Sousou no Frieren [Archive]

Ryllharu

Fri, 09-29-2023, 05:35 PM

Sousou no Frieren
Frieren: Beyond Journey`s End

https://i.imgur.com/YZNzsFf.jpg

Description: For ten years, elf mage Frieren traveled with Himmel the hero, Heiter the priest, and Eisen the dwarf warrior as they quested to destroy the demon king. At the end of their journey, Frieren set out on her own, not quite understanding how differently time flows for her versus her human companions.

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First episode is out, and it is two hours long (or divided into four episodes depending on the streaming service).

This is the type of classic adventure fantasy series we've been missing among all the isekai flood.

David75

Fri, 09-29-2023, 11:53 PM

Hgh melancholy, might not be for everyone.
Everything feels pretty straightforward, not much to discuss about yet.
Regarding elves life expectancy, it feels a bit like human years are months to them. Nearly random guess.

Ryllharu

Sat, 09-30-2023, 04:31 AM

It's not a bad guess. The first split episode (from the four arriving in the city to meeting Fern) takes place across 70 years.

The central problem in the story is that Frieren is already really old and barely ages, so how long anything takes is never a concern for her. She'll stay in one town for a year simply they have a library, she doesn't realize the shopkeeper she keeps going to has aged 20 years and the entire ecology or economy of a region has changed.

Her character development is about becoming less detached and more engaged with the world so she can enjoy the fleeting time she has with those she cares about. Heiter basically had to trick her into becoming Fern's teacher.

Thankfully for Frieren, her friends do still know a lot about her, still care for her, and know how to manipulate her for her own good.

The series also has a well-conceived magic system. When Frieren first saw Fern training, she remarked about the importance of keeping your mana under control. The story with the demon and the Killing Spell is even better at showing thought into the magic system. Time advances, magic techniques advance, what worked one day may not work the next. Cool stuff.

David75

Sat, 09-30-2023, 08:03 AM

Sure, everything flowed well and it is easy to enter that world and understand a lot. Eventhough it might not be for me, since it's a little strong and melancholy, I have to admit the overall quality is very high.
I'm not found of Frieren's design and Fern dead eyes.
I do not like the recuring anime trope: old people are very short even if they were average to tall in height when young. I had to convince myself for all the ep that the old dude was Himmel.
But aside from these 3 minor details, I like what I've seen.

Somehow, Qal was probably the character I liked best, design wise. His appearance was too short, but I like that he was a genius mage for his generation. Many shows would need a vilain that good, funny he was just a 5 minute clip in a show that doesn't need him hahaha.

Ryllharu

Sat, 09-30-2023, 08:44 AM

Killing Magic is one of my favorite for sure. You had this super powerful demon who was nearly unstoppable, a genius at magic, and he had to be sealed away instead of defeated. His devastating spell made him unconquerable.

80 years later, you have a nine-year-old casting his magic in Fern's first appearance as normal practice. You just don't know it at the time.

The shock on her face when the spell she was quickly growing to fear was just everyday now, and then cutting to her reading the book is priceless.

Fern is probably my favorite character. Her dead eyes work for me for a couple reasons. She was orphaned at a young but important age, spent several years with a flat and generally emotionless elf and an 80+ year old retired bishop. She's not exactly a bubbly extrovert. But she's still much more of an adult that Frieren is because she changes and evolves. She went from a quiet shadow of a girl, traumatized by a war to stalking her mentor with puffed cheeks of disapproval on her 16th birthday. She's a stern and serious character but is opening back up slowly. The dissonance of Frieren who is truly ancient but emotionally stunted elf to a maturing and responsible woman in Fern is subtle but good.

Another detail I only caught with the anime: Fern wonders why Frieren likes collecting "useless" spells. They specifically mention one that makes grapes taste sour. An episode later, we find out that the dwarf's favorite food is sour grapes. Frieren is making up for her previous mistakes in cherishing her friends.

David75

Sat, 09-30-2023, 04:10 PM

I caught that detail too.
Somehow she found a way to extend a short time for her. Tuning that short cherished time to her time scale.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 10-01-2023, 12:26 AM

My favorite detail is how she keeps getting into "help me i'm stuck" porn situations.

But yeah, this show be depressing.

David75

Sun, 10-01-2023, 04:14 PM

Forgot to watch ep4, still stuck on my search for a lifespan estimate.
We now know she was there a millenia ago. Feels like she aged from a twelve year old to a 15 year old very rough estimate.
She mentions that 10 years is less than one hundreth of her lifespan. Not precise enough... We already know her lifespan is well over 1k
When she was stressing how short 10 years are to her, years might not even compare to months, weeks at best.
My bet is around 10k years. A human woman has a life expectancy of 78 to 82 and will often go 90 or more as 100 years though not that comon is becoming less of a surprise.
7800 to 9000 if elves live 100 times that with a less comon 10k as a possibility.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 10-01-2023, 05:56 PM

I do not like the recuring anime trope: old people are very short even if they were average to tall in height when young. I had to convince myself for all the ep that the old dude was Himmel.It especially didn't make sense to me because, the priest was even older than Himmel. Yet old man Himmel looked WAY older than the priest. Even after ANOTHER 25 years, the priest STILL didn't look as old as Himmel.

Forgot to watch ep4, still stuck on my search for a lifespan estimate.
We now know she was there a millenia ago. Feels like she aged from a twelve year old to a 15 year old very rough estimate.
She mentions that 10 years is less than one hundreth of her lifespan. Not precise enough... We already know her lifespan is well over 1k
When she was stressing how short 10 years are to her, years might not even compare to months, weeks at best.
My bet is around 10k years. A human woman has a life expectancy of 78 to 82 and will often go 90 or more as 100 years though not that comon is becoming less of a surprise.
7800 to 9000 if elves live 100 times that with a less comon 10k as a possibility.I feel like it's somewhere between 1000 and 2000 years. Because if it had been 2000 years, she would have been like "It's less than one two-hundredth of my lifespan". If it was 10k years, then she would have been like "It's less than one thousandth of my lifespan".

She wouldn't have said one hundredth if it wasn't actually close to one hundredth.

David75

Mon, 10-02-2023, 08:13 AM

I thought that too. But then I wonder why she never felt urge or anything like that when thinking about 1000 years in the future with Flamme, or now with Fern. Because if 2000 is her lifespan, she's past 50%.

I admitt I'm splitting harid and in the end the answer doesn't matter much, she outlives everyone the show started with and she started to deal with it.

Back to Himmel, it's true that the priest didn't follow the trope, even weirder Himmel had to. We have to think about it as a joke and pun, since Himmel was so fixated on his appearance and being the coolest and most beautiful. Somekind of payback

shinta|hikari

Mon, 10-02-2023, 06:35 PM

Is there any conflict or action or mystery in this show? Or is the whole plot just an elf.

Ryllharu

Mon, 10-02-2023, 06:50 PM

Is there any conflict or action or mystery in this show? Or is the whole plot just an elf.

Yes, Yes, Sometimes. No.

MFauli

Fri, 10-06-2023, 05:56 AM

First episodes were very boring, but I want to like it :/

Doesn't help that I hate the elf's attitude. That's not a difference in lifespan, she's simply being an uncaring asshole. The rare moments when she feels emotional? OK, manipulative asshole then. See it all irl.

Also Fern's design is the laziest in some time. I only realized at the beginning of episode 4 that she had grown because of her tallness. Her face, however, was the exact same from when she was a child. I'm so sick of anime who do this shit. 18 yos don't have the face of 8yos.

Hoping for some actual story to begin soon. Spending half a episode cleaning up the beach was not that.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-06-2023, 07:16 AM

I'm so sick of anime who do this shit. 18 yos don't have the face of 8yos.This your first anime, then?

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-06-2023, 08:52 AM

Doesn't help that I hate the elf's attitude. That's not a difference in lifespan, she's simply being an uncaring asshole. The rare moments when she feels emotional? OK, manipulative asshole then. See it all irl.

Frieren has been alive for at LEAST 1000 years. Think of how many people you are still in touch with in-person after 5-10 years (without the internet, only letters, which Frieren does not use and she's also always traveling so has no address). Years are nothing to her, by her own admission.

And yeah, the character development promised is that Frieren needs to be better at maintaining connections with those she has grown to care about.

Thematically, lot of similarities with Violet Evergarden's character arcs. If you hated that series, you may want to skip this one.

Also Fern's design is the laziest in some time. I only realized at the beginning of episode 4 that she had grown because of her tallness. Her face, however, was the exact same from when she was a child. I'm so sick of anime who do this shit. 18 yos don't have the face of 8yos.

Fern's design is simple and awesome. She's got big boobs now (to Frieren's joking dismay), but Fern isn't sexualized at all, a rarity for a fantasy series. She wears her simple empire-waist dress and a big billowy cloak over it, and that's it. Any other ornamentation is on her staff or on her hair clip, because she is apparently fond of jewelry (maybe because of Frieren and her ever-present red earrings?).

And yes, babyface people exist.

MFauli

Fri, 10-06-2023, 09:11 AM

I didn't watch Violet Evergarden, because the artstyle was so off putting to me, lol.

Babyface exists, but it doesn't look like an actual baby, come on.

Anyway, age is an explanation for Frieren's attitude, not an excuse. The dwarf also lives long, she could be nicer with him. Or live with other elves. It's just exhausting watching her be 'whatever'. Hopefully something more pressuring happens soon.

This your first anime, then?

First one that egregious.

David75

Fri, 10-06-2023, 10:09 AM

In all honesty, I'd love to have the means and be able to live as carefree as Frieren. But for some reason my mind prefers trouble, tricky challenges. My only saving grace is that I'm more and more of a misanthrope which saves me from lots of trouble by exiting flame pits before I get burnt :cool:

KrayZ33

Fri, 10-06-2023, 10:11 AM

I didn't watch Violet Evergarden, because the artstyle was so off putting to me, lol.

That's a bit weird, isn't it?
What am I missing, wasn't that cookie-cutter Kyoto animation goodness (with even more quality)?
Like Amagi Brilliant Park, Hyoka, Chuni and Kyokai no Kanata - which I'm pretty sure you watched some of them?

Not blaming you for not watching it, because I didn't even like the show that much. To me, the highlights were the music an animation. Even though I bawled my eyes out when she visited the novel-writer whose child died from cancer. That scene when Violet jumps over the lake with the parasol in hand will probably remain with me for the end of my life.
And it did well getting the point across that letters are an *extremely* powerful way of communication.

Welp anyway, WEIRDO! How can you shy away from that animation.

(edit: Lmao, I went to the toilet after posting this and now and close to crying because I remembered that scene, time to play some video games so I can suppress it again.)

MFauli

Fri, 10-06-2023, 10:49 AM

That's a bit weird, isn't it?
What am I missing, wasn't that cookie-cutter Kyoto animation goodness (with even more quality)?
Like Amagi Brilliant Park, Hyoka, Chuni and Kyokai no Kanata - which I'm pretty sure you watched some of them?

Not blaming you for not watching it, because I didn't even like the show that much. To me, the highlights were the music an animation. Even though I bawled my eyes out when she visited the novel-writer whose child died from cancer. That scene when Violet jumps over the lake with the parasol in hand will probably remain with me for the end of my life.
And it did well getting the point across that letters are an *extremely* powerful way of communication.

Welp anyway, WEIRDO! How can you shy away from that animation.

(edit: Lmao, I went to the toilet after posting this and now and close to crying because I remembered that scene, time to play some video games so I can suppress it again.)

Of those, only Amagi, and only because the girl was hot 🤷*♀️

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-06-2023, 10:52 PM

In all honesty, I'd love to have the means and be able to live as carefree as Frieren. But for some reason my mind prefers trouble, tricky challenges.
https://media.tenor.com/PEH40Ie9ayQAAAAC/i-dont-want-peace-i-want-problems-always.gif
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David75

Sat, 10-07-2023, 02:33 AM

Not far from my truths hahaha

Ryllharu

Sat, 10-07-2023, 06:25 AM

Anyway, age is an explanation for Frieren's attitude, not an excuse. The dwarf also lives long, she could be nicer with him. Or live with other elves.
There's a hint in the OP why Frieren doesn't live with the other elves, but they'll probably explain it in this run so I'll leave it off there. They've mentioned a few pieces of it already. (edit: there's actually two hints)

Dwarves don't live that much longer than humans, relative to elves.

You should be asking why Frieren was apprenticed to the greatest human mage who has ever lived.

Healing Frieren's detachment from others is blatantly her main character development. They say it right to the audience's face, over and over.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-13-2023, 06:56 PM

Eps 6

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All Hail Fern, best of the stern.

This episode had weirdly good animation, even after the action scenes were done. Lot of detail on sitting down, being handed a milk, and other stuff.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 10-16-2023, 02:37 PM

This show is amazing, I'm surprised that it's not unanimously liked here.

Laid-back, melancholy/humorous adventure with effectively two stories going in parallel. So good.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 10-16-2023, 05:00 PM

Because of the decision to release 4 episodes at once, I haven't gotten around to watching it because it takes a bit of an investment to go through them in one go.

Ryllharu

Mon, 10-16-2023, 06:06 PM

They're more episodic than you think.

They're not a movie like Oshi no Ko was. They're more like the thematic prologue (or "the first arc") that leads to the focused adventure of the series.

