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View Full Version : Suggestion? Episode Progress Tracker


010577
Tue, 04-13-2004, 10:13 PM
Hey all...

I posted this in hoping that people respond KINDLY and no INSULTING here and there. I now state that I am posting this thread in true EARNEST and hope HONEST opinions be given, good or bad. Just go easy on the soul that just got naruto rendaned recently ok?

Ok first let me state my disposition: I am unaware if this has been discussed before, I don't know if I am posting in the right forum, I know this could get locked and could be inappropriate, I know therez been a lot of talk on ep. 78 and I am not meaning to add another useless thread.

I was wondering since Naruto is so popular, it is natural that it will be under the spotlight and a lot of attention will be on it. People, like me, find the TIMING of the episode airing by A/A very important (yes, I am one of those A/A people only). Sometimes, you can't blame people for posting questions wondering when the episode will come out. It is usually in good intention.

Question: Is it possible that there can be a tracker made for Naruto (and possibly other projects?) I guess a tracker would have maybe like 5 or so steps (raw received, draft subbing, quality check etc.), showing which stage the episode making process it is in. I suggest maybe a bar, or maybe a flow chart... or something that shows the progress or which stage Naruto making is in. I don't know anything about computers so I don't know if this is troublesome or not. If it isn't, I think it serves its purpose whether the episode is aired later than usual, or even when it is aired at its usual time, because:

1) people find it more convenient to check a tracker, then being in the unknown about when the ep. will be aired.
2) I am sure this will raise the popularity of A/A by people getting a more accurate grasp of whatz going on and more importantly, stop useless threads of asking when ep. will be aired
3) It can increase viewers knowledge and appreciate more the hard work subbers put into episodes

what do you guys think? letz discuss
Tass
Tue, 04-13-2004, 10:21 PM
i love the idea! not sure if its possible...or if it is, wether or not they'd do it...but it sounds like a great idea! ...thats just my opinion...
010577
Tue, 04-13-2004, 10:26 PM
glad someone likes it!

I like the idea very much and I hope it comes through.

Thanks
complich8
Tue, 04-13-2004, 11:06 PM
it's possible. It's easy.

It's also misleading. It'd have been stuck at 95% for about 48 hours now, and 90% for the 48 hours before that. People would be even MORE encouraged to ask that infernal question. We'd be even more irritated. And if we gave any more detail than a percentage, it'd single group members out, which isn't exactly team-oriented.
Assertn
Tue, 04-13-2004, 11:12 PM
anbu/aone is usually rather consistent with their releases....this is just an uncommon exception
Hokage Naruto
Wed, 04-14-2004, 12:06 AM
Yeah i think that idea is great. I hope they read this post.i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
RockLee
Wed, 04-14-2004, 01:24 AM
i like this idea...
AnimeEd
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:29 AM
a tracker?
why not just a web site with updates after each step?
it's soooooo much more simplier
i'll write it right now:
<html>
5% RAW in hand
</html>
basey44
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:40 AM
it sounds like a great idea but i must agree with complich8, it would just cause more complaints.

but it might not, maybe it would be the best thing ever created, who knows
Bloodhybrid
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:46 AM
well a thought would be just a time graph that has the different stages on
Rip.....encode.....sub.....check.....final check....complete
O=====O=====O====O======O=======O
Elessar
Wed, 04-14-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by: Hokage Naruto
Yeah i think that idea is great. I hope they read this post.i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
Complich8 has posted 2 posts above you, so yes, a member of animeone has read this.
But he is right, if the progress bar is stuck at 95% people will ask even more.
An idea with a good intention, but it will cause more harm than good.
010577
Wed, 04-14-2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by: complich8
it's possible. It's easy.

It's also misleading. It'd have been stuck at 95% for about 48 hours now, and 90% for the 48 hours before that. People would be even MORE encouraged to ask that infernal question. We'd be even more irritated. And if we gave any more detail than a percentage, it'd single group members out, which isn't exactly team-oriented.

A good point. A very good point indeed. But I have 2 things to say:

1) To ask or not to ask, I think the tracker will not encourage people to post that dreaded thread again and again. Reason being: One, people will not be in the dark about the process and having more "knowledge" at hand will educate the viewer. It would also help to write a note under tracker or time graph as Bloodhybrid said would get the message across more, as the first thing people will check before going into the forum for questions about a episode is checking the tracker. This will increase their decency as A/A has provided maximum update possible to their current situation, hence more respect for the process will be given. Two, I agree it can be frustrating to stop at 95% for a long time, but then this is also a sign that the tracker should be revised, so that the 95% mark should now be put as a 70% mark or so on. This will discourage the "itching" to ask the question.

2) As to teamwork, I am not a part of A/A and I do not know how you guys work. So I cannot argue with you about this. But can I tell you what I think as someone who doesn't know any of the team members?
Does it work if you leave the members in charge of certain processes anonymous? If it remain that way to the public, no pressure will be put to certain parts of the team. Maybe a "shuffling" of responsibilities within the team every so often so members do indeed remain anonymous? I think the only solution is letting the tracker portions remain as a "process" and not as an "individual", that way people will respect it as a whole.

But regards to point 2, I have to say that it will be emminent that more pressure will be put to individual effort. My suggestion is just like a bunshin. To be fair, I will restate that I think this is a con right now. But I think there are more pros that come with the deal.

let's talk about this more
010577
Wed, 04-14-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
anbu/aone is usually rather consistent with their releases....this is just an uncommon exception

sorry for double responding.

