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Lego
Tue, 05-04-2004, 02:44 AM
Turkish Man Kills 14-Year-Old Daughter

By SUZAN FRASER
Associated Press Writer

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Ignoring the pleas of his 14-year-old daughter to spare her life, Mehmet Halitogullari pulled on a wire wrapped around her neck and strangled her - supposedly to restore the family's honor after she was kidnapped and raped.

Nuran Halitogullari, buried Thursday in a ceremony attended by women's rights advocates, is the latest victim in a long history of so-called "honor" killings, which Turkey's government is struggling to curb.

Each year, dozens of girls are killed in Turkey by their relatives for allegedly disgracing their families - some for merely being seen speaking to men. The practice is especially common in the more traditional southeast and among families who have migrated to big cities from the region.

Honor killings also occur in Pakistan and some countries of the Middle East and among immigrant families in EU countries like Britain and Sweden. The European Union, which Turkey aspires to join, is pressing the country to take steps to curb a practice it says is a violation of women's rights.

Parliament last year voted to raise the punishment for such crimes to as long as 24 years in prison. But a loophole in the laws allows relatives to escape with sentences as light as eight years if they can prove they were "provoked" into committing the crime.

European countries want Turkey to ensure that family members cannot benefit from the loophole.

"No reductions should be made and everyone should know that such crimes will be punished and that no one can escape," Sweden's ambassador to Turkey, Anne Dismorr, said in an interview with the weekly Nokta magazine. "In our view the main cause behind the honor killings is the fact that honor is regarded as grounds for reduced sentences."

Turkey has embarked on a major overhaul of its penal code and is expected to rectify the loophole, but the draft code is still weeks away from being endorsed. Some politicians on Thursday called on the government to immediately bring the issue to parliament.

Lawyer Senal Saruhan, a woman's rights advocate, fears the draft may not go far enough. She insists that family members who incite or encourage the killings should be punished alongside the perpetrators.

"Unless we bring severe punishments we will never stop these killings," she said.

Guldal Aksit, the minister in charge of women's issues, added that attitudes are what really need to be addressed to stop the deeply entrenched practice. "These are not problems that we can solve on paper by changing laws ... We need to educate society," she said.

Women's groups believe that a number of suicides among young women in the southeast are actually murders by relatives who believe they are saving the family honor. Often the youngest member of the family is forced to carry out the killings in the belief that a youth would get a less-stringent punishment.

On Wednesday, authorities charged two brothers with murder after they shot their 22-year-old sister in the head in her hospital bed, where she was recovering from an earlier attack by them. The woman had had a child out of wedlock.

Last year, a pregnant woman was reportedly stoned to death by her family after having an affair and buried in a pauper's grave after her family refused to hold a funeral.

In the latest case, newspapers said Halitogullari was abducted in Istanbul on her way back from a trip to the supermarket and raped over six days. She was rescued by police and returned to her family.

The murder came to light this week but it was not clear when it took place.

In a rare confession, Mehmet Hatipogullari told police he and other relatives took the girl to an aunt's home where he strangled her, ignoring her pleas and her cries.

"I decided to kill her because our honor was dirtied," the newspaper Sabah quoted the father as saying. "I didn't listen to her pleas, I wrapped the wire around her neck and pulled at it until she died."

He said he buried her body beneath a chicken coop, which upset his other children, and later reburied her in a forest.

The newspaper said Halitogullari also had planned to kill his daughter's rapist.

Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/T/TURKEY_HONOR_KILLING?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=INTERNATIO NAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Stoopider
Tue, 05-04-2004, 10:08 AM
Thats sad. What a backward country they live in. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Swallow Your Soul
Tue, 05-04-2004, 10:35 AM
Yeah, that sucks, fucking ridiculous i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

r3n
Tue, 05-04-2004, 11:02 AM
stupid ppl

Mut
Tue, 05-04-2004, 12:08 PM
the father should be strangled to death with wire also for his punishment.

Xollence
Tue, 05-04-2004, 12:21 PM
How can a country allow it? That is just so wrong.

SK
Tue, 05-04-2004, 01:01 PM
i know thats so disgusting. the girl didnt choose to be raped. and only maximum of 24 years? that should be life if you ask me, or death penalty.

Uzumaki Naruto
Tue, 05-04-2004, 05:53 PM
WTF is wrong with them, i mean did she chose to be kidnapped and raped, how the fuk is that going to restore honor back to their family thats only putting them into more shame, if i was there i woudve have stangled the father myself

Elessar
Tue, 05-04-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by: Xollence
How can a country allow it? That is just so wrong.
How could a country allow racial segregation up into the 1960ies?

It happens all the time, countries trying to overcome their ancient traditions. Why should it work on instant for them when it took others generations?

