Theory about Itachi's eyes

[lasaire]

I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.

[Gods_Son]

yeah, I don't doubt that there is more strength in Itachi then what we have seen so far. On a side note, the mange sharingan reminds me a lot of the jyagan in getbackers.

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Itachi is more powerful than Orochimaru, at least Oro himself said so. So, we can assume that Sasuke will eventually become as strong as Itachi.
But *how* did Itachi mastered his jutsu? I mean, I would guess he trained a lot. And is Sasuke willing to work hard on his sharingan, or he will just take the shortcut offered by Orochimaru? Itachi got where he is *without* the cursed seal, and I wonder if in the end it would be more damaging than beneficial to Sasuke, having in mind that the seal drains tons of chakra, among other things. So there would be chakra needed for the seal *and* the mange. And worse, every time Sasuke tries to use his sharingan, the seal will start acting up...How will Sasuke manage to channel that huge amount of chacra without training? Right now, I don't see him exactly in a training mood.
Also, I think this jutsu may be similar to the Kaiten, in the sense that it has to be learned. So, Neji learned his move by himself, but how about Itachi? Did he just figure that out or did he learn it with his family? Will Sasuke be able to figure the mange sharingan by himself, I don't think Itachi is exactly willing to teach his little brother that.
The only one who could teach him is Kakashi, but it doesn't seem that he can perform that jutsu...

[Raven]

All this could have gone in the Itachi discussion thread, btw.

Similar to the way Neji taught himself his clan's moves, Sasuke should be able to teach himself the Sharingan abilities, so it shouldn't be a problem I'd guess.

[itachi_]

Hmm you say that Tsukiyomi is a part of the mange sharingan and Amaterasu is supposed to be even more powerful, how about that three-super-attack theory one genjutsu, ninjutsu and tai-jutsu, he has showed us the first two now we're waiting on an awesome tai-jutsu.. If your theory is correct then I wonder which technique he used on all the Uchiha's (parents, clan members) etc.. probably the powerful one.

[Boogster]

Good theory. All conjecture of course, but this kind of intelligent guess-work is what makes Naruto exciting.

[Mut]

hmm...interesting. i didn't think of itachi have 3 super powerful genjutsus. i thought it would be like: one insane genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu.

maybe we'll never know! =(

[raijin]

Originally posted by: lasaire
I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.
Well, first off, it's Mangekyou Sharingan, not Mange. Mangekyou means kaleidescope, the use of "Mange" was a mistranslation or a lack of translation... it seems they forgot about the "kyou". Secondly, I wouldn't trust the translations as 100% accurate... chapters around that area were done by random people/groups. I have an English script from AK of Troy of Toriyama's World (the original group who translated Naruto) which has the conversation between Itachi & Kisame:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

As something entirely different. As for the translation of Amaterasu, from the kanji characters used, it can basically mean "Light of the Heavens". I'm not sure of the translation of Tsukuyomi, since there seems to be various ways to represent it in kanji... it can mean "Vision of the Night Moon", "Moon Reader", or "Moon Hell". As mentioned, Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, but Amaterasu is most likely a ninjutsu considering the black flames which were created when Itachi closed his eyes and a big hole appeared in the wall.

If you've done your research about Shinto deities, you would know that there is a third, Susanoo, who is the "God of Storms", which could possibly represent Itachi's third attack... maybe a supreme taijutsu technique.

On a sidenote, if anyone happens the know the kanji used for Tsukuyomi in the Naruto manga could you post it here.

[hiten mitsurugi]

I think his eyes are red because he doesn't have enough sleep, always on the run. About his three pupils, he should really have lady tsunade take a look at them, it's not normal, it's probably giving him kaleidoscopic vision. No wonder he has headaches (probably killed off the clan to stop them from experiencing headaches).

[lasaire]

think his eyes are red because he doesn't have enough sleep, always on the run. About his three pupils, he should really have lady tsunade take a look at them, it's not normal, it's probably giving him kaleidoscopic vision. No wonder he has headaches (probably killed off the clan to stop them from experiencing headaches).

Yep, that's it. That solves the entire mystery!

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Question is: will Sasuke get his third (or forth if you consider the regular one) pupil? When and how...stay tuned.

[Haku no Fuyu]

Find out next week on,
NARUTO MANGA DISSCUSION!!!
BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Himura_san]

Originally posted by: lasaire
I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.

There was a similar discussion on NarutoFan (before shit hit the fan) regarding this. I wish I had saved it on my comp since it's now lost, but it basically came down to Itachi having 3 powerful Jutsus from the sharingan and the last one we have not seen. We saw the paralization and the black flame.
The last one had something to do with the god of war if I remember correctly.
Basically in conclusion Itachi is one bad Mofo!!!

edit: It may be god of storm (do not remember).
I am guessing that he used the last Jutsu to defeat the Uchiha clan! O_o
Also it was mentioned @Narutofan that his last jutsu was a form of taijutsu.

[Raven]

Originally posted by: raijin
Well, first off, it's Mangekyou Sharingan, not Mange. Mangekyou means kaleidescope, the use of "Mange" was a mistranslation or a lack of translation... it seems they forgot about the "kyou".
We can call it Mange for ease of typing though. It's just a nickname for it, no need to go into literal translations. If someone typed Oro, would you say "his name's Orochimaru, actually"?

[raijin]

Well, I was just giving the correct name if people were unaware that it should be Mangekyou and not Mange. And the use of "Mange" is not really a "nickname" per se... since the mistranslation was used constantly when it was mentioned, people just naturally assumed that it was the correct name.

[Raven]

Well it's not an official nickname as such, but it's generally how it's known around these forums, it's quicker and easier to type. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[BakaShinji]

The black flame is not ama-chamacallit.
From what I remember, it sounded as if isami wanted itachi to go somewhere for ama-chamacallit to "awaken"? Maybe it's also a hidden demon? =P. Naruto's beginning to sound like power rangers. (turbo rangers rule!).

anyways.

Tsukiyomi is no doubt Itachi's genjutsu.
The black flame is likely to be itachi's ninjutsu - as all the Uchiha's possessed this elemental power.
I think Amaterasu would be a suped up version of the Tsukiyomi genjutsu (perhaps during a full moon)? During the flashbacks of Itachi slayment (this a word?) of the villagers, anyone take notice of the shape of the moon?

It doesn't have to be taijutsu. Hand-to-hand combat is not supreme. I think there's an odd fascination with it because of gimps like Rock Lee. Would you really need Taijutsu if you can disable your opponents by looking at them? And if we take a look at the closest relative of Itachi to make guesswork at his abilities, Sasuke has shown no real Taijutsu prowess (stealing Rock's moves isn't spectacular).

Well that's my two cents for now.

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
And if we take a look at the closest relative of Itachi to make guesswork at his abilities, Sasuke has shown no real Taijutsu prowess (stealing Rock's moves isn't spectacular).

Well that's my two cents for now.

Yep, that's my point, why, instead of asking Kakashi to train him, he went straight to Orochi????
I don't think he's smart enough to learn that on his own, or at least be prepared physically to perform such jutsus. One thing he could do is to figure out how to get more chakra to be able to do more than 2 chidoris a day. Danm, even Sakura can control chakra better than him. He's more lazy and envious than anything. Besides, being strong is not everything, case and point Shikamaru.
He could sit down and figure out a way to kill his brother in his sleep, instead of do the macho thing and see who's stronger. Well, enough of him.

[jonny-mt]

A very nifty theory here...me likes.



Originally posted by: raijin
As for the translation of Amaterasu, from the kanji characters used, it can basically mean "Light of the Heavens". I'm not sure of the translation of Tsukuyomi, since there seems to be various ways to represent it in kanji... it can mean "Vision of the Night Moon", "Moon Reader", or "Moon Hell".

Yeah, those are the individual meanings of the kanji used for Amaterasu, but the kanji used in the manga are definitely the same ones that are used for the name of the goddess. As for the kanji used for Tsukiyomi, it is "Moon Reader" (the second is the same kanji used for 'yomu', to read).

All this added coolness just points more and more to the likelihood that Itachi is going to be the focal point of the final Naruto story arc...you know, in, like, twenty years....

Just realized I gave the potential/passive form for 'to read' instead of the plain...sorry, I'm retarded. It's close to the end of finals, so count yourselves lucky that I didn't put down causative-passive with verb stem contructs tacked on....

[DeluxSkillz]

i always thought it meant Moon and Sun so I always thought he had to rest for the moon to turn into the sun for his power to be regained

[itachi_]

I wonder when Itachi will appear the next time, I think that this arc is far from over, and it started around chapter 170-180.

I hope some of the theory's could be true it would be nice to see another strong jutsu..

[Mut]

are you still HERE?

[Assertn]

::gasp:: he has escaped from the toad esophagus that the mods banished him to!

[lionheart1012000]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
::gasp:: he has escaped from the toad esophagus that the mods banished him to!

like...woah...now im scared *runs off into the a random dark corner*

[lasaire]

The black flame is likely to be itachi's ninjutsu - as all the Uchiha's possessed this elemental power

Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHEN did it say this? We don't know anything about this black flame, it could just be another ninjutsu Itachi copied from somewhere, unrelated to the Sharingan.

I really don't think Mangekyo, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are each one of the three main ninja arts, meaning one is tai-, on is nin- and one is genjutsu. I believe they are all genjutsu based on metal damage using the Sharingan itself. After all, going way back into the Zabuza Haku arc, genjutsu skills are one of the basic components of the sharingan.

[Vagabond]

I think he/she meant that the uchihas specialize in flame jutsus. I dunno if thats true but it would make sense since the only ninjutsus we've seen sasuke use are fire based. Or it could just be a konoha thing.

[lasaire]

Well, Konoha IS the Fire Country's ninja village, after all. The Hokage knew and used several fire jutsus vs. Oro. I think it's just a Leaf Village thing.

[Raven]

Well it's still a good clue though, the fact that Sasuke has used nothing but fire, and then we see Itachi use a super-fire technique. Suggests that Uchiha use flame techniques primarily. Sure, the Hokage used them, but he knows every jutsu remember.

[Assertn]

yeah but there were random chuunins during the war vs sand and sound that were shootin fire everywhere too

[Raven]

But still, Sasuke being a gennin constantly using a Chuunin lvl fire attack suggests that he specialises in them. Also remember the massive one he used on Orochimaru in the forrest of death, not everyone can do that.

We'll have to wait and see if he can use higher level fire attacks when he becomes stronger to know for sure if he's a fire specialist.

[Mut]

it's been proven that sasuke is quite skilled with the fire element based ninjutsus. the earliest sign of this was when he used it on kakashi during the "survival training." kakashi was surprised by the fact that a genin was able to such higher skill.

OT: man, these discussions are weak. when is someone gonna come and say something extremely absurd or so outrageous and stick by it so we can *argue* like crazy.

the uchiha itachi discussion thread was the best one yet. damn, that was fun. =D

[Raven]

Yeah I miss the Uchiha Itachi Discussion days. Soon, very soon he will appear in the anime, and we'll get to do it all over again! Yaaaaaaaaaaay!

*tries to mentally prepare for all the new Itachi threads that will appear in the anime section*

[sangai]

i think i will be avoiding the naruto section for a while all the itachi fan boys will come out.

but the only reason i would venture there is to see if there is anyone who likes

Kisame hoshigake (favorite character)

[XwingRob]

LOL, I just had a very strange theory popped into my head.
Inner Sakura will defeat Itachi.
Its simple, Itachi attacks Team 7 while there doing some mission, Naruto and Sasuke are out of action due to Itachi's shranigan..and then tries to use it on Sakura but instead Inner Sakura suddenly appears inside of Itachi's mind and crushes him. LOL...I better get some sleep now.

