jutsu levels

[Assertn]

i was just skimming over the chapters where naruto trains for the rasengan....and jiraiya says something about rasengan being one of the 6th level jutsus? like, the second strongest i think.....

anyone else hear anything about these jutsu levels? i remember haku saying stuff like "a fire jutsu of THAT LEVEL wont be enough" or itachi saying "genjustu of THAT LEVEL cant beat me"

[Mut]

i think those are the only times levels of jutsu were said. i figure like the fire jutsu the 3rd did (that super one where it looked like just got hotter and hotter) is probably one of the highest levels of fire jutsus. also, the 2nd blocked that fire jutsu with a high level of water jutsu (anbu members were impressed on the fact that such a high level water jutsu was performed at a place of no water). and for the genjutsu, i think sharingan can probably perform the highest levels of genjutsus. i think tayuya also had a pretty high level genjutsu.

for rasengan, the version i have says this:

"to appreciate the degree of difficulty of this jutsu, he (4th) was six grades above the second... 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level"

"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"

i don't know what version i have but those two sentences make zero sense to me...

[hornetmike]

I've also heard the theory that the rasengan has diffeent levels of power. meaning it's much more complicated and powerful than the level that naruto has mastered. so basically, it has a lot more potential than what naruto knows so far.

Also about jutsus in general. i figure jutsu levels have to do with the more powerful techniques because they are harder and require much more chakra and control. but hey, all in all, i'm really not sure

[Assertn]

haha yeah, i had to stop to read that line over a few times......hopefully the anime will clear that up more

i wouldnt think there's multiple levels of rasengan though, if you can make a spinning ball of chakra, then you can make a spinning ball of chakra. There's not much else you can do to it than that.....but the reason naruto isnt actually a master of it like jiraiya and the 4th is because he actually needs 3 hands to mold it

[PSJ]

there are 6 diffrent stages or levels if you wish that you have to master to fully master the rasengan. and the other times they have talked about level they probably only mean "that jutsu is to weak to defeat me" in many animes they use the term level on things like strength, speed, power.

[SideLabel]

I've been doing some thinking about this, and I've come up with some conclusions.

I would assume that, with time and training, a ninja learns and understands more about the theory of ninja techniques. So far we don't really know these theoretics. So after a ninja understand how a fire technique works he can practice on it to shorten the time he needs to prepare it, the amount of chakara he needs to use, and so forth. I would also believe that the more one understands jutsu and how it all works the more resistant one becomes. Take muscles for example. While working out one tears the muscle fibers in your muscles, and when they heal that is when they become stronger. It will take more effort to tear them again. The same could be applied to ninja techniques. After a certain time of using them basic techniques can be performed without though, while techniques that are more difficult require more effort and concentration.

But what makes a jutsu more difficult or hard to performe. Again this would fall into theory. So far we don't know WHY certain jutsu's are harder to perform than others. I belive that it has to do with the amount of chakara used, and what you are trying to do with it. A small amount of chakra sent out as a burst of flame would be relatively easy. A large amount of chakra sent out in the form of a water dragon, for example, would be harder because you are not only depending on other elements outside your control (water), but also the chakra has to be distributed far away from you and be given a distinct shape.

When people, such as Oro, says that "such a low level jutsu could never beat me", it is because they most likely know how that jutsu work, and are able to counter it's effects. If you know how to solve a math problem then it is no longer a problem, because you know how to solve it. See my point? Of course, this is all based on the assumption that there is a universal theory and law that applies for perfoming jutsu. Like the laws of physics, but only for ninja techniques.

[Gods_Son]

Jutsu level based on type or if it's ninjutsu or genjutsu makes sense, but I don't know what the number system is about.

[Assertn]

well apparently its more than hand seals and chakra stamina....because it took naruto a lot of trouble to concentrate and form the sphere with the chakra.....i think control also has a big part to play

Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya, im pretty sure jiraiya was talking about the "level" of the jutsu....especially since i think he only explained 3 steps to learning rasengan

[Hakeem_21]

If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.

