People say itachi is strongest character introduced, but what about naruto?

[gokudagreat]

Okay I understand that at this point Naruto is nothing compared to Itachi, but I think it is also wrong to say that Naruto only has the potential to be more powerful than Itachi. He has the energy already stored in him in the form of the nine tails, he just hasnt released it. Its not potential, its already there

[Gods_Son]

His body can't handle all of the Kyubi's chakra, and even when he recieves tremendous amounts of chakra from it, he doesn't know that many jutsus and doesn't have as many ways to mold and use the chakra to it's full advantage. When we have seen Naruto using Kyubi chakra, he has been impressive, but he still lost to Oro in the Forest of Death quite easily. To say that Naruto is at Itachi's level right now would just be stupid, but he will get there eventually.

[JTD121]

Maybe Chakra-level wise, but not technique wise.

mainva | aptigo | JTD out

[gokudagreat]

yea i guess i agree konohamuru, but the chakra is definitely there, its not potential

[Suzu]

In my opinion the only reason Naruto can become better is the fact that he's the main character and they want o drive home the message that hardwork can overcome any obstacle. In a real situation there is no way that Naruto would ever become as good as Itachi. But i agree that the chakra is there if Naruto could develop the skill that Itachi naturally had when he was born. Wasn't he the leader of an Anbu squad at like 11 or something?

[lasaire]

Suzu, Itachi became an Anbu captain at 13. 6 months later he offed the whole clan.

Secondly, goku, even if he has the chakra, he can't use it to its full extent yet, and his range of jutsus that he knows is way, WAY lower than Itachi. That's still potential, not actual strength.

[Knives122]

eventually he will be on par with Itachi when he's older and gets his head together

[Mut]

omg, wtf...

itachi is the strongest character introduced and that is alive. not naruto. if naruto was that strong then jiraiya wouldn't need to protect him.

[JusDaMan]

Naruto knows...
Bunshin
kaga bunshin
summoning
rasengan
koramari? (the wood switching techneque)
sexy no jutsu
harem no jutsu
uzumaki naruto rendan

Itachi knows...
excellent tai-gen-nin jutsu

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Suzu
In my opinion the only reason Naruto can become better is the fact that he's the main character and they want o drive home the message that hardwork can overcome any obstacle. In a real situation there is no way that Naruto would ever become as good as Itachi. But i agree that the chakra is there if Naruto could develop the skill that Itachi naturally had when he was born. Wasn't he the leader of an Anbu squad at like 11 or something?

That's a really bad comparison. Itachi became strong because the Uchiha Clan helped train him. Where is the Uzumaki clan? Where was Naruto's mother or father? How do you know he couldn't be anbu leader by age 11? How do you know he couldn't be hokage by age 13? He easily could have been.

As I have stated before, in terms of sheer strength, Naruto is stronger than Itachi. The definition for strength is "the capacity or potential for effective action." Keyword is "potential." Naruto has more potential then anyone who has ever lived in the manga because he has kyubi.

People do not use the excuse that Naruto's body can't handle all of kyubi's chakra. What the hell does he need all of kyubi's chakra for? Ebisu explained that you only need x amount of chakra to perform each jutsu. He complained that Naruto was using too much, uneeded chakra. What would he need to use all of kyubi's chakra for? A jutsu that uses that much chakra doesn't exist, because Naruto is the first person that has ever been in his type of a situation.

In terms of skills, Itachi hands down will beat the crap out of Naruto. Naruto lacks the necessary training because he was an outcast since his birth. No one took the time to train or help him.

In short, Naruto is the strongest character introduced. Itachi is just a extremely skilled fighter, not the strongest.

[Mut]

first, it's not an excuse, it's a fact. second, it doesn't really matter how much kyubi chakra naruto can use at the moment when the the amount he brings out is incomparable to the strength of itachi, kimimaro, orochimaru, jiraiya, etc.

[Suzu]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi


Originally posted by: Suzu
In my opinion the only reason Naruto can become better is the fact that he's the main character and they want o drive home the message that hardwork can overcome any obstacle. In a real situation there is no way that Naruto would ever become as good as Itachi. But i agree that the chakra is there if Naruto could develop the skill that Itachi naturally had when he was born. Wasn't he the leader of an Anbu squad at like 11 or something?

That's a really bad comparison. Itachi became strong because the Uchiha Clan helped train him. Where is the Uzumaki clan? Where was Naruto's mother or father? How do you know he couldn't be anbu leader by age 11? How do you know he couldn't be hokage by age 13? He easily could have been.

As I have stated before, in terms of sheer strength, Naruto is stronger than Itachi. The definition for strength is "the capacity or potential for effective action." Keyword is "potential." Naruto has more potential then anyone who has ever lived in the manga because he has kyubi.

People do not use the excuse that Naruto's body can't handle all of kyubi's chakra. What the hell does he need all of kyubi's chakra for? Ebisu explained that you only need x amount of chakra to perform each jutsu. He complained that Naruto was using too much, uneeded chakra. What would he need to use all of kyubi's chakra for? A jutsu that uses that much chakra doesn't exist, because Naruto is the first person that has ever been in his type of a situation.

In terms of skills, Itachi hands down will beat the crap out of Naruto. Naruto lacks the necessary training because he was an outcast since his birth. No one took the time to train or help him.

In short, Naruto is the strongest character introduced. Itachi is just a extremely skilled fighter, not the strongest.

You make some good points but i think you are ignoring some facts. Itachi was naturally gifted in all aspects of being a Ninja even without the training of the Uchiha clan. Sasuke had the same training (but for a shorter time because Itachi murdered his parents) but did not progress as fast as Itachi. Itachi also showed a creativity and inventiveness that was unparalleled. For instace, in Sasuke's flashback how he wanted Itachi to teach him shuriken techniques instead of the academy because the way Itachi did it was different and better.

Sure Naruto has Kyuubi but if you take that away from him he's a second-class ninja. He didn't have a family, but for a long time Sasuke didn't have one either. Naruto DOES NOT have natural talent, he doesn't think rationally and thereforehe tries to make up for this he trained twice as hard as everyone else. Once again, the hero complex of many Anime comes into play where their shear determination to become the best or whatever drives the story. Not to hate on Naruto he's one of my favourite characters ever, but he really is nothing without his given advantages: Kyuubi, reading the forbidden scroll of seals when other's have not, and Jiraiya as a teacher. If Itachi or even Sasuke don't use their Sharingans they are still top rate Ninjas.

So as the climactic arch of Naruto approaches we will see Naruto in the ultimate fight against Itachi, where Itachi beats him up really badly but because Naruto "believes in himself" he'll get up and then unrealistically beat Itachi. So in strength of Chakra Naruto wins hand down, but realistically will he ever be as good as Itachi, probably not.

[Gods_Son]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
That's a really bad comparison. Itachi became strong because the Uchiha Clan helped train him. Where is the Uzumaki clan? Where was Naruto's mother or father? How do you know he couldn't be anbu leader by age 11? How do you know he couldn't be hokage by age 13? He easily could have been.

It's been Naruto's dream to be Hokage for a while, if it was so easy for him, then I'm sure he would've been. He couldn't have been an anbu leader by age 11, because he couldn't even perform Bunshin properly back then. His parents are dead, and there is no Uzumaki clan. I know these things, because they are facts of the show. Asking stupid rhetorical questions doesn't help to prove your point.

[Suzu]

wait i just realized i was arguing the wrong aspect of the question, you are right. But in truth Naruto is not strong when it comes down to being a good ninja. I think that is where Itachi will always dominate he's an uncomparable genius of skill and therefore realistically Naruto can't beat him. But yeah, my bad when it comes to "strength" Naruto beats everyone.

[lasaire]

We're arguing semantics here, but if you're using "strength" and "potential" as equivalent and equal, then yes, Naruto is as strong or stronger than Itachi.

However, put Naruto right now vs. Itachi and Itachi will win hands-down. He has more techniques, way more battle experience, and overall better ninja skills.

Come back in ten years, hell yes I think they'll be on an equal footing.

[gokudagreat]

yeah i guess lasaire your right

[Mut]

i'm just gonna stop arguing here. just delete/forget everything i said in this thread.

byeeeeeeeeeee

[itachi_]

About that naruto have the kyubi chakra and don't know many jutsu's, just re-watch episode 62 and see what happend when he had achieved alot of it, he just ran into neji and took heavy damage to himself also, he could've done something smarter , techniques which wont damage yourself *stupid naruto*

[Stoopider]

Itachi is God. Hands down.

Naruto, possible to fight Itachi in the future. Since he is trained by Jiraiya. But as he is right now, he needs to wait maybe 10-20 years before he can take Itachi on. But Naruto is the son of the Fourth (We Hope). So Naruto is able to learn things at a incredible rate.

Thats the advantage of the Sharingan. You just see it once, your able to learn it. I think thats one of the reasons why Itachi is incredible. Maybe that could be the reason he took on his clan.

[Elessar]

Itachi is just smart. He is not only gifted with his bloodline and the physics caused by it, but he is a shinobi and thinks like one. He understands the basic concepts behind it and when you understand them you can break them down into their atomic aspects and recombine them to gain advantage. Analyze the situation and act accordingly. Determine your weaknesses and counter them with specialized training. Without a teacher.

Naruto lacks physics, determination to learn (on his own, everything has to be served on a silver plate --> annoying begging at Jiraiya), has no eye for his surroundings, too few intelligence to analyze situations and much more.

Naruto having the kyubi chakra are perls casted before swine. There is exactly one reason why he is still alive: he is the main character. And the show could have been better with a real shinobi as main character instead of that dumbf*ck, the world of Naruto deserves sth better than Naruto.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Wow that's pretty lame, Elessar. The series centers around Naruto .. if you hate it that much DONT WATCH/READ IT. Good riddance.