I think that would be all the better! I have to agree they are consistent and it further helps the program because ppl will see the consistency and find it reliable. Itz just marking your progress as you go.

I missed this point earlier on, but now I think a tracker is good for portions of the tracker that take longer than others. It is a good signal that if their speed is not up to par, A/A as a team should know the reason. After all, a team is consisted of individuals, that efficent individuals bring an efficient team. So breaking up the process helps the managing of A/A.
glitched
Wed, 04-14-2004, 09:44 AM
Saiyaman used to do somthing similar with this in his inuyasha forum, there was a sticky thread at the top of the forum that the only info in the thread was updates on how the episode was going (ex: Raw release, Translated, Edited, Timed, Encoded, Sub Release. )
Elessar
Wed, 04-14-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by: 010577
I missed this point earlier on, but now I think a tracker is good for portions of the tracker that take longer than others. It is a good signal that if their speed is not up to par, A/A as a team should know the reason. After all, a team is consisted of individuals, that efficent individuals bring an efficient team. So breaking up the process helps the managing of A/A.
But they all do this out of free will, they have no obligation to do it.
Constant pressure will most likely drive a lot of people away. What you say is true for a team of workers - emploied workers. You can't force people to do or not do sth in their free time.

If the tracker exposes the name of the person who is "responsible" for the delay the pressure (on IRC and elsewhere) will increase and "If you don't like my work, do it yourself." is not the last response to that that would come to my mind.

And i doubt that AonE needs a public progress bar to know what delayed the release of whatever anime. Complich8 seems well informed where and why N78 wasn't released yet. That they do not expose a individual but take even the "hard/not so good" times as a team shows that their teamwork is still functional.

@Bloodhybrid:
Raw....Translate.. ||: ..Edit....Time....Encode....Check.. :|| ..FinalCheck

Specail occasions like this one with change in Typeset, Karaoke etc not handled.
010577
Wed, 04-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by: Elessar


Originally posted by: 010577
I missed this point earlier on, but now I think a tracker is good for portions of the tracker that take longer than others. It is a good signal that if their speed is not up to par, A/A as a team should know the reason. After all, a team is consisted of individuals, that efficent individuals bring an efficient team. So breaking up the process helps the managing of A/A.
But they all do this out of free will, they have no obligation to do it.
Constant pressure will most likely drive a lot of people away. What you say is true for a team of workers - emploied workers. You can't force people to do or not do sth in their free time.

If the tracker exposes the name of the person who is "responsible" for the delay the pressure (on IRC and elsewhere) will increase and "If you don't like my work, do it yourself." is not the last response to that that would come to my mind.

And i doubt that AonE needs a public progress bar to know what delayed the release of whatever anime. Complich8 seems well informed where and why N78 wasn't released yet. That they do not expose a individual but take even the "hard/not so good" times as a team shows that their teamwork is still functional.

@Bloodhybrid:
Raw....Translate.. ||: ..Edit....Time....Encode....Check.. i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif| ..FinalCheck

Specail occasions like this one with change in Typeset, Karaoke etc not handled.

Im sorry I don't really comprehend what you are saying. I never wanted to expose the individuals in charge of certain parts. Please read my postings above about anonymity.
jrow7784
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:33 PM
maybe this has been already discussed before, but I dare ask anyways.

ANBU-AonE, I suppose, is the most popular choice of fansubs for Naruto, right? ANBU-AonE releases episodes at least every week to the day, right? ANBU-AonE reports when the newest episode is on the site for download, right? ANBU-AonE does a lot of quality maitenance, both to the graphics and subtitles, right?

What I don't understand from all this, is that while ANBU-AonE is very popular for the Naruto fan-subs, they've gotta know that fans are curious as to the whereabouts of episode 78, right? Why wouldn't they post a friendly news brief saying something like, "Right now, we are still in the process of working on Naruto episode 78. We will let you know when the episode is available for BT download."?

You draw a huge fan-base, and all it takes is one brief announcment to tell those not to threat and that Naruto episode 78 will be released.
010577
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by: jrow7784
maybe this has been already discussed before, but I dare ask anyways.

ANBU-AonE, I suppose, is the most popular choice of fansubs for Naruto, right? ANBU-AonE releases episodes at least every week to the day, right? ANBU-AonE reports when the newest episode is on the site for download, right? ANBU-AonE does a lot of quality maitenance, both to the graphics and subtitles, right?

What I don't understand from all this, is that while ANBU-AonE is very popular for the Naruto fan-subs, they've gotta know that fans are curious as to the whereabouts of episode 78, right? Why wouldn't they post a friendly news brief saying something like, "Right now, we are still in the process of working on Naruto episode 78. We will let you know when the episode is available for BT download."?

You draw a huge fan-base, and all it takes is one brief announcment to tell those not to threat and that Naruto episode 78 will be released.

worthy point. your idea and mine is based on giving more information and assurance to those waiting for the sub.
AnimeEd
Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:57 PM
if the 95% thing is a problem, then why use it?
just have a page telling people what stage you're on, any and all percentage number is abstract anyways
Mut
Wed, 04-14-2004, 07:16 PM
anbu-aone should just not release this one just to teach people about patience. maybe then people will shut up about the late releases and stop bothering everyone in anbu-aone and in the forums (whether it be gw or whatever).
gokudagreat
Wed, 04-14-2004, 07:23 PM
anime ed, all percantage numbers are not abstract. 1 is definitely 50 percent of 2.
Elessar
Wed, 04-14-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by: jrow7784
What I don't understand from all this, is that while ANBU-AonE is very popular for the Naruto fan-subs, they've gotta know that fans are curious as to the whereabouts of episode 78, right? Why wouldn't they post a friendly news brief saying something like, "Right now, we are still in the process of working on Naruto episode 78. We will let you know when the episode is available for BT download."?