Watch the first four however you please and in any combination, or solo. One sitting not required in the slightest.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 10-16-2023, 07:34 PM

I see.

Then why the heck did they release it together??

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-21-2023, 01:02 AM

07

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Finally, something happen.

Interesting message to this one. "Racism is correct." :p

David75

Sat, 10-21-2023, 04:15 AM

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-21-2023, 06:55 AM

More like spieciesm ?
My take is that racism is a phobia between members of the same species on any number of subcategory they adhere to.
Spiecism is a phobia or sets of rules beetween species. What matters here is that cause for phobia or rules are not arbitrarily set by individuals or groups of individual, but mainly set by nature and species characterisrics.I'm just using Race in the traditional D&D/RPG sense, which refers to Humans or Elves or Orcs or Goblins as races.

A predator won't stop preying for long.
I like that this ep didn't try to tell otherwise. If you can somehow have a lion as a pet, you're never 100% sure it won't kill or arm you at some point.Lions aren't intelligent enough to reason, and also, their predatory instincts are designed for their survival.

They said demons don't need to eat people to survive. So they're basically an entire race of serial killers.

Which makes sense in the traditional D&D template for demons. Where they are literally made of evil from a dimension of pure evil. But most modern fantasy anime just treats them like another fantasy race.

David75

Sat, 10-21-2023, 07:10 AM

I lacked some cultural elements.
Basically those demons are home cats :D, joke, but not by much.
Still, their behavior is in their nature. Their nature is killing humans using any language or social intelligence means.
Not something you come regularly across in anime.

Kraco

Sat, 10-21-2023, 02:58 PM

It seems to me in most Japanese fantasy (including isekai) these days, demons are merely given the role of an agent in social commentary, where humans are the really evil party and demons are much better, even if in the initial setting they were made to look worse, often through the propaganda going on in the human realm. The setting in this series is much more interesting when demons truly are hopelessly evil from the human point of view, even if they can be communicated with. If you consider the picture this episode paints, the demons might be considered something similar to a destructive AI in some scifi, like Terminator. There's no problem with communicating with it, but it's still fundamentally unreasonable and unfathomable.

Unfortunately humans have a tendency to judge everything based on their own standards, which is why the demons are being given a chance in this episode, and the demons are readily exploiting the chance.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 10-24-2023, 06:15 AM

What a flex. "I'm stronger than your boss".

It's strange how no one recognises her though. Frieren herself said that she's only met a single elf in 400 years. That means she's the only elf most humans meet ever. How do you not associate that with the legendary elf statue that stands in your village that looks exactly like her.

"You must complement Frieren-sama for waking up early" was pretty funny.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-24-2023, 08:18 AM

What a flex. "I'm stronger than your boss".By now, she's probably stronger than his boss's boss.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 10-27-2023, 11:13 AM

Episode 08

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Oh shiiit.

Stark being Stark.
Fern having control to the point of not leaking any mana at all.
Frieren creating wind blades out of nowhere.

They're bending the meaning of "wild beasts" a bit the more we learn about demons. Yes they're evil, but they also pursue magic. what's more is that this demon appreciates beauty in effort like one appreciates art. A being like that has to know what a father is. They can't just know it as "it's a word that ignites sympathy in humans when we use it".

Kraco

Fri, 10-27-2023, 03:24 PM

A good call from Frieren to make those two fight on their own. That's the only way to really build their character.

Since the demons disintegrate into nothing but mana particles when dying, it makes sense they are all interested in magic. They don't seem to be that interested in anything else. I reckon they are driven to kill humans using their specialty magic because what good is only theory? They surely must also keep experimenting with their personal magic to develop it further.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-27-2023, 11:40 PM

Aw yeah! Akshun!

A good call from Frieren to make those two fight on their own. That's the only way to really build their character.More importantly, it's the only way to have a story. :p

David75

Sat, 10-28-2023, 12:03 AM

Frieren is a battle freak, smile tells it all.

Fren was in stealth mode and I remember Frieren telling how good she is at concealing her magic. I guess that now that she's older, she's even better.
Also, I think the reason people can't associate Frieren with her statue is because she also is in stealth mode. But it is a permanent mode. Maybe not full Stealth, but strong enough that people do not bother her. It would totally match her behavior and easygoing way of life.

Ryllharu

Sat, 10-28-2023, 07:17 AM

When Frieren brought it up the first time, it came with the implication that Fern is naturally even better at concealing her mana than Frieren herself.

Now we know why she thought it was such a useful ability to have. Love the absolute imperious way Frieren and Fern glare down at their enemies while floating. The demon guy is right, it is purposefully demeaning to demons, as is the way that Frieren has seeded human magic systems with demon magic. They get unsettled that their "life's work" gets surpassed and amplified by 'weak' humanity.

Stark is no slouch either, he is really strong and trained exceptionally well to react in battle appropriately. I thought it was funny that he though Fern could jump up and grab his hand from that height. Plus, he understands the value of a tactical retreat.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-28-2023, 08:40 AM

Plus, he understands the value of a tactical retreat.Does he though? I'm pretty sure that's just him being cowardly again. Because I think they two of them could have easily taken those 2 demons.

Apparently, soloing a dragon did nothing to help him evaluate his own strength better, because he's still convinced he's a weaking.

Ryllharu

Sat, 10-28-2023, 09:15 AM

Does he though? I'm pretty sure that's just him being cowardly again. Because I think they two of them could have easily taken those 2 demons.

Apparently, soloing a dragon did nothing to help him evaluate his own strength better, because he's still convinced he's a weaking.

The fear is what makes him stronger than someone who has comparative physical strength. That's what Eisen was pointing out.

Stark is very strong. Stronger than Eisen was 80 years ago at his own peak. But Stark is still afraid of strong enemies. He's never overconfident because of it. That gives Stark a distinct edge. He is cautious because he's always wondering if he'll die facing an opponent.

He has a good balance of pride not to run away when he needs to and goad an opponent into paying attention to him, but he's cautious enough not to make fatal mistakes.

They can't afford losing the lord of the city. The demons want him too, so even if the demons think they have the advantage because they can find Stark, Fern, and the lord, with their blood spatter, they are still forced into the position of chasing Fern and Stark. With Fern's proficiency in suppresses her mana, that means the duo can reset for another ambush.

The only other strategy the demons might have is to start slaughtering all the townspeople to lure Stark and Fern out, but even then, Fern can likely obliterate them from beyond the demon's own range. The demons had the advantage inside of the castle's rooms after Fern made her presence known.

So yeah, tactical retreat was the best call.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-28-2023, 12:20 PM

They can't afford losing the lord of the city.That guy's fine. The demons were planning to torture him a bunch, so he's obviously not in danger of bleeding out right away.

They're bending the meaning of "wild beasts" a bit the more we learn about demons. Yes they're evil, but they also pursue magic. what's more is that this demon appreciates beauty in effort like one appreciates art. A being like that has to know what a father is. They can't just know it as "it's a word that ignites sympathy in humans when we use it".It's irritating. They're intelligent enough to figure out "words can make them hesitate in killing us" but not smart enough to figure out "the reason they kill us in the first place is because we kill them". Since we've still not been given a reason WHY they kill humans in the first place, there's no reason why they should. Because all it does is get the demons killed in return.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 11-03-2023, 11:06 AM

E9

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Well as soon as we get the gist that the girl was imitating Eisen, we knew she was fucked since Eisen said outright that Stark was stronger than him. Seeing him tank that hit was unexpected though since he's not exactly supposed to be durable as far as we know.

Fern being quicker wasn't something I saw coming. Leaving barriers to Fern during the fight with Qual makes even more sense now.

David75

Fri, 11-03-2023, 12:48 PM

It's true we didn't have the full picture fed to us before, only bits and pieces, but Fern is very good at fine mana manipulation and fast.
No wonder Lügner quickly understood he would die before she's depleted in a battle of attrition.
She's so efficient, even with less mana she can outlast him.
And I think she didn't even break a sweat of bat an eyelid. Somehow she's very much like Frieren when fighting.

As for Stark, well the shoulder slash didn't kill him. I guess that was a surprise... A bad one for my tastes. But since he can slash mountains, why not. He's no magician, but he probably still even unconsiously mobilize mana in his fights, like when blocking that slash.

Kraco

Fri, 11-03-2023, 01:43 PM

Fighters would be totally useless against monsters and demons if they couldn't make themselves much tougher than random humans. Based on what the demon girl was saying, she reads the opponent's mana flow and can then copy their movements. From that we obviously know qualified (worth anything) fighters use mana to boost their physical prowess. It makes sense that also includes defence, not only attack.

This should have been a decently educating experience for both Fern and Stark.

David75

Fri, 11-03-2023, 02:06 PM

Thank you Kraco, I didn't connect all the dots, Linnie clearly told us what I was trying to paraphrase.
Stark is extremely strong, so much so he doesn't even know himself.
That's probably why he kept his right eye, his raw defence activated. That was my first gripe.
He bleeds easily, but does not take much damage.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 11-03-2023, 02:09 PM

This should have been a decently educating experience for both Fern and Stark.Yeah, maybe Stark will learn...the exact same thing he should have learned from the dragon.

"Oh, I'm actually very strong, and I should actually fucking attack."

Ryllharu

Sat, 11-04-2023, 09:28 AM

Yeah, maybe Stark will learn...the exact same thing he should have learned from the dragon.

"Oh, I'm actually very strong, and I should actually fucking attack."

His fear is what makes Stark stronger than Eisen. Demons specialize in manipulating their enemies to have them let down their guard because that's the type of inhumane predators they are. Humans get overconfident, and then they get killed or worse (like what Aura does) because demons play weak when they can, either to give them a new opening or because they think it is entertaining to toy with their prey.

Stark has confidence issues, but his fear is what will keep him alive because he will never get overconfident. Eisen was the same way.

The series is pretty consistent in the point that to successfully hunt demons as Frieren has for a millennium, you are either go full force on them right away like she does, or you goad them into trying to toy with you first, like Fern does.

Frieren has been teaching Fern to be underestimated for being a human, or for Fern to imitate her to make them furious. Eisen's strategy for his protege is simply keep getting back up and smash them. Hah.

Linie kept thinking that Stark was weak, or at best "strong for a human," which is what warriors need to kill demons. Aura has the same weakness when someone has strong willpower, but she found a gruesome way around that.

edit:
Also, Stark has been in legitimately like...four real battles. He ran off during training, stared down a dragon, then trained again for another two years.

We learned that Frieren has been doing her lazy thing again and making Fern do all the fighting since they started traveling, but mostly so Fern can excel and have experience to make up what she lacks in capacity.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 11-04-2023, 11:38 AM

She's so efficient, even with less mana she can outlast him.
I thought the key wasn't that her efficiency mean she'd outlast his mana, it's that her actions-per-minute would land enough hits to kill him since his defence will allow him to be struck too many times before her mana ran out.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 11-10-2023, 12:26 PM

Episode 10

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Seeing Flamme old hit harder than any other character, probably because she was a mentor to Frieren, and despite the Hero party having the most impact on Frieren emotionally, to our (my) eyes Flamme was a parental figure and thus family.

Interestingly, despite Flamme being the greatest mage, she had no confidence in being able to kill the demon king. She had technique, but needed someone with a long life who could combine that with huge mana.

The logic behind demons hiding their magic for stealth but coming out when the enemy is a mage doesn't fully make sense. From what we've been shown, only mages can assess others' mana flow. Himmel and Eisen looked to the priest for assessment, and a priest is just a weak mage. Thus hiding mana seems to be a useless technique for demons if they go all out for mages.

As for Frieren's love for magic.. it seems like she loved it at first, but training under Flamme meant her magic exposure was limited to control and combat. Himmel encouraging her to find useless spells must have sparked her love for magic again despite still saying overwise.

Ryllharu

Fri, 11-10-2023, 02:43 PM

This would make sense why the Demon King would go after elves as a whole 1,000 years ago.

They're the only race out there who can live long enough to surpass demonkind with honed mana capacity, which inherently makes them a threat to demonic hierarchy.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 11-10-2023, 09:04 PM

"That's right Freeza. I've learned to suppress my power level!"

Kraco

Sat, 11-11-2023, 07:47 AM

The logic behind demons hiding their magic for stealth but coming out when the enemy is a mage doesn't fully make sense. From what we've been shown, only mages can assess others' mana flow. Himmel and Eisen looked to the priest for assessment, and a priest is just a weak mage. Thus hiding mana seems to be a useless technique for demons if they go all out for mages.

You first need to get close to your target to fight them. I imagine the more you passively release mana, the farther away other mages or sensitive people/demons/monster will detect you. It might also be necessary sometimes to avoid fights if your mission is something else. However, I reckon demons instinctively compare themselves to other demons, and other magic using creatures, and thus, when facing off, don't try to suppress their mana at all. Clearly weaker demons would likely succumb. Human mages might lose hope if there's a huge difference. I don't consider it impossible a lone demon would develop a unique way of life by suppressing mana, but it would affect the demon's standing in the demon world.

Suppressing mana, as such, must not be anything outlandish for the demons, as Aura talked about it leisurely, it's just living one's whole life while suppressing mana that seems too ridiculous to believe for the demons. In fact it ought to be so for most human mages as well.

In this particular case of the demons confronting Flamme+Frieren, my bet is they tried to separate Flamme and Frieren from each other by lying about letting Flamme leave. They would have then killed both one by one, which should be easier in most cases. So, showing their full mana power level makes perfect sense.