[sangai]

..........

uh how about NO....

it would be funny for something to happen but then sasuke would just kill her for killing itachi.

[Mut]

inner sakura is the stupidest thing ever. i can't believe that was used to beat ino.

anyway, right before i fell asleep, i did a itachi vs jiraiya and gai fight in my head. itachi owned.

[Strider]

The truth of the matter is that the only reason Itachi is as good as he is .. is because he was watching Rock Lee train, for the past couple of years. Rock Lee's skills encouraged Itachi to train on his own to such extreme lengths, and now .. look at him. A Sharingan beast ..

.. But still nothing in comparison to the Proud Blue [Green?] Beast of Konoha. Wewt.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in the [above] comments are not the actual beliefs and thoughts of the insanity behind the basis of the [above] statements. However, factual evidence proves the awe-inspiringly amazing characteristics that composes the character of Rock Lee. Yet, insight as to Itachi's training background and/or possible affiliation to Rock Lee has yet been presented. Fin.

Haw haw .. Ninja vanish!

[Assertn]

i cant wait until the moment that itachi shows up in the anime and all the anime-only viewers in perfect synchronization will physically as well as metaphorically urinate themselves

it might even bring alot more members to the forum! i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[itachi_]

I think it will become troublesome, because we've had our discussions in the other forums for a really long time and most parts are clear for now.

[Gods_Son]

yea, but it'll be interesting to see what the anime people say, and how many of them go ape-shit over him. I read the original Uchiha Itachi thread, but never came and participated, it was still amusing though.

[staind]

i've been wandering about the fight between kakashi and itachi... something is kind of bothering me.

Since kakashi was using his sharigan against itachi, i wonder if he could have copied the mange sharigan, even though he might not be able to use it correctly, would he still be abel to teach it to sasuke?

That would give sasuke a big jump in skill and might help him catch up to itachi faster.

[Death BOO Z]

I really shouldn't dignify that one with an answer...

but still, here ya go.

the mengekyou sharingan is a movement done by the pupil alone, there aren't any seals involved, so i doubt that he'd be able to do it...

secondly, Kakashi was hit by that genjutsu, i don't think that in his 72 hours of torture he was really intersted in how it was done to him, exactly how Sasuke wasn't intersted in how the Lotus is done after the kick hit him...

so to make things short, NO.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: staind
i've been wandering about the fight between kakashi and itachi... something is kind of bothering me.

Since kakashi was using his sharigan against itachi, i wonder if he could have copied the mange sharigan, even though he might not be able to use it correctly, would he still be abel to teach it to sasuke?

That would give sasuke a big jump in skill and might help him catch up to itachi faster.

that would be fricken awesome!!!
Kakashi copying the mange sharingan!

I think this is very possible as why would Kakashi face Itachi knowing that he'd get pwned by this technique... it's cuz he's the COPY CAT MASTER - AND HE WANTS TO COPY IT! Remember how Itachi wanted to retreat before Kakashi copied their moves?? i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Yea i remember. So Kakashi went through the 72 hours of pain to learn this awesome shit! I'm going apeshit here! LIke you don't understand!

As for the hand seal thing, my theory is that there doesn't need to be a hand seal done. I think it's just a false rumor that Kakashi's letting people believe for his own protection. He did copy Rock's Gate opening *hint hint*.

But the problem now is - Kakashi isn't of "true sharingan blood." Whatever that means. But he CAN teach this to Sasuke ... perhaps. Or he can use a weakened version of it - maybe if he gets a transfusion done through Sasuke's corpse after Naruto beats the pulp out of him. We all know how much Kakashi loves scrapping Uchiha parts... @.@;

I'm just running with staind's idea here =). Someone prove me wrong.

[raijin]

As Death Boo Z mentioned, the Mangekyou Sharingan is a physical pupil ability and not a technique/jutsu. It's most likely the true manifestation of the Sharingan at its full potential, considering Itachi is said to be a Sharingan master. Kakashi can't copy physical traits, let alone another person's Advanced Bloodline technique. As Itachi mentions, Kakashi is not of the Uchiha Bloodline and can't use the Sharingan to its full potential... hence the reason he's exhausted after using it in his first encounter with Zabuza.

I'll reiterate it again, the Mangekyou Sharingan is most likely an advanced form of the Sharingan and not a technique which can be copied. Since, Sasuke is of the Uchiha Bloodline, he has the potential to use it as well.

[BakaShinji]

Ok, we know sharingan CAN copy Taijutsu (Sasuke on Lee)

"[mange] is a physical pupil ability and not a technique/jutsu..." - quoted from raijin

last time i looked it up ... ability~technique.
last time i looked it up ... physical~taijutsu. (~ means roughly equivalent to)

Note now..., Sharingan copies everything - not just taijutsu.

Naruto's Kage Bushin = Ninjutsu.
Zabuza pwnage = Genjutsu.
Rock Lee opening gates inside his body... i don't know what to call that (Uberjutsu?).

Now explain how an external spinning of the pupils can go unnoticed by Kakashi compared to Rock Lee's internal gate opening?

So questions about this "physical pupil ability"
Is this "physical" spinning different from taijutsu?

Even if it is different from Taijutsu - if it can be classified into any normal Gen/Nin/Tai, Kakashi can copy it. And by copy, I mean learn how it is done (not necessarily execute it, as I've stated in my unedited previous post).

If it isn't one of the three normal gen/nin/tai, Kakashi DID copy Lee's "uberjutsu" of the Gates - so what makes Mange special? Both are physical abilities - there is no mystical non-natural explanation.

Edit: About "advanced-bloodline" techniques... although this may be true that Kakashi can't perform the jutsu, he still can copy it - this possibility isn't ruled out by the "bloodline" limitations. Also Kakashi does have blood suitable for Uchiha's eyes, so it wouldn't be farfetched to say that Mange might be accessible by him as well.

This makes sense to me by the fact Kakashi dared to face this technique knowing its effects. He must have had a motive. He isn't stupid.

[staind]

....guys, chill out, i know he can't copy blood lines technieques, i'm just saying kakashi knows how it's done now, so he might be able to show sasuke... not that hard to understand? is it? Last time i checked, they did call him the 'copy-cat' ninja.... so he must be good at analyzing shit and understanding techniques even without the sharigan.


EDIT: thanks BakaShinji, i think you understood everything i was trying to say. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

[raijin]

The Mangekyou Sharingan is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability. With the Sharingan, Kakashi can't physically change his body. For example, if a person has green eyes, Kakashi can't make his eyes turn green with the Sharingan.

Taijutsu is basicaly the movement of your body, hence the reason why the Sharingan can copy it... it's not a "physical" change of the body, just movement. And if you remember, Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza. And I'll say it again, Kakashi is not of the Uchiha Bloodline, and probably can't use the Mangekyou Sharingan.

[BakaShinji]

Glad you stopped trying to defend Mange by saying it's taijutsu - if so the argument would have been over =).

"[mange] is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability" - raijin
This is conjecture. Are you saying it's like kimimaro's bone morphing ability? Or Haku's Demonic Ice ability? If it is - then it would make no sense that it does psychological harm (like it did to kakashi). All bloodline limits we have seen do physical harm.

Because of this key difference (psychological vs physical harm), I say mange's genjutsu - and I'm sure most people would agree. I'm going to regret saying this, but Ino's mind attack is similiar to Mange; except it's much feebler and way way way way weeker.. (don't kill me Itachi freaks!). Ino's ability is genjutsu so it would naturally follow that mange's genjutsu.

"Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza" - raijin
I thought Zabuza said that to Kakashi? Well, we know Kakashi likes to play down his abilities. (i.e. the need to see hand seals for techniques - he copy's Rock's gates).

So yea, just to make sure we're on the same page - this is what I'm saying.

Kakashi, being of "suitable blood" for Uchiha eyes, copied the method of using Mange Sharingan - although his ability to use this learned technique is yet to be determined.

-leading evidence for this:
1. Itachi said to Kisami his fear of having their jutsu's copied by Kakashi
2. Kakashi actually facing mange knowing the effects of it

Someone bring some counters for these points please =).

[Assertn]

if itachi knows that kakashi can copy jutsus......then why would he reveal one of his most advanced jutsus to him? obviously itachi would know more about the sharingan than anyone else to know whether or not it would be a good idea to use it on another sharingan user

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Glad you stopped trying to defend Mange by saying it's taijutsu - if so the argument would have been over =).

"[mange] is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability" - raijin
This is conjecture. Are you saying it's like kimimaro's bone morphing ability? Or Haku's Demonic Ice ability? If it is - then it would make no sense that it does psychological harm (like it did to kakashi). All bloodline limits we have seen do physical harm.

Because of this key difference (psychological vs physical harm), I say mange's genjutsu - and I'm sure most people would agree. I'm going to regret saying this, but Ino's mind attack is similiar to Mange; except it's much feebler and way way way way weeker.. (don't kill me Itachi freaks!). Ino's ability is genjutsu so it would naturally follow that mange's genjutsu.

"Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza" - raijin
I thought Zabuza said that to Kakashi? Well, we know Kakashi likes to play down his abilities. (i.e. the need to see hand seals for techniques - he copy's Rock's gates).

So yea, just to make sure we're on the same page - this is what I'm saying.

Kakashi, being of "suitable blood" for Uchiha eyes, copied the method of using Mange Sharingan - although his ability to use this learned technique is yet to be determined.

-leading evidence for this:
1. Itachi said to Kisami his fear of having their jutsu's copied by Kakashi
2. Kakashi actually facing mange knowing the effects of it

Someone bring some counters for these points please =).
Well, first off, I never said the Mangekyou Sharingan was taijutsu or even compared it to taijutsu.

It seems with the Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi is capable of using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. They're techniques that he is capable of using with the special eye. And, Ino's technique is a ninjutsu, not genjutsu. She's projecting actual spiritual energy at an opponent, she's not making an illusion.

Reread or watch the Zabuza and Kakashi fight, Kakashi does mention that he can't copy Haku's Demonic Ice Mirrors.

As far as I remember, Kisame and Itachi never have a conversation concerning Kakashi copying their abilities. Kisame is surpised that Kakashi copied his technique and can use water clones, but that's it.

The only reason I believe Kakashi faced the Mangekyou Sharingan is that he believed he had a chance to withstand the technique. Itachi does mention that only a person with the Sharingan can withstand or defeat his genjutsu attack, so Kakashi most likely took a chance. If all three (Kakashi, Kurenai & Asuma) of them closed their eyes, they would have been sitting ducks. It appears that Gai is the only person to effectively fight against a person with the Sharingan by looking at their feet.

[Mut]

there isn't anything more to explain. kakashi cannot perform the mangekyou sharingan cuz he is not of uchiha blood. simple and done.

EDIT:


Originally posted by: BakaShinji
So we know Kakashi has similar blood.

facts plz.

[BakaShinji]

First point. Itachi was arrogant about "Being a true Sharingan Master" and saw Kakashi as a lowly wannabe, even with his similiar blood. So he was arrogant to use his ultimate ability.

So we know Kakashi has similar blood.
We only know that if you have Uchiha blood you can perform it. It doesn't rule out having "suitable blood".

It also says nothing about copying it.
There is a difference between - Performing and Copying (learning).



btw on a sidenote: DID anyone think Sasuke copied it, seeing how Itachi used it on him? haha - I completely overlooked this

[raijin]

It's not arrogant if it's the truth. And considering how easily he defeated Kakashi and Sasuke with his Sharingan, he further proves that point. Itachi mentions to Kisame that he didn't want to cause a commotion which would attract attention. If you want to win a battle quickly, you're not going to use mediocre techniques which the enemy is capable of countering or defeating, you're going to use something that an opponent has little or no chance against.