You draw a huge fan-base, and all it takes is one brief announcment to tell those not to threat and that Naruto episode 78 will be released.
Peaple tend to not read those announcements. That is the problem. If a simple message would be enough, every group would do that. But as this works ANBU-AonE do the same as everyone else: ignore it. The release is out when it is out
Couple of months ago Inane couldn't obtain a decent quality Naruto raw to maintain their quality level and lagged nearly a week behind. They got insulted for that to the point that they weren't far away from stopping Naruto.

They held it back for some more days until enough reasonably intelligent people came up and the signal-to-noise-ratio was bearable again. Yet some fansites did accuse them in the news of not wanting to give the Naruto Manga to the fans because of whatever. They do not want to understand.
Feannag
Wed, 04-14-2004, 08:44 PM
Tracker? That seems like a bad idea. Mainly because A/A (which I'm sure like other subbers) are doing all this in their spare time. Plus I don't think they actually make any money off it. They do it because they want to, or they are devoted fans. More so than we are. It would be rude I think to try to implement things that would allow us to know what's going on.

It gets done when it gets done, leave it at that. If you're an A/A purist then wait until it comes out. If not, BakaSan and that other subber seems decent enough alternatives.
010577
Wed, 04-14-2004, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by: Mut@t@
anbu-aone should just not release this one just to teach people about patience. maybe then people will shut up about the late releases and stop bothering everyone in anbu-aone and in the forums (whether it be gw or whatever).

please read my first post. If you don't like the idea, give a reason and not just be mean. I know you probably have one, but pls don't leave unconstructive comments
jrow7784
Wed, 04-14-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by: Elessar


Originally posted by: jrow7784
What I don't understand from all this, is that while ANBU-AonE is very popular for the Naruto fan-subs, they've gotta know that fans are curious as to the whereabouts of episode 78, right? Why wouldn't they post a friendly news brief saying something like, "Right now, we are still in the process of working on Naruto episode 78. We will let you know when the episode is available for BT download."?

You draw a huge fan-base, and all it takes is one brief announcment to tell those not to threat and that Naruto episode 78 will be released.
Peaple tend to not read those announcements. That is the problem. If a simple message would be enough, every group would do that. But as this works ANBU-AonE do the same as everyone else: ignore it. The release is out when it is out
Couple of months ago Inane couldn't obtain a decent quality Naruto raw to maintain their quality level and lagged nearly a week behind. They got insulted for that to the point that they weren't far away from stopping Naruto.

They held it back for some more days until enough reasonably intelligent people came up and the signal-to-noise-ratio was bearable again. Yet some fansites did accuse them in the news of not wanting to give the Naruto Manga to the fans because of whatever. They do not want to understand.

so basically what you're telling me is that ANBU-AonE could care less about the people that support them, yet want us to donate money to them to support their efforts?

I'm not entirely complaining about this. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to catch up on Naruto (episode 41). I gotta tip-toe around the spoilers, ya see? Yet, I feel for people who are watching 79 raw get released today and are LOYAL enough to stick with A/A only.

Example: What if Team Ninja were to delay the Ninja Gaiden video game without notifing the general public? "It's February 24th, and the game isn't in stores yet" is just a taste of complaints Team Ninja would take. Oh, whats you're argument, that ANBU-AonE isn't a huge corporation like Team Ninja? It still falls under the same principal of fan appreciation. If you're falling behind on an episode and need more time to finish up shop, at least let the people know that the episode will come out soon instead of having topics such like, "Where's A/A 78?" or "When is A/A going to release ep. 78?" They could put an end to peoples constant complaining by posting a message on the main site.

"It's done when it's done." Is that the motto that floats around here constantly? I wish I could tell that to my boss everyday. "When are you going to finish that article?" "It's done when it's done."

I'm not complaining about the fact that they haven't released episode 78, I'm just mad that they aren't in any way, shape, or form notifing everyone of the delay.
riftwing
Thu, 04-15-2004, 03:39 AM
This has to be the most ridiculous idea I've ever seen. A progress meter? Aone is doing several projects other than naruto. Taking time to update a page to show what step they are on on subbing naruto just to show impatient fans where they're at is absolutely absurd and a waste of time.
complich8
Thu, 04-15-2004, 05:12 AM
I'm gonna vent a bit, about this one, because I'm tired and annoyed and a few too many buttons of mine have been pushed in the last 3 or 4 days, so I'm probably gonna come off sounding really pissed and I am probably perceptibly overreacting, but don't take it personally.



Originally posted by: jrow7784
so basically what you're telling me is that ANBU-AonE could care less about the people that support them, yet want us to donate money to them to support their efforts?

I'm not entirely complaining about this. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to catch up on Naruto (episode 41). I gotta tip-toe around the spoilers, ya see? Yet, I feel for people who are watching 79 raw get released today and are LOYAL enough to stick with A/A only.

Example: What if Team Ninja were to delay the Ninja Gaiden video game without notifing the general public? "It's February 24th, and the game isn't in stores yet" is just a taste of complaints Team Ninja would take. Oh, whats you're argument, that ANBU-AonE isn't a huge corporation like Team Ninja? It still falls under the same principal of fan appreciation. If you're falling behind on an episode and need more time to finish up shop, at least let the people know that the episode will come out soon instead of having topics such like, "Where's A/A 78?" or "When is A/A going to release ep. 78?" They could put an end to peoples constant complaining by posting a message on the main site.