MFauli

Tue, 11-14-2023, 01:31 PM

Watched episode 7. This is a bad anime, but I'm too far to quit now. It's like every character is trying to 1up each other at "how boring can I sound". And the whole "it's supposed to be that way" is no good argument to defend that shit.

Also "Lord Lügner", lol. I thought we were past the random use of German nouns in Japanese stories. For those unaware, Lügner means "liar", so he's literally called "Lord Liar", rofl.

No idea how this anime got popular, but I guess that says a lot about the quality of this year's fall season. Rock bottom.

Ryllharu

Wed, 11-15-2023, 04:08 PM

Also "Lord Lügner", lol. I thought we were past the random use of German nouns in Japanese stories. For those unaware, Lügner means "liar", so he's literally called "Lord Liar", rofl.

Is it "random" if that is literally his role in the arc?

MFauli

Wed, 11-15-2023, 04:55 PM

Is it "random" if that is literally his role in the arc?

Then "random" is the wrong word, but it's dumb. Why not name the villain "Lord Badguy" next? And the love interest "Miss Futurewife"? :(

Anyway, I'm up-to-date now. Criticism remains. It's dumb to make all characters react as bored as possible. And it's another case of "heroes are all powerful without working for it". Yeah, yeah, somewhere offscreen they trained for years, yadayada. But it's lame when a young mage girl just overwhelms a demon lord, without changing her facial expression - even when she was pierced, lol.

Ryllharu

Wed, 11-15-2023, 05:38 PM

You're seriously missing the point, and actually arguing Lügner's dumbass excuses he tried to make to comfort himself post-Hubris loss to Fern.

Fern trained for years under arguably the most accomplished mage in all of history, who herself trained under the most famous mage in all of history. Frieren has doubled down on this and forced Fern to do most of the fighting the last several years in order to have Fern rapidly catch up in experience. Fern is debatably one of the best mages around, and certainly for her age, due to Frieren's honestly rather brutal training methods that are disguised as Frieren being lazy.

Fern has a strange attitude due to the harsh life she'd had until their journey started. She's just a cold and closed off person. But she's also a hard worker, and they've always shown that. She practiced zoltraak every single day for years and years until she could pierce that rock.

Demons train and practice and refine their specific spell of favor for centuries at a time and take enormous pride in it. They lament that "geniuses" exist like Frieren and retrospectively (lol) Fern. They are too stupidly prideful to admit that humans or elves could ever be better than they are at magic. They are literally fabricating reasons for their "unfair" loss. Fern is simply better at magic than Lügner. Just like Stark is a better fighter than Lanie. And Frieren has always been stronger than Aura.

Fern and Frieren (and Flamme) both trick demons by suppressing their magic. That gives them an edge and encourages the demons to fail, but they are by no means weak. Demons stagnate. We were led to believe that Frieren stagnated too, but instead she was following Flamme's order to build a truly monstrous mana pool.

Bottom line, the demons lie to themselves when they lose. They refuse to admit that someone better than them can possibly exist. They've fallen behind the curve of development in magic and they're very bothered by it.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-15-2023, 06:50 PM

Then "random" is the wrong word, but it's dumb. Why not name the villain "Lord Badguy" next? And the love interest "Miss Futurewife"?"It's Dutch for Dark Father!"

Fern has a strange attitude due to the harsh life she'd had until their journey started.Or Elves just be like that. We have no point of comparison.

Wed, 11-15-2023, 08:00 PM

I'm confused how naming the guy an unsubtle German loanword is an issue at all. You know the characters in Dragonball Z are named Vegetable and Freezer right?

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-15-2023, 08:08 PM

I'm confused how naming the guy an unsubtle German loanword is an issue at all. You know the characters in Dragonball Z are named Vegetable and Freezer right?Yes, but those are just name. Not literal spoilers for what the character's deal is.

Also, a con artist that calls himself Mr. Conartist probably wouldn't be very successful.

Wed, 11-15-2023, 08:21 PM

It's not a "spoiler" that the character is duplicitous, though. Within minutes of meeting him Frieren tells the rest of the cast exactly what his deal is. You aren't gaining speed on the story by understanding his name. It's like saying the character in 101 Dalmatians obviously being named Cruel Devil is spoiling the movie for you.

Also, Lugner appears to be a real and well known actual last name, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lugner

Nominative determinism is a really common concept in fiction, and in anime and manga especially.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-15-2023, 11:19 PM

Nominative determinism is a really common concept in fiction, and in anime and manga especially.Yes, but it's especially stupid when you don't want people to KNOW that you're the thing you're named after.

"I dunno why, Mr. Kidkill, but I don't feel like I can trust you to watch my kids."

Just maybe, Lord Liar is a bad name for your diplomat to have.

Thu, 11-16-2023, 01:52 AM

The characters in the show don't speak German. They don't know his name means Liar.

Also, the whole point of Lugner's character is that you get suckered in by his delivery and panache even though logically everyone that lives in the setting knows he's lying. It's the same thing as the demon murderer child in the flashback. They KNOW it's evil and has no moral compass but buy into its performance.

Kraco

Thu, 11-16-2023, 03:17 AM

MFauli

Thu, 11-16-2023, 05:32 AM

The only thing wrong about the name is that MFauli's native tongue is German and he's not amused anymore by random anime characters having German nouns as names. He said it himself: "I thought we were past the random use of German nouns in Japanese stories." That's all. Authors themselves have been playing with character names since the antiquity. A few stories take it to the ultimate extreme, like Goblin Slayer, where nobody has a name, only a title. That's a conscious choice by the author, as well.

This series is using nouns or adjectives as names at large, anyway. It might not be as deep as some other series (although maybe it is, and I'm just not paying enough attention), but it's there, nonetheless. Like Stark, whose name means strong/potent. He was actually first introduced as a coward, but he's also strong, whenever he's finally driven to the corner. Aura, the latest big demon, was basically all about the aura because her ultimate technique was based on whose mana pool is stronger, which usually is evident simply by measuring the aura a magician/demon emits. Relying on that was her downfall, though.

Beyond mere annoyance, I also find that it ruins (good) stories. I remember when Xenoblade 3 for Switch was announced and within hours, people within the Xeno-community had figured out the basic plot of the game, because the characters had names such as "Noah, Mio, N, M, or Offseer". There even was a diagram in the officially released material that made it extra easy to connect the dots. I mean, when your franchise is known for existential, sometimes biblical elements, what else could the story be about when the hero is called "Noah"?! :/

I also remember from Naruto, when Sasuke was fighting Danzou, and Sasuke got those two new crazy Sharingan-techniques, Izanamai and .. Izasagi or whatever. And people were simply googling those names and immediately knew what they were about, because Kishimoto simply took those names from existing legends.

Stuff like that is bad, because it spoils the things to come. Of course, since I consider Frieren (which btw is German for "(someone who's freezing") a bad, basicbitch story, there's not much ruined, but it's still an annoyance.

David75

Thu, 11-16-2023, 07:48 AM

Might be bad, but is also mimicking reality. I feel like naming people with their main "something different from others" is very common in France, Japan and maybe around the world.
All the smiths, boucher (butcher), legrand (bigguy), charpentier/carpenter, and a myriad others tell us its extremely common.
Is it well used here? maybe not, but Lügner probably named himself as a cunning joke. Or the demon naming him was a joker. I don't know how demons get a name in that show. I'd like they name themselves, funnier in the context of what we're discussing :-)

Kraco

Thu, 11-16-2023, 10:15 AM

Most manga/anime/game plots are simple enough that I wouldn't bother getting spoiled by names. Whenever there's a story with a bigger twist, I can't recall having been spoiled by names alone. Personally I also like villains having evil sounding names. That ought to be language/culture dependent, but despite Finnish not even being an Indo-European language, I still find Sauron to sound like the name of an evil guy and Mordor a place that wouldn't serve as a happy tourist resort.

German words often sound good and strong, so I won't blame the Japanese for wanting to use them like that. In this series' case, I'm absolutely certain the author even knows what the words mean.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 11-16-2023, 12:55 PM

A few stories take it to the ultimate extreme, like Goblin Slayer, where nobody has a name, only a title. That's a conscious choice by the author, as well.A consciously dumb choice by the author, btw.

But, again, it makes more sense there, because Goblin Slayer isn't trying to hide the fact that he slays goblins. Presumably Lugner wouldn't want to advertise the fact that he's a liar. It's counterproductive.

Personally I also like villains having evil sounding names.And that works, for a villain that WANTS to intimidate. The terrifying warlord calling himself Bloodfist. The wicked pirate calling himself Blackheart. They're TRYING to inspire fear and obedience.

It doesn't work for a villain that wants to inspire trust and complacency to call himself Lord Liar.

That's like calling your secret evil advisor something like, oh, I dunno...Wormtongue.

Kraco

Thu, 11-16-2023, 02:58 PM

It doesn't work for a villain that wants to inspire trust and complacency to call himself Lord Liar.

That's like calling your secret evil advisor something like, oh, I dunno...Wormtongue.

It's not like Lugner would have been born and lived centuries, or at least many decades (I don't remember if it was mentioned) just for the sake of this one mission. The way I see it, this was just something the demons decided to do on a whim, more or less. It was based on nothing but the humans being really, really tired of fearing the demons every time they exit the town gates. So, against their better judgement, they decided to give the demons a chance, cautiously. So, no matter what the demon diplomat's name was, the whole thing was unlikely from the beginning. The name wouldn't really matter.

Perhaps Lugner got his name a long time ago and it was related to his personal history. It's possible the humans had forgotten or at least this town's folks never knew about it. If you look at our world, people in the highest political positions kept trusting Putin until the open war against Ukraine was finally launched last year. Before that, Putin had already done great many things to remove all trust, but when people really hope for the best, they only see and hear what they want to see and hear.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 11-16-2023, 03:22 PM

It's not like Lugner would have been born and lived centuries, or at least many decades (I don't remember if it was mentioned) just for the sake of this one mission.Okay, fair. But then lie about your name!

"Greetings! My name is Lord Ehrlich. I'm here to negotiate on behalf of the Demon Peace Association."

Buffalobiian

Fri, 11-17-2023, 11:42 AM

Episode 11

-----------------------------

See, I was bothered by how if Fern should not have been able to sneak up on Frieren if she had a healthy mana pool. If Heiter started the training then it all makes sense.

I also liked that Frieren didn't tell her story to the monk. It keeps Heiter special, and is consistent with Frieren's general secrecy about her technique.

The menacing tree-lopper and Stark being paraded while unconscious were gold.

Kraco

Fri, 11-17-2023, 12:44 PM

Stark must have fallen ill, otherwise it's hard to imagine he would be the one to become General Winter's first victim. Especially since it wasn't even that cold, by the looks of it. Those three did nothing to shield their heads and hands, after all. Anyone with experience of sub-zero temperatures with the additional wind effect knows that's no good. But then again, who knows where the mangaka lives. Probably down south, in Okinawa where the only ice exists in WcDonald's soda cups. Anyway, Fern should have just put a rope around Stark's waist and then used magic to float him.

It's pretty funny they used six months in that random cottage, just like that. It really shows Frieren has a very loose concept of time, with Fern and Stark being infected by her already. Maybe the mountains would have been impossible to cross in deep snow, but in six months they could have visited other places on their side of the mountains.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 11-17-2023, 01:09 PM

I'd argue that they'd get lost traveling in winter like that since that's the main issue initially (as well as hypothermia).

But then despite being lost, they found the cabin just fine.

David75

Fri, 11-17-2023, 02:42 PM

I wouldn't be surprised Frieren has some sort of GMPS: Global Mana Positioning System. She probably can recognize any place from its mana signature and many other places along the way, probably ley lines too.

Kraco

Fri, 11-17-2023, 02:50 PM

DarthEnderX

Sat, 11-18-2023, 12:06 AM

Well now that we have another Elf for comparison, I guess Frieren is just weird.

Also, Elves aren't just uncommon, they're so rare that individual Elves think their race might be extinct.

Also also, despite being 1000, Frieren is apparently still considered young.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 11-18-2023, 11:55 AM

Also also, despite being 1000, Frieren is apparently still considered young.

How did you come to that opinion?

I'm sure we'll see Kraft again. He's apparently a big shot, going by their dialogue. At the very least, he's accomplished.

edit: I see it's when he calls Frieren young, because he finds her lack of belief in a Goddess to be a thought suited to the young, while he's supposedly lived to much that everyone who knew of his deeds has died and only the Goddess will remember who he truly is.

But that's just because Frieren only defeated the Demon Lord 80 years ago and people still remember her. If she had defeated the Demon Lord in the first half of her life and isn't as emotionally stunted as she is, she could feel similarly about how no one remembers her deeds from 500 years ago.

After that comment, he actually invited Frieren to share her life story with him and he'd do the same back, then he'd praise her. She declined though. So I don't think he's necessarily aware of her true age.

Kraco

Sat, 11-18-2023, 02:04 PM

After that comment, he actually invited Frieren to share her life story with him and he'd do the same back, then he'd praise her. She declined though. So I don't think he's necessarily aware of her true age.

