Chouji\Shika

[Tsukiyomi]

Does anyone think that if chouji were to die that shika would become even stronger. Because most anime scenarios follow that if a close friend/ relative dies usually the person becomes really strong. Im thinking that after this little sasuke arc goes by we wont see shika for awhile, maybe like he will train and learn a little more shadow techniques and etc... . What do you think ? i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[hiten mitsurugi]

NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.

[Uberbaka]

Well, the theme of the manga/anime is that they get strong while protecting those who are precious to them (my prrrrrecious *ahem*). Hence shika would be stronger fighting alongside chouji and having them protecting eachother, however i'll be disapointed if chouji makes it... Not because i don't like him, but because ending his story here will leave him with honor, and the whole butterfly thing, final suicide attack, and someone has to die damnit...

[Lithonite]

I have to admit if chouji does cash out now, he went out well. yes the butterfly was a nice touch. chouji is alright, i like him i like him alot- but someone has to go out and if its Neji... well what a waiste of a super genious

[Himura_san]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.


Chouji dying can be a true catalyst for Shika's change in personality.
He may think that if he were stronger or better trained he could have prevented the death and thus he will train only harder to deny further deaths of friends/allies.
I guess you took the pessimistic point of view on this one.

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.

Kinda pessimistic there, aren't ya?

[Stoopider]

Originally posted by: Hotsuma


Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.

Kinda pessimistic there, aren't ya?

Chouji's the only one for him. Haven't you realise how Shika hates gurls? It's because he has Chouji.

[Death BOO Z]

Chouji's dying will really help Shikamaru's growth, up to now, shikamaru thinks as if he's playing a chess game, he hadn't realized the meaning of losing yet (he was never hurt, or in a real near death situation), each time he was in trouble, he quitted or somebody came to save him...

If chouji dies it will be a real impact on the 'game playing' Shikamaru, maybe he'll start using his byraingan for better purporesess (spelling!).

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Hotsuma


Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.

Kinda pessimistic there, aren't ya?

Nah, just the reality of the situation. Pessimistic would be Chouji dieing in the first place. I think he's going to be just fine, at least I hope. I want to see multi-size chouji vs Gamabunta. I think it would be so cool if Chouji could wield Gamabunta's Katana.

[samsonlonghair]

Shikamaru showing initiative? Blasphemy! He is a lazy bastard; that's why I like him.

[Raven]

It's true, if he started working hard, he'd lose all this character charm. The laziness is what makes Shika Shika.

[Everon]

I might sound sadistic, but I for one would like to so Shikamaru lose big time. Shikamaru seems invincible because he is always able to counter his opponents with some form of strategy. In order for his character to grow, he needs to lose BIG time. If choji dies in the process, I think it'll be for the better. The manga needs to show that we can't be lazy and still manage to stay on top of things.

Then again I'm a rock lee fanboy. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[Zansatsu]

Originally posted by: Everon
I might sound sadistic, but I for one would like to so Shikamaru lose big time. Shikamaru seems invincible because he is always able to counter his opponents with some form of strategy. In order for his character to grow, he needs to lose BIG time. If choji dies in the process, I think it'll be for the better. The manga needs to show that we can't be lazy and still manage to stay on top of things.

I agree. He could use a little bit of motivation. At least for some time.

[hiten mitsurugi]

It still bothers me how Shikamaru defeated Tayuya's Genjutsu by breaking his pinky. The only ways to avoid genjutsu (that I've seen so far) is:
1. kai (something like that) deflect genjutsu, used by Sakura, Gai, and Kakashi during the sound/sand invasion.
2. Severe pain, like breaking of a finger, shown by Shikamaru.

#2 contradicts the introduction of mange.
What I mean is that the brain perceives pain in the same manner. Whether the pain is really there (broken finger) or the pain itself is just a placebo (mange). So if rule #2 applies, then (just an example) the first time that Kakshi was stabbed during mange, he would have broke out of mange because the pain would have been too much. It would not have occured 1000 times (however many times Itachi stated), because of the pain Kakashi would have snapped out of it.