"It's done when it's done." Is that the motto that floats around here constantly? I wish I could tell that to my boss everyday. "When are you going to finish that article?" "It's done when it's done."

I'm not complaining about the fact that they haven't released episode 78, I'm just mad that they aren't in any way, shape, or form notifing everyone of the delay.

rejections:

1: first off, we DO appreciate the sentiment of those who are patient enough to wait for us. It makes us feel good, and helps to motivate us in an increasingly negative environment.

2: we don't want your money. we could care less, it'd be at very least unethical for us as fansubbers to accept your money. gotwoot, while associated with animeone and anbu, is an independent entity. if you donate to gotwoot, you're donating to gotwoot to help offset their costs to keep offering you bittorrent and forum communities, but you're not donating to us. If you're donating to some other site, you're not even sending money in a direction remotely close to ours. Never do we ask for money, and we in fact tell you NOT to be paying for this stuff. Then, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of donating going on either.

3: we never specified a release date. Quite to the contrary, we have REPEATEDLY in MULTIPLE PLACES said that we do NOT KNOW when we will have releases out. things come up. things happen. we have lives. we have classes and exams and personal problems and we're human too, and we acknowledge the fact. Because we never specified a date for a release, I don't personally see a reason to revise one. Even now, with "the progress meter" stuck at 96% now, as a member of the crew who has given about 9 hours of his own free time to this one episode, I don't know when it'll be out. EVEN NOW. (I explain this, among other places, in the AnimeOne Rules Page (http://archlich.dyndns.org/AonE_rules.html), though the animesuki rules page (http://forums.animesuki.com/announcement.php?f=17&announcementid=2) also explains this pretty similarly). We never claimed we'd have it done in 2 days. We never promised it'd be out by Saturday morning. The only reason people think we _do_ have a specific schedule is that the naruto team in particular is experienced enough and skilled enough that the overall consistency level is pretty high. Most combinations both within ANBU and within AnimeOne are relatively consistent... but I don't see a whole lot of people complaining that we're 3 weeks behind on gokusen, or several weeks late on hxh. Even the most consistent groups in the community still aren't machines.

4: When the programmers were writing ninja gaiden, they DIDN'T have classes, or exams, or other projects. They were professionals. Game designers operate in a controlled environment, and get paid to do so, and at the same time they STILL have delays and difficulties that delay things (see also: doom 3, halflife 2). While they give notice that they'll delay stuff, they are just revising previously stated estimates. Again, we can't even give those estimates to begin with.

5: when the programmers of the games you love and the manufacturers of your favorite hardware delay things, it's typically not by a week or so. It's typically by months. a little patience in the scope would be appreciated.

6: When you have to write an article for your job, you're GETTING PAID TO DO IT. Presumably, anyway, it's something like an occupation to you. Fansubbing is a hobby for us, though we take it seriously and take pride in it and all. Today I woke up, I went to work, I was there for nearly 10 hours. I came back, I worked for nearly 3 hours to try to get this script to move, learning new skills and applying my ability to figure things out in order to do a job that's not what I normally do, so I can try to help cover for someone a little bit. The last thing I need is people being critical of the group's lack of transparency, or complaints that a member of a community that as a whole has always had the model "when it's out, we'll tell you" (denote distinct event) isn't notifying you of the nondistinct event "they're working on it" (which I'll rant more about in a couple more bullet points).

7: nevertheless, I personally HAVE (as has been repeatedly pointed out) explained both where the episode is and why it is where it is. thanks for noticing, it's good to know people are paying attention.

8: moreover, you can safely draw the presumption that we're working on it, from the time it airs until the time it is released. You'll be right. We're not vacationing somewhere. We're not sitting around doing nothing. We're busy working on stuff until it's released. The general concept of "notifying you" that we're working on it would be INSANELY repetitive. You might as well ask us "are you breathing?" or expect us to notify you that we are on regular intervals?

9: there are news sites. There are topics. There are countless threads. The information "it's not out yet" is pretty readily available... be confident that if nothing says it's out, it's probably not out, but probably on the way. Note the littered trail of locked threads about naruto 78 and "when is it gonna be out" which is also pretty visible. Does it help you to know that 3 things might be stuck waiting for qc, and another 2 things are waiting for typeset, and another 4 are currently being edited? What does this information do for you, other than assure you that we're still breathing? It doesn't tell you when it'll be out (96%, still waiting on that last 4 ....). It doesn't even tell you whether it'll be soon (qc can mean qc which will fail, get fixed, fail again, get fixed again, fail again, go to an rc 8 or 9 and have each iteration take 2 days).

I think I'm about done ranting about this now, but in conclusion, think of how I personally feel in the role of "fansubber who is being bitched at for not giving you useless information" and maybe try to develop a little empathy. We're not yours, we're not professionals, we're not paid (and we don't really want to be), we're not machines, we're just doing our thing. Please respect that. Thanks.
jrow7784
Thu, 04-15-2004, 06:30 AM
rejections:

1: first off, we DO appreciate the sentiment of those who are patient enough to wait for us. It makes us feel good, and helps to motivate us in an increasingly negative environment.