I was going to write the same, but then I remembered they spent six months sharing that same small cottage, surrounded by the harsh winter that prevented them from doing much. What exactly would they do there all those weeks and months if not talk about stuff? Surely something as basic as their ages weas mentioned in the talks, directly or indirectly (to be inferred from stuff they would discuss, like ancient things one would have needed to live through to know about). That specific talk, where he called her young, was in the early spring, so most of their time together was behind them already, maybe five months or more.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 11-18-2023, 03:02 PM

How did you come to that opinion?The other elf literally called her "still young".

So I don't think he's necessarily aware of her true age.If that's the case, then that's fine. But I don't see any reason to doubt him at this time. I would assume that elves are better able to tell the age of other elves than other races are.

Ryllharu

Sat, 11-18-2023, 05:53 PM

It's not like it's a snowstorm throughout the whole winter. A bloody long winter, six months, btw. Especially since Frieren and Fern can levitate high up in the sky, how could they even get lost when a snowstorm isn't blocking the view? I feel like Fern didn't want to wander the wilderness in the winter cold and snow, it being too uncomfortable, Stark would be too scared to do it, and for Frieren mere six months means nothing.

Plenty of mountain passes are blocked for the entire winter and spring due to snow. 5-9 meters of snow from the winter can last well into August. I don't think it is that unreasonable to wait.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 11-18-2023, 10:47 PM

Plenty of mountain passes are blocked for the entire winter and spring due to snow. 5-9 meters of snow from the winter can last well into August.Counterpoint: FIREBALL!

Kraco

Sun, 11-19-2023, 04:53 AM

Plenty of mountain passes are blocked for the entire winter and spring due to snow. 5-9 meters of snow from the winter can last well into August. I don't think it is that unreasonable to wait.

In my previous post, about the same issue, I said the mountains would have likely been too difficult to cross, but they could have found other places to visit on their side of the mountain range.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 11-24-2023, 11:51 AM

Episode 12

--------------------

This episode was full of feels. They had the Eizen/Hamburger thing, but then one upped it by showing his brother cook one for him as well.

Ryllharu

Fri, 11-24-2023, 05:55 PM

Yeah, it's the slow but touching moments like this where the series truly shines.

Kraco

Sat, 11-25-2023, 04:09 PM

It even had that potion of every man's romance.

David75

Sun, 11-26-2023, 02:36 AM

And those angles with Frieren reading in her night gown, for fan service of course...

Buffalobiian

Fri, 12-01-2023, 01:12 PM

Episode 13

-------------

I didn't actually expect them to recruit a priest, but if things are going to get more deadly then Stark will need help.

Kraco

Fri, 12-01-2023, 04:52 PM

Stark is still too green if he couldn't tough out a simple snake bite. But at least they acquired a jaded priest because of it.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 12-01-2023, 06:54 PM

Stark must be all Str and no Con.

Frieren's seduction technique is A+.

Kraco

Sat, 12-02-2023, 03:31 AM

Frieren's seduction technique is A+.

I don't understand how the elves are going extinct when their seduction techniques are so high level.

MFauli

Sat, 12-02-2023, 06:21 AM

So, there's a village surrouned by snakes that will make your brain melt if you get bitten. And it's incurable unless being treated by the best regular mage within minutes. Why again are we living here?

I don't understand how the elves are going extinct when their seduction techniques are so high level.

BECAUSE NOBODY IN THIS WORLD HAS SEX. But seriously, it feels like every girl must be "pure", Fern calling all men with a slight interest in women "perverts", Frieren being completely frigid apparently. It's quite frustrating. Typical virgin mangaka writing where ONLY AT THE END OF THE STORY someone is allowed to be in a relationship, sigh.

David75

Sat, 12-02-2023, 09:25 AM

The setting of that universe does not encourage recreative sex.
So I'm not surprised we only get average jokes and very mild fanservice, very scarcely.
Fern has grown in a church environment. Anything male is suspicious.
Frieren is too young relative to her race too know what arousal is.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 12-02-2023, 10:48 AM

So, there's a village surrouned by snakes that will make your brain melt if you get bitten. And it's incurable unless being treated by the best regular mage within minutes. Why again are we living here?Probably because it's doesn't have dragon over the next hill or a demon that shows you your loved ones so it can eat you.

Typical virgin mangaka writing where ONLY AT THE END OF THE STORY someone is allowed to be in a relationship, sigh.Not even then! Poor Himmel...

Buffalobiian

Fri, 12-08-2023, 01:30 PM

Episode 14

----------

Stark is deep in the "Just apologise always" territory of his relationship now.

I always like hearing the variation in Himmel's voice. The small deviations he makes from his soothing baseline seem to convey so much without ever being in-your-face.

You get a similar thing with Fern and how she says "Mr Stark?" with different tones meaning different things.

Ryllharu

Sat, 12-09-2023, 07:50 AM

A cute soothing episode all around.

Fern is never the type to admit that she's fond of someone except for Heiter. But after three hours of shopping, and that's the only item she reacted to, you know she knew exactly what it meant from the start, just like Himmel.

Frieren being immature herself but always trying to play off as the older sister type to those around her is delightful lack of awareness.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 12-09-2023, 08:04 AM

When Sein says "older woman" he must just mean "big boobed woman".

Ryllharu

Sat, 12-09-2023, 08:42 AM

Yeah, he means Onee-san at the very least, cougars, or MILFs. Not that this series ever has any of those in the hero era or the present era. He wants Flamme at her prime.

Not basically immortal petite elf.

Kraco

Sat, 12-09-2023, 06:37 PM

It's actually quite strange not more of Flamme's mature character rubbed off on Frieren. Perhaps some did, but it disappeared during the long centuries Frieren was busy trying her best not to be busy at all, living like a hermit. After all, there are different sorts of maturity: physique, social behavior, and others. Frieren looks like a teenager, her social skills can sometimes be questionable (especially when reading people), but apart from that, her age and experience do show.

MFauli

Sat, 12-09-2023, 07:50 PM

So everyone in this anime dies a virgin, eh? Himmel clearly loved Frieren, but never made a proper approach. And now Stark says "Fern, I totally didn't mean to give you a lovers' wristband!!11", when he could have instead said "Well, that isn't so bad then" or something like that.

Sex = baaaad! Never forget, anime fans!1

It's not suprising at all that Japan is in a deep population crisis when they cannot even let their fictional characters get to it ...

shinta|hikari

Sat, 12-09-2023, 08:32 PM

Himmel knelt on one knee and put an eternal love symbol ring on her finger. That was as straightforward and daring an approach as it gets. Freiren is just asexual, as she already explicitly mentioned most elves (as rare as they are) are. They are so bad at romance and sex that they are going extinct for it. Himmel had no chance, and he knew it, so no matter how hard he pushed, it was going nowhere.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 12-10-2023, 02:48 AM

So everyone in this anime dies a virgin, eh?

Himmel had grandkids so no.

I'm also not convinced that Fern knew of the ring's significance before Sein mentioned it. She made no reaction when Frieren said Himmel gave a ring of similar design to her as she seemingly lost it in her luggage.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 12-10-2023, 08:04 AM

Himmel had no chance, and he knew it, so no matter how hard he pushed, it was going nowhere.I feel like if he just laid it out in a straightforward and businesslike manner, he might have been able to negotiate her into it.

"I have obtained a copy of a spell that lets you speak to ducks. I would like to exchange this for one sex please."

shinta|hikari

Sun, 12-10-2023, 12:13 PM

One sex holy shit that is some messed up shit.

He was in love with Freiren. If he just wanted sex, he was handsome enough to get any random beauty anywhere.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 12-10-2023, 02:10 PM

One sex holy shit that is some messed up shit.Yes it is. But that is how you communicate with Frieren. She not understand this "love" you speak of.

Look where being poetic got him. Nowhere.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 12-10-2023, 02:15 PM

I mean, she is asexual, so even in the off chance she agrees, she will just lie there like a tuna.

That is NOT how sex with someone you love should be, or any sex for that matter. I'd rather just abstain than that.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 12-10-2023, 02:38 PM

Himmel had grandkids so no.

Actually I mistook the crying people and his big house for having grandkids. So maybe he didn't get any.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-11-2023, 12:53 AM

I mean, she is asexual, so even in the off chance she agrees, she will just lie there like a tuna.Sounds hot!

Buffalobiian

Mon, 12-11-2023, 01:08 AM

Sounds hot!

Now that's something I expected from MFauli.

MFauli

Mon, 12-11-2023, 02:02 AM

Now that's something I expected from MFauli.

Darth hates what he is himself!!1

Edit: Also, I don't like frigid girls who just lay there like a board waiting for it to be over. At least cry or something-wait, wrong doujin to reference ...

Ryllharu

Mon, 12-11-2023, 06:41 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they get all the want to Ende, and then the series jump cuts to the party returning to the middle lands with two additional small children of Fern and Stark's.

David75

Tue, 12-12-2023, 01:03 AM

The spell idea is a good one.
Frieren would totally understand a spell to make you feel extremely good that needs two bodies performing a strange ritual.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 12-12-2023, 02:26 AM

Perv.....

David75

Tue, 12-12-2023, 06:20 AM

Thank you for the compliment :o

shinta|hikari

Tue, 12-12-2023, 10:56 AM

Pardon the French.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 12-15-2023, 07:59 PM

Episode 15

------------------

What an excuse just to ship Fern x Stark harder. I love it.

And the fights with the flying bird monster and this episode both suggest that Frieren's pretty damn quick herself, even if Fern's supposed to be quicker.

How Frieren has no concept of money despite travelling by herself for 50 years and needs things explained to her in meals is both hilarious and bizarre.

Kraco

Sat, 12-16-2023, 04:30 AM

Yeah, the dance scene between Fern and Stark was really nice. It actually looked like Fern was enjoying it, which is quite rare. Normally she doesn't show it even if she finds something pleasant.

I reckon Frieren doesn't simply care about money or any other thing that are not important anymore in her long life. She only cares about the odd spells and those she considers her friends, and the memories of her past friends (which is why she sometimes wishes to do things Himmel talked about). Otherwise she appears to be happy living from hand to mouth, never bothering to think about it. It's not like she wouldn't have the means to make enough money to keep travelling or living in random places, as we have seen. So, now that she has Fern to look after her, Frieren prefers to let others worry about it, so that she can dedicate her whole time in the things that matter to her. She's quite selfish, but I suppose a millennium of life does that to a person.

David75

Sat, 12-16-2023, 05:42 AM

Other than the Fern/Stark relationship, we're reminded that life can end very easily, even for a long living elf, however powerful she is.

It was not stated but my guess is she decided to recruit that guy because she knew they would someday encounter such a monster.
After all she knew its type at first glance and acted instinctively.
Story wise, it was to show that guy's selling points.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 12-16-2023, 07:01 AM

I reckon Frieren doesn't simply care about money or any other thing that are not important anymore in her long life. She only cares about the odd spells and those she considers her friends, and the memories of her past friends (which is why she sometimes wishes to do things Himmel talked about). Otherwise she appears to be happy living from hand to mouth, never bothering to think about it. It's not like she wouldn't have the means to make enough money to keep travelling or living in random places, as we have seen.Or maybe she's just been living off the treasure she gained while questing with Himmel all this time and is only now running out. Adventurers that go on epic quests usually end up with a bunch of gold afterwards. :p

Story wise, it was to show that guy's selling points.I'm assuming Priests are still healers in this setting. Which should be it's own selling point.

David75

Sat, 12-16-2023, 07:20 AM

It was clearly explained: holy magic/spells/grimoire and he's a genius at that too. Like Fern, Stark and Frieren herself. Monsters of their own kind.

Ryllharu

Sat, 12-16-2023, 01:58 PM

How Frieren has no concept of money despite travelling by herself for 50 years and needs things explained to her in meals is both hilarious and bizarre.
Like the mage certifications earlier, Frieren has lived long enough to see currency change dozens of times. She knows what it is, just has no concept of how much means what unless someone is asking her to pay for something she's buying.

That's why she relies on bartering goods she forages, and doing odd jobs for people (who then pay her in present value items and coins).

Frieren's sense of payment/reward for the work or quests she does gets explained eventually. I forget where.

Explaining it in meals is actually the concept of the Consumer Price Index. It's actually a great way to measure value.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 12-16-2023, 08:01 PM

The bizzare part is that she's been travelling and engaging in society for the past 50 years but still doesn't quite get some stuff - not that she needs things explained in meals.

It makes sense that she wouldn't remember currency from Flamme's time, but we're lead to believe that she's been secretly training for 1000 years before Himmel went on a journey with her for 10 years. Then she went around the world collecting spells before coming back for another run.

She remembers geographic locations, and which family ran which town, as well as suits of armour that she had once allied with. It actually makes more sense for Frieren to remember currency than not. It doesn't change that quickly.

I feel the same way about the Mimic gag. It's funny and quirky, but realistically Frieren should be handling them fine. After your first Mimic, everyone knows to attack the chest before you open them.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 12-16-2023, 09:56 PM

I feel the same way about the Mimic gag. It's funny and quirky, but realistically Frieren should be handling them fine. After your first Mimic, everyone knows to attack the chest before you open them.If the game is smart, attacking the chest can ruin the treasure inside.

MFauli

Sun, 12-17-2023, 01:02 AM

DarthEnderX

Sun, 12-17-2023, 01:25 AM

About the monster: I'm actually upset that Frieren would fall victim to such dumb monster. What is that anyway, why does it exist and why do people not have widespread countermeasures?Lol, like what? What's the countermeasure to "if this thing is in the region, everyone falls asleep and dies?