[lasaire]

Warning, warning!

Time for everyone to cool down a bit.

[itachi_]

I agree with you Elessar!

I stick with your conclusion... i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

[MemnochTheCaT]

'Really good written'!? I must admit, you speak English better than I speak Swedish, but that guy couldn't even summon the necessary skills to correctly spell 'pearls', and he's lecturing about shinobi and atomic energy? WTF? Itachi had the benefits of being born into an elite family, and probably had the best teachers in Konoha to help him along the way, not to mention that he has the sharingan to ease learning new techniques.

So he supposedly kills his family, and takes off to join some mafia-esque organization to hang out with some ugly loser named Kisame .. and then comes back and FAILS in the mission given to him, utterly and completely. In actual history, ninja were hired because of their ability to get in unnoticed, do their job, and hopefully get out. Itachi only succeeded in escaping, he failed miserably at avoiding detection, failed miserably at withholding his mission/employer identity. This hardly qualifies Itachi as 'smart', or even a very good ninja. There is a vey big IF about this, however, and that could be if Itachi is actually sabotaging his stated mission on purpose, and he is going about his actions for motives not currently known. Remember, being powerful and being effective are not necessarily parallel in actuality.

Itachi is EXTREMELY powerful, there is no doubt about that, and certainly in a whole different realm than Naruto currently occupies. Yet I would venture to say that Naruto, in his apparent weakness, is more of a man than Itachi is, because he realizes the integrity and honor of hard work, and standing by your friends regardless of personal cost.

If I had to estimate the strongest characters introduced so far, they would be :

1- Kyuubi (non-human)
2- The 4th (non-living)
3- Jiraiya (living)

Of course, it would be anti-climatic to have an obviously 'strongest' living character, so Kishimoto keeps things ambiguous to leave conjecture, imagination, and possibilities alive. All I can say is, it's going to be interesting in the coming months i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: KonohamaruCorps


Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
That's a really bad comparison. Itachi became strong because the Uchiha Clan helped train him. Where is the Uzumaki clan? Where was Naruto's mother or father? How do you know he couldn't be anbu leader by age 11? How do you know he couldn't be hokage by age 13? He easily could have been.

It's been Naruto's dream to be Hokage for a while, if it was so easy for him, then I'm sure he would've been. He couldn't have been an anbu leader by age 11, because he couldn't even perform Bunshin properly back then. His parents are dead, and there is no Uzumaki clan. I know these things, because they are facts of the show. Asking stupid rhetorical questions doesn't help to prove your point.

If you paid attention, you would notice that it was an unfair comparison. Let me be a little more clear (maybe you're a visual learner):

Itachi child/adolescent advantages | Naruto child/adolescent disadvantages

family trained him | No family, thus no training
Clan trained him | No clan thus no training
Socially accepted and loved | Social outcast because of kyubi

As you can see Itachi's upbringing was more favorable then Naruto's. This is why it's an unfair comparison.

Dazzz, Naruto can pull out the sennin/hokage level amounts of cantra. proof: Gamabunta and Rasengan.

[Beautiful Green Beast]

Itachi is weak! Konohamaru is the strongest of them all.

[GhostKaGe]

here we go again how come this hasn't been locked yet its so been done over and over and over..etc

[Himura_san]

To hell with all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rock Lee pwns them all!!!
*Does the Rock Lee dance*

[Elessar]

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
'Really good written'!? I must admit, you speak English better than I speak Swedish, but that guy couldn't even summon the necessary skills to correctly spell 'pearls', and he's lecturing about shinobi and atomic energy? WTF?
Alright. Up until now the discussion was about an anime called "Naruto". Things that you noticed that happened during this show and things that we noticed. And our opinions about it. Fine. Now you start insulting me personally and call me somewhat illiterate. Why? Please tell me, why?

Concerning the language issues: yes, your english is better than mine. On the other hand I am quite sure my german is better than yours. That's the advantage of discussing in ones mother tongue or not. Everything else would be plain embarrassing (not to mention that you made your decision about my "skills" based on one omitted character). As for the lecture on atomic energy - I am not aware of having talked/written about that. I used the terms "atomic aspect" or "atomic problem". Quite widespread terms in technical english, german and other languages. An atomic problem is a problem that cannot be further devided into smaller problems. Like an atom in chemistry. The same applies for an "atomic aspect" of something. How and why you correlate that to "energy" is beyond my understanding.



Itachi had the benefits of being born into an elite family, and probably had the best teachers in Konoha to help him along the way, not to mention that he has the sharingan to ease learning new techniques.
So he supposedly kills his family, and takes off to join some mafia-esque organization to hang out with some ugly loser named Kisame .. and then comes back and FAILS in the mission given to him, utterly and completely. In actual history, ninja were hired because of their ability to get in unnoticed, do their job, and hopefully get out.
True.


