Ranklist [Archive] - Gotwoot Forums

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:22 PM

To answer this is necessary to know if Itachi killed all his family before or after the sealing of the kyuubi.
If it was before, we will never know until they show it on the store.
If it was after, he can't. If any of his clan was alive, we can easily assume that:
a. Somebody from his clan, or even Itachi himself when he still was on the good side, knew how to do the mange sharingan.
b. If any member of the Uchiha clan was alive, he/she would be fighting for Konoha.
c. They'd have used the mange sharingan against the kyuubi.
d. If they used the mange sharingan against the kyuubi, it didn't work.

Therefore, if any of the Uchiha clan was alive, except by Sasuke who doesn't know how to do mange sharingan, probably it would have been used in the fight against the kyuubi, and it didn't work. And if it didn't work then, the hypothesis that it will work against the kyuubi is not based on reality.
Since I don't know when the Uchiha clan was wipped out of the face of the earth, except for Sasuke, I don't have data enough to make any assumption of this kind. And if it wasn't stated in the story, nobody has.

Mut

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by: Neji-Aniki-sama
To answer this is necessary to know if Itachi killed all his family before or after the sealing of the kyuubi.

itachi killed his clan and family like 5, give or take 1, years after kyubi was sealed byt he fourth. it says in the manga.

if what i said isn't what you guys were talking about, then nm.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
[
itachi killed his clan and family like 5, give or take 1, years after kyubi was sealed byt he fourth. it says in the manga.

Well, then for me, the question is answered. There were Uchiha clan members during the time the kyuubi was sealed. And if the whole village of Konoha was fighting the monster, certainly there were Uchihas present at the fight. And, likely, one or more knew the mange sharingan and likely tried to use it on the kyuubi. And it obviously didn't work.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:41 PM

Lol, all Dazzz has to do is bring up Itachi and everyone starts debating. What a sorry state of affairs. People, if you can't see that supernatural forces (kyubi) always beat out natural forces (Itachi) then it isn't even worth talking about. Hence the term prefix super in supernatural.

Mange is useless against a demon that with one swing of a tail could topple over mountains, create tsunamis, etc. Man has always been at the whim of nature, let alone a demon. If you're betting on mange saving Itachi's behind, then you should do yourself a favor and drive around blindfolded. You know that stupidity kills, or maybe you don't. Try it and let me know how it turns out!!!

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
Lol, all Dazzz has to do is bring up Itachi and everyone startes debating. What a sorry state of affairs. If you can't see that supernatural forces (kyubi) always beat out natural forces (Itachi) then it isn't even worth talking about. Hence the term prefix super.

Well, at first, it was amusing. But soon, it becomes predicable and boring...
I mean, reading Itachi is strong and every other character on the show sucks over and over again...
we kinda know that, at least, why not Itachi is handsome, Itachi dresses well, they should rename the series Itachi, now that would be more creative...

Jman

Mon, 04-19-2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by: jing
i would like to see a match between itachi and kyubi.
i hope he unseal it from Naruto and challenges kyubi.

i don't think that would be much of a fight there. kyubi would claw, stomp, bite, chew and spit out itachi.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-19-2004, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by: animemaster

i don't think that would be much of a fight there. kyubi would claw, stomp, bite, chew and spit out itachi.

Likely. That sounds like a very reasonable statement.
Then again, it's also true that one is entitled to live in denial...

jing

Mon, 04-19-2004, 05:40 PM

Im guessing kyubi was so huge that he missed those tiny japanese sharingan eyes =P

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-19-2004, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by: jing
Im guessing kyubi was so huge that he missed those tiny japanese sharingan eyes =P

LOL...Gawds you just don't know how I needed a laugh, today...thanks
Well, came to think... they do kinda have big eyes in the show.
But, tiny eyed are not exactly the words that came to my mind when I looked at this pic...http://www.angelfire.com/bug/quexbot/Saske.jpg

Raven

Tue, 04-20-2004, 12:15 AM

Hang on, is this ranking system supposed to be who you think would win in battle, or simply your favourite characters? It was never specified.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Tue, 04-20-2004, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by: CmDr_RavEn
Hang on, is this ranking system supposed to be who you think would win in battle, or simply your favourite characters? It was never specified.

Let's put it this way: my fav character is Hinata and in my particular dreamworld, she can kick everybody's ass, kyuubi included. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
Speaking of ass-kicking, didn't Gai kick Itachi's ass? Huh, I guess I have to re-read the manga...at least he put a stop on the bastard, isn't it?
So Gai is stronger than Itachi, and so is Jiraiya for that matter...

Gods_Son

Tue, 04-20-2004, 12:37 AM

Neither of them actually kicked Itachi's ass in any way, but let's not get into another debate about him. There are already so many threads that get fucked up because of the same Itachi issues that keep coming up, and there's even a near 30 page thread dedicated just to him. Soon the anime people will be having discussions about him also, it's going to be horrible.

GokuSonGoku

Tue, 04-20-2004, 05:54 AM

Ok... U want specified...

The one who will win the battle... NOT ur favorite character

Legendary Nin

Tue, 04-20-2004, 06:03 AM

Gai never made it to ANBU-Itachi is the strongest Uchiha to ever live.No one knows if he created the mange sharingan or not,but it is known by age 9 he was light years ahead of any other Uchiha that lived.You have no basis whether mange sharingan would work or not,you assume it wouldn't,but seals for some reason worked right? Even the fourth had all that time to kill to seal Kyuubi,your saying Itachi wouldn't be able to look at his eyes once? Even though this would take a fraction of the time it would to seal.The 4th sealing him is so much more unrealistic compared to Itachi doing his genjutsu.Remember,all the fox was,was a demon,not a ninja.Genjutsu would work,it wouldn't be able to magiclly repell it.

AkimichiChouji

Tue, 04-20-2004, 09:03 AM

1.Gamabunta
2.Gaara's final form (forget name)
3.Naruto
4.Sasuka (infected)
5.Kyubi

Death BOO Z

Tue, 04-20-2004, 09:23 AM

Actually, i don't believe that the menge sharingan would tickle Kyubi...

The mengekyou is an illuison attack that makes you see and feel the illusion, yet i doubt that Itachi could illusionize (create an illusion of) something which could hurt Kyubi...

what could he do? make Kyubi feel swords cutting his ultra though mountain crushing body? the fox is so big that it's hard to miss him with any weapon, so it's obvious that mortal weapons don't do shit to him...
next on line would be mental pain, which won't work cuz Itachi doesn't know anything about Kyubi and his mental weaknesses (and that's only if he has weaknesses, or mentality).

Kyubi was stopped with an etheral being (death) becuase it was the only way, if he was weak enough to be illuisioned out of existence, he wouldn't have lived long enough to become a legend...

that's what i think, at least...

GokuSonGoku

Tue, 04-20-2004, 11:05 AM

Errh... Seriously AkimichiChouji Naruto infront of Kyubi and Sasuke??!?!? AND Gamabunta?!? AND SHUKAKU?!?

Damn that rank list is all wrong

hiten mitsurugi

Wed, 04-21-2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by: Legendary Nin
Gai never made it to ANBU-Itachi is the strongest Uchiha to ever live.No one knows if he created the mange sharingan or not,but it is known by age 9 he was light years ahead of any other Uchiha that lived.You have no basis whether mange sharingan would work or not,you assume it wouldn't,but seals for some reason worked right? Even the fourth had all that time to kill to seal Kyuubi,your saying Itachi wouldn't be able to look at his eyes once? Even though this would take a fraction of the time it would to seal.The 4th sealing him is so much more unrealistic compared to Itachi doing his genjutsu.Remember,all the fox was,was a demon,not a ninja.Genjutsu would work,it wouldn't be able to magiclly repell it.

LOL...if all it takes is Mange, a form of genjutsu, to defeat Kyubi. Then I propose that Gai can kill both Itachi and Kyubi, together, with one KONOHA SENPUU.

Lithonite

Wed, 04-21-2004, 07:39 PM

i do not think the 4th was stronger than any of the 3, nor Itachi- remember being chosn for hokage has a lot more envolved than jsut assesing power. The reason the 4th was chosen over Oro, was not a issue os strength but rather an isue of character.

we should even include any of the yoma, or any of the summons.

i wouls definately put Itachi, and the 3 on the same level
outside of that noone has that much of a huge diffrence from the rest to put a linear lvl ranking on any of the character in Naruto, people please leave the static boring world of DBZ

hornetmike

Wed, 04-21-2004, 08:41 PM

Who said that the 4th wasn't stronger in the manga or anime. as a matter of fact it hasn't really come up. but the 4th was considered a highly genious ninja. he might not have been the first choice for hokage because he doesn't have as much experience and wisdom as Oro. But if he was stronger than the 3rd, then i'm pretty sure that he could hold his own against Oro. Probably even beat him considering he beat kyubi. We'll never know though.

avmoghe

Wed, 04-21-2004, 09:01 PM

This is going off topic... but..

Orochimaru was the third Hokage's FIRST choice for Hokage. A Hokage is defined to be strongest ninja in the village, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).

He wanted to pick orochimaru over jiraiya, the 4th, tsunade, and the other jounins.

The ONLY reason orochimaru wasn't picked was because of he was killing his own people.

It should be pretty from that alone that Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya, Tsunade, the 4th.

If anyone has any difinitive evidence that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru... lemme know.

Note: "he sealed the demon" doesn't count

lol i wear shirts

Wed, 04-21-2004, 10:05 PM

1. kyubi
2. tom selleck
3. kevin sorbo
4. some azn guy with a hat

hahaha dealt

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-21-2004, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by: avmoghe
This is going off topic... but..

Orochimaru was the third Hokage's FIRST choice for Hokage. A Hokage is defined to be strongest ninja in the village, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).

He wanted to pick orochimaru over jiraiya, the 4th, tsunade, and the other jounins.

The ONLY reason orochimaru wasn't picked was because of he was killing his own people.

It should be pretty from that alone that Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya, Tsunade, the 4th.

If anyone has any difinitive evidence that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru... lemme know.