They were lucky a priest came along.

Ryllharu

Sun, 12-17-2023, 06:11 AM

Kinda sad that the lord didn't tell Stark "if you ever feel tired from adventuring, feel free to come here and stay as long as you want" and Stark then replying with a gentle smile "I will". Would have made it nicer imo. Guy was so sad he lost his son, and after a dumb argument, too. And Stark could have needed it, too. I guess the strong similarity to the dead son actually made it worse for that to happen. Had Stark only looked KINDA similar, they could have built a stronger relationship, but resembling the son that closely added some awkwardness.
The deal here was that Stark and Lord Orden both immediately recognized that Stark couldn't replace his older son, and Lord Orden would never be a replacement father-figure for Stark. They both tolerated the motions for mutual gain, but this story is really good because there was immediate mutual understanding that there are no redos/replacements when it comes to blood family (as opposed to "found families").

Stark tried to give advice to Lord Orden for being stern with his remaining son because of the way Stark's father treated him, and Lord Orden corrected him by saying that he was only being stern because his son got a little bit overconfident when he had been praising him weeks prior. Lord Orden made the offer to stay, but he also saw how close Stark is to Fern, he knew that he couldn't take away that companionship from Stark to be the new double for his lost son.

They were both seeing their own lost family members in each other, but they both knew it the whole time. It is a refreshing change to that type of grief trope in fiction.

About the monster: I'm actually upset that Frieren would fall victim to such dumb monster. What is that anyway, why does it exist and why do people not have widespread countermeasures? That thing only needs to move between cities and in no time the world is depopulated, lol.The chaos flower is a common enough monster with known capabilities. The problem is that its known capability is that it 'merges with other local flora to become a subspecies'. This one randomized into a sleep curse inducing, magic reflecting super terror. Worst possible outcome from a randomizer, basically.

The presumption is that other chaos flower subspecies are substantially easier to deal with by either mages or warriors or the average battle-priest.

Frieren not being an "onee-san" was lol, too. At this point it's abundantly clear that he's talking about big boobs, lol. That's the joke. Frieren doesn't get it and is "Pretty Sure :3" that she more than qualifies.

MFauli

Fri, 12-22-2023, 02:49 PM

Episode 16:

Do they even know what a gorilla is?

DarthEnderX

Fri, 12-22-2023, 09:08 PM

I guess they'd have to.

This episode is evidence of why statues should have inscriptions.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 12-24-2023, 11:53 AM

Fern accepted Stark's hand!

Kraco

Fri, 12-29-2023, 12:51 PM

Fern accepted Stark's hand!

She most certainly has her maidenly side, even if it's well hidden most of the time. Despite keeping it hidden, if it's ignored, especially by Stark, she still gets annoyed. That's the kind of impression I've got. A somewhat difficult personality.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 12-29-2023, 02:48 PM

Fern is a weirdo tsundere pervert. Remember when she immediately stared at Stark's junk using the X-Ray vision spell? When she thought Stark was planning to molest the sleeping Freiren and stopped him from carrying her? When she poured clothing dissolving potion on Freiren instead of disposing it for no apparent reason?

Fern is a sexual deviant that pretends to be an ice princess.

Fuck Fern.

MFauli

Fri, 12-29-2023, 10:23 PM

Fuck Fern.

YES PLEASE

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-05-2024, 11:57 AM

Episode 17

--------------------

I was kind of expecting Sein to stay with them in that he thought he'd become a hero in his own way as he caught up to Gorilla.

Excited for a magic exam next week.

Kraco

Fri, 01-05-2024, 05:28 PM

I was kind of expecting Sein to stay with them in that he thought he'd become a hero in his own way as he caught up to Gorilla.

That would not really be fitting for his jaded personality. This whole trip, for him, should be more about avoiding regret and looking for his friend. Actually wanting to be a hero or anything like that would be out of scope. I did like his "just get married already" meme outburst, though.

MFauli

Sat, 01-06-2024, 02:59 AM

All I want to say after this episode is what Sein said: GET TO DATING ALREADY!!!1

Fully expected Stark to hold Fern's hand at some point, sigh.

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-06-2024, 05:28 PM

I like that they hit on Fern and Frieren's overall interactions again here.

Frieren operates as a mother-sister-daughter at varying and cyclical times to Fern, and with as competent as Fern is, it is easy to forget that she is still an older teen budding into full adulthood.

Frieren probably always sees people in the light she met them in. She always thinks of Himmel in his prime (which is why she was shocked he got so old), Fern always a little girl. That old dwarf is always an old dwarf in love with his wife, so she took forever to notice that he has Dwarfheimer's.

Stark is lucky that she met him when she did.

I'm pretty sure she treats Sein as a kid because she thinks it is funny. On the other hand, he's middle aged, but still acts with youthful enthusiasm. That's why he has to go find Gorilla. They need to finally have their adventure together.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 01-07-2024, 01:19 AM

That old dwarf is always an old dwarf in love with his wife, so she took forever to notice that he has Dwarfheimer's.In her defense, faking Dwarfheimer's was apparently his schtick. Which would make it a lot harder to notice that he'd developed it for real.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-12-2024, 11:53 AM

Episode 18

-----------------

That was tense and enjoyable. Enjoyable because it's the battle arc. Tense because I get worried about Fern being paired with a killer.

And Fern used snacks. It was supereffective.

I thought one group might have been shrewd enough to take the bird from the examiner. Also weird how a bird that can blast through ice didn't try that while being in a cage, but I'll just assume that it's a special cage. Team 2 is somehow going to use the barrier to corner the bird.

I like all the little things in this show. Like telling us Fern has big boobs and that still annoys Frieren. That Fern's actually known now for her skills amongst mages who care, and Frieren testing Lawine's insight by seeing if she can recognise danger/strength.

Ryllharu

Fri, 01-12-2024, 04:32 PM

But Fern noticeably underestimates herself.

She doesn't think she's a very accomplished mage, but Frieren does nothing but say encouraging words to her. Fern is very well recognized by the whole "magic society" but probably has no idea herself because she doesn't mingle in those spaces.

We see that most mages grind up through ninth certification to third or so in formal, structured education or in specific jobs. Fern just immediately took Third Rank because it was convenient and passed entirely without issue. She just doesn't recognize that as an accomplishment.

I assume the main reason is that Fern is apprenticed to the greatest mage currently living, and probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest mage to have ever lived, inevitably comparing herself to someone who can't be caught in a human lifetime. Even then, Frieren immediately pointed out that she's lost to quite a number of mages weaker than her.

Fern needs confidence in herself. She hasn't developed it because she's thriving in extremely deadly scenarios on their journey so far.

This is good subtle retroactive worldbuilding.

MFauli

Fri, 01-12-2024, 05:45 PM

I don't get it. There's 50 competitive mages inside that relatively small area around the lake, and they don't stumble over each other? Eh.

Also I wonder if the sorceress called ÜBEL might be evil /s.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-12-2024, 08:11 PM

Not being German, I didn't pick that up until you mentioned it.

That said, I liked other small things too - like Ubel's eye movement showing she baited the bandits to approach her so she could kill them, and Frieren only mentioning Stark calling her an old hag because his comment made Fern apologise, and Frieren felt bad about that.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-19-2024, 11:39 AM

Episode 19

-------------------------

Fern just deadpan going "You have no fucking clue".

This week is going to feel so long :(.

I do feel that it's weird how in a battlefield full of fighting mages - that one single binding spell would be detected amongst all others. That was the only real part that felt wrong.

MFauli

Fri, 01-19-2024, 01:40 PM

Wtf is happening. This anime has been so boring until last week and now we're suddenly in an epic death match free4all between the most powerful mages.

I don't like how killing each other is allowed and those 3 killed by bird monsters didn't matter to Denken and his group.

Wonder if the greenhaired evil girl and Wirbel, the silverhaird guy, who are fighting each other will both survive. Their designs are well made, you'd think the survive, but since it's a deadly battle between mages who enjoy killing, I'm not so sure.

Love how Fern is using "old" magic only, it's like "yo, kids, you and your fancy modern spells are real cute. Now let's end this, ok".

DarthEnderX

Fri, 01-19-2024, 03:54 PM

It's also weird that they didn't actually show how Fern's team caught their bird. Given how hard it is to do.

I really like the old man. He's smart and crafty. It's just a shame that he has absolutely no chance.

Ryllharu

Fri, 01-19-2024, 04:31 PM

This week is going to feel so long :(.

Marathoning this whole arc, or portions of this arc would be preferable. :/

I really like the old man. He's smart and crafty. It's just a shame that he has absolutely no chance.
I think the scenes with Fern fighting her mage, as well as Denken's assessment of the parties thawing the lake, the dead party, and his comments to his own party prove otherwise.

He's "weak," but he has experience, patience, and he's cautious above all. All the same principles that Flamme taught Frieren.

Frieren commented that she's been defeated several times by mages weaker than her. Denken is exactly the type of mage she was talking about.

Fern backs away too. She doesn't need to be flashy or powerful. She only has to win. Whether that is a decisive quick kill or outlasting, it doesn't matter. Her opponent is undoubtedly sensing the "wrongness" that Frieren and Fern use to fight demons. Denken used the same cautious approach to immediately trap Frieren's party.

The other party fighting Fern's is talking up their battle-experienced guy like he's the only one who has fought demons. They have no idea that Fern and Frieren are both practiced mageslayers because that's what all demons are. But I suppose the secret is the same. All three fight "unconventionally" for the modern era.

I don't like how killing each other is allowed and those 3 killed by bird monsters didn't matter to Denken and his group.
Wrong takeaway. Denken was disgusted. "Damn their outdated ideas," referring to the exam proctors. But he also knew he couldn't do anything about it. They were long dead past any kind of magical aid (remember that Frieren also knows simple healing magic. As long as a mage has a bible they can still do it to some degree.) and there was no point falling prey to the monsters themselves. Frieren used an exceeding powerful melee-range ancient folk magic spell on the monsters, it turned out.

MFauli

Fri, 01-19-2024, 04:52 PM

Ok, Ryll, but I was talking about the killing in general, not just the monster birds.

Ryllharu

Fri, 01-19-2024, 07:16 PM

Ok, Ryll, but I was talking about the killing in general, not just the monster birds.

So was Denken. That's my point.

The exam proctors encourage this because they think a superior first class mage won't die from any of the lethal potential while the rest get weeded out.

Denken rejects this notion completely in all its forms. Rewatch his little speech.

Others think a First Class Mage is about having power. Denken believes it is about being a representative of magical power.

MFauli

Fri, 01-19-2024, 08:07 PM

So was Denken. That's my point.

The exam proctors encourage this because they think a superior first class mage won't die from any of the lethal potential while the rest get weeded out.

Denken rejects this notion completely in all its forms. Rewatch his little speech.

Others think a First Class Mage is about having power. Denken believes it is about being a representative of magical power.

Ok, again, that is my issue. And I don't just mean the "weeding out by monsters". The organizers also seem to be fine with mages killing each other. I don't like that. Paints the whole mage guild in a pretty bad light.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-19-2024, 10:46 PM

I don't like how killing each other is allowed and those 3 killed by bird monsters didn't matter to Denken and his group

Yes to organisers are okay with killing.
No, it did matter to Denken.

As for Ferns capture, I assumed they got her because Fern is also a master of mana suppression. She's better than Frieren at that so she might not even produce mana when she moves, allowing her to place the bird in the cage.

We saw the examiner drinking tea in one of the shots and the bird just sits in the table, so they are approachable in a sense.

David75

Sat, 01-20-2024, 07:55 AM

DarthEnderX

Sat, 01-20-2024, 10:17 AM

My guess is 1st class mages are the regional/country last line of defence. They need to be able to survive or they would die quickly in a war/invasion or any kind of threat like demons for example.Still seems like a massive waste that could easily kill off a lot of your 2nd best mages, which would leave you weaker against those threats. Especially since those mages will now never grow to become 1st Class mages.

You can develop tests that prevent weaker mages from becoming 1st Class without killing them off.

Crap like this is probably why there were "a lot more mages in the past" as Frieren said. It's clearly a system designed around enhancing the prestige of few mages, rather than prioritizing the safety of human civilization.

MFauli

Sat, 01-20-2024, 10:32 AM

Still seems like a massive waste that could easily kill off a lot of your 2nd best mages, which would leave you weaker against those threats. Especially since those mages will now never grow to become 1st Class mages.

You can develop tests that prevent weaker mages from becoming 1st Class without killing them off.

Crap like this is probably why there were "a lot more mages in the past" as Frieren said. It's clearly a system designed around enhancing the prestige of few mages, rather than prioritizing the safety of human civilization.

Exactly right.

Sat, 01-20-2024, 10:33 AM

It's (at least in part) a story about how elite institutions become insular and decrepit over time.

Also the direction in this episode was weird, it just stops basically mid-scene at the end.

Kraco

Sat, 01-20-2024, 02:00 PM

I reckon that since the demon king was defeated, things became more relaxed for human countries and institutions. We have seen things can still be pretty bad, but probably generally speaking the human countries don't anymore feel like it's the end of the world. That allows entities like the mages guild to worship their own prestige like this, instead of dedicating every single bit of strength in defending against the demon invasion. It's exceptionally wasteful since powerful mages would still be very much needed to fight the demons, but if the mages guild leadership is really callous, they might even prefer it this way: Mages are much more valuable for the society when there are less of them and consequently the demons manage to destroy villages or even towns occasionally, creating panic. Kind of like artificially limiting the supply of medicine when a deadly disease is slowly spreading among the population; the price of the medicine will skyrocket and the ones controlling the supply of the medicine will accumulate wealth beyond measure.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-26-2024, 12:18 PM

Episode 20

----------------------

Consecutive normal punches

MFauli

Fri, 01-26-2024, 08:23 PM

wtf, did I timetravel? episode went by so fast, fuck.

