Who was in the third summoned coffin?

[hiten mitsurugi]

Do you think that the fourth could have been in that third coffin. The one that didn't open. I know that the fourth was supposedly sealed, but where did his soul go? We know that kyuubi is in Naruto, but where's the fourth? Just because the fourth's soul was sealed doesn't mean that Oro couldn't have unsealed it. Remeber when the third was worried about Naruto (at the beginning when he stole the sacred scroll to learn Kage Bunshin) unsealing kyuubi, that means the fourth could have been unsealed as well. So, two questions:
Who was in that third casket?
Where is the fourth's soul now?

[itachi_]

It was the forth hokage, you can see the sign that's carved on it, it's the sign for "fourth". He's soul dosen't exist, He's dead.

[jing]

No his soul does exist. His jutsu, makes it so that his soul is in an eternal battle with Death.

4th hokage's jutsu cannot be easily be broken even by orochimaru.

[Uchiha]

According to Sarutobi the seal that the 4th used on kyubi will seal the users and the oponents souls together in an eternal battle. So if the Sarutobi was speaking the truth then 4th hokage's soul should be sealed with kyubi's soul inside Naruto if something didn't go wrong. That's according to what the 3rd said about the jutsu when he used it on Orochimaru.

[Legendary Nin]

Orochimaru is using other peoples souls for that jutsu.In the manga there was a flashback that showed Orochimaru in a room with all these people chained up.Those people were victim of his human experiments,that's where he got the souls from.Its sad the anime cut it out,but I guess they had to do it because of the nature of the content.It was too much for evening t.v I assume.

edit:Just reliased that I'm in the manga section,and this topic should be moved to open discussion since its an anime question that was intended to be answered by a mangareader.

[PSJ]

that jutsu can be performed in diffrent ways 4th was sent to hell for doing it and seling the opponent in someone else 3rd did it in a diffrent way.. and the fact that he could summon 4th hokage would mean that naruto is not a reincarnation of 4th hokage... glad i thought of that... well it was the 4th in the third cacket...

[Jman]

t'was the 4th in the coffin

[PSJ]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Legendary Nin &#064; Feb 12 2004, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Orochimaru is using other peoples souls for that jutsu.In the manga there was a flashback that showed Orochimaru in a room with all these people chained up.Those people were victim of his human experiments,that&#39;s where he got the souls from.Its sad the anime cut it out,but I guess they had to do it because of the nature of the content.It was too much for evening t.v I assume.

edit:Just reliased that I&#39;m in the manga section,and this topic should be moved to open discussion since its an anime question that was intended to be answered by a mangareader. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
no he is using other ppl bodies and the souls of the hokages.


EDIT: what he did down in that room was experimenting on his immotrality spell not the summoning of the dead.

[Mut]

i don&#39;t understand it. how can it be the 4th? i mean, yeah it&#39;s pretty obvious that the 3rd one was gonna be the 4th but wasn&#39;t his soul sealed? and doesn&#39;t that IF he was resurrected, it&#39;d be impossible for the 3rd to perform the kinjutsu on him? but then again, how can he even be summoned if his soul was sealed? even if he was using other people&#39;s souls, how do they know everything the hokages did? it just doesn&#39;t make sense to me.

[Legendary Nin]

Ah,a little mix up.It still was an important flash back which also showed you that he was using humans for personal gain.

[Hatake Kakashi]

If Orochimaru can summon souls from the after life, I am sure he can summon the soul of Yondaime who is sealed...inside of Naruto I guess.....


Either way, Sarutobi stopped it in time.

I take it the kanji on the coffin meant 4, so that should answer the questions.

[BakaShinji]

Ok, I don&#39;t think the 4th&#39;s soul is sealed in eternal battle with kyuubi&#39;s. It is more likely that he just traded his life to seal kyuubi.