Note: "he sealed the demon" doesn't count

I don't think combat ability is the only thing necessary to be Hokage, in fact .. it shouldn't even be the top thing required. Think about it, most of the Hokage's responsibilities are related to leadership decisions, not fighting battles .. sort of like how Shikamaru got Chuunin but Naruto did not, even though Naruto is MUCH more powerful in battle. Also look at how the 3rd basically had no taijutsu technique (yes I know he was old, but imagine if he had Rasengan when he was holding Oro ..) .. this leads me to believe that the 3rd wanted Oro to be the next hokage because of his superior intellect and potential leadership abilities.

The 4th seemed to have been a highly combat-oriented warrior, with high-level attacks like Rasengen, Boss Gamabunta summoning (Jiraiya apparently couldn't control Gamabunta hehe!), and even long-range sealing if we are to believe what we saw in episode 1. To tell you the truth, neither Oro or the 3rd were very impressive in combat .. but they are both brilliant characters.

So my feeling is that the 4th was probably much tougher in combat than Oro, but probably wasn't half as cunning .. which could be critical when dealing with the difficult diplomatic and economic issues facing Konoha. Alas, the 3rd had to abandon his hopes for Oro because of his twisted (nonexistent?) morals.

Another thing to consider .. the 3rd VERY NEARLY killed Oro, even though ...

(1)- He was extremely old
(2)- Had to fight in that closed area, probably a big disadvantage not being able to choose terrain
(3)- Had to fight off TWO SUMMONED HOKAGES just to get to Oro ..

This seems more than enough to convince me that if Oro hadn't had the 3rd outnumbered, that the 3rd would have killed Oro deader than Michael Jackson's career. I conclude in all likelyhood that the 3rd was a stronger fighter than Oro ever was, and the 4th was probably easily stronger than BOTH.

In any case, none of the evidence is absolutely conclusive, so we will just have to wait to see if we ever learn more.

avmoghe

Thu, 04-22-2004, 02:05 AM

I thought the Hokage was defined to be the strongest ninja in the village. I'm almost sure that thats a direct quote from the opening chapters of the manga.

I've never doubted that the third hokage in his prime was stronger than Orochimaru. He says it himeslf saying something like ten years ago you could have killed me. Your own post has other indications as well supporting this.

What I AM doubting is whether the 4th hokage, Jiraiya, Tsunade etc are stronger than Orochimaru.

I've yet to see any strong evidence that either of those people are stronger than Orochimaru. I mean, Orochimaru is a 'once in decades genius' with craploads of potential... I doubt either of the others can match up to him.

And then again we have the fact that Orochimaru was the third's first choice for the next hokage.

So, until I see some indications that the 4th was any better.. I'll stick to believing that Orochimaru is the strongest, excepting the 3rd in his prime (and Itachi if Orochimaru's statement is to be believed).

I will agree with you however that the evidence is far from concrete.

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-22-2004, 03:28 PM

I think the Hokage being 'the strongest ninja of the village' is meant to be a measurement of the total package (Intellect, Patience, Honor/Heart, Fighting Skill), not just simple physical combat ability. Similar to how almost any political leader (even ex-military) isn't expected to be the toughest fighter around.

Think of it in terms of the Sand Village .. Gaara/Shukaku is almost unquestionably the most powerful fighting force there, but are in NO way capable of performing the duties of Kazekage, due to being .. oh, what's that word? Oh yeah .. INSANE i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif This ENTIRELY contadicts the notion that the Kages are necessarily the strongest fighter.

Similarly, seeing as how Oro almost got owned by the 3rd, even when he had him outnumbered with TWO other hokages, and the 3rd really wasn't even impressive at all in that battle (no taijutsu really, no massive summoning, nothing that really represented much of a threat other than the sealing) .. Oro looks really weak.

This leads me to believe that Oro's strengths are his intellect and knowledge of jutsu, he just doesn't seem to be much of a physical fighter. The 3rd, 4th, Jiraiya, and probably Itachi are all head and shoulders above Oro in terms of fighting, but Oro is trickier, and uses his wide knowledge and intellect to overcome most of his weaknesses where he can find ways around his weak points.

As I said, there is ample evidence that Hokages are NOT necessarily the most powerful fighter, but rather the best choice for leader of their nation

Hotsuma

Thu, 04-22-2004, 03:47 PM

1. The administrator that bans the starters ass for asking a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from said thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

2. The moderator that deletes or closes this thread, because, it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

3. The forum members who give answers not pertaining to the starting topic, or just giving out purposely wrong opinions, because they know it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

4. The forum members who don't pay attention at all, because they know it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

5. The forum members who actually answers this question seriously, despite knowing that it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

Lithonite

Thu, 04-22-2004, 03:49 PM

Being chosen as Hokage, has more to do with than raw combat strength. As i said before Oro, Jiraiya were almost undoubted stronger in raw combat power than the 4th. but they lacked the required character to be Hokage. for isntance no one could defeat Kyubi- he was just too strong. the 4th realized the only thing that could be done would be to imprison/Seal him unfortunately the only sealing method strong enough to contain the kyubi was one that was going to cost the 4th his life...but knowing this did not stop him from performing it. Oro, would never have gone out for the village, and Jiraiya although he has noble intension probubly would not have thought to use a self sacrificing Seal- from what i am gatheringhe is too much like Naruto to go out and "give up" by using a move like that.

Being chosen for hokage is a lot like being chosen as chunnin. look at Shikimaru home dude is down to take one for the team and the village( yes Naruto too but he would try to fight to the end, where as Shikimaru would just realize the end ) No Shikimaru by far does not have the hghest raw combat strength, he has lowest chakra, and only one offensive jusu thus far- but he is a super genious that is cunning and comepltely attentive of the team and goal. making him an excellent leader.

I imagine the 4th was much the same very compasionante and strong ehough to be called hokage but not necessarily the monster Itachi, or any of the 3 are.

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-22-2004, 04:24 PM

Lithonite, that's pretty much what I was trying to say i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Although, I'm not sure where to put the 4th at in terms of fighting ability, since we know so *very* little. With skills like rasengan and gamabunta control, I might place him above Oro ..

avmoghe

Thu, 04-22-2004, 04:49 PM

.. I'm having trouble following your logic.

You're looking at what happened in the 3rd vs Orochimaru fight... and using that to put the 4TH hokage over Orochimaru in terms of fighting ability?

I do not understand how Orochimaru's performance vs the third hokage can be used as any sort of an indication of ability as compared with the FOURTH hokage.
---------

Gaara may be the most powerful being in the village.. but there's a very good reason why he isn't hokage... he's insane.. as you said i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif I assumed that you would agree that insanity disqualifies candidacy for Hokage... much like a direct refusal to be a hokage.

So lemme take away the assumptions I made...
a better way to define the word Hokage would be: the strongest non-insane ninja in the village who doesn't refuse to be a Hokage.

Gaara's insanity immediately disqualifies him from being Hokage.

So.. let me get to the point... to provide a counter example, you would have to find a case where an individual is stronger than the village Hokage and is also not insane, and wants to be Hokage... and yet he isn't a the Hokage.

So if you can show me an example of that, I'll admit that the Hokage isn't the strongest person in the village.

Note: insane, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as someone who kills his own people, or kills without reason

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-22-2004, 04:59 PM

You also have to take into account that not everyone WANTS to be hokage i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif And yes, I am looking at the 3rd vs. Oro fight and taking it as a significant example of the probablility that 4th > Orochimaru.

Why? The 3rd had to retire once, probably because he was getting too old, and the 4th had reached a level that exceeded the 3rd's waning powers .. and that was 12+ years ago. Oro has already taken younger, stronger bodies while the 3rd just got older and weaker.

So .. if 4th > 3rd at the 3rd's original retirement, and the much OLDER 3rd very nearly OWNED Oro despite being OUTNUMBERED by OTHER HOKAGES .. then it would make sense that the 4th was well above Oro in pure fighting ability, considering he was most likely a better fighter (why else would the 3rd have to retire? .. the 3rd had incredible intelligence and experience, and he wouldn't trust his village to just anyone!). Just connect the obvious..

avmoghe

Thu, 04-22-2004, 05:39 PM

whoa wait...
At the time of the 3rd Hokage's retirement (and after) BOTH Orochimaru and the 4th were stronger than the 3rd...

He would'nt have retired otherwise as you say. Orochimaru was his first choice.. but when he could'nt get him (due to the way the word Hokage was defined in the last post), he picked the 4th.

Orochimaru during the fight was far stronger than the 3rd. The ONLY reason he managed to nearly kill Orochimaru was because he knew the death god technique.... thats it.

I mean.. the technique is used when the opponent is stronger than the user.. its a last resort i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif The 4th hokage managed to seal the demon with that technique.. but does that mean he's anywhere near in power compared to the demon? Obviously not, since we know its quite the opposite.

In the exact same way, 3rd almost killed Orochimaru using that technique, but that doesn't mean that the 3rd is anywhere near Orochimaru in power

I don't see whats the big deal with using Hokages to fight? They're orochimaru's tools... exacltly like that monkey thing, or gamabunta. The tools add to the strength of the one who owns the tools. The Hokages are just a part Orochimaru's overall strength... in the same way that the monkey thing is a part of the 3rd overall strength

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-22-2004, 05:58 PM

I'm not so sure about Oro strengths being his fighting skills .. but rather his intelligence and wide knowledge of jutsu. His performance against the 3rd was horrible, he had to rely on summoned HOKAGES and long-range jutsu to stand a chance. And he was in a young body compared to the 3rd, who was in a VERY old body. No, I think the 3rd had Oro in mind for being a choice for Hokage because Oro is very smart and creative... and would make a great leader, if he wasn't so twisted.

Think of it this way .. Shikamaru would make a 100x better Hokage than Naruto (at this point in the story), because Shika is SMARTER than Naruto. Does this mean that Shika stands much of a chance against Naruto in a fight? NO, of course not, by all accounts Naruto would simply overpower Shika (unless Shika could come up with a miracle).

I think it's probably similar to the 4th vs. Oro .. 4th being more of a pure fighter, tons of chakra and heart, but not necessarily very bright. Oro being more of the calculating intellectual, who memorizes tons of details and knows psychology and manipulation very well.

EDIT : Summoning definitely is a measure of someone's ability, but certainly isn't a measure of someone's STRENGTH .. would anyone say that Naruto is stronger than the 3rd, simply because Gamabunta is a lot more powerful than the Monkey King? No, because that's ridiculous i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif Summonings have their own powers and personalities, that cannot be measured purely as extensions of those who call upon them. And it is also clear that using human sacrifices to raise DEAD Hokages is a very cheap technique .. if Oro was truly strong he wouldn't have NEEDED to call them to just to beat up a VERY elderly man.

