Iraq War [Archive] - Gotwoot Forums

Assertn

Sat, 04-10-2004, 04:02 PM

deception was even worse back before media had as much influence as it did now

you guys talk about how the US lies and stuff....but did you know that Saddam used to kill his own people and point fingers at other countries just to gain more support?
people outside of the US like to just sit there and whine about stuff, but its because of Saddam that Iraq is the way it is now, and his influence over the people just decieves them into believing that whatever he says is the right way. Therefore the deaths on their side is because they are fighting for the beliefs that saddam brainwashed into them, the US isnt purposely killing iraqis

and Vagabond, dont try to be condescending as if you actually know whats good for the world.....im sure if a bunch of foreigners start dissing everyone in your country because your government decided to get involved in global affairs, then you'd be acting the same way we would

edit: ok i didnt realize you were actually in america......i guess i wouldve expected that from someone from another country

MemnochTheCaT

Sat, 04-10-2004, 05:40 PM

It's amazing how people react to coverage of casualties these days. This is nothing like WW1, WW2, or even Korea or Vietnam. All death is bad, especially civilian death, but it's not on the same scale that it has traditionally occurred, and that is something to be thankful for.

My personal feelings on the Iraq situation, are that things were horrible before, horrible now, and will be horrible in the future .. the reason? Too many competing political/religious/business/government groups who all seem to hate each other and will kill as many people as they want to wrest control. Saddam's Baathist murderers are a drop in the bucket to the bloody ambition of the fundamentalist Shiites, who overwhelmingly support a hard-line Islamic government. I have nothing against the islamic faith, but it's a proven fact that islamic governments are notorious for oppressing their citizens, often with bloodythirsty vengeance towards ANY questioning of the rulers.

It's just a big fat messy mistake, that is just going to get worse until the US finally decides it's tired of bringing back it's people in body bags and coffins. Some situations are just lose-lose.

Swallow Your Soul

Sat, 04-10-2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
deception was even worse back before media had as much influence as it did now

you guys talk about how the US lies and stuff....but did you know that Saddam used to kill his own people and point fingers at other countries just to gain more support?
people outside of the US like to just sit there and whine about stuff, but its because of Saddam that Iraq is the way it is now, and his influence over the people just decieves them into believing that whatever he says is the right way. Therefore the deaths on their side is because they are fighting for the beliefs that saddam brainwashed into them, the US isnt purposely killing iraqis

and Vagabond, dont try to be condescending as if you actually know whats good for the world.....im sure if a bunch of foreigners start dissing everyone in your country because your government decided to get involved in global affairs, then you'd be acting the same way we would

edit: ok i didnt realize you were actually in america......i guess i wouldve expected that from someone from another country

It isn't about 'dissing' Americans...it is criticising the American government...and thats a very different thing...I'm anti war (because Iraq posed no threat to the majority of the world and had fuck all to do with 9/11 - the american (and us english who allied with them) government pretty much used 9/11 as an excuse to tie Iraq and Saddam, with the Taliban and Bin Laden (when in fact the two hated each other and were totally against each other)) and my government went into this war supporting the US government (demonstrating IMO that Tony Blair has no spine). "a bunch of foreigners" can diss the UK all they want for all I care because my government don't represent me, and they don't represent the people of the UK, because our so-called left-wing government is just totally up the arse of the American government...

The biggest tragedy in recent American history was dispicably manipulated by those in power as an excuse to go to war with Iraq...yes Saddam Hussein should have been sorted out but it isn't for America just go against what the UN say and just invade because they don't like the politics (even if Hussein was totally dispicable towards his own country). Are they just gonna invade everyone whose politics they don't like? Because there are a shitload of countries who also have appalling human rights...are they all going to be invaded? The government mis-represented information as if it was a bullet proof case to go to war...yet a whole load of the information (at least from what I've seen) was flawed and much of it was very open to interpretation...thus going to war (in the first "pre-emptive" war ever as far as I know) was unjustifiable...

Hussein had no interest in any war against the west, he did unspeakable things to his own people, that isn't in question...but the reasons given by the US and the UK about a pre-emptive war weren't in my opinion justifiable...and to the guy who says its amazing how people act tough behind their computer...this isn't acting tough, it is just an opinion...when the non-existant weapons of mass destruction and the mis-interpreted information from years and years ago about the whole '45 minute' thing (by which time any weapons would no longer be usable anyway as the ones in question had a much shorter shelf life), when the weapons of mass destruction weren't proved...THEN they started changing their reasons for going to war...and now Colin Powell admits that the pre-war intelligence could have been flawed! ( Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3596033.stm) )

I'm not against Saddam being punished for his crimes, but I find the idea very scary the amount of manipulation that is resulting from 9/11...and I won't even go into the USA Patriot Act!!! I also won't go into how companies are manipulating this situation to make money (including the first Burger King to be in Baghdad)...

Ah well, politics never go well on this board...I don't know why that is...on another forum I go to political arguments aren't necessarily treated with such apprehension...its quite sad that politics can't be discussed because 'it'll turn ugly'... i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

r3n

Sat, 04-10-2004, 06:19 PM

hey i know, lets skip to the end result of this thread:

the american government doesnt give a shit about anyone but itself! and if you think otherwise.....

you're a moron!

Assertn

Sat, 04-10-2004, 06:20 PM

the point im making though is that ive known people on this forum to target americans in general for the things that our government does...which is totally wrong to do

besides....nobody truly knows if the results of a war is good or not, because the events change entirely as a result....maybe saddam wouldve actually done some drastic things in the near future if he was left alone...maybe not....but if he WAS going to, then nobody will know about that now, and all that will be acknowledged was that the US was just bullying iraq around

yes thank you r3n....a very appropriate label for the melting pot of the world
wups, forgot my sarcasm tags i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Swallow Your Soul

Sat, 04-10-2004, 06:31 PM

I just think that there has been no hard evidence to suggest that Iraq were able to, were ever planning to, or even would ever be able to attack the west from Iraq...thats what I don't like about it...

Yes you are very right though when you say people who target Americans in general for actions carried out by their government is totally wrong...or any country for that matter (I've also seen Americans and Brits targetting French people because their government opposed the war).

Having an opinion either way is fine, I can see the situation from the pro-war angle, even though I don't agree with it I can still respect it, as everyone is going to have differing opinions but it is when people say something like "if you think something that is open to debate is 'this' then you are a whiny moron" that is ignorant (I'm not aiming this at you AssertnFailure btw...I have just encountered a few people (including my Dad - I've learned not to argue with him though it took me a few years lol i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif ) who do actually say stuff like that.

ps - anyone who saw the first line from my original post - I mis-interpreted the post I'm responding to so I got rid of it...

Lego

Sat, 04-10-2004, 08:28 PM

I really don't have a pro-war or anti-war opinion.

Even if i wanted no war, i can't do didly squat about it. March down a street? Pfft, no one listens.

Even if i was pro war, i couldn't do anything also, watch TV all day for explosion coverage?

I treat it as news, and thats all it is. The TV network news stations need ratings, want you to watch, thats why they have lead ins like "Tonight on the so and so show, is iraq turning into blarghy?"

Then they have a retired war guy, talking about something he would do the exact same thing for.

Even during the day, news agencies want the best coverage.

But thats getting off the point.

I do agree that i HATE people of any country, even mine that generalize. Ive met people online, especially those idiot brazillians last night in the room that kept saying in portugese all americans are stupid etc.

Im sure most would agree with me that we have our idiots(jessica simpson,bill o'rielly, etc) but most of us are pretty smart.

People say all americans are bad/evil/kicked a dog. Good for them. As many of you who know me from spending time in #animeone, or from the short time on the forum, i don't instegate much. Post funny links, give commetary, nothing that would make you go off.

Thats the other thing about the internet, being anonymous. Someone can pop in a pro-war/anti-war chatroom, hell even #animeone and go:

SO AND SO DIE DIE DIE
SO AND SO I HOPE ALL OF YOU DIE FROM SO AND SO

Like that picture arguing over the internet is like running in the special olympics.

I don't give a dam what country your from. You treat me with respect,listen to my opinions,don't down everything i say, ill treat you equally.

Its the people on both sides that want to try to force a opinion on you, or think their opinion is king of the hill, so anyone elses maybe wrong.

Its a sad world we live in these days friends when people can't even look past what country you come from to talk to you.

sangai

Sat, 04-10-2004, 08:34 PM

id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

the U.S is doing this to make the world safe from terrorism and if it means getting some tyrants out of the way in the process im all for it.

Mut

Sat, 04-10-2004, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by: sangai sakusei
id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

the U.S is doing this to make the world safe from terrorism and if it means getting some tyrants out of the way in the process im all for it.

WORD.

Knives122

Sat, 04-10-2004, 11:23 PM

G.W.B doesnt know what hes doing he did all of this b/c he had to find a way to get people to stop making fun of him for all the stupid things he did

Sat, 04-10-2004, 11:45 PM

Well, the US isn't dumb. Thats why we are at war with Iraq. If the US was dumb, then we would be at war with N. Korea or Iran, who both have ADMITTED to having Nuclear Weapons programs. But the US isn't dumb, they know not to mess with those guys, even though we would win, but no one wants nuclear war. So we put down the small guys, like Sadaam, who if he got his hands on a weapon of mass destruction theres no doubt in my mind the guy would have enough balls to point it at the US. I know you guys from other countires might not want to hear this but the truth is the US is the only military superpower at this time, and since the US is the ONLY superpower than we can do we whatever we want. I know its not right to say, but thats the truth, and thats why we have countries like Canada, the UK, and Poland suckin up to us, because they arent dumb either. Yes the goverment is lying, and they always have, but its gotten the US this far, so it must work.

r3n

Sun, 04-11-2004, 05:22 AM

i would never generalise about a country of 260million people (roughly?) to say that theyre all greedy bastards etc. but i will generalise about the media and government of america to say they are fucked up. or it could jst be that the media believes the governments lies or it may be dangerous for them to publish anything but those lies. ahwell either way, george bush and his gooneys are gunna burn in hell i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif not that i believe in heaven and hell i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

http://jtownend.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/asshole.jpeg

Sun, 04-11-2004, 07:34 AM

LOL now thats a fucked up comparison, I dont like George Bush either, but to compare him to Hitler is outrageous. Well it doesnt matter Bush wont be pres. much longer. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Xollence

Sun, 04-11-2004, 12:10 PM

I doubt Bush is the one making all these decisions. And I agree, Bush is not the same as Hitler.

r3n

Sun, 04-11-2004, 12:39 PM

id say the american government is as evil as the nazis were. they sold weapons to the iraqis as allies WHILE all this genocide stuff was happening in iraq, and now they call them their enemies for the single reason which is oil. theyve killed thousands of INNOCENT ppl purely for oil. notice how america hasnt even touched zimbabwe, where the president ordered the killing of hundreds of white farmers. not only this but he frequently arrests or kills opposition parties to his presidential position. ie. a dictator. but does america do anything about this? even though, i would say, it is almost exactly the same situation as iraq. and why doesnt america do anything about this? because its of no benefit to them.

you dont seriously think the american government is hunting so called "terrorists" for the safety of innocent ppl around the world do you? the american government couldnt care less about innocent ppl, why do you think it let 9/11 happen in the first place? so that it had a strong reason to invade the middle east, and why is it doing this? for oil.

the american goverment has no morals. it will order the killing of innocents purely to secure oil reserves. its as evil as evil gets, jst that it uses the media to disguise this fact. the sooner more ppl realise this truth the better.

sangai

Sun, 04-11-2004, 12:55 PM

hey folks we got a democrat. boy that sounds like a conspiracy theory.

the war is not about oil. its just a bonus

we do not invade africa cause we do not have there support, most of the arabic and muselim countrys support our actions. africa the entire country would be pissed if we intervened.

i plan on voting for bush.

and the comparison between hitler and bush much different.

hitler: a racist bastard who believed ethnic cleansing was the only way to become a master race, not only that it was believed he suffered from extreme paronoia, fece's fetishes and a numerous other mental problems.

bush: a cowboy from american that thinks he is doing the right thing by hunting out a very small "dangerous" dangerous group of people, there is a difference between jewish and terrorist's the jewish didn't deserve it.

itachi_

Sun, 04-11-2004, 01:22 PM

I think it would be better if they pulled back all troups so the iraqi-people can kill themself, leave them alone, it's their country, they don't have WOMD, so they can't harm other countries....

sangai

Sun, 04-11-2004, 01:43 PM

true by june 30th all us power is supposed to turn the country over to the iraqi authority, hopefully they can handle things there.

Mut

Sun, 04-11-2004, 01:47 PM

i'm not into politics nor do i care about bush or hitler, but comparing hitler to bush is just absolutely retarded. anyone who thinks it's right to make that dumb comparison, should burn their faces off and then just die off.

Assertn

Sun, 04-11-2004, 02:06 PM

the terrorists are hiding out over in those countries.....and if i recall the leaders werent willing to do anything about it, so if nobody did anything then we'd all just be sitting around while they go hijack planes and kill civilians anyway. Even without war there'll still be deaths

im really not a big fan of politics anyway, and im not sure if gore wouldve been any better than bush as president either.....meh...blame the electoral college

Sun, 04-11-2004, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by: r3n
id say the american government is as evil as the nazis were. they sold weapons to the iraqis as allies WHILE all this genocide stuff was happening in iraq, and now they call them their enemies for the single reason which is oil. theyve killed thousands of INNOCENT ppl purely for oil. notice how america hasnt even touched zimbabwe, where the president ordered the killing of hundreds of white farmers. not only this but he frequently arrests or kills opposition parties to his presidential position. ie. a dictator. but does america do anything about this? even though, i would say, it is almost exactly the same situation as iraq. and why doesnt america do anything about this? because its of no benefit to them.

you dont seriously think the american government is hunting so called "terrorists" for the safety of innocent ppl around the world do you? the american government couldnt care less about innocent ppl, why do you think it let 9/11 happen in the first place? so that it had a strong reason to invade the middle east, and why is it doing this? for oil.

the american goverment has no morals. it will order the killing of innocents purely to secure oil reserves. its as evil as evil gets, jst that it uses the media to disguise this fact. the sooner more ppl realise this truth the better.

Wow, hmmm. So, what country are you from? Is your country doing anything to help Zimbabwe? I didnt think so. If you think that the US government in place right now...and NO not EVERY administration is the same and runs the country in the same way, is as bad as the Nazis then you need to check your facts.
Hitler murdered over 2 million innocent Jews and also killed Poles, Gypsies etc. Look at the American government, who are at WAR with Iraq. There has always been casualties in war, which people need to accept. If you actually believe that ALL the civilians who have been killed were innocent then you need to look at what is going on in Iraq right now, CIVILIANS, followeres of the Shiite cleric, killing American CIVILIANS and soldiers. This war is not about oil, thats a stupid misconception since the US gets almost all of its oil from Venezuela and other South American countries. The US is going to do what it needs to do to help itself. That is human nature, who are you going to help first, yourself or a stranger? By going to war with Iraq we would, ideally, put in place a US backed democratic goverment, which would be another ally in the middle east. Not every country is perfect, and countries will do what it needs to do that will help themselves in the long run.

Assertn

Sun, 04-11-2004, 05:19 PM

whoa geez...as evil as the nazis were??.....wow.....

well....everyone's interpretations of good and evil is based on the society they were raised in.....so if you wanna come up with self-centered accusations like that then go ahead.....but i know of a friend of mine who returned home from the army just a few weeks ago from iraq.....his job was to take care of civilian affairs, and luckily was never in a situation where he needed to shoot at someone.......America's not trying to persecute people....just help them....its the moronic iraq nationalists who blindly support a corrupt government that stir things up. Their perception of good and evil is vastly different than what most democratic societies believe in, just as your perception seems to be a bit more distorted than what most people who know what they're talking about is i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

not that im someone who normally knows what im talking in international affairs, but I do have a good idea of what was happening in iraq when my friend was there

Lego

Sun, 04-11-2004, 09:44 PM

Can i be a hentai nazi?

Comparing the people in the united states, all of us to the nazi regime is a little harsh. Bush's comparison can be iffy.

But calling all of america's people nazi's ? Can i have a hit of what your on? The Nazi's killed around 6 million or more jewish people, including women and children. I don't think the figures in iraq or anywher else aren't that extreme with that amount of predjudice.

Hell, france is baning all religous embloyms, head scarfs,large crosses, yamichas(don't kill me , forget what jewish people call them) from schools, do we hear about that, nope?

Taiwan is in a election crisis, BIG TIME. Do we hear about this? Nopers

China has soooooo many human rights violations.. not to mention a little thing called SARS. Do we hear about that? Nopers

Russia has chechen rebels. Hell, they killed off their own people trying to liberate a theater a year or so back. Do we hear about this? Nope

Germany? pfft. I fail to listen to someone over the age of 40 from germany who is bitching and moaning about "human rights violations that the us commits all over the world". Come on germany, remeber a little thing called the holocaust?