#1. We saw kyuubi inside naruto - but no 4th.
#2. The forbidden seals take different forms - we can&#39;t assume just because the hokage used the &quot;same type&quot; of seal - that it was the exact same thing. There are variations like waterbushin&#39;s and kagebushin&#39;s.

So vis-a-vis concordantly ergo - the 3rd coffin was yondaime : otherwise, it would be both yondaime&#39;s soul AND kyuubi&#39;s soul .... wouldn&#39;t that be scary? Two kyuubis? Maybe that was what sandaime was really concerned about... ?

[lasaire]

Well, the jutsu that the 3rd uses to seal Orochimaru&#39;s arms is the Fuuin Jutsu: Shiki Fuujin. (Sealing Spell: Dead Demon Imprisonment). This is from the end of chapter 122, through 123 and 124.

The 3rd jutsu says that with the completion of that jutsu, his soul will be consumed and along with the soul of the one whose soul is sealed, they will battle and mingle together in the belly of death, hating each other for all eternity. He says it&#39;s the jutsu of one who sacrificed his life for the Leaf; at which point Orochimaru realizes that &quot;So, this is the jutsu that sealed even the Kyubi.&quot;

Then, as you see the face of &#39;the belly of death&#39; the souls of the 1st, 2nd, and the clones of the 3rd can be seen it it&#39;s mouth before Death cuts them with his knife and swallows them (SCARY&#33;).

So, though the Fourth was supposed to be in the third coffin, I think that even if the Third hadn&#39;t managed to cancel the jutsu, it would only be the Fourth&#39;s body without his soul. Just a useless puppet. The Fourth&#39;s soul was already in the &#39;belly of death&#39; after sealing the Kyubi inside of Naruto.

Which brings across another interesting note: not only did the Fourth sacrifice his life to save the Leaf, he did so knowing he was sacrificing his very soul to eternal torment instead of a well-deserved rest in paradise (or whatever afterlife he believed in). When you look at it that way, &quot;hero&quot; is not enough to cover the depths of his sacrifice. Wow.

[Uzumaki Naruto]

its the 4th, i mean if the first 2 coffins were the other hokages then that 3rd one had to be the 4th and if the 4th was summoned 3rds ass would have been owned all over the place

[XwingRob]

Exactly. If the 4th was summoned, he would have immediately owned the 3rd.
I think the whole &quot;eternal battle against each other&quot; is either a poor translation or something that isn&#39;t to be taken too literaly. I mean come on, if we follow what that says, then the 3rd is now locked in eternal battle with Orochimaru&#39;s arms. I find that too silly to imagine...

[Chi Chi]

Sometimes I think you guys are exaggirating, Kishimoto probably didn&#39;t think about all these things. http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Insomniac]

you can assume that Orochimaru can summon the 4ths soul even if hes locked in an eternal battle, its just like gamabunta and such, they appear no matter what they were doing.

i guess the same is with the kyuubi. (which is why the scroll is well protected)

[PSJ]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (dazzz &#064; Feb 12 2004, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i don&#39;t understand it. how can it be the 4th? i mean, yeah it&#39;s pretty obvious that the 3rd one was gonna be the 4th but wasn&#39;t his soul sealed? and doesn&#39;t that IF he was resurrected, it&#39;d be impossible for the 3rd to perform the kinjutsu on him? but then again, how can he even be summoned if his soul was sealed? even if he was using other people&#39;s souls, how do they know everything the hokages did? it just doesn&#39;t make sense to me. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
they soul of the hokages know the hokages jutsus orochimaru brought the soul back form the dead and had prepeared host bodies for them. 4th hokage is not sealed he simply died when he performed the seal. i dont know why it is so hard to understand but the seal 3rd did is a diffrent version of the seal 4th used, they can be used in diffrent ways.


i mean it&#39;s not hard to guess that they are diffrent versions since 4th hokage sealed kyubi inside naruto and 3rd sealed the 2 hokages and orochimarus arms in the belly of death himself where they fight for eternity.