And for you statement concerning Kakashi copying Rock Lee opening the gates, this is just pure speculation. Considering Kakashi's knowledge of the 8 Gates, he probably already knew how to use them prior to the Lee and Gaara match. It seems the only reason he unveiled the Sharingan was to keep up with Lee's speed.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: raijin
And for you statement concerning Kakashi copying Rock Lee opening the gates, this is just pure speculation. Considering Kakashi's knowledge of the 8 Gates, he probably already knew how to use them prior to the Lee and Gaara match. It seems the only reason he unveiled the Sharingan was to keep up with Lee's speed.

not pure speculation.
kakashi uses kage bushin after he sees naruto do it, on the bridge.
kakashi uses his gates after he sees rock lee do it while rock climbing.
kakashi will use mange sharingan to rip itachi a new one (i believe oro gave kakashi the scar but itachi is my #2 man... *this is another argument).



Originally posted by: raijin
Itachi mentions to Kisame that he didn't want to cause a commotion which would attract attention.
Funny how you ignore the part where Itachi talks about his fear of Kakashi copying all his jutsus...


Originally posted by: raijin
If you want to win a battle quickly, you're not going to use mediocre techniques which the enemy is capable of countering or defeating, you're going to use something that an opponent has little or no chance against.
No. Not true. This is contrary to the entire Naruto series foolish foolish man. Every battle we have seen has been built up from the most rudimentary skills: curse seal levels, summons, berserkers.

C'mon how fucking boring would Naruto be if
Hokage went ... "guess what oro, we're skipping the entertaining playing around, I'm ending this with Fuujin right now."
or
Kakashi went "f-u Zabuza, eat raikiri NOW"
or
Naruto went "grurururur .... nine-tails .. gururururu" (ok kage bushin's suck, maybe Naruto should do this).
or
Sasuke went "Chidori in yo face mutha fucka Gaaraaaa..."
or
Haku went "ice mirrors and end this shit."
or
"Favorite sound nin" - "lvl 2 seal weeeeeee..."
and this list goes on and on...

Edit: OK enough mudslinging... so back to the task at hand
Kakashi copied Mange. We yet to see him perform it. (and now I'm thinking Sasuke probably too). Itachi got arrogant with his ability, and busted it out on Kakashi because he didn't think Kakashi will be able to do it. I might be spoiling some really awesome Kishimoto storyline - but I'm calling it right now - KAKASHI WILL MANGE SOMEONE!!!

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
EDIT:


Originally posted by: BakaShinji
So we know Kakashi has similar blood.

facts plz.

from what I remember Itachi "Your blood is suitable for that eye."
then he goes off "let me show you the ability of the true sharingan masters "

my memory may be off. someone wanna check?

[Gods_Son]

Itachi used the Mange Sharingan to show Kakashi the Sharingan's true abilities. Kakashi may be suitable for the Sharingan, but he cannot inherit the full abilities of the bloodline with the eye alone. You cannot copy a jutsu that's beyond your level. Sasuke doesn't have a fully developed Sharingan and Kakashi isn't a true Uchiha, neither of them can perform the technique as of now.

v no, I read the same version as you v

[Mut]

i might have a different version than you guys. mine says:

itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...

and he also said:

itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.

baka, plz don't double post.

[raijin]

How do you know that Kakashi did not know how to use Kage Bunshin before Naruto? Kage Bunshin is a Jounin Level skill, Kakashi most likely learned it before Naruto did. Hayate does Kage Bunshin during his "Dance of the Crescent Moon" and he's a Special Jounin.

So what if Kakashi used the Gate(s) after Rock Lee? That doesn't prove anything. Kakashi is not a jounin for nothing, like I mentioned before, he probably knew how to perform the Gate techniques prior to watching Lee. Whether or not he can actually copy "Gate Opening" is still questionable.



Funny how you ignore the part where Itachi talks about his fear of Kakashi copying all his jutsus...
I already addressed this statement in a previous post, and as far as I know, this was never stated. Provide the chapter and page # and I'll check.

All the fights you mentioned involved high class techniques.

If you want to believe that Kakashi copied Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan go ahead, I'm just presenting my side of the arguement. But, as far as I'm concerned, he didn't.

[RangeOfHakke]

ok some of you guys actually have brains but some of you are just idiots. I dont know where you pull some of this crap out from....kakashi actually needing lee or naruto to copy jitsus from. Kakashi was pimp before those two were itches in their daddies pants. Now listen up and listen good, i never want to hear this bull again. Kakashi knew about gates before he saw lee do them...he explained all about them to sakura and everyone else was there....do you guys forget that kakashi and Gai have faught like a bijillion times...do you not think he saw this from him or from some one else. Kakashi has been everwhere before this series we know so little about him. Almost every jounin knows kage bushin no jitsu...naruto is jsut lucky he learned it. I cant believe you guys think kakashi learned these techniques from those two kids. Kakashi was one of the best ninja that every lived, he knows tons of crap. Kakashi knows how to do gates long before lee...and he did not learn it from him. on the cliff he did not open a gate, i want to slap who ever was the first person to say that. He focoused chakra and gave himself a boost...the first gate gives way more then just a boost. Do you realyl think the pimpist ninja really had to copy kage bushin from naruto!?!??!?!?! And lastly it did not matter if kakashi did copy the mange shiringan from itachi because he cant use it...he does not have uchida blood that is why he cant shut shiringan off. He cant fully control it, only the true bloodline can do it...and dont give me similar blood crap he does not have the blood he needs to do it. Kakashi can copy genjitsu...itachi was arrogant in showing him because he knows even he kakashi copyed it he could not use it do to his lack of uchida blood. But if you understand what really happened there you would get it, kakashi knows he never had a chance against the true sharingan. He had a purpose in goind through the pain for 72 hours. he copied it for saske. Not so he could just teach it to him, but use it as a form of control. He knows saske is constantly tempted to seak power. The only way he can keep saske under control and away from evil would be to intice him with something. There is no easy way out in anything, he knows the curse seal will just lead saske down a dark path. He sacrificed himself so he could teach saske later, unfortunatly saske is weakminded and ran off....this will all come about later....i hope i cleared everything up.

[Mut]

lol wow. 4th post and i already like this guy.

you get TWO thumbs up! *WINK* i/expressions/beer.gif

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: RangeOfHakke
Kakashi knows how to do gates long before lee...and he did not learn it from him. on the cliff he did not open a gate, i want to slap who ever was the first person to say that. He focoused chakra and gave himself a boost...the first gate gives way more then just a boost.

Correction. Before Lee he knew WHAT they were. not HOW to open them.
First gate gives way more than just a boost? Well why the fuck would Lee need to open five for just one simple Taijutsu move? What did the first gate do? Well here's a quote from episode 49.
"It unfastens the control of the brain, and enables a person to use his muscles at their limits."
Now how does this relate to Kakashi? It zoomed in on his fucking brain and made it all buzz up and shit - so he had the energy to over come his cliff with one fucking arm.
Where is the first gate according to "Gai" in episode 49. WOW IN THE FUCKING BRAIN!

Second point. Ok, say what you're saying is right Kakashi knows all about Gates before Lee does it. Does that fucking mean he knows all about Mange when he explains it to Asuma and Kurenai what Mange might do if they look in his eyes? NO IT DOES NOT. Otherwise Kakashi knows Mange Sharingan as well as the Gates since "before those two were itches in their daddies pants".



Originally posted by: RangeOfHakke
Do you realyl think the pimpist ninja really had to copy kage bushin from naruto!?!??!?!?!
Yes I do. Episode 8 we see Naruto do his Kage Buushin at 18:45. It's a face off between him and Zabuza. Then, out of nowhere at 18:51 it shows a lone picture of Kakashi (only Kakashi, the anime didn't show any other character's shocked faces) with BOTH of his eyes wide open watching Naruto do this jutsu. Subtle hint for you idiots... HINT. Does the anime have to have a thought bubble "ok, this is enough time for kakashi to copy jutsu here" for you to understand?



Originally posted by: RangeOfHakkehe copied it for saske.
Ok. This is the one point I agree with you Range. Thank you for being the sole support thus far - besides staind. And you're right about not having the Uchiha blood. Itachi had said Kakashi had the right body, but "it does not contain any of our blood." Well ... a transfusion can still before performed. So there is still hope.



Originally posted by: RangeOfHakke
before... before .... before ....
Ok one more shot on Range before I move on to Raijin's comment. Kakashi knew about buushin and gates before. But did he ever perform them? Chronological fact from the story is NO. Kakashi PERFORMS abilities AFTER he was exposed to them. You have no evidence to say that he could PERFORM them before. All you can say is that he "knew of them" prior.



Originally posted by: raijin
"Hayate does Kage Bunshin during his "Dance of the Crescent Moon"
Hell no he didn't. If Hayate did, the buushins would have done damage instead of forcing Hayate to jump down and make an actual blow from above. And only 3 buushins from a jounin? HAHA. Naruto can do 100 without Kyuubi. It was a totally different jutsu seeing how it gained praise from the Sand Nin.

Dammit - I'm getting worked up over a fucking cartoon! I can't believe it! This is great!

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Correction. Before Lee he knew WHAT they were. not HOW to open them.
First gate gives way more than just a boost? Well why the fuck would Lee need to open five for just one simple Taijutsu move? What did the first gate do? Well here's a quote from episode 49.
"It unfastens the control of the brain, and enables a person to use his muscles at their limits."
Now how does this relate to Kakashi? It zoomed in on his fucking brain and made it all buzz up and shit - so he had the energy to over come his cliff with one fucking arm.
Where is the first gate according to "Gai" in episode 49. WOW IN THE FUCKING BRAIN!

this is just an assumption, you have no concrete evidence to back this up.



Second point. Ok, say what you're saying is right Kakashi knows all about Gates before Lee does it. Does that fucking mean he knows all about Mange when he explains it to Asuma and Kurenai what Mange might do if they look in his eyes? NO IT DOES NOT. Otherwise Kakashi knows Mange Sharingan as well as the Gates since "before those two were itches in their daddies pants".

this is also nothing but an assumption without anything to back it up with.



Yes I do. Episode 8 we see Naruto do his Kage Buushin at 18:45. It's a face off between him and Zabuza. Then, out of nowhere at 18:51 it shows a lone picture of Kakashi (only Kakashi, the anime didn't show any other character's shocked faces) with BOTH of his eyes wide open watching Naruto do this jutsu. Subtle hint for you idiots... HINT. Does the anime have to have a thought bubble "ok, this is enough time for kakashi to copy jutsu here" for you to understand?

this is an another assumption. why do you just assume that he copied it just because he looked at naruto with both of his eyes? Subtle hint for you, idiot... HINT. Ever think that kakashi was just in a battle and didn't bother covering up his eye? OH WOW, MAYBE THIS HAPPENED. MAYBE IT DIDN'T AND YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. anyway, how does this explain that he didn't know it before and he learned it from naruto? isn't it more feasible that a highly skilled ninja would know a jutsu like kage bunshin?



Ok one more shot on Range before I move on to Raijin's comment. Kakashi knew about buushin and gates before. But did he ever perform them? Chronological fact from the story is NO. Kakashi PERFORMS abilities AFTER he was exposed to them. You have no evidence to say that he could PERFORM them before. All you can say is that he "knew of them" prior.

so, what is your evidence to back up the statement "he learned it from lee and naruto?" just the fact that it happened in that chronological order doesn't prove anything. what you said is just an assumption.

so in conclusion, you have no concrete evidence to back up what you're saying and you are a fucking dumbass for acting like the smartass you tried to be.