Kraco

Sun, 01-28-2024, 10:03 AM

It's one thing to let go someone who tried to rob the bird but failed, compared to letting go someone who succeeded at robbing it but still came back to cause more trouble, even threatening to kill people. Frieren is such a good person she only kills demons/monsters, but that group would deserve to have someone die. They should have just made themselves scarce after managing to snatch the bird. That one scumbag even repeatedly talks about killing the kids. Of all the mages so far, Richter is the most derserving of death.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 01-28-2024, 10:52 AM

compared to letting go someone who succeeded at robbing it but still came back to cause more troubleI mean, it makes sense for them to do that. He knows if they don't keep Frieren busy, she's just going to hunt down the girl with the bird and take it back. It's not like he's doing it for funsies.

MFauli

Sun, 01-28-2024, 10:55 AM

Kraco

Sun, 01-28-2024, 11:17 AM

I mean, it makes sense for them to do that. He knows if they don't keep Frieren busy, she's just going to hunt down the girl with the bird and take it back. It's not like he's doing it for funsies.

It's not like this test would be an isolated universe. If someones dies there, they stay dead. If you make an enemy during the test, you have likely made an enemy for life, also outside of the test. Mages strong enough to attempt to become first rank mages are the worst kind of enemies one could make. Possibly worse than demons, as the demons don't operate following the same sort of emotions as humans do. Frieren is an elf, so maybe she wouldn't be as bad an enemy.

That's why I'd probably prefer to catch a wild bird, not a bird someone else already caught.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-28-2024, 01:16 PM

The funny thing is maybe if they just talked with Freiren about random things to stall her, their plan would've worked. She is so time blind that the test will be over before she realizes it.

Adding killing into the equation and starting the violence themselves was the worst possible play against Slayer/Reaper Freiren (title drop intended).

I actually think these mages heard stories of her and thought she was a support mage for the hero...

DarthEnderX

Sun, 01-28-2024, 01:52 PM

That's why I'd probably prefer to catch a wild bird, not a bird someone else already caught.Obviously. But, as they explained, finding a bird is mostly a matter of luck. The test was designed for some teams to get lucky, and then they would fight over the birds.

Kraco

Mon, 01-29-2024, 04:42 AM

Obviously. But, as they explained, finding a bird is mostly a matter of luck. The test was designed for some teams to get lucky, and then they would fight over the birds.

A test designed to do the demons' work for the demons: make the most promising magical talents among humans to fight possibly all the way to the death with each other, leaving grudges behind. The founder/boss of the magic association, an elf with the most comprehensive knowledge of all spells ever invented... Where exactly was Serie when the demon king needed to be defeated? It was Frieren who was helping the hero.

No wonder Frieren looks down on the magic association of this era.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 01-29-2024, 08:39 AM

A test designed to do the demons' work for the demons: make the most promising magical talents among humans to fight possibly all the way to the death with each other, leaving grudges behind.That's literally every exam in anime. But yes, it's dumb.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-29-2024, 09:45 AM

I don't think Souma killed any of his fellow aspiring chefs, only stripped them.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 01-29-2024, 03:26 PM

I don't think Souma killed any of his fellow aspiring chefs, only stripped them.They died later from exposure.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-02-2024, 11:55 AM

E21

------------------

Cool episode with flashbacks. I gather the Holy Emblem is something bestowed upon by Serie. Flamme probably brought Frieren to Serie to be recognised as "a true mage".

It makes sense that Fern is not to use complex spells during battle since speed is entirely her thing. That said, Frieren isn't exactly slow. Between this fight and the sleeping-plant fight, she's pretty bloody quick. Now whether that's mostly decision-making vs spell activation is a different matter - but the end result is that she's quick.

I laughed out loud at Frieren letting Denken soak. I kinda expected her to cast a barrier but nope, just gtfo xD.

Denken going a fistfight was a good detail. He sees magic as a tool, not his entire identity. The mindset seemed to be that most mages wanted "their spell" kind of like how the demons did. I suppose Zoltraak technically is one such spell - it's just commonly known. (Anti-demon variant aside)

DarthEnderX

Fri, 02-02-2024, 02:36 PM

The mindset seemed to be that most mages wanted "their spell" kind of like how the demons did.Everyone wants to be the anime "I'm the earth/water/ice/spikes/clone" mage.

MFauli

Fri, 02-02-2024, 04:27 PM

The water-girl getting a default-victory just because there's rain was stupid. If it was that easy ... and then why didn't the guy win, when he can literally manipulate the earth that's everywhere?

Was also stupid how Denken and the guy literally claimed to have ZERO mana left. Come on, you never looked like you were that exhausted, there should be enough mana left to overpower that loser group at the end.

I'm liking this anime now quite some, but what overall ruins it for me is everyone's lack of emotion. It's like everyone is suffering from depression combined with Bleach-syndrome (making a cool/smug facial expression until you lose).

Bummer Fern didn't use the see-through-spell on her team mate ;>

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-02-2024, 09:10 PM

They have zero mana left because every ounce of it went into the shield that broke. Attacks land either because you didn't put the shield up in time, or the attack vs your shield zaps your MP and the shield breaks when you hit zero.

Apparently Fern's attack was impressive in part because normal offensive magic is viewed as an inefficient way to break shields.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-03-2024, 06:22 AM

The water-girl getting a default-victory just because there's rain was stupid. If it was that easy ... and then why didn't the guy win, when he can literally manipulate the earth that's everywhere?

Rule of cool. In the rain, water and lightning mages never lose. They'll always lose in deserts.

There is a limited amount of earth that can be moved in an area, what you can see and what is close. Do not underestimate the tremendous volumes of water that are coming down in the rain. It is distributed.

1 square km in even a light rainstorm (higher end of "light rain" like they were getting) gets 4 million liters of rain total in an hour.

Gathering that giant ball of water in minutes is easy.

They have zero mana left because every ounce of it went into the shield that broke. Attacks land either because you didn't put the shield up in time, or the attack vs your shield zaps your MP and the shield breaks when you hit zero.
Yep.

That's why Fern and Frieren fight the way they do. "You only need basic (zoltraak) spells." The barrier is very strong, but it also is very mana hungry, and as Richter pointed out, its activation time matters a lot, so it isn't perfect, but does the job.

The "old school" way of fighting is exhausting your opponents mana to mages. In its true purpose, killing demons, it is about being extremely fast and efficient and hiding your own mana pool capacity. Demons will always have a greater mana pool than humans.

Zoltraak is very efficient because it isn't particularly flashy. Saturation of attacks swiftly overwhelms your opponent. Experienced mages use pinpoint barriers. Novices use bigger spheres.

Modern mages are coming up with innovative ways to defeat each other, but they're missing the point.

And Flamme is wrong. Frieren isn't a peacetime mage. She's the last true wartime mage (though realistically, she spans all time periods). Someone like Denken is a proper peacetime mage. Same attitude Frieren has, and his goal is very simple.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-03-2024, 11:50 AM

What Flamme meant was that Freiren would actually try to defeat the demon king because she is not obsessed with power and conflict the way Flamme and Serie are. Freiren actually did defeat the demon lord with the hero party, while Flamme and Serie could have with their abilities but never bothered because they actually like war, or at least the hostile conditions it entails.

The journey to defeat the demon king took 10 years, so it is no small undertaking even for Serie, particularly because it is dangerous and hard work.

As for the water vs earth thing, I just think that the water mage (with her partner) was simply better than the earth mage, and she was only always limited by not having lots of water around because she cannot generate it. When she had the water and a distraction, Girl team won.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-03-2024, 01:21 PM

I learned that Serie's VA voices Killua. Now I can't unhear it.

MFauli

Sat, 02-03-2024, 02:56 PM

I wonder how strong the demon king was, because so far all demons were total pushovers, even the high-up group we met.

As for the water-earth fight, I just find it silly how the earth guy kept acting superior, but none of his attacks ever connected their target. Although that is a problem with stories in general: A supposedly stronger opponent attacking, but never hitting, ultimately making the "weaker" fighter just as capable, because if you cannot land your attacks, you're not strong actually.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-03-2024, 04:44 PM

Was he really that strong? He was just full of bluster and also outnumbered 2 to 1. If he really were strong, he'd know they were fucked when Freiren showed up. Serie took one look at Freiren and knew she was strong as a child.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-03-2024, 07:56 PM

I wonder how strong the demon king was, because so far all demons were total pushovers, even the high-up group we met.
The demons are not pushovers at all. No idea where your revisionist history makes that shit up. Frieren is astonishingly powerful. Fern is one of the strongest mages in the exam right behind Frieren because both of whom taught her magic. Our frame of reference concerns the two strongest mages to have ever lived and the apprentice to the one still living.

Aura was only defeatable by Frieren, who spent 80 years prepping to deceive Aura. Literally no one else would ever have been able to defeat her, because Aura would have run or used her zombie army to defeat anyone she couldn't command with her scales.

Qual is someone Frieren sealed away because she couldn't beat him either. He was extremely intelligent at combat magic and again, according to Frieren, would have worked out a new countermeasure in minutes if the duo hadn't one-shotted him when they released his seal. The side effect was that Frieren spent 50 years seeding humanity with the means to kill demons more effectively by stealing and refining Qual's techniques.

Draht (garrote guy) was someone who could have easily killed Fern or Stark. Frieren first showed off why she deceives demons to make them drop their guard. Frieren won because she has 500 years of experience (before her break) and never lets her guard down near demons.

The unnamed demon that Frieren defeated when Flamme found her slaughtered her entire village and was only challenged by an exceptionally strong mage in Frieren.

Putting numerous other examples aside. Demonkind has been mentioned to have a strict hierarchy and they do NOT hide their mana from each other. The Demon Lord was literally stronger than any other demon in existence, or he wouldn't have been the demon lord. Plain and simple.

As for the water-earth fight, I just find it silly how the earth guy kept acting superior, but none of his attacks ever connected their target. Although that is a problem with stories in general: A supposedly stronger opponent attacking, but never hitting, ultimately making the "weaker" fighter just as capable, because if you cannot land your attacks, you're not strong actually.Richter's magic, by necessity, is literally and figuratively telegraphed every attack, except for the one time he got serious and sent a spike from underneath their barrier, which hurt them both pretty bad.

In contrast, Lawine's ice attacks just happen from wet ground, or bursts. Very easy to catch opponents unaware if the conditions are right. She only telegraphs the ice needles. Kanne is similar when she has water. It just appears.

Fern's zoltraaks aren't telegraphed. Frieren's aren't either. That's exactly why they work the way they do. Ubel is the same way, her slices appear out of nowhere, which makes her attacks so unnerving and demon-esque.

MFauli

Sat, 02-03-2024, 10:06 PM

Yeah, I don't buy that a several centuries old Frieren grew from barely defeating the demon king 80 years ago to obliterating him in just that time. What did she do all those previous centuries?

Although maybe it's just an issue with everyone's emotionless reactions that it feels like the demons are pushovers. A bit more shouting and sweating and nervous looking would help a lot making the demons appear more powerful.

Sat, 02-03-2024, 11:28 PM

The demons we've met are pushovers so far because we're meeting them in ascending threat order so the stakes of the story go up.

Also, presumably, many of the top demons in the world died during the events of the last few centuries.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 02-03-2024, 11:52 PM

barely defeating the demon kingWhat are you basing that on? I don't remember the show describing that battle.

Sun, 02-04-2024, 12:43 AM

The only comment in the show is Eisen offhandedly saying they "went through a lot" at the castle of the demon king.

MFauli

Sun, 02-04-2024, 06:46 AM

What are you basing that on? I don't remember the show describing that battle.

Assuming that the threat to the world was not a pushover. You're right, that's a strong assumption going by how easily Frieren defeated everyone so far.

Kraco

Sun, 02-04-2024, 12:34 PM

It was pretty decent writing that Richter didn't, after all, really want to kill the two girls. He wasted a whole lot of energy to simply pummel them around as long as there existed the possibility that Frieren could be contained. Only after that he actually went for the permanent solution. However, in the previous episode he indicated he would try to kill one of them immediately. So, that was just a bluff, meant to demoralise the girls and possibly encourage Frieren to be hasty and make a careless mistake in her own fight, in order to hurry to save the girls.

Assuming that the threat to the world was not a pushover. You're right, that's a strong assumption going by how easily Frieren defeated everyone so far.

Saying the demons are pushovers because Frieren could defeat them is like saying olympics silver and bronze medal winners are pushovers because the gold medal winner did beat them. Frieren might be the most powerful mortal in that world right at that moment. Serie isn't powerful because she's a hikikomori who never leaves her room. Her power is purely theoretical, whereas Frieren has used all of her wits to come up with ways to slay demons and she's actually doing it as well.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-05-2024, 01:36 AM

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-05-2024, 02:28 AM

Earth moves do have an problem where if you go beyond a certain size, you're just making an elevator. He doesn't seem to throw the rocks.