[Lithonite]

i am under the impression that a jutsu lvl has to do with chakra control and execution. wich is why super high lvl jutsu's are hard for sharingan to copy. unless the sharingan user has the required genius to comprehend what is his/her eyes are seeing. not only comprehend but have the ctrol of their body and chakra to perform it at the precision needed. I believe that the rasegan could easily be copy by the hyuga clan. not so much by other who have not strained their bodies to manipulate chakra from chakra holes. i tihnk the the speed and power requiments of the rasegan are what make it such a high lvl jutsu because of the chakra control required to pull it off. the exact reason why Naruto has to use two hands to do at his current lvl.

[Assertn]

you mean 3 hands i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Hokage-IV]

Originally posted by: SideLabel
I've been doing some thinking about this, and I've come up with some conclusions.

I would assume that, with time and training, a ninja learns and understands more about the theory of ninja techniques. So far we don't really know these theoretics. So after a ninja understand how a fire technique works he can practice on it to shorten the time he needs to prepare it, the amount of chakara he needs to use, and so forth. I would also believe that the more one understands jutsu and how it all works the more resistant one becomes. Take muscles for example. While working out one tears the muscle fibers in your muscles, and when they heal that is when they become stronger. It will take more effort to tear them again. The same could be applied to ninja techniques. After a certain time of using them basic techniques can be performed without though, while techniques that are more difficult require more effort and concentration.

But what makes a jutsu more difficult or hard to performe. Again this would fall into theory. So far we don't know WHY certain jutsu's are harder to perform than others. I belive that it has to do with the amount of chakara used, and what you are trying to do with it. A small amount of chakra sent out as a burst of flame would be relatively easy. A large amount of chakra sent out in the form of a water dragon, for example, would be harder because you are not only depending on other elements outside your control (water), but also the chakra has to be distributed far away from you and be given a distinct shape.

When people, such as Oro, says that "such a low level jutsu could never beat me", it is because they most likely know how that jutsu work, and are able to counter it's effects. If you know how to solve a math problem then it is no longer a problem, because you know how to solve it. See my point? Of course, this is all based on the assumption that there is a universal theory and law that applies for perfoming jutsu. Like the laws of physics, but only for ninja techniques.


good read, good theory ..

so ur saying....
and the basic question is

can some one like Oro be killed by basic fire techniqe?

One ,he is just immune to fire. by amount of chakra is being used or can be used? or

Two, katon is ninjutsu and he knows the techniqe and knows how to counter it, even though it seems hes just standing there getting burned.

In reality , fire is just as dangerous as a sword. In Naruto world it seems very distinct. They avoid getting stab by an object but they are carefree against fire.(so by this it should favor TWO,cuz fire is ninjutsu and its a technique ( but note* its also very distinct between fire and water, how they react to the technique, so by this it favors ONE)
but weapons and fire are consider basic lvl of ninja battle.(not referring to lvl of fire technique and weapons that can be used.)

so the question is

Can oro be killed by a regular weapon that can pierc through skin?(assuming he has no healing abilities)

or lvl of the weapon is being used determines it? (Enma's henge? Diamond Pole)

of course we will never know the answers to these questions cuz there is no law they follow but law of their creativity to innovate and logic will be whatever they desire to be for its viewers

[PSJ]

Originally posted by: Hakeem_21
If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.

narutos rasengan isnt weak he just forms it slower and in a diffrent way than jiraiya does.

[SideLabel]

Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.

The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.

To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.

That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.

[Hakeem_21]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya


Originally posted by: Hakeem_21
If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.

narutos rasengan isnt weak he just forms it slower and in a diffrent way than jiraiya does.



I think Jiraya said something about that his rasengan i a low level rasengan compared to his and the fourth cause he hasnt mastered it if he had Kabuto would be dead. Also Jiraya only learned him 3 stages of the rasengan and he said it was six stages to learned it compelitly if i remember my manga well.

Im gonna read agian the chapters when he learns rasengan to be sure.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: SideLabel
Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.

The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.

To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.