Itachi only succeeded in escaping, he failed miserably at avoiding detection, failed miserably at withholding his mission/employer identity.
True, except for the employer part. Jiraiya told Kakashi about Akatsuki before Itachi arrived, so why is he responsible for konoha getting this information? Jiraiya tracked Orochimaru.


This hardly qualifies Itachi as 'smart', or even a very good ninja. There is a vey big IF about this, however, and that could be if Itachi is actually sabotaging his stated mission on purpose, and he is going about his actions for motives not currently known. Remember, being powerful and being effective are not necessarily parallel in actuality.
That is the good thing about opinions - there are enough for everyone to have his own.



Wow that's pretty lame, Elessar. The series centers around Naruto .. if you hate it that much DONT WATCH/READ IT. Good riddance.There are more things one can like about an anime series than one character, even if he is the main character.
And it has nothing to do with hate at all. It's just about rational and unbiased (as much as possible) observations each and every one of us may have made and the conclusions we draw in accordance to them.
The character Naruto is an important part of the show and I accept him as that. But that does not imply that I have to love him or have to think better of him than I think he deserves.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Well said, Ellesar i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif German eh? Cool i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif

Point taken on your English, actually you only had that one typo. I saw another one of your posts in another thread that was articulate and concise, so I retract any inferred criticism directed towards your writing skills. Indeed your English skills are better than my German skills shall ever be.

I understand your opinion on the Naruto character, perhaps I took too much offense to the use of expletives for description. I will always have more respect towards someone making their point with clarity and skill rather than reverting to cursing for effect.

It appears that we actually agree for the most part on the points at hand, for example I also look at Naruto as somewhat dim-witted (although good at surprising people!), etc.

Cheers ..

[Elessar]

Kanpai!

That means we can give an all-clear to lasaire, everything's cool.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Elessar, would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the relative strengths/weaknesses of Itachi and Jiraiya.

[EpoC]

hmm,
naruto is kinda stupid and not very skilled but he can become pretty well determined about things.
For example when he learned the Rasengan, he trained very har for that, he trained almost continouosly.
he trained even when it hurted like hell. Not many people would do that except for Lee.
Just beacause he is so determined, he can learn jutsus at a pretty short time.
some people say that just because he have kyubis chakra he can beat anyone.
He may have the chakra but what good use is the chakra when you can't use it?
So he still need to learn jutsus, and the chakra doesn't make him learn the jutsus faster.
Naruto will one day become one of the strongest and whoop Itachis ass. Or wait a minute, I think Sasuke kills Itachi.

And another thing is that you don't need to be a genius to be a excellent ninja, and that is provven by lee.

[SilentDevil]

Originally posted by: itachi_
About that naruto have the kyubi chakra and don't know many jutsu's, just re-watch episode 62 and see what happend when he had achieved alot of it, he just ran into neji and took heavy damage to himself also, he could've done something smarter , techniques which wont damage yourself *stupid naruto*

well if u say it this way, ur the stupid one, without observation.

IF u noticed, naruto told neji "youre confident about close combat arent u?"
then he rushed right in.

this is to show that he wanted to beat neji at some neji was good at, just to show that he was much better than neji, and not because he was stupid.

the only one whos stupid here is u

[lasaire]

Originally posted by: SilentDevil

[quote]
the only one whos stupid here is u


Actually, the stupid one is YOU. Consider yourself warned, keep the discussion to the topic. You might read a few messages up and notice how MemnochTheCat and Ellesar resolved their differences maturely and calmly.

So, thank you Memnoch and Ellesar for providing a good example. SilentDevil, keep it to the topic.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Yeah I think Naruto did about as good as he could against Neji .. he didn't have much of a choice since he didn't have any effective ranged attacks. If Naruto could develop some more advanced taijutsu and some additional ranged attacks, he would be incredibly deadly to deal with. Rasengen is very good, but he is a bit slow with it right now, and kunai have almost always been absolutely useless against any competent opponent.

EDIT : Thanks Lasaire i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Insomniac]

the 3rd is the strongest character introduced into the series, if you dont know that you all know nothing about naruto

as for people alive right now it would have to be Itachi and Orochimaru - a possibility of Kabuto if his mysterious eyes turn out to be anything (although we see Kabuto do alot more then Itachi does)

[Zansatsu]

Naruto has just recently learned how to summon the Kyuubi's chakra, but he can't use it very effectively yet. When Naruto learns to mold and control that enormous chakra better, just imagine what he'll be able to accomplish. Naruto is very creative, so I bet he'll come up with many ways how to use it to his advantage. Apparently The Fourth was very creative too, came up with many cool jutsus. Maybe Naruto will make some kickass jutsus on his own too i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Koyuki]

Naruto has already maid 2 kickass jutsus!
Maybe he can use them against Itachi

[Zansatsu]

So far he has just used Kage Bunshin in interesting ways, he hasn't made any actual jutsus (they were kickass anyway). I mean, The Fourth came up with Rasengan, Shiki Fuujin and stuff like that.