[Legendary Nin]

So you saw this kanji 四。I didn&#39;t bother to look,but the numbers should be like this 一、二、四.

[Lys]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Legendary Nin &#064; Feb 13 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So you saw this kanji 四。I didn&#39;t bother to look,but the numbers should be like this 一、二、四. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
二 and 四 were indeed on the two coffins, but the one the first hokage came out of had something different on it, I believe ... don&#39;t have the episode on this computer though, so I can&#39;t check to see what exactly it was.

edit: here ('http://groups.msn.com/NarutoManga/narutochapter117.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2322')&#39;s a link to the page in the manga that it showed the first two coffins, if someone cares to see the kanji that was on the first ...

[Raven]

I guess we&#39;ll never know for sure who was in the 3rd coffin. We can speculate all we like, but we&#39;ll never find out. How convenient that the Sarutobi was able to dispel it. http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[Insomniac]

the most likely theory is that it was intended for the 4th

now people say that if the 4th is sealed and fighting the kyuubi for eternity that means that he cant be summoned but we dont know that for sure, i mean hell the other 2 were dead a long time and their souls were summonable - i think that it doesnt matter where the soul is as long as its dead and the jutsu is proformed without being dispelled

[Gai]

A lot of people have made comments about how the Nine Tails Fox and the Fourth Hokage are supposedly fighting for all eternity... well, when Naruto went to visit the fox inside of him and demands that he pay rent, thus allowing him to summon the Big Frog, the Big Fox didn&#39;t seem to be fighting with anybody, just, errr, sitting there. Just a thought.

[Raven]

That&#39;s probably why the 3rd coffin was never opened...... because Kishimoto just cbf explaining all the soul/sealing/summoning stuff and how it relates to the 4th already being sealed, etc.

He probably thought &quot;it&#39;s too complicated, people will ask too many questions, oh well I&#39;ll make it so the summon is unsuccessful&quot;.

[Insomniac]

that and the fact that no one could take on 3 hokages at a time, no matter what

[Raven]

Yeah, that too.

I would have thought that Orochimaru would have prefered the honor of fighting Sarutobi by himself with his own abilities, rather than raising the dead to fight for him. It gives the impression that he couldn&#39;t do it himself. But then again, maybe he couldn&#39;t. But he always claimed to be able to. Ah, I dunno.

[itachi_]

As i said, I&#39;ve checked the kanji sign on the coffin and it&#39;s transelated to &quot;four&quot; or &quot;fourth&quot;, It was the 4th hokage, no doubt.

[Insomniac]

Orochimaru probably could have, after it he summoned the dead - you cant underestimate someone with that ability.

but the 3rd was the god of all nin&#39;s, strongest hokage ever so you cant discount that either.

it was more ironic to have him fight the 1st and 2nd then anything, in terms of vengence thats a perfect choice for Orochimaru.
he was overlooked for the 4th hokage spot so he takes revenge on the 3rd by using the previous hokages to kill him.
ah the poetic irony http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Hatake Kakashi]

Plus he wants him to fight his old masters to the death, so he knows how it feels.

I miss that old guy though http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/sad.gif

[lasaire]

I love the voice actors they picked for the 1st and 2nd in the anime, their designs were very cool and I think the scene came off very well, I can&#39;t wait to see the fight actually starting to happen&#33;&#33;

[Vagabond]

Well just think of it this way. If the 3rd never died naruto might of never learned the rasengan. Also we may of never seen Itachi.

Alright the firsy coffin says &quot;first generation&quot; in kanji, the second and third on are 2 and 4 in kanji. Yep so he was gonna summon the 4th like itachi_ said.