Theres some much backhanded shit going on around the world, you'd be suprised at whos dealing with who.

Hell, even in the UN, where everyone wanted more inspections, theres a HUUUUUGE oil for food scandal. Where buissness men,politicians from different countries got kickbacks from saddam for oil and etc. We hardly hear about that.

To sum it up, im not defending everything the country i live in does. Hell, i don't even agree with all of my governments decisions. What i do hate are generalizations. Thats like me saying, well everyone in france smells like rotten pigs.

Its the "hip" thing to do these days around the world, to jump in and bash Bush and the United States. If another country went into war like we did, we would be bashing them to. Its just a outlet for a lot of agression and frustration.

Hell, ever think who organizes the anti-US , anti-bush, anti-war protestors? Go take a look at whos heading these "Rallies".

Like i said before, im neither pro war or anti war. Im in the middle, i agree with seom stuff, disagree with others.

I just hate generalizations.

Assertn

Sun, 04-11-2004, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by: Lego
Germany? pfft. I fail to listen to someone over the age of 40 from germany who is bitching and moaning about "human rights violations that the us commits all over the world". Come on germany, remeber a little thing called the holocaust?

i agree with you for the most part...but i'd have to argue that line
alot of people who supported hitler, including alot of the soldiers, did so out of fear of being executed for treason....not because they willingly supported his ideals

Lego

Sun, 04-11-2004, 10:05 PM

alot of people who supported hitler, including alot of the soldiers, did so out of fear of being executed for treason....not because they willingly supported his ideals

Yeh, i remebe reading about that. Better to do what your told sometimes then face death or the consiquences.

The point im trying to make tough, is that everyone, soon as they find out im from the US, tries to down me saying you kill civilians blarghy blarghy.

When i find out there from germany, a african nation, or something to that degree, i laugh at them.

Everyones hands are dirty in something over the past couple years, well maybe except switzerland and their nuetrality.

Xollence

Mon, 04-12-2004, 12:47 AM

Lego, don't you mean the people over 60 years old? 40 year olds weren't even alive during World War 2.

Lego

Mon, 04-12-2004, 01:12 AM

Yeh, it was one of those heat of the moment rants where everything comes to you i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

r3n

Mon, 04-12-2004, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-

Originally posted by: r3n
id say the american government is as evil as the nazis were. they sold weapons to the iraqis as allies WHILE all this genocide stuff was happening in iraq, and now they call them their enemies for the single reason which is oil. theyve killed thousands of INNOCENT ppl purely for oil. notice how america hasnt even touched zimbabwe, where the president ordered the killing of hundreds of white farmers. not only this but he frequently arrests or kills opposition parties to his presidential position. ie. a dictator. but does america do anything about this? even though, i would say, it is almost exactly the same situation as iraq. and why doesnt america do anything about this? because its of no benefit to them.

you dont seriously think the american government is hunting so called "terrorists" for the safety of innocent ppl around the world do you? the american government couldnt care less about innocent ppl, why do you think it let 9/11 happen in the first place? so that it had a strong reason to invade the middle east, and why is it doing this? for oil.

the american goverment has no morals. it will order the killing of innocents purely to secure oil reserves. its as evil as evil gets, jst that it uses the media to disguise this fact. the sooner more ppl realise this truth the better.

Wow, hmmm. So, what country are you from? Is your country doing anything to help Zimbabwe? I didnt think so. If you think that the US government in place right now...and NO not EVERY administration is the same and runs the country in the same way, is as bad as the Nazis then you need to check your facts.
Hitler murdered over 2 million innocent Jews and also killed Poles, Gypsies etc. Look at the American government, who are at WAR with Iraq. There has always been casualties in war, which people need to accept. If you actually believe that ALL the civilians who have been killed were innocent then you need to look at what is going on in Iraq right now, CIVILIANS, followeres of the Shiite cleric, killing American CIVILIANS and soldiers. This war is not about oil, thats a stupid misconception since the US gets almost all of its oil from Venezuela and other South American countries. The US is going to do what it needs to do to help itself. That is human nature, who are you going to help first, yourself or a stranger? By going to war with Iraq we would, ideally, put in place a US backed democratic goverment, which would be another ally in the middle east. Not every country is perfect, and countries will do what it needs to do that will help themselves in the long run.

eugh im not saying bush is following what hitler did in anyway, jst saying hes evil. which he is. its jst a photo i found, i didnt make it myself. im from the UK and my government jst as useless, when it comes to making their own decisions, they jst follow america like a lapdog, not that the population is too happy about it. and lego when ever i said "america" i dont mean the american people, i jst mean the government, im too lazy to type out the full thing. trust me i dont think many of the american population are as fucked as their government (atleast i hope not). and lego, dont go comparing the modern day germans to the nazis, they have nothing to do with them, and germany has 1 of the largest ethnic populations in europe - go figure.

sangai when u say support in arabic and muselim countries you were joking right?

Swallow Your Soul

Mon, 04-12-2004, 09:03 AM

id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

Iraq have no links to terrorism at all. There is a huge difference between a tyrant of his own country and a terrorist. Also, Iraq never made an act of war against America. America did.

I gotta say I agree with r3n.

Someone made a comment before about 'whether we like it or not, America is the big super power who can pretty much do what they want' - that is EXACTLY what I'm afraid of...I don't see why they should be able to impose their beliefs on other countries - when the other country didn't do against them...

It is a fact that Iraq did not have, and showed no signs of making any kind of weapons to threaten the west, yes Saddam was a tyrant and did absolutely unspeakable things to his own people, but he knew better than to attack America...and there was no evidence to suggest Iraq could have been plotting anything in terms of attacking America.

A pre-emptive war is totally unjustifiable - you need concrete proof (or at least you are MEANT to have concrete proof) to go to war, the fact America and their bitch (by bitch I refer to my own snivelling country) went to war without offering a solid reason (their reasons also changed many times - they could not get their story straight because it quickly became apparent that there were no WMD in Iraq so they started talking about the the humanity etc). The 'evidence' given by both the UK and the US is so badly edited to suit their purposes of justifying the war that it borders on propaganda rather than evidence The fact that the major superpower is carrying out actions like this is very scary indeed...cross America and get battered...that seems to be the message coming across...

I find it depressing that no-one would ever vote for the Lib Dems over here in Britain...everyone just votes for the Conservatives (right wing) or the Labour Party (currently in power - supposedly left wing but have practically become right wing). I also find it sickening that Blair keeps narrowly getting out of trouble on a lot of his policies (his policies on education are just appalling, though thats another matter).

I also find it very scary that recently one of the major people in the US government said that if someone doesn't comply with the USA Patriot Act then they are not a patriot of their country, even going so far as to call them a 'domestic terrorist' - that is going directly against whatever Amendment it is in your constitution which allows you the right to free speech - as this person (I forget his name) said public debate on the USA Patriot Act is simply not allowed...a lot of people don't even know about this act - I find it terrifying that such a basic right is being denied to the people...whether you agree with the war or not surely people should agree that free speech is something that everyone (no matter on how much you dislike their views) has the right to.

This quote is taken from the 'EEF Analysis of the USA Patriot Act "One new definition of terrorism and three expansions of previous terms also expand the scope of surveillance. They are 1) § 802 definition of "domestic terrorism" (amending 18 USC §2331), which raises concerns about legitimate protest activity resulting in conviction on terrorism charges" - that is basically pointing out that people who are protesting legally can be arrested on suspicion of being terrorists!! How can that be justified? If you want to read any more of the quite worrying stuff this act entails then Click Here (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html)

r3n

Mon, 04-12-2004, 11:01 AM

i agree, the american government is cracking down on freedom of speach, id be worried if i lived there.

itachi_

Mon, 04-12-2004, 01:12 PM

The best thing to do.... US should not care about other countries problems, acting like the world-protector, man don't give a damn, that's what I would've done...

JusDaMan

Mon, 04-12-2004, 01:16 PM

THis is out of subject and all but...
From wat i know studying world history...
Hitler is famous for world war 2 and stuff thats y alot of ppl consider him mad evil... but From wat i read before.. this other guy named mao zak dong or something from china. He made hitler look like a kid. that Guy was like "wat boi? u saying i suk?" then see ya in the next life.

I BLAME BUSH FOR THE DOWNFALL OF EVERYTHING!
ALL HAIL CLINTON
ALL HAIL THAT VIETNAM WAR GUY WHOS RUNNING RITE NOW

Mon, 04-12-2004, 01:16 PM

That's the whole point, you don't live here, and you don't know how things are here. As far as you can tell the Bush adminstration is not taking away any of our freedom of speech rights, just because they said it doesnt means its enforced. The way I see it is, the goverment can spy on people as much as they want to ensure safety, and if you dont even know about it, then who cares? 9/11 didnt happen in your country, which is probably why you can have the views you have. My cousins live in Brooklyn, and my aunt's friend was killed in the World Trade Center. Sadaam was a terrorist, and he also applauded Bin Laden for the terror attacks on 9/11. The way I look at it, allowing Sadaam to stay in power means another enemy in the middle east, who wields a lot of power by the fact that he ruled an oil rich country. He killed any who would oppose him, and kept his people poor and in fear of their leader. If your the US why not take out the enemy who got away last time? The US has never been on good terms with Iraq, and by invading Iraq you get oil, a new democratic US backed goverment, and an ally in the middle east. Yes the US is doing this for itself, but by doing this theyre also helping the people in Iraq, while gaining more power in the middle east. I see nothing wrong with extending your world power, especially when your the strongest country in the world.

itachi_

Mon, 04-12-2004, 02:03 PM

Comon, he just want to finnish his dad's work

SamuraiOdin

Mon, 04-12-2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
That's the whole point, you don't live here, and you don't know how things are here. As far as you can tell the Bush adminstration is not taking away any of our freedom of speech rights, just because they said it doesnt means its enforced. The way I see it is, the goverment can spy on people as much as they want to ensure safety, and if you dont even know about it, then who cares? 9/11 didnt happen in your country, which is probably why you can have the views you have. My cousins live in Brooklyn, and my aunt's friend was killed in the World Trade Center. Sadaam was a terrorist, and he also applauded Bin Laden for the terror attacks on 9/11. The way I look at it, allowing Sadaam to stay in power means another enemy in the middle east, who wields a lot of power by the fact that he ruled an oil rich country. He killed any who would oppose him, and kept his people poor and in fear of their leader. If your the US why not take out the enemy who got away last time? The US has never been on good terms with Iraq, and by invading Iraq you get oil, a new democratic US backed goverment, and an ally in the middle east. Yes the US is doing this for itself, but by doing this theyre also helping the people in Iraq, while gaining more power in the middle east. I see nothing wrong with extending your world power, especially when your the strongest country in the world.

I agree with the above. I mean look, if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the government looks in on you from time to time? By weakening the middle-east, we strengthen ourselves, and in the long run that is what everyone is trying to do.

Lego

Mon, 04-12-2004, 06:08 PM

The best thing to do.... US should not care about other countries problems, acting like the world-protector, man don't give a damn, that's what I would've done...

See, thats the beauty of world opinion itachi. If we stayed out of all the worlds problems, being one of the biggest military forces , people would still bitch. Hell, we didn't step in in haiti or that one african nation, i currently forget the name of that country, and people bitched for us to do so.

We don't give a dam, world goes to shit.

Assertn

Mon, 04-12-2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul
[quote]
It is a fact that Iraq did not have, and showed no signs of making any kind of weapons to threaten the west, yes Saddam was a tyrant and did absolutely unspeakable things to his own people, but he knew better than to attack America...and there was no evidence to suggest Iraq could have been plotting anything in terms of attacking America.

this argument in itself suggests that he wasnt plotting anything against america because he wasnt strong enough to. now....like communism back in the day, countries CAN expand their power and alliances....and they CAN become stronger because of it. If everybody waited until someone became a huge powerful threat, then it would be bad for all of us

r3n, where does freedom of speech come into play? people have anti-bush ads and stuff just the same as that picture you posted......so i find that not only is that irrelevent, but also inaccurate

Mut

Mon, 04-12-2004, 06:15 PM

the us isn't doing anything wrong. we have to act like the daddy of all countries or everything is gonna go to shit. and besides, if we don't keep people in check, everyone will start going ape shit, hurting the us economically. which sucks.

Lego

Mon, 04-12-2004, 06:18 PM

I don't really meddle into politics to much, considering it brings up lengthy debates and such. I consider myself a moderate democrat.

Ive come to realization that no matter what i do, short of blowing myself up inside the white house(yeh , like im gonna do that pfft) that protesting,bitching does nothing.

Hell, i could go stand on the street corner going , OMFG USA AR NAZI! , and no one would care, just honk at me and shout profanity.

What i do feel strongly about, as ive stated before are generalizations. We didn't vote for war, we wern't consulted in this war.

So stop bitching and complaining that the american people are nazi's,war mongers, and blah blah blah.

Instead of focusing so much on us and our buissness, why not go help out Kosovo, after the clashes that have hapened there in the past few months.

Swallow Your Soul

Mon, 04-12-2004, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by: Lego
I don't really meddle into politics to much, considering it brings up lengthy debates and such. I consider myself a moderate democrat.

Ive come to realization that no matter what i do, short of blowing myself up inside the white house(yeh , like im gonna do that pfft) that protesting,bitching does nothing.

Hell, i could go stand on the street corner going , OMFG USA AR NAZI! , and no one would care, just honk at me and shout profanity.

What i do feel strongly about, as ive stated before are generalizations. We didn't vote for war, we wern't consulted in this war.

So stop bitching and complaining that the american people are nazi's,war mongers, and blah blah blah.

Instead of focusing so much on us and our buissness, why not go help out Kosovo, after the clashes that have hapened there in the past few months.

Lego this is a tired argument - you made your point about generalisations twice (at least) and no-one is doing that anymore so be happy i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif...

(just to point out thats the end of the reply to lego)

The freedom of speech argument is valid r3n pointed out is true because the USA Patriot Act (which I posted a link for) says people can be arrested, prosecuted and convicted of terrorism for a mere protest! That is a denial of freedom, and an aspect of totalitarianism. Also, please examine the section on the link I provided which shows the act also involves laws that don't seem to have anything to do with terrorism.

SADDAM IS NOT A TERRORIST! I don't know whether he applauded Bin Laden or not, but Bin Laden hated, and I really do mean HATED Saddam...he went on record several times declaring Saddam his enemy. Also, like I keep saying - a pre-emptive war can not be justified...saying 'before long this might happen' is an appalling and paranoid way of looking at something...why not just bomb the fuck out of everyone then they'll do exactly what the government says?

What makes some people here think that the US government can just push everyone around and make everyone kowtow to their judgement? Iraq posed no threat to America at the time, and there was no evidence to suggest they ever would.

Finally, please stop linking 9/11 to Saddam Hussein - he had nothing to do with it - Bin Laden is responsible like that, so America has every right to get him...I'm very sorry that someone's relative had an aunt killed in 9/11, but that doesn't lend any strength to the argument justifying a war because of 9/11 because that was a completely different situation...your government manipulated 9/11 as an excuse to fill it's people full of fear and to assert more control over the population, and also to invade Iraq. I know 9/11 didn't happen in my country...but that doesn't have anything to do with the war with Iraq.

And yes, protest does have little effect, but its the only thing that can be done in the meantime and it shows people that people oppose it, I just hope when voting time comes more people vote for a better candidate than Bush.

Mut@t@ - the very idea that you are saying America has to keep everyone else in check is very frightening...the fact that America has more power than everyone else does NOT mean they should govern what goes on around the world - do you really believe America is above everyone else just because they have more power?

Mut

Mon, 04-12-2004, 07:43 PM

well shit. if everyone kept them selves in check we wouldn't be needed to do this. you're right the fact that we have more power than everyone doesn't mean that we should govern what goes on in the world. but if we don't, everything will go ape shit and when everything goes ape shit, it eventually hurts us. so we are protecting ourselves and everyone else at the same time. and i never said america is above everyone just cuz we have more power. we use our power in good ways. saddam needed to be taken out so he got taken out. done deal.

i don't wanna talk about this anymore, i hate politics. believe what you want and i will too, but too bad not matter what you or i say won't make a damn difference.