[Gods_Son]

Hiten mitsurugi, despite Naruto's potential, I would still consider Itachi to be the strongest fighter right now. I think they all had an equal chance of being skilled, and I don't think Itachi's family environment was really that much of an advantage to him, considering he killed them all. Kyubi is actually a huge help to Naruto as well, even though it made him an outcast, and took him a while to get used to and mix it in with his own chakra. I think it's a fair comparison and you do not, let's end it at that. Itachi_, what are you thinking? You've already been "banned" once, you should probably try to keep a low profile and not annoy people

[jing]

Just because you have kyubi chakra doesn't mean anything. Kimimaro OWNED him without even to go cursed seal level 2.
Chakra does NOT equal SKILLS.
shikamaru has skills but too bad he lacks chakra.
You need both skills and chakra.
And Itachi probably knows over a thousand jutsus. you can't compare naruto with that.

[Hotsuma]

Naruto has a lot of raw power. But, that's all he has. Anybody that says he has potential like say, Itachi, seriously just need to shut the fuck up. It's been established that Naruto is nothing special. He's a hard working, low class joe.

As far as power is concerned, Naruto is stronger than Itachi. Does that mean he'll win against Itachi? Hell no. Even with his Kyuubi chakra and thousands of jutsus, Kimimaro completely made quick work of him.

End of discussion. Itachi is stronger than Naruto, not in power, but in skill, and obviously, brains. The man with the bigger guns don't necassarily always win.

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Naruto has a lot of raw power. But, that's all he has. Anybody that says he has potential like say, Itachi, seriously just need to shut the fuck up. It's been established that Naruto is nothing special. He's a hard working, low class joe.

As far as power is concerned, Naruto is stronger than Itachi. Does that mean he'll win against Itachi? Hell no. Even with his Kyuubi chakra and thousands of jutsus, Kimimaro completely made quick work of him.

End of discussion. Itachi is stronger than Naruto, not in power, but in skill, and obviously, brains. The man with the bigger guns don't necassarily always win.


It wasn't even really a fight between Kimimaro and Naruto; they were barely getting started. If it really was a fight then Kyubi chakra would have been used. You are wrong about Naruto not having the potential of Itachi. Naruto has the potential to surpass all previous kages (meaning from all villages) and that includes Itachi who isn't even a kage, because Naruto has Kyubi. The man with the biggest guns, and is willing to use it, always wins.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
If it really was a fight then Kyubi chakra would have been used.

k...i must have misread this because i think you said that "naruto did not use kyubi chakra (go kyubi mode)." I MUST'VE MISREAD IT. I MUST HAVE. plz tell me that i misunderstood it...

[hiten mitsurugi]

Naruto can summon the kage bunshin with his own cantra. Remember when he saved Iruka sensei. He didn't use it then. The first time he started to tap Kyubi was when he thought Sasuke was dead and he went crazy on Haku. Naruto can do things on his own too you know.

[Vagabond]

hm sorry to change the subject but What about Jiraiya? He seems like the only person (so far) that intimidates itachi. Also doesn't Kisame say something like "He may be a match for the leafs #1 and one of the mists seven stongest." (Note that this may be a mistranslation) Doesn't that imply that Jiraiya would be a match for kisame and itachi at the same time? So if he is a match for both of them at the same time wouldn't that make him stronger or as strong as itachi alone?

Sorry if my logic is fucked up.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Well I'll second that notion Vagabond, for the primary reasoning based on actions and goals. Itachi and Kisame came forward in order to achieve a particular goal, and when faced with Jiraiya's presence (even injured as he was!), Itachi chose to withdraw and abandon his mission for the time being. This bears several possibilities :

(1)- The goal isn't time-sensitive, and Itachi decided to retry at a more 'convenient' time
(2)- Jiraiya was too much for Itachi to compete with at that time, because he had used his sharingan too much and needed time to recuperate
(3)- Jiraiya is too much hassle to deal with under any circumstances, better to avoid him
(4)- Itachi is actually working to sabotage Akatsuki missions from within, and is actually stronger than Jiraiya

I'm leaning on a mix between points 2 and 3. I would wager that Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly evenly matched when both are 100%, but it is somewhat troubling that Itachi would withdraw against an outnumbered and injured Jiraiya (Naruto and Sasuke are completely useless against ninja of that caliber.)