That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.

i agree up till the point where you said "there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu"

its a good theory, but one jutsu that readily comes to mind that can beat projectiles and physical attacks is the kaiten. When neji spun around, he could not only deflect the naruto clones that jumped at him, but the shurikens that naruto threw at him as well. Im pretty sure there are other barrier type jutsus that serve similiar purposes as well

[tuggumkee]

I believe he is saying a defense that is not active. As in you just stand there and seemingly do nothing. I agree with this theory that if you know the jutsu well enough, it wont really affect you. I also had a theory on hand seals that i posted on the anime forum(because u can't really see how many hand seals are used in the manga) but it goes along the lines that after u learn a jutsu well enough, u can do them without hand seals.

as for the lines
"to appreciate the degree of difficulty of this jutsu, he (4th) was six grades above the second... 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level"

"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"

I took this statement in actual system of levels of jutsus. This is because i think somewhere it also says that the ransengan is the 2nd hardest jutsu in its level(i think there were like 7 in the level) and that the level was the 2nd highest level of jutsus(meaning above this level there was only 1 more level). I have to check up on that to make sure.

Anyways my theory on this statement is that jiraiya is saying the 4th was able to do jutsus in the highest level(assuming the rasengan is "the second [jutsu in] 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level". However the 4th still took 3 years to learn how to do this jutsu. At the time Jiraiya was saying how difficult this jutsu was to learn.

So basically Jiraiya was saying that even though the 4th knew how do to harder jutsus, the ransengan is fundamentally different to learn than most other high level jutsus. The high level fire and water jutsus the hokages do use seals whereas ransengan uses chakra control.

Well thats my guess anyway.

[Hokage-IV]

Originally posted by: SideLabel
Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.

The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.

To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.

That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.


This is very complex because there is so many aspects to it, and i think ur theory is pretty good

As for me , I don't think Kishimoto is following certain laws that can be indentified precisly . For Example, We know there is gravity in Naruto cuz they cant fly, but they can jump like 50 feet up high and somtimes they can jump 100 feet up high . So which law is he following? the gravity is the same but the ninjas are physically much stronger and their chakra, adds to the equation . which we know its anamoly how much if effects or , is gravity was just simply been modified which is not the same as the real world.

mass theory makes sense and it clears up quite a few things . but if there is a ninjutsu defense , do you consider running away from the jutsu a defense? or do they only have defense against fire? certainly element jutsu are comparable with each other in terms of lvls . we see that they can stand in fire and not get their skin burnt off. Also we ccan see they avoid water jutsu and if they get caught like zabuza did ,we can see the effect of it and that was against his own jutsu.

personally i dont think there is a defense, well actually i do, its called ego

[The Lord of Morning]

headache headache headache

no laws are being properly followed, but if a ninja jumps 100 feet he probably used a little more chakra to give him a boost, i woudl think its simple as that.


i dont remember anywhere about rasengan being the 2nd highest but that might just be the subs i read.

naruto still needs three hands, his right hand and the clones two hands to mold it. if he can do it with only his one hand would he be equal to jiraiya's???

anyone remember how hatake the coughing ninja died? he attacked the sand nin who said "a sword of metal can be stopped, but not a sword of air'. maybe that jutsu is somewhat similar? although i doubt it is superior to the rasengan if the 4th created it.

damnit i hate having to wait a week for the manga and get so little info each week.

[moridin]

Naruto only needs two hands to do Rasengan...anyone remember inside the fat guys jutsu? He uses Rasengan...or against Sasuke, I believe he uses Rasengan without using a clone

[Assertn]

fat guy? not sure what you're talkin about....
but he used a clone to create rasengan against sasuke...i remember cause he used it to follow up that large kage bunshin he pulled off, and when sasuke used his fire move he wiped out all but 2 of them

[Masamune]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
for rasengan, the version i have says this:

"to appreciate the degree of difficulty of this jutsu, he (4th) was six grades above the second... 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level"

"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"

i don't know what version i have but those two sentences make zero sense to me...
i think,
rasengan lvls
1=water balloon
2=rubber ball
3=control.
"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"
so after lvl 3 u can use it
4=??
5=??
6=??
maybe we get to see other training of jiraiya later on.
and for measuring
2+6=8= 4th's lvl of this jutsu ( get a understanding how great the 4th was, of course it'd make no sense why say 6 grades above the second )
or he means yondaime was like god compaired to the second hokage

^all speculation >_>

[Assertn]

no i think the "3rd grade level jutsu" applies to jutsu abilities as a whole...
and 6 grades above the 2nd "a rank blah blah level" means that whatever level the 2nd A rank level is, he's 6 levels above....but that applies to him, not the rasengan, which jiraiya did on purpose to show naruto that someone at a level as high as he was still needed 3 years to master the technique