[Insomniac]

if the 4th was summoned there would have been no reason for the 3rd to fight, he would have died no matter what he did

[Yondaime]

I have one question actually among many...but for now.....If 4th sealed Kyubi inside Naruto. So that would mean either Naruto was on the battle field and he quickly put Kyubi&#39;s seal inside Naruto and than had a conversation with 3rd on how to treat Naruto. Or he walked away with Kyubi&#39;s soul in himself to Naruto and than performed the seal again on him and transfered the soul from his body to Naruto&#39;s and than his soul was taken away....WHY SUCH A LONG PROCESS ? WHY DID THEY NEED TO SEAL KYUBI INSIDE A KID? Why not just take Kyubi&#39;s seal inside of him and go to hell...Coz that was the whole point of that Jutsu. If you remember when 3rd finished sealing Oro&#39;s hands inside his body....the same seal appeared on his body as Naruto&#39;s. So obviously no doubt that its the same jutsu. Second Oro&#39;s hands were sealed inside 3rd. So Imagine 4th performing the seal from top of Gamabunta&#39;s head than the sould of Kyubi would obviously go inside him...Okay i am just repeating myself....

[Insomniac]

the 4th probably didnt have enough knowledge to control the jutsu as the 3rd did, also he could have sealed the kyuubi into Naruto because Naruto is pure and wouldnt be tainted by the kyuubi, i think that if he sealed the kyuubi inside of him and he died the kyuubi would just be released again.

[XwingRob]

I think perhaps the 4th was thinking about the future. Hidden Leaf Village might get attacked by some other demon or some powerful force again. So what better way to counter such a strong force then with a human having the power of Kyuubi under his control?
Sure you got the risk of Kyuubi breaking out, but the advantages probaly outweigh the disadvatages.

[Uzumaki Naruto]

i dont think that the seal works that kinda of way, i mean by sealing the power into ur self, nah, so u have to find a container to put in

[Vagabond]

I also think he was thinking into the future. The thing about the seal is that as naruto becomes older the kyuubis chakra mixes more with his. Maybe it was the fourths intention to have naruto be the next hokage.

[Yondaime]

what you still haven&#39;t answered is that after performing the seal...the soul is sealed inside the person performing the jutsu..and that person&#39;s soul is taken away along with the other soul....so why was there a need to seal kyubi inside Naruto...I don&#39;t think Hokage was thinking in future.....because at the time of the Kyubi incident they just wanted to get rid of him because he was causing tsunami&#39;s with just his tail and he had nine of them....so its hard to believe they had enough time to come up with a plan for future.....they must have just been thinking on how to kill the demon. so i think that takes care of &quot;Future Plan&quot;. Next it is possible that since Nine-tails was so huge they probably needed a bigger sacrifice....which they didn&#39;t have ...so instead of that trade off they just kept the soul of Kyubi inside Naruto. Plus i think 4th didn&#39;t die because of the jutsu...otherwise he wouldn&#39;t have the time to seal kyubi inside naruto and than explain the whole hero part to Sarutobi. I think he just died because he first summoned Gamabunta which requires alot of chakra than he probably fought with Kyubi performing high level jutsus and than performing the seal on kyubi....and than performing another seal on Naruto to seal Kyubi inside of him......which probably took alot of Chakra out of him....and its very much possible he got badly injured during the fight and just died.

One of the reason Oro was able to summon 4th because his soul wasn&#39;t sealed.


but what really screws up my above theory is that....Oro explained how the summoning works.....the dust covering the body of the summon comes togethar and takes the form of the person....and also for the memory of the summon you don&#39;t need the soul....just the information inside the brain ....(the whole dust part)....so basically 1st and 2nd were without their soul but had all their memories.
so another reason why Oro was able to summon 4th.

[itachi_]

I don&#39;t think that the 4th is &quot;that&quot; much greater then hokage 1st and 2nd and 3rd, you think he&#39;s the best because he sealed kyubi, maybe he just mastered the quality of sealing..

[Raven]

Hey has anyone noticed that the 4th looks like Naruto? Maybe they&#39;re father and son&#33; *nods furiously*

I agree with the theory that he sealed it in Naruto because he was pure and untainted, it makes sense.