Oro = overrated

avmoghe

Fri, 04-23-2004, 12:42 AM

I don't see how Oro's performance was miserable? i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

As for Naruto and Shikamaru - I don't think they'll pick shikamaru over Naruto for Hokage. Since both are non-insane (dont kill their own people) and assuming both want to be hokage.. they will pick Naruto I think due to his strength i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif (yes IN SPITE of Shikamaru's intellect). Either way.. its a moot point since we are both speculating on what might happen. Until I see an example of the strongest person (not insane, and wants to be hokage) not being hokage, I'll keep believing that Hokage is the strongest.
Only time will tell which one of us is right i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Hotsuma

Fri, 04-23-2004, 08:48 AM

Okay. You must be on crack or something avmoghe. Anybody with common sense (and have read the story, which you obviously have not ) could see what characteristics are required to become Hokage.

When you're Hokage, you REPRESENT the village, or country itself. Why the fuck would the council hire some insane kid to be the flag of their own town? Unless of course, it's a dictatorship, where that said person just rules via take over, but that's unlikely.

Strength VS Intellect, common sense, leadership qualities. See Chuunin exam.

And where did you get the fact that the 2 dead Hokages were using Oro's own chakra? In either case, it's a 3 on 1 fight. 2 of which are as strong, if not stronger than the 3rds old body.

Death BOO Z

Fri, 04-23-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by: avmoghe

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

I guess you missed out the point where the 3rd refears to the fact they'll continue fighting even if Orochimaru is dead...

it kinda prooves out that they have chackra of thier own, doesn't it?

avmoghe

Fri, 04-23-2004, 01:32 PM

death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-23-2004, 02:35 PM

If you think strength is the only requirement for Hokage, then you're just insane. Oro doesn't seem to be all that strong, having such a difficult time even after he has stolen a new body to fight an extremely elderly man with. Having the new body wasn't enough, he had to summon dead hokages to do his fighting for him (which, having human sacrifices for being the conduit, probably supply the chakra, NOT Oro, all he did was stab them with activating Kunai!). A very cheap, and highly forbidden technique, for obvious reasons.

As for Naruto being hokage .. maybe someday far far off, I actually believe he will achieve his goal, but he has tons of growing to do. Shikamaru is actually already ready for the task intellectually, and I stand by that at THIS POINT in the story, he is a better choice. It is quite obvious that the Hokage's main duty is ANYthing but fighting. How many times did we see the 3rd engage in combat? ONCE! The Kage's main duty is diplomacy and administration of the government .. can you see Naruto spending more than 5 minutes on that without going berserk and incinerating the scroll he is supposed to read and sign? The point I am trying to make (based on Oro's GLARING weaknesses in combat), is that Oro was more INTELLECTUALLY fit for Hokage, and would serve Konoha better by doing the work that is required in a more intuitive and effective manner than someone with less intelligence (ie- the 4th, someone who Naruto is constantly compared to). Based on what little we've heard about the 4th, we know that he was vastly powerful, was very passionate about his village and people, and had some very high-level jutsu. But we don't hear anything particular about him being clever or anything beyond somewhat creative. There is obviously MUCH more to being hokage than just being strong. But the POSITION automatically MAKES ONE the strongest (measured by authority and responsibility) of the village.

Hotsuma

Fri, 04-23-2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by: avmoghe
death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but Orochimaru was a fucking pussy. Why? He needed 2 summoned Hokages to fight out an old man. An OLD MAN! Now, what was he doing, when the 3 were duking it out? He was sitting back, talking mad shit. Oh, and I doubt Oro was really controlling the 2 Hokage's chakra levels. Sacrifices were made after all, for the summoning. They were listening to him, because of a contract. Against their wishes.

And, hypothetically speaking....

Where the FUCK do you get that Naruto is above average in intelligence? It's been established via missions, tests and through other characters that Naruto completely lacks everything required to be a intelligent, resourceful ninja. He relies on pure strength to get him through. Also, saying that he relies on lower level Jounin to help him out? Ok. Weak. There are more than one jounins in the village. Has it ever occured to you there might be, oh I dunno, bias on each jounins parts? Once again, Hokage is the highest rank in any village. It's illogical to listen to lower ranks. Would a Jounin listen to a Chuunin? Chuunin, a genin? Genin, a student? No.

And I reiterate. They didn't choose Chuunins based on pure strength. Why else did only Shikamaru become one? He is smart, resourceful, cunning, and calm. Given Naruto's current character (and his defining one), how can anybody with common sense elect him as Hokage?

Getting to the 4th VS Oro in Hokage election. Strength is important in becoming Hokage. But important as heart? Compassion? No. Why do you think Jiraiya and Tsunade always believe Naruto to be the next (well future) Hokage? His strength? No. They never once mention his skill in battle as a requirement for becoming Hokage. Besides that, the 4th didn't hide behind his cronies when fighting his own battle, hah. Oh, and I do believe the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru. Back in the Chuunin days, when Anko was telling 3rd about Hokage, she wished "If only the 4th were here.." this insinuates that he's as strong, if not STRONGER than the Oro in his current state (which is improved since the Hokage election years ago, because of his obsessions.)

So yeah, the 4th was probably stronger. Oro was basically like a teacher's pet to the third. If you had a favorite student, wouldn't you want him to be respected and reverered throughout the village too?

avmoghe

Fri, 04-23-2004, 04:11 PM

memnoch: I've never said strength was the ONLY requirement. I'm saying strength is the PRIMARY requirement after others have been satisfied. You can't deny the fact that the 4th had enough intelligence to become Hokage. You can't deny that Orochimaru had enough intelligence to become Hokage.

What I'm saying that when both parties have the sufficient amount of intelligence required to the STRONGER one will be picked to be Hokage. I'm saying when a it is determined that both parties meet the required criteria.... STRENGTH will be the determining factor in picking the hokage.

Example - Assume intelligence required for hokage level is 100. Person A has intelligence level 120. Person B has intelligence level 200. Person A is stronger than person B.

I'm saying in the above case person A will be picked to be hokage i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

(obviously neither person A or person B should be killing their own people.. and really both must want to be hokage)

So, if Naruto reaches 120 level intelligence and Shikamaru reaches 200 level intelligence.. Naruto will be picked due to his strength.

As far as Oro goes... you're saying the sacrifices that Oro made provided the chakra for Hokage level combat? I really don't buy that. Aside from the fact that the dead bodies should'nt have any chakra of their own... even if they did, they are probably just unimportant genins. No way, thier chakra would be able to perform techniques like the forest thing.
---------

Hotsumma: See above.. So what if he used Hokages as puppets? It was his own chakra doing the fighting.

1)No way the dead bodies had their own chakra...
2) even if somehow miraculously they preserved thier chakra...do you really think that the pathetic little ninja's he sacrificed would have enough chakra to fight a hokage level battle?

Those two points make be belive that the chakra was the only person's it could've been.. orochimaru's.

I've NEVER said Naruto has above average intelligence. What I AM saying is what I typed above.. ASSUMING Naruto has above average intelligence and Shikamaru haveing Genius level intelligence.. Naruto would be picked to be hokage due to his strength. this was just an analogy.. just look at the person A, person B example above.

Oh and yes, of course Tsunade and Jiraiya are saying it because Naruto has strength. He mastered the Rasengan or whatver technique in a week... that was the PRIMARY reason why tsunade says it. they say he will be the future hokage due to his determination and his strength in doing the impossible... They are not considering his intelligence.
The fourth was powerful ya.. no doubt.. he was the Hokage of course. Just looking at him howver doesn't convince me that 4th would be able to stop Oro's plans.

lol i wear shirts

Fri, 04-23-2004, 04:21 PM

stop trying so hard already you just got dealt

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-23-2004, 04:27 PM

Naruto has NOT mastered the Rasengan, he merely created a creative way of performing it.

Also, I do not buy in any way that strength is the primary requirement for Hokage, on the basis of common sense. The Kages just don't engage in battle very often. We only saw the 3rd fight ONCE. And as far as we know, the 4th only fought one battle as Hokage.

I think Naruto will achieve his goal of becoming Hokage because he will eventually be fit for the role, learning patience and getting smarter (to a point). I see him becoming a bit like Jiraiya as he ages, staying eccentric and keeping his distinct personality, but developing into someone who has enough intelligence and experience to make decent decisions. Naruto will probably never reach the genius intellect of someone like Shikamaru, but it is also clear that Shikamaru will probably never reach the power that Naruto has (too troublesome!).

How do you profess to know that Orochimaru's chakra was powering the summons? It doesn't make any sense, it doesn't work that way for any other summons .. and don't say it's because they are dead, because there were LIVING sacrifices that powered the summons. It's ambiguous as best, certainly nothing to draw certainty on. The only thing you can clearly draw from it is that Oro NEEDED them, because he was too weak to face the 3rd on his own merits, he felt he had to cheat.

Again, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this .. strength is NOT the defining requirement for being Hokage, strength is what the position HAS. If Konohamaru was appointed hokage instead of Tsunade (yeah, I know .. LOL) .. then HE would be the strongest person in Konoha. Not because he can fight anyone, but because he is IN CHARGE, he COMMANDS the village and all of its powers. Fighting is very secondary to the position.

From everything I've seen ... Orochimaru = very cunning and clever, but physically weak in combat .. he relies on tricks, traps, and knowledge of jutsu to survive. The 4th seems to have been a Naruto type, relies on his determination/chakra combined with a few great jutsu to overcome his obstacles.

If you want to insist on simple combat strength as being the primary requirement for Hokage, I just don't know what to tell you, other than that's pretty silly.

Hotsuma

Fri, 04-23-2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by: avmoghe
memnoch: I've never said strength was the ONLY requirement. I'm saying strength is the PRIMARY requirement after others have been satisfied. You can't deny the fact that the 4th had enough intelligence to become Hokage. You can't deny that Orochimaru had enough intelligence to become Hokage.

What I'm saying that when both parties have the sufficient amount of intelligence required to the STRONGER one will be picked to be Hokage. I'm saying when a it is determined that both parties meet the required criteria.... STRENGTH will be the determining factor in picking the hokage.

Example - Assume intelligence required for hokage level is 100. Person A has intelligence level 120. Person B has intelligence level 200. Person A is stronger than person B.