2: we don't want your money. we could care less, it'd be at very least unethical for us as fansubbers to accept your money. gotwoot, while associated with animeone and anbu, is an independent entity. if you donate to gotwoot, you're donating to gotwoot to help offset their costs to keep offering you bittorrent and forum communities, but you're not donating to us. If you're donating to some other site, you're not even sending money in a direction remotely close to ours. Never do we ask for money, and we in fact tell you NOT to be paying for this stuff. Then, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of donating going on either.

3: we never specified a release date. Quite to the contrary, we have REPEATEDLY in MULTIPLE PLACES said that we do NOT KNOW when we will have releases out. things come up. things happen. we have lives. we have classes and exams and personal problems and we're human too, and we acknowledge the fact. Because we never specified a date for a release, I don't personally see a reason to revise one. Even now, with "the progress meter" stuck at 96% now, as a member of the crew who has given about 9 hours of his own free time to this one episode, I don't know when it'll be out. EVEN NOW. (I explain this, among other places, in the AnimeOne Rules Page (http://archlich.dyndns.org/AonE_rules.html), though the animesuki rules page (http://forums.animesuki.com/announcement.php?f=17&announcementid=2) also explains this pretty similarly). We never claimed we'd have it done in 2 days. We never promised it'd be out by Saturday morning. The only reason people think we _do_ have a specific schedule is that the naruto team in particular is experienced enough and skilled enough that the overall consistency level is pretty high. Most combinations both within ANBU and within AnimeOne are relatively consistent... but I don't see a whole lot of people complaining that we're 3 weeks behind on gokusen, or several weeks late on hxh. Even the most consistent groups in the community still aren't machines.

4: When the programmers were writing ninja gaiden, they DIDN'T have classes, or exams, or other projects. They were professionals. Game designers operate in a controlled environment, and get paid to do so, and at the same time they STILL have delays and difficulties that delay things (see also: doom 3, halflife 2). While they give notice that they'll delay stuff, they are just revising previously stated estimates. Again, we can't even give those estimates to begin with.

5: when the programmers of the games you love and the manufacturers of your favorite hardware delay things, it's typically not by a week or so. It's typically by months. a little patience in the scope would be appreciated.

6: When you have to write an article for your job, you're GETTING PAID TO DO IT. Presumably, anyway, it's something like an occupation to you. Fansubbing is a hobby for us, though we take it seriously and take pride in it and all. Today I woke up, I went to work, I was there for nearly 10 hours. I came back, I worked for nearly 3 hours to try to get this script to move, learning new skills and applying my ability to figure things out in order to do a job that's not what I normally do, so I can try to help cover for someone a little bit. The last thing I need is people being critical of the group's lack of transparency, or complaints that a member of a community that as a whole has always had the model "when it's out, we'll tell you" (denote distinct event) isn't notifying you of the nondistinct event "they're working on it" (which I'll rant more about in a couple more bullet points).

7: nevertheless, I personally HAVE (as has been repeatedly pointed out) explained both where the episode is and why it is where it is. thanks for noticing, it's good to know people are paying attention.

8: moreover, you can safely draw the presumption that we're working on it, from the time it airs until the time it is released. You'll be right. We're not vacationing somewhere. We're not sitting around doing nothing. We're busy working on stuff until it's released. The general concept of "notifying you" that we're working on it would be INSANELY repetitive. You might as well ask us "are you breathing?" or expect us to notify you that we are on regular intervals?

9: there are news sites. There are topics. There are countless threads. The information "it's not out yet" is pretty readily available... be confident that if nothing says it's out, it's probably not out, but probably on the way. Note the littered trail of locked threads about naruto 78 and "when is it gonna be out" which is also pretty visible. Does it help you to know that 3 things might be stuck waiting for qc, and another 2 things are waiting for typeset, and another 4 are currently being edited? What does this information do for you, other than assure you that we're still breathing? It doesn't tell you when it'll be out (96%, still waiting on that last 4 ....). It doesn't even tell you whether it'll be soon (qc can mean qc which will fail, get fixed, fail again, get fixed again, fail again, go to an rc 8 or 9 and have each iteration take 2 days).

I think I'm about done ranting about this now, but in conclusion, think of how I personally feel in the role of "fansubber who is being bitched at for not giving you useless information" and maybe try to develop a little empathy. We're not yours, we're not professionals, we're not paid (and we don't really want to be), we're not machines, we're just doing our thing. Please respect that. Thanks.[/quote]

OK, you're mad, with a purpose. When you write a reply as long as you did, it's easily recognizable that you're pissed. While I can't say I understand how you feel about these complaints, I see where you may be in the right.

This is the most reasonable reply on A/A in regards to the release of 78. It answers questions unlike the usual, "shut up and wait for it." And it has depth, and passion.

I'm not asking the world out of you (some people may), all I'm saying is to give a clear-cut explanation of just whats going on, due to the rapid posts about "wheres my Naruto!?". By answering "shut up and wait" is not a good approach to getting people to just shut up and wait, it only makes them more impatient, thus leading to more posting and spamming.

I just read this from you in another thread.

the karaoke effect our sfx guy created is really really heavy to encode, and really complex. You'll like it though. I can do my part without the whole thing encoded, for the most part (I'm qc). Crustol and I have already gotten the final script pretty well polished, just waiting on the sfx/karaoke guys to apply fixes to the opening script and to give us an ending that looks pretty. Then of course, because the sfx are really insanely heavy it'll be a bit longer encode time too...

Thats all you needed to say.
Elessar
Thu, 04-15-2004, 08:57 AM
He sad it but nobody cared! That was posted DAYS ago.