Gods_Son
Tue, 05-04-2004, 10:26 PM
Every country has something they're not proud of, but people who blindly follow such foolish traditions are just stupid. It's not something that will change instantly, and there's probably nothing we can do, so there's no reason to worry about it. I'm sure Turkey and the other countries will find a way to work it out for themselves.

bwabes
Tue, 05-04-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by: Stoopider
Thats sad. What a backward country they live in. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

That's really a uninformed opinion. Just from this one article, you've made huge assumptions about Turkish society. Honestly, it's not much different than here. My cousin lives in Turkey, and when I visited it was pretty much normal. So you get about a dozen of those a year. But how many killings are there in the US because of a girlfriend or wife cheating or being suspected of cheating? That's the same thing.

Also, need I point out, that the US has such a ridiculously high murder rate, but we don't consider it "backward." Turkey actually has a smaller murder rate per capita than the US, but that should really come as no surprise.

Mut
Tue, 05-04-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by: bwabes
But how many killings are there in the US because of a girlfriend or wife cheating or being suspected of cheating? That's the same thing.

i'm gonna have to disagree here on that one. a father killing his own child because she was raped is totally different than a husband killing his wife hecause she has cheated on him.

lionheart1012000
Wed, 05-05-2004, 12:42 AM
god...this is just...jeeze, these people should be tortured to death, suffocation isnt enough.

r3n
Wed, 05-05-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by: bwabes


Originally posted by: Stoopider
Thats sad. What a backward country they live in. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

That's really a uninformed opinion. Just from this one article, you've made huge assumptions about Turkish society. Honestly, it's not much different than here. My cousin lives in Turkey, and when I visited it was pretty much normal. So you get about a dozen of those a year. But how many killings are there in the US because of a girlfriend or wife cheating or being suspected of cheating? That's the same thing.

Also, need I point out, that the US has such a ridiculously high murder rate, but we don't consider it "backward." Turkey actually has a smaller murder rate per capita than the US, but that should really come as no surprise.

thats true. but atleast in america women are generally given a reasonable amount of respect and not treated like objects which a man owns when he weds her. then again this is probably only a small percentage of the population in turkey that act in such a stupid manor. im sure lots of countries have things that are fucked up, apart from canada, canada owns. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif (im not canadian btw!)

SK
Wed, 05-05-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by: bwabes


Originally posted by: Stoopider
Thats sad. What a backward country they live in. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

That's really a uninformed opinion. Just from this one article, you've made huge assumptions about Turkish society. Honestly, it's not much different than here. My cousin lives in Turkey, and when I visited it was pretty much normal. So you get about a dozen of those a year. But how many killings are there in the US because of a girlfriend or wife cheating or being suspected of cheating? That's the same thing.

Also, need I point out, that the US has such a ridiculously high murder rate, but we don't consider it "backward." Turkey actually has a smaller murder rate per capita than the US, but that should really come as no surprise.

Your defending those in Turkey who kill their own daughters, nieces, or cousins because they were raped? Are you on drugs? Some psycho killing his girl because she cheated is totally different from a father murdering his daughter because she was kidnapped and brutally raped for a week. Here are some facts for ya. The US murder rate is 5 per 100k, Turkey's is 3 per 100k, the US population is 290, 342, 554 while Turkey's is 68, 100, 469. Turkey has killed over 2,000,000 Armenians from 1945-1984. Hmmm

bwabes
Wed, 05-05-2004, 01:50 PM
I'm not defending them, I'm just saying that you can't judge the entire country because of a few psychos. And, in reference to the Armenian issue, not to justify it, but how many Vietnamese did Americans kill in less than a decade?

SK
Wed, 05-05-2004, 02:18 PM
I think theres a difference between 'RACIAL CLEANSING' and WAR.
More Numbers

Number of North Vietnamese soldiers killed 444,000.
Number of North Vietnamese civilans killed 65,000.
Total number of North Vietnamese and Viet Kong casualties 509,000.
Hmmm

Legendary Nin
Wed, 05-05-2004, 02:34 PM
Turkey is fucked,why do we have one of the greatest foods named after such a shitty country? Turkey has always been messed and always will be.

bwabes
Wed, 05-05-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
I think theres a difference between 'RACIAL CLEANSING' and WAR.
More Numbers

Number of North Vietnamese soldiers killed 444,000.
Number of North Vietnamese civilans killed 65,000.
Total number of North Vietnamese and Viet Kong casualties 509,000.
Hmmm

So massacring civilians is okay with you? It's exactly the same, and the numbers per year are worse for the US anyway. I won't post in this thread anymore, since it really just seems that lots of people here are bigoted against the middle east anyway.

EDIT:Hmmmm

hiddenpookie
Wed, 05-05-2004, 02:43 PM
i dont care what country or religon does that..
choking your blood is wrong!