[BakaShinji]

"this is just an assumption, you have no concrete evidence to back this up."
Ok ... presenting events that happen in the story is not evidence? Do you think I'm lying and making these events up? Do you even watch Naruto?

I'm presenting these events AS evidence.

"this is also nothing but an assumption without anything to back it up with."
This is not an assumption. I am drawing a parallel to the nub's line of evidence. I hope you recognized that.

Range says "Kakashi knew about Gate/Buushin before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
by that same logic
I'm saying "ok, so Kakashi knew about Mange before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
I don't think fans would agree with this.

"this is an another assumption. why do you just assume that he copied it just because he looked at naruto with both of his eyes? Subtle hint for you, idiot... HINT. Ever think that kakashi was just in a battle and didn't bother covering up his eye? OH WOW, MAYBE THIS HAPPENED. MAYBE IT DIDN'T AND YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. anyway, how does this explain that he didn't know it before and he learned it from naruto? isn't it more feasible that a highly skilled ninja would know a jutsu like kage bunshin?"

#1. The manga doesn't have this scene with Kakashi watching. (Kishimoto assumes manga readers will realize this)
#2. The anime does show a scene WITH ONLY KAKASHI watching. No flash to any other onlookers.
In conclusion the producers fucking want the watchers to realize WOW - KAKASHI IS WATCHING, since 5 year olds need everything explained to them.


In the end Kakashi copying is something that I am drawing from these pieces of evidence.
I agree evidence is far from concrete, but it IS evidence - so don't brush it off as conjecture/assumption.

Evidence for your points on the otherhand, is merely... "Kakashi's 1337 so he must've known it all".

So balance the two. Are you going to ignore chronological events/good story telling/obvious insinuations and go with "kakashi's 1337"? Gimme a break.

[Mut]

*i didn't want to post in an IM convo way, but i have to, sorry*



Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Ok ... presenting events that happen in the story is not evidence? Do you think I'm lying and making these events up? Do you even watch Naruto?

you didn't even understand what i meant by concrete evidence. i'm asking how you can determine that (example here: ) if kakashi did copy or not when he looked with both eyes. how do you know he did? what if kakashi just looked and him and nothing more? and are you kidding me when you ask if i watch naruto? don't ask such stupid questions.



So balance the two. Are you going to ignore chronological events/good story telling/obvious insinuations and go with "kakashi's 1337"? Gimme a break.

anyway, you said something clever here. "Are you going to ignore ... obvious insinuations ... ?"

aren't YOU doing this by assuming that a high skilled jounin like kakashi had to learn it from the genins, naruto and lee? think about this.

i'm not saying that kakashi knew it before or not. i'm just saying that what you are saying has no concrete evidence. just because something *looked* like it happened, that doesn't mean it did or didn't.

and this:


Range says "Kakashi knew about Gate/Buushin before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
by that same logic
I'm saying "ok, so Kakashi knew about Mange before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
I don't think fans would agree with this.

yeah, it would be something like that with that logic, but too bad it doesn't work since it's a known fact that only a uchiha can perform the mangekyou sharingan.

also this:


#1. The manga doesn't have this scene with Kakashi watching. (Kishimoto assumes manga readers will realize this)

ohhh...so kishimoto assumes that the manga reader will realize this... i see how it is. can you tell me how you know that kishimoto assumed this? if you're gonna say that "well, it's pretty obvious because of what we've seen so far" then don't bother replying back because that doesn't mean shit.



#2. The anime does show a scene WITH ONLY KAKASHI watching. No flash to any other onlookers.

tell me where it is CLEAR, CRYSTAL CLEAR, that kakashi is copying it with his sharingan. don't tell me that it's "obvious" cuz he is looking with both eyes cuz YOU don't know if he is copying it or not. only kishimoto knows.

everything i've quoted in my previous post is just your opinions or assumptions, nothing more. i'm not agreeing to anything about kakashi copying or not copying. i'm just saying, don't post things and say them as if they're facts when they're really not.

EDIT: i know what i say won't get through to you, so i'm just waiting for someone to come in on this.

[Death BOO Z]

if we're talking about Kakashi's copying skills, i have a few cents' of my own.

I don't believe we've seen Kakashi copying anty jutsu yet

why?

lets go through all the copies he could have done.

KageBunshin: most elite ninjas know how to do this (Hokage, orochimaru, probably the two ANBU who're watching the fight), so it's safe to assume that Kakashi also knows it, he just looked at Naruto doing the Kage Bunshin and decided to scare the guys at the bridge with a normal Bunshin.

Gates: i don't believe it's copyable, but i won't be suprised if Kakashi can open one or two, and Gai can open three or four.

Water clone and other water jutsus: this one is tricky, it might seem that Kakashi copied the moves but i believe he knew them all along, the fact is that he used a water jutsu before Zabuza managed to do it (to make Zabuza believe Kakashi can read into the future and copy from there), so i believe that even saying that he copied the water clone was just part of his "dance". i'm also reinforced by the fact Kakashi recogniezed the exploding water clone before it went BOOM.

Mengekyou Sharingan: I don't think he's capeable of it, but it's entierly speculations..

That's my 2 cents, feel free to leave comments

[RangeOfHakke]

Mut@t@ has to be like either my hero or just the only person i totaly respect on this forum right now. I just read all the stuff after my post and started to pull my hair out(excluding the stuff from Mut@t@
, and death boo z cause these two have brains yay for brains!!!). First BakaShinji you cant believe how stupid you sound, saying how since kakashi was staring at naruto and was all suprised that mUUUUssst mean that he was copying the kage bushin. hmmmmm lets think about this for a moment....WRONG! so are you telling me that when naruto first did kage bushin no jitsu and iruka sensei was looking at him all surprised that he must of been also copying it..o0o0o0o wait i think everyone that saw naruto do it and was surprised started copying it...hell maybe if you were staring at me and i did kage bushin no jitsu you would copy it from seeing me do it to. No idiot he was staring at him cause narutoo0o0 is a genin and how the hell did he learn how to do kage bushin no jitsu. He was amazed, shocked, and blown away that a dropout like naruto could do that. I cant wait to see what you got to say to that one.

ok when you did your cute little rebuttal to my statement about the gates...you were wrong once again. Kakashi was jsut focusing chakra like he showed naruto and saske and sakura how to do...he put his hand in front of his face and focused his energy, when did you ever see lee put his hand in front of his face and focuse in order to open the 1st gate...thats right never. And you completly bypassed my point how kakashi probably definatly learned the gates from Gai...who he has fought many times before. but all in all BakaShinji that was not the best part to what you said....when you stated how i said that kakashi knew about the gates so intern he knew how to do them(first thats not what i said i said he probably knew them cause he fought Gai manytimes...idiot dont make up things that i did not say) you used that point to some how make me look dumb(which is not possible) by saying that o0o0o0o that means since he knew about mange sharingan that means he must of knew how to do it all along....are you serious???!??!?!?!? are you sure your not on drugs, when the hell did i ever freaking say that???? you are so stupid and i jsut want to scream i cant believe you wrote that statement...i read it then laughed then read it again and was dumbfounded how you could be so brain dead. I never said any of that. So making up something i said then using that to prove your dumbass mange sharingan point was....well....retarted for lack of better words. go get some common sense before you post here again.

Mut@t@ im srry bout the anger in this post none of it is towards you.

[Raven]

Mut@t@/dazzz and Death BOO Z just owned this thread. The Kage Boushin is a Jounin level technique, there's every chance in the world that Kakashi knew it long before Naruto was even born. To say that he would bother copying it from his lowly gennin student is just idiocy.

I'm not even gonna bother with the gates thing, you can't "copy" a physical change in your body which is what opening the gates is. That thing on the mountain wasn't a gate opening, he was just concentrating extra hard for assistance in climbing the rest of the way.

I could go on, but dazzz and DBZ have covered everything.

BTW DBZ, I think it was Kage Boushin that Kakashi used to scare the guys at the bridge, not a regular boushin.

[BakaShinji]

"he put his hand in front of his face and focused his energy, when did you ever see lee put his hand in front of his face and focuse in order to open the 1st gate...thats right never" - Range
1. You're right, Lee doesn't ever put his hand in front of his face. But from what I remember, Kakashi had one arm tied behind his back and his 2nd arm holding the fucking cliff. So what? His third arm was in front of his face? Yea.... okay.... sounds plausible....

2. Secondly, if he was focusing his chakra - why does it zoom in on a close-up of his "brain" - where the first gate happens to be? If it was just his chakra - shouldn't it have been to his arm, the body part that needed energy to lift him from the cliff?

3. Third, point, I didn't address before - not because I'm ignoring it. But I felt this was a little story-telling made by you. Kakashi fought Gai many times, I'll give you that. But it IS conjecture that Gai even used the gates on Kakashi. But we KNOW Lee USED the gates.
So ask yourself this ... What is more likely...
A. Kakashi might have copied the gates from Gai in the past from an event that we have NOT even seen occur. Or
B. Kakashi might as well have copied the gates from Lee, an event that we KNOW did occur?

And everyone here needs to clarify this. Knowing OF, Knowing HOW, and being able to PERFORM all THREE DIFFERENT THINGS!
For example:
Kakashi knows OF Mange Sharingan before he met Itachi in the manga.
Kakashi is likely to know HOW to work Mange Sharingan after copying it (assuming he did it for Sasuke's ongoing education).
Kakashi CAN to perform Mange, if he had Uchiha blood.

And from Death BOO z:
Hokage, Orochimaru, 2 ANBU knowing Kage Buushin.
#1. Hokage yes, He is the "professor of shinobi's" and came before the time of the 4ths forbidden scroll. He performs it during Fuujin. Yes you're right.
#2. Hell no! Orochimaru does his weird ass mud buushins. Never Kage Buushin. His buushin's have never attacked for damage.
#3. Hell no again. Does every person who say "oooo, kage buushin, that's a nice skill" have the ability to pull it off? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to "knowing of, knowing how, and being able to perform" points. Sakura said "oo, kage buushin is cool" - she knows OF it, can she do it? - NO.

And finally from MATATA:
"tell me where it is CLEAR, CRYSTAL CLEAR, that kakashi is copying it with his sharingan. don't tell me that it's "obvious" cuz he is looking with both eyes cuz YOU don't know if he is copying it or not. only kishimoto knows."
Ok. This is a stretch. Tell me why the anime producers decided to show Kakashi watching Naruto perform Kage Buushin against Zabuza when it wasn't shown in the manga. This to me is an obvious sign that the producers wanted the viewers to realize Kakashi has his Sharingan eyes peeled - and he saw what Naruto did. Watchers of the anime is a younger audience, and the manga readers are an older audience. Doesn't it seem odd, that the animators made it a specific point to show that Kakashi was watching with his Sharingan - while it was a tacit point in the manga?

Meanwhile, your case of him getting it elsewhere goes like this:
"We have never see Kakashi copy it anywhere else or perform it prior to this event. We have no information to lead us to believe he has ever seen this ability. But I think he did know it somehow, somewhere, sometime before because, don't forget, he's just too crazy a mofo jounin not to." Yes that convinced me... totally. My points against this:
1. 4th hokage bans kage buushin. Ok, Kakashi was a young lad. Maybe he copied it before the 4th banned it, since he was a 1337 little ninja.
2. But WAIT, Kakashi didn't have his sharingan eye until sasuke was 7-8. Oh shite....