[The Lord of Morning]

after watching the ANBU episode 87 i think the rasengan level goes like this

it is A rank, and jiraiya says it is second highest, so any jutsu higher would be S rank (why is this anyway) i think all three levels of rasengan, water ballon, rubber, and actual chakra ball are the only 'levels' of the jutsu and producing the chakra ball is A rank. no clue what a S rank jutsu would be as we have not seen one actually identified but i would guess that orochi's immortality, or the death seal of the 4th would be S rank.

i dont think there are higher levels of the rasengan and i doubt we have seen many S rank jutsu's (although none have actually been called such)

[PSJ]

ok its like this these levels 1-7 they tell how strong a jutsu is. rasengan is in the 6th level together with other jutsus on similar strength level. then the basic jutsus like bunshin and kawarimi is 1st level. and the 4ths sealing would be a 7th level jutsu i guess.

[_gaara_]

believe he is saying a defense that is not active. As in you just stand there and seemingly do nothing

What about Gaara? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif



As for the whole fire and physical attack thing, I think that a strong guy like Oro, if he just stood there and did nothing (and had no contingencies), could be killed by a simple shruiken or basic fire jutsu.

It seems that all attacks, whether it be a a tidal wave or fireball or whatever, are made up of or powered by chakra. So, it makes sense that chakra could also be used to stop those jutsus, correct?

Just like itachi dodged sasuke's chidori with a simple flick of his wrist, it makes sense that a fireball of the same level could be dodged with a nominal amount of chakra.



There are probably a myriad of gaping holes in that argument, but hell, it was only about 2 minutes of speculation.

[SideLabel]

We are getting in very complex matters. We are discussing all the what if's and whyfor's. We can do discuss forever if we put our minds to it. But I do believe that there are certain things we should all agree upon.

The Laws of Physics are the same, if not very similar. The fact that ninjas can jump higher than humanly possible is due to chakra (the strength of your legs would have to be insanely high if you were to jump 100 feet in our world). Now there are two factors in the Naruto world that differs it from ours. One is the ability to harness the power of chakra. The second, for a lack of a better word, is mythology. We have the demons after all. What lives can be killed, regardless of strength. You just need someone stronger to kill that greater power. As Robert Jordan wrote, "only a greater power can break a power."

Jutsu comes in "levels", so to speak. Level referring to the level of difficulty. Difficulty is decreed by the amount of chakra, hand seals, and the difficulty of molding the chakra properly. I also think it is fair to say that the "level", or difficulty, of a jutsu increases exponentially. It is much more than twice as hard to perform a jutsu at level three than to perform the same jutsu at level two (if curious, ask me for an explonation. It is rather lengthy).

This is what I think can be firmly set in stone, the rest is just speculation.

[_gaara_]

I am going to call shenenigans. The laws of physics do _not_ apply to the world of Naruto.

1.Regardless of whether or not chakra enables people to jump super-high, they still have to deal with the landing. The impact of a 1 meter fall has about the same kinetic energy as a bullet. Granted, it is spead over a somewhat larger area (your feet), however if it was 20x that amount (which most of these people seem to be capable), serious injury would occur even if the landing was executed perfectly.

2. Huge snakes, animals, bugs, the choji guy, etc... The snakes are proportional lengthwise to a normal snake, and are say, scaled 100x. The length goes from 2 meters to 200 meters. The snake's strength is increased by 100 squared, or 10000. However, the weight of the snake is increased with the cube of the scaling factor. So, the weight increases by 100 cubed, or a million. The weight increases 100x more than the strength, and a huge snake, frog, slug, centipede, etc. would not be even able to lift itself off the ground, and of course not be able to jump 5 km in the air.

3. I don't think I even need to explain the part where Naruto falls off a cliff, and gamabunta is summoned and naruto lands on him and survives. According to the laws of physics, landing even in water, a huge foam pit, or any other surface would yield the same result as landing on concrete - you would die.



The list goes on and on.

[Assertn]

ah but _gaara_ who says they dont use chakra to break their fall when they're landing?

and where do you get the strength being 100 squared? is that some biological formula i dont know about?