[Nine Tailed Demon]

Did we get a definite answer?

[Insomniac]

there are a fair few people that look like naruto

about 6ish http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/tongue.gif
they&#39;re not all related either

[XwingRob]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CmDr_RavEn @ Feb 14 2004, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hey has anyone noticed that the 4th looks like Naruto? Maybe they&#39;re father and son&#33; *nods furiously*

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif NO WAY&#33; GET OUT&#33; *pushes CmDr_RavEn back.

[Noonan]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lasaire @ Feb 13 2004, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The 3rd jutsu says that with the completion of that jutsu, his soul will be consumed and along with the soul of the one whose soul is sealed, they will battle and mingle together in the belly of death, hating each other for all eternity. He says it&#39;s the jutsu of one who sacrificed his life for the Leaf; at which point Orochimaru realizes that &quot;So, this is the jutsu that sealed even the Kyubi.&quot;
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Okay - after seeing the anime version of the summoning of the dead scene I have an odd theory about this

#1 Orochi was trying to summon Hokage&#39;s 1,2,4 (i think we all agree on this)

#2 Sandaime says in the manga that the Jutsu the 4th uses seals the 2 souls together for all eternity, where they MINGLE and fight.

#3 Sandaime specifically reacts to the 4th&#39;s coffin. - more than the other 2 he feels the need to stop THAT ONE.

#4 The anime re-inforces the image of Sandiame stopping the ressurection of the 4th, rather than it failing on its own (the manga is a bit vague on this point)

so - when Naruto see&#39;s the Kyuubi inside him - all he ever sees is it&#39;s eyes and the darkness surrounding it - is it possible that Yondaime and the Kyuubi have merged?

If so that would explain why the 3rd was so concerned about seeing Yondaime&#39;s coffin, it might have contained him, or it may have been a way to free Kyuubi due to its connection to Yondaime.

It would also be an alternate explanation for why Naruto can access the Kyuubi chackra so easily - Yondaime&#39;s spirit is helping him.

[Insomniac]

yeah thats kinda my impression of it, unless they&#39;re being vague on the sealed for eternity fighting thing

could be just a bad translation

[TeLeKiNeSiS]

it was the fourth. there&#39;s a 4 on the coffin.

[Yondaime]

Naruto can extract the kyubi chakra because of 4th because of the way the sealing technique was performed. The overflow of Kyubi&#39;s chakra mixes with Nartuo&#39;s . And about Naruto being able to communicate with Kyubi was just a way to explain us...that he has found the key to use Kyubi&#39;s locked powers inside of him.....its a little hard to believe that he actually went inside his body with corridors and water and than there is a door with kyubi inside of it....and he speaks to him.....and it all happened while he was falling down.....

so its just that he found out that if he tries to extract kyubi&#39;s chakra it comes automatically.

and abt the 3rd coffin...yes it was the 4th.....but i guess we&#39;ll never find out the truth...unless we get Kishimoto and make him answer all our questions...

Can anybody do that??? hmmmm...it be COOL

[Uzumaki Naruto]

that would be nice, but then hell prolly just threaten to stop drawing naruto mangas bc we wont leave his ass alone

[primalspas]

i just realized something, in the manga, the third coffin stays where it is and that little eye keeps watching and commenting through the coffin, but in the anime the 3rd pushes the coffin back through the portal thing. Anyone speculate as to why they would make that change, it seems to me to actually be somewhat important in terms of future implications.