Ppl talk about more information yet they aren't even capable of understanding the little information they can get. AonE has no webpage, gotwoot is an independent community that just happens to do the vast majority of BitTorrent distro for AonE because some ppl from gotwoot know some ppl from AonE. The one and only official information source for AonE that exists is their IRC channel and its topic (once more something nobody bothers to read).

Comlich8 is NOT here as an official AonE representative who has to inform you. He's no marketing guru. He is here because he considers himself as a part of the anime community (plz correct me if I am wrong) and shares his information with us so that we can get a better grasp of what's going on inside a fansub group.

And a few additions to the PayPal buttons spreading the world:
- GotWoot is not driven out of donations. There are people behind gw that pay the bills every month. The button is there so that you can donate if you want.
- GotWoot never asked for donations to run its servers. And never will as far as my insight of Gotwoot is (% in #gotwoot i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif)
- GotWoot does not list sites as their affiliates that actively collect donations / rely on them (monthly donations goal etc)
- AonE does not have a PayPal account (at least none I am aware of)
- AonE encodes in every release that it is a free fansub. Not for sale, rent or ebay
- there were some sites that wanted to start direct downloads for ANBU-AonE's version of Naruto on a per donations accounting system. AonE contacted them upon hearing of it and told them to either (i) host their releases for everyone for free or (ii) don't host their files at all

Other than that: (mostly @ jrow7784)
- there was information available, but nobody read it. Starting a new topic is more comfortable.
- fansubs work on an "we'll tell you when it is done" basis since I got "involved" some 7 years ago. And it worked - back in that time.
- they (aone) have no main site to post on as they have no site at all. stop confusing things.
- your boss pays you therefor you have an obligation towards him. Pay 'team animeone' their bills so they can work on fansubs fulltime and you will get the right to demand things too. Until then....

And a last example that comes to my mind: 12KTP. Some of the highest quality fansubs floating the net, therefor taking about 4-8+ weeks per episode. And they have something like a progress bar, they inform everyone interested how the new episode advances, step for step for step. Doesn't really work - the "when is it ready?" "when will you release it?" remains. It is just less as they do only one series and that isn't very popular and/or easy to understand.
jrow7784
Thu, 04-15-2004, 10:27 AM
all i'm saying is let the people know what the hell is going on so that they don't keep spamming the forums with posts. That's all I've been trying to say.

You can end all the bitching with just a little notice to everyone. That way, pressure is relieved from your shoulders and people will be patient with you, knowing that eventually, they will see your fansub of the latest episode of Naruto.

I've put in my 2 cents on the issue. This forum has become annoying. I wont be back to read the next post, so therefore, do as you please.
Jed
Thu, 04-15-2004, 10:38 AM
First of all, props to compy to responding to a thread like this without completely losing it. compy is da man!!! hehe.

In my opinion, progress trackers create more problems than they solve. Yes, I understand that you want to know when the episode is going to be out. Yes, I understand that you have good intentions and mean well. However, what you don't realize is that there are tens of thousands of other people exactly like you, compared to about 10-15 people who work on the project. The tracker will only get people more excited. As compy said before, it spent 2 days at 90% and 2 more days at 95%. Do you think you would be able to sit and calmly wait for 4 days knowing that the episode is almost ready? You might, but what about the other tens of thousands of other people like you? The tracker would stress you out (you'll be checking the site more often to see if there was an update/if it was released), and it would stress out the crew working on the episode ("is it done yet?" x 10000). There is no point for this extra stress for anyone. Experience has shown that leaving the general public in the dark about releases makes the world a better place for everyone. Sure, you may not like not knowing... but who says knowing is better?

As for the whole Ninja Gaiden thing, I'll pretend I didn't see it. We do not announce release dates. We don't work 8 hour days. We don't get paid to do this. Release dates don't really mean anything. You speak of fan appreciation... would true fans wait an extra week or month or two for a higher quality release?

Oh, and compy, if you ever need help with qc or anything, AIM me if I'm around.

Jed
Jed
Thu, 04-15-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by: jrow7784
I've put in my 2 cents on the issue. This forum has become annoying. I wont be back to read the next post, so therefore, do as you please.

sigh i feel so used i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif
010577
Thu, 04-15-2004, 11:44 AM
ok a lot of new comments since my last login.

Want to address these problems:

ok first off jrow you were just being nuisance. A/A didn't mean to come out bad about the situation but i think u gave the event a decisive turn towards the bad. But oh well, what can you expect, itz a forum and everyone's idea is taken. The whole idea was for the public and A/A to get a consensus and not blame them, since i never thought for a moment they are doing an insufficient job.

As to reply to complich, thanx for taking time to explain:
just in reply to some of your points:
3) we don't expect you to come out with ep. on certan dates. Some ppl take it for granted yes, but most of us are just curious cats
6) I know you're not getting paid for it, but the idea is not to force you guys into a certain standard, but to raise standards. If it does so at the cost of nothing, great. WHy not? If opportunity costs are too high, then dump the idea.
7) I know you have explained the situation before, but not everyone will see your personal posts.
8) Crucial point here. I think the main argument is that Does it help you to know that 3 things might be stuck waiting for qc, and another 2 things are waiting for typeset, and another 4 are currently being edited? stuff will inform us and increase our knowledge on anime subbing. Besides the hassle gone through to put it on the website, it is actually interesting for me to know the exact process. I hope the many steps allows viewers to be less relentless in the forums too, maybe they think it takes a simpler process to complete subbing? Now they know itz hard.
In reply to your conclusion, this thread was never meant to make you our workers. I hate to think you got that idea from anyone in this thread because it wasn't intended that way. After all, we are only talking about a small tracker. Let's try to think of this tracker as an addition to improve gotwoot. Like what you guys have always been trying to do. If it doesn't improve, then reject the idea.