Vagabond

Mon, 04-12-2004, 07:44 PM

nevermind

Lego

Mon, 04-12-2004, 07:48 PM

Heres something to lighten the conversation

http://obsolete.servehttp.com/fark/saddam_pancake.jpg

r3n

Mon, 04-12-2004, 07:49 PM

agree, agree, and more agree. everything swallow ur soul said is pretty much what i feel. america have this opinion that because they can exert the greatest power in the world they can bully other countries, and act like the judge and jury of the rest of the world. america seems to think it is above its own restrictions it sets down on other countries, such as limiting of nuclear arms (yes america has the largest stock of nuclear arms on the planet). nobody gave america this right, it simply took it on itself. even when NATO objected to america invading iraq, and as i seem to remember, it also pointed out to america that the invasion of iraq was illegal on several counts, primarily because it has no PROOF that iraq had any involvement with 9/11, or no proof that iraq could attack any of america or its allies with WMD. (i wonder how many countries could attack america with the cause that "america could attack it with WMD"....mmm let me think....all of them?)

and when ppl start saying how a friend or relative died in 9/11 out of the couple of thousand of ppl that were killed that day. they seem to forget the hundreds of thousands (no thats not a typo) of innocents that have come in the crossfire of americas so called war on terrorism, along with previous attacks on more than 20 countries which were unprovoked attacks. jst because these ppl arent american citizens doesnt make their lives any less valueble.

and you wonder why so many terrorists attack america. remember, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Mon, 04-12-2004, 09:37 PM

well this is going to be my last post here, as i said before since you arent american i dont think you can understand. the fact that people are sypathizing with those who are killing coalition forces right now baffles me. i'm sorry your anti-america, and believe americans are as bad as nazis, but ill speak the truth now as i did before. i just think its jealousy, its as simple as that. i know you dont want to but accept the fact that america can do whatever the hell it wants until there is a country that can match them. the us went against the UN, which is basically the world, to go to war against iraq and what did they do about it? nothing. why? because they cant.

Assertn

Mon, 04-12-2004, 10:21 PM

if you think about it, wouldnt it be best for everyone to have a unified system of government anyway? there wouldnt be political differences, there could easily be a worldwide market system.....and so forth.....the way things stand now there are conflicts going on all the time among the smaller countries. If iraq was democratic, then the US would do whatever it could to help their economy boom and make everyone there better off, just as we did for alot of the european countries after WW's (and we offered tons of money for those european countries to rebuild the cities and everything that was destroyed, and we didnt even expect them to pay that back either)

there are lots of iraqi civilians who hated the way things were there, some of you who are saying that trying to liberate them is bad is just the conclusion you made as you comfortably sit in your nice couch watching the US changing the lives of those people and probably assuming that everyone's quality of life is as good as yours and that nobody needs change. To say that they should have to put up with the government that saddam ruled just he's not bothering anybody outside of iraq is almost selfish.

JusDaMan

Mon, 04-12-2004, 10:36 PM

My suggestion would be celerbety death match for real. even though Im gonna get flamed for this... I would just wanna watch people duke it out in the ring. they have a dispute, just go to a death match. Its better to kill 1 person than 10000000000 people =). and i wanna see saddam or osama fight bush Lol thats another reason

Mut

Mon, 04-12-2004, 10:37 PM

r3n

Tue, 04-13-2004, 05:59 AM

eugh, sharingankakashi, its people like you that sicken me. you're an american that condones the fact that america kills innocents jst to expand its power influence. and ill tell you a country that could quite easily destroy america, which is china. has the largest army in the world, by far aswell as a large nuclear arsenal, america wouldnt dare attack them, cos it would be suicide. im jst waiting for when america get their foreign policy shoved down their throat by china.

assertnfailure, plz dont talk about WW2 like its the europeans who were indebted to the americans. if our countries hadnt lost millions of lives to stop the nazis in both WWs, america would have almost certainly been invaded by now. and if i remember correctly, in WW2 america didnt even want to join the war cos it would be too expensive or some bs. so you can see how much they value their allies (i have no idea why the UK even sides with the US, shud jst stick with europe).

and yes jusdaman i actually agree. if all wars were solved like that it would be a lot less hassle. all osama wud need was a couple of pretzles...

Lego

Tue, 04-13-2004, 08:01 AM

Koyuki

Tue, 04-13-2004, 08:18 AM

It don't support US, but Saddam is plain evil. Just watch South park. Saddam did a "Mussolini". And compairing Bush and US to the natzis is just wrong.
Most of the natzis, was just plain germans who wanted a better life. So they joined the natzis and got food.

Man can't they help other countries insteed of killing people. It's the people of US who's paying for the war.

Swallow Your Soul

Tue, 04-13-2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
well this is going to be my last post here, as i said before since you arent american i dont think you can understand. the fact that people are sypathizing with those who are killing coalition forces right now baffles me. i'm sorry your anti-america, and believe americans are as bad as nazis, but ill speak the truth now as i did before. i just think its jealousy, its as simple as that. i know you dont want to but accept the fact that america can do whatever the hell it wants until there is a country that can match them. the us went against the UN, which is basically the world, to go to war against iraq and what did they do about it? nothing. why? because they cant.

Yeah I'm gonna stop posting unless there is something specific I have to say (in case I have to reply to something basically). I just want to make a couple of last points in response to this post

Point 1) I don't understand how not living in America has that much to do with whether I can comment on this war or not. Iraq didn't carry out any attack on America in order to start this war so why should an American understand any more than anyone else?

Point 2) I'm not anti-america, I don't like the actions of your government...that is not being anti-america

Point 3) I'm not sympathising with those who are killing coalition forces. I am against the war - that is a completely different thing.

Point 4) I don't believe americans are as bad as the nazi's, but I understand the point the people who made that sign are putting across. The American government is basically making a statement that 'cross america and get invaded', and also brought in a law silencing whoever in their own country wants to publicly disagree with this war.

Point 5) Despite the fact you say I can't accept the fact America can do anything they want - I can! And I have! I am in denial of nothing because that is exactly what I have been saying - IT TERRIFIES ME THAT AMERICA CAN DO PRETTY MUCH WHATEVER WHAT THEY WANT!!!

Point 6) I'm not jealous about anything, if Britain started throwing it's weight around (if it had as much weight to throw around as America that is) then I'd be just as much against our government than I am right now against America's government - I've said numerous times that I totally disagree with our current government on various issues, one of which is the war on Iraq, others involving education etc.

Point 7) The fact that the UN can do nothing about it is exactly what scares me...just because America are free to do what they please because no-one can oppose them doesn't mean they are right in doing whatever the hell they want to do. A bully isn't justified on picking on victims just because s/he is bigger and stronger than them.

EDIT - yeah I know I said I had a couple of last points when in fact it turned out to be seven, but there turned out to be more things I had to point out than I anticipated...

Tue, 04-13-2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by: r3n
eugh, sharingankakashi, its people like you that sicken me. you're an american that condones the fact that america kills innocents jst to expand its power influence. and ill tell you a country that could quite easily destroy america, which is china. has the largest army in the world, by far aswell as a large nuclear arsenal, america wouldnt dare attack them, cos it would be suicide. im jst waiting for when america get their foreign policy shoved down their throat by china.

assertnfailure, plz dont talk about WW2 like its the europeans who were indebted to the americans. if our countries hadnt lost millions of lives to stop the nazis in both WWs, america would have almost certainly been invaded by now. and if i remember correctly, in WW2 america didnt even want to join the war cos it would be too expensive or some bs. so you can see how much they value their allies (i have no idea why the UK even sides with the US, shud jst stick with europe).

and yes jusdaman i actually agree. if all wars were solved like that it would be a lot less hassle. all osama wud need was a couple of pretzles...

Well I know I said last post before but this one made me have to respond. I do NOT condone the killing of innocent people, but when there is war people other than soldiers will get killed, and that just shows how ugly war really is. At this point I believe war was neccesary instead of allowing a psychotic tyrant to continue to rule an oil rich country. Like someone earlier said as a world superpower you need to keep the potentially powerful enemies down before they become a much greater problem.

No I dont think China could defeat the US. Just because they have the most men doesnt mean they would win in a war. America's true power is in their technology, military technology is usually atleast 10 years ahead of the technology we know/use now. The weapons we see are the ones that will easiest get the job done, but it doesnt mean its their most powerful. I also remember the giant China being defeated by a country smaller than the US, Japan, who they have been defeated by many times throughout history, most recently WWII. If a war with China was ever going to happen the US would know well before hand, allowing them to re-instate the draft and swelling their forces.

About your WWII statements, that one made me chuckle. Where would the UK be if the US hadnt entered WWII? Oh yeah thats right invaded by the Nazis, and inevitably the US would have had to enter WWII to bail out you Europeans who are so soft now compared to your former 'greatness.' Yes it is true the US was making a lot of money off WWII. So what? The US was supposed to stay out of European problems and Europe is supposed to stay out of problems in the Americas. But, Europe couldent defeat Germany so we had to save you. Not to mention help countries rebuild after the war.

JusDaMan

Tue, 04-13-2004, 04:26 PM

=) China's military is on par with americas. not alot of people believe that because we rarely hear crap about wat china is doing.. the latest news is SARS which happened like a year ago.. (besides the 7 china man going to iraq). Reason why back then china lost to japan. industrial revolution, Japanese modernized with western ways and wooped alot of ass. china was still using old school renasance cannons when japan was using Like tanks and crap. Man japan even wooped russia around that time too.
When japan bombed pearl harbor america didn't go in with that much force cause japan was a "rebel", they were born to fight. american woulda won eventually but the sacarfice was too great. that's y america did a 2 hiroshima's.

SamuraiOdin

Tue, 04-13-2004, 05:44 PM

Who are China's big allies though? We have most of the powerful nations siding with us, and in some cases *i.e. North Korea's Nukes* China even sides with us. China is not a problem simply because if one of us attacked the other, it would incite World War 3, and no one is willing to do that. So while two super powers balance each other out, it in no way stops the US from doing what it needs to.

r3n

Tue, 04-13-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
[quote]
Originally posted by: r3n
About your WWII statements, that one made me chuckle. Where would the UK be if the US hadnt entered WWII? Oh yeah thats right invaded by the Nazis, and inevitably the US would have had to enter WWII to bail out you Europeans who are so soft now compared to your former 'greatness.' Yes it is true the US was making a lot of money off WWII. So what? The US was supposed to stay out of European problems and Europe is supposed to stay out of problems in the Americas. But, Europe couldent defeat Germany so we had to save you. Not to mention help countries rebuild after the war.

so you think that if you hadnt helped the rest of europe + russia fight against the nazis, you would have still been A OK today? bullshit. without europe fighting the nazis to begin with america would have been crushed in under 10 years. europe was the one that lost the lives in the war. not america. you wanna be at the forefront of a war? by all means, we'll pay for your funeral, and rebuild ur house too.

ive had enuf of arguing about this topic neway. im not gunna change my opinion becos of what you say, and ur obviously not gunna change ur opinion no matter what i say. so im jst gunna agree to disagree, go love ur government and all the lovely things theyre gunna do for the world.

Vagabond

Tue, 04-13-2004, 08:50 PM

You're giving the US too much credit.
As far as im concerned if it weren't for the russians the US and the rest of the world would've been screwed.

Lego

Tue, 04-13-2004, 08:59 PM

I would love to see any country, do something about the violence in Africa. The congo and etc instead of iraq,north korea and etc.

It seems africa gets looked over the most.

iMUSTbeTHEdevil

Wed, 04-14-2004, 01:44 AM

Do I think war is the answer? No!
War is actually the question....YES! is the answer.

You are all foolish to think that your voices actually matter.
Things are happening right now that you will never ever
know about and probably never understand. But to sit
at home and bitch about the things that are going on in
this world and continue to sit without action leads me to
believe more in my state of opinion which is...fuck it!

i/expressions/devil.gif

Assertn

Wed, 04-14-2004, 01:50 AM

i believe it was the US that turned the tides of WWII when we got involved.....good thing the bully nation of the world decided to get involed THAT time, eh? we didnt OWE it to the european nations to pay for their damages, but we helped out anyway cause thats what we do for our friendly nations....

our success benefits all democratic countries, so quit bein a tree hugging hippie r3n

Wed, 04-14-2004, 01:51 PM

Mut

Wed, 04-14-2004, 03:49 PM

Swallow Your Soul

Wed, 04-14-2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
i believe it was the US that turned the tides of WWII when we got involved.....good thing the bully nation of the world decided to get involed THAT time, eh? we didnt OWE it to the european nations to pay for their damages, but we helped out anyway cause thats what we do for our friendly nations....

Yes America did turn the tides of WWII when we were at our lowest...and helped considerably afterwards - and it is appreciated.. From what little I've heard about WWII (history class at school being about 5 or 6 years ago) America didn't want to fully get into war as the American public did not want them to do anything about it, then Pearl Harbour happened and then America got involved...either way, whatever happened it was very good for the allies that America came in towards the end.

Past doesn't justify present though, helping us out back then doesn't justify doing something wrong in the present (whether you think this war is wrong or not is irrelevent - I'm just making the point).

As I've said, past doesn't justify present, so stop making stereotypical generalisations about people who happen to disagree with you. Calling people who are anti-war tree hugging hippies is just as bad as calling the American Government a bunch of Nazis...both accusations are considerably over-exaggerated.

JusDaMan

Wed, 04-14-2004, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by: Lego
I would love to see any country, do something about the violence in Africa. The congo and etc instead of iraq,north korea and etc.

It seems africa gets looked over the most.

Aite let me ask u.. Since when did australia EVER in human race get attacked. Same question for antartica (im sure theres atleast 100 people living there)

Stoopider

Thu, 04-15-2004, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by: JusDaMan

Aite let me ask u.. Since when did australia EVER in human race get attacked. Same question for antartica (im sure theres atleast 100 people living there)

I think Australia were getting attacked by the Japanese. But I dont think they ever invaded.
I know this because I saw a documentary about Japanese zero fighters crashing all over the Northern parts of Australia. Something like that lah.

But it wasn't a full blown Invasion. I'm no History buff, but I suspected during that time, Japanese doods were too far stretched and/or was roaming around Indonesia and/or protecting the Philliipines because during that time, US was retaliating.

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-16-2004, 05:29 PM

Several things I'd like to point out ..

1st, I think the US gets too involved with world affairs, and I wish our govt would worry about serious domestic problems before picking fights with tin-can dictators like Saddam. Alas, we are already involved, I hope the situation improves. Very difficult to stabalize a country where different factions are so hateful of each other that they use murder and violence as their first options. Sadly, the only stable solution seems to be a brutal regime that keeps people in check, like Saddam's. Which brings me to the question .. if that's the best we can hope for, why did we bother? WMD? Terrorist funding? Nah, it's probably just an issue of $. Sad.

2nd, on the China military issue.. China would have been extremely dangerous if they had advanced convential weapons and training in a pre-nuclear world. The fact unfortunately remains, however, that we are in the age of the H-bomb, and that basically nullifies the advantage of huge numbers of troops (just more bodies to fry). So what we are left with is the comparison of arsenals. China's ICBMs are slow, and carry a maximum of 1 5MT warhead at a range of around 13,000km .. and that's their DF5A, which is liquid-silo based .. takes a while to prepare. They only have 20 of these in confirmed existence. China is a respectable force in conventional terms, but a toothless one in terms of nuclear capability. They would need to crank out fast, solid-rocket (no warmup) ICBMs with huge MIRV warhead systems in order to compete.

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab17.asp

What is EXTREMELY sick, is the vast and potentially planet-killing nuclear arsenal of the US. Consider the absolutely staggering power of the Ohio-class boomers. A *single* Ohio could fire it's entire payload of 154 tomahawks (which can deliver nuclear payload), in UNDER SIX MINUTES. The same if you have an Ohio outfitted with it's 24 ICBMs, each of which can carry independent MIRV warhead systems ..

The bottom line is that a SINGLE Ohio can kill almost everyone in china within a span of about 30 minutes. That's the world we live in today, SSBN and ICBM/MIRV with huge MT are unequaled. Use in war would have catastrophic consequences for the world.

AFIAK, the last count of US nukes was something like 114x more than China. Only the USSR was as committed as the US was to h-bombs, and it made them go bankrupt.

I'm not sure what's worse, fighting enormous wars like WW2 where millions of soldiers and civilians die the old-fashioned way, or a next-gen nuclear war where billions die in less than a day.

Mut

Fri, 04-16-2004, 05:51 PM

i didn't understand a single word in that sentence...too many acronyms, but from what i can tell... us > china. agreed.

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-16-2004, 11:28 PM

Rofl, yeah Dazzz I think you more or less got it right i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

ad4mz41

Sat, 04-17-2004, 01:32 AM

Lots of hate in this thread, I got four words for you: WHERE IS THE LOVE??

Stoopider

Sat, 04-17-2004, 01:55 AM

NUclear is a good weapon for standoff's. No one wants to fire the damn thing. Especially now that North Korea has it.

Luckily, Iraq hasn't got one yet. It's always bad business if Rogue nations have one of these. Their too mentally unstable to realise the consequences. (Thats what he percieve, but North Korea has been keeping rather quiet though, maybe because their best Friend China isn't so 'best' anymore).

sangai

Sat, 04-17-2004, 01:55 AM

down the barrel of a machine gun.

so all of those against the war support tyrants. murders and other inhumane acts.

JusDaMan

Sat, 04-17-2004, 02:04 AM

Good old hand to hand fist fights! hell yea lol. then we can see whos the strongest of strongest in the world. US got most power weapon wise but also got most fat people. A good old fashion fist fight will tell whos the strongest in the world... and i would say... China or brazil will take home the strongest!