[_gaara_]

I think it is highly unlikely that they use chakra to break their fall when they land, since it does not mention it anywhere. Take the tree-climbing exercise for example. Naruto goes up a few meters, then lands straight on his head. Did he use chakra to break his head-fall? Probably not. He lost focus of his chakra, and that was the cause for his fall. Would this fall have caused serious injury or death to a real person? Yes.

Granted, this moment was probably intended for comedy, so you can take a more serious note - Naruto climbs up pretty high (about how high sasuke was on his first try) and then falls down and lands on his feet. Is it likely that he could re-focus his chakra to his feet, mid-fall, right after it was lost to make him fall in the first place?


Now, for your other question...

A person or creature's leg strength is directly proportional to their cross-sectional area, like the columns that hold up greek temples. This, in turn, is proportional to the square of the radius of the column, according to the equation -
A= pi times r squared
So, the strength of legs scale up with the square of the scaling factor (hence, 100 squared)


Somewhat similarly, each segment of a creature's body is about the same as a sphere whose weight is proportional to its volume given by the equation:

V=(4/3) times pi times r cubed

With constant density, the weight therefore increases with the cube of the scaling factor.

[Assertn]

remember the episode of the simpsons where poochy was introduced to the itchy and scratchy show and there was that convention where some nerdy fan was all talking about a "magical xylophone" where itchy hit the same rib on scratchy twice and it produced a different sound....and then he starts doing that geeky laughter and says "i sure hope someone was fired for that one".......

sorry....your post reminded me of that i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Himura_san]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
remember the episode of the simpsons where poochy was introduced to the itchy and scratchy show and there was that convention where some nerdy fan was all talking about a "magical xylophone" where itchy hit the same rib on scratchy twice and it produced a different sound....and then he starts doing that geeky laughter and says "i sure hope someone was fired for that one".......

sorry....your post reminded me of that i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


It's funny how much the simpsons will make fun of their own fans and their geekiness. Simpson's fans are some of the most technically accurate fans their are and they know their Simpson's like a bishop knows his bible (relatively speaking).

anywho back on topic...

I will try my best to answer _gaara_'s arguments he has brought up, since he has taken his time to inform of these physical anomalies that cannot be answered scientifically.

Argument 1:
Regardless of whether or not chakra enables people to jump super-high, they still have to deal with the landing. The impact of a 1 meter fall has about the same kinetic energy as a bullet. Granted, it is spead over a somewhat larger area (your feet), however if it was 20x that amount (which most of these people seem to be capable), serious injury would occur even if the landing was executed perfectly.

answer: It's a cartoon.

Argument 2:
Huge snakes, animals, bugs, the choji guy, etc... The snakes are proportional lengthwise to a normal snake, and are say, scaled 100x. The length goes from 2 meters to 200 meters. The snake's strength is increased by 100 squared, or 10000. However, the weight of the snake is increased with the cube of the scaling factor. So, the weight increases by 100 cubed, or a million. The weight increases 100x more than the strength, and a huge snake, frog, slug, centipede, etc. would not be even able to lift itself off the ground, and of course not be able to jump 5 km in the air.

answer: It's a cartoon.

Argument 3:
I don't think I even need to explain the part where Naruto falls off a cliff, and gamabunta is summoned and naruto lands on him and survives. According to the laws of physics, landing even in water, a huge foam pit, or any other surface would yield the same result as landing on concrete - you would die.

answer: It's a cartoon for F#($! sake get over it!!!

[_gaara_]

Hmm, Himura, you are an interesting character. If you bothered reading my posts (which is a good idea when you attempt to be a smart-ass), you would have realized that I was not trying to explain how/why things happen in Naruto (which is obvious - it is fiction and the author can do whatever the hell he wants).

I was simply clearing up the misunderstanding that Sidelabel had ("The Laws of Physics are the same, if not very similar [in Naruto, compared to the real world]")

i/expressions/rolleye.gif

[SideLabel]

Yeah, I think you disproved that theory neatly. But there has to be some laws of physics, and from what we've seen they appear to be relatively similar. Otherwise even normal people jump a 100 feet, or the ninjas would be the only ones able to jump. Obviously, it's because it is a cartoon and the author can do whatever he likes. Last time I checked Naruto didn't fall into the comon sense category (with the snakes and the jutsu and so forth).