[Yondaime]

If Oro can summon people like 1st, 2nd and 4th.....why don&#39;t have just ask them to teach Oro all their forbidden jutsus....coz we know the summons have to obey their master....and after Oro put the Kunai&#39;s on their head they are without emotions and just merely puppets.....whatelse does Oro need...he wants to learn all the jutsu&#39;s in the world...and those 3 hokage&#39;s were the best shinobis in the world so got to know all the secret jutsus they created...hmmm Oro is stupid,

[Raven]

Well there&#39;s not exactly much time mid battle to learn new jutsus. http://www.gotwoot.net/forum/html/emoticons/dry.gif

[Insomniac]

he can probably only summon them once, and jutsus take awhile to learn you know.
obviously the jutsu wouldnt just have them walking around for ages - he has to remove their thoughts and such to regenerate their bodies so they can exist for a longer period of time (theory)

[PSJ]

well for the summoning thing i think orochimaru can summon a soul many diffrent times but he needs a new host body each time. but it would be a great way to learn jutsus. just summon all the four hokages(if he can summon sealed souls) and learn their jutsus. btw isnt it kinda stupid of orochimaru to want the sharingan to learn all the jutsus in the world seeing as the sharingan cant copy all jutsus?

[Nine Tailed Demon]

I want to also add, Good fucking question&#33;

[itachi_]

I first though that you woould have to sacrifise a human before creating a summoning from edo-tensei, i don&#39;t remember when it happend in the manga, it was kin and zaku, right? shouldn&#39;t it have been a flashback when he sacrifised them in episode 69 or 70 ? did orochimaru sacrifise them after or before the fight with the hokage?

[.akai]

There was a human body in the 3rd coffin. Whose was that? We don&#39;t know. (but definitely not 4th&#39;s body)
All I know is that Orochimaru was going to summon the 4th Hokage... he needed a body(vessel) to contain the soul of the 4th Hokage if the summon was successful.

Since the summon failed, we won&#39;t know for sure whether or not 4th soul even existed. All we saw was nothing more than just an empty vessel in a coffin labeled &quot;四&quot; (four/forth).



For those who were asking about this earlier, the word on the first coffin is 初, which is &quot;first&quot;.
And 一, simply means &quot;one&quot;.
The two word more or less mean the same thing depending on the context.

[Death BOO Z]

actually, the quate in my sig comes from a disscusion about this subject in the open naruto forum...

i guess that dosu was the supposed body that would become the forth... sure, he died long ago, but we don&#39;t know when zaku and kin died...

[BakaShinji]

interesting.

the third coffin doesn&#39;t sink back down - and comments on the fight as it goes along?

since when? where is it in the manga? I thought it sank like it did in the anime.

[Mut]

it can be assumed that kimimaro had a greater ability that was more useful, effctive and convinient than the sharingan, since he was orochimaru&#39;s first choice.

[.akai]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (primalspas @ Feb 17 2004, 06:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i just realized something, in the manga, the third coffin stays where it is and that little eye keeps watching and commenting through the coffin, but in the anime the 3rd pushes the coffin back through the portal thing. Anyone speculate as to why they would make that change, it seems to me to actually be somewhat important in terms of future implications. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No. I thought it sank down like it did in the anime.
-scratches head-

[Arctyc]

You never actually see the third coffin in the manga. The summoning scenes are chapter 117, pages 17-19. The eye commenting is Orochimaru hiding behind the first two.

[Lithonite]

Orochimaru knows the power of the sharinganis its increased perception and it can copy all jutsu- as long as they are not bloodline limits. It can copy them assumiing the user of the eye can understand what the increase percection is seeing. Seeing as Orochimaru is a super genious, that kind of increased perception would be extremely benficia. granted yeah he probubly could summon all the great nin and ask them- but that wont help him unless the jsutsu he wants belongs to a dead Ninja. Not to mention im guessing but aside from difficulty of summon dead Nin, that such a tehcniue requires a huge amount of chakra.. chakra that he would need when learning and praticing a jutsu he was being taugh by his summon.

So since summons would limit not nly chakra availible to be taught a new jutsu it also is limited to fact his teacher has to be dead and he would have had to have seen or heard of the jutsu to know he wantd to learn it.. no learnng on the fly.. so to speak. Simply put the sharingan is the only way for ORochimaru to get what he wants.