I'm saying in the above case person A will be picked to be hokage i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

(obviously neither person A or person B should be killing their own people.. and really both must want to be hokage)

So, if Naruto reaches 120 level intelligence and Shikamaru reaches 200 level intelligence.. Naruto will be picked due to his strength.

As far as Oro goes... you're saying the sacrifices that Oro made provided the chakra for Hokage level combat? I really don't buy that. Aside from the fact that the dead bodies should'nt have any chakra of their own... even if they did, they are probably just unimportant genins. No way, thier chakra would be able to perform techniques like the forest thing.
---------

Hotsumma: See above.. So what if he used Hokages as puppets? It was his own chakra doing the fighting.

1)No way the dead bodies had their own chakra...
2) even if somehow miraculously they preserved thier chakra...do you really think that the pathetic little ninja's he sacrificed would have enough chakra to fight a hokage level battle?

Those two points make be belive that the chakra was the only person's it could've been.. orochimaru's.

I've NEVER said Naruto has above average intelligence. What I AM saying is what I typed above.. ASSUMING Naruto has above average intelligence and Shikamaru haveing Genius level intelligence.. Naruto would be picked to be hokage due to his strength. this was just an analogy.. just look at the person A, person B example above.

Oh and yes, of course Tsunade and Jiraiya are saying it because Naruto has strength. He mastered the Rasengan or whatver technique in a week... that was the PRIMARY reason why tsunade says it. they say he will be the future hokage due to his determination and his strength in doing the impossible... They are not considering his intelligence.
The fourth was powerful ya.. no doubt.. he was the Hokage of course. Just looking at him howver doesn't convince me that 4th would be able to stop Oro's plans.

Dude, I've been pretty nice up to now, but now I'm just going to come out and say it. You're a fucking dumbass, a Naruto newbie, and as shallow as a Naruto fan comes. Seriously, that's what the fuck you are.

[hypothetically, using Shikamaru and Naruto as an example] Naruto's strength isn't what's going to make him Hokage. It's his desire and devotion to the clan that makes him Hokage material. How many times do we have to tell you this? Strength isn't everything. It's the ability to lead. Even more important than being physically, intellectually and chakra-wise powerful, is the ability to lead, judge and provide a good example of what's best for your country. And, your putting Naruto (intelligence 120) and Shikamaru (intelligence 200) is inaccurate. There's a FAR greater gap between the two characters in terms of intelligence. Stop trying to expand Naruto's brain, or really lack thereof.

So, you're also saying that Oro has enough chakra to... summon jutsus, control them, AND be able to use incredibly high level jutsus all at once? Dude, you MUST be a fuckin Oro fan. In that case, nothing you say is valid. Sorry to tell you this, but Oro's a pussy. He can't even beat an old man with his plethora of jutsus, extra help and youth.

Jiraiya and Tsunade don't give a damn about Naruto's ability to learn. It's that he managed to use it, DESPITE not being a master to protect his loved ones. THIS is Naruto's Hokage-like quality. To put yourself on the line. Their favoritism towards him has nothing to do with strength.

Rank is not determined by strength. It's determined by many many more things. Strength is important, but saying it's the final deciding factor over everything else isn't accurate, because we've seen this same thing occur, during the Chuunin qualifcations, which only Shika passed.

Now, give up.

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-23-2004, 05:47 PM

Rofl Hotsuma, that was excellently said i/expressions/beer.gif Btw, reading that with your Osaka avatar just makes me grin .. because for some reason I sort of hear her voice saying all that i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

InnerSakuraChan

Sat, 04-24-2004, 12:28 AM

avmoghe - please stop. its been proven that your a compleate idot several times now. if you have any pride, go hide in a corner and NEVER COME OUT!

I'm a noob too, but i like to think that i have enough pride to NOT say stupid things, and to give up when i've been beaten . . . . i/expressions/rolleye.gif

i don't think that would be much of a fight there. kyubi would claw, stomp, bite, chew and spit out itachi.

that would be nice. that would shut up all you idiot Itachi goupies. (you know who you are). You are almost as bad as (to quote hotsuma) the "kyuubi nut-huggers".

Hotsuma

Sat, 04-24-2004, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Rofl Hotsuma, that was excellently said i/expressions/beer.gif Btw, reading that with your Osaka avatar just makes me grin .. because for some reason I sort of hear her voice saying all that i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

No way man. I'm nowhere near my darling Osaka's intellect.

We should all hope to be as intelligent, witty and focused as she is.

GokuSonGoku

Sat, 04-24-2004, 03:43 AM

When did this topic change from: Ranklist

to best hokage of Naruto and Shika?

MemnochTheCaT

Sat, 04-24-2004, 03:53 AM

Because of the comparison of intellect and reasons for promotion. Read the thread and then you will understand i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Hotsuma

Sat, 04-24-2004, 12:21 PM

Because you touch yourself at night.

/Dogma

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:22 PM

I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.

Re-read, we didn't say strength wasn't necessary, just that it is NOT central to the duties of Hokage. The factors of character, experience, patience, and intellect are collectively more important than pure fighting skill.

Knives122

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:28 PM

yeah you have to be an all around good person that doesnt care about yourself or your family members, but everyone, and the recent hokage must agree with your ideas on how to better the village in order to become one

originalkrn

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:40 PM

okay.. im pretty sure strength is the most heavily weighed tho.... come on. But if someone has pure strength, but has none of the other qualities, then obviously hes not gonna be chosen...

Knives.. your sig is really huge.. the size is like 400x80 from the last i heard before...

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
I disagree. It clearly states that Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village and in order to qualify you need to have learned over 1000 jutsus. Isn't this implying strength & skill? Plain and simple. If what both of you are implying (leadership takes precedence) is true then there would be no need for Kage status.

Re-read, we didn't say strength wasn't necessary, just that it is NOT central to the duties of Hokage. The factors of character, experience, patience, and intellect are collectively more important than pure fighting skill.

I read what was written before I posted. Obviously strength is central, because of the reasons I stated in the previous post. Whenever the term Kage is mentioned, it is always mentioned in terms of strength. Not once have I heard that you had to be a diplomat in order to be kage. It is always reiterated that you had to be the strongest ninja in the village and you had to know so many jutsus. That obviously makes strength central to kage status.

yeah you have to be an all around good person that doesnt care about yourself or your family members, but everyone, and the recent hokage must agree with your ideas on how to better the village in order to become one

Naruto is that and more. He surpasses Shika in this category, hence Tsunade's necklace. So I don't see how this works against Naruto.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 06:04 PM

The Hokage rank IS strength, because of the authority and responsibility of the position. And how many times does the Hokage go out to fight anyway? It's an administrative position, not a soldier position.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-26-2004, 07:04 PM

Hokage fights, just like everyone else in times of war. He just doens't go out on missions during the peace-time. Peace-time missions are menial tasks for lower ranked ninjas to hone their skills. Kage of course doesn't need that since he is indeed the strongest.

Your idea of a kage is someone who travels to other countries to promote peace. They also balance the village budget, reduce the village defecit, and approve village spending. They run negative campaign ads against their running mates. They speak out about the cost of medicare and the village economy. They speak out about how the social security system isn't working. They bring up issues about how the village needs new, better, cleaner energy.

Sorry, but in Naruto's world, it's very Darwinistic. It's a kill or be killed kind of world. It's a world where the pen isn't mightier than the sword.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 07:11 PM

It's not logical to risk a leader in combat unless absolutely necessary. The Kage = strongest fighter doesn't seem to be an absolute rule. Best point of this has already been made : Gaara > Kazekage. The 3rd, almost unquestionably one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) characters in the series, had how many fights in his entire appearance in the series?

Logic dictates that for a position that is in charge, you want the most competent leader possible for that role. A great fighter can be effective even from the rank of Genin. But a great leader can only be effective in the position of leadership.

The fact that the Naruto world is fictional does not give it an absolute aversion to any semblence of common sense. Virtually all of what we have seen the Kages do has been in administrative duties.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-26-2004, 07:42 PM

Naruto can beat Shikamaru (shikamaru said that, so he must be right).
Naruto is a genin, Shikamaru is a chunin.

as a pure fighter, Naruto can outmatch most enemies, yet, that doesn't make him a neccerly good ninja. let's say that the mission is to steal a document and forge it without anyone noticing, this is a mission which would require brains and careful planning, you need someone with brains to handle this type of missions. i don't believe Naruto would be able to think past the basic manuvers of sealth sneaking.

The hokage is the supreme commander of the village, he needs to assiagn missions and rule over the training of the young ones, he has the ANBU to do the fighting for him...

besides, this whole discussion is pointless, we're already given the answer in the second test, Heaven and earth scrolls anyone? run in the fields to gain power, and focus to gain smarts?

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-26-2004, 08:05 PM

My last post on this subject.

1. The leader is always at risk. During a combat or non-combat environment. That's one of the negative aspects of being a leader. LOL...who do you think ninjas assasinate? Leaders of course.

2. A great leader from your perspective can not defend himself in terms of an assasination attempt, because they excel only at leadership. Thus the leader never becomes great. They were simply a leader. A strong leader can resist assasination attempts and defend his ideals. He can keep the village together in good times and bad. If the people don't feel that their leader can protect them, they will mutiny. Itachi is a prime example. Using your example of a strong genin, what's to stop that genin from killing the kage and taking the title for himself? Do you see how a weak leader can cause village disputes and factions to arise. Somone like Shika is great for the village council, but is certainly not strong enough to be Kage. Strength is far more important than leadership especially in Naruto's fictional world.

3. The third fought during the sound/sand invasion. The fourth fought against kyubi. I'm sure the first and second fought as well during their times (remember the great war). We've also seen the fifth fight. They don't aren't just administrative puppets as you suggest. They are the strongest ninja in the village. It is stated so.

as a pure fighter, Naruto can outmatch most enemies, yet, that doesn't make him a neccerly good ninja. let's say that the mission is to steal a document and forge it without anyone noticing, this is a mission which would require brains and careful planning, you need someone with brains to handle this type of missions. i don't believe Naruto would be able to think past the basic manuvers of sealth sneaking.

Naruto stole the forbidden scroll. Remember? That took skill and cunning. The only reason why anyone found out was because of that Miyuki (or whatever that guys name was, the guy that told Naruto to do it).