Kumiriko

Sat, 04-17-2004, 02:04 AM

All i can say about the war is. Proud to be canadian

Stoopider

Sat, 04-17-2004, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by: ad4mz41
Lots of hate in this thread, I got four words for you: WHERE IS THE LOVE??

Well. Politics. People have different oppinions. And the one's who begin to hate is those that think they could change the mindset of the other readers. It never happens. No matter how many facts you give. It just enrages the other side.

And the best part about it. No matter what we say or what we crap. It still wouldn't make a difference.

*Damn.. Wanted to find the 'Winning on the internet is like the special Olympics, Even if you win, your still retarded' picture.*

Assertn

Sat, 04-17-2004, 02:10 AM

you cant hug your children with nuclear arms

Kumiriko

Sat, 04-17-2004, 02:26 AM

More like Tentical or Smoldering Stumps

Assassin

Sun, 04-18-2004, 01:43 AM

id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

sangai sakusei, if u think the US will go after any kind of terrorism and acts of war etc, ur sadly mistaken.

im not sure whether ur aware or not, but recently mr.bush backed a new plan by ariel sharon (israeli prime minister).....im not sure about the details of it, but u can check that ur self if u like. the point im trying to make is, the israeli gov't has had an illegal occupation of palestine for a very long time, and is making jewish colonies (for jews *only*) in palestinian land (i believe its was in the west bank). the new israeli plan says to give back like 2% of the taken land and thats it, and mr.bush called it a "historic and courageous act"....perhaps hes not aware that according to a UN resolution (242 i think) land cannot be taken thru war by an occupying power.

and thats just *one* of the many international laws that israel is breaking (and for that matter, the US too....they broke about 6 international laws by going to war).......and as for tyrants, prime minister aerial sharon was (and i quote) "personally responsible" for the deaths of 1700 palestinian civilians in the sabra and shatila massacre....and thats according to the official 1993 israeli report. however u dont see bush chasing mr sharon with b52 bombers, do u?

nothing personal man, but before u make such bold statements, make sure ur absolutely rite. a war on terror is a worthy cause, no doubt, but in my opinion (and i emphasize the word "opinion") its just a front for another version of manifest destiny.

Xollence

Mon, 04-19-2004, 01:51 PM

Yes, I agree Assassin. Kind of ironic how the Israeli government is persecuting the Palestinians, very similiar to the Nazi during WW2.

AkimichiChouji

Mon, 04-19-2004, 03:11 PM

i believe i can say it all by doing this...

Brrr...its cold in here....there must be some nukes in the atmosphere...
My comments on this? Well of course i think this whole WMD is a bix hoax
they "say" they know where they are...where as they did not find a single one..

and when they interviewed george bush SR interviewers were asking him questions
and he said this wasnt about oil in any way...a reporter quick witted which i liked commented
"nobody said anything about oil....why did you bring that up?"

So i thought that was kind of amusing

Anyways the way i see it....the only reason the earth is going to get destroyed is by the humans living on it, we will kill each other before our planet melting or something sci-fi happen to it.

I believe this was a pointless war Bush got on the war wagon and everyone was opposed to it anyways
and now Canada has a bad name from the states....whoopie doo...now im not saying i hate americans i know many americans and they are very friendly..and they all are against the war too....

Well i think i could come up with more comments but it could easily be a screaming match or a typing match back and forth..

Xollence

Mon, 04-19-2004, 03:26 PM

Well it wasn't totally pointless. We did get Saddam and his lunatic family. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 04-19-2004, 03:42 PM

Bah, Saddam at least was keeping his idiot population in check by way of his sheer brutality. With the Hussein boys out of power, now will come an endless amount of bitching and killing by the various factions within Iraq (political and religious sects) .. and any foreign presence will be bogged down in that bullshit quagmire until they leave.

So, we (the US and coalition), have successfully traded one bad situation for another. News flash : it's not going to get any better. Probably 70% or more of the Iraqi population want to just live a happy, peaceful, normal existence, but the remaining miscreants will NEVER stop in their mindless arguing and killing, unless they are totally stomped on by someone like Saddam.

So f&ck it, its just a big waste of time, and makes the US look like total morons in the world community. It also makes Bush look like the biggest moron in history .. he uses WMD as an excuse, when all the while Kim Jong Il from North Korea is like "LOOK AT ME IVE GOT BIG NUKES AND I HATE EVERYONE AND IM MAKING MORE RIGHT NOW!!!". Rofl i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Assertn

Tue, 04-20-2004, 02:28 AM

if you're looking for quotes of stupid things bush has said.....im sure there are at least a few websites out there with a pretty nice database of it
shouldnt be too hard to 'google it

Stoopider

Tue, 04-20-2004, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Bah, Saddam at least was keeping his idiot population in check by way of his sheer brutality. With the Hussein boys out of power, now will come an endless amount of bitching and killing by the various factions within Iraq (political and religious sects) .. and any foreign presence will be bogged down in that bullshit quagmire until they leave.

So, we (the US and coalition), have successfully traded one bad situation for another. News flash : it's not going to get any better. Probably 70% or more of the Iraqi population want to just live a happy, peaceful, normal existence, but the remaining miscreants will NEVER stop in their mindless arguing and killing, unless they are totally stomped on by someone like Saddam.

So f&ck it, its just a big waste of time, and makes the US look like total morons in the world community. It also makes Bush look like the biggest moron in history .. he uses WMD as an excuse, when all the while Kim Jong Il from North Korea is like "LOOK AT ME IVE GOT BIG NUKES AND I HATE EVERYONE AND IM MAKING MORE RIGHT NOW!!!". Rofl i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Too late to backout from Iraq now. Lets hope for the Best in July eh?

About WMD in Iraq when we should be looking at N.Korea. Yup. US should have went into North Korea sooner Eh? Damn the Clinton Administration!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heheheh. I love Bush quotes. Their really entertaining. He should do stand up comedy after this year (Unless he gets re-elected).
The quote which I found most inspiring... was....
(I'm quoting this at the back of my head, so it's not accurate.. )

When he was talking to students at some Uni:
If you get A' for your grades. GOOD JOB!!!
If you get B' for your Grades. Keep on working harder.
If you get C' for your grades. YOU CAN BE PRESIDENT.

JusDaMan

Tue, 04-20-2004, 07:45 AM

Does any1 remember that funny website with the nukes and crap? i remember something like.

hokay ruling out the ice melting
meteor crashing to the earth
and the sun exploding. we will definately blow ourselves up
hokay so we got america china uk pakastan russia and india with nukes the US got 26000 more than anyone else. So one day bush wants to lauch those chinese sons of a bitches.
etc etc.
and it ends with like
califorina's gonna hang with hallwaii.... alaska can come too
THE END

SamuraiOdin

Tue, 04-20-2004, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by: JusDaMan
Does any1 remember that funny website with the nukes and crap? i remember something like.

hokay ruling out the ice melting
meteor crashing to the earth
and the sun exploding. we will definately blow ourselves up
hokay so we got america china uk pakastan russia and india with nukes the US got 26000 more than anyone else. So one day bush wants to lauch those chinese sons of a bitches.
etc etc.
and it ends with like
califorina's gonna hang with hallwaii.... alaska can come too
THE END

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/endofworld.html

AkimichiChouji

Tue, 04-20-2004, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by: Stoopider

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Bah, Saddam at least was keeping his idiot population in check by way of his sheer brutality. With the Hussein boys out of power, now will come an endless amount of bitching and killing by the various factions within Iraq (political and religious sects) .. and any foreign presence will be bogged down in that bullshit quagmire until they leave.

So, we (the US and coalition), have successfully traded one bad situation for another. News flash : it's not going to get any better. Probably 70% or more of the Iraqi population want to just live a happy, peaceful, normal existence, but the remaining miscreants will NEVER stop in their mindless arguing and killing, unless they are totally stomped on by someone like Saddam.

So f&ck it, its just a big waste of time, and makes the US look like total morons in the world community. It also makes Bush look like the biggest moron in history .. he uses WMD as an excuse, when all the while Kim Jong Il from North Korea is like "LOOK AT ME IVE GOT BIG NUKES AND I HATE EVERYONE AND IM MAKING MORE RIGHT NOW!!!". Rofl i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Too late to backout from Iraq now. Lets hope for the Best in July eh?

About WMD in Iraq when we should be looking at N.Korea. Yup. US should have went into North Korea sooner Eh? Damn the Clinton Administration!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heheheh. I love Bush quotes. Their really entertaining. He should do stand up comedy after this year (Unless he gets re-elected).
The quote which I found most inspiring... was....
(I'm quoting this at the back of my head, so it's not accurate.. )

When he was talking to students at some Uni:
If you get A' for your grades. GOOD JOB!!!
If you get B' for your Grades. Keep on working harder.
If you get C' for your grades. YOU CAN BE PRESIDENT.

You could just pretty much have it like this

NK:HEY HEY.......AMERICA we have nukes we're bad ass!!
US:Uhm....no thats ok, we started a war, we want oil theres nothing in your place

Assertn

Tue, 04-20-2004, 11:47 AM

yeah those posers.....everyone's tryin to be hip like us and build nukes

Stoopider

Tue, 04-20-2004, 01:04 PM

You ain't da bomb till you got da bomb you know.

Xollence

Tue, 04-20-2004, 08:38 PM

I think the reason we didn't attack North Korea is because of their miliitary strength. North Korea has 1.1 million man army and an atomic bomb, plus a few big allies behind them. (Russia and China) Iraq has no one, and no weapons of mass destruction and very weak army.

Swallow Your Soul

Tue, 04-20-2004, 10:03 PM

Tue, 04-20-2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by: Xollence
I think the reason we didn't attack North Korea is because of their miliitary strength. North Korea has 1.1 million man army and an atomic bomb, plus a few big allies behind them. (Russia and China) Iraq has no one, and no weapons of mass destruction and very weak army.

Russia isnt a big ally lol, theyre ppl eat bark soup.

MemnochTheCaT

Tue, 04-20-2004, 10:56 PM

Hahaha nice i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Yeah we would stomp the hell out of N Korea in a war, but it would be virtually impossible to occupy the country with ground forces until it was just a pile of smouldering ash, not to mention we would probably trigger a chain reaction leading to a flash WW3 .. Pakistan vs India, China reclaiming Formosa/Taiwan, Russia retaking eastern bloc territory, etc.

And yeah, going into Iraq = BIG STUPID WASTE OF MONEY AND LIVES .. I guarantee the answer to why it happened has everything to do with money and corruption

AkimichiChouji

Tue, 04-20-2004, 11:01 PM

person holding sign: *free tibet*
peter: I'll take it!
*goes to phone*
peter: hello china? I think i have something you want
*pauses*
peter: thats right......all the tea....

Assertn

Wed, 04-21-2004, 12:10 AM

didnt china help N. Korea out when we were there before? i dont think we'd be able to take them both on.....not without alot of sacrifice anyway

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-21-2004, 12:47 AM

That's true, during the last Korean conflict (roughly 1950-53) the Chinese were supplying the N Koreans, hell even the Russians were sending Mig 15s AND PILOTS!! Heheh. The huge difference with a modern war is that there would no longer be a continual ground engagement, but instead round-the-clock heavy bombing .. and as points of desperation were reached, would probably escalate into nuclear war.

The last Korean war was a bit more complicated because both sides didn't want to escalate the matter into WW3, but I don't think that either side would hold anything back this time around, which would lead to absolute devastation of Korea/China, and any other forces brave/stupid enough to engage the US. The reason ?

Conventional War = US domination (Heavy Bombing/AWACS Air Superiority/Sattelite-Guided Missiles/Bunker-busting bombs ) .. basically there would be no point in assembling planes/tanks/men, because they would be sitting ducks just waiting for death from afar. Same situation as Iraq had in the 1st gulf war, they had one of the world's largest and most modern armies (had plenty of Russia's top-of-the-line Mig29, and latest Russian Tanks) .. but with range superiority, its like a boxer with a 5 foot reach fighting someone with a 1 foot reach .. the Iraqi army never could get in range to strike.

Nuclear War = US domination (Fastest firing, most accurate targeting, longest range, highest payload ICBMs in history, Ohio SSBNs that far outclass anything else in the world .. a single Ohio can launch more missiles in 6 minutes than China has in it's active international arsenal!)

The only way to bog down and possibly defeat the US .. is to engage it in a prolonged and deadly guerrilla war .. bring it down to old-school soldier-to-soldier attrition in an up-close and personal hell like Vietnam or some of the untamed areas of Iraq right now.

Large scale war simply doesn't exist in the form that it did in WW1/WW2/Korea anymore .. one side or the other will have devastating losses rather quickly because of technological superiority. Go to http://www.historyguy.com/GulfWar.html and look at the numbers ..

US = 148 KIA, 400+ Wounded
Iraq = Up to 100,000 KIA, unknown wounded .. probably twice as many ..

Is this good news? I'm not sure .. war is just one thing .. bad. To have absolute and unquestionable dominance such as the US has makes things kind of scary, because if that power was to fall under evil intent, there would be nothing to stop it. On the other hand, it seems to be keeping major international powers very apprehensive about things they most likely would love to do, if only the US wouldn't come in and stomp their asses flat. China wants Formosa, N Korea wants S Korea, Pakistan and India both want each other dead and to claim Kashmir, all the Arab nations want Israel dead and vice versa, Russia wants Chechnya and a variety of other lost territories, the list goes on. A likely possibility is that once one of the hot spots flares up big, other countries will join in to take advantage of the confusion, and the division of US power. The US couldn't fight a war in China, the Koreas, Russia, the Middle East, and Europe simultaneously, aside from just leveling everyone with planet-killers. And nobody wants that ending ...

Stoopider

Wed, 04-21-2004, 01:54 AM

Memnoch speaks the correct,

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
That's true, during the last Korean conflict (roughly 1950-53) the Chinese were supplying the N Koreans, hell even the Russians were sending Mig 15s AND PILOTS!! Heheh.

Yeah. This was the still at a shakey time period leading to the cold war. Communists want their countries. South Korean's want theirs too. North Korea recently gotten their bomb. I think around or slightly before 2002 (Issit??). That wasn't really long ago. Now they are a country that would have very drastic circumstances should US invade. Sorry...liberate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2604437.stm

Well, thats the strange thing about today. Lack of action, and you'll get terrorist doing all kinds of stuff. If you take pre-emptive action. You'll get people complaining. Unfortunately we'll never see the circumstance of both sides 'what if' how things work out.

Case in point: After World War 2, GEneral Marshall, called off he Nationalist attack in China, led by Chiang Kai Shek who was already winning and fighting off the Communists because The commies and the US were buddies. For the mean time. Had it not been called off, he probably wouldn't have a Korean War, A vietnam War, or even a cold war.

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-21-2004, 02:17 AM

Where do you think the next flashpoint will flare up at? My $ is on India vs. Pakistan, based on my opinion that if/when Musharraf gets assassinated, the Pakistani military will attempt a pre-emptive nuclear strike on India's population centers in order to claim Kashmir fully.

Check this out : http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-12-14-pakistan_x.htm

All evidence related to the attempted assassination attempts on Musharraf indicate that they are being developed from WITHIN the Pakistani government. Add to this the fact that the population of Pakistan overwhelmingly supports terrorism, al qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, and ANY and ALL forms of violence and war against all non-muslims, and you have an almost guaranteed recipe for mass bloodshed.

Kind of interesting, a few nutcases could quite literally start a flash war in which a few billion people get incinerated. We will probably see this happen in the next few years or so .. barring a miracle. I fear that outside of experiencing an almost biblical armageddon, the brainwashed fundamentalist islamic retards will continue on this path to certain death ..

AkimichiChouji

Wed, 04-21-2004, 05:56 AM

I think there will be an assasination attempt on bush i mean bush tries it on other leaders someones bound to target him.

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-21-2004, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by: AkimichiChouji
I think there will be an assasination attempt on bush i mean bush tries it on other leaders someones bound to target him.

There are only a handful of agencies in the world who could pose a credible threat, if they wished, to the president. Israel's Mossad comes to mind as a group expert in assassinations. However, that being said, there is no viable reason to do so. Bush would simply be replaced by someone who would go on making the exact same policy decisions, so the only reason would be personal vengeance.

Where threats of assassination get really severe is when a majority of your own country wants you dead and buried... like Musharraf. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Lego

Wed, 04-21-2004, 07:32 AM

Where threats of assassination get really severe is when a majority of your own country wants you dead and buried... like Musharraf

yeh, musharraf was almost assinated like 3 times, each time he escaped. For some reason i find that funny, that like a bomb goes off and he goes

HEHEHE

and runs away through the open door

Xollence

Wed, 04-21-2004, 12:12 PM

http://sobigandblack.mediahalo.com/image/fi71f684f3.medium/0419042iraq1.jpg this is just horrible lol.

sangai

Wed, 04-21-2004, 12:32 PM

i garuntee that kid has no idea of what that sign says.