[The Lord of Morning]

it always comes down to ppl attacking each other of things that cannot possibly be answered. at least we made it to the 2nd page. ;p

damn physics, chakra defies all laws!

[Assertn]

yes well, i was initially trying to discuss the jutsu level concept that we've heard jiriaya mention once. I wonder if there are any official books or something that talks about the different levels of jutsus like kage bunshin and whatnot.

If you're gonna argue about physics and biology to the point where it has to be absolutely realistic....then you might as well get all the millions of other shows, myths, movies, folktales, and books that break the same arguments you bring up.

In fact, we could recreate a scene with completely accurate physics and maybe, just maybe......it might be half as entertaining! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[Hakeem_21]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
ok its like this these levels 1-7 they tell how strong a jutsu is. rasengan is in the 6th level together with other jutsus on similar strength level. then the basic jutsus like bunshin and kawarimi is 1st level. and the 4ths sealing would be a 7th level jutsu i guess.


Actually Jiraya said that Rasengan was a 6 level justu of 8 levels so there is 8 levels not 7.

[PSJ]

no he said the rasengan is a 6th level jutsu, second from the top. which means the first from the top is 7 then 6, 5, 4 etc etc.

[_gaara_]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
If you're gonna argue about physics and biology to the point where it has to be absolutely realistic....then you might as well get all the millions of other shows, myths, movies, folktales, and books that break the same arguments you bring up.

In fact, we could recreate a scene with completely accurate physics and maybe, just maybe......it might be half as entertaining! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


You seem to have gotten the wrong concept from my posts... I am not saying anything fiction has to be realistic, or that it sucks because it isn't realistic.

However, if you get some movie like The Hulk, and say, "This is a nonfiction movie," or "If there were a guy that big and with muscles that size, he could do what the Hulk did in the movie," I will have no qualms proving you wrong.


Sidelabel had a theory that the physics were the same, if not very similar, to the real world. I was simply saying that this wasn't the case.

[The_Guru]

from what i heard in the anime and the manga, i think there are only 6 levels of difficulty in jutsus. and i think jiraiya said that the rasengan is A-rank difficulty. i think the 6 levels of jutsus is related to the degree of difficulty of mastering the move. and the amount of understanding the user needs to have before he can perform the move. i'm guessing the level rankings are something like this

highest = S
2nd highest = A
3rd highest = B
middle = C
2nd lowest = D
lowest = E

the rasengan seems like it could be a high level jutsu that involves a lot of understanding of the tricks to using the technique well. even though naruto can use the technique now, he hasn't mastered it compared to jiraiya. jiraiya can create a rasengan in each hand (which is shown when he is teaching naruto how to perform the technique during the 3rd stage), compared to naruto who can only create one with the help of a kage bunshin. so naruto has a long way to go before he can completely master the technique which took the 4th Hokage 3 years to master completely.

[Assertn]

in light of the recent AA episode......i'd have to agree with you

the manga was kinda shady in those chapters, so i wouldnt rely too much on it, it makes more sense to have A-E and S, since they do something kinda like that with ranking of difficulty for missions and enemies as well

[Mut]

Originally posted by: The_Guru
highest = S
2nd highest = A
3rd highest = B
middle = C
2nd lowest = D
lowest = E

i don't think there are such thing as E rank missions. if loser genins are able to do D rank missions which can consist of picking weeds out of a garden, walking dogs, and picking up trash, i mean E rank missions must consist of watching the paint dry or something even more useless like that.

[Assertn]

well, thats why i said "kinda like that"
yeah i took the E into consideration for missions....and how those dont exist, but it makes sense for jutsus at least

[_gaara_]

I've noticed it mentioned several times in this forum that Naruto needed the kage bunshin to create the Rasengan . . . wasn't that only because he had his other hand pierced by Kabuto's kunai?

[Mut]

Originally posted by: _gaara_
I've noticed it mentioned several times in this forum that Naruto needed the kage bunshin to create the Rasengan . . . wasn't that only because he had his other hand pierced by Kabuto's kunai?

no, he used a clone during his face off against sasuke at the roof.

[PSJ]

he let kabuto peirce his hand becuase he could only do rasengan with a clone. so he imobilized kabuto and then did the rasengan.

[Assertn]

yeah, it turns out he actually needs 3 hands to get the rasengan to form perfectly