Once and for all. I'd like to make this very clear to all the freaking HYPOCRITES and IDIOTS, who keep saying that discussions such as these are pointless.

EVERY FREAKING POST ON THIS DAMN FORUM IS POINTLESS. IT'S FICTION. DON'T YOU THINK THAT IT'S FREAKING OBVIOUS THAT THERE ISN'T ANY POINT TO IT.

1. WHY THE HELL DO YOU FREAKING HYPOCRITES POST? ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THESE DAMN DISCUSSIONS ARE POINTLESS.

2. KONOHAMARUCORPS, HOTSUMA, DAZZZ, AND NOW DEATH BOOZ. I SWEAR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW UP EVERY ONE OF YOUR FREAKING POINTLESS POSTS WITH "DON'T YOU KNOW THESE DISCUSSIONS ARE POINTLESS." actually I don't have the time or the inclination, but it sounded good.

3. IF ANYONE OF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT THERE IS A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION ON THIS FORUM. THEN &*%$ #$%^&!!!!! PEOPLE DISCUSS THINGS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION.

It's part of the socialization process.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 08:21 PM

Argh, another brickheaded argument that tries to twist what was said. I NEVER said that fighting skill was totally unimportant to the position of Hokage, just secondary. Yes, the position of leader is always at risk .. your point? Of course the Hokage has to have achieved a great level of respect and ability for being a great ninja, which involves by matter of course .. a great level of fighting skill. But fighting is NOT all there is to being a ninja, there is so much more to it than that, especially if you are responsible for the village!

Your argument on leadership, village disputes, and factions arising is totally and completely muddled. It takes an intelligent and compassionate leader to keep the people united. Being purely a great fighter cannot hope to accomplish that task, the people have to have faith in what you are trying to accomplish as their leader, or they will not follow orders. Who would you rather have in charge, an outstanding fighter with only mediocre intelligence, or a brilliant and creative tactician and leader who may NOT be the absolute best fighter in the village? Why do you think the 3rd had to re-assume the role of Hokage after the 4th died? He was old, and considerably weakened, but he was the best choice available for the job, because he was a great and inspirational leader that everyone trusted.

And for anyone who thinks that the Kage is chosen only for fighting skill .. what about a situation where there are rivals who are nearly equal in strength, but who constantly eclipse each other in fighting ability through their training. Would they trade the position of Kage every 6 months based on who was stronger? It's just a stupid thing to think .. the position would go (and stay) to the person more fit to lead the village, and it would stay that way until a better choice became available. Physical strength is transient, but great leaders are like rocks you can depend upon. And fighting is not the gift that the 3rd gave to his village, it was character, inspiration, and self-sacrifice.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-26-2004, 08:44 PM

There wasn't anyone strong enough left to take the fourths place. So the third once again took up the title of hokage. Not because he was just great and inspirational, but because he was indeed the strongest in the village.

Strength is indeed transient. That explains why new kages arise and old ones step down. A brilliant and creative tactician who can not save his own life is useless. Someone of of mediocre intelligence is smart enough to know that they don't know all the answeres and therefore seeks council. What happened to the smart tactician in the Uchiha Clan, oh that's right a very strong man killed all of them. Strength defines everything.

As for your argument about two people with nearly equal strengths, I'm sure one of them will meet a uncertain demise. Why do you keep forgetting that this is a world of ninjas and not regular people wearing Armani suits?

Why do you believe:
"because he is stronger than myself"
and not
"kage is the strongest ninja in the village."

Are you implying that in the first qoute, Oro is stating that Itachi has better leadership skills than Oro!!!

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 09:05 PM

So much for 'my last post on the subject' LOL!

It is highly probable that Jiraiya was stronger than the highly-aged 3rd, if strength were the pure requirement for Hokage, most likely they would have sought him out, or gone ahead and installed Tsunade. 'A brilliant and creative tactician who can not save his own life is useless'? Are you kidding me? In the rock>paper>scissors world of Naruto, there is always the possibility of death, REGARDLESS of how strong you are. Additionally, the smarter and more intuitive you are, the less likely you are going to fall into a trap or to be caught unaware of an assassination attempt.

'Strength defines everything' ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Are we even reading/watching the same series? Of course strength is necessary, to a significantly larger degree than exists in the real world (where ninja were simply tools, not rulers). In Naruto, there are many elements of emphasis, and strength is NOT the definition of everything. If anything, it's about overcoming obstacles to accomplish goals, and finding redemption. Not necessarily through strength, but by spirit, hard work, and a sense of honor for your friends and village.

As for the two quotes .. I think Oro actually fears Itachi .. because he is smart and knows his own weaknesses well enough to realistically assess the encounter. He also puts an intense amount of emphasis on knowledge of jutsu, and the sharingan gives an intimidating advantage in the ability to amass the user's number of jutsu. The 2nd quote 'Kage is the strongest ninja in the village' I fully believe to be the measure of the position, not purely a measurement of someone's combat ability. Why? Because it is more than likely that during a Kage's rule, that others in the village will exceed the Kage's pure fighting ability, but it wouldn't make sense to change leaders each and every time that happened. Or there would be people who have more pure combat ability, but are either too psychotic, malicious, or unintelligent to perform the duties. Any one of a wide range of possibilites would prove the rule of the Hokage being the strongest FIGHTER completely and utterly false. And that's the bottom line.

jing

Mon, 04-26-2004, 09:38 PM

You have to be strong to be a hokage.... If the 3rd wasn't strong,the whole Leaf village would have been owned............ and the hokage's duties are to protect the village, if you're not strong, how the hell are you going to protect?

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 09:49 PM

Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!

jing

Mon, 04-26-2004, 10:28 PM

oh in that case, then being strong is a requirement, but you must have all great leadership skillz. becasue if you are just strong, then orochimaru would have been chosen. 3rd probably though orochimaru is stronger, but yondaime had something much more than just being strong, its probably the love for the village and to protect them, something orochimaru doesn't have.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 10:42 PM

Well said Jing, one thing that is certain : there are many ways of looking at the situation i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

originalkrn

Mon, 04-26-2004, 10:46 PM

God okay. Yes you have to be the strongest in the village to become Hokage. Thats what being hokage is. But true strength doesn't neccessary come from pure brute physical power, but can come from tactics, techniques, and all that other good stuff. Fighting skill is NOT secondary. Think about it.. come on. I dont think hokage really has the time really go out and FIGHT and do missions all day. Thats why we dont see him doing them. Hes not gonna do a B rank or lower mission. Its just not whats important to him. But if someone were to attack and the kage knew all this stuff and then he was too weak and just died, that would be pathetic. I agree with Hiten... Lets see.. if Shika (the intelligent government position) were to go against someone with pure strength and speed like lets see.. Rock Lee, then i dont think Shika would stand a chance. His shadow seems pretty slow to me seeing how Temari was just jumping out of the way. Rock Lee could just twirl around Shika and grab him and bye bye to Shika. Shika vs. Naruto = Naruto goes SSJ, whoops i mean Kyuubi style i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif, and makes many many kage bunshins and the real Naruto can sit back while Shika gets pounded. So I think Naruto would become Hokage rather than Shika.. and lastly... even if Naruto is stupid, he'll have two right hand men to help him just like Hokage had...
Obviously Gaara is ultimatly powerful, but do you honestly believe that the kazekage couldnt kill him? The kazekage probably didnt WANT to kill him that bad because if he didn't he wouldnt send just one nin, but a mass assualt on Gaara. I bet even if kazekage went 1v1, Kazekage would whoop on Gaara's ass. Its just you know.. its his son and all.. he probably DOES have a conscience. And what would the village think if kazekage himself went and killed Gaara? Not very highly of him... so no.. Gaara does NOT > Kazekage.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 10:57 PM

I couldn't disagree more, and you seem to also miss the point, which is incredible given the amount of information posted in this thread. You seem to even argue with yourself in your own post .. and fail to acknowledge that there are many powerful fighters to choose from at any given time.

The comparison of Shika was in terms of leadership/rank, and is valid. Of course Shika isn't Hokage material right now, NONE of the chuunin/genin are, that's just silly. What IS clear, is that Shika got promoted to Chuunin, while Neji/Naruto/Lee/etc did NOT get promoted. Did the others get robbed? No, because the rank of Chuunin requires someone to be intelligent, responsible, and have the greatest ability to lead missions successfully + keep their team alive, as WELL as being a competent fighter. If fighting was the primary reason for getting promoted, then Naruto would have become chuunin, not Shika. EVERY position of rank, when you are responsible for the organization and protection of the village, requires much more than pure fighting skill, and it's the job of the government to make sure the right people get into the right positions..

Also, answer me this : why would the strongest fighter in the village necessarily be the leader? If they are serving the same village, the strongest fighter could easily contribute all of his fighting skills as a right-hand man instead of the commander. But the best commander can't contribute everything he has to offer if he is not in a position of authority. It's simple logic .. not to mention it would create chaos to change your ruler every single time someone stronger appears.

jing

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:12 PM

Cat is right, how can you become a Hokage if you don't even have the skillz to be a Chunnin. That's right you can't.