Imho, Itachi < Jiraiya .. but there is nothing concrete to go on yet, and it will probably be a while yet before we know more. Only one thing is certain : it will be very interesting i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[hiten mitsurugi]

Yay on that notion. You guys (vagabond, Memnoch) are surely on the right track. Itachi left Gai alone too.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
Naruto can summon the kage bunshin with his own cantra. Remember when he saved Iruka sensei. He didn't use it then. The first time he started to tap Kyubi was when he thought Sasuke was dead and he went crazy on Haku. Naruto can do things on his own too you know.

sorry, but when naruto and kimimaro was fighting with all those clones, naruto was using kyubi chakra. it was crystal clear. his fangs grew, pupils changed, nails became claws, and wiskers became darker.

unless we're not talking about that...nevermind then.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Yeah I agree, Naruto was tappin some extra chakra in that situation. I also think it's pretty clear that Naruto hadn't gone totally berserk or serious just yet, or Kimi either for that matter .. they were both still probing each other's abilities when Lee showed up like a rabbit in a hat. Now of course, we have another guest i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif YaY 4 Gaara .. though it will certainly be nice to get some closure on one of these battles before anyone else shows up. What next? Gai and Kakashi interrupt? And then Hinata brings ramen? Time to wrap the already complex situation up .. and move on i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi


Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Naruto has a lot of raw power. But, that's all he has. Anybody that says he has potential like say, Itachi, seriously just need to shut the fuck up. It's been established that Naruto is nothing special. He's a hard working, low class joe.

As far as power is concerned, Naruto is stronger than Itachi. Does that mean he'll win against Itachi? Hell no. Even with his Kyuubi chakra and thousands of jutsus, Kimimaro completely made quick work of him.

End of discussion. Itachi is stronger than Naruto, not in power, but in skill, and obviously, brains. The man with the bigger guns don't necassarily always win.


It wasn't even really a fight between Kimimaro and Naruto; they were barely getting started. If it really was a fight then Kyubi chakra would have been used. You are wrong about Naruto not having the potential of Itachi. Naruto has the potential to surpass all previous kages (meaning from all villages) and that includes Itachi who isn't even a kage, because Naruto has Kyubi. The man with the biggest guns, and is willing to use it, always wins.


Naruto was pretty serious in that fight. He was using Kyuubi chakra. It was evident in the raged eyes, fangs and lines on his cheeks.

Naruto has more chakra than other ninjas. Does that mean he has the potential and gifts others do? Hell. No. The gun is only as useful as the person holding and firing it.

Kyuubi = automatic drop in consideration, for Naruto in the Hokage race.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Hokage race? What hokage race? What does that have to do with anything at THIS point in the story, other than that is Naruto's eventual goal? Any consideration for Naruto being hokage is probably many years off. It is quite clear that people change and grow in this series, and there is some pretty good indication that Naruto could well grow up into someone who would make a fine Hokage years down the road. (remember, he is just a brat kid right now, with a good heart and a somewhat slow brain). As for Naruto's potential, it seems like Kishimoto could make up anything he wanted .. I mean he could be the 4th's son, and carry inherited strengths that we don't even know about.

There is NO way to know one way or the other, so it's best not to make blanket statements when there is nothing but conjecture and speculation to go on. Sharing ideas is one thing, stating them as supposed facts is quite another.

[Gods_Son]

Everytime Itachi is brought up, there's always so much arguing.

v can't wait to see what happens when the anime people see Itachi v

[MemnochTheCaT]

How right you are i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Would be cool to see more level-headed discussions about Itachi and others... it's just rare.

[Mut]

just because people get a little too excited that doesn't mean we don't have level-headed or actual good discussions (i can't think of the correct words i want to use). most of discussion about itachi is filled with bright ideas/theories/thoughts.

[Daniel of Lorien]

[/quote]You make some good points but i think you are ignoring some facts. Itachi was naturally gifted in all aspects of being a Ninja even without the training of the Uchiha clan. Sasuke had the same training (but for a shorter time because Itachi murdered his parents) but did not progress as fast as Itachi. Itachi also showed a creativity and inventiveness that was unparalleled. For instace, in Sasuke's flashback how he wanted Itachi to teach him shuriken techniques instead of the academy because the way Itachi did it was different and better.

Sure Naruto has Kyuubi but if you take that away from him he's a second-class ninja. He didn't have a family, but for a long time Sasuke didn't have one either. Naruto DOES NOT have natural talent, he doesn't think rationally and thereforehe tries to make up for this he trained twice as hard as everyone else. Once again, the hero complex of many Anime comes into play where their shear determination to become the best or whatever drives the story. Not to hate on Naruto he's one of my favourite characters ever, but he really is nothing without his given advantages: Kyuubi, reading the forbidden scroll of seals when other's have not, and Jiraiya as a teacher. If Itachi or even Sasuke don't use their Sharingans they are still top rate Ninjas.