[Toruxxx]

didnt Oro try something like that on sasuke and he stabed his self so he could get away it wasnt just shika who done severe pain to there selfs to make em move.

[Hyuga Koji]

Oro was using body-binding and Sasuke had to use pain from the stab to overcome the fear of Oro's killing intent.

Shika broke out of the genjutsu because his body melting was supposed to psyche him out and was not felt as pain so he used real pain to escape.

Mange creates a situation that is so real that the brain perceives it as what is happening.

This is similar to the matrix, or the work of a powerful telepath in X-men.

[hiten mitsurugi]

That doesn't clarify anything. It's just restating what I just stated.

During genjutsu, of course the brain perceives it to be happening, hence the usage of the word illusion.

So the question is if mange produces pain by erroneously deceiving the brain, then why can't you snap out of it because of the pain? Just like how Shika broke his finger to produce enough pain to snap out of it.

Do you see how it contradicts itself?

[xtort]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
So the question is if mange produces pain by erroneously deceiving the brain, then why can't you snap out of it because of the pain? Just like how Shika broke his finger to produce enough pain to snap out of it.

Do you see how it contradicts itself?


********NOTE********* This crap is extrapolating real-world stuff into a manga. By the end of this whole thing, I said to myself, "who the f' cares?!" Hopefully, so will you. *********NOTE*********


It doesn't contradict itself at all. Think of genjutsu as (externally-)enforced dreaming.

Have you ever had a dream that was extremely realistic, and had someone or some sound wake you up? Or really, have you ever been brought out of a dream for any external (real world) reason, be it sound, heat, or the feeling of someone being close by? Well, that's because your brain segregates information when it's in a dream state and is capable of this because dreaming is performed in one portion of the brain (stimulating our optic and aural centers to allow us to be able to see w/ our eyes closed and hear when there is no sound) and real world occurrences happen in another.

The more real a dream is, the less aware you become of what's happening in the outside world (i.e. deep sleep).

The whole "pain thing" Kishimoto repeatedly toys with is the last vestige of the outside world forcing its way past the dream to your consciousness. The same way you would be awoken from a dream if someone broke your pinky is the same reason Shika beat the genjutsu. The same reason dreams can be scary and painfulled is the reasons Mangekyo can induce pain.

-I'm a juicy lamer, out.

[BakaShinji]

actually xtort, the brain doesn't segregate

imagined visual imagery uses the same cortical pathways as actual imagery - save the V1 primary visual cortex that is connected to the eyes. Extensive EEG, MEG, and fMRI testing has shown this. and i woudl say i am conscious when i dream - i can pretty much decide where/what i'm doing.

but i think you have a point xtort.

in naruto world it seems that there are degrees of genjutsu.

also a quick breakdown of the types of genjutsu's used.
orochimaru used paralysis in his jutsu
itachi used pain IN his jutsu

it would be silly if you could scare yourself out of paralysis, wouldn't it?
the same way it would be silly to induce pain to avoid pain.

what orochimaru and tayuya did, shouldn't be compared to itachi's tsukiyomi.
by default itachi's jutsu is on a level of its own - and if you don't know what that default is, i'm gonna slap you.

[xtort]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
actually xtort, the brain doesn't segregate

imagined visual imagery uses the same cortical pathways as actual imagery - save the V1 primary visual cortex that is connected to the eyes. Extensive EEG, MEG, and fMRI testing has shown this. and i woudl say i am conscious when i dream - i can pretty much decide where/what i'm doing.


Hehe, you missed my point. i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif! It was that the dreaming itself is where the brain segregates. I said in my post that the portion of the brain responsible for dreaming "stimulates our optic and aural centers"... meaning that we actually "see" these dream-things and "hear" these dream-things, but that they are made up by the portion of our brain responsible for dreaming.