Shika versus Naruto?
SHIKA OWNZ NARUTO

he will shadow imitate all the clones , and make them go against naruto.

originalkrn

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:16 PM

well i wasnt saying that they be hokage right now, i was just comparing them to compare str vs. int with characters that we know... and Shika got lucky cuz in the prelims, where it really wasnt graded, he versed someone he could be on par with in fighting ability. And Lee didnt get chunin cuz guess wat? he couldnt reach the finals because he nearly got killed by Gaara. If Shika had matched up with Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, or Gaara in the prelims, hed be over too and would not have made it to the finals. And the strongest fighter in the village would be the leader because hey... this is a show about ninjas and fighting not about having some government position.

jing

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:20 PM

no man, shika showed good leadershipskills thats why he was promoted. he didn't get lucky, he fought hard with tactics. He made the correct decisions for giving up. they already said u did not have to win, you just have to show good leadershipskills. and even if you win, you might not even get chosen to be a chunnin if the hokage thinks you're all brute and dumbdumb.
edit:
Thank you cat, you too good valuable points

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:21 PM

OriginalKrn : Yeap this is a fictional show .. but without any logic it would disintegrate into meaningless chaos, thankfully it is pretty sensible in its logic overall. There are ranks, responsibilities, risks, rewards .. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif And there are different opinions to share on it .. we just have notably different ones in this case .. no big deal i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

EDIT : Yeap, Jing again with an excellent assessment of Shika's well-deserved Chuunin ranking.

originalkrn

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:27 PM

Well, Shika got lucky in the prelims, not in the finals. the prelims werent graded... and like i said, if he had gone against someone like Gaara, Sasuke, Naruto, or Lee he would be over before the finals.

and lets say this is a village.. well this is a village about ninjas. Ninjas is the central figure in the entire thing, not about politics. it would be goofy to see Hokages in suits making speeches and debating about politics.. about how they are the most intelligent and the best choice.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:38 PM

Politics are clearly present in Naruto, and being responsible for the entire village requires a great deal of intelligence and experience. How do you expect to keep your people fed, stay out of unneccesary wars (look at the example of the Hyuuga sacrificing a member to help the hokage avoid a war!), make sure the right people are chosen for the right missions, make sure the right people get promoted, etc .. if you aren't aware of politics and have a high intellect to make the right choices. You can't solve everything by trying to beat everyone up... it's not that simple in the real world, and it's not that simple in the fictional world of Naruto. And no, you don't see people debating in suits, because that would be entirely too boring to have an anime about ..

originalkrn

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:50 PM

Well i think if Tsunade could do it (considering her crazy gambling habits), Naruto can do it sooner or later. They first came to Jirayai too, who was by no argument the strongest nin in Konoha at the time. They came to him almost immediately saying we need a "strong leader". A powerful leader not only is able to protect the village, but gives hope to the people, leaving a sense of comfort.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-26-2004, 11:55 PM

Yeap the hokage has much to do i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif And I agree, I think Naruto will achieve his goal of becoming hokage someday! Naruto has very good role models to strive after .. Jiraiya, the 3rd, the 4th i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Hotsuma

Tue, 04-27-2004, 12:07 AM

Don't whine "he got lucky because he fought easy opponents."

Tsunade and Jiraiya were both considerably respected in Konoha. They were, after all, 2 of the 3 sannin - which is probably just a rank below Kage level in the hierarchy. They both have their bad habits, but they knew they had what it takes. That's all that matters.

Hotsuma

Tue, 04-27-2004, 12:07 AM

Oops@ double post

InnerSakuraChan

Tue, 04-27-2004, 12:29 AM

alrighty -
I've been following this forum for a while, and I can't help but comment
I have to agree w/ memnoch - congrats man - you are always so well spoken.

If leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest. Leaders that are chosen for power alone, or only act with power become your Sadaam Husseins and your Stalins.

However, leaders that chosen For strength and other skills, such as diplomacy, intelligence, and commitment to the betterment of those they govern, are the more successful leaders. They re the ones that choose peace treaties over war, and respect the wishes of neighbor nations.

Naruto is a character who relies on strength. are demonstrated in the battle against garaa, his battle plan generally consists of launching clones of himself at the enemy, and when that fails, attempting to do high level jutsu that he clearly doesn t have the chakra for he reiles on the kyuubi's strength to get through the battle.

Shikamaru, on the other hand, has no hidden reserves of strength, besides his own intelligence. I think that if Naruto would strategize more and conserve his chakra, and plan ahead, he wouldn't have to rely on the kyuubi's strength. Also, when leading missions, you have to consider the other people in the group, not just yourself, this is why Shikamaru deserves to be a chuunin, and Naruto doesn t.

At this point in the series, Shikamaru is probably more hokage-worthy. The only thing that Naruto has over Shikamaru, is that he cares more passionatly about the village, but he uses force to protect it. however, you might argue that Hitler felt passionate about its country., and also used force to better it. now, before you all jump down my back, i am in no way endorsing the actions of Hitler, or even saying that Naruto is in anyway like him in beliefs.

In the future, perhaps, if Naruto learns to strategize, he would be a much better Hokage than Shikamaru, because of his passion.

In summary:
intelligence/strategizing > strength
Shikamaru> Naruto

Just my 2 yen
i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Edit: added some puctuation i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Hotsuma

Tue, 04-27-2004, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by: InnerSakuraChan
alrighty -
I've been following this forum for a while, and I can't help but comment
I have to agree w/ memnoch - congrats man - you are always so well spoken.

If leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest. Leaders that are chosen for power alone, or only act with power become your Sadaam Husseins and your Stalins.

However, leaders that chosen For strength and other skills, such as diplomacy, intelligence, and commitment to the betterment of those they govern, are the more successful leaders. They re the ones that choose peace treaties over war, and respect the wishes of neighbor nations.

Naruto is a character who relies on strength. are demonstrated in the battle against garaa, his battle plan generally consists of launching clones of himself at the enemy, and when that fails, attempting to do high level jutsu that he clearly doesn t have the chakra for he reiles on the kyuubi's strength to get through the battle.

Shikamaru, on the other hand, has no hidden reserves of strength, besides his own intelligence. I think that if Naruto would strategize more and conserve his chakra, and plan ahead, he wouldn't have to rely on the kyuubi's strength. Also, when leading missions, you have to consider the other people in the group, not just yourself, this is why Shikamaru deserves to be a chuunin, and Naruto doesn t.

At this point in the series, Shikamaru is probably more hokage-worthy. The only thing that Naruto has over Shikamaru, is that he cares more passionatly about the village, but he uses force to protect it. however, you might argue that Hitler felt passionate about its country., and also used force to better it. now, before you all jump down my back, i am in no way endorsing the actions of Hitler, or even saying that Naruto is in anyway like him in beliefs.

In the future, perhaps, if Naruto learns to strategize, he would be a much better Hokage than Shikamaru, because of his passion.

In summary:
intelligence/strategizing > strength
Shikamaru> Naruto

Just my 2 yen
i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Edit: added some puctuation i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Amen.

MemnochTheCaT

Tue, 04-27-2004, 04:54 AM

Thanks InnerSakuraChan, that was well said i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

GokuSonGoku

Tue, 04-27-2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!

No it ain't the debate is about who is strongest.. If you read the TOPIC's TITLE you should know

jing

Wed, 04-28-2004, 02:47 PM

by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

Mut

Wed, 04-28-2004, 03:18 PM

i'm just adding to what everyone has said... to be hokage, you can't just be the strongest, you have also be very wise, intelligent and be able to run a village/country.

originalkrn

Wed, 04-28-2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by: jing
by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

what can shika do once he has bound Gaara?

hiten mitsurugi

Wed, 04-28-2004, 04:19 PM

You guys are really thinking about the ideal leader of todays time. When you should really be thinking about what it takes to be a leader of a more darwinistic period.

leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest.

Yes, someone like Itachi or Oro would be more suitable for hokage.
Oro was kage of the sounds, and a damn good one at that. Itachi could attain that status as well, if he wanted to. Once again seriously, you guys should get your heads out of the clouds, because your describing your ideal leader.

A good example of what would happen to a weak kage would be the Kage of the Sands.

Yes, either Tsunade or Jaraiya would have been selected as Hokage by the third, but they left the village out of their own will.

Strength defines everything, especially in a Darwinistic era. I wish I could show you people first hand, that your stupid ideals go out the freaking window, when your life is at stake.

See I'm one who believes that human beings don't evolve anymore, because of all these laws that protect the weak. Here's an example, healthy wolves stay healthy and ensure that their genes get passed on to new offsprings. A wolf who isn't healthy or old will die off ensuring that only the strongest genes will remain in the new offsprings. Humans aren't like that anymore. Weak humans who breed like rats ensure that even more stupid offsprings arise. Who do you think takes care of those offspring? The penal system or the State. This world is full of the helpless and weak. I pity our species. I also pity people who speak of ideals just because it sounds good, but don't believe a word of it.

Death BOO Z

Wed, 04-28-2004, 04:54 PM

Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

Itachi's skills were better used in the ANBU rather than in the hokage's office, the role of hokage would only limit his actions and waste his power.

last thing, human eveolution hasn't eccoured in the last 10000 years, a few generations of kindness to your fellow man won't change anything...

anyway, it's 00:50, so good night, people!

jing

Wed, 04-28-2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by: originalkrn

Originally posted by: jing
by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

what can shika do once he has bound Gaara?

thats easy, take a bomb, and throw it at him. fill his body with explosive tags. remember once gaara is binded, the sand would not function anymore as seen, when Naruto punched gaara in the hospital when he was trying to kill rock lee.

hiten mitsurugi

Wed, 04-28-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

The medieval times are a poor example, since there was always a caste system. Born a peaseant died a peasant. They would have never rose to power. People of power were related by blood. However, it is a good example of marrying your cousin.

Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.

Kazekage died because he was weak. That's all there is to it. It wouldn't have mattered if he excelled in thinking. Once you meet someon stronger than yourself. Death is inevitable.

Hotsuma

Wed, 04-28-2004, 06:04 PM

Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.

Kthxbye.

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-28-2004, 06:34 PM

Again with the simplistic argument of how strength is the only thing that matters. I thought you were done with your endless and repetitive blathering about Darwinism. Stupid people are always useful to smart people, regardless of time in history... which disproves the 'strength is everything' theory entirely. Look at almost any organized society in history, and you will almost NEVER see the most powerful fighter as a ruler of a country. You may see competent fighters, but what you will really see are masters of manipulation, control, and communication.

'Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.'

This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

You're not going to change my mind into some overly simplistic formula for the rules of leadership that does not follow any logic, no matter HOW many times you post it. To truly reach the closest 'strength is everything' situation, you would have to go to the time before language, when cave-dwelling early humans and neaderthals organized small groups to find food and shelter. Even recent research suggests that their primitive societies were more complex than first thought.

In closing, Naruto is of course, just a fictional show based on a collage of Japanese history and modern influence, but yet it remains somewhat logical on a societal level. Kishimoto endows the characters with characteristics of intelligence, compassion (or contempt, in some cases), ambition, regret, a full range of personalities and possibilities. This is why most anime/manga surpasses any other animated work in the world, because the writing and scope of the work is not automatically expected to be less complex or thought-out than live-action fiction. In this world of Naruto, they do not exist as animals living in a pure state of war, where strength is the only thing that ever matters, they exist in a microcosm of history, imagination, and mystique. That's what makes it fun ..

originalkrn

Wed, 04-28-2004, 07:25 PM

okay im tired of arguing.. lets just leave it at the BEST ninja is chosen for kage as Naruto puts it in the very first episode. And being the best ninja entails of having an overall talent in all cases. So you cant be either horribly weak or horribly stupid. Its just that fighting ability would be a very important factor in a village revolving around ninjas. However, i understand also you need to be able to make decisions for a village to be succesful.