So as the climactic arch of Naruto approaches we will see Naruto in the ultimate fight against Itachi, where Itachi beats him up really badly but because Naruto "believes in himself" he'll get up and then unrealistically beat Itachi. So in strength of Chakra Naruto wins hand down, but realistically will he ever be as good as Itachi, probably not.[/quote]

You are wrong... Naruto show increadable talent... even before he could use the demon's chakara. You seem to forget his attack on Zabuza. Naruto will be strong because he wants to be... he as what he needs... ambition, strength, and support. As for the hard work crap everyone is spitting out... that isn't Naruto that's Lee. Lee is the hard work vs genius not Naruto. The moral of the series is protecting the person who is precious to you... that is what gives you true strength. This is said way way more than anything else in the whole series. In the end... Naruto is the strongest without a doubt... however strength doesn't win out... Knowledge and applied knowledge is what wins the day

[MemnochTheCaT]

That's an interesting statement, but it might help to make things that you are saying a bit more clear and understandable to the reader. Yes Lee is a genius of hard work, but that doesn't mean that Naruto, Sasuke, etc do not also work extremely hard. Sasuke just decided to try to take the curse seal shortcut, which invalidates much of his hard work, and Naruto gets bratty/impatient, which gives the wrong impression sometimes, because he IS very committed and willing to put in whatever it takes.

[Mut]

sasuke did work hard. he worked hard to gain lee's speed (without weights). and then he surpassed it by taking the shortcut of achieving lvl 2.

[abomb]

the only way naruto could beat itachi would be if he could learn to fight with his eyes closed... and found a technique that somehow couldnt be copied

[MemnochTheCaT]

Re-read my post, I clearly said that "that doesn't mean that Naruto, Sasuke, etc do not also work extremely hard". My point was that when one chooses to use curse seals for power, it invalidates much of that work, because the seal is no substitute for real power, of the likes of Itachi/Oro/Jiraiya kind of level. If anything, having the seal seems to cripple characters progress.

[hiten mitsurugi]

There's a few things I would like to point out.

If you believe that Naruto was using Kyubi Chakra just because of a melodramatic drawing of Naruto with changes in his appearance then, you guys can believe it.

So if the change in appearance hints at Naruto using Kyubi Chakra then I guess Naruto wasn't using Kyubi chakra during the Gaara fight. I mean when he summoned Gamabunta, he didn't show any feline characteristic. So he must have summoned Gamabunta out of his own Chakra. Well then damn, Naruto is getting very strong.

So I guess it wasn't just an overzealous artist.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
There's a few things I would like to point out.

If you believe that Naruto was using Kyubi Chakra just because of a melodramatic drawing of Naruto with changes in his appearance then, you guys can believe it.

So if the change in appearance hints at Naruto using Kyubi Chakra then I guess Naruto wasn't using Kyubi chakra during the Gaara fight. I mean when he summoned Gamabunta, he didn't show any feline characteristic. So he must have summoned Gamabunta out of his own Chakra. Well then damn, Naruto is getting very strong.

So I guess it wasn't just an overzealous artist.

first i thought you were right, so checked back at the manga...and i saw this:
one of the frames from page 12 of chapter 134
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~s_kim/images/frame1.gif
and then this...a frame from page 13 of chapter 134
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~s_kim/images/frame2.gif
in conclusion: a clear change in the pupil indicates that kyubi chakra was indeed used.

[gokudagreat]

If what your saying is true, then Naruto summoned Gamabunta and made all those tons of clones using his normal chakra, which is amazing, because the last person to be able to do that is the 4th, making Naruto extremely strong, and hes only a kid, so is this true?

[Lithonite]

oh man what is with all the Itachi fanboy's he strong buthe is on the same lvl as one of the 3 for the most part, or at the hokage lvl.

in te kakshi, asuma kurenai battle. Itachi obviously wasnt trying his hardest. but lets make no mistake he was trying; on a side note his exploding shadow clone was the first definately a solid technique Itachi's jutsu arsenal has not been unleashed this i am sure of. but the same goes for the 3. we really dont know what they know. what we do know is its the mange sharingan that make Itachi so damn deadly.

Addressing someones comment about itachi not killing Kakshi; simply because he didnt want to . not because he wanted to teach kakashi something jsut because he didnt want to. Itachi isnt an animal. he says he feels nothing for his village this isnt true. the fact he left Sasuke alive is testiment to fact he knows he has lived a life that must be accounted for.

[Mut]

yeah, it's true. i dunno...kyubi chakra has been mixing with naruto's for years now...it could be a factor.

[gokudagreat]

awesome, naruto just gets stronger and stronger

[Xceleration]

Originally posted by: abomb
the only way naruto could beat itachi would be if he could learn to fight with his eyes closed... and found a technique that somehow couldnt be copied

Even that wouldn't be enough. Naruto has rasengan which I think cannot be copied. The thing is at the current point in the story, Itachi is faster, smarter, has more juutsus, has the sharingan, with just those alone, Naruto could probably stand no chance, the thing is Itachi has more too, Naruto is a genin with kyuubi, but even with the mass chakra he is weak. He'd need alot more then just eyes closed fighting to beat Itachi.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Yep, even at this stage in the series, there remains a VAST seperation of abilities between characters like Naruto and Sasuke, and legends like Jiraiya, Itachi, etc. Remember how a tiny casual flick of Jiraiya's finger caused Naruto to fly several hundred feet back off of a cliff?