Well, I'm not drawing any conclusions for anybody here. Make up your own mind on this one.

Added/Edited here:
Commented by Range:
"No idiot he was staring at him cause narutoo0o0 is a genin and how the hell did he learn how to do kage bushin no jitsu. He was amazed, shocked, and blown away that a dropout like naruto could do that. I cant wait to see what you got to say to that one. "
"idiot shinji" please. How am I going to get by this one? Ok let me try. Let's start with your analysis of Kakashi's emotions. You must have graduate from mind-reader school or something. amazed... shocked... and blown away.... all emotions you saw in that one second clip of Kakashi trapped inside of a water bubble. That's pretty good. But as good as you are making guesses about character emotions, I'm making guesses about Kishimoto's emotions about plot telling. Kakashi was shocked... (consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this) ok. Kakashi was amazed (again consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this)... ok. Kakashi was blown away (and one last time consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this) ok... Adding Kakashi was copying Naruto's jutsu wouldn't be a stretch - seeing how I'm drawing from multiple sources of evidence, not just one scene with Kakashi in a bubble. I'm saying simply if you can guess Kakashi's emotions from one scene, I'm guessing that Kakashi copied Naruto's jutsu analyzing all contextual events - mainly the fact that Zabuza, Naruto, Kakashi were like in their own little world at the end of episode 9. And the fact that the manga doesn't contain this odd scene with Kakashi watching a year ago. It is a well known fact that the anime adds scenes and removes scenes in its effort to ease and smoothen out the storying telling process.
/end edit

Btw MATATA: I have confidence that the readers here know that events I present are facts. And the conclusions I draw are not. I'm building a theory - not writing a bible. Building my theory I present facts that support. Outside of the poor job this thread is doing with a negative case against my theory, you've done nothing for your own positive case to support your own theories. Wuteva - this positive/negative thing might be a bit hard to understand.

Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

Edit part II: btw. I like how when I reread the previous posts. People like to cover their tracks by changing their comments. I thought it was ettiquite to leave them the way they are and correct ourselves in subsequent posts. Way to go people! I can feel that moral fiber evaporating from your spineless bodies.

[Elessar]

Alright, there has already been said a lot. Some words of wisdom, some of ...well, not wisdom.

Let's start with the easy things first:

two [2] thumbs up for Mut@t@, RangeOfHakke and Death BOOZ
big THANK YOU to Opera Software ASA for the "Notes" feature in the Opera 7 browser. This post wouldn't be possible without it (a highly developed and integrated notepad so to speak)

<u>1. Manga Version/Quotes Confusion</u>
There was a confusion on what Itachi said. Reason: there are two different versions circulating:
early volumes: Toriyama's World // AK of Troy -- high quality
middle: various scanlations of questionable quality
late: Inane -- high quality
The situation is described in a chapter of the middle parts. Some of these volumes (3 or 4) were redone by Inane, but the release did at no point get huge attention. Even most Fansites were not aware of them. I now that for sure because I caused the manga archive of i thnk narutochuushin and narutofan to be updated during a discussion concerning "The Mist's 7 Swords" in this very forum.

What BakaShinJi said (similar blood) is the early, questionable version. Mut@t@'s quotes are made out of the Inane release.
Personally, I go with Inane, but a little inaccuracy through translation can't be avoided. Always keep that in mind.

<u>2. A Rant About Advanced Bloodlines:</u>
according to Kakashi he can't copy them due to his lack of the needed physics
a bloodline is a genetical lineage, not a blood type. You can't aquire it through blood transfusion
you and esp. Sharingan user can to some extent analyze them, but to fully understand the way they work they would need to know and understand the genetical differences their effects

This leads me to the following conclusions:
Kakashi might have gathered some information about Tsukiyomi, but in no way we can speak of a copy. That would require Kakashi to understand concepts that you have to be born into. But it is quite safe that he might be able to give some hints to Sasuke. All three in that situation doing nothing would have killed them all, so what had to be done is: (a) survive (b) gather information for later use (c) keep him busy in the hope for help.
Kakashi as konoha's #1 technician and only one who might survive Tsukijomi did what he had to do as a konoha shinobi. If Sasuke returns and there is the need for it, he will give Sasuke the information he gathered to save the village. Afterall, he is anly a tool of konoha.

<u>3. The Mangekyou Sharingan:</u>
we know the sharingan develops with time: 1 dot ==&gt; 2 dots ==&gt; 3 dots
Sasuke awakens his sharingan during a fight
Itachi wants to wait until some hidden functionality fully awakens

So I think considering the Mangekyou Sharingan as another (the highest?) development form of the sharingan is a safe assumption. Itachi gives credit to Kakashi because of the level to which he can utilize the sharingan he has. But his sharingan is frozen in his development as he misses the lineage. Like he cannot shut it down, he can only train and learn to use it's current status to his best abilities. It can't evolve anymore.
Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are jutsus bound to that development status of the sharingan. That is why Kakashi can't perform them and only one of Itachi's blood can counter it. Because Kakashi's is frozen and only a true Uchiha can develop it to that extent.

<u>4. Kakashi copying Kage Bunshin no Jutsu from Naruto:</u>
3rd Hokage ===&gt; Jiraiya ===&gt; 4th Hokage ===&gt; Kakashi
Kakashi is at the moment konoha's #1 technician
Kakashi is famous enough in the world of Naruto to be one of the shinobis that is warned of in other countries handbooks
Kakashi copied more than 1'000 jutsus throughout his missions
Kage Bunshin is explained in a classified scroll, but a classified document is everywhere obtainable to higher ups
Kage Bunshin is a jounin level jutsu
the two chuunins in the finals knew about it
Iruka knew about it
Shinobis from other countries knew about shadow clones but weren't too sure. It is a powerful jutsu and it's knowledge is a military advantage for konoha. Therefor it is classified so that it can't be easily obtained by enemy forces (common military sense)

Let's sum that up: Kakashi is a jounin and one of the top elite shinobis but does not know a jounin jutsu of his own country? He copied over 1'000 jutsus but only enemy ones, never the very handy Kage Bunshin from his allies? The 4th trains a highly skilled new shinobi but doesn't train him all he knows? No.

Now the scene were Kakashi watches Naruto.... First, he wasn't shocked in awe. Kakashi and all the others from team 7 knew about Naruto's ability to create shadowclones after the survival training. Yet the above is still valid, it is safe to assume that he already knew it. The reason why he watched Naruto, well, there are three newbie genins, a customer of his village, a S ranked criminal and he is inside a water prison. In order to save his villages reputation, the genins who he is responsible for and his own life he has to watch the genins actions carefully in order to find an opening in Zabuza's defense to free himself. Doing that with closed eyes isn't an easy task, even with the sharingan.

Conclusion: Kakashi did not copy the kage bunshin from Naruto

<u>5. Naruto Can Pull Out 100 Shadowclones Without Using The Kyubi Chakra:</u>
as Jiraiya says, the seal is made in a way that it merges with his chakra constantly and increases his chakra amount and gives fast regeneration
the red kyubi chakra is a second chakra source beneath his normal one in that he boasts the limits of the normal merge process and gains more than normally would merge
he pulls a decent number of clones in the forest after Orochimaru seals him up

The conclusions I draw:
even if he did that with a sealed chakra source, his huge stamina is still kyubi. Constant effects change people. The human body adopts to it. His huge stamina is the outcome of a life under the influence of the nine tails. I doubt he would be able to pull these amounts of clones after being sealed for more than a year. But this questions remains to a certain degree.

<u>6. Kakashi Copied The Gates From Rock Lee:</u>
the gates are a forbidden art
forbidden arts are teached as a last joker (Gai/Lee: Gates, Orochimaru/Anko: Suicide)
Gai can be called an elite Jounin of Konoha (taijutsu master)
Gai knows the gates as he teached them to his group
besides the fact that only Lee was able to do it, Gai's complete team knows the concepts behind the gates
Kakashi knows about the gates as he explains them to the other genins
Kakashi is an elite Konoha Jounin (#1 ...)
Kakashi and Gai are rivals and fought a lot against each other. Also they fought at high levels including their trump cards as Gai is familiar with Kakashi's sharingan
Kakashi and Gai still show excellent team work when needed

Conclusions:
An important assumption: I think Kakashi and Gai did not anly fight but also train with each other. In particular, Kakashi trained to use his sharingan with Gai after obtaining it and they worked on the chidori together. Testing it against Gai's speed is the best test known so far.
Also to fight effectively at each others side, you have to know your mate's capabilities.
So the first point is that Kakashi has seen Gai using the gates to (a) training them for Gai (b) learning to handle enemies using them for Kakashi. The second point is that in a total war shinobis capable of using them in desparate situations to give their force an advantage are highly valuable weapon and only a few are able to open them (1 out of 3 in Gai's Team). So I assume that the gates are learned to a broad spectrum of shinobi to see who can use them and later on teach them. If Kakashi wasn't able to open them at that time, he won't be able to do so now. Lee or not.
Third point: the #1 technician of the village learning a jutsu from a genin is against all common sense.

<u>7. Kakashi Opening A Gate To Climb The Mountain:</u>
the anime shows a brain
the manga does not
focus one's mind is rather simple
the initial lotus is rather complicated, only few are capable of doing so
the initial lotus is the so far only known way to forcefully open gate one

Conclusion:
Kakashi did not open the first gate. If it would be that simple, everybody would do so. Opening it by just a flick of your mind gives a big surprise monumontum in a fight, other than the lotus. Also thinking "sesame open" isn't that forcefully.

7.1
"Kakashi knew about Gate/Buushin before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
"So Kakashi knew about Mange before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."

True.
Were did Kakashi learn about the Gates? It is a well known forbidden art that is taught in Konoha.
Were did he learn about MaSha? Either in researches about the sharingan or from his often referenced Uchiha friend. Can safelfy be assumed as a well protected Clan secret.
Why didn't he perform them?
Because he didn't meet the physical requirements to open a gate, so to say the lack of it.
Remember, the MaSha is a development stadium of a blood heritage and can't be performed. Performed is the Tsukijomi.

<u>8.</u>
Water clone and other water jutsus: this one is tricky, it might seem that Kakashi copied the moves but i believe he knew them all along, the fact is that he used a water jutsu before Zabuza managed to do it (to make Zabuza believe Kakashi can read into the future and copy from there), so i believe that even saying that he copied the water clone was just part of his "dance". i'm also reinforced by the fact Kakashi recogniezed the exploding water clone before it went BOOM.

Very good one. We know he copied a truckload of jutsus before. Not letting your enemy know that you already know that jutsu but make him believe that you copied it from him right now gives you a tremendous psychological advantage. I totally agree with this.



Got a little longer than planned, sorry. Thanks to all who read till here.

Edit: this doesn't address BakaShinJi's last post as it wasn't written yet. This was written after Cmdr_Raven. Will read it later on and comment on it.

[BakaShinji]

1. Mange quotes and confusion.
I'm going with Inane. In my post above, after reading my Inane version, I agree Itachi referred to the "body" not blood.

2. Bloodlines
This is what I'm saying.
Kakashi can't copy (perform them).
Kakashi can copy (learn the blueprint) and teach it.
-and the transfusion thing is my little blue hope. don't wreck it Elessar!!!

3. Mangekyou
I didn't know about the constand development and turning off thing before. But this makes sense. And it supports the theory that Kakashi can't pull off Mange. And I find myself more agreeable to this fact.
But I still maintain he knows OF, and knows HOW it's done.