Hotsuma

Wed, 04-28-2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!

No it ain't the debate is about who is strongest.. If you read the TOPIC's TITLE you should know

Your topic and title are boring. Nobody gives a shit about rank or power levels. This ain't DBZ. Go away already.

And Memnoch VS Hiten : Game set, and match.

originalkrn

Thu, 04-29-2004, 12:09 AM

game, set and match? no.. there is no right answer. We're given the right to believe in whatever opinion we want.

hiten mitsurugi

Thu, 04-29-2004, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
q]

FYI,

Yes, that's a perfect example in support of my argument. You used a real life person. That's great. I didn't want to lead into that. In real life there are no jutsus, so your physique doesn't matter. However there are many guns. You see, everyone feared Hitler, even his own top generals were scared of assasinating him. Why? Because he was extremely strong. It's funny that you bring up physical characteristics, because in the real world, a body builder can easily be shot by a "pale skinny" guy. Just to educate you a little more, if you ever bump into a pale skinny guy and he's punking you, don't mess with him because chances are he's carrying. You see the pale skinny guy can't put up much of a physical fight so he'll just shoot you instead. Whereas a body builder will just beat the crap out of you, but at least you're still alive. Don't forget where the manga ends and reality begins. See, Hitler would be like Oro in Naruto's world, trying to cleanse the world of Konoha, with his mad skills and ninjas. Please don't bring up examples without carefullly thinking it through.

Careful when you use your jutsu, or it will be used against you.

Twice I've held back at you using the word "dumb or brick headed." If you can't appreciate a debate then don't respond. I can appreciate your responses, even though I know you're wrong.

Oh, and I'm not trying to convince you. You're free to believe what you want.

[quote]
Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.

LOL... I felt a personal duty to educate the greenhorn.

Mut

Thu, 04-29-2004, 01:12 AM

is hiten the one that believes that a current kage chooses his/her next kage because that person is stronger than the current one? or is it someone else...

Hotsuma

Thu, 04-29-2004, 01:42 AM

You're applying real life theories (such as darwinism) but, Memnoch can't use analogies regarding real life people? How is that any different?

GokuSonGoku

Thu, 04-29-2004, 02:02 PM

.. Well(then ok).. Shika is a genius who only can rely on his brain he got no real powers but the shadow.. And that's got a limit too.. And actually we haven't seen the limit of Kyubi's chakra yet.. Yea Naruto beated up Haku with it but there it was about to break and he was starting to look like a fox and that only happened there cause he was mad. And Naruto is a strong guy but has no real "Genius" brain as shika but he will still be able to beat him as hokage cause seriously shika sucks at figthing.

Brain > Strength

Brain < Strength if you know how to use it

Naruto without Kyubi chakra and don't uses his own powers rigth < Shika

Naruto if he uses his powers rigth > Shika

Naruto With kyubi chakra and not using his own powers rigth > Shika

Naruto with kyubi chakra and using his own powers rigth > Shika

Over all
Naruto: 4
Shika : 2

And since Naruto knows how to actually use his own powers and don't have to rely on Kyubi all the time he would win Shika way big but Naruto has a weird dream he wants to figth all the time and that isn't what a Hokage do a Hokage is mostly a politician who has to think his/hers way out of a conflict and only use his own powers if it is absolutely critically.. And we know that Naruto would fit better as a Sennin when he grows up and becomes stronger then he can travel around and do stuff instead of sitting on his butt all the time and talking and talking and only figthing like 3 times in his Hokage period..

Shika would be a overall better Hokage cause he is a friggin Genius but he is... Well a sissy when it comes to figthing..

But Naruto is overall a better figther:
Kyubi Chakra
Kage Bushin No jutsu(and the extended parts of it he made up himself)
Uzumaki Naruto Combo
The Naruto 2000 Combo
And some others but would be Spoiling...

jing

Thu, 04-29-2004, 03:04 PM

Quoted by Hiten

Yes, someone like Itachi or Oro would be more suitable for hokage.

GokuSonGoku that was bad...... what you just did...........ill let YOU figure it out.

Orochimaru would not make a good Kage, because he doesn't care about protecting the village. So what if he is powerfull? He isn't going to protect anyone, which makes him a pretty useless Kage, a Kage that does not want to protect anyone. We all seen him treat his solders. They all end up dead. He is definitely not fit to be a Kage. You should rethink this, and try to open yourself to better oppinions and faqs.

GokuSonGoku

Thu, 04-29-2004, 03:33 PM

When did i say: Itachi or Oro would be suitable as a Kage?..

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-29-2004, 04:26 PM

Hiten, are you aware that

1 - Your response made little to no sense .. what on earth does much of any of what you said have to do with what we were discussing? 'Careful with your jutsu'? WTF are you talking about? You made analogies to, and I quote, 'Darwinistic' situations in history, and you object to me using real historical leaders as examples that totally disprove you? You ignore the Pharoahs, or the Edo Emperor/Shugunate as examples of leaders without 'Strength'. Virtually all great leaders accomplish their tasks by macromanagement of their administrative system.. not micromanaging by fighting individual battles themselves.

and

2 - Guns don't change the situation of leadership/strength WHATSOEVER. Long before firearms existed, commanders and leaders were not necessarily great fighters, but just smart and calculating.. throughout the world and various societies that have existed throughout history. This fact you completely ignore in your endless ranting about how 'strength is everything'. If I had the time, I could give you easily dozens of famous historical leaders that commanded great armies and lands .. that were NOT strong fighters whatsoever.

and

3 - You can't make a case for there being any logical exception to the fact that to lead, being charismatic, intelligent, creative, and manipulative are the key factors for success. Strength has next to nothing to do with it most of the time.

4 - It's bizarre that you responded about physical characteristics and then proceed to make assumptions. You can never tell who is carrying a gun, whether they are physically jacked or 90lbs soaking wet .. assumption / presumption / prejudice is the earmark of the mentally weak.

EDIT : GokuSg, I think jing got you mixed up with what Hiten was blathering about ..

Hotsuma

Thu, 04-29-2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
.. Well(then ok).. Shika is a genius who only can rely on his brain he got no real powers but the shadow.. And that's got a limit too.. And actually we haven't seen the limit of Kyubi's chakra yet.. Yea Naruto beated up Haku with it but there it was about to break and he was starting to look like a fox and that only happened there cause he was mad. And Naruto is a strong guy but has no real "Genius" brain as shika but he will still be able to beat him as hokage cause seriously shika sucks at figthing.

Brain > Strength

Brain < Strength if you know how to use it

Naruto without Kyubi chakra and don't uses his own powers rigth < Shika

Naruto if he uses his powers rigth > Shika

Naruto With kyubi chakra and not using his own powers rigth > Shika

Naruto with kyubi chakra and using his own powers rigth > Shika

Over all
Naruto: 4
Shika : 2

And since Naruto knows how to actually use his own powers and don't have to rely on Kyubi all the time he would win Shika way big but Naruto has a weird dream he wants to figth all the time and that isn't what a Hokage do a Hokage is mostly a politician who has to think his/hers way out of a conflict and only use his own powers if it is absolutely critically.. And we know that Naruto would fit better as a Sennin when he grows up and becomes stronger then he can travel around and do stuff instead of sitting on his butt all the time and talking and talking and only figthing like 3 times in his Hokage period..

Shika would be a overall better Hokage cause he is a friggin Genius but he is... Well a sissy when it comes to figthing..

But Naruto is overall a better figther:
Kyubi Chakra
Kage Bushin No jutsu(and the extended parts of it he made up himself)
Uzumaki Naruto Combo
The Naruto 2000 Combo
And some others but would be Spoiling...

Shikamaru w/a bowl of ramen as his weapon> Dimwitted Naruto w/all his Kyuubi goodness

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-29-2004, 04:42 PM

Good post GokuSonGoku .. no argument from me .. as a singular fighting force, Naruto is well beyond Shikamaru's level. The fact remains that for leadership/mission planning & execution/intuitive variables .. Shikamaru is *currently* well beyond Naruto's level. They make an excellent team, because they complement each other's abilities so well. Naruto has the brawn, heart, and combat creativity, while Shika has the massive intellect and planning/leading abilities. When (if?), Naruto becomes Hokage, which I believe he will .. he should keep Shika (a Jounin to be?) .. close at hand as a trusted advisor i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

jing

Thu, 04-29-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
When did i say: Itachi or Oro would be suitable as a Kage?..

You didn't.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 05-03-2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Hiten, are you aware that

1 - Your response made little to no sense .. what on earth does much of any of what you said have to do with what we were discussing? 'Careful with your jutsu'? WTF are you talking about? You made analogies to, and I quote, 'Darwinistic' situations in history, and you object to me using real historical leaders as examples that totally disprove you? You ignore the Pharoahs, or the Edo Emperor/Shugunate as examples of leaders without 'Strength'. Virtually all great leaders accomplish their tasks by macromanagement of their administrative system.. not micromanaging by fighting individual battles themselves.

and

2 - Guns don't change the situation of leadership/strength WHATSOEVER. Long before firearms existed, commanders and leaders were not necessarily great fighters, but just smart and calculating.. throughout the world and various societies that have existed throughout history. This fact you completely ignore in your endless ranting about how 'strength is everything'. If I had the time, I could give you easily dozens of famous historical leaders that commanded great armies and lands .. that were NOT strong fighters whatsoever.

and

3 - You can't make a case for there being any logical exception to the fact that to lead, being charismatic, intelligent, creative, and manipulative are the key factors for success. Strength has next to nothing to do with it most of the time.

4 - It's bizarre that you responded about physical characteristics and then proceed to make assumptions. You can never tell who is carrying a gun, whether they are physically jacked or 90lbs soaking wet .. assumption / presumption / prejudice is the earmark of the mentally weak.

EDIT : GokuSg, I think jing got you mixed up with what Hiten was blathering about ..

1. I'm not objecting to your use of hitler. I'm stating that when you use real historical figures, they can't perform jutsus like in the manga. I really wished that you would take that into perspective. Theres a difference between stating that Darwinism does indeed work in Naruto's world and stating that Hitler is weak because he can't perform jutsus or isn't physically strong. Remember that strength is indeed transient. As time changes, strength is redefined. Hitler was a perfect example of strength. You are merely implying that he was physically weak. What don't you understand?