Assertn

Wed, 04-21-2004, 12:57 PM

either that or its one of those images where people just go in and photoshop whatever they want it to say

MemnochTheCaT

Wed, 04-21-2004, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by: Xollence
http://sobigandblack.mediahalo.com/image/fi71f684f3.medium/0419042iraq1.jpg this is just horrible lol.

Lol that's awesome .. looks a little fake though i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

Uchiha-Itachi

Thu, 04-22-2004, 06:24 AM

.. who cares about the Iraq war .. not me ..

AkimichiChouji

Thu, 04-22-2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT

Originally posted by: AkimichiChouji
I think there will be an assasination attempt on bush i mean bush tries it on other leaders someones bound to target him.

There are only a handful of agencies in the world who could pose a credible threat, if they wished, to the president. Israel's Mossad comes to mind as a group expert in assassinations. However, that being said, there is no viable reason to do so. Bush would simply be replaced by someone who would go on making the exact same policy decisions, so the only reason would be personal vengeance.

Where threats of assassination get really severe is when a majority of your own country wants you dead and buried... like Musharraf. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

Hasn't there been "hits" on fidel Castro for quite some time now? except every one has failed so far?
example: Married with children..

if anyone remembers that episode

Assassin

Sat, 04-24-2004, 10:24 PM

@MemnochTheCaT

dude u gotta be kidding me! pakistani population supports terrorism and any/all forms of violence?

this is the type of western ignorance and stupidity that really pisses me off. Its exactly this kind of stuff that ignites the fire that is terrorism. First of all, the kashmir conflict isn't important enuff to start a nuclear war. Pakistan isn't trying to "claim" kashmir, its trying to get rid of the self appointed indian control in the area....and recently musharraf has said "fuck it" since the kashmiri ppl aren't doing anyhitng themselves (i personally agree with him....no point in getting ur ppl killed for someone who's not willing to fight for themselves)

secondly, its true that all assasination attempts are from within pakistan, from apposing political parties. these are the ppl who dont want change, ie: education in rural areas. If the villagers in the rural parts of pakistan were to be educated, the peer's (village "leaders"....basically local dictators) would lose money and power. there are also fundementalists who think musharraf's sold out to the us. these are the ones who want musharraf dead, not the rest of the country, since hes the only leader in a VERY long time thats not corrupt and actually has balls.

thirdly, the ppl who support al qauda and other terrorist groups only make up about 0.001% of the population. these are the molvi's who run the madrasa's (islamic skools).....they have no education whatsoever (and i mean that literally) and think anything that has a different view that what they've *learned* (there is a difference between what they know and what the quran says)should be destroyed.

lastly, those ppl u mite have seen in the news holding signs praising bin laden etc, are idiots. they have no formal education past middle skool, and believe whatever the molvi's say. they in no way represent the rest of the country, or the government.

sorry if i sound angry, but it really bugs me when ppl make judgements based on what they've seen in the news or read on the internet......its what the bush administration is doing rite now, with the whole "with us or against us" thing. the world isn't simply black and white, there are about 999, 999, 999.1 shades of gray in the middle.

MemnochTheCaT

Sat, 04-24-2004, 10:40 PM

Yes, I've been to India and Pakistan (also Egypt, and many other countries in the middle east and asia). MOST of the people I talked to absolutely support what the terrorists are trying to accomplish, and Bin Laden is in particular, a HERO to the population at large. Out of maybe 50 conversations I had with locals, I only talked to a couple that didn't profess joy at the violence that Al Queda has accomplished.

On another note, I DETEST what our government has done internationally .. well .. ever since the 40s really. Bush is a global embarrassment.

But before you call something 'western ignorance', go travel the world to learn what that truly is. It's not ignorant to know that the population of Pakistan overwhelmingly LOATHES the western powers, ESPECIALLY the USA. It's just the truth, nothing more. Of all the middle-eastern countries I visited (I skipped Israel and Saudi Arabia), the most friendly population was the Jordanians .. but there was still a definite hesitation to talk, and a veiled fear of 'speaking freely'.

Yes, there are shades of grey, but there are a couple of pretty clear conclusions :

(1)- The Muslim population in the middle east (particularly in places like Pakistan) basically hates non-muslims.

(2)- Who cares!? Let them hate us, leave them in their 3rd world countries! Bush is doing it all wrong .. waste of time going to Iraq .. terrorism is only as important as you are willing to make it, and we are sacrificing freedom for 'security', not to mention igniting global hate for the US.

Assertn

Sat, 04-24-2004, 11:05 PM

mmmm thanks assassin, hit me up with some more stereotypes......you're lookin good
almost makes you sound intellectual

Assassin

Sun, 04-25-2004, 12:00 AM

first of all i apologize if for my "ignorance" comment. althought i still stand by it, it wasn't directed solely at u. im well aware that u dont agree with what bush is doing, but that doesn't change the fact the the majority of americans think the ppl from 3rd world contries are stupid and "hate freedom" or someother shit like that (perhaps not the majority, but a good amount). im glad to hear that u've been outside of teh states and have talked to ppl outside ur own country. however 50 conversations from a country of 140 million ppl hardly consitutes a majority. Im from pakistan. i grew up there, and not a single person i know "loathes" western powers. what they loathe is the actions of the governments, and they are well aware that governments dont always represent the ppl.

to this day i have yet to meet any pakistani (or middle eastern) who supports bin laden or other such terrorist groups. that's not to say that they dont occasionally agree with his or some other groups' cause. but no a single person i have ever met has said "bin laden is my hero" or something like that. i dont doubt that there are ppl who think of terrorists as heros, but like i said before, the majority of these ppl are uneducated, and all they know is that america (to them america and american gov't are the same thing) is bossing the muslim world around and is persecuting muslims, and for that they should be destroyed. add a bunch of religious leaders who say that bid laden is doing god's work, and u get the 50 ppl u have conversations with.

basically, if i were to go to hicksville, USA and ask some redneck with a shotgun (pardon the setreotype) what he thought of bush and his war, he'd probably say bush was a hero as well. u ur self have said how much of an idiot bush is and how u detest what ur gov't has done internationally, but there are well educated ppl who praise bush for his actions.

the point im trying to make is, there are always ppl who think ppl like bush or bin laden are hero's, but the majority of them are idiots who dont know what's reall going on in the world. that doesn't mean that EVERY single person has the exact same opinion. So to say that the muslim population basically hates non-muslims is ignorance. it would be more corerct to say that the muslim population hates US foriegn policy.

@AssertnFailure

kindly point out where these "stereotypes" that u speak of are.

Xollence

Sun, 04-25-2004, 12:42 AM

Actually I have met some people that thought Bin Laden had the right to do what he did. They're not ignorant or uneducated, just bad people. I mean how ignorant or uneducated do you have to be to know that killing people is bad? They know it's bad but they still support it.

By the way, happy birthday AssertnFailure!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Assassin

Sun, 04-25-2004, 12:59 AM

well as i said in my earlier post, there are ppl who're like that (for example all of al queda). but there are also ppl like collin powel who think little brown patches on sattelite images are chemical weapon facilities, and use that as a reason to invade a country......the world will always have dumbasses, lol. its the whole universal balance thing....can't have smart ppl without idiots i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Stoopider

Sun, 04-25-2004, 08:06 AM

Most countries like that should not have 'freedom'. Their people aren't educated enough to handle their freedom. They need some. But restrainted freedom to a certain extent.

Sun, 04-25-2004, 12:29 PM

its actually true many ppl in middle eastern and overall muslim countries do not like, well frankly, hate the US and its people. the sad thing is it isnt their fault, its their radical leaders and people like Bin Laden who tell them that the US is against them and against their religion. they are told this since they are children and as the years pass they grow a strong hate for the US. not too long ago i seen a special on MTV about Iraqi teens. in these kids books they are taught to hate and kill Jews and Americans. that dorky MTV journalist guy asked these 2 teens what they thought of Sep 11. they responded they felt bad for them but that the US deserved it. now with the Iraqi close to becoming free, thought they dont see it, some Iraqi kids are not seeing the US as evil as they were once taught. so what happens to these kids? in Iraqi schools kids who show any liking to the US get beaten.

Stoopider

Sun, 04-25-2004, 02:22 PM

Don't blame them. They just want to be popular. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Assertn

Sun, 04-25-2004, 02:44 PM

actually assassin was referring to the "western ignorance" line

and even though you may have meant it towards certain groups of people on the western hemisphere, i'm sure there would be the same groups of people on the eastern side...so to say that its a western thing to be ignorant about war, politics, economics, culture, history, and all the other things that relate to international affairs, would in fact, be stereotyping

Assassin

Mon, 04-26-2004, 05:38 PM

actually i said that *type* of western ignorance, not that its a western thing to be ignorant. i was referring to those individuals in the west who assume things based on what the governent or newspapers say. i've already mentioned that there are ppl in the eastern side that are the same.......forming opinions about ppl on the otherside of the globe cuz of what u've heard from someone else is ignorance. it happnes on both sides, i know that. if it wasn't for this lack of knowledge, we wouldn't have to deal with situations like sept 11, or the iraq war.

Stoopider

Thu, 04-29-2004, 06:51 AM

Since it's on topic.
---------------------
Do you think 10 years from now, Iraqi's are going to look back and praise Americans for liberating them??

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-29-2004, 04:37 PM

Not a chance, America will contiunue to be hated with supreme vengeance for centuries to come. Peace will probably never come to the middle east, sad to say... unless in the aftermath of a world war, a unified arab league arises that establishes a government which is non-islamic, that is committed to principles of freedom, education, and stability. Likely? Nope. The middle east, just like most of the world, is full of a few rich/powerful who like to stomp the pure shit out of the general population. The Islamic faith, while completely fine in itself, makes for horrible control/manipulation to further the goals of the leaders/manipulators .. while weakening the general population.

Swallow Your Soul

Mon, 05-03-2004, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
The Islamic faith, while completely fine in itself, makes for horrible control/manipulation to further the goals of the leaders/manipulators .. while weakening the general population.

Thats why I don't like it when religion has too much influence on politics...I'm glad we don't live like that these days...

And as to whether the Iraqi people will appreciate us going over there and giving them capitalism, I'm not sure...I guess we won't know for some time. Opinion seems to be divided over there (and of course over here), and the humiliating and torturous treatment of prisoners which has allegedly been inflicted by some American and British soldiers will not have helped one little bit.

Imagine from a normal Iraqi's perspective...their brutal dictator is overthrown and it appears as if the people who are supposed to have saved them are treating suspected criminals in a similarly sadistic fashion to the sort of thing Saddam might have done (eg the thing where the guy had to stand on the box and if he fell he'd get shocked).

MemnochTheCaT

Mon, 05-03-2004, 04:03 PM

Good points, SyS, and I want ro re-iterate .. I meant no offense to the Islamic faith, just the dangers that befall the populace of an Islamic-led government.

Xollence

Tue, 05-04-2004, 12:26 PM

Well those criminals deserve a taste of their own medicine. I doubt normal prisoners of war get treated the same way as these scumbags.

Stoopider

Wed, 05-05-2004, 07:28 AM

All prisoners of war gets treated shitly. It's no surprise about what happend there in the jails in Iraq.
It's because of the internet that things get widely spreaded. Really have to complement the intelligence of those fellows taking photographs of the Iraqi's in the jail. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Swallow Your Soul

Wed, 05-05-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by: Xollence
Well those criminals deserve a taste of their own medicine. I doubt normal prisoners of war get treated the same way as these scumbags.

From what I heard they weren't all prisoners of war...some guy who was getting abuse was apparently a thief...

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 05-14-2004, 02:37 AM

I wonder how the fallout from the decapitation thing will affect public opinion .. not much I guess, I just wish they didn't have that stupid rule that says you cant show pictures of the coffins being shipped back over here i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

chambers

Sun, 05-16-2004, 02:21 PM

iraq=new ireland/israel/bosnia (delte where apliccable)

but hey lok at the bright side, at least the US got its oil.....................

UnF

Sun, 05-16-2004, 04:34 PM

All i have to say is You people who say

America only thinks about it self, and stuff realy know nothing

If you had to go through what my Grandfather did u would understand. He fought in the Iranian vs Iraqi war and died because of BIO weapons. Do any of you know what its like to die from a BIO attack. I think America's actions were good, weather their intensions were good is another story. Also about the Prisoner abbuse, the people who did that should dig their own graves and should be shot for treison, thats all there is to it.

Also if any one wants to diss the war effert please only do it if you understand what it was like to be there durring the time of Saddam. Also for all those who want to pull out now, UR RETARDED the same thing is going to happen to Iraq as what happend in Afganastan if we pull out now.

Assertn

Mon, 05-17-2004, 12:12 AM

if the US got iraq's oil.....then it wouldnt be costing us $2+ per gallon for regular gas i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif
at least, in the northeast US thats what the rate is at the moment

Xollence

Mon, 05-17-2004, 12:51 PM

You can't just take their oil.

I think the democrats are trying to make this war worse off than it already is. Especially that Kerry. I would've respected this man more if he tried to do what was right instead of taking advantage of the situation just for his political campaign.

Oh by the way I just found this out: George W Bush had better grades in school than Gore. Amazing isn't it?

Mon, 05-17-2004, 05:22 PM

hey dont talk bad about my boy kerry, he is a nice dude. ive met him a few times, he comes to the inner city a lot to talk to kids. i used to be in this church basketball league, and he used to come down, he seemed pretty nice. i just hope he beats bush, i cant stand bush.

hiddenpookie

Mon, 05-17-2004, 09:43 PM

hAPPY PEOPLE! make the world go round... The fact is that iraqi's had it coming and now is the time they pay for it. though soldiers were acting very racist and natzi'ish against those prisaoners and the guy they chopped the head down. cause its the alqaudia were really after for. but when are fellow americans were falling from skyscrapers iraqi's etc* were jumping up and down with celebration.

Stoopider

Tue, 05-18-2004, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
hey dont talk bad about my boy kerry, he is a nice dude. ive met him a few times, he comes to the inner city a lot to talk to kids. i used to be in this church basketball league, and he used to come down, he seemed pretty nice. i just hope he beats bush, i cant stand bush.

So is every politician in the world. Well, thats in front of your face that is.

No doubt that both people Bush, and Kerry are good people.There's lots of true stories around about Bush and Kerry helping the needy and the sick and sowhatnot. If they were bastard's, they wouldn't even be seen in the eyes of politics. It's what they do behind the scenes that should be taken into account though, but every politician has his skeletons in the closet.

ANd HiddenPookie.. Their getting what they deserve?? Huh?? Thats being cruel. No doubt some or probably most are islamic fanatics, but to be tortured... Hmm... I dispute that.

However I do believe in torture for the sake of information. Like if the Americans torture the fellows so that they can find the location of more enemies. That I understand. But torturing for torturing sake.. .Me thinks thats just plain cruel. I don't pity these people. But to some extent you have to know their background and where they are coming from. To grow up under strict islamic rule and perverse teachings that Americans are devils.

Tue, 05-18-2004, 01:34 PM

i know all politicians put up an act, im not an idiot. to me its different, i dont know any other senators who came down to the inner city to talk to kids and keep a basketball league going. this was years ago, before he was running for president, so to me that shows he was actually trying to help out inner city kids instead of putting on an act for votes.

Himura_san

Tue, 05-18-2004, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by: UnF
All i have to say is You people who say

America only thinks about it self, and stuff realy know nothing

If you had to go through what my Grandfather did u would understand. He fought in the Iranian vs Iraqi war and died because of BIO weapons. Do any of you know what its like to die from a BIO attack. I think America's actions were good, weather their intensions were good is another story. Also about the Prisoner abbuse, the people who did that should dig their own graves and should be shot for treison, thats all there is to it.

Also if any one wants to diss the war effert please only do it if you understand what it was like to be there durring the time of Saddam. Also for all those who want to pull out now, UR RETARDED the same thing is going to happen to Iraq as what happend in Afganastan if we pull out now.

You're grandfather is Iranian??
The thing that upsets me is that U.S gives bio weapons to Iraq to fight Iran (killing thousands of innocent people) and now they invade Iraq because they have WMD's, which cannot even be found.
That's what I call double standards.

Assertn

Tue, 05-18-2004, 11:42 PM

hey, sometimes relations change........osama used to be on our side and we hooked him up with goods to fight against (um, was it communists? i dont really remember)

and now look at what he did

Himura_san

Wed, 05-19-2004, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
hey, sometimes relations change........osama used to be on our side and we hooked him up with goods to fight against (um, was it communists? i dont really remember)

and now look at what he did

No, sometimes you turn the other cheek when your buddy Saddam is launching mustard gas into Iranian villiages and into Kurd villiages in Iraq killing many innocent people.
Rumsfield was best buddies with Saddam when this was happening and they knew he was doing
this type of genocide.

Oh by the way I just found this out: George W Bush had better grades in school than Gore. Amazing isn't it?

LOL whoever said Gore was smart? The guy said he invented the internet!!
Comparing two dumbasses does not mean much.