To elessar: Glad you raised some critical points. I think the idea is that we are not trying to exploit GW of whatever it can do for us, but we are trying to review whether a tracker would help. After all, it is up to GW to put it up, hence the title of this tread is a suggestion.

To Jed: I posted this earlier in the thread: 95% is abstract if it is merely a percentage. What if we revised 95% to 75%, knowing that the final process usually takes longer? The tracker after all, if we have numbers associated with it, will need a definite progress meaning to each step. So only after experience and many revisions will the tracker run close to the real world time it takes for the process.
010577
Thu, 04-15-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by: Jed


Originally posted by: jrow7784
I've put in my 2 cents on the issue. This forum has become annoying. I wont be back to read the next post, so therefore, do as you please.

sigh i feel so used i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Just to reply to this stay in the dark issue:

Thatz pointless. Ever heard of "ignorant ppl cannot get hurt?" You're right if this line is true, because everyone seeks truth in their life. We educate ourselves so we know more. Why? There is a certain truth we seek. In this case, I think everyone is intelligent ehough to "assume" the ep. will be aired on Sunday morning, as "trends" and statistics show that A/A usually does that. If everyone couldn't guess the air date, all would be fine. It is all a matter of giving enough teasers so viewers stay sedated enough to not itch. I think a correct reflection of the situation with a tracker gives ppl satisfaction or insurance if you like.

Is this thread getting too long? Are my ideas completely pointless? Tell me.
Mut
Thu, 04-15-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by: 010577


Originally posted by: Mut@t@
anbu-aone should just not release this one just to teach people about patience. maybe then people will shut up about the late releases and stop bothering everyone in anbu-aone and in the forums (whether it be gw or whatever).

please read my first post. If you don't like the idea, give a reason and not just be mean. I know you probably have one, but pls don't leave unconstructive comments

how am i being mean? i made it clear as to why i think anbu-aone should not release it. i got my opinions like you have your's. don't try to stop me from posting them.
010577
Thu, 04-15-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: 010577


Originally posted by: Mut@t@
anbu-aone should just not release this one just to teach people about patience. maybe then people will shut up about the late releases and stop bothering everyone in anbu-aone and in the forums (whether it be gw or whatever).

please read my first post. If you don't like the idea, give a reason and not just be mean. I know you probably have one, but pls don't leave unconstructive comments

how am i being mean? i made it clear as to why i think anbu-aone should not release it. i got my opinions like you have your's. don't try to stop me from posting them.

i never tried u to stop posting them. Where did you make it clear?
To teach people about patience is not a reason. The tracker is unrelated to 78
Jed
Thu, 04-15-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by: 010577
To Jed: I posted this earlier in the thread: 95% is abstract if it is merely a percentage. What if we revised 95% to 75%, knowing that the final process usually takes longer? The tracker after all, if we have numbers associated with it, will need a definite progress meaning to each step. So only after experience and many revisions will the tracker run close to the real world time it takes for the process.

No. 95% is very accurate.

5% = have raw
20% = trans done
35% = editing done
50% = timing done
65% = typesetting done
80% = encoding done
81-98% = qc
99% = distro
100% = release

Thats a rough but fairly accurate percent distribution for an episode that gets released "on time". However, the problem arises when the process hits a snag and everything gets delayed. Usually that happens somewhere during the qc part of the process (which is why it spent 48 hours at 90% and 48 at 95%). QC involves checking and fixing any errors from other parts of the fansub process. Editing errors are easy to fix, but translation errors are hard to detect and require the translator to fix. Timing errors can only be fixed if you know how to time. Typesetting, on the other hard, can get quite complicated... especially sfx (hi eise) and usually only the typesetter can fix it, but it depends on the error. You get the idea.




Originally posted by: 010577


Originally posted by: Jed


Originally posted by: jrow7784
I've put in my 2 cents on the issue. This forum has become annoying. I wont be back to read the next post, so therefore, do as you please.

sigh i feel so used i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Just to reply to this stay in the dark issue:

Thatz pointless. Ever heard of "ignorant ppl cannot get hurt?" You're right if this line is true, because everyone seeks truth in their life. We educate ourselves so we know more. Why? There is a certain truth we seek. In this case, I think everyone is intelligent ehough to "assume" the ep. will be aired on Sunday morning, as "trends" and statistics show that A/A usually does that. If everyone couldn't guess the air date, all would be fine. It is all a matter of giving enough teasers so viewers stay sedated enough to not itch. I think a correct reflection of the situation with a tracker gives ppl satisfaction or insurance if you like.

Is this thread getting too long? Are my ideas completely pointless? Tell me.