Why do you bring up kings, pharoahs, and emporors? It weakens your argument. Did you forget that they lead by lineage (not intelligent leadership, like you claim)? Do you know how much in-breeding occurs? That throws your "intelligience" premise out the window.

2. Sorry but in societies guns make a difference and the ability to use it without regard for human life. Here are some examples gangs, and warlords in Africa. The introduction of guns was one of the main reasons the meiji era was successful in abolishing the samurai. Don't be so ignorant, guns don't matter! It's like an indian tribe with bows and arrows shooting a tank.

3. Those are all easy characteristics to attain. As long as you can speak you can be manipulative, just plain lieing is manipulation. As long as you are born with just average intelligence, you can become creative. If the leader was always the smartest, then why the hell does he need so much council? Strength is the hardest to attain (no, i'm not just talking physique here).

4. Not assumptions, basic psychology. Look at historical accounts of murderers. Then you can compare physique if you like. People are "physically jacked" take pride in their muscles. They just naturally want to beat the crap out of you with their hands. Anyways, just read a little about psychology, you can learn something.

You're applying real life theories (such as darwinism) but, Memnoch can't use analogies regarding real life people? How is that any different?

Darwinism occurs/applies to all things. Do you not agree that it applies to the world of Naruto? Just the fact that the third hokage (of old age) loss to Oro, suggest that Darwinism's theory applies. I'm not saying that he couldn't use hitler. I was just stating that it supported my claim.

Orochimaru would not make a good Kage, because he doesn't care about protecting the village. So what if he is powerfull? He isn't going to protect anyone, which makes him a pretty useless Kage, a Kage that does not want to protect anyone. We all seen him treat his solders. They all end up dead. He is definitely not fit to be a Kage. You should rethink this, and try to open yourself to better oppinions and faqs.

You only say this because of your bias towards Oro. So what if he doesn't care about protecting the village, that may only apply to Leaf village. How do we know that any of the other kages from the other village feel the way Konoha did? We don't because none of the other ones have been introduced. They may be as sadistic as Oro. Why does not protecting anyone make him useless? His soldiers end up dead, and yet so many more are willing to die for him. He is kage of the sound. You should put away your bias and rethink your thoughts. Obviously you didn't think it through from every perspespective.

Mut

Mon, 05-03-2004, 03:33 PM

i don't think orochimaru is an official 'kage' of the sound yet. i don't think they even have people living in that village to be even considered a village. i think orochimaru just somehow acquired a large piece of land and claimed it as his own.

Gods_Son

Mon, 05-03-2004, 03:37 PM

I don't think Oro is an official Kage either, or else the 3rd and Konoha would've been more aware of the danger of having the new Sound village participate in the exam.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 05-03-2004, 03:47 PM

let me clear out something here.
Orochimaru isn't a kage.
only the leaders of the five great villiages can become a kage (it's stated in chapter 7-8 of the manga, and episode 6 of the anime).
the sound is probably a legit villiage, just that it's elite are ran by orochimaru directly to aid his cause, they had quite a few participants in the chunin exam, and only Dosu's team had a mission (to kill\test Sasuke).

moving on, Orochimaru wouldn't make a good Kage, since he doesn't have any feelings of obligation towards his villiage, which means he might abandon it if a newer toy comes by.

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 05-03-2004, 03:58 PM

Lmao Hiten, you have directly contradicted yourself so many times, that I no longer have anything I need to say to you i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

originalkrn

Mon, 05-03-2004, 05:56 PM

OKAY.. lets leave it at this. Fighting ability does not consist of pure strength alone, but instead of tactics + strength + all that other good stuff. Tactics coming from the intelligent side (aka shika). So, therefore Shika with his intelligence as his aid (instead of power), is a very good fighter. Also, in decision making, the hokages make decisions that would be for battling purposes mainly (whether it be against a village, individual, or monster) and such. And that decision making ability is also an aid in fighting, which highers his fighting ability. So overall, if youre good at fighting, youre a good ninja and the "best ninja in the village" is chosen as hokage based on his/her "fighting ability".

jing

Mon, 05-03-2004, 10:08 PM

yeah i guess you summed it up pretty much
one thing though, i'd hate to live in a village when Hiten is the Kage. Afterall, he thinks oro would fit well as a kage. I wouldn't like to be used as a tool...

i've learnt something from watchin naruto
Leaf village=heart of fire
Oro's village=heart of being used.
Leaf village is more powerfull. therefore, they have a good role model.

Knives122

Mon, 05-03-2004, 10:11 PM

hiten an idiot, dont listen to him, he doesnt know what hes talking about

hiten mitsurugi

Tue, 05-04-2004, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by: jing
yeah i guess you summed it up pretty much
one thing though, i'd hate to live in a village when Hiten is the Kage. Afterall, he thinks oro would fit well as a kage. I wouldn't like to be used as a tool...

i've learnt something from watchin naruto
Leaf village=heart of fire
Oro's village=heart of being used.
Leaf village is more powerfull. therefore, they have a good role model.

A ninja is simply a tool. It was explained in the Zambusa/Haku arc.

hiten an idiot, dont listen to him, he doesnt know what hes talking about

This is coming from a person who scored a 0% on passive sentences, 0.0 on Flesch Reading Ease, and 0.0 on Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level. For your sake, you'd better still be in kindergarten.

In short, you have no right calling other people an "idiot." LOL...MUhahahahahahah.

MemnochTheCaT

Tue, 05-04-2004, 02:13 PM

Hiten, your attempted retort post might have gone over a little better if you had actually spelled Zabuza's name correctly i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

hiten mitsurugi

Tue, 05-04-2004, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Hiten, your attempted retort post might have gone over a little better if you had actually spelled Zabuza's name correctly i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Yes, it seems that in my haste I managed to mispell Zambuza (actually I didn't think that it was worth my time to look it up). I guess that it was close enough for you too understand who it was I was referring to. I hope I didn't cause you any mental pain. I'm truly happy that you're worried about me. Rest assured that if this was an essay or a brief that All names would have been spelled out correctly.

LOL...Please check all my other posts for me.

jing

Tue, 05-04-2004, 06:51 PM

there's a big difference between being a tool and not being a tool.
Dosu=tool
Haku=tool
Naruto= not tool.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Tue, 05-04-2004, 08:14 PM

If Haku was a tool, why did Zabuza wish to go to the same place as he went?
Was he wanting to go to the toolshed or something?
Well, not that wasn't very keen, I'd say. Then again, I am not the sharpest one there...

Hotsuma

Tue, 05-04-2004, 09:12 PM

Every ninja is a tool, no matter how much they try to fight, or deny it. Naruto is also a tool.

InnerSakuraChan

Tue, 05-04-2004, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Every ninja is a tool, no matter how much they try to fight, or deny it. Naruto is also a tool.

A tool used for the protection and betterment of the village (or society in more general terms), not a tool for one paticular leader's ideology and personal gain.

And maybe I'm being realy stupid and pointing out he obvious here, but . . .

Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
Brain > Strength

Brain < Strength if you know how to use it

Isn't intelligence knowing how to use your strengths?

jing

Tue, 05-04-2004, 10:24 PM

yeah thats what im trying to say before, innersakurachan helped me out. missed out the important factor. yeah and your right about using intelligence to use strength. Lets take shikamaru, a guy with low chakra, and only has a few moves, but intelligence is what made him a better fighter.

hiten mitsurugi

Wed, 05-05-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by: InnerSakuraChan

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Every ninja is a tool, no matter how much they try to fight, or deny it. Naruto is also a tool.

A tool used for the protection and betterment of the village (or society in more general terms), not a tool for one paticular leader's ideology and personal gain.

And maybe I'm being realy stupid and pointing out he obvious here, but . . .

Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
Brain > Strength

Brain < Strength if you know how to use it

Isn't intelligence knowing how to use your strengths?

In your definition of a tool, how is it different to protect and improve a village (entity) then from protecting a particular leaders

Someone who isn't very strong will have to rely on their intelligence. This would apply to Shika. For example, Shika knows when he has exerted too much of his chakra. His skills aren't very broad either, just the various shadow binds (at least that's all we've seen so far).

However, someone who is extremely strong, doesn't have to rely on their intelligence. For example, Naruto can just fight Shika head on. Why? Because shika's lacks strength. He can only try to shadow bind Naruto, but as we all know, the shadow bind can be repelled with a great amount of chakra (as shown by Tayuya @ level 2).

What I'm trying to say is that there is a limit to using your intelligence when your strength is limited.

jing

Wed, 05-05-2004, 03:32 PM

quote:In your definition of a tool, how is it different to protect and improve a village (entity) then from protecting a particular leaders

They are the same, but Tools like Zaku didn't even know he was a tool. First he was sent on a mission to get his ass kicked by sasuke. Then he was filled with bugs, his forearms exploded. Guess what, orochimaru wasn't even done with him. His body was sacrificed for some oro's jutsu. a kage shouldn't do those shits to his own ppl.

Naruto_-_Kun

Sun, 05-09-2004, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by: avmoghe
I thought the Hokage was defined to be the strongest ninja in the village. I'm almost sure that thats a direct quote from the opening chapters of the manga.

I've never doubted that the third hokage in his prime was stronger than Orochimaru. He says it himeslf saying something like ten years ago you could have killed me. Your own post has other indications as well supporting this.

What I AM doubting is whether the 4th hokage, Jiraiya, Tsunade etc are stronger than Orochimaru.

I've yet to see any strong evidence that either of those people are stronger than Orochimaru. I mean, Orochimaru is a 'once in decades genius' with craploads of potential... I doubt either of the others can match up to him.

And then again we have the fact that Orochimaru was the third's first choice for the next hokage.

So, until I see some indications that the 4th was any better.. I'll stick to believing that Orochimaru is the strongest, excepting the 3rd in his prime (and Itachi if Orochimaru's statement is to be believed).

I will agree with you however that the evidence is far from concrete.

im sorrrri i know this is from long ago, BUT if orochimaru WAS stronger than yondaime, couldnt he have just assassinated him, didnt he need to wait till he was dead b4 he atttacked konohona.....i think the fourth was stronger thats y orochimaru didnt just kill him