That said, he was using an earth dome/shield against ice projectiles before. I actually thought that was a pretty smart move given how barriers are supposed to be relatively ineffective against physical attacks. In that case he should have used that against the water spirit bomb instead of the usual barrier - time permitting.

Another inconsistency I've seen so far is that in some fights, a barrier blocking an attack can deplete your mana completely (like if you blocked an attack that was too strong in Dark Souls, it'd break your stamina). However, when one of the rock pillars struck water girl from the ground, it broke her shield then damaged her - but that strike didn't automatically drain all of her MP compared to say Denken's fight and Richter's final shield. That would suggest that you can break through a barrier without exhausting someone's MP. One explanation for this is that you are both limited by both mana capacity and mana output - and water girl maxed her mana output into the shield, but not her capacity. Frieren states in episode 2 that long range spells are affected by mana, strength of firing and control. I'm guessing shields may also apply similarly - and Denken/Richter's output is high/instant enough that their shields are limited by their mana capacity instead of rate-of-discharge.

To be entirely honest though, analytics aside I don't think these battles were designed to follow strict mechanics.

Ryllharu

Mon, 02-05-2024, 06:19 PM

Another inconsistency I've seen so far is that in some fights, a barrier blocking an attack can deplete your mana completely (like if you blocked an attack that was too strong in Dark Souls, it'd break your stamina). However, when one of the rock pillars struck water girl from the ground, it broke her shield then damaged her - but that strike didn't automatically drain all of her MP compared to say Denken's fight and Richter's final shield. That would suggest that you can break through a barrier without exhausting someone's MP. One explanation for this is that you are both limited by both mana capacity and mana output - and water girl maxed her mana output into the shield, but not her capacity. Frieren states in episode 2 that long range spells are affected by mana, strength of firing and control. I'm guessing shields may also apply similarly - and Denken/Richter's output is high/instant enough that their shields are limited by their mana capacity instead of rate-of-discharge.

I thought Richter detailed this one out completely. It's why "modern" magic is shifting away from Zoltraak.

The barrier spell is perfect for defending against Zoltraak. That's what it was for, that's why it was invented. It flawlessly defends against Zoltraak so it hasn't been changed, improved or updated since.

"Modern" magic shifted to attacks that are just as fast as activating Zoltraak, but the Barrier spell can't defend against it unless it is improved (which he showed by fractalizing the facets of the Barrier), but that takes longer to cast and requires even more mana, so it effectively does nothing against the elemental magic. The mages saturate each other with strong attacks that blast through the standard barrier with physical force behind them.

Why that school of thought doesn't work on Fern or Frieren is because the former has flawless pinpoint control, minimizes the size of her barriers and therefore never uses too much mana on her barriers; the latter has an overwhelming mana pool and can just buff up the barrier when she really needs it.

Fern was getting affected by the rocks. But she uses what she needs, which is just enough, and then switches to pure saturation while maintaining peak efficiency. Frieren taught Fern that Offense is above all. Other mages simply can't keep up with Fern's casting speed.

Frieren just can't be overwhelmed because she has an inexhaustible supply of mana compared to essentially anyone attacking her.

Both of them hide it (the anti-demon strat), so anyone who can sense mana will always be caught off guard and lose.

"Modern" mages are unknowingly following in the footsteps of demonkind, so of course Fern and Frieren's ego-less style is going to defeat them every time.

edit:
The one closest to their fighting style is probably Ubel. She appears to just cut stuff with absolutely no startup, telegraphed movement, or any indication of any kind besides presumably mana that needs to be actively detected.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-05-2024, 07:29 PM

I thought Richter detailed this one out completely. It's why "modern" magic is shifting away from Zoltraak.

The barrier spell is perfect for defending against Zoltraak. That's what it was for, that's why it was invented. It flawlessly defends against Zoltraak so it hasn't been changed, improved or updated since.

"Modern" magic shifted to attacks that are just as fast as activating Zoltraak, but the Barrier spell can't defend against it unless it is improved (which he showed by fractalizing the facets of the Barrier), but that takes longer to cast and requires even more mana, so it effectively does nothing against the elemental magic. The mages saturate each other with strong attacks that blast through the standard barrier with physical force behind them.

Why that school of thought doesn't work on Fern or Frieren is because the former has flawless pinpoint control, minimizes the size of her barriers and therefore never uses too much mana on her barriers; the latter has an overwhelming mana pool and can just buff up the barrier when she really needs it.

Fern was getting affected by the rocks. But she uses what she needs, which is just enough, and then switches to pure saturation while maintaining peak efficiency. Frieren taught Fern that Offense is above all. Other mages simply can't keep up with Fern's casting speed.

Frieren just can't be overwhelmed because she has an inexhaustible supply of mana compared to essentially anyone attacking her.

Both of them hide it (the anti-demon strat), so anyone who can sense mana will always be caught off guard and lose.

"Modern" mages are unknowingly following in the footsteps of demonkind, so of course Fern and Frieren's ego-less style is going to defeat them every time.

edit:
The one closest to their fighting style is probably Ubel. She appears to just cut stuff with absolutely no startup, telegraphed movement, or any indication of any kind besides presumably mana that needs to be actively detected.

This doesn't address what I'm talking about, which is whether a shield will break only after depleting your mana, or whether it can break without depleting your mana. It seems like the answer is that it can be either, depending on whether your limiting factor is your capacity or your output.

Ryllharu

Mon, 02-05-2024, 07:36 PM

I thought I did in the first three paragraphs, but I guess it wasn't clear enough: It depends on the attack.

Zoltraak? Mana depletion wins the encounter. The Barrier will not break, you just won't be able to produce them anymore and one will slip through.

"Modern" magical technique attacks that hit physically? Strong enough, and they will break the Barrier unless it has been reinforced, which slows down the activation time of the Barrier.

Kraco

Tue, 02-06-2024, 04:27 AM

Zoltraak? Mana depletion wins the encounter. The Barrier will not break, you just won't be able to produce them anymore and one will slip through.

I still think Bill's point is interesting. There could be an individual limit to how much energy, how many watts, a magician can pump into their shield. This would also mean that the smaller the shield, the more energy it receives and thus the more powerful zoltraak it can withstand, since the total energy per second is not divided by many shield elements. However, if the zoltraak, or exceedingly rapidly repeated zoltraaks, is still more powerful (has more joules) than the defending magician can pump into the shield per second, no matter how vast the magician's remaining mana pool (how many kWh of mana they have left), it doesn't matter. The shield will break and the magician will take damage, despite having even plenty of mana remaining. Of course I'd assume mana control and other forms of training would widen the bandwidth through which a magician can pump mana into the shield.

Furthermore, I could also imagine the shield itself could have variation between magicians. One magician could perhaps store enough mana in the shield to block 10kJ attack, one could maintain a shield strong enough to block 20kJ. Frieren probably can block 100kJ... But if the magician tries to pump more than that into the shield, they might lose control. Not that it would necessarily be an issue since simply maintaining the shield eats energy, meaning mana from the shield is dissipating into the atmosphere continuously, so having too "thick" a shield would be a suicide, unless you expect the fight to last a single second.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 02-06-2024, 08:58 PM

Zoltraak? Mana depletion wins the encounter. The Barrier will not break, you just won't be able to produce them anymore and one will slip through.

"Modern" magical technique attacks that hit physically? Strong enough, and they will break the Barrier unless it has been reinforced, which slows down the activation time of the Barrier.

So, firstly let's talk about how you'd deplete a barrier between Zoltraak and shield.

If Frieren fires 100J of Zoltraak, presumably a defender's shield will drain 200J of mana from the defender since the spell's very nature makes it costly (per the inventer of Zoltraak whenever they covered it).

I think we agree so far that shields against Zoltraak seem to never break until the defender runs out of mana. Let's discuss the mechanism. Suppose Frieren's final attack against Denken at the end is a 1MJ Zoltraak (we've seen her fire some spectacularly big ones) - how does Denken use 2MJ of barrier to block this? Did he have to actively cast a 2MJ barrier beforehand (seems unlikely), or does he cast a barrier that automatically drains whatever is required?

If barriers can drain mana dynamically based on the strength of the attack, then why can't it do that against physical attacks? It seems like physical attacks disproportionally drains shield. Using the first scenario, a 200J mana shield might only be able to block a 1kg rock being hurled towards it. Hurling that rock would only cost 50J of energy - so spending 100J on rock hurling would do more shield damage than 100J on Zoltraak.

Now you mentioned that if a physical attack is strong enough that it'll physically break a barrier. How would that work? If shields dynamically drains capacity then physical attacks should just make defending even more inefficient, but should not break with mana left.

If shields do in fact break after a limit then there's no point blocking attacks after a point. If shields are only good at blocking attacks from monsters and warriors (per this episode), then never block a ball of water - be it Frieren or Richter - since that would imply an inherent damage cap to barrier magic.

This is all unless mage output is also taken into account. If Frieren and Denken (who has 1KJ of mana remaining) both can perform 1KW of magic each, an exchange of 500J to cast Zoltraak vs 1KJ of shield would be resolved instantly with Denken now having 0 mana.

If Richter puts in 1KJ of mana into smashing a pillar into Kanne, she'd require 4KJ of shields to block it. If her output is 4KW or more, she'd just deplete her capacity. If her output is less than that (eg 3KW), then the shield would break and she'd take physical damage (but be left with 1KJ of mana).

This would make sense mechanically, but the fact that we've never seen Zoltraak break someone's shield by saturating output alone without depleting mana seems to be oddly coincidental.

Tue, 02-06-2024, 11:58 PM

Qual's spells broke several shields Fern was generating without running her OOM. She also set up a double-layered barrier rather than reinforce the first one, and split the defensive spell up into numerous little pieces, some of which broke individually as Qual probed her with the normal attacks.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 02-07-2024, 12:30 AM

Geeks all of you.

Kraco

Wed, 02-07-2024, 05:11 AM

I reckon a physical attack makes the shield simply shatter without expending the expect amount of energy, per se. So, it just disturbs the structure of the shield. We know the shields are kind of flawed as they are, in a certain sense, since merely creating/maintaining them without deflecting attacks already eats energy. Perhaps the shields are structurally utterly incapable of dealing with a physical object interacting with them. At least a physical object any more solid than gas, unless it's the atmosphere that already makes them inefficient normally.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 02-07-2024, 10:50 AM

Geeks all of you.I know right?

Motherfuckahs out here with calculators trying to determine magic shield strengths.

Wed, 02-07-2024, 03:15 PM

To be clear I agree the magic system in Frieren functions however it needs to for the episode to finish.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 02-07-2024, 03:33 PM

I think it follows the rule of cool (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).

Even if there may be logic in the writing, it doesn't always get shown correctly in animation, many times intentionally for the cool factor.

MFauli

Wed, 02-07-2024, 03:54 PM

People in this thread thought more deeply about this anime than its creator.

Ryllharu

Wed, 02-07-2024, 06:03 PM

I think we agree so far that shields against Zoltraak seem to never break until the defender runs out of mana. Let's discuss the mechanism. Suppose Frieren's final attack against Denken at the end is a 1MJ Zoltraak (we've seen her fire some spectacularly big ones) - how does Denken use 2MJ of barrier to block this? Did he have to actively cast a 2MJ barrier beforehand (seems unlikely), or does he cast a barrier that automatically drains whatever is required?

If barriers can drain mana dynamically based on the strength of the attack, then why can't it do that against physical attacks? It seems like physical attacks disproportionally drains shield. Using the first scenario, a 200J mana shield might only be able to block a 1kg rock being hurled towards it. Hurling that rock would only cost 50J of energy - so spending 100J on rock hurling would do more shield damage than 100J on Zoltraak.

We actually don't agree. Somehow my posts keep getting reinterpreted despite how clear I think they are writing them.

The barrier designed to defend against Zoltraak NEVER breaks against Zoltraak. There's no merit in discussing joules or anything like that. The defender drains mana casting it, but it always works as long as their opponent is using Zoltraak. It is literally what the spell is DESIGNED to do. Doesn't matter how big the zoltraak beam is, aside from the defender maybe losing an arm because the beam splashed over. The barrier is the size it needs to be to stop the zoltraak beam, and it always works. The mana drain is the size of the barrier and how long it is held up, nothing more. Frieren explained all of this to Fern.

The barrier is not AS GOOD at defending against physical attacks, and it can get broken by them.

Why was Qual able to break them? Because Qual was a genius at killing magic. Frieren admitted to Fern that if the fight went on any longer, Qual would have reconfigured Zoltraak (in a similar manner that Frieren tweaked it to kill demons harder) to go right through the barrier spell she spent 80 years perfecting.

Y is right. The magic system works the way it needs to in order to support the narrative. It is constantly retroactively tweaked, along with all the lore of the series.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 02-07-2024, 09:11 PM

"Modern" magic shifted to attacks that are just as fast as activating Zoltraak, but the Barrier spell can't defend against it unless it is improved (which he showed by fractalizing the facets of the Barrier), but that takes longer to cast and requires even more mana, so it effectively does nothing against the elemental magic. The mages saturate each other with strong attacks that blast through the standard barrier with physical force behind them.

Why that school of thought doesn't work on Fern or Frieren is because the former has flawless pinpoint control, minimizes the size of her barriers and therefore never uses too much mana on her barriers; the latter has an overwhelming mana pool and can just buff up the barrier when she really needs it.