4. copying Kage Bushin from Naruto
- I still think he does copy it from Naruto.
- First of all, Orochimaru was trained under the 3rd like Jiraiya was. Jiraiya and Orochimaru have not performed Kage Buushin even though it comes in handy. In fact, orochimaru prefers his "kawarimi clay" over the use of buushins altogether. I would say the lineage of education about buushin is broken at this point.
- Between 4th =&gt; Kakashi, Kage buushin was banned. And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.
kakashi is #1 perhaps. But it does not mean he knows everything. Can all S class criminals perform Kage buushin even though they're in tons of handbooks shared by all countries? No - Orochimaru is a good example.
- The scroll isn't just classified. It is forbidden. No one can see it.
- Iruka knew about it. Ok, knowing and performing are different things, let me just reiterate that.

5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina.

6. Gates from Lee
- Yes. I think he did.
- It is a last joker. Even Gai made a rule never to perform it unless "protecting someone important."
- Gai knows the gates, but his ability to perform isn't certain - although I feel he probably does know it. He didn't plan on teaching his group the gates, until they could perform the first lotus - which Lee was the only one that accomplished.
- Gai and Kakashi are rivals. Lee and Neji are rivals. Was Lee going to tell Neji about his gates and his "move to defeat" him? No. That would seem to point that Gai wouldn't tell Kakashi either.
- Gai is familiar with Kakashi's sharingan because Kakashi lost an eye, I would be familiar with my friend's new glass eye.
- Yes they show excellent teamwork, but at the same time - they are specialists at what each individually does best.
- Technician will learn what he can whenever he can. He isn't picky about who he learns from. He's slick like that.

7. Climb the mountain
- focus one's mind would just be a picture of their face .. like:
Sakura does "kai"
Sasuke does "foot concentration to catch Kunai"
Naruto does same to his feet to water walk.
- Initial lotus is a forceful way to open gate one? I didn't know that - but I'll check...
- Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

8. Water clone
I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.

[raijin]

Ok one more shot on Range before I move on to Raijin's comment. Kakashi knew about buushin and gates before. But did he ever perform them? Chronological fact from the story is NO. Kakashi PERFORMS abilities AFTER he was exposed to them. You have no evidence to say that he could PERFORM them before. All you can say is that he "knew of them" prior.
Well, it's been mentioned before, but Kakashi is one of the Leaf's top ninjas. Why would he need to copy a Jounin level technique from Naruto? He doesn't. There is no chronological fact in your theory, just assumptions. Just because he saw Naruto perform Kage Bunshin, does not mean he copied it.


Second point. Ok, say what you're saying is right Kakashi knows all about Gates before Lee does it. Does that fucking mean he knows all about Mange when he explains it to Asuma and Kurenai what Mange might do if they look in his eyes? NO IT DOES NOT. Otherwise Kakashi knows Mange Sharingan as well as the Gates since "before those two were itches in their daddies pants".
Kakashi just tells Asuma and Kurenai to just close their eyes, he did not explain what the Mangekyou Sharingan was. It seems like he knew something about it, but not thoroughly. Itachi is the one who explains to Kakashi the power of his Mangekyou Sharingan.


Hell no he didn't. If Hayate did, the buushins would have done damage instead of forcing Hayate to jump down and make an actual blow from above. And only 3 buushins from a jounin? HAHA. Naruto can do 100 without Kyuubi. It was a totally different jutsu seeing how it gained praise from the Sand Nin.
Well, I have the Official Naruto Character Data Book (published/released by Jump Comics &amp; Kishimoto) which states that Kage Bunshin is used in the Dance of the Crescent Moon. With Kage Bunshin, you are unable to distinguish which clone is the "original" since chakra is divided evenly among them. The Kage Bunshins were used as distraction as the "real" Hayate attacked from above. With regular Bunshin, since it is a low level skill and creates "false" clones, a highly skilled individual is capable of spotting the real person.

BakaShinji, you have failed to respond to the questions I have asked from you. Itachi never worries or comments about Kakashi copying his techniques. As I mentioned in a previous post, please provide the chapter &amp; page #, you are possibly confusing this incident to Kabuto's comments to Baki concerning Kakashi copying his techniques.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

i'm 19 and i attend univ of cali santa barbara. but that doesn't even matter, i could've still kept arguing with you if i had the intelligence of a 9 year old.

i will be back later to respond to all these long posts, but i gotta go right now. ciao.

EDIT: what about you bakashinji, age/school?

[BakaShinji]

Fear of Sharingan:
Mmm... You're right about the fear of copying. Thanks for pointing that out for me. That was between Baki and Kakashi, not Itachi and Kakashi.

Hayate's Kage Buushin:
Well, if the Official Naruto Character Database says it, I guess it has to be true. It wasn't something that I was aware of before.
Ok so Hayate can Kage Buushin. Great.
But that's only the third person that can do it, not counting Kakashi.

Hokage 3, Naruto, Hayate
edit: actually 4, Ebisu too /edit

Adding one more person to the pool people that can do it doesn't put the idea that Kakashi can do it beyond an assumption.
I still hold evidence of chronological event as greater evidence for my own opposing view.

Also I take production facts into account. The fact that fact parts were added between the manga to anime to help string together Kakashi's copying.
A. Kakashi watching Naruto from his bubble (for Kage Buushin)
B. Kakashi's brain on the cliff (for Gate numero uno or dos. Both are in the brain)

BTW: let us rejoice in ceasefire and GO WATCH 78 =D~~~~

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

i'm 19 and i attend univ of cali santa barbara. but that doesn't even matter, i could've still kept arguing with you if i had the intelligence of a 9 year old.

i will be back later to respond to all these long posts, but i gotta go right now. ciao.


Good job, you made it to a UC that isn't known for its bums. Only pot-smoking.

edit: turning 21 in about 10 days... mmm nail polish... and i'm at UCLA, we have bums

[raijin]

Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: raijin
EDIT: Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

It was Kawarimi not Kage buushin.
"Kawarimi yo. " - Orochimaru ep 30 14:01 ANBU v.

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji


Originally posted by: raijin
EDIT: Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

It was Kawarimi not Kage buushin.
"Kawarimi yo. " - Orochimaru ep 30 14:01 ANBU v.
I was using the manga as my reference. It seems like the animators changed it to kawarimi in the anime. But Orochimaru says he uses Kage Bunshin in the manga:

Orochimaru Kage Bunshin (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1041/naruto6-099.png)

For those of you who don't know Japanese, the middle left frame where Orochimaru is speaking says "Kage Bunshin".

[itachi_]

If Kakashi cannot use or copy that Mangekyou Sharingan with just his eye, it would be good if they can change his blood, Tsunande can do a operation and change blood, like human change from AB to A or vise versa... making Kakashi achieve the advance bloodline... i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: raijin


Originally posted by: BakaShinji


Originally posted by: raijin
EDIT: Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

It was Kawarimi not Kage buushin.
"Kawarimi yo. " - Orochimaru ep 30 14:01 ANBU v.
I was using the manga as my reference. It seems like the animators changed it to kawarimi in the anime. But Orochimaru says he uses Kage Bunshin in the manga:

Orochimaru Kage Bunshin (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1041/naruto6-099.png)

For those of you who don't know Japanese, the middle left frame where Orochimaru is speaking says "Kage Bunshin".

mmm interesting...
So what do we go with?
The anime or the manga? We are in the manga forum...... nutz...
I think if the writers decided to put kawarimi instead of kage buushin in the anime, I would believe Kishimoto had a say in it. The same with the added anime scenes (kage cough... gates.. cough). Anyways that's just me believing Kishimoto's refining plot.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: itachi_
If Kakashi cannot use or copy that Mangekyou Sharingan with just his eye, it would be good if they can change his blood, Tsunande can make a operation and change blood, like human change from AB to A or vise versa... making Kakashi achieve the advance bloodline... i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

do you think Kakashi would have to see it again to do mange? or that first time when he didn't have the blood was enough to teach him HOW it is done.

[Elessar]

All quotes originally posted by BakaShinji:


Kakashi can copy (learn the blueprint) and teach it.
-and the transfusion thing is my little blue hope. don't wreck it Elessar!!!
I refuse to believe in a complete blueprint, just some aspects.
And I will wreck it. It will be a great pleasure.


3. Mangekyou
But I still maintain he knows OF, and knows HOW it's done.
Well, the OF is out of question, he was attacked with it. I am quite sure he recognized that 72h of agony.
For the HOW... he has seen it, yes. But I doubt he could see what causes this development of the eye. Quite sure he knows the chakra mixture one needs to perform Tsukijomi, but I doubt out of seeing the development state of the sharingan he can conclude what has to be done to get it to that point.


4. copying Kage Bushin from Naruto
Jiraiya and Orochimaru have not performed Kage Buushin even though it comes in handy. In fact, orochimaru prefers his "kawarimi clay" over the use of buushins altogether.
As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins. And in what fight would a shadowclone have come handy to Jiraiya? Against Kisame and Itachi in that small corridor? Or against Orochimaru on top of Gamabunta's head?
And for the earth clone kawarimari, it is a kawarimari not a real clone. A shadowclone would have cost a lot more chakra and provided no advantage in that situation. Orochimaru controlled the fight, he had no need for distraction. The earth thing was wise, a shadowclone in that situation dumb.


Between 4th =&gt; Kakashi, Kage buushin was banned. And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process. The scroll isn't just classified. It is forbidden. No one can see it.
kakashi is #1 perhaps. But it does not mean he knows everything. Can all S class criminals perform Kage buushin even though they're in tons of handbooks shared by all countries? No - Orochimaru is a good example.
Not Kage Bunshin was classified, but a scroll with tons of jutsus - kage bunshin being one of them.
And I will continue to use classified, we had that in earlier discussions.
The scroll contains as far as we know a great amount of konohas high level jutsus. Completely not using them would weaken konoha to a large extent. Therefor this scroll is classified - with reaching a certain level and reputation limited and observed access to it is granted or the particular jutsus inside it taught.
The scroll is restricted from public because the jutsus in it are very powerful and access to them should be controlled. Like none of the jounins is angry because the others taught the gates, chidori or rasengan - they just think [now] that the genins aren't ready yet for such powerful jutsus. The main reason why the scroll is classified is - that was our result at that time - that the seal that was used on Naruto is described in it and by studying the sealing jutsu someone could find a way to undo it and unleash the demon fox.
I regard the choice of the word "forbidden" at that point as highly dramatic but with no actual meaning.
Orochimaru - see the one above.


6. Gates from Lee
- It is a last joker. Even Gai made a rule never to perform it unless "protecting someone important."
- Gai knows the gates, but his ability to perform isn't certain - although I feel he probably does know it. He didn't plan on teaching his group the gates, until they could perform the first lotus - which Lee was the only one that accomplished.
- Gai and Kakashi are rivals. Lee and Neji are rivals. Was Lee going to tell Neji about his gates and his "move to defeat" him? No. That would seem to point that Gai wouldn't tell Kakashi either.
First of all, teaching lotus is teaching gates. You didn't know that as you said later in these quotes, so no problem.
I remember Gai saying that he taught his group the lotus but Lee was the only one who could accomplish it. And I remember the image of the team besides these huge logs and only Lee's split in half. Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus. And I refuse that house Hyuuga -- the masters of chakra flow manipulation -- do not know about the gates and their functions. Even if Neji is branch, he is Hinata's bodyguard and of what use is a good-for-nothing bodyguard?


7. Climb the mountain
- focus one's mind would just be a picture of their face .. like:
Sakura does "kai"
Sasuke does "foot concentration to catch Kunai"
Naruto does same to his feet to water walk.
In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes.


Initial lotus is a forceful way to open gate one? I didn't know that - but I'll check...
It is the primary reason for it. Although destructive itself, that damage is neglectible compared to secondary lotus. And to pave the road to that is the most important effect of it.


Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.
He isn't in his prima any more i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif So maybe he needs to concentrate to do what he did with ease some years ago. Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.

how do you know this?



5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina.

naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.



Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.



8. Water clone
I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.

zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."

i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.

[staind]

don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

[Mut]

Originally posted by: staind
don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif



Originally posted by: Mut@t@
itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...

and he also said:

itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.

EDIT: to post below:

you're glad cuz i THINK i have it all figured out and everything? don't make laugh, i KNOW i have it all figured it out. and you say we don't know that if kishimoto has finished the uchiha story or not, and you're right. but until he does so, what i said and others who agreed are correct.

i still can't believe people are still thinking that kakashi learned kage bunshin from naruto. i'm even more surprised by the fact that you people are able to get up in the morning and brush your teeth without choking and gagging yourselves to death.

[staind]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: staind
don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif



Originally posted by: Mut@t@
itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...

and he also said:

itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.

i'm glad you think you have it all figured out and everything... lol, i'm just throwing out ideas, for one, we don't even know what Kamishimoto is thinking or has even finished the story about the Uchiha bloodline, so there will always be a possibility for anything to happen to Kakashi, once again, it's just a theory....

and to help back up BakaShinji about Naruto and his KageBunshin and other ninjas knowing about it... just remember that technique was inside of a secret scrole, the only other people we've seen use it so far was the 3rd, and Kakashi AFTER he saw Naruto use it.

[Elessar]

Sorry staind, but if you do not feel like reading what was discussed so far then please feel like not saying anything at all too.
It is a pure pain in the ass to have ppl coming up after some pages of discussion bringing back already dicussed aspects or aspects that are discussed right at the moment starting at zero again.

We do not discuss here for nothing, read it before you participate. That's a question of manners, something you seem to lack.

[Death BOO Z]

here's some foor for the mind about the mengekyou sharingan...

the mengekyou sharingan is powered by the Uchiha Blood as well as the sharingan, right?
so Kakashi can see and copy what invloves the Sharingan, but not what involves the blood, do you agree? doesn't that mean Kakashi would be able, at best, to teach Sasuke only half of the move?

i'll use an example, let's say Kakashi and Haku.
Kakashi could copy the one-handed seals that Haku did for his water jutsu, but not the the blood activition, so when he'd try the jutsu, he'll end up only using the hand seals, since the blood activiation is invisible to him. and since he doesn't know that, the only knowledge he'll be able to pass on is the hand seals, which are useless by themselves...

i hope i was clear on that...

about the scroll, Kagebunshin is a rather common skill (seeing how most of the genins and chunins know about it), my guess is that the scroll was sealed immidiatly after the kyubi incident, to prevent a chance of someone restoring the Kyubi with the unsealing jutsu. however, i think the scroll, when it was wrriten, was merely a 'dictionary' of jutsus the 4th knew to use, but since it contained the Kyubi unsealing mode, the entire scroll was forbidden. i mean, we were told that the SCROLL itself is forbidden, but it was never stated that the Kage Bunshin was forbidden, while other jutsus (the lotus, or the gates, and Edo tensai) were classified as KINJUTSU...

besides, what kind of teacher would Kakashi be if he had to COPY from his students?

[Elessar]

Death BOO Z, I agree on both issues.

That's what I wanted to say about knowing parts of Tsukijomi but not how to get the sharingan to the mangekyou state, the blood lineage and their effects on has to be born into to fully understand, in a short and clear example.
Same applies to the scroll.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: ...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.
Mutatata: how do you know this?
ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.



Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: 5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina. Mutata: naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.
He CAN create many kage bushins. Forest of death against the 3 (edit: rain) nins? Orochimaru had sealed kyuubi's mixing seal.



Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.
Mutata: sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.
My assumption at least has my line of reasoning. What is your assumption? And what is your line of reasoning?



8. Water clone
Baka: I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.
Mutatata: zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."
i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.
Sorry, I was talking about the waterblast ultimate technique. I was merely titling it after Elessar's format. You should have picked that up when I said Kakashi used Genjutsu in combo with the technique, since he didn't genjutsu when he copied the clone. But maybe you didn't. That's ok, mis-titling by me.

edit: BTW. this supports the point that Kakashi is indeed actively copying techniques, no matter how apparently weak the technique is (mizu vs kage), or who is doing it (naruto/lee). If he had already known Kage Buushin, why would he copy the lowly Mizu buushin, which only has 1/10 of the original user's power? /edit

Response to Elessar:
"Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus."
He said it right before his final lotus on Gaara... "Neji, this was a move I was saving to defeat you - but I'm going to show it to you nonetheless." Who cares if Neji knew or not? Lee is working under a Theory of Mind assumption. He doesn't know that Neji knows, and it doesn't matter if he did. Lee wanted to save it as a secret finishing move on Neji.

"In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes." (about the cliffhanging)
Exactly part of my point that Kishimoto intends the audience to believe Kakashi is copying these jutsu's. They changed to showing Kakashi activating something in his brain. He fixed it up in the anime to instill clarity, but by the looks of this forum it is not.

On a similiar note: The change from Orochimaru's Kagebuushin from the Manga to Kawarimi in the Anime is also a purposeful move by the animators. ("As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins [in the manga. if you read my post it changed to kawarimi in the anime].")

and to add to that: The added scene with Kakashi watching Naruto pull off his first Kage Buushin in Kakashi's presence was another change from manga to anime.

summ of these points: Is no one seeing the obvious production changes?

"Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now."
He's never opened a gate before. He used it for the first time on that cliff. That is why it required the effort.

and to Elessar: Could you explain difference between Tsukiyomi and Mange. I was under the impression it was merely different names for the same thing.

For Death BOOZ:
First points kudos. I agree.
Last point about Kage Buushin I disagree. No Gennins know about it save Naruto. No Chuunins know about it PERIOD. The only Jounin that knows about it is Hayate (from official jump statswhore magazine) and Ebisu. Not everyone knows about it, and there have been even attempts by the writers to reduce the number of people that know this jutsu. (i.e. Orochimaru's buushin got nerfed to a kawarimi.)

[Elessar]

Itachi says something like:
"I will show you why we are the most feared clan *mumble* my mangekyou sharingan *mumble* my tsukiyomi is the ultimate genjutsu."

So Tsukijomi is a jutsu. Following Tsukijomi will become Amaterasu, Amaterasu will be another jutsu. And they are possible because of his Mangekyou Sharingan. So that isn't a jutsu, more like a state in which the sharingan is.

First Sasuke had increased capabilities in keeping up with Haku's speed (one dot stage), later he could copy Lee's movement (two dots stage). By the time he will get to level Kakashi is at were he can create the copy illusion etc in real time (three dots stage). Itachi can do more, he can use the two above mentioned jutsus (Mangekyou state).

So "Mangekyou Sharingan" is the name for his level of sharingan mastery. I think it is safe to believe that that is the highest sharingan level, the one of a sharingan master. Tsukijomi is the name of a jutsu he is able to perform because he mastered his sharingan up to the "Mangekyou" level.

Hope that was somewhat understandable.

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
For Death BOOZ:
First points kudos. I agree.
Last point about Kage Buushin I disagree. No Gennins know about it save Naruto. No Chuunins know about it PERIOD. The only Jounin that knows about it is Hayate (from official jump statswhore magazine) and Ebisu. Not everyone knows about it, and there have been even attempts by the writers to reduce the number of people that know this jutsu. (i.e. Orochimaru's buushin got nerfed to a kawarimi.)
Actually, Itachi uses Kage Bunshin as well, but it seems he has modified it so that the clones are capable of exploding.

[BakaShinji]

Oooh i c. So Mange is a state of his eyes due to physical development. And Tsukiyomi is the jutsu supposedly arising from this state.

OK i c.. Now swap everything I've said about Mange to Tsukiyomi.... does anyone have any problems now?

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Elessar
By the time he will get to level Kakashi is at were he can create the copy illusion etc in real time.

what's that?

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

god, you are so stuuupid. how the fuck does that prove anything??? you're just claiming that kakashi got the eye after itachi kills his clan? what the fuck? this is like when itachi_ (the banned member) said that kakashi got his eye from obito who is itachi's (the character's) dad or something equally retarded like that.



He CAN create many kage bushins. Forest of death against the 3 (edit: rain) nins? Orochimaru had sealed kyuubi's mixing seal.

the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that.



My assumption at least has my line of reasoning. What is your assumption? And what is your line of reasoning?

i'm not assuming anything, buddy. i'm just telling you that what you are saying isn't fact, just opinion, yet you keep ignoring what i'm trying to get across to you.



edit: BTW. this supports the point that Kakashi is indeed actively copying techniques, no matter how apparently weak the technique is (mizu vs kage), or who is doing it (naruto/lee). If he had already known Kage Buushin, why would he copy the lowly Mizu buushin, which only has 1/10 of the original user's power? /edit

this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume, as you have been doing the whole time.



The change from Orochimaru's Kagebuushin from the Manga to Kawarimi in the Anime is also a purposeful move by the animators.

this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha.

and i'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of the post. sorry to be really harsh, but it's all garbage. you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not.

[Assertn]

orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

[BakaShinji]

Ok Dazzz/Mut@t@.

In this thread:

You have given no constructive arguments only destructive ones.
You give no personal opinions and yet only taken the time to attack other's opinions.
You have never admitted that you're wrong; you just covering you tracks by freely re-editing your posts.
Your favorite word is "assume" "assumption" or some word with ass in it. You just enjoy plastering on this word to anything that remotely requires any inferencement or brain power.

Here are things that you've said that are just stupid in the last thread alone:

"the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that."
Ok, so you're saying Naruto's pretty blue chakra is not his own but Kyuubi's?
WHAT THE HELL WAS JIRAIYA DOING TEACHING NARUTO TO USE THE RED ONE??

"this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume as you've been doing this whole time"
I thought that was the idea of a discussion? To create theories and make arguments. So what's your opinion? Once again you do not have one.

"this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha."
Ok, if this is not it, please provide a better explanation as to why YOU think they redid the scenes. I invite you to assume/theorize all you want, you have done very little of this type of higher order thinking thus far.

"you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not."
Do you want a disclaimer? Should all posts have a leading disclaimer... "THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT XXX IS TYPING AND ENTIRELY HIS/HER OWN OPINION. PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED WITH FACT, SINCE WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE TRUE FACT IS" This is a discussion thread, get over it. I say what I believe is true, and I do not purport them as fact. Besides semantic or mathematical constructs, there is no fact.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

yes, weird isn't it? someone posted a pic from a chinese manga. And i just read Troy's version - both say Kage buushin.

[Gods_Son]

At this point the argument between you and Mut@t@ really isn't getting anywhere, I don't see a point for either of you to continue trying to prove your point to the other. And yea, kage bunshin doesn't really suit Orochimaru in my opinion.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@


Originally posted by: BakaShinji
ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

god, you are so stuuupid. how the fuck does that prove anything??? you're just claiming that kakashi got the eye after itachi kills his clan? what the fuck? this is like when itachi_ (the banned member) said that kakashi got his eye from obito who is itachi's (the character's) dad or something equally retarded like that..

Ok, maybe these series of events will explain.

3rd Hokage picks the 4th
Orochimaru leaves village in contempt (Kakashi still has normal eyes, from Oro's future statement)
Jutsus are forbidden
4th dies
Naruto Sasuke are 7/8 years old and Uchiha clan is obliterated
___________
Orochimaru meets Kakashi and expresses envy over his new found eye.