SK
Wed, 05-05-2004, 03:25 PM
omfg murdering 2,000,000 people for 'racial cleansing' is the same to you as 65,000 people dieing during war? anyway my sig doesnt seem to be working does anyone know a free image hosting site, angelfire just puts an angelfire pic and geocities doesnt seem to work at all.
grrrr now my avatar isnt working either

Xollence
Wed, 05-05-2004, 04:59 PM
Why does it seem like people in this thread are trying to defend the Turkish tradition by pointing out other countries' problems? Yeah, other countries do a lot of other bad shit too, but does that mean it's okay for Turkey to allow this? What the father did was wrong plain and simple.

MemnochTheCaT
Wed, 05-05-2004, 05:33 PM
I agree Xollence in the regard that guilt of OTHER parties, whether more or less, does not excuse in any way immoral actions under any circumstances. I must say, however, that I didn't see anything to the effect that the Turkish government condones these honor killings, but rather that it is a dirty old tradition that is unfortunately still happening today.

It seems that these crimes are mostly being perpetrated by old-school rural citizens, so what the Turkish are seeing is probably similar to what the US saw in the deep south in the 60s onwards. Even though the legislation had reformed, crimes of racial prejudice continued to occur at very high levels, never totally disappearing. There are still KKK-dominated areas in Georgia, etc in the 21st century!

One parallel in all of these unfortunate situations, is that the offenders almost always show no remorse, and believe fully that what they are doing is right .. usually for reasons of 'tradition' or 'honor'. Religion (often the misinterpreted messages that are spewed by twisted, hateful leaders) is the core of many of these criminal's belief systems that they base this behaviour upon.

In the end, it is the lack of education, and the propensity of the human spirit to foster a bitter and committed hatred for one another that makes such horrors possible. Humanity has beaten, starved, tortured, raped, persecuted, and murdered one another for it's entire history with a bloodthirsty vengeance .. it will never stop .. only reduce gradually .. that's all we can hope for.

Gods_Son
Wed, 05-05-2004, 06:06 PM
There are plenty of foolish people all over the world, it's impossible to stop these problems all at once. Hope for gradual change, and learn to deal with the stupidity until then.

hiroshi
Sat, 05-08-2004, 07:23 PM
The whole thing seems really stupid to me. But i guess that's simply because i'm an 'outsider' as it were.

Samurai's would commit suicide in order to make amends to their sense of honour. This is half-way there, in the fact they go to exteme lengths for honour, it's just unfortunate it's to 'someone else' rather than themselves. But then, if they did have the same ritual as the Japanese Samurai, would it still seem as bad if it's the daughters commit suicide, instead of their father killing them just for honour?

People do things that seem pretty strange to me over such a thing as honour. It's not really something i ever really understood, about taking life for the sake of honour. But this is the way cultures go i guess. You can't change a civilization by complaining about it, unless you happen to rule the country or a country who is highly respected by the country with the problem. Also, you shouldn't make judgements simply because of the bad stuff that is involved in their culteral rights. I think the only people who have the right to make such judgements on the whole thing, and if it is ok or not, should be the people who are born with that tradition. (The Turks).

We can observe, comment, and state our disagreements i guess. But we shouldn't insult, suggest they deserve death/life imprisonment, or make a general comment on the whole country (Stereotypical views), just because their culter differs so greatly from our own.

I agree, i don't like the whole thing either. I think it's totally wrong in my view and it should be stopped. But i don't know the full story on their reasons, and i believe that you should respect culteral differences regardless of what it is and no matter how much you dislike them. You can't have everything in life the way you want it =/

SK
Sat, 05-08-2004, 07:56 PM
lol you are correct in some ways i will give you that. i do respect other culters and their traditions, but i will NOT respect them when they are evil. and to me, killing your daughter for getting raped is an evil act, and i will say that they do deserve life imprisonment, or deserve to be killed themselves.

Assertn
Sun, 05-09-2004, 11:05 AM
evil is such a......subjective concept

Stoopider
Sun, 05-09-2004, 11:56 AM
Wow!! I've triggered a heated arguement!!

I must be special. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif . (Sorry. Too long for me to read and join you guys).

All I could comprehend was AssetrnFailure's last comments.

But the cause of me saying that is also due to the Shariah laws, partly. Once they've lost their virginity,their life is more or less over. (Thus Saving family honour rubbish). Nobody wants used goods. Well thats their thinking. And their laws are extremely strict.

When I talk about backward, I mean their beliefs and ideologies concerning the honour killing rubish.(Therefore like the minister of womens issues say, they need to be educated).

But yeah. Sorry If i'm being stereotypical about them.

Over there they value Virginity like we value Naruto. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif