WHY IS LEE ON PAR WITH Kimmimaro?? [Archive]

Kalean

Sun, 03-28-2004, 03:13 AM

Alright, first post, but here's a few rebuttals.

On Kimi being stronger than Kabuto:
A) The manga compared Kimimaro to *SASUKE* in seal strength only. It's obvious however that Kimimaro is a frightening character, if he's already half dead and killing hundreds of Kyuubi Naruto clones.
B) Kimi was not compared to Kabuto. What was mentioned was that Kimimaro was Orochimaru's first choice, and that Sasuke was his fallback. This does lead you to wonder if Kimimaro has something more up his sleeve, since obviously the Sharingan would be much more helpful in Orochimaru's goal of learning all the Jutsu in the world.

On 'stronger than Kabuto' equalling 'stronger than Kakashi'.
A) Kabuto is not as strong a character as Kakashi. Orochimaru stated that he was only 'about' Kakashi level. It's important to note that Orochimaru is not omniscient, and that, like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE MANGA, he underestimates Kakashi. When Kakashi started the Chidori, Orochimaru was surprised. He was also surprised that Kakashi could perform seals, so Orochimaru is hardly the authoritative expert on Kakashi's strength level.
B) Kakashi obviously learned how to open the gates from his observation of the Rock Lee fight. (Unless you can possibly conceive of a reason why he would reveal his sharingan when he realized that Rock Lee could open 5 gates, and an equally believable explanation for Kakashi's opening a gate while rock climbing.)
C) Kabuto being compared to Kakashi is a COMPLIMENT. More than likely, from what we have seen, it is not that Kabuto could necessarily fight evenly with Kakashi, but rather that Kabuto likely possesses the same 'Jounin factor' that Kakashi, Gai, and a few other spiffy people in the series have. (Also known as the 'I'm cooler than you are. Period.' factor) If forced to hazard a guess, I would say that Kabuto's strength lies in a huge amount of flexibility in terms of what he can do, sort of like a really awesome generalist. At least, that's what we've seen evidence of so far.

On Naruto vs. Sasuke (or Kimimaro for that matter):
Naruto and Sasuke (or Kimimaro) is a bad match up. One will always be FAR stronger than the other, because of the COMPLETELY methods in fighting. There will never be an even fight. Even when Naruto and Sasuke fought on the rooftop in Konoha, when they were debatably the closest to each other overall, Naruto would've been the obvious victor with the Rasengan. However, considering that Sasuke didn't use the curse seal at all in that little testosterone induced battle, and that level 2 is just THAT FAR beyond level 1, it is likely that Sasuke (who is incidentally VERY UGLY IN CURSE SEAL 2... that might not go over well with the fan girls..) will soundly defeat Naruto and take himself to train under Orochimaru. After all, it has been established both that a) Sasuke is a prick, and b) Sasuke, Sakura, and Naruto have REMARKABLE parrallels with Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jiraiya. Therefore, it is likely that Sasuke will train under Orochimaru, if for no under reason than to be able to summon snakes. Kimimaro has a similar bad match up against Naruto. Naruto is about Creativity, Sasuke and Kimi are mainly about skill. Lots of it.

On Rock Lee in general:
A) It is more than likely that this drunken boxing style, however intimidating Gai makes it sound, will merely force Kimimaro into the first curse seal state, if the previous patterns are any indication.
B) According to the Naruto PS2 game (which accurately predicted Shikamaru's new technique, and Neji's Ougi [that hasn't been shown, but was mentioned once.]) Rock Lee *APPARENTLY* will be able to use the gates with greater flexibility than he did against Gaara. Whether this is due to the effects of alcohol or not is unclear, but the ps2 game predicts Rock Lee creating a new move (The Shin Ura Renge, or for you english speakers, the Improved Extreme Lotus) that is the equivalent of 40 of his ultimate move (Again, the extreme lotus) in the span of approximately one second. Obviously, if this comes to pass, Kimimaro is screwed beyond words. However, it's important to note that the Naruto PS2 game has also predicted Naruto accidentally summoning THE FOURTH HOKAGE, so the trustworthiness of that game is a bit on the iffy side.

Summary:
Rock Lee is one of the most popular characters among an UNBELIEVABLY huge percentage of Kishimoto's target audience, and with good reason. He is both the comic relief AND the can of whupass rolled into one. It is more than likely that Rock Lee will defeat Kimimaro by my way of thinking, but if there is anything Kishimoto is good at, it's surprising the readers. Even if I *did* see Rock Lee's entrance coming. Obviously, the drunken fist style in this chapter was an example of such unexpected things (although it's very fitting for the character). At least with Rock Lee in the picture, things will cease to be overly dark and serious and grim as they have been the past volume or so. With Neji, Chouji, and Kiba all half dead, and Orochimaru inhabiting what could debatably be the body of Tsunade's younger brother, it looks like this arc is going to be keeping us on the edge of our seats for some time.

Shishou

Sun, 03-28-2004, 04:18 AM

Do not forget, Gai is done with his mission.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

jonny-mt

Sun, 03-28-2004, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by: Kalean
B) According to the Naruto PS2 game (which accurately predicted Shikamaru's new technique, and Neji's Ougi [that hasn't been shown, but was mentioned once.]) Rock Lee *APPARENTLY* will be able to use the gates with greater flexibility than he did against Gaara. Whether this is due to the effects of alcohol or not is unclear, but the ps2 game predicts Rock Lee creating a new move (The Shin Ura Renge, or for you english speakers, the Improved Extreme Lotus) that is the equivalent of 40 of his ultimate move (Again, the extreme lotus) in the span of approximately one second. Obviously, if this comes to pass, Kimimaro is screwed beyond words. However, it's important to note that the Naruto PS2 game has also predicted Naruto accidentally summoning THE FOURTH HOKAGE, so the trustworthiness of that game is a bit on the iffy side.

Um, which PS2 game are you playing? Yeah, it did take some liberties with jutsus (i.e. Sakura's tree genjutsu, which is shown when the three Jounin are up against Itachi), but it was designed around the manga up to a certain point, which the anime has now caught up to. Unless I am extraordinarily mistaken as well as cursed with a horrible memory, Naruto's 3rd-level jutsu is calling up Gamabunta, not the Fourth.

Off-topic PS2 nitpicking aside, what makes you say with any authority that Sasuke is ugly in 2nd-level seal? Yeah, I agree it's probably going to be along the lines of the rest of them, but you make it sound like you know something we don't. Mayhap you could enlighten us, tell us where you got that from?

Legendary Nin

Sun, 03-28-2004, 10:32 AM

Never questions the fuzzy brows.We don't know what Lee gained during his off-time.He was going in for surgery when the genin five left to get Sasuke.They've been gone for what seems a couple of months,so that gives Lee plenty of time to recover and fight.Remember Lee was in the hands of Tsunade,so obviously things were going to go over well.

lasaire

Sun, 03-28-2004, 12:16 PM

I don't think they've been gone for months at all, in fact, I believe they've been gone less than a full day. There's been nothing to show any kind of time passing, and the mission of the four Sound Nin was so time sensitive that it seems to have needed to be accomplished that quickly. I supppose we'll all have to wait and see.

MightyDustLoop

Sun, 03-28-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by: Legendary Nin
Never questions the fuzzy brows.We don't know what Lee gained during his off-time.He was going in for surgery when the genin five left to get Sasuke.They've been gone for what seems a couple of months,so that gives Lee plenty of time to recover and fight.Remember Lee was in the hands of Tsunade,so obviously things were going to go over well.

Months? I don't think its been a day yet. And keep in mind Lee has to do the same traveling they do, so the difference in time isn't THAT much deviating from their fighting time. Even if Lee is faster it's not a big difference.

Plus, Lee's been walking around with a crutch and bad back for a little while. You'd think if anything he has to be weaker, especially comparing him to the 5 who left who've been gathering new techniques.

Oh well, just accept that there's not a lot of reality in fiction and enjoy it for what it is.

khaodessy

Sun, 03-28-2004, 04:55 PM

how i took it was they were only gone for like 1-2 days since lee had he operation and could start training again tomarrow.

Death BOO Z

Sun, 03-28-2004, 05:17 PM

the sound four said that only half a day passed since thier mission began, and that it's now dusk time, so we can say that.

A: it's somewhere around 6-7 PM, the sound four started thier count since they started moving with Sasuke.
or (the more logical option)
B: it's somewhere around 5-6 AM, the sun is just begining to shine now (therefore it's dusk) and the sound four started the count since they got to Sasuke, but it means that the surgety took less than two hours to perform (i've waitied in line to the doctor longer than that!), since the two chunins found Sakura at 4am..

but if you want a real time paradox, check this:
at the chapter when Sasuke talks to the sound four, there's a full moon, but when he leavs with them, there's only a cresent moon...

Mut

Sun, 03-28-2004, 09:34 PM

if lee wins, it'll be so stupid. he just came out of surgery and he's still taking medicine. i really wish lee didn't show up to rescue naruto.

Insomniac

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:45 AM

Naruto was fighting Kimimaro at the fullest Kyuubi hes been so far, using ALL his strength - more then when he fought Gaara.
he did not even touch Kimimaro.
Lee is far weaker then Gaaras demon form and yet hes a match for Kimimaro? what the hell

khaodessy

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:57 AM

well naruto only sent his clones to fight kimi from what i got to test his strength and maybe tire him out a bit. seeing how not even one of this clones could land a single blow to kimi did make naruto seem a bit concerned. can you blame him in a matter of minutes kimi took out a few hundred clones and didnt even break out a sweat. just like kimi lee isnt 100% and is in worst condition then lee is in. i didnt see anyone complain about kimi showing up as fast as he did but people said lee caught up to fast. the only thing i can think of is that even tho in kyubi state naruto's speed increases but kimi must still be faster then kyubi-naruto. the only gennins with the speed to fight him would be neji but he is out, sasuke who just laughed and ran off and finially lee. i think there couldnt be a better match up. the one with the stronger will in this fight will be the winner

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:58 AM

i figured it out, lee is a saiya-jin, duh. he becomes stronger after he recovers from every fight. cmon, now...figure it out people.

Insomniac

Mon, 03-29-2004, 01:06 AM

Neji isnt as fast as Naruto in Kyuubi, we've seen that.
as for clones to 'test' him, he wanted him dead so he could save Sasuke.
he wasnt testing him

and you act like his clones are weak? they're his total power divided into each clone so each clone is as powerful as the next and all together they're equal to narutos strength.

Xceleration

Mon, 03-29-2004, 02:46 AM

Rock Paper Scissors, Rock > Scissors, Scissors > Paper. Just because Scissors > Paper, and Rock > Scissors does that mean Rock > Paper? No it doesn't. Just because Naruto can't defeat Kimimaro, Lee has a whole different fighting style, so he may be able to win. Kimimaro isn't as strong as you think, and he's definately not just under the legendary 3, he's most likely at the level of a chuunin.

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 02:52 AM

kimimaro isn't as strong as kabuto but he has to be freaking super strong. i mean, he was orochimaru's first choice and that's before sasuke, the super genius from the crazy clan...this year's the number one rookie. not possible that kimimaro can lose to lee. it'd just be stupid if kimimaro got beat up by lee.

Tenkei

Mon, 03-29-2004, 03:37 AM

Well -- as we can see, Orochimaru doesn't choose bodies based on their current abilities. He gets bodies who have the most potential in the future. So that doesn't neccessarily mean that Kimimaro is extremely strong at all right now.

He doesn't have to be super strong. He'd probably draw with Sasuke at the moment.

Also: I don't know where you got that Naruto was using the most Kyuubi power we've seen him use, Insomniac. Naruto could still keep Kyuubi's power in check, besides the change in physical appearance, it doesn't seem so much different than when he used the Kyuubi power against Neji. I'd still say that he used more power in his fight against Haku.

And yes, Naruto didn't go at Kimimaro with all his strength. If he'd done that, he'd be at a loss if he messed up at any point. It's obviously safer to go in with weaker attacks at the beginning. I don't neccessarily think Naruto was testing Kimimaro's power - but I think it's very likely that Naruto was just trying to get out of the battle as healthy as he could.

He couldn't exactly afford to win the battle just barely, like everyone else had done, since he'd still have to bring Sasuke back and everything. I think he was being smart and seeing if he could just win be outnumbering Kimimaro.

Goobermeister

Mon, 03-29-2004, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by: lasaire
First of all, the translation isn't even out yet!! Wait until it's translated, I'm sure there will be at least some explanation as to Lee's appearance there!

Secondly, there's no evidence that Lee is "on par" with Kimimaro at all; the fight has barely begun and Kimimaro was startled by Lee's appearance, enough to lower his defence level. Wait a few more rounds and then discuss this.

i agree, wait fro the translation then hop to conclusions. but i cant wait till they actually fight. it'll be interesting to say the least. and as for teh slug and snake pics...... i think that naryto and gang will be the next " legendary 3" from the leaf. i really dont see how sakura is going to get any better though. maybe the 5th will teach her medical jutsus...........

as for kimi's strength lvl..... well he really hasnt showed his true power yet. all he did so far was remove a bone and turn it into a sword(freaky), and do some funky swordplay and destroy lotsa clones. maybe he'll pull some gaara type transformation outta his butt. who knows. i think lee is stronger physically though. that doesnt mean he'll win, just that he's stronger and quite possibly faster. kimi has the seal to fall on if stuff gets outta hand though. however i kinda equate opening gates as the same as using cursed seal. so whatever. im tired and typing incoherently. take my opinions for what they're worth(most likely not a pimple on anyone's......you know). however i would like to see replies to my thoughts. not nastygrams though. just differing views or if you agree show support of my theories.

SilentDevil

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:17 PM

for all those ppl who said that kimimaro is chuunin lvl, or not beyond the jounin lvl, they are extremely wrong. the thing is, even the tayuya who is jounin lvl, is afraid of kimimaro. meaning that he obviously he mucccccch better than the 4 gate keepers of sound... and dont forget, the 4 sound guyz totally whupped some leaf JouNiN so.. how can u say kimimaro is below jounin lvl?

the next thing abt rock lee is that.. he drank alcohol; cos he mistake it for his medicine. and when he drinks alcohol he goes into a frenzy, in such a form, even gai is afraid of him.

last thing, regarding the on par thing, noticed everyone SUDDENLY had some new special ultimate moves or something, and manages to beat the jounins? thats because this is a MANGA it doesnt neccessarily have to make 100% sense, of course seeing the main characters, suddenly have nice skillz, and whupping ultra strong people, this would make the manga much nicer to read, thats why the author did that.

Harageki

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:33 PM

um...I really dont understand the people who keep comparing this to the gaara fight.
Like someone above said, `rock - paper - scissor`. Gaara`s strength is an absolute defence: rock lee`s strength is physical based attacks, go figure. An example is when Sasuke tried to hit Gaara`s sheild with taijutsu and ended up with broken knuckles. He had to resort to NINJUTSU (hence rock/paper/scissor). The Rock Lee versus Kimimaro fight is completely different to the Gaara one.

sangai

Mon, 03-29-2004, 12:51 PM

yes taijutsu vs taijutsu but you have to remember that kimimaru also has cursed lvl 2 seal and well reall all lee has is his super great taijutsu kimi can use nin and prolly gen jutsu

but all in all i think rock lee will lose and be back where he started "in the hospital" just my opinion im not a huge lee fan but he is a great character and should win i just don't think he can do it

moridin

Mon, 03-29-2004, 02:33 PM

MightyDustLoop

Mon, 03-29-2004, 02:37 PM

I figure Lee will beat on or fight on par with Kimi until he goes into Level 2, who will then beat on Lee, but his body will go out before he kills him. It's a good reason to make him out to be ill storywise.

All we need is for Lee to shove some weed in his mouth and it'll be the stoner vs. the boner.

There's a battle of epic proportions for ya.

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 03:22 PM

i don't understand why people still just assume that kimimaro has the same curse seal as sasuke and the sound 4 and kimimaro can go to lvl 2. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME CURSE SEAL.

sangai

Mon, 03-29-2004, 03:27 PM

no they don't sasuke has something like a heaven seal and kimimaru has something like a gaiea seal

who knows what the others seals are i think each seal is unique or its a different seal for differant people

moridin

Mon, 03-29-2004, 05:38 PM

Who said they were the same seal? I stated that Kabuto was wondering whether Kimimaro's seal was stronger or Sasuke's. Never did I mention that they were the same (in case you were implicating me).

lasaire

Mon, 03-29-2004, 07:56 PM

In fact, they are NOT the same seal.

Kabuto states that the seals are equal in the amount of power they give to the sealed person. Kimimaro has the "Gaia" seal while Sasuke has the "Heaven" seal.

Raven

Mon, 03-29-2004, 08:24 PM

Even if they are different seals, should the fact that they are seals suggest that there is a level 1 and 2 involved? Maybe not, hard to tell.

Kalean

Mon, 03-29-2004, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by: jonny-mt

Um, which PS2 game are you playing? Yeah, it did take some liberties with jutsus (i.e. Sakura's tree genjutsu, which is shown when the three Jounin are up against Itachi), but it was designed around the manga up to a certain point, which the anime has now caught up to. Unless I am extraordinarily mistaken as well as cursed with a horrible memory, Naruto's 3rd-level jutsu is calling up Gamabunta, not the Fourth.

Off-topic PS2 nitpicking aside, what makes you say with any authority that Sasuke is ugly in 2nd-level seal? Yeah, I agree it's probably going to be along the lines of the rest of them, but you make it sound like you know something we don't. Mayhap you could enlighten us, tell us where you got that from?

Ok, a) In Naruto's last supers in the ps2 game, he summons gama bunta. The last of those supers (assuming success) shows a figure cloaked in black on top of gama bunta. Now everyone's first response would be Jiraiya, except for some obviously overlooked factors. Gama Bunta said noone had ridden on his head since the 4th hokage when Naruto summoned him, which means Jiraiya never has, so no reason to think he is now. Jiraiya said he could not control Gama Bunta, which is another indicator that he was not the one. Lastly, they already SHOWED Jiraiya on a different toad's head in game, and have no reason to disguise him in a veil of shadow if they have already went to the trouble of giving him a character model. That combined with the fact that Naruto was VERY confused by the person being on top of Gama Bunta seems to indicate it's not Jiraiya. So with all that mentioned, where did I POSSIBLY get the idea that it's the fourth? Simple, in actuality. First, and most importantly, assuming one does not enter the key combination as fast as physically possible, but takes a couple of seconds to do so, there will be a VERY clear picture of a closeup on the fourth hokage's face as the camera starts to zoom towards the figure, in a similar way to the unbelievably clear picture of Itachi in Sasuke's supers. Another hint is when the figure leaps off of Gama Bunta to finish off Gama Bunta's air juggle, there are many many sword slashes in the typical anime style, and it has been established that the fourth carries a sword. I even believe I've seen someone here who has a signature showing the fourth's outfit in completion.

b) On the subject of Sasuke's 2nd level curse seal being ugly, we have already SEEN the second level. He was transforming out of it when he left the coffin. It had a horrendously huge head of long white hair, and the skin was very demonic and decrepit looking just as all the other level 2 seals were. also, his facial shape was distorted somewhat, and basically looked like an ugly troll wearing Sasuke's outfit. It was in chapter 209 I believe, so go catch up.

All that stuff aside, it's also worth pointing out that Naruto has NEVER BEFORE used his clones as just clones. Therefore, there is no way he was going all out against Kimi when he made that many clones, as if he was, there would have been some kind of trick going on. I think Naruto was merely severely pissed off, and not thinking clearly. But then, that's me. It's worth noting that before Kimi's attack almost hit Naruto before Lee saved him, Naruto had dropped out of Kyuubi at the sight of Sasuke. This means that there was no guarantee whether or not Naruto would actually have lost, although it is more than likely he would have. As to those of you mentioning how Naruto beat Shuusaku (Gaara's demon) It's also worth noting that there were several things going for Naruto in that battle. A) Gaara's sand shield (THE ONLY THING that kept him from being beaten to a pulp by rock lee) was already down as he was transforming, leaving him vulnerable to naruto who at the time, for all he was worth, would never have EVER been able to pierce the sand shield, as he did not yet have the rasengan. B) Naruto had time to summon GAMA BUNTA, which Kimi would never have let him do.

Those things being said, without the sand shield, Rock Lee would quite easily have beaten Gaara before he was even done transforming, since it was established that Sasuke *WAS* faster than the demon gaara, and Sasuke was only about as fast as Rock Lee without the weights. Adding to this the fact that Sasuke has NOWHERE NEAR the stamina of Rock Lee (he was breathing heavily after hitting gaara only a couple of times in the final match, whereas Rock Lee ran around the entire arena several times, delivered hundreds of blows, and didn't even break a sweat) you can safely assume that Rock Lee would've taken the opportunity presented by a lack of sand shield, and beaten Gaara senseless. Ignoring that, there is no way that Rock Lee with all 5 gates open would not have COMPLETELY crushed Gaara without the sand shield, as the gourd's sand transformation is the only reason that Gaara wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like.. well.. sand.

People are under-estimating just how frightening Rock Lee was, because he lost to raw cheapness. That is just a general flaw of his fighting style. The fact is when it comes to Tai-Jutsu, Kimimaro has not been shown to have much if any more ability than Rock Lee did without the weights. He has been dodging Rock Lee in the last chapter, although barely, which shows that he is definately skilled in close combat, making him a potentially FUN match for Rock Lee. His Gaea seal has been shown to have the same properties as Sasuke's heaven curse seal did before he underwent a transformation to level 2, so it is already known that Kimimaro's curse seal is of the same type as the others, and it is quite obvious that if he is ALREADY almost dead, he definately has already acquired a curse seal level 2, as it was both mentioned that Sasuke had to 'die once' in order to gain the seal, and as it was mentioned by Kidoumaru (spider boy) that noone had brought his curse seal level 2 self as close to death as Neji did since Kimimaro had. Now you can either take this to mean that Kimimaro is so much more skillful than Kidoumaru (who in only a few minutes both determined Neji's weaknesses [ALL OF THEM] and exploited ALL OF THEM to his advantage. He was probably the 'Shikamaru' of the sound's four in terms of intellect, although nobody can compare to Shikamaru straightforward, obviously.) that he defeated Kimimaro's level 2 form with only a level 1 curse seal, or you can take it to mean that Kimimaro has a level 2 as well. Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal. This is just an assumption, but when his level 2 seal is shown in the manga, people will stop whining at me about this. Until then, feel free to debate it all you wish.

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by: Kalean
Those things being said, without the sand shield, Rock Lee would quite easily have beaten Gaara before he was even done transforming, since it was established that Sasuke *WAS* faster than the demon gaara, and Sasuke was only about as fast as Rock Lee without the weights. Adding to this the fact that Sasuke has NOWHERE NEAR the stamina of Rock Lee (he was breathing heavily after hitting gaara only a couple of times in the final match, whereas Rock Lee ran around the entire arena several times, delivered hundreds of blows, and didn't even break a sweat) you can safely assume that Rock Lee would've taken the opportunity presented by a lack of sand shield, and beaten Gaara senseless.
but you forget that sasuke fought gaara before using chidori (sasuke's limit is 3 chidori's, but kakashi said that if he uses more than 2, he risks the chance of dying from stamina/chakra loss. but sasuke still managed to do his first one which should tire him out somewhat) and then he not only chased gaara for a long time but also fought temari before facing gaara. ALSO, he had to deal with the curse seal. yes, it gives him more energy and power but it also exhausts him incredibly.

Ignoring that, there is no way that Rock Lee with all 5 gates open would not have COMPLETELY crushed Gaara without the sand shield, as the gourd's sand transformation is the only reason that Gaara wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like.. well.. sand.
yeah...i hate it when people say things like this. well, let's turn your argument around. here:
there is no way that Gaara with his sand would not have COMPLETELY crushed Rock Lee without his gates opened, as Lee's gates opening is the only reason that Lee wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like... well.. you get the point.

The fact is when it comes to Tai-Jutsu, Kimimaro has not been shown to have much if any more ability than Rock Lee did without the weights. He has been dodging Rock Lee in the last chapter, although barely, which shows that he is definately skilled in close combat, making him a potentially FUN match for Rock Lee.
lee has been in the story from the beginning, kimimaro was just introduced. what are you thinking.

His Gaea seal has been shown to have the same properties as Sasuke's heaven curse seal did before he underwent a transformation to level 2, so it is already known that Kimimaro's curse seal is of the same type as the others, and it is quite obvious that if he is ALREADY almost dead, he definately has already acquired a curse seal level 2, as it was both mentioned that Sasuke had to 'die once' in order to gain the seal, and as it was mentioned by Kidoumaru (spider boy) that noone had brought his curse seal level 2 self as close to death as Neji did since Kimimaro had. Now you can either take this to mean that Kimimaro is so much more skillful than Kidoumaru (who in only a few minutes both determined Neji's weaknesses [ALL OF THEM] and exploited ALL OF THEM to his advantage. He was probably the 'Shikamaru' of the sound's four in terms of intellect, although nobody can compare to Shikamaru straightforward, obviously.) that he defeated Kimimaro's level 2 form with only a level 1 curse seal, or you can take it to mean that Kimimaro has a level 2 as well.
no. <--- this applies to ALL of the points you stated; starting from gaia and heaven seal being same to kimimaro being able to turn to lvl 2.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.
i have no idea how one is able to come up with this assumption, even if it is an assumption.

This is just an assumption, but when his level 2 seal is shown in the manga, people will stop whining at me about this. Until then, feel free to debate it all you wish.
kimimaro hasn't even activated his seal yet. assuming that he has a lvl 2 is too much. personally, i think his seal is like tsunade's, just one stage.

check mate.

EDIT: sorry for such a long post, but i thought he deserved a well-thought out response for his long reply.

lasaire

Mon, 03-29-2004, 10:05 PM

Tsunade??! Tsunade doesn't have a seal. I think you mean Anko.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.

I think this was responding to Kidoumaru's remark when he was about to collapse at the end of his fight with Neji:

"Shit, I haven't been this close to death since Kimimaro...." (ch 198, pg 10)

However, this sentence trails off and is not finished, so we really don't know what Kidomaru meant. It could have been almost anything. Perhaps Kimimaro collapsed in the middle of a mission (due to his illness) and the team was nearly killed? Who knows.

I really think that it's too soon to tell anything in the Lee vs. Kimimaro fight. Wait a few weeks and things will become clear, I am sure.

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by: lasaire
Tsunade??! Tsunade doesn't have a seal. I think you mean Anko.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.

I think this was responding to Kidoumaru's remark when he was about to collapse at the end of his fight with Neji:

"Shit, I haven't been this close to death since Kimimaro...."

However, this sentence trails off and is not finished, so we really don't know what Kidomaru meant. It could have been almost anything. Perhaps Kimimaro collapsed in the middle of a mission (due to his illness) and the team was nearly killed? Who knows.

I really think that it's too soon to tell anything in the Lee vs. Kimimaro fight. Wait a few weeks and things will become clear, I am sure.
tsunade actually does have a seal. it's not a curse seal, however. she used it when she fought orochimaru and kabuto. she collects chakra on her forehead and she uses it to stimulate the production of various enzymes that accelerate her cell duplication rate for rapid reformation. so, she can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of her body.

anyway, yeah, i knew kalean meant that, but i was referring to how he is able to come up with the conclusion that kimimaro has a lvl 2 seal just from this sentence: "since kimimaro lacks neji's ability to emit chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to kidoumaru's massive arrow assult."

it just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: sometimes my replies seem somewhat offensive, but this is not the case for this thread.

Arctyc

Mon, 03-29-2004, 10:52 PM

B) Kakashi obviously learned how to open the gates from his observation of the Rock Lee fight. (Unless you can possibly conceive of a reason why he would reveal his sharingan when he realized that Rock Lee could open 5 gates, and an equally believable explanation for Kakashi's opening a gate while rock climbing.)

I think it more plausible that Kakashi knew how to open his Chakra gates long before that fight -- his discussion with Gai reveals that he already knew about the various gates before Lee started opening them. He may simply, like Gai, better know the consequences of opening those gates.

Mut

Mon, 03-29-2004, 11:08 PM

kakashi also could've known how to open up gates before he used his sharingan on lee. it's more feasible to believe that someone of kakashi's stature would know how to open a few gates. personally, i thought kakashi used his sharingan on lee to check out the chakra activity in his body.

if we are strictly talking about the manga, then nm, i don't think he does either.

moridin

Tue, 03-30-2004, 02:28 AM

Actually, Sasuke does not fight Temari in the manga...or at least, I believe he didn't

khaodessy

Tue, 03-30-2004, 09:56 PM

naaa she didnt. even if she did the results would of been the same she get her ass kicked

Raven

Wed, 03-31-2004, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by: Arctyc

B) Kakashi obviously learned how to open the gates from his observation of the Rock Lee fight. (Unless you can possibly conceive of a reason why he would reveal his sharingan when he realized that Rock Lee could open 5 gates, and an equally believable explanation for Kakashi's opening a gate while rock climbing.)

I think it more plausible that Kakashi knew how to open his Chakra gates long before that fight -- his discussion with Gai reveals that he already knew about the various gates before Lee started opening them. He may simply, like Gai, better know the consequences of opening those gates.
How could the Sharingan possibly copy the gate opening anyway? The Sharingan copies jutsus, doesn't it? Opening the gates isn't a jutsu, it's a physical ability that one can achieve within one's own body. He most likely unveiled his Sharingan eye simply so he could keep up with Lee's movements and properly watch the match.

Plus, I don't think that thing with Kakashi on the cliff face was a gate opening, I think he was just focusing his chakra to leap up the rest of the mountain.

jonny-mt

Wed, 03-31-2004, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by: KaleanOk, a) In Naruto's last supers in the ps2 game, he summons gama bunta. The last of those supers (assuming success) shows a figure cloaked in black on top of gama bunta. Now everyone's first response would be Jiraiya, except for some obviously overlooked factors. Gama Bunta said noone had ridden on his head since the 4th hokage when Naruto summoned him, which means Jiraiya never has, so no reason to think he is now. Jiraiya said he could not control Gama Bunta, which is another indicator that he was not the one. Lastly, they already SHOWED Jiraiya on a different toad's head in game, and have no reason to disguise him in a veil of shadow if they have already went to the trouble of giving him a character model. That combined with the fact that Naruto was VERY confused by the person being on top of Gama Bunta seems to indicate it's not Jiraiya. So with all that mentioned, where did I POSSIBLY get the idea that it's the fourth? Simple, in actuality. First, and most importantly, assuming one does not enter the key combination as fast as physically possible, but takes a couple of seconds to do so, there will be a VERY clear picture of a closeup on the fourth hokage's face as the camera starts to zoom towards the figure, in a similar way to the unbelievably clear picture of Itachi in Sasuke's supers. Another hint is when the figure leaps off of Gama Bunta to finish off Gama Bunta's air juggle, there are many many sword slashes in the typical anime style, and it has been established that the fourth carries a sword. I even believe I've seen someone here who has a signature showing the fourth's outfit in completion.

Ah, gotcha; see where you're coming from, and it makes sense. Just to correct, though, Gamabunta said that no one has ridden on his head since the Fourth, not besides the Fourth, and Jiraiya merely says he has trouble controlling Gamabunta, not that he can't do it. Let's face it, teaming up with your old teammate against Orochimaru is not exactly the best time to be test-driving a giant toad; Jiraiya has clearly done it as well, or he wouldn't be the Frog Hermit. That doesn't affect your point about that being the Fourth, though, so it stands.

b) On the subject of Sasuke's 2nd level curse seal being ugly, we have already SEEN the second level. He was transforming out of it when he left the coffin. It had a horrendously huge head of long white hair, and the skin was very demonic and decrepit looking just as all the other level 2 seals were. also, his facial shape was distorted somewhat, and basically looked like an ugly troll wearing Sasuke's outfit. It was in chapter 209 I believe, so go catch up.

Thank you kindly for the advice, but I am already well caught up. Considering the only picture we have of him in full Level 2 is a back shot on the top half of a single page, it's still too early to be quite that descriptive about him...all you see is white hair and darkened skin, the same kind of shade Lee has when opening the gates. Oh, and an ear. Judging from the others, I think it's a safe assumption that he's gonna be an uggo, but the way you had phrased it (and still phrase it) made it sound like you knew something the rest of us didn't. But if that's enough to convince you 100%, then that's fine by me....

JTD121

Wed, 03-31-2004, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by: AznPerson
Druken fist + limit gates = one unstoppable druken Lee =)

I whole-heartedly agree! I actually laughed out loud when I read that part about Lee using the Drunken Fist.

mainva | aptigo | JTD out

Wren

Thu, 04-01-2004, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by: SilentDevil
for all those ppl who said that kimimaro is chuunin lvl, or not beyond the jounin lvl, they are extremely wrong. the thing is, even the tayuya who is jounin lvl, is afraid of kimimaro. meaning that he obviously he mucccccch better than the 4 gate keepers of sound... and dont forget, the 4 sound guyz totally whupped some leaf JouNiN so.. how can u say kimimaro is below jounin lvl?

the next thing abt rock lee is that.. he drank alcohol; cos he mistake it for his medicine. and when he drinks alcohol he goes into a frenzy, in such a form, even gai is afraid of him.

last thing, regarding the on par thing, noticed everyone SUDDENLY had some new special ultimate moves or something, and manages to beat the jounins? thats because this is a MANGA it doesnt neccessarily have to make 100% sense, of course seeing the main characters, suddenly have nice skillz, and whupping ultra strong people, this would make the manga much nicer to read, thats why the author did that.

err, sorry to remind you, but they didtn whip the leaf jounins; like ive said a thousand times THEY WERE DEPLETED JOUNINS, and if you A, are just finishin another mission and are quite drained, and tired going back and come across 4 warriors totin level 2 curse seals fresh for a fight what do you expect to happen? and they still almost got whupped by the 2 jounins anyway; so the sound 4 arent really taht powerful, and kimimaro im sure is strong, but they definatley arent jounin level; if they were i dont think they woulda been concerned bout fightin the ANBU when the sound was assaultin leaf, and callin 2 jounins a *heavy load* after gettin the crap knocked out of them. ajd kimi doenst necessarlily have to be jounin level; bloodline limit just means a certain advantage that in some situations is useful, whil in others its not---yea he is stronger than Mizuki, but put that crap that naruto pulled vs. lets say Kakashi or anyone else, and if you think about it, its basilly an army of Naruto, (bsicaly regular naruto cuz its divided by like a 1000 times iwth the kyuubi chakra), and vs. an enemy that is skilled enough to fight somethin like that that was probably a bad move by naruto. basically he was guaranteeing no hits doing that vs. a skilled enemy, and his usual brute force charge doesnt work against a skilled opponent. he caught other people becuase they were A, caught off guard, and B HE DIDNT DIVIDE HIS STRENGTH a thousand fold weakening each unit basically. sorry for the long rambling tangent, but eh had to be said :-P

Mut

Thu, 04-01-2004, 03:21 AM

1. none of the sound's four are jounin level.
2. kimimaro *might* be jounin level. but we don't know that yet. then again, we can speculate that he's real strong since tayuya (who is actually a pretty decent ninja) is deathly afraid of kimimaro. also, someone like tayuya wouldn't let someone get away if they threatened to her life. so, i'm guessing kimimaro is around jounin level.
3. gai is an idiot. someone as clam and collected as kakashi would've just been like "eh, lee gets some what rowdy when he drinks" and ended it there instead of going "OH MY GOD, WE'RE ALL FUCKED LEE IS DRINKING HOLY SHITFUCKSLAKEKLALIDJOLWIAOJDOHIAHDIDYHAKEI'MSTUPID !!!" personally, i think lee drinking and going crazy is overrated. i'm sure he goes berserk, but not enough to cause TOTAL DESTRUCTION as gai is making it out to be.

moridin

Thu, 04-01-2004, 04:13 AM

I highly doubt Kimimaro is Jounin level. Kabuto is jounin level. Kabuto is not even worried about Kimimaro. He compares him, while using the curse seal, to Sasuke (Level 2 curse seal). Now both, while using their curse seal, are definitely strong, but not near jounin. Maybe good ANBU level.

Arctyc

Thu, 04-01-2004, 05:54 AM

3. gai is an idiot. someone as clam and collected as kakashi would've just been like "eh, lee gets some what rowdy when he drinks" and ended it there instead of going "OH MY GOD, WE'RE ALL FUCKED LEE IS DRINKING HOLY SHITFUCKSLAKEKLALIDJOLWIAOJDOHIAHDIDYHAKEI'MSTUPID !!!" personally, i think lee drinking and going crazy is overrated. i'm sure he goes berserk, but not enough to cause TOTAL DESTRUCTION as gai is making it out to be.

He leveled a farkin' tavern! He knocked Gai out! That's nasty. He got the drop on Gai. I'll say it again. When in drunk mode, Rock Lee beat Gai.

I love this, because it is yet another homage Kishimoto is making to the great martial Arts stars and their films, in this case Jackie Chan and Yuen Wo-Pei from Drunken Master 1 & 2.

Boogster

Thu, 04-01-2004, 06:02 AM

Jackie Chan was awesome in those films.

Anyway, in essence, drunken boxing doesn't appeal to me. Though it provides some comic relief, it is frankly unbelievable, and seems to discredit the idea of martial arts as a skilled practice.

Arctyc

Thu, 04-01-2004, 06:12 AM

Anyway, in essence, drunken boxing doesn't appeal to me. Though it provides some comic relief, it is frankly unbelievable, and seems to discredit the idea of martial arts as a skilled practice.

http://www.chinavoc.com/kungfu/schools/cata_zui.asp
http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_galaxy/Northern/Drunken.html
http://www.geocities.com/drunk_monk_funk/martial/drunk.html

I've posted a bit about this in other threads, but as a style, Drunken Boxing is very real, and very challenging. (My current system of study, Eagle Claw Kung Fu, has one Drunken Boxing form, and it is the last one to be learned.)

Iznogoud

Thu, 04-01-2004, 04:21 PM

No...They said they only left him with no one looking, the 2nd day after the operation!
That means it IS the 2nd day he's ok...
He couldn't train before.

Mgslee

Thu, 04-01-2004, 04:25 PM

Anyway, in essence, drunken boxing doesn't appeal to me. Though it provides some comic relief, it is frankly unbelievable, and seems to discredit the idea of martial arts as a skilled practice.

But does Sexy no jutsu or Harem no justsu?

honestly, this series was lacking fun through out this whole entire arc and its not really Naruto with out the fun / funny stuff. I think the Drunken Boxing idea is good, the fact Rock Lee showed up from no where is not

Xceleration

Fri, 04-02-2004, 02:06 AM

For all those idiots who think Kimimaro is some kind of godly warrior just because he's Orochimaru's first choice, and think that Sasuke is really strong, THEY AREN'T. They are definately not jounin level, and neither are the Sound 4. All of you people who think the sound 4 are really strong just because they beat 2 jounins that were low on chakra with a level 2 seal, they got lucky that the jounins were at a weak state. The sound 4 are at Chuunin level at most, and might be near jounin with level 2 seals, but are not anymore then that. Kimimaro isn't godly, Sasuke isn't some super genius, he's just from a genius clan. Rock Lee does have chances against Kimimaro... and to remind you people again, Rock Paper Scissors!

Assertn

Fri, 04-02-2004, 02:23 AM

also keep in mind that the only reason why kimimaru is able to move about is because of his strong will to resist the conditions his body had recieved......you can only go so far on will alone though

kaigan

Fri, 04-02-2004, 02:30 AM

i don't think naruto was using hte kybui's power when he was fighting kimi.

Mut

Fri, 04-02-2004, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by: Arctyc
He leveled a farkin' tavern! He knocked Gai out! That's nasty. He got the drop on Gai. I'll say it again. When in drunk mode, Rock Lee beat Gai.
ok, he leveled a tavern. nothing a regular ninja can't do.

he knocked out gai. wow, that says a lot. gai is retarded. he is an awesome ninja but he is also an idiot. i bet you gai was like "OMFG LEE PLZ BE CAREFUL DON'T DO ANYTHING TOO CRAZY" chasing lee around trying to make sure he's safe WHILE gai was drinking and i'm sure when gai tried to stop lee, lee accidentally knocked gai in the head. some people make too much of big deal out of gai losing his consciousness. it could've happen from too much drinking or getting knocked out by lee. if you think lee knocked out gai because gai couldn't fight back then you must be crazy.

Originally posted by: Xceleration
For all those idiots who think Kimimaro is some kind of godly warrior just because he's Orochimaru's first choice, and think that Sasuke is really strong, THEY AREN'T. They are definately not jounin level, and neither are the Sound 4. All of you people who think the sound 4 are really strong just because they beat 2 jounins that were low on chakra with a level 2 seal, they got lucky that the jounins were at a weak state. The sound 4 are at Chuunin level at most, and might be near jounin with level 2 seals, but are not anymore then that. Kimimaro isn't godly, Sasuke isn't some super genius, he's just from a genius clan. Rock Lee does have chances against Kimimaro... and to remind you people again, Rock Paper Scissors!
kimimaro is definitely not a godly warrior, but he is definitely someone that can whoop ass. if orochimaru picked sasuke for his sharingan ability and his potential (which is more than itachi, WHICH is insane) then you can pretty much assume that sasuke is going to be one hell of a ninja. now, with that being said, sasuke was orochimaru's second choice. which means kimimaro must have had the upper hand on sasuke before he became ill. kimimaro (without the illness) is suppose to be a greater ninja than sasuke who has potential to be greater than itachi. even though kimimaro is ill, that shouldn't make him useless or anything. kimimaro is still a powerful ninja. lee does have a chance to beat kimimaro, but both have disadvantages. first, we know that lee just came out of surgery. second, lee is drunk. he may become this berserk character when drunk, but that also has a negative effect. on to kimimaro. we know that he has an illness, but we haven't seen any signs of him feeling any pain or looking uncomfortable in any way. he just got done with finishing off 1000 kyubi naruto clones and had a little scirmish with lee. NONE of them landed a single hit. on to sasuke. there are no super genius clans, only people from the clan who are super geniuses. and if you consider itachi a genius, then sasuke has to be a bigger genius considering he has more potential than him, even though we haven't seen most of it yet. and what the hell is rock paper scissors.

Originally posted by: kaigan
i don't think naruto was using hte kybui's power when he was fighting kimi.
what? did you not see how narut's pupils changed, his fangs grew, and his finger nails became claws? which happened when he fought haku?

Raven

Fri, 04-02-2004, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: kaigan
i don't think naruto was using hte kybui's power when he was fighting kimi.
what? did you not see how narut's pupils changed, his fangs grew, and his finger nails became claws? which happened when he fought haku?
O_o I don't know how anyone could miss that.... did you even read it?

BTW, Kim might have been feeling pain or discomfort, he may just be putting on a brave face. He could collapse any second but never show it.

You know how these badasses are, they try to never show weakness.

kyuubi

Fri, 04-02-2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
also keep in mind that the only reason why kimimaru is able to move about is because of his strong will to resist the conditions his body had recieved......you can only go so far on will alone though

If you can only go so far on will, Naruto would've been dead along time ago....

Strider

Fri, 04-02-2004, 12:49 PM

Sasuke does not have greater potential than Itachi. He is Orochimaru's draft pick because there is no way for him to ever get Itachi. End statement.

Ninja vanish.

Mut

Fri, 04-02-2004, 01:09 PM

but then why would orochimaru say that sasuke has more potential than itachi? i know you had to have read that.

Death BOO Z

Fri, 04-02-2004, 01:23 PM

Orochimaru wants Sasuke to believe that he (sasuke) can defeat Itachi if he goes with him (orochimaru), so making Sasuke believe that he has untapped potential and that the leaf is slowing him down, will cause Sasuke to join the sound for more power, and then Orochimaru would be able to take over his body...

Orochimaru has a shitload of reasons to lie to Sasuke...

Strider

Fri, 04-02-2004, 01:37 PM

Right. I dislike Sasuke, but I won't knock his skills. With his Sharingan, Sasuke's potential is almost limitless, but it is not to exceed's his elder brother's.

Everything Orochimaru has stated to the young Uchiha is simply additive comments in coercing the impressionable child. The hunger for power in Sasuke is evident to almost everyone, so to ease the boy into siding with him [Orochimaru], the Sannin must feed into that by whatever means necessary. The supporting comments, the seal, etc. It is all the necessary steps to take for Orochimaru to acquire Sasuke easier.

It is much simpler to have him [Sasuke] go to Orochimaru, rather than fight off Konoha for him, no?

Ninja vanish!

hiten mitsurugi

Fri, 04-02-2004, 04:56 PM

Why is Lee on par with Kimmimaro?
First, you have to ask yourself who you would consider to be on par with Kimimaro.
Lets say you said, "Sasuke could beat Kimimaro." Well, here are the reasons why Rock Lee would be on Par with Kimimaro.

Rock Lee beat the crap out of Sasuke (when they met each other).
Rock Lee is faster than all genins, all chunnins, and some jounins.
Lee's taijutsu and speed makes a deadly combination.

Lets say you said, "Naruto could beat Kimimaro." Here are some reasons why Rock Lee would be on Par with Kimimaro.

Rock Lee KO'd Naruto the first time they met.
Rock Lee is 10000000000 times better at taijutsu then Naruto.
Rock Lee is faster then Naruto. (I believe that Kyubi-Naruto is faster than Lee without weights, in fact I don't believe that anyone is faster than Kyubi-Naruto. I'll just have to wait and see.)

Yes, there are some opponents that don't pair up well against Rock Lee. For example, Neji, Gaara, and Naruto. Neji is a close combat person. Lee is also a close combat person. Lee will lose in this battle because the gentle style fist can overcome Lee's iron fist style. Gaara, is a bad match for Lee simply because his defense and ability to attack from a distance. His attacks keep Rock Lee at bay and that makes Rock Lee unable to attack. Naruto is just too powerful now for Rock Lee, and especially in Kyubi mode.

However, Kimimaro doesn't make that list of bad match ups for Rock Lee. Kimimaro also seems like a close combat person. He hasn't shown us any jutsus (genjutsu or ninjutsu) besides his physical dance attacks. This means that Rock Lee isn't at a disadvantage. Both are close quarter combat types, both rely on speed, stamina, power. Kimimaro may have the power, but with ailing health, Rock Lee will be at an advantage with speed and stamina.

Anyways, Rock Lee is on Par with Kimimaro!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MightyDustLoop

Fri, 04-02-2004, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
Why is Lee on par with Kimmimaro?
First, you have to ask yourself who you would consider to be on par with Kimimaro.
Lets say you said, "Sasuke could beat Kimimaro." Well, here are the reasons why Rock Lee would be on Par with Kimimaro.

Rock Lee beat the crap out of Sasuke (when they met each other).
Rock Lee is faster than all genins, all chunnins, and some jounins.
Lee's taijutsu and speed makes a deadly combination.

Lets say you said, "Naruto could beat Kimimaro." Here are some reasons why Rock Lee would be on Par with Kimimaro.

Rock Lee KO'd Naruto the first time they met.
Rock Lee is 10000000000 times better at taijutsu then Naruto.
Rock Lee is faster then Naruto. (I believe that Kyubi-Naruto is faster than Lee without weights, in fact I don't believe that anyone is faster than Kyubi-Naruto. I'll just have to wait and see.)

Yes, there are some opponents that don't pair up well against Rock Lee. For example, Neji, Gaara, and Naruto. Neji is a close combat person. Lee is also a close combat person. Lee will lose in this battle because the gentle style fist can overcome Lee's iron fist style. Gaara, is a bad match for Lee simply because his defense and ability to attack from a distance. His attacks keep Rock Lee at bay and that makes Rock Lee unable to attack. Naruto is just too powerful now for Rock Lee, and especially in Kyubi mode.

However, Kimimaro doesn't make that list of bad match ups for Rock Lee. Kimimaro also seems like a close combat person. He hasn't shown us any jutsus (genjutsu or ninjutsu) besides his physical dance attacks. This means that Rock Lee isn't at a disadvantage. Both are close quarter combat types, both rely on speed, stamina, power. Kimimaro may have the power, but with ailing health, Rock Lee will be at an advantage with speed and stamina.

Anyways, Rock Lee is on Par with Kimimaro!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You forgot to mention Rock Lee is sloshed, and as ridiculous as that is, it would make sense that even he has a natural ability. It would make sense why it was never used before if it's uncontrollable and why it's not something you'd think about resorting to.

It's a little on the "ridiculous" side, but I think in the long run something like that makes more sense than say, a demon fox in my stomach or an eye that copies all movement in form and chakra.

Mut

Fri, 04-02-2004, 05:40 PM

how can anyone say that sasuke won't be a better ninja than his brother? who the hell is gonna beat itachi then?

i'll be waiting for some ass clown to say "naruto" or something else that's equally stupid.

and why are people still bringing up the fact that rock lee beat up naruto and sasuke before they were actually good ninjas? it was freaking clear that sasuke and naruto had no chances against ninjas like lee and neji, but now they have surpassed both of them. forget about what happened between lee and sasuke, it's totally irrelevant now, sasuke is a completely different character while lee remained the same (maybe gotten worse cuz he's still recovering). i really hope kishimoto doesn't make rock lee be on par with kimimaro. it would be just stupid for a person who just came out of surgery and is also drunk to beat up someone who is hyped as kimimaro is. then again, it would also be stupid for rock lee to show up all of the sudden and then get beat too. THEN again, it would be also stupid if they're fight didn't have a proper finish...if they tie, it'd be stupid.

EDIT: i wrote the word 'stupid' too many times. how stupid.

Raven

Fri, 04-02-2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
it was freaking clear that sasuke and naruto had no chances against ninjas like lee and neji, but now they have surpassed both of them. forget about what happened between lee and sasuke, it's totally irrelevant now, sasuke is a completely different character while lee remained the same (maybe gotten worse cuz he's still recovering).
I couldn't agree more. People keep bringing this up but it was so long ago. I don't want to make comparisons to DBZ but it's like saying "Radditz beat Goku so easily, so how could Goku have a chance against Cell?" Characters progress, but in this case Lee hasn't progressed as he's been out of it due to injury. Sasuke and Naruto have both gotten a hell of a lot stronger since their battle with Lee all that time ago.

Gods_Son

Sat, 04-03-2004, 01:32 AM

yeah, it's like saying Naruto was always better than Sasuke because he beat him in the beginning episodes where he tied him by tricking him with the shadow clone technique. In reality, throughout the early episodes Sasuke could've killed Naruto, we just needed time for stuff to progress.

Kalean

Sat, 04-03-2004, 02:11 AM

|SPOILERS FOR 211 INCLUDED|

Ok, let's just cover this subject very quickly. Sasuke has not shown any EVIDENCE of greater potential than Itachi, since Itachi led the anbu at 14. If Sasuke has greater potential than that, he's certainly been wasting it, and since his entire goal in life is to GET more powerful, then there's very little likelihood he's close to that potential, since without this curse seal, he wouldn't have been capable of being the leader of the Anbu. Even with level 1, I doubt he would be. He's hardly got the right mindset for that job either, whilst Itachi does. Itachi has the mind of a leader and strategist. Sasuke has the mind of a fighter. At least as shown thus far. We'll see if Sasuke's 2nd curse seal level (Why so ugly? Maybe because Sasuke is so ugly inside with his desire for vengeance consuming him?) can make him seem formidable in comparison to what we could imagine Itachi being at during that age.

Back on the topic of this thread, Rock Lee was obviously designed to be one of the most impressive characters in the manga, for those who weren't paying attention earlier. The Drunken Fist is actually a name given to several different techniques, from Chinese Monkey Kung fu, to the more traditional 'legend of the drunken master' style. However, one thing that styles sharing that name have in common is that they are all some of the most potentially frightening martial arts styles in the world today. Unpredictable, sudden, and deadly, they rank amongst the most dangerous styles that anyone wields. Comparing Lee's straightforward previous style and his (admittedly hard to swallow) sudden mastery of the 'drunken fist' (which thus far looks to be a combination of said styles) is somewhat like comparing a broadsword to a chain and sickle. The broadsword definately has raw strength going for it, but a skilled chain/sickle user is going to be a lot scarier when the scythe is ripping you apart from behind as you focus on the weighted opposite end of the chain coming at you from your front. The difference tends to be high, so when asking 'how can lee be on par with kimimaro?' the answer is very simple. Lee is better at close range combat. By a lot. Enough said.

On to Kimimaro |SPOILERS FOR 211| and his frightening abilities. In his own way, Kimimaro's complete control over his bones that is evidenced in 211 is almost as unpredictable as the drunken fist style. However, it should be noted that fighting with one's own bones is a very dangerous thing. For example, by using his rib cage bones to attack Rock Lee as he did in 211, leaves only muscle and skin between his vital organs and Rock Lee, which means that one direct hit from Lee into the chest area would cause it to cave in, instantly killing Kimi. We'll assume that this serious vulnerability is compensated by the large offensive capabilities he's trading for it, but in the end, Kimimaro seems to be pushing himself harder than he should, considering his condition. Rock Lee is on the road to recovery, whilst Kimi is on the road to death. Pushing themselves further is going to lead Kimi towards a loss a lot faster than it will lead Rock Lee to one. Therefore, if there is any serious fight that Rock Lee has a shot at winning, this is most likely it.

Mut

Sat, 04-03-2004, 02:55 AM

we don't know that lee is a better taijutsu or close combat fighter. but i will be agreeing to it for now since we haven't seen too much of kimimaro.

as for kimimaro's weakness of having no protection between his skin and vital organs, i think he has extra bones. as you can see in the earlier pages (before his ribs pop out) kimimaro's left hand is limp, then becomes erect, and then multiple sharp-ended bones protrude out from his forearm while the forearm is still erect. i think this is the same case with his ribs also. he still has his ribs, but extra bones popped out to attack.

khaodessy

Sat, 04-03-2004, 09:19 AM

ya i have to go with that too. i think his bloodline allows him to grow bones. also being a natural user doesnt mean lee is a master. 211 is one of the best fight chptrs i seen. each blow of lees look like they hurt because each time it sent kimi backwards. i think in one scene lee did a three hit combo. his speed doesnt seem affected by his drunken state but his flexiblity is amazing. i dont think he is thinking as he is fighting just using his instinks. if its not that then he lied when he said he doesnt have the eye to coonter at high speed when he dodging sword swings at very close range making kimi look like a damn fool then knock the shit out of him bending backwards. next chpter i think we will see if kimi has a lvl 2 seal. lee must of done some serious serious training b4 he got hurt if his lvl of skill is still this high. his fighting skills must of been real high and the time off allowed everyone elses fighting skills to reach his and put his back a bit. out of the whole chptr kimi last attack is the only one that even scratched lee. his boney arm didnt even faze lee and if it wasnt for his ribs he would of been lees punching bag.

Raven

Sun, 04-04-2004, 12:03 AM

Kalean, I think Sasuke will surpass Itachi, it will just take a while, he's just a bit of a late bloomer. It would be a boring plot angle if he was already stronger, of course he's going to seem weaker at the start.

Just because he hasn't done the same things as what Itachi had done at that age doesn't mean he (Sasuke) can't ever surpass him. That's what this series is all about, overcoming the odds, the underdog winning.

Gods_Son

Sun, 04-04-2004, 02:39 PM

yeah, Sasuke will surpass Itachi eventually. Most of his life has been used on this one goal, he hasn't developed as fast as Itachi, but he has more drive to get stronger. If he was never gonna reach Itachi's level, then they might as well have killed him because he'd just be waste of life.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by: CmDr_RavEn

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
it was freaking clear that sasuke and naruto had no chances against ninjas like lee and neji, but now they have surpassed both of them. forget about what happened between lee and sasuke, it's totally irrelevant now, sasuke is a completely different character while lee remained the same (maybe gotten worse cuz he's still recovering).
I couldn't agree more. People keep bringing this up but it was so long ago. I don't want to make comparisons to DBZ but it's like saying "Radditz beat Goku so easily, so how could Goku have a chance against Cell?" Characters progress, but in this case Lee hasn't progressed as he's been out of it due to injury. Sasuke and Naruto have both gotten a hell of a lot stronger since their battle with Lee all that time ago.

It's called supporting the premise with events that happened in the past, especially since history repeats itself. More importantly the thread wasn't about Lee fighting Sasuke. The thread is about Lee being on par with Kimimaro. The point is Lee is at least on par with Sasuke and Naruto, so if someone was to just say that Sasuke would have been a better matchup. Lee would be just as good of a match up since he's at least as good as sasuke or better.

But seriously, how has Sasuke gotten better? What new jutsus has he learned? Chidori would be too slow for Lee. Sasuke hasn't grown much except in the "self-fulfilling prophecy" area. Naruto has grown immensly. Lee is a worthy match for Kimimaro, that's the point.

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 01:07 AM

if you compare the progress of lee with sasuke, then sasuke's progress outweighs lee's by a ton because of the fact that sasuke has achieved lee's speed without the weights in a month or so (or however long it was). has lee gotten ANY better since the last time he has fought? absolutely not. he has been in recovery mode ever since he got his bones wrecked. as a matter of fact, lee might have regressed from his former state. it'd be sooo stupid if he got better after receiving a life threatening surgery.

when sasuke and lee first fought sasuke sucked compared to lee, no doubt. the main reason why sasuke lost to lee is because sasuke, even though he had sharingan, could not keep up with lee's quickness and speed. but now, sasuke is at level 2 now. which just means that he has gotten stronger and faster since his fight with gaara. lee couldn't even hurt gaara, sasuke made him bleed and turn into his demon form.

the point is, lee is now overall weaker than sasuke and should not be on par with kimimaro even though he matches up well (since they are both taijutsu oriented).

Harageki

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:33 AM

as said before, its extremely hard to compare characters in Naruto, like it is in the real world. Out here, someone IS stronger/weaker then someone else, full stop, no arguement. In there, however, its like rock paper scissor - something cancels something else out. Like Lee versus Gaara, it was prob the worst matchup Lee could have had, thanks to Gaara`s unique ability. The whole reason they`re `on par` in this fight, is because they`re both taijutsu orientated, and Taijutsu is Lee`s forte. Tho, I dont actually think they`re ON PAR, thats a little too much, since Kimi has level 2, etc. But the point is, Lee has a great chance because of this matchup.

Boogster

Mon, 04-05-2004, 12:03 PM

I don't like Lee's sudden mastery of the dubious 'drunken-fist' style. However, I can see how this match-up is perfect for Lee's, in this condition.

I<3TenTen

Mon, 04-05-2004, 01:06 PM

volume74 page9 ... Enough said. Discussion Close
Battle won =)
Rock lee > kimmimaro

sangai

Mon, 04-05-2004, 01:09 PM

im sure you ment volume 24, page 9. and what chapter

if your talkin about 211, if i recal all lee did was land a kick and that was it kimimaro hadn't even activated his cursed seal, now that he has, he will have a boost in chakra and the abilitiy to use his blood lime to a greater limit. the bones are damgerous and put lee in a bad spot.

I<3TenTen

Mon, 04-05-2004, 01:16 PM

Oppsie
I meant Chapter 79 page 8 hehe sorry for the confusion

Vagabond

Mon, 04-05-2004, 01:45 PM

What about it? It just explains iron fist and gentle fist.

Assertn

Mon, 04-05-2004, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by: kyuubi

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
also keep in mind that the only reason why kimimaru is able to move about is because of his strong will to resist the conditions his body had recieved......you can only go so far on will alone though

If you can only go so far on will, Naruto would've been dead along time ago....

not necessarily
naruto's will gives him power that is certainly within his grasp to reach, having the kyubi and all. But if naruto had no kyubi inside him, as well as a body that apparently suffered something major, then I dont think will alone will get him very far. Take lee's case for example: his will was so strong that even when he was unconscious, he was still standing to fight gaara......but do you think that if he actually DID attempt to fight gaara again that he would be able to do anything to him? There ARE physical limits that cant just be broken entirely

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by: I<3TenTen
Oppsie
I meant Chapter 79 page 8 hehe sorry for the confusion

this doesn't prove shit.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
if you compare the progress of lee with sasuke, then sasuke's progress outweighs lee's by a ton because of the fact that sasuke has achieved lee's speed without the weights in a month or so (or however long it was). has lee gotten ANY better since the last time he has fought? absolutely not. he has been in recovery mode ever since he got his bones wrecked. as a matter of fact, lee might have regressed from his former state. it'd be sooo stupid if he got better after receiving a life threatening surgery.

when sasuke and lee first fought sasuke sucked compared to lee, no doubt. the main reason why sasuke lost to lee is because sasuke, even though he had sharingan, could not keep up with lee's quickness and speed. but now, sasuke is at level 2 now. which just means that he has gotten stronger and faster since his fight with gaara. lee couldn't even hurt gaara, sasuke made him bleed and turn into his demon form.

the point is, lee is now overall weaker than sasuke and should not be on par with kimimaro even though he matches up well (since they are both taijutsu oriented).

1. Sasuke is somewhere near Lee's speed. We don't know how far or close that is. But since he isn't faster than Lee, it doesn't prove that he has progressed more than Lee. Granted, Sasuke trained his tail off to attain the speed he has now.

2. Yes Sasuke has a level 2 seal now, but according to data gathered on the other people who have level 2 seals. The level 2 seals don't amount to much. For example, Chouji beat big guy (don't know his name) by eating a red pill, Neji beat spider guy (level 2) with his jyuken technique, Akamaru is giving the twins (level 2) a run for there money, Shika is giving Tayuya (level 2) a lesson in education. Who's to say that Rock Lee can't beat Kimimaro by using the drunken fist style. Will it sound as absurd as using a red pill, or sending chakra up a spider wire, or pissing in someones eye, or using byaringan? The answer would be a resounding "no." It isn't less absurd than anything thats happened the last few episodes. The thing is, we've seen what a level 2 seal can do and its not all that impressive, besides we haven't seen what Sasuke can do in level 2 to make any assumptions yet.

3. It wouldn't be stupid at all if he got better after a life threatening situation. The situation presents a great opportunity for Kishimoto to give Lee more attributes (it is a manga after all). For example, during the operation, Tsunade discovered why Lee couldn't use chakra well and fixed that (kind of like how Jaraiya saw the seal that Oro put on Naruto and fixed it). That would make Lee less of a one dimensional character. This fight would make a great way to introduce the new Lee, Kimimaro can go level 2 and Lee can use nin and gen. I think that would be awsome, but if Lee stays one dimensional, that's Okay with me too. Drunken fist has already added to his arsenal of fist styles (taijutsu) and that alone makes him much more interesting.

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 04:08 PM

it's absolutely stupid if lee became stronger (health-wise) the night after receiving such surgery which has a 50/50 chance of death. do you not understand this? it's a manga after all but still, this is so stupid. where is lee's recovery time? does he not need it? wtf? we might as well label lee as the strongest character in the story cuz he's just like goku, someone who becomes stronger from recovery or a fight. the way i see it, the only real way for lee to win is if kimimaro's illness fucks him up during the fight.

and letting lee use nin and gen would just equally stupid considering his reason for being in the show is that he is suppose to become a great ninja even with his inability to use nin and gen.

EDIT: for not being able to make assumptions on sasuke's lvl 2...am i the only person that realizes that sasuke is an overall better ninja than lee and will always be from now on? lee had his 15 min of fame early in the story, now it's more focused on sasuke and naruto. of course, lee is better at taijutsu than sasuke, but sasuke's nin and gen makes up for it. and about the speed thing...IF sasuke was about the same speed as lee was without the weights (it must be pretty close since you wouldn't say someones' abilities are about the same if they are far apart), then isn't it obvious that sasuke must've increased in all areas since he is at level 2 now? he had about the same speed with lee without the weights before using lvl 1 curse seal, so he's gotta be faster now with lvl 2.

EDIT: we're going pretty OT right now, so i'll add this. it seems that somehow lee and kimimaro are pretty evenly match (which i still think is stupid). lee looks as if he has NO discomfort from the surgery he received not too long ago and neither does kimimaro even with his illness. i can agree that either one of them losing is dumb because of all the hype (kimimaro) and the heroic rescue entrance (lee). but i still believe that kimimaro should win if it was gonna go one way or another.

and why don't the 11 guests who are reading this forum post something?

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
EDIT: for not being able to make assumptions on sasuke's lvl 2...am i the only person that realizes that sasuke is an overall better ninja than lee and will always be from now on? lee had his 15 min of fame early in the story, now it's more focused on sasuke and naruto. of course, lee is better at taijutsu than sasuke, but sasuke's nin and gen makes up for it. and about the speed thing...IF sasuke was about the same speed as lee was without the weights (it must be pretty close since you wouldn't say someones' abilities are about the same if they are far apart), then isn't it obvious that sasuke must've increased in all areas since he is at level 2 now? he had about the same speed with lee without the weights before using lvl 1 curse seal, so he's gotta be faster now with lvl 2.

totally right, let me reinforce that.

When Sasuke just got the lvl 1 seal, he was able to carry both Sakura and Naruto, and to escape Zaku's ultimate air blow skill, without any troubles. that was when he was still 'slow'.
now, he's about the same speed of lee (about means almost equal, just like my cat is about the same speed of any other domestic house cat), and not only that he has a seal, it's also a lvl 2 seal, which gives you TEN times your original strentgh (so it probably includes speed), which means that Sasuke now is FASTER than every other genin, and most of the jounins...

I'd like to say once again that Lee's appearence was completly uncalled for, you can say he's there to fight Kimimaru and give Naruto an option to fight Sasuke, but then you make Kimimaru unrellevent, since he already is messing up the plotline, and if he loses here, it means that the story could be the same if Sasuke escaped while Tayuya was holding the bucket and Shikamaru would have been the one to order Naruto to go after Sasuke.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 05:24 PM

I hope you don't really think that they actually opened (physically cutting) Lee up for this operation, because that just isn't the case. It is more likely that Lady Tsunade just put her palms upon Lee's back and performed somekind of surgery that way. You know, like they normally do in mangas (scalpel punches, etc). That's what enables the fast recovery time.

Sasuke doesn't have nin except for the katon thing and absolutely no genjutsu (did you man lack of nin and gen). How does this make up for lack of speed?

Hey, you're allowed to think that it's stupid.

But I think that the best way to speed up the story line was to bring in Rock Lee.
1. We won't have a separate story line about Rock Lee's operation.
2. The battle free's up Naruto. Rock Lee fights Kimimaro thus allowing Naruto to fight/recapture Sasuke. This way we won't see a long battle between Naruto and Kimimaro, and then another one between Naruto and Sasuke.
3. Someone else must of came with Rock Lee, like Hinata or Shino. They might attempt to help Shika or Kiba. This makes those fights more interesting and believable. Because we can't all believe that level 2 seals are that weak.

Answer to post below:
1. Those ninjutsu moves are the basics. That's the whole point, Sasuke doesn't have any strong ninjutsu except for the fire thing (katon something) and chidori.
2. Exactly, long recovery time, do you want to see Sakura bring Lee a flower for the next ten or so episodes. Remember, if they didn't have to cut Lee open, then there's no reason for not having a short recovery. It's believable in manga terms. Gets Rock Lee up and running.
3. Yes Tayuya holding the bucket would have been simpler, but that leaves the story telling of Lee's operation and recovery. We don't want that; at least I don't.
4. That's because maybe the level 2 seals aren't as strong as you expected it to be. If genins can take out level 2 seals, then Sasuke isn't a match for Naruto at all.
5. Kishimoto squats on his readers all the time. What happens is that there may be so many things that have happened that the writers truly don't remember. So then they write about something that shouldn't be plausible.

The biggest one for me is how the hell can Oro say that Itachi is stronger than himself. When everything that we've seen would say otherwise. I know that the plot is to have Sasuke kill off Itachi and in order to avoid the question, "Why doesn't Oro just take Itachi's body, he is far better than Sasuke?" The writers put in a qoute "he is stronger than myself." That's Kishimoto shitting on readers. He could have came up with some other excuse, because when compared, Oro is way stronger than Itachi.

Or what about the existence of Hunter Nins. Why didn't Konoha send out Hunter Nins for Sasuke? Why did Kishimoto even explain the purpose of Hunter Nins, if he wasn't going to use them. That's Kishimoto shitting on readers.

Or what about Shika, I don't care how smart you are. If you don't have the skills to go along with the brains, or if you have the skills but don't have the brains. You're as good as dead, if you fight someone just fairly strong.

So Kishimoto shits on us all the time.

FYI, Mutato
Either the genins suck or they're powerful. You can't have it both ways. If they are indeed powerful as you have suggested in your post, and Lee is a genin, then according to your own statement; Lee is a match (on par) with Kimimaro.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 06:00 PM

You missed out some points...

Tsunde herself said it's a risky operation (50% chances of death, with the best doctoer) and that there'll be some long recovery time... the guy has bone shards in his SPINE, it's not just a simple operation, even for Tsunde.

An operation arc? aren't you confusing this with ER? showing us Lee after the operation would take 2 pages, and then rehablition would take another few, which is nothing compared for the buildup of the operation (Gai's promise to kill himself if the operationf fails, etc etc).

Sasuke has all the flame jutsus, clones, henge (to hide himself), kawamiri (to create openings, which would be great cuz he's the same speed as Lee and has the sharingan), and he probably knows a few basic genjutsu (though we haven't seen any yet, since Kishimoto doesn't draw many genjutsu skills).

You say that Lee is there to allow Naruto to fight Sasuke? then why is Kimimaru there? he already wrecked up the story (why didn't he go with the sound four? why didn't he participate in the raid on the leaf? if he's that sick and Oro has other options, then Oro should've discarded him just like what he did to the sound trio) and has no messge or moral theme... Having Sauke escape while Tayuya held the bucket would have been much simpler, it would still be the same, Sasuke against Naruto and Tayuya against Shikamaru...

I'm more concerned about the fact that the sound four even need to rellay on the lvl 2 seals to beat assholes like Kiba and weaklings like Shikamaru, Orochimaru only gives the seal to guys he sees poteniteal in (like Sasuke), so they must have been exceptional ninjas, so they should have gotten rid of any not-cool\not-suiciding Genin (or chunin, in some cases) without resorting to any seal... I mean, come on! i can handle chouji and Neji winning (one by burninng out his life for strengh and one by pure startegy), but Kiba should've been dead in the first phace of the battle, and shikamaru should stop his IQ increase for a while (if he admmited that he couldn't beat Naruto, a complete idiot with barly one move, then there's no way he could beat a suprior ninja like Tayuya).

BTW: it might seem that i hate Lee, Shikamaru and Kiba, but in fact, i really like Shikamaru and Lee, and my deathwish concerning Kiba isn't becuase i hate him, it's becuase it'd be more logical for him to die now...

EDIT: Bolded out the first part, if Tsunde said it's a complicated opertaion with a long recovery time, then it should be one, otherwise, Kishimoto is shitting at his readeres, just like saying "remember all those things i've focused so much about in previous chapters and got you all to discuss them? guess what, from now on, they don't exist anymore!"

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 06:18 PM

of course i don't mean an actual surgery...

rock lee is suppose to have went through a lot of rehabilitation considering it's a spinal injury but he didn't, that's what i find stupid. after his surgery, he was up and ready to fight kimimaro who's suppose to be a fucking bad ass.

also, you completely misunderstood me. i think you're thinking as if i was putting sasuke and lee in a fight scenario. but i'm just comparing their attributes (after all, this is about kimimaro vs lee). sasuke does have a limited amount of ninjutsus but that's still more than what lee has. i don't think we have seen sasuke do a genjutsu before but we know that he can see through them. how does this make up for lack of speed? it doesn't actually since in the post you're responding to i said it makes up for lee's higher skill in taijutsu NOT his speed...

but what makes up for sasuke's "lack of speed?" sasuke's lvl 2. the fact that sasuke is about the same speed as lee without his weight before using level 1 curse seal tells us that level 2 can only make him faster.

so inconclusion, sasuke is faster and knows more about ninjutsu and genjutsu, which makes him an overall better ninja. that is all i've been trying to say.

now, let me ask you. who do you think should win, kimimaro or lee? consider everything from amount of hype to skills.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
4. That's because maybe the level 2 seals aren't as strong as you expected it to be. If genins can take out level 2 seals, then Sasuke isn't a match for Naruto at all.

just because they are mere genins that does not mean that they aren't strong. the genins are actually part of the main story line and suppose to be strong. having them get wiped out with ease is pointless.

genins like naruto, kiba, neji, and maybe chouji have the genin titles but are definitely worthy of being at chuunin if you ignore their leadership abilities.

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
EDIT: Bolded out the first part, if Tsunde said it's a complicated opertaion with a long recovery time, then it should be one, otherwise, Kishimoto is shitting at his readeres, just like saying "remember all those things i've focused so much about in previous chapters and got you all to discuss them? guess what, from now on, they don't exist anymore!"

i completely agree.

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 06:22 PM

I think Lee will win. Not becaues he beat Kimimaro outright, but because Kimi has ailing health.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 07:23 PM

I would like to point out that if Shizune will suddenly come out and save the dying genins, it would also be stupid...

When she saw the two wounded\half dead ninjas from her team, she said that they should bring them to the hospital right away, right? then why the hell would she leave them to go look for others? espically when she doesn't know about the genin team yet, half of her team is near death, and the healthy half is low on chackra, tired from the mission, and is needed to protect and escort the two wounded ones...

there's no reasonable explenation for her to do anything BUT take care of her team, and there's no way that she'll find the genins on her way back, since the genins started to fight after the Sound four kicked those jounins asses...

and seeing how the leaf village is at least a few hours away from them, i don't think that the dying genins would be able to live long enough for another medical team to arrive from the village, so I think it's pretty obvious that at least Chouji is done for, and perhaps also Neji (though i hope not), and by the closeup on Kiba's water drops, i guess that Sakon is after him to finish the job of killing Dogboy...

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
I would like to point out that if Shizune will suddenly come out and save the dying genins, it would also be stupid...

When she saw the two wounded\half dead ninjas from her team, she said that they should bring them to the hospital right away, right? then why the hell would she leave them to go look for others? espically when she doesn't know about the genin team yet, half of her team is near death, and the healthy half is low on chackra, tired from the mission, and is needed to protect and escort the two wounded ones...

there's no reasonable explenation for her to do anything BUT take care of her team, and there's no way that she'll find the genins on her way back, since the genins started to fight after the Sound four kicked those jounins asses...

and seeing how the leaf village is at least a few hours away from them, i don't think that the dying genins would be able to live long enough for another medical team to arrive from the village, so I think it's pretty obvious that at least Chouji is done for, and perhaps also Neji (though i hope not), and by the closeup on Kiba's water drops, i guess that Sakon is after him to finish the job of killing Dogboy...

I don't think that it would be stupid. She has two wounded ninjas. She will want to get them home fast, and I mean fast for medical attention. Upon arriving Shizune briefs Tsunade about the situation.

1. Tsunade wants to see who could have done this to her jounins, so she sends Shizune back with available anbus. Shizune knows the location, where they were ambushed. Who else would be better to send? Shizune and the squad track the trail to Chouji, then Neji, and then finds the others.

2. Tsunade knows that the (Shika's group) was in that area. She immediately dispatches Shizune and available jounins to head back to look for either the (Shika's) group or the possible culprits.

Raven

Mon, 04-05-2004, 08:43 PM

Everyone seems to be making a big deal of the waterdrop closeup... I don't believe it had any relevance, I think it was just an artistic viewpoint. How exactly is it supposed to suggest anything about Sakon?

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 08:50 PM

Sakon will follow him (I don't think he's done for yet, all he got was pee in the eyes) down the river, and will see that the ground is 'wet' and go after him, and finish him for good...

one last thing, Tsunde said in 210 that they can't dispatch another team right now, so i think a few genins are really gonna die! yoo hoo!

Raven

Mon, 04-05-2004, 08:54 PM

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that TBH. Sakon's gotta be defeated somehow, I wonder who will do it. Maybe Sasuke will run into him on the way or something and want to test his new abilities.

JTD121

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:00 PM

How would Sasuke find Kiba and Sakon? They went off on a tangent from Shika and Tayuya, so they are probably somewhere relatively nearby, while Sasuke, Naruto, Lee, and Kimimaro are pretty far from Shika/Tayuya. I don't see how Sasuke might run into Kiba or Sakon.

There's a question, where exactly is Sasuke heading? Just away from Naruto and the others? Or to Orochimaru? How does he know where Oro is?

mainva | aptigo | JTD out

Raven

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:09 PM

I was just wondering about Sasuke, it was just a random thought. Someone's gotta beat Sakon, and I highly doubt it'll be Kiba. You're right though, they fell down a ravine.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:16 PM

actually, i wrote that it might turn out like that a few weeks ago, with Sasuke killing the last sound four to check out his power..

it's quite possible that Sakon will be the one to die, since Sasuke still owes him about thier last match, and we all know that Sasuke loves to hold grudges to other people...

Raven

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:22 PM

It would be good, but JTD121 made a good point in saying that Sasuke and Kiba/Sakon are in a totally different place, Kiba/Sakon fell down a ravine, it would be too hard for Sasuke to just "run into them".

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:27 PM

let's say that these two reasonable things will happen:
A. Sasuke gets to orochimaru (following his natrual sense of direction when it concerns getting into trouble).
B. Sakon kills Kiba and goes to rendevous with the rest of his team in Oro's Headquraters.

now, since the rest of the sound four are dead (besides Tayuya, but we don't know yet) and Oro has Sasuke, Sakon is pretty useless for him, right?

and Oro doesn't keep useless stuff around, so he'll probably use sakon to check Sasuke's new power, just like he did with the sound trio, to check the lvl 1 seal...

MightyDustLoop

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
let's say that these two reasonable things will happen:
A. Sasuke gets to orochimaru (following his natrual sense of direction when it concerns getting into trouble).
B. Sakon kills Kiba and goes to rendevous with the rest of his team in Oro's Headquraters.

now, since the rest of the sound four are dead (besides Tayuya, but we don't know yet) and Oro has Sasuke, Sakon is pretty useless for him, right?

and Oro doesn't keep useless stuff around, so he'll probably use sakon to check Sasuke's new power, just like he did with the sound trio, to check the lvl 1 seal...

Good theory. However, I doubt the creator will kill off Kiba, though he really should reduce the char count a few for the continuially expanding line-up.

Easy solution.

Sakon corners Kiba but hasn't found his exact location yet. Sakon senses Sasuka heading toward Orochi. Guess what? His mission to keep others advancing is over. He's done and takes off back to Orochi's.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by: MightyDustLoop

Good theory. However, I doubt the creator will kill off Kiba, though he really should reduce the char count a few for the continuially expanding line-up.

Yep. That ain't gonna happen.
Genma and Raido, who aren't main characters, didn't get killed.
Boo may want Kiba dead, as much I want Sasuke and Sakura following the same path to the land from where no traveller has return.
But there's not even a ghost of a chance that it will happen.

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
The biggest one for me is how the hell can Oro say that Itachi is stronger than himself. When everything that we've seen would say otherwise. I know that the plot is to have Sasuke kill off Itachi and in order to avoid the question, "Why doesn't Oro just take Itachi's body, he is far better than Sasuke?" The writers put in a qoute "he is stronger than myself." That's Kishimoto shitting on readers. He could have came up with some other excuse, because when compared, Oro is way stronger than Itachi.
this is pretty funny. it clearly says that orochimaru is weaker than itachi and you're forcing yourself to believe that he isn't. do you really need kishimoto to explain EVERYTHING? let me just say some random answer to "why doesn't oro just take itachi's body?" MAYBE itachi was so strong to begin with that orochimaru had no chance at all. I DON'T KNOW. somethings you gotta fill it in yourself. itachi is stronger than orochimaru. this is one of the most concrete evidence we have when you compare orochimaru vs itachi.

Or what about the existence of Hunter Nins. Why didn't Konoha send out Hunter Nins for Sasuke? Why did Kishimoto even explain the purpose of Hunter Nins, if he wasn't going to use them. That's Kishimoto shitting on readers.
then what the hell would naruto and his gang be doing? sitting around training while they go rescue him? no. it is more convenient to have those genins go after sasuke so the story doesn't become dull and boring.

FYI, Mutato
Either the genins suck or they're powerful. You can't have it both ways. If they are indeed powerful as you have suggested in your post, and Lee is a genin, then according to your own statement; Lee is a match (on par) with Kimimaro.
i can have it in 30 ways if i want. they are obviously as strong as i suggested. they 'tied' with the sound 4 who are pretty decent ninjas themselves. and so is lee but that doesn't mean that he should be on par with kimimaro (i have no idea how you came up with this). kimimaro is on a whole another level compared to the sound 4.

and it's Mut@t@ or dazzz. at least spell my name right =/

EDIT: just in case you ask how i came up with kimimaro being on a whole another level compared to the sound 4, well, it was easy...kidoumaru said kimimaro has almost killed him before and more importantly, someone like tayuya wouldn't let people get away with a death threat as kimimaro did.

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 09:59 PM

No chance in hell, Sakon is said to be the one with the wrost temper that won't give up until he kills his enemy, and that he's the strongest of the sound four (excluding Kimimaru, of course).

combine that with the fact that Kiba and Akamaru PISSED on him, and you'll get one revengfull basterd...

Kiba is the perfect guy to die now, next to choji. he has done nothing meaningfull, he isn't intersting, people can like him but not enough to get attached. Like chouji and Dosu, he'll have more effect on the storyline dead rather than alive..

my perfect scenrio would go like this:
Sakon jumps into the water to consil his smell from kiba, and he uses Ukon's eye as a perriscope to look around, then they get to Kiba, and ukon takes over Akamaru's body, leaving Kiba unable to react against him, and that's when Sakon charges at Kiba, and kills him like the useless shit he is...
after that, Sakon takes pity on Akamaru and adopts him, and then he goes back to orochimaru. when he gets there, Akamaru starts to cry, since he feels how powerfull and evil Sasuke is now. Sakons tries to ask where's the rest of his team, but orochimaru says that they are no longer useful to him, and orders sasuke to kill Sakon. a page after that we see Sasuke lvl2 standing atop of Sakon's body, luaghing and bragging about his new power and strengh, and swears that like he paid Sakon back for beating him earlier, he's going to kill Itachi for the humilation he gave him. (note: he won't refear to his oath to rebuild the clan or to the fact that he's killing itachi for revenge of the clan, it'll be perssonal now, to show that sasuke is on the bad side now).

anyway, that's how i'd like to see it, Kiba can rot in hell, but Akamaru should live on..

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
No chance in hell, Sakon is said to be the one with the wrost temper that won't give up until he kills his earlier, he's going to kill Itachi for the humilation he gave him. (note: he won't refear to his oath to rebuild the clan or to the fact that he's killing itachi for revenge of the clan, it'll be perssonal now, to show that sasuke is on the bad side now).

anyway, that's how i'd like to see it, Kiba can rot in hell, but Akamaru should live on..

Now, if Oro who is who he is, thinks Itachi is stronger than him, could you explain to me how Sasuke on level 2 will kill Itachi?

Death BOO Z

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:23 PM

first thing, that quote is totally out of sentence, i hope it's just an accident...

secondly, Sasuke isn't very big on reason himself, he thought that he could take out a jounin by himself (kakashi) when he was barely a genin, and he believed that even though he couldn't beat gaara, he could take on Itachi...

i don't see any reason for Sasuke to change his mind now, if he could, Sasuke would have gone after itachi even a day after itachi killed the entire clan, Sasuke isn't chasing Itachi to kill him, he's trying to make up for the fact he didn't fight when Itachi killed everybody, he's after that more than he's after the 'true' revenge... Sasuke is fighting itachi for the sake of fighting, not for the sake of killing him.

try comparing him to Kurapica from HxH, they are both very similiar (both have red eyes!), yet, Kurapica's revenge is planned and calculated, becuase he wants to defeat them.

Orochimaru won't let Sasuke fight Itachi anytime soon, he already lost one perfect body, and now he's stuck with a lowsy runner up (the gaara-lookalike). Orochimaru will try to take over sasuke's body the first chance he'll get, until then, he won't let anything hurt Sasuke...

EDIT: well, it's five AM here, and as much as i like staying up late and as much as it improves my mental skills (me= night bird) i also need my sleep,so cya tommorow, same time, same place, same chapter...

hiten mitsurugi

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:24 PM

Dude, I think you meant to say that Itachi is stronger than Oro, not Itachi is stronger than Itachi.

There's a difference between forcing yourself to believe something and going out on a limb to believe the words "he is stronger than myself." Especially when Kishimoto doesn't back that up with any sequence of events.

Hmmmm.....maybe the use of hunter nins (especially since everyone claims how precious the last Uchiha is to the village) will allow us to move on to the development of Akatsuki. Then Sasuke escapes and trains with Oro, blah, blah, blah. The only thing that these episodes achieve is to show us the powers of the level 2 seal, which is either powerful or not. I can't tell by your contradictions.

Your explanation of kimi being on another level because of threats and almost death just means that Kimimaro is slightly better then the other four, remember the other four were'nt all that strong to begin with. He needs to be on a different level for Rock Lee, this will be his best match up since the Gara fight.

On a lighter note, I don't think that Kiba will end up finishing Sakon. Kiba is without Akamaru, he has lost a lot of blood, and he is low on chakra. I think Kiba will be saved by someone.

Neji-Aniki-sama

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
Dude, I think you meant to say that Itachi is stronger than Oro, not Itachi is stronger than Itachi.

.

Let's try again, see if you understand now, dude.
Now, Orochimaru, who is who he (Orichimaru) is, thinks that Itachi is stronger than him (Orochimaru),[...]
The English language alows the use of pronouns instead of somebody's name, for example.

Mut

Mon, 04-05-2004, 10:54 PM

what contradictions? and what do you mean either the level 2 seal is powerful or not? of course it's powerful...

how can you believe that kimimaro is only slightly better than the sound's 4? you think with tayuya's attitude and ego, she'd just say nothing when someone threatens her life when that person is only 'slightly' better than she is? hell no! tayuya keeping her mouth shut was to show that kimimaro has the sound's 4 on a leash. he can smash them without much trouble. and i know she'd talk back to kimimaro if he was only 'slightly' stronger than she is because she talks back to sakon who is said to be the strongest of the sound's 4.

Jhoffer

Tue, 04-06-2004, 04:16 AM

Lee can only use taijutsu. So, wouldn't it make sense that he has studied many different styles? Instead of just passively knowing the drunken fist?

I doubt that hunter-nins would be sent out after a day or two.

I<3TenTen

Tue, 04-06-2004, 07:27 AM

Lee will beat kimi imo
5 of the 8 gates have been opened
i highly doubt gai will be the one later on
to open the 8 gates like that.
Lee will open the 8th gate later on
and kill some other big bad ass Arc 9 ninja
he will not lose to kimi now lol ..
We know so far that Lee potentially has the power
to surpass a hokage for a short amount of time before
he dies ..
Now its a garunteed that lee will unlock the 8th gate
against someone .. and your telling me that kimmi is
close to a hokage in power?

I honestly don't know why people are swallowing the members
of a character created just to be torn down by lee. Kimmi
does have a purpose .. thats to get his bones shattered by the
iron fist style and since he is all bones ... i don't know why
people are still argueing this. Kimmi's powers were created as
"Bones" for a reason, for the perfect comeback/return for lee
Come on now folks its called foreshadowing ..

Iznogoud

Tue, 04-06-2004, 08:10 AM

Or what about the existence of Hunter Nins. Why didn't Konoha send out Hunter Nins for Sasuke? Why did Kishimoto even explain the purpose of Hunter Nins, if he wasn't going to use them. That's Kishimoto shitting on readers.
I guess that was to have a coherent universe...more detailled...and we might see them in action in some chapters who knows...
I hate guys that are disrespectful to autors...Dude, if you think you can do a better job then...DO IT !

hiten mitsurugi

Wed, 04-07-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by: Iznogoud

Or what about the existence of Hunter Nins. Why didn't Konoha send out Hunter Nins for Sasuke? Why did Kishimoto even explain the purpose of Hunter Nins, if he wasn't going to use them. That's Kishimoto shitting on readers.
I guess that was to have a coherent universe...more detailled...and we might see them in action in some chapters who knows...
I hate guys that are disrespectful to autors...Dude, if you think you can do a better job then...DO IT !

FYI, there are people who get paid for reviewing literature. These types of people are called critics. Do you hate these people too? Do you know who the biggest critics are? The fans. Iznogoud, you're a fan; therefore you're also a critic. Do you hate yourself as well? Don't spout such propaganda when, you, yourself are guilty of the same actions. Just the fact that you post here suggest that you're biased in one way or the other.

I am in no way proposing that I can do a better job. I am just showing that it could have been done differently. There is no right or wrong way in story-telling. I was merely supporting Death Booz statement about Kishimoto shitting on us, by giving examples.

I really hate hypocrites, who tell others not to be disrespectful of authors, yet turn around and slander their names.

hiddenpookie

Wed, 04-07-2004, 09:21 PM

heh critics...hate them lol j/k they tell the cold truth..anyway lee wow i expected him to kik alot more ass..guess not lokes like bones..is gonna wipe the floor with him..

Mut

Wed, 04-07-2004, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by: I<3TenTen
Lee will beat kimi imo
5 of the 8 gates have been opened
i highly doubt gai will be the one later on
to open the 8 gates like that.
Lee will open the 8th gate later on
and kill some other big bad ass Arc 9 ninja
he will not lose to kimi now lol ..
We know so far that Lee potentially has the power
to surpass a hokage for a short amount of time before
he dies ..
Now its a garunteed that lee will unlock the 8th gate
against someone .. and your telling me that kimmi is
close to a hokage in power?

I honestly don't know why people are swallowing the members
of a character created just to be torn down by lee. Kimmi
does have a purpose .. thats to get his bones shattered by the
iron fist style and since he is all bones ... i don't know why
people are still argueing this. Kimmi's powers were created as
"Bones" for a reason, for the perfect comeback/return for lee
Come on now folks its called foreshadowing ..

NO

EDIT: response to post below:

give me a fucking break. you're telling me, i posted with a simple "NO" to bring up my post count. oh yes, i am one more post closer to 4000! yay!

wow, dude. the reason why only replied with NO is because what you say is nonsensical. let me point out the parts where i just shook my head in disbelief that one is able to come up with such absurd thoughts:

1. Now its a garunteed that lee will unlock the 8th gate against someone .. and your telling me that kimmi is close to a hokage in power?

2. Kimmi does have a purpose .. thats to get his bones shattered by the iron fist style and since he is all bones ... i don't know why people are still argueing this. Kimmi's powers were created as "Bones" for a reason, for the perfect comeback/return for lee

let me respond to this:

1. show me the guarantee. i know wanna know how you came up with the idea that lee is guaranteed to open up the 8th gate.

2. what? everyone has bones. does that mean everyone is suppose to get their asses beat by lee? i'm not even sure how to respond to this, it's so ridiculous. the only way i see lee winning is if kimimaro's illness kicks in.

and why do you keep posting as if you're writing poetry?

PS: ten ten is a sorry excuse for a ninja.

I<3TenTen

Wed, 04-07-2004, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: I<3TenTen
Lee will beat kimi imo
5 of the 8 gates have been opened
i highly doubt gai will be the one later on
to open the 8 gates like that.
Lee will open the 8th gate later on
and kill some other big bad ass Arc 9 ninja
he will not lose to kimi now lol ..
We know so far that Lee potentially has the power
to surpass a hokage for a short amount of time before
he dies ..
Now its a garunteed that lee will unlock the 8th gate
against someone .. and your telling me that kimmi is
close to a hokage in power?

I honestly don't know why people are swallowing the members
of a character created just to be torn down by lee. Kimmi
does have a purpose .. thats to get his bones shattered by the
iron fist style and since he is all bones ... i don't know why
people are still argueing this. Kimmi's powers were created as
"Bones" for a reason, for the perfect comeback/return for lee
Come on now folks its called foreshadowing ..

NO

NO
i can get my post count up tooo

Assertn

Wed, 04-07-2004, 11:52 PM

lol wow.....
well i agree with the idea that lee's bone shattering taijutsu and kimimaru's bone type bloodline seems like a convenient match-up that could lead some good predictions on what will happen......but if lee opens that 8th gate.....then he is definitely going to die......in fact.....if he opened that 8th gate this early on his recovery.....then 1 of 2 things will happen.....

1) he dies afterwards.....leaving lots of pissed off fans
2) he doesnt die......thus proving the entire concept of the user dying from unlocking gates untrue and contradicting what was stated earlier in the series......leaving lots of pissed off fans

MemnochTheCaT

Thu, 04-08-2004, 11:45 AM

I could definitely see a stalemate coming, Kishimoto already did it with Gaara/Naruto. Both Lee and Kimi aren't 100%, and considering that Neji and fatty are already *possibly* dead, there's no need for a dramatic death by Lee. Another thing to consider is the humor being used in the situation .. it lends to this not being a knock-down major fight, but rather a temporary distraction during the Naruto finding Sasuke situation.

BakaShinji

Thu, 04-08-2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by: I<3TenTen

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: I<3TenTen
Lee will beat kimi imo
5 of the 8 gates have been opened
i highly doubt gai will be the one later on
to open the 8 gates like that.
Lee will open the 8th gate later on
and kill some other big bad ass Arc 9 ninja
he will not lose to kimi now lol ..
We know so far that Lee potentially has the power
to surpass a hokage for a short amount of time before
he dies ..
Now its a garunteed that lee will unlock the 8th gate
against someone .. and your telling me that kimmi is
close to a hokage in power?

I honestly don't know why people are swallowing the members
of a character created just to be torn down by lee. Kimmi
does have a purpose .. thats to get his bones shattered by the
iron fist style and since he is all bones ... i don't know why
people are still argueing this. Kimmi's powers were created as
"Bones" for a reason, for the perfect comeback/return for lee
Come on now folks its called foreshadowing ..

NO

NO
i can get my post count up tooo

Yes, I believe this is the perfect come back for Lee. I say lee should have said "Bones... perfect, my jutsus are made for crushing bones, *nice guy pose w/ flaming eyes*".

And don't pay attention to mut@t@, his specialty is criticize-no-jutsu.

Mut

Fri, 04-09-2004, 12:28 AM

good job reading my response to it. I<3tenten is just another one of those "i'll say random shit and say it with confidence so it looks like it's fact when i really have nothing solid to back it up with".

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-09-2004, 10:56 AM

Lol yeah, seems like 90% of Mut@t@/Dazzz posts have a higher than average element of antipathy and argumentative content.

hiten mitsurugi

Fri, 04-09-2004, 12:44 PM

Christ, Dazzz is a freakin Jounin. Gotta get mine up too.

Mut

Fri, 04-09-2004, 08:12 PM

chapter 212 should tell all you guys...lee is NOT on par with kimimaro...hahahahahaha.

EDIT: response to below:

lol, wtf? why would you even think that the rescuer needs to be rescued? that's lame. makes lee look like an idiot. just like that time against the sound's genins at the forest of death. haha.

and...could you not tell by how lee was bleeding and bruised up while kimimaro was just chilling and like "you suck" at him? if winged dancer is correct, lee opened up the first gate and his speed was no match for kimimaro's. kimimaro just brushed off lee's speed with just a "amazing speed, but too bad you're gonna die now, goodbye." lee was seconds away from dying. gaara had to save the "heroic rescuer" lee with cat litter.

SUCKS FOR ALL YOU LEE FANS....WHAT WERE YOU GUYS THINKING... ROFLMAO (i didn't really roll on the floor laughing my ass off).

EDIT: response to hiten's edit:

just because kimimaro wasn't the aggressor that doesn't mean he can't hit lee. none of should assume that cuz we truly don't know.

then i'm sure someone will say something like "well, if you say that, then maybe lee escaped and kicked kimimaro's ass, but we can't say that cuz we don't know either...there goes your theory/idea"

nope, wrong. if lee was able to escape then gaara wouldn't have to have saved lee's geeky ass.

but who cares, lee got owned. kimimaro knocked his ass out...had to wait for lee to open up his eye from loss of unconsciousness. aaaaaaaaahahaha... but gaara is gonna clean house and lee will help too. too bad, when that happens, all the lee fans are gonna go crazy again acting like lee actually did something.

*NOTE: i'm going by winged dancer's translation for right now...i'll just edit everything if i need to when the inane version comes out.

hiten mitsurugi

Fri, 04-09-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
chapter 212 should tell all you guys...lee is NOT on par with kimimaro...hahahahahaha.