On a different note, the Naruto we see now is MANY times more powerful than when we first met him, that's what I love about this series, the characters really grow with the story.

[Zilious]

There's lots of good explanations for why Naruto is "looser" and Itachi is better than him. But why is that, is that coz u feel supperior about naruto beign outcast and u aren't? I think Narutos true strenght lies in him as he's being himself sometimes stupid but still he's improving himself in way others can't. Is it so wrong that oucast ppl can be main character. That's totally wrong way to think. One thing that I know about naruto and real life being born in to good family doesn't make u strong. As u fight whole ur life to achieve something makes u even stronger than anyone else can be though.. Naruto has Kuyubi inside him so what. Thats not his true strenght.

-Naruto does know the pain of others better than them.
-His determination to improve in his skills is something beoynd others.
-He'll never gives up if it would take his life.
-He's scared who wouldn't be.
-True strenght comes from your spirit and that's what Naruto knows well.
-Though Naruto was social outcast that's what made him as he is now.

That's only what I think and I don't want to argue about this.
Still I think strongest char is Naruto I don't measure brain or strenght, that's matter of spirit.

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
There's a few things I would like to point out.

If you believe that Naruto was using Kyubi Chakra just because of a melodramatic drawing of Naruto with changes in his appearance then, you guys can believe it.

So if the change in appearance hints at Naruto using Kyubi Chakra then I guess Naruto wasn't using Kyubi chakra during the Gaara fight. I mean when he summoned Gamabunta, he didn't show any feline characteristic. So he must have summoned Gamabunta out of his own Chakra. Well then damn, Naruto is getting very strong.

So I guess it wasn't just an overzealous artist.

*GASP!!* Holy crap, Hiten!! Naruto's Kyuubi chakra is FALLIBLE!! OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.


Anyway, it might be different in the manga (I haven't read in a long time), but in the anime, episode 78 and above, it clearly shows him summoning Gamabunta, without using the Kyuubi chakra. That also means, he summoned those thousands of bunshins against Gaara, too. No biggie though. He did do that before, too after all.

But yeah. Naruto used Kyuubi chakra against Kimimaro.

[HerioMortis]

The thing is Naruto automaticly uses Kyubis chakra, example: Havent they always talked about Naruto having a greater chakra stamina cuz of Kyubi? Doesnt it seem very unlikely that Naruto can summon Gamabunta with his own chakra when about a week ago he only could summon tadpoles, the thing that is reasonable though is that he summoned Gamakichi with his own chakra.
The thing is that when Naruto "asks" Nine tails for power, he gets a much larger boost of power and speed etc, no?
So the logical answer would be that Naruto taps into Kyubi's chakra when he makes that 1000 clones attack or summoning Gama Bunta, thats what he learned from Jiraya, not learning how to ask nicely to a demon :S

Well there are 2 resons for me thinking that Itachi surpasses Naruto with power 1, Well yust use common sense and think about it. 2, Why would the Akatsuki send someone who is weaker than someone they are supposed to retrieve?

[androshalforc]

Sure Naruto has Kyuubi but if you take that away from him he's a second-class ninja. He didn't have a family, but for a long time Sasuke didn't have one either. Naruto DOES NOT have natural talent, he doesn't think rationally and thereforehe tries to make up for this he trained twice as hard as everyone else. Once again, the hero complex of many Anime comes into play where their shear determination to become the best or whatever drives the story. Not to hate on Naruto he's one of my favourite characters ever, but he really is nothing without his given advantages: Kyuubi, reading the forbidden scroll of seals when other's have not, and Jiraiya as a teacher. If Itachi or even Sasuke don't use their Sharingans they are still top rate Ninjas.


If you take the kyubi away from naruto he would be nothing more than a second rate ninja mabie thats true but if you take it away you should take it all away right from the beginning.
no kyubi means the 4th (currently believed to be narutos father) diddent die most likely hes mother (whom i assume died because of kyubi or something im not really sure howor what happened to her) diddent die or whatever.
this leads to some things that might actuallly make naruto more powerfull than he currently is
1 he would have had a father who was a kage and the 4th would have probobly trained naruto himself
2 he would probobly also have an elite tutor who is a closet pervert, much like the one konahamaru has
3 he wouldent have been an outcast from the town would have had friends who would have taken the time to help him with his training instead of dooing it all by himself
4 naruto gains all the thousands of juitsus that the village knows but loses the immense power of the kyuibi
5 so in this case naruto might easily be on par with itachi
6 theres nothing special about naruto and therefore this anime would never have come to be and we wouldent be here right now discussing it

be careful what you wish for

[jing]

honestly i believe itachi can learn rasengan if he wanted to. he has excellent chakra control and hes a genius.