Assertn

Wed, 05-19-2004, 01:05 AM

that doesnt exactly counter my point though

in fact it kinda supports it

RESPONSE TO BELOW:
one would think that by the argument, but that "No" at the beginning sounded like a disagreement to my post that he quoted

Stoopider

Wed, 05-19-2004, 01:09 AM

I think that was his intention i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

JessiA

Wed, 05-19-2004, 11:47 AM

Here's something EVERYONE should be aware of:

http://congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg

Basically, they're planning on bringing back the draft, including men and women, not allowing college as an excuse to 'dodge' the draft (now you have to finish up your year/semester, and you go)... and so forth. Because this is going to be an excrutiantingly (sp?) long war, the government can't rely on people just volunteering to fight anymore.

Wed, 05-19-2004, 12:08 PM

whats wrong with that?
if your going to live here you should want to fight for your country

chambers

Wed, 05-19-2004, 01:46 PM

so says somone whose never been to a hostile zone me thinks.
ive been on tour in ireland, its not nice. infact id go so far as to say its the worst thing anyone can ever experince.

Stoopider

Wed, 05-19-2004, 01:56 PM

Don't think its such a good idea to have it. However having National Service and sneakily deport the countries Youth would be interesting. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

The problem with US, is that their taking over the job of UN, useless dinks. Being the only country to contain the war against terror.

But also, handling Iraq with very minimal casualties require a immense number of soldiers. To tighten security.

Wed, 05-19-2004, 02:25 PM

chambers how about you stfu dont act like you know me you stupid son of a whore. people should want to protect their families was my only point.

Rek

Wed, 05-19-2004, 02:59 PM

they should, but they shouldn't be forced to. I plan on joining the military, but I WANT TO. There is no place for people in the miltary who are drafted... its just not right.

Plus, Where the HELL is the freedom in that? "Oh, we are america, we allow you to do whatever job you please, worship any god you want, and sue the hell out of anything that moves, but wait... what if your a pacifist? No... we can't have that, why don't you get in there and fight for some oil.... what you don't want to? too bad, because this is america, and if you don't want to tough... leave then... on second though, nope, you can't leave... we won't let you. whore"

That just SCREAMS freedom.

Xollence

Wed, 05-19-2004, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
whats wrong with that?
if your going to live here you should want to fight for your country

Yes if it came down to that I would, but that's not the case. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with the United States and it's security. It's all about Saddam, oil, and for the "freedom" of the Iraqi people.

The draft will cause more problems. Nothing's worse than fighting along side a pacifist.

Wed, 05-19-2004, 03:59 PM

i agree, the war in iraq isnt worth dieing for in my opinion, especially since soldiers are getting killed by who theyre trying to protect.

Assertn

Wed, 05-19-2004, 04:26 PM

there's no need to get excited about this draft thing......wars these days are mostly technology-oriented, using missiles and bombs instead of foot soldiers, and i highly doubt they need more people for this iraq thing....dont they plan to set up the new government in a month or 2? all they have to worry about are a bunch of random armed civilians

Xollence

Wed, 05-19-2004, 04:29 PM

I think that's the problem. Random armed civilians are a lot tougher to deal with than an actual army.

Assertn

Wed, 05-19-2004, 04:36 PM

so you're implying that the random armed civilians are going to cause the US to draft more people?

Stoopider

Thu, 05-20-2004, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by: Xollence
I think that's the problem. Random armed civilians are a lot tougher to deal with than an actual army.

He's talking about Guerilla Warfare.

Assertn

Thu, 05-20-2004, 01:01 PM

i uh.....know what he's talking about
but that doesnt change anything

thats the second time already that you've misinterpreted a conversation between me and someone else i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Xollence

Thu, 05-20-2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
so you're implying that the random armed civilians are going to cause the US to draft more people?

No, I'm implying that it would be a lot tougher to deal with random civilians. Look at the way the war is going so far, around 800+ dead and 4300+ wounded just from "random armed civilians". And even when they setup a new government, troops will be staying there for another year or more. They're actually sending more troops right now.

This war won't be all about missles and bombs, many foot soldiers are required for house to house searches and city fighting.

Assertn

Thu, 05-20-2004, 02:22 PM

the size of our army isnt by any means low enough for them to go drafting people just to act as police officers in iraq....which is the point i was trying to make

and obviously we wouldnt be dropping bombs on iraq for random civilians.....i was saying "WAR is technology driven".....and i would hardly consider watching guard around the new government as any sort of war

Thu, 05-20-2004, 02:44 PM

maybe intelligence says there may be a larger war soon like NKorea or China, and the government knows they need more troops. you never know really, maybe they just want a bigger army to be prepared

Xollence

Thu, 05-20-2004, 02:45 PM

Our soldiers will still be fighting and dying in Iraq for at least another year, since I doubt the Iraqi people will follow the new government which will most likely be US controlled. I wasn't saying anything about a draft, just saying we shouldn't underestimate the random armed civilians. It's going to be a lot more than just watching guard.

Stoopider

Sat, 05-22-2004, 01:30 PM

I don't think their going to implement it. Unless, like Sharingan Kakashi says. As it is right now, it's illogical.

chambers

Sat, 05-22-2004, 03:34 PM

i actually agree with national service, i think everyone at age 16 should be sent for 2 years service ESPECIALLY men. they should be only trained however, not sent to war, then when the times comes and they need a national draft they have a pool of already trained young, fit men. people who want to abstain form the draft will be allowed to do so because they will have a pool of some 20-30 million men at least ready to step up. it would also be a great benefit to the society, crime levels would drop at incredible levels, young men would be given disipline, direction and drive. they would also have MONEY, a deposit on a house maybe? pay for the education perhaps? almost anyway you look at it it works.

and S-K i wasnt trying to belittle you or anything, i was just saying that anyone who thinks that everyone should/want to fight for there country hasnt been there themselves. ive seen men the size of mike tyson cry because they want to go home, its not nice. the thing about the army is you go in and its hell untill you wake up and realize it just isnt getting any better. the day you work out that every day is shit no matter what, is the day you can keep doing it. so sorry s-k no offense meant.

*end preech*

Stoopider

Sat, 05-22-2004, 10:27 PM

16 maybe a bit too young wouldn't it? I would think around 18 or 19 just after high school.

Xollence

Sun, 05-23-2004, 03:09 AM

Yeah a lot of Asian countries send 18 year olds to the army for 2 years.

Stoopider

Sun, 05-23-2004, 08:09 AM

I can only think of two countries... Singapore and Isreal. Not too sure about Taiwan. Oh yeah, switzerland as well. I have a friend there who 'was' a chauffeur for the general for his National Service. Awesome!

Malaysia has National Service as well, but it's non militaristic.. It's a total waste of time thinking that it will promote nationalism, patriotism and racial tolerance by marching in circles and running around parks under the sun.

Stoopider

Sun, 05-23-2004, 08:09 AM

chambers

Sun, 05-23-2004, 12:19 PM

i think youll find a lot of countrys do it actually, but i never knew switzerland did it??????? in fact i woulld have thought they discouraged people form joining there army, as people pay a LOT less taxes so they cant fund it as much as a nother country the same size.

FearTheMullet

Mon, 05-24-2004, 01:07 AM

I haven't bothered to read through this whole thread but one post did catch my eye. "The Us is making the world a better place, and if that means removing some tyrants, then so be it." What I want to see is someone go remove the tyranically terrorists sitting in Washington that think they own the World. All the US did by invading Iraq was repeat the mistakes they made in Vietnam. When a people are "liberated" by a system and culture they dont want to be "liberated" by they will NOT co-operate. Just like when the USSR "liberated" Poland, that led to 50 years of political and social unrest, marshall law being impsed in the 80's and massacares of protesters. Or other Eastern block European states, armed uprising that led to nothing. Or for example in the Balkans when Milosevc thought he could tame the Balkans into his Yugoslavia, the same think Bush thinks he cna do in the middle east, occupy a TOTALLY different culture then the one he has grown up in and change their thinking by bombing them out of their homes. If the Americans are there to make peace, why in hell do your boys in arms think its a necesarry self defense to drive a truck over a poor Iraqi's car because he stole a few logs of wood. Yeah, your armies soldiers are bright. Your government (and as is justice in many posts) your citizens feel and think because "We have the most pwoer we can do anything we want to pretect ourselve. Its no terrorims tohugh, its self defense" Bull shit, and your arguments of "You dont live here, you dont know what its like" The Iraqi's are brainwashed? How aobut you yourselves? YOur not brainwashed thinking in your closed minded ways? Germany was the greatest Millitary power in 1939, they served all the asses of their enemies to them on a silver platter and thought they could do whatever they wanted. Eventually over time they were destryoed. I sincerely hope, and no offense and you may take this in a bad way and think "Oh my god! Your evil and disgusting" but I SERIOUSLY hope your frekaing country gets more millitary attacks and some REAL casualties. Oh boo hoo 9/11! Wah wah! 2000-5000 people died, we gotta cry and excepct condolense form the world, when did America say " Oh I'm sorry Palestine, the Israeli millitary is commiting terrorist acts funded by us" or "I'm sorry Kurds, and citizens of Iraq, your dictator was killing you off because we sold him weapons" or better yet "Hey america, we trained Bin Laden, your own govenment did this". Honestly, I dont like to hold stereyotypes but many postrs on this foorum have confirmed that you Americans are so fucking isolated from war and hate and death you go apeshit on thw world because two buildings blow. Cry me a river that whole fucking country is full of pussy boys. A few thousand people died in a building explosion the whole world is to blame. Where I come from 6 Million Jews and 3 million non jew burned allive in the gas chambers, we didnt expect an apology and condolences form the world. Nor did we get them, you wanna know what my country got for our participation with the Western allies? America BANNING our army for partaking in victory parades with the rest of the armies that fought. the ban was lifted in the 1990's and we were finally allowed to amrch with the rest when jsut about 60% of our vetrans died off. Honeslty, you damn americans piss me off. What you idiots need is to someone to invade your country and kill a few million of you ass holes off so you can come down here to reality where everyone else is at.

Mut

Mon, 05-24-2004, 01:27 AM

sucks to be a non-american, fearthemullet. it's ok though... maybe one day your country will be just as strong and proud as our's! =D

chambers

Mon, 05-24-2004, 07:55 AM

OMG man parapgraphs are your friend!!

but about your topic, the thing you are hopeing for IS iraq. the allied forces will get there asses handed to them for years and years to come. just like in vientam where the 3rd largest army in the world pushed back the largest, in iraq the (only estimates by MI5 apparently....) 2nd largest guerilla force in the world today will hand the allies there own asses back. the ting is america has always rellied on strength in numbers an technology, and when neithe rnumbers or tech matter that have lost. its a well laughed at fact that only the US navy (and not the army or usaf) even knows what stratagey is.

but dude wishing for people to attack other people is insane. and i totaly do not give a flying fuck about iraqis or anyone else that can attempt to overthrow the largest army in the world but not some piss pot dictator. if all the iraqs just sat and waited this would be over a LOT sooner and the allies would be gone within a few years.

FearTheMullet

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
sucks to be a non-american, fearthemullet. it's ok though... maybe one day your country will be just as strong and proud as our's! =D

Proud? Of what?

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
sucks to be a non-american, fearthemullet. it's ok though... maybe one day your country will be just as strong and proud as our's! =D

haha i was thinking the same thing! i didnt even read that whole friggin rant, too, damn, long.

Assertn

Mon, 05-24-2004, 11:09 AM

of course FearTheMullet couldnt have pride for his country....thats why he doesnt even let us view his profile!

i guess you can compare the US's brainwashing to the brainwashing of the iraqi government once bush starts gassing his own people and blaming it on another country

i like though how you took the liberty of speaking on behalf of iraq, despite the fact that alot of them would actually like a government that gives them more power and freedom. My friend served civilian duties in iraq, and had not encountered a single situation where he had to shoot at anyone....you make it sound as if their people actually preferred to live under saddam's tyranny

edit: wooo....2000th post!

Mut

Mon, 05-24-2004, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
sucks to be a non-american, fearthemullet. it's ok though... maybe one day your country will be just as strong and proud as our's! =D

Proud? Of what?

proud of knowing the fact that my country can kick your country's ass. don't be jealous man. where are you from btw?

Mon, 05-24-2004, 11:57 AM

hahaha mutata cracks me up, congrats on 2k btw assert. ive said it before and ill say it again, the US is the strongest country in the world, and therefore can do whatever they want, dont like it too bad.

Stoopider

Mon, 05-24-2004, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet
Where I come from 6 Million Jews and 3 million non jew burned allive in the gas chambers, we didnt expect an apology and condolences form the world.

Auswitch,Poland? Just an educated guess.

Assertn

Mon, 05-24-2004, 01:22 PM

oh wow, you must be one of the few that could sit and read through that whole thing.....

frankly though, the 9/11 thing really doesnt have much to do with invading iraq....it might have started the momentum....

but in your case, instead of getting apologies and condolences from the world, other countries decided to come and help FIGHT for you guys.....which is kinda more than just a condolence.....if you ask me

Mon, 05-24-2004, 03:30 PM

didnt they get their own country? and look what that did now, israel and palestine on the news every single day.

Xollence

Mon, 05-24-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
sucks to be a non-american, fearthemullet. it's ok though... maybe one day your country will be just as strong and proud as our's! =D

Proud? Of what?

proud of knowing the fact that my country can kick your country's ass. don't be jealous man. where are you from btw?

haha too funny. Apparantly he's from Poland and was alive during the 1940s.

chambers

Mon, 05-24-2004, 04:56 PM

s-k i dont think its very nice to refer to the enitre jewish religion as 'they'.

and 'they' are on the news every day because the US funds them to keep attacking.

Assertn

Mon, 05-24-2004, 04:59 PM

the US funds them to keep them from being destroyed

Mon, 05-24-2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by: chambers
s-k i dont think its very nice to refer to the enitre jewish religion as 'they'.

and 'they' are on the news every day because the US funds them to keep attacking.

huh? i wasnt reffering to the entire jewish community you little maggot. read the above posts and you would know who i was reffering to as 'they.'

Swallow Your Soul

Mon, 05-24-2004, 07:58 PM

Sigh, things have got stupid again...the posts had gotten a little more intelligent and thought out, and all it took was one guy who went way over the top against America and everyone just gets offended and as a result, a load of people erupt and start talking shit again.

"Our country could kick your countries ass"...yeah thats a REAL good argument about whether something is right or wrong "ive said it before and ill say it again, the US is the strongest country in the world, and therefore can do whatever they want, dont like it too bad.", both are true, but neither of them are an argument. Both are just childish bickering. Idiotic statements like that are for people who are incapable of making a valid argument, and therefore get all 10-year-old on you. (I'm sure if it was possible you'd repeat what the guy said in a stupid voice i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif)

The guy called Mullet or whatever it was...don't generalise America by certain peoples opinions...from what I've heard there were polls sampling public opinion in America, and 54% weren't convinced that the war was fully justified. I think the statistics are similar in Britain. You did make some points in that huge paragraph, but you went over the top and said some pretty dumb stuff which completely invalidated (at least in most peoples minds) your argument. Which is a shame. America does NOT need to be attacked, all Americans are NOT the same, and suggesting America is full of pussy boys is out of order. Some of your points were valid in my opinion, but going off on one just slagging EVERYONE based on a few comments is totally wrong.

I've made the points I wanted to make earlier in the thread so I won't re-iterate them, but the thread was getting a bit better until one outburst got everyone all defensive...I've said before, I can't see why this forum doesn't seem capable of holding an argument about any subject without degrading into a slagging match of 'whose country is better than who' (people don't need to be told America are the major superpower) etc etc.

Xollence

Mon, 05-24-2004, 07:58 PM

What's not nice about calling a group of people they? Should we stop using the word they from now on?

Mut

Mon, 05-24-2004, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul
"Our country could kick your countries ass"...yeah thats a REAL good argument about whether something is right or wrong

i wasn't arguing about anything. i was just stating a fact. and besides, i don't care about this kind of stuff. i just said it for fun.

Assertn

Mon, 05-24-2004, 08:11 PM

haha yeah i do that too sometimes.......its like when you know somebody's pissed about something, and trying to piss you off because of it, but you really dont care so you rub it in his face some more.....
if his statement in itself wasnt flawed enough to be so easily rebuttaled, i prolly wouldve done just the same i/expressions/devil.gif

Swallow Your Soul

Mon, 05-24-2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul
"Our country could kick your countries ass"...yeah thats a REAL good argument about whether something is right or wrong

i wasn't arguing about anything. i was just stating a fact. and besides, i don't care about this kind of stuff. i just said it for fun.

Yeah, I guess so, its just a shame that the guy (Mullet) seems to be letting himself get that pissed off and say dumb stuff as a result...like I said in my last post, no-one is really gonna look at your actual argument if you're just gonna go off on one and go over the top like he did.