LOL...how so? Everyone pretty much knew that someone was going to intervene. But if nobody interfered, my money would still be on Lee. ROFL...

answer to post below....but that's because Lee's the agressor, he's the one attacking. All Kimimaro was doing was defending. Clearly Kimimaro couldn't attack Lee properly either. Kimimaro isn't fast enough to even touch Lee.

That's why it's so funny; to make such a comment when the fight really didn't even start, kind of like Naruto's.

What else is going to happen, Gara begins to fight and then Baki shows up. Baki begins to fight and then Gai shows up. Then Oro shows up. Then Itachi shows up for Naruto. Then Jaraiya shows up. Then we can have one big free for all.

MemnochTheCaT

Fri, 04-09-2004, 08:26 PM

I think he's referring to the fact that Lee was not yet able to penetrate Kimi's bone defense, and Lee appeared to be sustaining injuries from the battle rather quickly. I love Lee, but I think he was getting the worst of the encounter up to the point where Gaara shows up looking all gothic and cool i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

RangeOfHakke

Fri, 04-09-2004, 09:09 PM

1. Mut@t@ is the man!!!
2. Neji could beat the crap out of Lee...its true its true

Strider

Sat, 04-10-2004, 03:26 PM

Okay, Mut@t@ .. Looks like I am your huckleberry, this afternoon. Here will be that one time you are wrong. Heh. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Lee was the aggressor. True.

Kimimaro can not hit Lee. True & False. I am sure if Kimimaro truly tried to hit Lee, now with his soberness returning, Lee would have been hit. However, Kimimaro did make an attempt in striking Lee. Several times. And, the result? A parry, or deflection followed by swift counter-attacks. It is not that Kimimaro cannot strike Lee, simply that he could not ..

"If Lee was able to escape, then Gaara would not have to save him .." .. I will not even comment on your statement there. The moment you used the word "if", you opened up the largest can of worms (called "possibility ..") for yourself, which I won't partake in consuming.
[i.e. -- "If Gaara did not have that gourd, he would be dead .." See what I'm saying? Fin.]

And, if you truly want to get technical about who will be cleaning house .. it will actually be Lee & Shukaku, since it is not as if Gaara truly does anything .. or can.

On a final note, acquired / trained skill is much different from innate talent. Such as your signature states the difference on [current] strength and potential. On skill alone, Kimimaro could not breach the surface of Lee's defenses to harm him. Thus, what results? The usage of a bloodline limit. Hell, who needs to work when you're born with millions upon millions of dollars? Feel me? Thank ye'. Bamf ..

Ninja vanish!

Insomniac

Sat, 04-10-2004, 03:31 PM

well 211/212 made it obvious that Kimimaro and Lee actually arent on the same level

Kimimaro from what we've seen was just playing around with Naruto and Lee, once he activated his morphic bones it was all over for Lee.
did i forget to mention that Kimimaro hasnt activated level 2 yet either?

Mut

Sat, 04-10-2004, 03:34 PM

insomniac has this one. my response to strider's post is the one above.

maybe another day strider.

Strider

Sat, 04-10-2004, 03:35 PM

Level two? .. I do not even think he's activated the first level. All of this monstrous nonsense he is doing now is all inclusive with the package of his bloodline inheritance. But, I agreed with someone earlier on that point .. Kimimaro and Lee are not on equal fighting grounds. And, as much as I love Lee .. it is true.

Ninja vanish ..

Kalean

Sat, 04-10-2004, 07:39 PM

I'd have to agree with Strider on this one. Kimi did attack Lee several times which was met with swift and painful counter attacks. However, I also have to disagree with him about Kimimaro's current curse seal level. In actuality, not only does one of the pages show the curse seal spreading from the three marks into a full blown tattoo-style marking on his chest (right when he makes the first 'bone gauntlet' around his hand against Lee) but the translation for the narration at the end of that chapter was "The frightening blood line ability that requires an activated curse seal!!" or you know, possibly a slightly more accurate translation than that, so it's pretty safe to say by those two pieces of evidence that he has used the first level of the curse seal. Which does bring me back to the point that it looks like he has 2 levels, since the seal IS operating in the same manner as Sasuke's level 1 curse seal did (Increases power vastly, but apparently speed as well, since before the curse seal Kimi could hardly react to Lee's drunken rage, but now he was able to stop Lee's Otome Renge starter with like half a dozen bones, which would SERIOUSLY require some kind of speed overhaul, since it's been made obvious that having the first gate open is quite a boost to Lee) I guess that means Mut@t@ was wrong... if his new signature is to be believed, that would make it twice now. Interestingly enough, since he argued with me by saying that Kimi didn't have a second curse seal form (I might have been reading too much into his argument, however), that would make him wrong yet again if Kimi does have a level 2. I wonder if he'll have to edit his signature again..

To be a very very VERY late responder, Mut@t@, I assumed that Kimimaro couldn't emit chakra from every chakra hole in his body, because that's been described as an ability completely unique to the most elite of the Hyuuga clan. And since that was the *ONLY WAY* that Neji (equally a close combat freak, just as Kimi has been appearing to be, although we haven't seen any Ninjutsu from Kimi yet) was able to even DETECT Kidoumaru's arrow before it hit him, let alone survive it (The wind displacement bent the oak trees, my friend. That's some hefty punch that thing is packing there. You're not stopping it. At all. Deflecting maybe, but that would require detecting it in the first place, and Neji is FASTER than rock lee without the weights, so saying Kimi is faster would still be quite a leap of faith.) I was saying that a similar situation would have been VERY hard for Kimimaro to survive without a level 2 seal. Even now at level 1, Kimimaro has shown great abilities in close combat, but nothing that would save him from such a powerful and fast and accurate blow. At any rate, we know that Kimi's seal is from orochimaru, as it's the same type of three pronged mark that everyone else has, and spreads out across the body when activated in the same way (although each person's pattern is quite unique) and gives a similar status boost, and because Kabuto said it was. That said, if Kimimaro was so close to dying, it stands to reason that he would have a level 2 curse seal, as coming close to death is the only requirement we are aware of for the level 2 curse seal, and that's all sasuke appeared to go through to obtain it. So, that's a VERY late articulation on why I believe Kimi has a level 2 curse seal, and I'm done living in the past now. In the current situation, I'd find it hard to believe a match with Rock Lee *AND* Gaara against Kimi would be remotely exciting if Kimi didn't possess a level 2 seal as well. After all, Kimi is frightening, but it's hard to believe he's THAT frightening in level 1 form.

That all being said, I should note that I always feel compelled to respond to Mut@t@'s criticisms. Maybe he and I don't 'jive' well for lack of a better term.

Mut

Sat, 04-10-2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by: Kalean
Interestingly enough, since he argued with me by saying that Kimi didn't have a second curse seal form (I might have been reading too much into his argument, however), that would make him wrong yet again if Kimi does have a level 2. I wonder if he'll have to edit his signature again..

wrong. this is just a misunderstanding on your part. i never argued that kimimaro NEVER had the ability to go to level 2. it might have been worded in a shitty way, then; my bad. but all i argued was the fact that even thought we've never even seen a lvl 2 from kimimaro, people were just assuming that he can go lvl 2. yeah, i do believe that kimimaro has a level 2 and he activated his lvl 1 when fighting lee (when the marking spread) because of the similarities in the two curse seals. let me just repeat the reason why i argued that kimimaro does not have lvl 2: because we haven't seen it yet but still people just flat out say he does. i've been just trying to correct that. it's just annoying when people claim random stuff without solid evidence. i hope people are able to understand what i am saying now and what i have been trying to say.

To be a very very VERY late responder, Mut@t@, I assumed that Kimimaro couldn't emit chakra from every chakra hole in his body, because that's been described as an ability completely unique to the most elite of the Hyuuga clan. And since that was the *ONLY WAY* that Neji (equally a close combat freak, just as Kimi has been appearing to be, although we haven't seen any Ninjutsu from Kimi yet) was able to even DETECT Kidoumaru's arrow before it hit him, let alone survive it (The wind displacement bent the oak trees, my friend. That's some hefty punch that thing is packing there. You're not stopping it. At all. Deflecting maybe, but that would require detecting it in the first place, and Neji is FASTER than rock lee without the weights, so saying Kimi is faster would still be quite a leap of faith.) I was saying that a similar situation would have been VERY hard for Kimimaro to survive without a level 2 seal. Even now at level 1, Kimimaro has shown great abilities in close combat, but nothing that would save him from such a powerful and fast and accurate blow.

neji is faster than rock lee? saying kimimaro is faster than him would be quite a leap of faith? first, i dunno about neji being faster than lee (i hope someone else can clear this). second, kimimaro is fast, maybe not by a mile, but is just as fast or faster. kimimaro was suppose to have been orochimaru's next body instead of that girl (or whatever it was) for the invasion of konoha. it's been said that it would've gone smoothly and easy if it weren't for kimimaro's illness. that being said, we can pretty much say that kimimaro is a very powerful warrior. if orochimaru (and his 1st/2nd resurrections) was able to take on the 3rd hokage and enma with that random body, then we can tell that orochimaru in kimimaro's body would've destroyed everything. as for kimimaro going against kidoumaru. putting kimimaro in that situation isn't fair cuz their fight could've gone in a totally different way. so there is no way of telling whether or not he would need to use lvl 2.

At any rate, we know that Kimi's seal is from orochimaru, as it's the same type of three pronged mark that everyone else has, and spreads out across the body when activated in the same way (although each person's pattern is quite unique) and gives a similar status boost, and because Kabuto said it was. That said, if Kimimaro was so close to dying, it stands to reason that he would have a level 2 curse seal, as coming close to death is the only requirement we are aware of for the level 2 curse seal, and that's all sasuke appeared to go through to obtain it.

i'm gonna have to disagree with you here. we don't actually know that kimi's seal is from orochimaru, we can only assume because it's similar to sasuke's curse seal. which means that's it's not fact. i'm not sure if i remember too correctly but, how his illness became about was never explained. it was only said that his illness kept him from being orochimaru's next body, nothing else.

NOTE: the part in bold is the most important part in my post. plz read it and think about it.

EDIT: nm, i figured out what i didn't understand. no need to explain it and i responded to it.

Kalean

Sat, 04-10-2004, 11:20 PM

I guess we agree to disagree on some of those things.. but in seriousness, I find that this...

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
we don't actually know that kimi's seal is from orochimaru, we can only assume because it's similar to sasuke's curse seal. which means that's it's not fact. i'm not sure if i remember too correctly but, how his illness became about was never explained. it was only said that his illness kept him from being orochimaru's next body, nothing else.

is a bit of a tough call. By the same logic, we don't know that anyone except Sakon (because he said so) in the sound 4 got their seal from orochimaru either, but that's just about the safest assumption you can make, given the similarity in every way. I just think that things don't have to be EXPLAINED to be CLEAR. And I will give you that if Orochimaru had Kimi's body in that fight, things would have gone very differently, but then, Orochimaru didn't seem very Taijutsu oriented to me. It seems to me that Oro might not have had the guts to use the bones as much, however, with substandard reasoning behind it. Orochimaru didn't just come to kill the third, otherwise he would've just killed him when he got the drop on him before the fight even started. I think Orochimaru wanted the third to feel emotional pain just as much as physical pain and death, otherwise starting a fight when he could have merely murdered the third in cold blood doesn't seem much like the snake he is.

At any rate, this thread has far too long a life considering the topic.

Mut

Sun, 04-11-2004, 01:07 AM

ok...with ALL of what we talked about said... basically the whole point i was trying to get at is...

LEE IS NOT ON PAR WITH KIMIMARO!

victory is sweet.

EDIT: response to below:

but that's the thing, we're not talking about a hypothetical battle, just what's happening now. we haven't even seen kimimaro's full abilities and lee got smashed.

Himura_san

Sun, 04-11-2004, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
ok...with ALL of what we talked about said... basically the whole point i was trying to get at is...

LEE IS NOT ON PAR WITH KIMIMARO!

victory is sweet.

Lee is no condition to be on par with Kimi and we don't know Kimis full abilities, so this is kind of open ended discussion we have here.

Strider

Mon, 04-12-2004, 10:13 AM

Couldn't leave this one alone ..

Kalean .. Neji faster than Lee? .. What in the world? I will have to most certainly disagree with you there. Neji is no way faster, in terms of sheer speed, than Rock Lee. First of all, the only reason Neji may appear faster in some cases is due to his perception. In other words, Byakugan. It grants the child awesome insight, all around him. I know it is not a complete three-hundred sixty degrees, but for the sake of argument, ignore me if I do not point that out at every mention of the Byakugan.

In any manner, because Neji has defeated Rock Lee during spars and challenges of the dropout, does not mean the Hyuuga is faster. In fact, the extra-sight on all sides is what bestowed the boy with those victories. If you were to step into the street, and can see a speeding vehicle travelling at you at insane velocities, you can move out of the way with facility. However, what goes unseen remains unfazed. And, unseen describes the speeds at which Rock Lee moves (without weights) best. During the preliminaries, once those weights were removed, many Genin claimed being unable to follow Lee's movements with their eyes.

But again, eyes are the Hyuuga's specialty .. that Byakugan and all. And, the Ura Renge (Extreme / Primary Lotus) was the way to bypass the speeds at which the Byakugan pick up motion from all around. Gai stated this during the commencement of the [Advanced] Tai-jutsu.

Main point .. from point a to point b .. straight line course, using whatever skills at your disposal .. do you seriously think Neji could get to the end remotely close to the time Lee would? Lee is the fastest Genin [that we have seen] in Konoha. And, returning to the topic .. you're right Mut@t@ .. Lee isn't on par with Kimimaro. It's hard to compete with someone with so much in their favor. But, not being able to beat such a powerful candidate hardly does anything to lower the greatness that is Rock Lee. Noone else could have hit Kimimaro. Fin.

Ninja vanish.