This segregation is easily demonstrable by asking someone to lie to you. When someone is lying, they will access the part of their brain (a la "segregation") responsible for creative thought and will actually look upwards and to the left (if I remember the direction correctly). When someone is relating fact to you, or telling you something that they distinctly remember, to recall these memories they will look upward and to the right.

I won't write back about this. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif If you feel the need to comment some more on brain segregation, please do. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

-xtort_REALLY_outthistime

[CapsuleCorpJX]

Nope, Shika isn't the emotional type. He may feel sad his friend died, but I can't imagine him crying or even being moved to train harder because of it. Besides it wasn't because he was weak that his friend died, it was because Chouji had to use that last pill.



Originally posted by: Himura_san

Chouji dying can be a true catalyst for Shika's change in personality.
He may think that if he were stronger or better trained he could have prevented the death and thus he will train only harder to deny further deaths of friends/allies.
I guess you took the pessimistic point of view on this one.

[Everon]

Originally posted by: CapsuleCorpJX
Nope, Shika isn't the emotional type. He may feel sad his friend died, but I can't imagine him crying or even being moved to train harder because of it. Besides it wasn't because he was weak that his friend died, it was because Chouji had to use that last pill.



Shika isn't the emotional type?? Let me just say that no matter how unemotional a person may be, having thier best friend die will absolutely affect them. Shikamaru might not change because he thought he directly caused Choji's death, he may just feel responsible in some way because he wanted Choji to join, he trusted Choji to finish that guy off, he didn't train enough in the past with Choji to make him stronger, etc.

I just want to see a change in Shikamaru because I want him to become a more rounded character. I like Shikamaru's character, but he needs to evolve if Kishimoto's gonna spend so much time on this character.

[Gods_Son]

Originally posted by: Everon
I just want to see a change in Shikamaru because I want him to become a more rounded character. I like Shikamaru's character, but he needs to evolve if Kishimoto's gonna spend so much time on this character.

I agree, Shikamaru just being an unemotional, lazy bastard would be lame after a while. Without a significant goal to achieve, most characters get boring. Sasuke wants to kill Itachi, Naruto wants to be hokage, and Shikamaru needs to have something to strive for, otherwise he shouldn't get as much screen time.

[tommy salami]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
That doesn't clarify anything. It's just restating what I just stated.

During genjutsu, of course the brain perceives it to be happening, hence the usage of the word illusion.

So the question is if mange produces pain by erroneously deceiving the brain, then why can't you snap out of it because of the pain? Just like how Shika broke his finger to produce enough pain to snap out of it.

Do you see how it contradicts itself?

i think the key to geting out of genjutsuis to focus on the real. all outside feeling could be fake including what u r seeing and feeling so to get out of it you need to inflict a feeling on your self so you know its real then u can get out

[Nara Tonymaru]

Originally posted by: Stoopider


Originally posted by: Hotsuma


Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
NO, shika will not become stronger if Chouji died. Shika's lazy, he doesn't want to train. Why would it take someone's death in order for you to sincerely train? That and he admitted that he just wanted to become a regular ninja, with a regular women, to have a regular life.

Also consider that since Chouji is his best friend, he may spiral into depression. Since he wasn't strong enough to help him. It was his decision, his and his alone (since he was team leader), to have them fight one on one. He may be guilt ridden and stop training all togeter.

Kinda pessimistic there, aren't ya?

Chouji's the only one for him. Haven't you realise how Shika hates gurls? It's because he has Chouji.

He hates girls, not pussy, there's a difference, and I know from experience. Anyways, it's really hard to say, basing it on my own personality ( I'm alot like Shikamaru, seriously. ) he may go through a momentary change, and then return to his normal self after awhile, besides, him getting stronger would be a little out of character, he may get more serious about things, but as for brawn I doubt it, probably work more on strategies and other mind skills.