Mon, 05-24-2004, 08:52 PM

haha i just wanted to answer with a reply as idiotic as his long ass paragraph. he is just a bitter mofo and needs to accept the world how it is, its not changing anytime soon.

FearTheMullet

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:06 PM

Bitter about what? Theres only one first impression someone can make on someone else, and from what I ahvve read so far on this topic, the Americans to me, seem exactly as I described them. Dont tell me I'm wrong for holding that opinion towards them.

Xollen, never in my post did i say i was around in 1940. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

And you may think some of my views are radical and "idiotic" but what America needs is to fight a full scale war on her territory. Or a guerrilla war liek in Iraq and Israel. or any middle eastern country, Americans are soft, and thats a fact. YOu people have been untouched by violence, and your armies full of pansies. Real heroic driving tanks through houses and over peoples cars. Real heroic.

FearTheMullet

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
of course FearTheMullet couldnt have pride for his country....thats why he doesnt even let us view his profile!

i guess you can compare the US's brainwashing to the brainwashing of the iraqi government once bush starts gassing his own people and blaming it on another country

i like though how you took the liberty of speaking on behalf of iraq, despite the fact that alot of them would actually like a government that gives them more power and freedom. My friend served civilian duties in iraq, and had not encountered a single situation where he had to shoot at anyone....you make it sound as if their people actually preferred to live under saddam's tyranny

edit: wooo....2000th post!

They dont perfer Saddams tyranny, but they sure as hell dont want Americas, there is way TOO much of a counter culture for it to work. Americas gonna han over power in june (or is it july?) and all is going to hell again. The people in Iraq do not view democracy in the same way we do. Its natural for us, for them its radicaly different, and a huge change to what they know. The US will not succeed in liberating Iraq in any way (except removing Saddams regime). The tough American government went into a hell hole they cant get out of. They're transferring power because they're taking the easy way out. Like in Afganistan. Whos policing it now? Canadians. The US government never takes responsibilty for itself, all they di in Iraw was Vietnam 2.

Mut

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:17 PM

well, there is one thing you're wrong about. the way you post; no multiposting plz, use the edit button!. =D

anyway, america doesn't need to fight any guerilla wars on our territory. there is absolutely NO WAY any country can win through guerilla warfare on our home turf. america likes to push buttons that are labeled: nuke #1, nuke #2, nuke #3, etc...

EDIT: it's hard for any country to invade another country and expect to win fighting on the opponents home turf, but if you're crazy enough to try to invade the u.s., we will sink your home into the waters =D

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:25 PM

as long as countries remember hiroshima, theres no way theyll try and attack us home turf. and whats up with this 'soft' and 'pussy' bullshit? where i grew up i might not have faced war as in that sense, but ive seen it in another way and it can be just as ugly. so dont sit there in your computer chair acting all hard like you know how it is in america especially if you dont live here.

Assertn

Mon, 05-24-2004, 10:43 PM

the reason why there's never a fight on our turf is cause everyone else is afraid to attack us directly....
so if we're pussies, then what word would describe THOSE people? geez do you always contradict yourself in your statements?

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet
They dont perfer Saddams tyranny, but they sure as hell dont want Americas
you were right up until that comma, im afraid....for it seems they do in fact want a democratic government

as for your obviously exaggerrated opinions about hundreds of millions of people.....nice attempt on your stereotyping, but it seems even people who dont live in america are calling you a dumbass......so i suggest you go find some other activity to play with, rather than making a fool of yourself within the safe confines of your little computer desk......your mullet has "tree hugging hippie" written all over it i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

i think the thing that surprises me most, is that it seems you're from germany....and before us an our allies intervened, your government was killing millions of your people, as you had mentioned yourself........
yet.....you.....DO have a problem with outsiders helping to free a country from its government? I think you better take a look in the mirror at the face that might not exist if it wasnt for our country

chambers

Tue, 05-25-2004, 12:33 PM

didnt they get their own country? and look what that did now, israel and palestine on the news every single day.

well who the hell are you tlaking abotu you fuckin moron? sounds like jews to me.

also america isnt the be all and end all of the world you guys know, europe in terms of technology, army size, navy size, airforce size AND experince in ALL kind of battles europe comes out on top. i know it isnt a country but you could not nuke germany with out the whole of europe with the exception of probly the UK doing something about it. also MANY MANY countrys have nukes now, its not like the US is alone there any more, one nuke in fort knox (bad sp maybe?) and america would be wasted utterly and truley, no other country relys on the gold they have (heck no other country HAS that gold for a start lol) for almost everything they do.

Mut

Tue, 05-25-2004, 01:18 PM

dude, that's completely unfair. why are you trying to create a scenario where a country has to fight a whole continent?

Tue, 05-25-2004, 01:47 PM

what the hell is chambers talking about now? chambers your the fuckin moron, what the guy said was where he came from 6 million jews were murdered and they didnt get any condolensces or ask for any. so yeah i reffered to some european jews as they, like i said if you had read the above posts then you would had known what i was talking about. but instead you have to act like an ignorant dickhead and try to start a debate about me calling the european jews who settled in israel after WWII as they. big deal i called them they, why are you so offended?

and um...whats the point of your europe vs usa comments? oh i know, its your nature as an idiot to write stupid bs like that to try and stir up trouble.

FearTheMullet

Tue, 05-25-2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
the reason why there's never a fight on our turf is cause everyone else is afraid to attack us directly....
so if we're pussies, then what word would describe THOSE people? geez do you always contradict yourself in your statements?

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet
They dont perfer Saddams tyranny, but they sure as hell dont want Americas
you were right up until that comma, im afraid....for it seems they do in fact want a democratic government

as for your obviously exaggerrated opinions about hundreds of millions of people.....nice attempt on your stereotyping, but it seems even people who dont live in america are calling you a dumbass......so i suggest you go find some other activity to play with, rather than making a fool of yourself within the safe confines of your little computer desk......your mullet has "tree hugging hippie" written all over it i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

i think the thing that surprises me most, is that it seems you're from germany....and before us an our allies intervened, your government was killing millions of your people, as you had mentioned yourself........
yet.....you.....DO have a problem with outsiders helping to free a country from its government? I think you better take a look in the mirror at the face that might not exist if it wasnt for our country

I am from Poland. Not Germany. Close but no cigar. And Iraq is far form free. If you read the rest of what I put, you might have caught the part about the difference in culture. Like I said, it'll never work. Iraq, a country which has been imprisoned by a dictator will not become democratic in one year jsut because America thinks they can do it. It's impossible.

I never said they didnt want, or wont desire a democratic way of life. But a democratic way of life can not be pushed upon them by America invading them. This isn't like when Germany had a Democratic puppet government installed. They have been living for hundreds of years in a different culture with religious fanatacism. I know my previous rants have gotten out of hand, but my main points (which, I can admit were drowned out in some, ... poorly phrased sentences) that I am trying to communicate is America may be a super power, but her government lacks the mental capacity to think it can change Iraq into a democracy just like that. If America, the worlds super power (which they are) can't contain a guerrilla war between the Sunni, and Shi'i, do you think its at all possible for a 3rd world country to do this? A country that has a totally different culture then that of the west?

For Iraq democracy and an equal way of life is a big step, a step that war from a foregin state cannot institute lightly. In the long run getting Saddam out of the country was a good step but now that Americas backing out and "transferring" power, or as I like to put it "releiving themselves of responsibility for their war", what do you think wil happen? Poeple will rush to the polls to elect a government? Sunni and Shi'i will walk hand in hand? I predict a civil war, were thousands more will die. For the next few years, the Iraq people are not going to be thanking america. Rather, they will be cursing her name, as her backing out this june is only going to cause them more problems.

"so if we're pussies, then what word would describe THOSE people?"

THOSE people are smart. Why do you think Poland sent her GROM (Polish Special Forces) into Iraq? Cause everyone knows Americas an economic superpower, and Poland knows she has more to gain economically from keeping a good front with America and the EU. Something thats no easy task, as the "leading" nations of the Eu (Germany, France) are opposing America. A laughable group of states. Everyone knows America has a strong economy for now, so why not utilise it. Remember jsut because a "weaker" cuontry is "sucking up to" your country (which Poland is not, we got payed quite a lot of money to sen GROM into iraq) doesnt mean they respect your country. Its an economically sound think to do with a national debt of 60 billion dollars to do anything for money.

chambers

Tue, 05-25-2004, 03:20 PM

erm SK perhaps because i may be a jew? i dont particularly like people saying " hey they got there own country and look what they did with that". did you ever stop to think about it. jeez you are so narrowminded. AND OF COURSE I FUCKIN KNEW YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT JEWS if i didnt know what you were tlaking about how the FUCK did i find it offensive?

the point of europe v usa? the point is all you americans are saying "hey well just drop a nuke" now if you listen to what i said instead of pulling random part of it and taking them out of context you would see thta iff a country tried to drop a nuke in any country in western europe, the country that droped it would be removed from the map.

FearTheMullet

Tue, 05-25-2004, 03:34 PM

Chambers, using "they" is not racist, NEITHER is it racist to say what the Israeli Army is doing in Israel is worng. Condemming the killing of children is not anti-semetic, its common sense.

MemnochTheCaT

Tue, 05-25-2004, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by: chambers

didnt they get their own country? and look what that did now, israel and palestine on the news every single day.

well who the hell are you tlaking abotu you fuckin moron? sounds like jews to me.

also america isnt the be all and end all of the world you guys know, europe in terms of technology, army size, navy size, airforce size AND experince in ALL kind of battles europe comes out on top. i know it isnt a country but you could not nuke germany with out the whole of europe with the exception of probly the UK doing something about it. also MANY MANY countrys have nukes now, its not like the US is alone there any more, one nuke in fort knox (bad sp maybe?) and america would be wasted utterly and truley, no other country relys on the gold they have (heck no other country HAS that gold for a start lol) for almost everything they do.

Sorry to break it to ya, but google up information on the nuclear arsenals of the world, there is no credible equal to the United States in terms of quickly deliverable (anywhere on earth) thermonuclear warheads. If you combined the strategic nuclear capabilities of every country on earth other than the US, it's still child's play in comparison. Nothing to be proud of, I'm somewhat ashamed that my country has spent untold trillions of dollars on weapons of unimaginable destructive power. Food for thought : the trident boomer sub can surface and fire it's entire payload of MIRV missiles in under six minutes, and a single one of those subs carries enough destructive power to kill or destroy just about every living thing on a continent the size of north america.

The reasons for this are pretty simple : the US more or less 'cheated' on nuclear arms treaties, saying one thing while doing another .. and was competing with the USSR to maintain a fragile stalemate of mutual assured destruction should one side choose to start a war. In the midst of this arms race, virtually every other country on earth with nuclear arms was recieving directive from one of these 2 superpowers, and of course, much weaker arsenals and technology so that the balance of power did not shift from the titans to the little guys. Even the Chinese nuclear arsenal is pathetic in EVERY area of strategic importance (Targeting, time to fire delay, missile guidance system, warhead power, sigint).

A conventional war between the US and EU would go to the EU, but a nuclear conflict is something Europe and most of that part of the planet simply wouldn't survive. The fallout and tertiary effects would be catastrophic GLOBALLY... meaning everyone would be a loser in the end. Unless you want to take into effect Neutron weapons, commonly called clean nukes .. AFAIK Israel is the country with the most development in this area, but information is difficult to come by regarding that issue.

L8r

Tue, 05-25-2004, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by: chambers
the point of europe v usa? the point is all you americans are saying "hey well just drop a nuke" now if you listen to what i said instead of pulling random part of it and taking them out of context you would see thta iff a country tried to drop a nuke in any country in western europe, the country that droped it would be removed from the map.

has any1 seen the movie "wargames"?
1 country drop a nuke then EVRYBODY will.... then we are FUCK
no humans no animals and FFS NO ANIME/MANGA...

NO NUKES, NO NUKES i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

MemnochTheCaT

Tue, 05-25-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by: L8r

Originally posted by: chambers
the point of europe v usa? the point is all you americans are saying "hey well just drop a nuke" now if you listen to what i said instead of pulling random part of it and taking them out of context you would see thta iff a country tried to drop a nuke in any country in western europe, the country that droped it would be removed from the map.

has any1 seen the movie "wargames"?
1 country drop a nuke then EVRYBODY will.... then we are FUCK
no humans no animals and FFS NO ANIME/MANGA...

NO NUKES, NO NUKES i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Actually, something that is *quite* sobering and scary .. is that the USA and USSR spent untold fortunes in anticipation of actually developing a strategic nuclear attack that would annihilate the enemy while nullifying retaliation (GW optic defense, etc) .. thus enabling the use of nuclear arms as 'pre-emptive' options. China is a good example of this, their DF ICBMs use liquid fuel, and the silos take upwards of 30 minutes to prepare for launch. A pre-emptive strike on China with subs in the area would most likely take effect before a counterattack could be manifested.

The goal of the world should be to make nuclear weapons either (A)- something that no one will use, because of assured mutual destruction (the old cold war balancing act) .. or (B)- with effective defense systems, they are ineffective at penetrating improved missile defense systems.

Tue, 05-25-2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by: chambers
erm SK perhaps because i may be a jew? i dont particularly like people saying " hey they got there own country and look what they did with that". did you ever stop to think about it. jeez you are so narrowminded. AND OF COURSE I FUCKIN KNEW YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT JEWS if i didnt know what you were tlaking about how the FUCK did i find it offensive?

the point of europe v usa? the point is all you americans are saying "hey well just drop a nuke" now if you listen to what i said instead of pulling random part of it and taking them out of context you would see thta iff a country tried to drop a nuke in any country in western europe, the country that droped it would be removed from the map.

wtf chambers your such a dumbass it amazes me. all your doing is putting words into peoples mouths left and right. i never once said " hey they got there own country and look what they did with that" YOU did. i really could care less if your a jew or not chambers.

before you said "s-k i dont think its very nice to refer to the enitre jewish religion as 'they'" now obviously i did refer to some jews as they, but hear you are, the village idiot, putting words into my mouth. when i said they were given their own country, i wasnt reffering to the entire jewish religion, i was reffering to the european jews who immigrated to israel. that was why i said look at the above posts. so that maybe your simple mind could understand that i wasnt reffering to the entire jewish community.

i still dont see the point to your europe vs. usa comments, except to show how much of complete imbecile you are. now who said drop a nuke on europe? im just wondering but i just skimmed through so im not sure. lets play the numbers game, US nukes=12100, France=510, UK=400. hmmm...why would the US want to fight europe anyway, doesnt look like much of a contest. Lets check out manpower, US=73,597,731, France and UK combined=24,443,355. hmmm....i guess you could add in more countries to even it, like portugal or something.

Xollence

Tue, 05-25-2004, 05:24 PM

I say we ban the word "they" when referring to European Jews since it's so offensive. Actually we should just take it out of the dictionary since it's such an evil word. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

originalkrn

Tue, 05-25-2004, 05:55 PM

The US is the most powerful country in the world. Beleive it. However, we are only at top because we've been pretty lucky so far. The two World Wars nearly destroyed all the top nations of the world, except America since there was not a single battle fought on American soil.

FearTheMullet

Tue, 05-25-2004, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT

Originally posted by: L8r

Originally posted by: chambers
the point of europe v usa? the point is all you americans are saying "hey well just drop a nuke" now if you listen to what i said instead of pulling random part of it and taking them out of context you would see thta iff a country tried to drop a nuke in any country in western europe, the country that droped it would be removed from the map.

has any1 seen the movie "wargames"?
1 country drop a nuke then EVRYBODY will.... then we are FUCK
no humans no animals and FFS NO ANIME/MANGA...

NO NUKES, NO NUKES i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Actually, something that is *quite* sobering and scary .. is that the USA and USSR spent untold fortunes in anticipation of actually developing a strategic nuclear attack that would annihilate the enemy while nullifying retaliation (GW optic defense, etc) .. thus enabling the use of nuclear arms as 'pre-emptive' options. China is a good example of this, their DF ICBMs use liquid fuel, and the silos take upwards of 30 minutes to prepare for launch. A pre-emptive strike on China with subs in the area would most likely take effect before a counterattack could be manifested.

The goal of the world should be to make nuclear weapons either (A)- something that no one will use, because of assured mutual destruction (the old cold war balancing act) .. or (B)- with effective defense systems, they are ineffective at penetrating improved missile defense systems.

Even scarrier then nukes are biological weapons. A nuke is just radiation that breaks down your cells so fast you wouldnt hav etime to know what hit you. I watched a documentary on the cold war, America mae 1 billion tonnes of biological weapons per year, the USSR mand 500 billion per year. Imagine a biological war like that. Utterly more terrifying then a mere nuke.

