a fucking job of that, now did it? And all you can
offer on Kakashi's Chidori is that it only killed the person that it struck.

Unless you can provide actual evidence to show that Sasuke's Chidori is as good as Kakashi's, then there
remains a gaping hole in your logic.

miaka

Thu, 06-03-2004, 01:03 AM

jeez guys... sasuke, naruto and etc are in chuunin level now... and jounins are stronger than them.. i mean there are ranks for a reason.. and kakashi knows 1000 jutsus.. of course sasuke can't beat kakashi.. kakashi wouldn't be his teacher if sasuke could

Jessper

Thu, 06-03-2004, 02:10 AM

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

Well you said basic, not basic fire tech and replication is pretty basic imo where his fireball would be probably a level above that.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

cutting him in half is different from cutting his arm in half. also, Activates the Heaven Seal? You meanthe cursed seal? I'm lost here.

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

The point of my question was it is like comparing the strength of two guns with one shooting a bird and the other shooting a bear and saying this proves that the one that killed the bird can't be vastly stronger than the other one, you don't know. Also like I said I think Kakshi was trying to stop (but we probably won't ever know) so if he was that might be why his Chidori did less damage.

I know that you can't reveal the results of the exam but as far as we know(the anime only watchers) they could be Chuunin so this isn't really the place to bring up this discussion as then half of your examples would be chuunin vs jounin not genin.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Ya his "flesh" was a fake face that burned off and he was unharmed. And Kakshi was fine when Sasuke used his fireball on him too.

Goingin

Thu, 06-03-2004, 02:20 AM

Sasuke could be stronger and would be having more chakra to use if he didn't have that Cursed seal, so it's kinda hard to tell how strong he really is..

Btw, its a pretty nice trick done by Oro, this way Sasuke has to come to him if he seeks more power than the seal permits

complich8

Thu, 06-03-2004, 04:35 AM

This argument is going around in circles, because there's too much focus on special cases. Let's talk about general cases first.

I like to think of genin, chuunin and jounin like belts in martial arts.

Genin is white belt. White belts can do two or three basic punches and kicks, or so. Maybe know a really simple basic form or stance or block. Genins can use replication, which is the first ninja technique they learn.

Chuunin is like red belt. You can do Palm Heel Strikes, Elbow Strikes, 6 types of kicks, break boards, you know the basic tenets of the philosophy pretty well. Chuunins can lead, have good versatile technique toolkits and have their priorities straight (for the most part).

Jounin is like a 2nd degree black belt. You're a master of the philosophy, you're versatile in the arts in general. Does that mean you'll win every fight? Certainly not. Does that mean you'll win every fight with a white belt who's got 18 inches of height and 12 inches of reach and 200 lbs and a background in some other martial art? Not at all. Does it mean you're versatile and good in a lot of situations, and know the ins and outs of your art better than a red belt? Very likely. Not every black belt is going to be stronger than every red belt, or even exceptional white belts. Just like when I was in taekwondo for a few months and the instructor (a 2dan black belt) couldn't get basic techniques to work on me because I am just overwhelmingly big.

Gaara is certainly a special case. Naruto is definitely. Sasuke? You bet. Even Sakura is a special case, despite people's naysaying. Neji and Hinata? Lee? You better believe they aren't normal. I'd say the only "normal" cases we've seen would be tenten, ino, and chouji. They have their techniques, their techniques have flaws, they're growing but they're not stronger in any field than your average next level up.

Now let's talk about more specifics. Why can Kakashi only do Chidori 1 time more per day than Sasuke can? An easy explanation is that Chidori requires the use of Sharingan. Since Kakashi isn't an uchiha (and thus not built for sharingan) it saps his strength a lot more than a born sharingan-user like sasuke (who is probably almost at the point of sharingan being second nature now). Add this built-in drain factor to a powerful chakra-heavy technique, and realize that on top of that it's not the only tool that kakashi has or would use, and you've still got room for him to have significantly more chakra than Sasuke, just that he uses more of it doing the same things when the same things involve the use of sharingan.

I think of the Sannin to be like 4th or 5th dan black belts. Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru is tactically smarter than Jiraiya. Tsunade, we don't know about. I'd put the third at around the same. These are people that you almost never see fight, and especially never see fight each other, but when they're serious nobody below that level can really get anywhere close to them.