Huh? I dont know what you mean at all, but what I meant was that I typed out a response to him and he's not going to come back and read it...
Jed
Thu, 04-15-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by: 010577


Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: 010577


Originally posted by: Mut@t@
anbu-aone should just not release this one just to teach people about patience. maybe then people will shut up about the late releases and stop bothering everyone in anbu-aone and in the forums (whether it be gw or whatever).

please read my first post. If you don't like the idea, give a reason and not just be mean. I know you probably have one, but pls don't leave unconstructive comments

how am i being mean? i made it clear as to why i think anbu-aone should not release it. i got my opinions like you have your's. don't try to stop me from posting them.

i never tried u to stop posting them. Where did you make it clear?
To teach people about patience is not a reason. The tracker is unrelated to 78

The "tracker" issue comes up every-so-often in one form or another, and the answer is the same, every single time.
Mut
Thu, 04-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by: 010577
i never tried u to stop posting them. Where did you make it clear?
To teach people about patience is not a reason. The tracker is unrelated to 78

1. i made it perfectly clear. but maybe you weren't aware of a similar issue with the manga.
2. the episode number isn't important, i'm just using this episode as an example.
3. to teach people about patience is the reason. the 'tracker' is helpful for *some* people but if you look at the greater picture, the 'tracker' doesn't really solve anything. there will always be people whining and complaining about the release and progress of it. i'm not trying to pick on you or any other specific person but a lot of people just don't care about many things, especially READING. let me just make an example. mods/admins here at gotwoot made it clear in the rules that THEY will be the ones to post "OFFICIAL EPISDE XX THREAD" yet other random forum goers decide to post it. and it's the same with the "When is episode XX coming out?" threads. there were at least several similar and related threads on the first page but people want everything directly handed to them so they make a repeat thread anyway. let me tell you about the manga issue just in case you weren't familiar with it. i forgot what chapter it was (probably in early 200's) but one week, inane was late on their release date (still haven't released it by that time). people went bitching and whining to inane at their forums/irc chan/etc. and inane got fed up with it. of course, there were some side issues, but inane made it clear on their site that they are doing a free service and they don't owe us anything so they threaten to stop scanlating naruto if we kept bitching. and then after that, problem was some what solved. do you understand what i'm trying to get at now? i'm not saying that the tracker is a bad idea or anything, i just feel that people are spoiled and start crying as soon as they notice a 1 second delay in the release time. anyway, i just wanted to make clear that i never bad mouthed the tracker idea you just misunderstood what i meant...at any rate, i'm going way OT, my bad.
Wilik
Thu, 04-15-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by: Elessar
He sad it but nobody cared! That was posted DAYS ago.

Ppl talk about more information yet they aren't even capable of understanding the little information they can get. AonE has no webpage, gotwoot is an independent community that just happens to do the vast majority of BitTorrent distro for AonE because some ppl from gotwoot know some ppl from AonE. The one and only official information source for AonE that exists is their IRC channel and its topic (once more something nobody bothers to read).

All tho we are associated with AonE/ANBU we are not thier "offical" website. We just help them distro thier releases. You may see a few of the people that work for AonE/ANBU on the forums but they are just there to enjoy the community aspect that Gotwoot provides. As Elessar said, the only place to obtain offical information on any AonE/ANBU release is thier irc channel (#animeone@irc.rizon.org)



Originally posted by: Elessar
And a few additions to the PayPal buttons spreading the world:
- GotWoot is not driven out of donations. There are people behind gw that pay the bills every month. The button is there so that you can donate if you want.
- GotWoot never asked for donations to run its servers. And never will as far as my insight of Gotwoot is (% in #gotwoot i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif)
- GotWoot does not list sites as their affiliates that actively collect donations / rely on them (monthly donations goal etc)
- AonE does not have a PayPal account (at least none I am aware of)
- AonE encodes in every release that it is a free fansub. Not for sale, rent or ebay
- there were some sites that wanted to start direct downloads for ANBU-AonE's version of Naruto on a per donations accounting system. AonE contacted them upon hearing of it and told them to either (i) host their releases for everyone for free or (ii) don't host their files at all

Gotwoot will most certainly not die if we dont not recieve any donations, we pay for our servers out of our own pockets and will continue to do so for as long as we possibly can. All donations that are made to Gotwoot however are used to enhance the community, like adding more ram to our servers, increasing our bandwidth (current bandwidth usage for our website is around 1TB a month), or getting better software (like these forums). It is true we do not affilate with anyone that actively collect donations by requesting them on thier homepage. Our motto is, if you cant pay to run a website by yourself, dont run a website. This is because people will not always be there to donate to you. What happens if naruto gets licensed? Will all those sites that currently are devoted to it continue to thrive? Probably not because less and less people will goto them as the reason for them going there has dissapeared.

We are actively agaisnt any website that charges users to download anime from thier website, even if they DO offer direct downloads. Again this is just a ploy to get people to goto thier website and give them money. The fansubs are free and as such you should not pay for them under any circumstances.
Mut
Thu, 04-15-2004, 09:29 PM
i think gotwoot deserve a hug, they rock.
Assertn
Thu, 04-15-2004, 09:32 PM
awwww....a cornicopia of love.......
010577
Fri, 04-16-2004, 09:41 AM
i think itz pretty obvious there will be no tracker.

Quite a lot of positive feedback but also negative

End of thread.
r3n
Fri, 04-16-2004, 11:37 AM
there used to be a tracker for when bakasan were subbing, i found it pretty helpful i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
HokageVirus
Fri, 04-16-2004, 12:00 PM
yeah...im an idiot. please tell me waht qc stands for? i had an annoying post her, but read farther and learned mroe. sorry for thos ewho got mad at me, after reading my origonal post. (if any)

oh, and how much would upgrading gotwoot to 5TB cost? i know bandwidth is ricidulousley expencive, but seeing as i download more then jsut naruto ofa it, and like it substantially, i would like to maybe help in some way. (i doubt i got the monet to add 4TB but, still, itd be good to know what the goal cost would be)