Without nukes being considered at all US and USSR could have destryoed the world 30 times over with jsut Biowarfare

chambers

Tue, 05-25-2004, 08:41 PM

SK you fucked up big there somewhere, this aint a flame but i wanna know whos ass you pulled those figures out. your own government last time i checked has a limitd on your standing army of 487k. 73m??!?!?! thats well over a million form every state!!! and where did you only get 2m for both of the UK and france yet you managed to get 73m for the us? if your talking total man power, the uk alone has a population of around 70m, with france cumming in at 40-45m. where the FUCK did you get them numbers from?

also i dont see how the us v eu is a wrong argument. iam basically saying that if the US decided to launch a nuke at a european country the rest of the EU would most likley attack the US due to there close proximity.

and abotu people quoting numbers for nukes, it doesnt really matter most country could probly be disabled with 100 launched at them, and that would be the entire country. also do you REALLY think that country tell eachother how many nukes they have? i dont think so. its not the kind of infomation that a country would disclose to the public.

Tue, 05-25-2004, 09:39 PM

i got all those numbers from the CIA factbook, but i guess you know more than them huh chambers. looked like i missed a 4, but i corrected it.

Xollence

Tue, 05-25-2004, 10:05 PM

Chambers: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military That's where he got it from.

You launch a nuke at a country they launch one, we all know this, what's the point in bringing it up in every single post? Once the US develops the missile defense system, that won't matter much. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Assertn

Tue, 05-25-2004, 11:05 PM

FearTheMullet.....it sounds to me like you're saying that since that people of iraq would have to deal with a strong culture change by changing the government, that they should just stay as a dictatorship forever. Change happens, and its something that is for the best, whether it may be inconvenient or not. I was just talking to my friend who served in iraq today, and he told me how horrible the conditions were there.....here you have saddam living in huge palaces while the people live in such poor work environments that when the US gave them hard hats for construction, they all took them home and left them there because they didnt want them to get SCRATCHED! My friend even saw some guy with a big circular saw cutting pipes while just sitting on the pipe without a hat, goggles, gloves, or anything....having a better government would not only give them more power, but it would improve their standards of living as well. There were iraqians who begged the US officers to take them to the US to live or to recieve medical treatment...and my friend says that they ask soldiers for stuff ALL the time because they view americans as "VERY GENEROUS PEOPLE"

you really have no grasp of reality, do you?

chambers

Wed, 05-26-2004, 07:20 AM

SK iam sorry, there isnt 24million men in the french and UK armies, theres not even 10 million if you put them both together. i dont know which CIA fact book your reading but i advise you to throw it away because ita garbage. utter garbage at that. if the uk half half the men you mentioned that would be 12m people in our army, thats over 1 in ten in the army, thats just not a realistic figure for any 1st world country.

Stoopider

Wed, 05-26-2004, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet

I am from Poland. Not Germany. .

Hey!! I was right!! BTW, do you like Jerzy Dudek?? I like him too. Go LIverpool! Sorry. Sidetracking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm Chambers, if they do have a martial law like the discussion earlier, the numbers would be more realistic. Especially to have a full blown war like that, the Gov would throw in everything they got.

But that is the CIA book whatever. Who are we to dispute?

And the US army does have the Anti-Nuclear tactical weapons or something like that I was hearing in the news.. Saying that it can take out a nuclear arm weapon from a distance before it touches US's soil.

US is still the worlds superpower, supirior technology so what not. But it's impossible for them to rule over countries. Too many God damn liberals!! Hah i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

chambers

Wed, 05-26-2004, 10:27 AM

^^^^
well ive been in the british army, thats who iam to dispute. the UK couldnt raise a 15m strong army in ten years even with conscription. neither could any other 1st world country for that matter. i dont care what book says it its wrong, its not the number for the standing army and the reserves put together, even that is less than a tenth of what he stated.

listen this book is WRONG. sk tell me that author/editor of it please? (iam not saying it doesnt exsist, but i would like to know who fucked up so much and still managed to get abook published)

Wed, 05-26-2004, 10:33 AM

ok here you go chambers.
The World Factbook is prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency for the use of US Government officials, and the style, format, coverage, and content are designed to meet their specific requirements. Information is provided by Antarctic Information Program (National Science Foundation), Bureau of the Census (Department of Commerce), Bureau of Labor Statistics (Department of Labor), Central Intelligence Agency, Council of Managers of National Antarctic Programs, Defense Intelligence Agency (Department of Defense), Department of State, Fish and Wildlife Service (Department of the Interior), Maritime Administration (Department of Transportation), National Imagery and Mapping Agency (Department of Defense), Naval Facilities Engineering Command (Department of Defense), Office of Insular Affairs (Department of the Interior), Office of Naval Intelligence (Department of Defense), US Board on Geographic Names (Department of the Interior), US Transportation Command (Department of Defense), and other public and private sources.

Mut

Wed, 05-26-2004, 11:38 AM

chambers is gonna get captured and interrogated by the cia for suspicion of endangerment to the u.s. by calling their book garbage.

Swallow Your Soul

Wed, 05-26-2004, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by: Stoopider

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet

I am from Poland. Not Germany. .

Hey!! I was right!! BTW, do you like Jerzy Dudek?? I like him too. Go LIverpool! Sorry. Sidetracking.
[/IMG]

Stoopider do you like every team in the Premiership? I remember you commented on my old Man City related sig (that I don't have anymore) i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Xollence

Wed, 05-26-2004, 02:26 PM

Chambers I already gave you the link to the book. It's on http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military

"WWW.CIA.GOV""WWW.CIA.GOV""WWW.CIA.GOV""WWW.CIA.GOV""WWW.CIA.GOV""WWW.CIA.GOV"

Military manpower - "availability""availability""availability""availability""availability""availability""availability"

well ive been in the british army, thats who iam to dispute. the UK couldnt raise a 15m strong army in ten years even with conscription. neither could any other 1st world country for that matter. i dont care what book says it its wrong, its not the number for the standing army and the reserves put together, even that is less than a tenth of what he stated.

Hmmm... that's not true. Germany mobilized 20 milion during World War 2, Japan 9.7 million, and Brits 5.8 million, and the USA 16 million... all in a few years.

chambers

Wed, 05-26-2004, 03:04 PM

iam sorry to break it to you guys, but that figure of 73m is not males serving in the army, its available man power. in other words its males aged 18-20 (maybe slightley older, but 18-20 has traditionally been the call up age for every country) who are not in education, carrying any permannet injuries or have a religion that is against killing people (cristian doesnt count neither does jewish).

if you think your army has 73m in.........well i feel sorry for you.

if thats the same place you got the figures from france and the UK then its the same thing.

and @ xollence you do realise that ww2 had conscription right? we dont have that now. people are a LOT more open minded now than they were then, a lot more people would simply refuse. so i reckon they could probly match the numbers (no way germany could make it to 20m tho) but then they would be totally exahausted.

Xollence

Wed, 05-26-2004, 03:24 PM

We never said we had 73 million serving in the army, we said that it's the size of our military manpower. Big difference.

S-K's first post about this:

Lets check out manpower, US=73,597,731, France and UK combined=24,443,355. hmmm....i guess you could add in more countries to even it, like portugal or something.

No where did we ever say that we had 73 million serving in our army.

chambers

Wed, 05-26-2004, 03:42 PM

yes well its misleading to state that. the US would never get 50m to fight in a war, let alone 70 plus.

FearTheMullet

Wed, 05-26-2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
FearTheMullet.....it sounds to me like you're saying that since that people of iraq would have to deal with a strong culture change by changing the government, that they should just stay as a dictatorship forever. Change happens, and its something that is for the best, whether it may be inconvenient or not. I was just talking to my friend who served in iraq today, and he told me how horrible the conditions were there.....here you have saddam living in huge palaces while the people live in such poor work environments that when the US gave them hard hats for construction, they all took them home and left them there because they didnt want them to get SCRATCHED! My friend even saw some guy with a big circular saw cutting pipes while just sitting on the pipe without a hat, goggles, gloves, or anything....having a better government would not only give them more power, but it would improve their standards of living as well. There were iraqians who begged the US officers to take them to the US to live or to recieve medical treatment...and my friend says that they ask soldiers for stuff ALL the time because they view americans as "VERY GENEROUS PEOPLE"

you really have no grasp of reality, do you?

Close but no cigar, what I said was that the US's view has no grasp on reality. By invading the country and ousting the dictator they turned the whoe soceity upside down, and now they are backing out. Post war Iraq was conrroled by the Sunni minority, adn the Shi'i was opressed. The rich Sunni minority is not gonna give up their power to the Shi'i. In the midst of the Sunni uprisings, they're (the US is) leaving. Saddam is gone but Saddams tyranny has been replaced with a civil war. A civil war that the US can't contain, so they are "Transferring power" in othe words "avoiding responsibilty for the god awful position they have placed Iraq in". Read everyinthg before telling someone they dont grasp reality, and dont try and tell me I'm wrong, this isnt opinion this is fact. The US started the democratic movement in the wrong way, all they did was through the country into civil war.

FearTheMullet

Wed, 05-26-2004, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by: Stoopider

Originally posted by: FearTheMullet

I am from Poland. Not Germany. .

Hey!! I was right!! BTW, do you like Jerzy Dudek?? I like him too. Go LIverpool! Sorry. Sidetracking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm Chambers, if they do have a martial law like the discussion earlier, the numbers would be more realistic. Especially to have a full blown war like that, the Gov would throw in everything they got.

But that is the CIA book whatever. Who are we to dispute?

And the US army does have the Anti-Nuclear tactical weapons or something like that I was hearing in the news.. Saying that it can take out a nuclear arm weapon from a distance before it touches US's soil.

US is still the worlds superpower, supirior technology so what not. But it's impossible for them to rule over countries. Too many God damn liberals!! Hah i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Dman striagh , Jerzy's the man. Sadly Poland didnt qualify to Eurocup...but at least we beat Italy in a friendly. FIFA here we come!

Mut

Wed, 05-26-2004, 09:57 PM

i guess the EDIT button is disabled for certain users.

Stoopider

Thu, 05-27-2004, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul

Stoopider do you like every team in the Premiership? I remember you commented on my old Man City related sig (that I don't have anymore) i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

(Another SIdetrack)
I'm a supporter of 3 teams. Sorry because I don't live in England, therefore I might not have such loyal strong support as you guys, and I know how fanatical you are. However If I had the time and money, I'll love to go to UK and just sit in the matches at the stadium.

I watch on tv all the time though. My number one love is Liverpool followed by Manchester City(I'm a Kevin Keegan Fan, and their restocking the Old Liverpool squad i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif, but I think it's mostly I like how Man city plays).

Yeah.. FearTheMullet. Polish national team is really strange. You guys can beat champions but yet can lose to nobodies. At least you got the prides "I beat them's"

chambers

Thu, 05-27-2004, 01:47 PM

yeah theres nothing like sitting at old traford when its a full house hearing 60k plus people shouting 'united' out for a minute.

Swallow Your Soul

Thu, 05-27-2004, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by: Stoopider

Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul

Stoopider do you like every team in the Premiership? I remember you commented on my old Man City related sig (that I don't have anymore) i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

(Another SIdetrack)
I'm a supporter of 3 teams. Sorry because I don't live in England, therefore I might not have such loyal strong support as you guys, and I know how fanatical you are. However If I had the time and money, I'll love to go to UK and just sit in the matches at the stadium.

I watch on tv all the time though. My number one love is Liverpool followed by Manchester City(I'm a Kevin Keegan Fan, and their restocking the Old Liverpool squad i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif, but I think it's mostly I like how Man city plays).

Yeah.. FearTheMullet. Polish national team is really strange. You guys can beat champions but yet can lose to nobodies. At least you got the prides "I beat them's"

Yeah just to sidetrack one final time...anyone who likes the Blues over United is allowed to like the scousers (Liverpool).

KK rocks, only scary thing is that we have no money to buy new players for next season (shame we can't afford Daniel Van Buyten who would have been happy to join - he was a fucking mammoth in defence!).

It sounds like City have a lot in common with the Polish national team then...we beat United 4-1 at Eastlands yet we lost to shit teams like Wolves, Portsmouth, Leeds, Leicester etc, despite playing good football. Next season will be ours i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

The one consolation for our awful season is the fact that United came 3rd (muhahahahahaha) and went out of the Champions League.

[stops to allow people to go back to topic]

Stoopider

Thu, 05-27-2004, 10:43 PM

Of Course Sys. This season was a weird one, lots of strange dissapointments, ai. Man City with it's quality should be playing in europe dammit!

Yeah Daniel Van Buyten. That fellow was damn good. He was damn solid with Richard Dunne at the centre of the defence, Distin's not bad.. but that guy need more experience. Still not as solid.

Anyway.. Enough of football!! Where were we?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FearTheMullet is right about the Sunni Shi'te thingy. Their going to kill each other. I see Iraq splitting in half because of it. Too much bad blood extending down from many generations. It's going to take a long long time or a miracle to get over it. However I don't think their 'Avoiding responsibility'.

The Iraqi's, according to the latest poll, Iraqi's believes that US are just the next tyrants in Iraq. Not liberators. Thus, US have and is giving the country back to them, and least observe or help out in the politics or at least setting up a base. If a civil war is going to happen, at least the US can do something to minimize casualties unlike the UN. Their not pushing the responsibility back to the people. Their not goiing to chicken shit and run like Vietnam. If they do, then I would be as critical as you.

We all know that US going into Iraq opened up a can of worms(I agree with you to that part). It's in a precarious situation now, but they can't leave just like that. Then they would be really 'Avoiding responsibility'.

Fri, 05-28-2004, 12:33 PM

i dont know why the US wants to run the show so bad, too many soldiers gettin killed, hand it over to the UN so the frenchies can be happy and we dont have to deal with that sandbox anymore.

chambers

Fri, 05-28-2004, 12:59 PM

money thats why.

Stoopider

Fri, 05-28-2004, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
i dont know why the US wants to run the show so bad, too many soldiers gettin killed, hand it over to the UN so the frenchies can be happy and we dont have to deal with that sandbox anymore.

Honestly, I think the UN is crap. But with international backing, the US would probably soundmore trustworthy. Thats why I think maybe Bush would lose the coming Election because with Kerry in, probably they'll be international backing.. Maybe.

They didn't want to go into Iraq before (The UN) claiming it was 'too dangerous'. Rubbish.

chambers

Fri, 05-28-2004, 01:09 PM

stoopider you need to think b4 you type.

the UN is crap because the US and the UK MADE it crap by not following its orders, if they wernt important members of the UN sanctions would have been brought agaisnt all countries involved in the invasion and occupation of iraq.
and i dont get your point about the US sounding more trust worthy, do you mean as a replacement for the UN ordo you mean the US would appear more trustworthy if it had international backing? or somthign else?

about the UN wanting to go in. well we now know the reason (WMD) the uk and us used to enter iraq was a complete shower of shit. they didnt not want to go in because it was too dangerous. they didnt want to go in because they had NO REASON to enter the country as the UN has no interest in the price of petrol in the US. (wivh btw is still incredibly cheap!!)

Xollence

Fri, 05-28-2004, 01:21 PM

Ummm gas in the US ain't cheap, the prices are rising like crazy. We didn't invade Iraq for their oil. We already spent much more than that oil is worth.

Stoopider

Fri, 05-28-2004, 01:29 PM

Sorry, let me requote.... I meant 'Trustworthy to the eyes of the Iraqi's'

And about the UN not going in thingy.. I'll find for my backings later. Now it's 2am. Gotta get some sleep. Gnight y'all.

But Your right about US and UK made the UN crap. What happend to all the other countries eh?

Fri, 05-28-2004, 01:33 PM

see thats whats funny about some of these guys in europe (no offense talking about a certain few), they claim to know whats going on in the us when they dont know shit. where i live gas is 1.91 right now for regular, in massachusetts its 2.01 regular, if you think thats cheap chambers then your an idiot. (which we already know) its a common misconception that we get oil from the middle east, actually europe does, the us gets the majority of its oil from alaska and south america. the reason gas prices have risen in the us is because venezuela is in civil war right now, among other reasons of course.

Mut

Fri, 05-28-2004, 02:44 PM

dude, in cali, the gas prices is like 2.30.

chambers

Fri, 05-28-2004, 04:40 PM

is that a gallon or a litre? AFAIK its by the gallon over there right? we sell ours by the litre, whey do you think your country has so many big as trucks an shit? you wouldnt EVER see a 20yr old over here in a toyota.

price at the garage next to me is 79p per litre, theres abotu 4.5 litres in a gallon so that means that for a gallon of petrol over here it costs us £3.55. so in terms of real money ours is far overpriced compared to yours. now if we translate that to dollars (exchange rate being 1.8 ROUGHLY at the mo) that gives us 6.39. so there you go yours is 2 dollars ours is 6. now tell me how is your expensive? i think you shousl stfu, i lived in america for 18months over the last 3 years, so dont tell me what i 'dont' know about your country. and dont coment on how europeans think they know abotu america, coming form the single most naive and close minded country in the world (and youve just proved it cos EVERYONE in the fuckin world knows US petrol is EXTREMELY cheap)

EDIT: oil is a world economy, if production drops dramatically in one place the price goes up everywhere.