Ok, now stick "Kakashi gets new eye" in the best place up there in that list. A suggested answer is underlined. Does it fit there?

There is a reason, Mutt, that the leading theory about Kakashi's eye is surrounded by the eventful ending of the Uchiha clan.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
You have never admitted that you're wrong; you just covering you tracks by freely re-editing your posts.
Your favorite word is "assume" "assumption" or some word with ass in it. You just enjoy plastering on this word to anything that remotely requires any inferencement or brain power.

what the fucK? i cover my tracks by freely re-editing my posts? you're stupid, man. since when was the EDIT feature a clear indication for "covering tracks". did you bother to think that there was a quoting error and i needed to fix it? of course not. you're the only person here who doesn't see that what you're saying is nothing but ASSUMPTIONS. i don't know how much more i have to explain this, just RE-READ what i have posted before.



Here are things that you've said that are just stupid in the last thread alone:

"the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that."
Ok, so you're saying Naruto's pretty blue chakra is not his own but Kyuubi's?
WHAT THE HELL WAS JIRAIYA DOING TEACHING NARUTO TO USE THE RED ONE??

obviously, there still were two different types of chakra; naruto's and kyubi's. but that doesn't mean naruto was able to use it properly even though, the two chakra were gradually getting mixed together.



"this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume as you've been doing this whole time"
I thought that was the idea of a discussion? To create theories and make arguments. So what's your opinion? Once again you do not have one.

you're an idiot. all i've been saying is "WHY DO YOU KEEP ACTING AS IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS FACT WHEN IT'S REALLY NOT" but you still can't realize it. i really wonder why.



"this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha."
Ok, if this is not it, please provide a better explanation as to why YOU think they redid the scenes. I invite you to assume/theorize all you want, you have done very little of this type of higher order thinking thus far.

i don't fucking know. i wish i had the actual anime to watch it over again, but i can't. i only have the manga to deal with. maybe the producers wanted to re do the scene cuz they thought it would be cooler, i don't fucking know. why don't you send them a letter.



"you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not."
Do you want a disclaimer? Should all posts have a leading disclaimer... "THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT XXX IS TYPING AND ENTIRELY HIS/HER OWN OPINION. PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED WITH FACT, SINCE WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE TRUE FACT IS" This is a discussion thread, get over it. I say what I believe is true, and I do not purport them as fact. Besides semantic or mathematical constructs, there is no fact.

then why don't you change the way you post things? i ask you about proof and you present me some random garbage trying to support your 'thoughts' trying to pass it on as facts. stop.

EDIT:



Ok, maybe these series of events will explain.

3rd Hokage picks the 4th
Orochimaru leaves village in contempt (Kakashi still has normal eyes, from Oro's future statement)
Jutsus are forbidden
4th dies
Naruto Sasuke are 7/8 years old and Uchiha clan is obliterated
___________
Orochimaru meets Kakashi and expresses envy over his new found eye.

Ok, now stick "Kakashi gets new eye" in the best place up there in that list. A suggested answer is underlined. Does it fit there?

yeah, it fits there, but did you ever think that "kakashi gets new eye" could be placed IMMEDIATELY after orochimaru leaves village? or anywhere after that? probably not from the way you think, baka. there are so many differenct scenarios that i can't think of all of them right now, my thoughts are cluttered. maybe, i'll post some later.

[BakaShinji]

"i wish i had the actual anime to watch it over again, but i can't. i only have the manga to deal with. maybe the producers wanted to re do the scene cuz they thought it would be better, i don't fucking know."

well that explains a lot. And I'm here busting my ass checking the anime and manga - while you just go off shotgunning whatever comes to the top of your head from the manga.

Now - I see why you don't believe anything I've said, because you have no way to check anything I've said about the anime. Added scenes, etc.

So why don't you just keep your mouth shut, and check my evidence before blasting off half-witted retorts.

CheCK YO Self Before you WrecK yo Self!

edit: BTW: about "proof". this word should be erased from the dictionary. Sooner or later you'll learn that nothing can be proven. /edit

[Mut]

i don't have the anime to thoroughly examine it but i've watched each episode more than you can count. so why don't YOU keep your mouth shut instead of underestimating my knowledge on it. you should ask yourself, why only YOU are arguing against many people. you can't even fathom the idea what you're saying is wrong and can go the other way.

so many people have jumped on to the 'overanalysis' boat making random, absurd crap out of simple events and happenings. ridiculous.

EDIT: i realize that this thread is on the verge of getting locked due to flaming. so let me say this real quick: i apologize if i came off too harsh, plz forget the hate. but i still stand by my comments.

[BakaShinji]

Times I've admitted I was wrong:

1. Itachi fearing Kakashi copying his moves. My bad, it was Baki
2. Mange Sharingan being a jutsu, Tsukiyomi's the jutsu (according to Elessar)
3. Orochimaru never having done Kage buushin (this is actually true in the manga, checking the raw version as well as the translated version)
4. edit Crescent Dance /edit does have Kage Buushin elements (according to a Naruto stats magazine, I trust the poster's insistence of this evidence, although I have not seen it. - something you should learn to do Mut@t@).

Times you've admitted error:
none so far

Keep thinking you're always right, and never voice your own opinion. It'll get you places.

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
"i wish i had the actual anime to watch it over again, but i can't. i only have the manga to deal with. maybe the producers wanted to re do the scene cuz they thought it would be better, i don't fucking know."

well that explains a lot. And I'm here busting my ass checking the anime and manga - while you just go off shotgunning whatever comes to the top of your head from the manga.

Now - I see why you don't believe anything I've said, because you have no way to check anything I've said about the anime. Added scenes, etc.

So why don't you just keep your mouth shut, and check my evidence before blasting off half-witted retorts.
Well, as you mentioned in a previous post, this is the Naruto Manga section of the forum. So, it seems right that the manga holds more credibility here.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Times I've admitted I was wrong:

1. Itachi fearing Kakashi copying his moves. My bad, it was Baki
2. Mange Sharingan being a jutsu, Tsukiyomi's the jutsu (according to Elessar)
3. Orochimaru never having done Kage buushin (this is actually true in the manga, checking the raw version as well as the translated version)
4. edit Crescent Dance /edit does have Kage Buushin elements (according to a Naruto stats magazine, I trust the poster's insistence of this evidence, although I have not seen it. - something you should learn to do Mut@t@).

Times you've admitted error:
none so far

Keep thinking you're always right, and never voice your own opinion. It'll get you places.

i never said i was always right, i'm just never wrong. there is a difference. if i wanted to say that i was always right, i would've put that in my sig instead. and i don't really care if you were wrong on whatever, that is not important. and there is no place for me to say that i was wrong cuz i never have been in this discussion. i've stuck by one thing: 'do not make your posts sound as if they are facts when they are not.' and as for voicing my opinion. i didn't give my opinion on any of what we've been discussing because i truly don't know. i don't know when kakashi got his eye, if he learned kage bunshin and gate opening from naruto and lee, respectively, or not. i really don't and that's why i didn't voice my opinions. cuz if i have nothing to back up what i say, i don't bother saying it at all. i agree on the fact that what you say is possible, but i'm not ever gonna believe it because it has no concrete evidence to support it enough. just saying that "oh, the animators made kakashi look at naruto with both eye while naruto was doing kage bunshin and that's where kakashi learned kage bunshin" is not enough of a solid evidence to convince anyone, especially me.

that is all.

EDIT: yeah, i was wrong on naruto's rasengan. cmdr_raven corrected me =/

it is kabuto who says it. if someone for whatever reason really wants to see it, i'll post up the page.

[Assertn]

well BakaShinji, apparently Mut@t@ does admit being wrong, judging by the adjustment in his sig
and did Baki actually say he didnt want kakashi copying his moves, or are you just confusing him with kabuto? cause i KNOW kabuto said that

can someone tell me what chapter oro used kage bunshin?

[raijin]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
well BakaShinji, apparently Mut@t@ does admit being wrong, judging by the adjustment in his sig
and did Baki actually say he didnt want kakashi copying his moves, or are you just confusing him with kabuto? cause i KNOW kabuto said that

can someone tell me what chapter oro used kage bunshin?
It's where Orochimaru and Anko were fighting in the Forest of Death. Well, here's the manga page I posted in a previous post on a previous page:

Orochimaru Kage Bunshin (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1041/naruto6-099.png)

It's in Japanese, but Orochimaru says "Kage Bunshin yo..." in the middle left panel.

[lasaire]

Ok, first of all, I can see where Orochimaru/Kage Bunshin confusion arises. It IS kage bunshin in the manga, but in the anime he says 'kawarimi yo." And the replacement melts away into mud.

Secondly, YO!! Mut@t@ and BakaShinji!! Chill out or earn yourself a time out! I have warned and warned, and I'm getting tired of it!

[Mut]

i'm coo, there's no hate. i appreciate.

[Assertn]

yeah i noticed......they called it shadow clone and im so used to kage bunshin at this point that i didnt even think about it
also i was sorta goin through the manga fast so i could start getting to the stuff that wasnt in the anime yet (which was around the time when jiraiya first showed up i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif)

[Elessar]

@lasaire: During more than for of the six pages we may had a very emotional discussion, yes, but it covered a lot of issues and really got results out of it. No need for time outs at this point. The manga section mastered hard discussions i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Now I want to join the speculation about the Kage Bunshin / Kawarimi discussion.

First of all, manga reader's brains and anime viewer's brains work differently.
We [Manga reading folks] see this whole shinobi world and skills used by its inhabitants. Orochimaru was a high-class shinobi from konoha, so it is only natural for him to use high level konoha jutsus. For example the kage bunshin.

Anime crowds are more like "OMFG! NARUTO! L33T KAGE BUNSHIN MY A$$!". They see kage bunshin as Naruto's very own "special move" noone else is allowed to do. So to provide them their illusion, they changed it.

This discussion is a good example. Wee see different shinobi using the same jutsu and the question that arises is "Where and when did each of them learn it?". In the anime section on various occasions you could see posts like "OMG! XYZ ripped ABC of his SkillZ!!1!" (example: Sasuke doing Lee's taijutsu).
That's my conclusion. They changed it not because they do not want Oro to be able to do it, but to make the anime experience easier and to provide better and clearer distinguished characters the kids can identify themselves with.

PS: I am aware that the above contains some major generalizations. If you think you do not fit in there - regard yourself as an exception.

[hiten mitsurugi]

Kakashi could have copied the mange. The only bloodline that the Uchiha's have is the sharingan itself. Remember that not every Uchiha develops a Sharingan even though they have Uchiha blood. If the sharingan is said to be able to copy any jutsu except blood line limits (obviously because it requires that certain thing that the individual has, for example you couldn't copy Kimimaro pulling out his bones, because they don't have the bones to do that with) then Kakashi should have been able to copy mange. Mange, even though without hand seals, is still a jutsu. Especially since it is emitted through the eye. All it is, is a high level genjutsu through the use of sharingan.

Oh, I hope all you people who are making such a hyperbole of Sharingan, aren't disappointed when it doesn't meet your expectations. Don't jump on the bandwagon, just to fall of the turnip wagon.

[Chi Chi]

He doesn't have two eyes and to create 3D illusions you'd need 2 eyes

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Chi Chi
He doesn't have two eyes and to create 3D illusions you'd need 2 eyes

LOL......

[okenshino]

inane is retranslating those chapters...
and for the record...
tsukuyomi is the illusion jutsu...
moon reader...something like that
and amaterasu is some sun god maybe...but its the technique that itachi used the black flame one that...they used to escape from the toads stomach...
it will be in the new volume 17 from the tankubons that inane will release...retranslated of course...
okay...