So if barriers don't actually use mana to block magic but simply cost mana to maintain duration and area, then weak physical attacks are simply pointless - such as the girl with flying rocks. If a physical attack's advantage is in circumventing barriers, then those that don't are just as (in)effective as Zoltraak. A barrage of rocks requires the same shield size/duration to block as much as similarly-sized Zoltraak attacks. I suppose lifting 100 rocks might be different from controlling 100 Zoltraaks though.

Fern also said it "feels like a cannon" when she blocked her rocks. If the shields only cost mana to maintain duration and area, it shouldn't "feel" like anything. It either blocks or doesn't, or feels draining to maintain because of a long duration or large area of effect.

The magic system works the way it needs to in order to support the narrative. It is constantly retroactively tweaked, along with all the lore of the series.

I've heard this a few times, and while it may be true - until the anime has gotten ahead enough for us to conclude that it does retcon old lore, I'll only be able to look forward with what we're shown thus far.

People in this thread thought more deeply about this anime than its creator.

From what I've been told so far (per above about rectonning etc), it may be true. So this discussion is about "based on what we've been shown, this is how the system would work if the information presented thus far is true and intentional". Anything that doesn't fit is either yet to be explained, or is a miss/sleight/oversight/disregard by the author for the sake of other aspects of the story.

Kraco

Thu, 02-08-2024, 04:10 AM

The barrier could be said to work perfectly against physical attacks as well, despite what Richter said, since it reduced the power of physical attacks enough to make them essentially harmless or avoidable. I mean, neither of the girls were missing limbs or even an eye after that fight. Not even bloody broken bones. Richter was totally out of mana after doing the work of a thousand bulldozers, yet didn't gain anything from all that effort. If a barrier stops any zoltraak 100% without ever shattering, that might have created utterly ridiculous expectations in the minds of the magicians. In reality it's okay for a barrier to shatter, as long as it has stopped or critically slowed down the attack. Which is exactly what happened, in fact, since the girls are okay. Just create another barrier for the next attack from the opponent. Especially since maintaining a barrier eats mana constantly, so if no attack has hit a particular barrier element, the magician will discontinue that element anyway, wasting the mana invested.

So, yeah, there's nothing wrong about the barrier at all, there's just something wrong about how the magicians view things. Once again, Frieren has got it right: stick to the basics.

Ryllharu

Thu, 02-08-2024, 06:20 PM

So if barriers don't actually use mana to block magic but simply cost mana to maintain duration and area, then weak physical attacks are simply pointless - such as the girl with flying rocks. If a physical attack's advantage is in circumventing barriers, then those that don't are just as (in)effective as Zoltraak. A barrage of rocks requires the same shield size/duration to block as much as similarly-sized Zoltraak attacks. I suppose lifting 100 rocks might be different from controlling 100 Zoltraaks though.

Fern also said it "feels like a cannon" when she blocked her rocks. If the shields only cost mana to maintain duration and area, it shouldn't "feel" like anything. It either blocks or doesn't, or feels draining to maintain because of a long duration or large area of effect.

The barrier spell is made for Zoltraak. It is not made to deflect rocks. It does deflect rocks to a degree, but Richter's point is that unless it is modified, which slows down the casting time, the barrier is not strong enough to block repeated physical attacks.

Fern correctly realized the same thing Richter was explaining to the duo.

Stop overthinking this.

Frieren and Fern use the basics because it always gets the job done. Zoltraak is made for killing. Barrier is made for defending against Zoltraak. Zoltraak is very efficient, has no telegraphed casting, its casting time is effectively zero, and when well-controlled has incredible range (as shown by Fern when she was young).

Buffalobiian

Thu, 02-08-2024, 06:59 PM

DarthEnderX

Fri, 02-09-2024, 12:16 AM

Dear god! Next episode come out so barrier talk can end!!

David75

Fri, 02-09-2024, 07:39 AM

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-09-2024, 08:22 AM

We don't know the pana reserves the girls had. And they shared their shielding. They have a strong bond, so Richter was pitted against probably between 1 to twice his mana reserves.
Don't you think it can be seen like that?

That had slipped my mind actually. Lawine got side-lined in my mind, but the up-to-double capacity is plausible, and actually have more mana combined than him is likely.

Talking about mana, I wonder if mana capacity alone would let you brute force binds. Richter didn't get frozen completely because he's "protected by mana", and Frieren blocked Draht's wire with ring of mana as well. The difference would the manner in which various binds differ from physical restraints. Ubel couldn't use her mana while under Wirbel's bind, but Laufen could blast a tree whilst still under Frieren's bind.

Actually, now that I think about this.. this means that Frieren already knew of a "general bind" (that she used against Laufen and Denken against the tree). It'd have made sense to try that spell on the birds first, unless Bird Bind was needed because Stille are "tough", or General Bind needs physical contact while Bird Bind actually works a (small) distance away. Or it too is an oversight for the sake of story.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-09-2024, 11:35 AM

Episode 22

----------------------

-Ubel can copy spells just by knowing a little about them and with empathy. Interesting tidbit that's going to give her potential, though neither Fern/Frieren's advantages can be quick-learned.

-Stark's knowing his way around Fern.

-The bakery Stark took Fern to looked like the drabest place ever.

Kraco

Fri, 02-09-2024, 04:08 PM

In my opinion the best part of the episode was the random scene where Frieren fround Stark "training". It was pretty funny how that nameless geezer apparently kept visiting Stark and dealing out possibly totally meaningless, possibly useful information, as if he was Stark's (temporary) martial arts instruction. Maybe he really was an instructor in the past, but then Alzheimer got to him, and now he's basically living in the past, teaching Stark, as if Stark was some former student of his. Funny but also sad.

-Stark's knowing his way around Fern.

I feel like Fern can just appreciate his intention and effort, as Stark isn't really smart enough to know his way around anything, and she knows that.

-The bakery Stark took Fern to looked like the drabest place ever.

Fortunately the two girls appeared, and seemed to know exactly what a young woman would like, unlike Stark and Frieren.

MFauli

Fri, 02-09-2024, 11:05 PM

Very bad episode :/

I REALLY hate how saccharine things suddenly became. Last episode: EVERYBODY, LET'S MURDER EACH OTHER YOOOOOOO!!!11. This episode: Let's spend fun time together and laugh lots! Am I kawaiii?

:|

This entire episode felt out of place, as if this wasn't a world where deadly monsters, robbers, intrigues and all sorts of horrors exist. Nah, suddenly this was portrayed as if it's peaceful paradise, with unconditional basic income, too, since Frieren just spent all her money for the fun of it. Ugh.

This is what plagues soooo many anime. They cannot properly balance serious and lighthearted scenes. Another thing older anime did so much better. Anime like Berserk, Claymore, Record of Lodoss War, Vision of Escaflowne, etc had funny scenes, too, but always within reason of the world that's depicted. Nowadays, anime just cannot do that anymore. Death and murder one minute, fun and cutesy the next. Meh ...

David75

Sat, 02-10-2024, 04:39 AM

I never lived in a country plagued with war.
But elderly had lots of stories of how they cherished brief but happy moments with others anytime they had a chance to.
Depending on where you lived, sure it was dangerous, but they still did it.
I guess that even in very trying times, it's important to party and have fun, maybe even more than in peaceful times.

Kraco

Sat, 02-10-2024, 04:45 AM

I don't believe the world is nearly as bad as you think it is. The problem with monsters and demons seem to be either sporadic and/or limited to certain spots in the world, where a demon happens to be living. Frieren & Co have seen a lot of it because they have been specifically looking for those spots while travelling.

Not to mention your view of the world is twisted by your own experience, which includes nothing but peace. If you go hundreds of years back in Europe, there simply was no peace. There were wars going on all the time. Sure, people didn't have the Internet or even the TV to get news from, but news about such big things spread with merchants, travellers, tax collectors, priests, and others. People just had no choice but to continue their lives the best they could, regardless. That shaped their minds. You don't see the "first world problems" line thrown around for nothing. If you live in certain parts of the world still today, you can't let the little things bother you anymore, as you never know if you are still alive a year from now.

In a fantasy world people as powerful as Frieren, Fern, and Stark are quite free to behave as they did in this episode. Few things can threaten their lives, plus they don't even have families or property to worry about. They are unfettered (expect for Frieren and Stark being fettered by Fern's mood swings), so they act accordingly.

MFauli

Sat, 02-10-2024, 05:09 AM

Few things can threaten their lives.

Except for literally everyone they met this episode :/

Sat, 02-10-2024, 05:29 AM

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-10-2024, 05:40 AM

This entire episode felt out of place, as if this wasn't a world where deadly monsters, robbers, intrigues and all sorts of horrors exist. Nah, suddenly this was portrayed as if it's peaceful paradise, with unconditional basic income, too, since Frieren just spent all her money for the fun of it. Ugh.

This is what plagues soooo many anime. They cannot properly balance serious and lighthearted scenes. Another thing older anime did so much better. Anime like Berserk, Claymore, Record of Lodoss War, Vision of Escaflowne, etc had funny scenes, too, but always within reason of the world that's depicted. Nowadays, anime just cannot do that anymore. Death and murder one minute, fun and cutesy the next. Meh ...
No, this episode is actually a return to form. The exam arc is out of place for the overall vibe of the series.

If you think Berserk had a good balance of serious and lighthearted, you obviously didn't read the later arcs.

Either your notion of balance is off, or you're watching the wrong series. Based on your comment, it's the former.

Frieren always spends all their money, usually on useless shit. She never cares. She would happily work in a small village for 30 years earning subsistence funds before resuming her journey. Fern is the one that watches their budget and is reminding Frieren that their lifespans are finite compared to hers, which is what Frieren wanted to learn after Himmel's death because it hurt her so much. The trio frequently has to do hard labor to make up the money.

MFauli

Sat, 02-10-2024, 05:45 AM

No, this episode is actually a return to form. The exam arc is out of place for the overall vibe of the series.

If you think Berserk had a good balance of serious and lighthearted, you obviously didn't read the later arcs.

Either your notion of balance is off, or you're watching the wrong series. Based on your comment, it's the former.

Berserk had lighthearted scenes within reason of the world depicted is what I wrote. And that's what Sousou no Frieren is lacking. One moment death and horror, the other cutesy and coziness.

@Y: The only reason no murder was committed is because they failed to. They certainly tried to kill each other. And outside of the competition, we know that Übel and Wirbel are infamous mass murderers. The way they acted in this episode didn't fit at all. I mean, the suicidal dude who was just okay with getting killed by Übel was very convenient for the writing, too.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-10-2024, 05:49 AM

Berserk had lighthearted scenes within reason of the world depicted is what I wrote. And that's what Sousou no Frieren is lacking. One moment death and horror, the other cutesy and coziness.
You need to read past the Conviction Arc, because no, it does not.

Sat, 02-10-2024, 06:10 AM

@Y: The only reason no murder was committed is because they failed to. They certainly tried to kill each other.

The test is clearly serious and life threatening, because people can die. But it equally obviously isn't a test about murders and the teams killing each other, because that didn't happen at all. There were multiple first-class mages on hand to presumably ensure it didn't. The test was not "ok, murder each other."

As for whether you could treat people relatively casually when you were just in a life-and-death scenario with them, there's nothing unbelievable about that at all, even in real life, much less an anime.

MFauli

Sat, 02-10-2024, 06:31 AM

You need to read past the Conviction Arc, because no, it does not.

I read the manga, dude. It does.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-10-2024, 07:41 AM

The episode was fine. It's in line with the overall vibe of the anime.

And there's nothing wrong with chatting with examinees during off time. Just because you can kill them during the test doesn't mean you should kill them in between. It's illegal to do so outside of the exam setting anyway.

The only real caveat here is Ubel, who steals your shit by talking to you - so she's one to worry about.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-10-2024, 10:52 AM

I mean, I'd want Ubel to steal all the shit she can then try that shit on Fern just to get pwned.

Mana reserves destroy versatility in this show. Freiren mentioned she lost to some human mages in the past, but I bet she just didn't bombard them with all her mana to avoid murdering them. The contest was probably of skill, not pure combat. If it were, she would be dead already, having lost.

Kraco

Sat, 02-10-2024, 11:11 AM

Except for literally everyone they met this episode :/

That's nothing. When they are travelling, they only need to be worried about the most powerful demons and maybe some rare monsters that are an exceptionally bad match for them. In the city they are right now, the only thing they should be worried about is how to pass the next test.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-10-2024, 11:25 AM

Even then, there exists such a thing as no hard feelings. If a Christmas Truce can happen in WW1, examinees can be cordial with each other during their off time, especially because they might be allied up again in the next stages of the exam.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 02-10-2024, 11:47 AM

Except for literally everyone they met this episode :/None of them are a threat to Frieren.

No one committed murder in the first stage of the exam. The only team that died was killed by the hostile monster birds.The teammate of the team Denken got his bird from died fighting other mages. As did, presumably, at least one of those other mages.

The test is clearly serious and life threatening, because people can die. But it equally obviously isn't a test about murders and the teams killing each other, because that didn't happen at all. There were multiple first-class mages on hand to presumably ensure it didn't.COMPLETELY disagree. The test was designed to make teams fight, and the rules made it so killing was the quickest way to eliminate the other team.

And the first class mages didn't to SHIT to ensure people didn't die. They never even went in the bubble.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-10-2024, 03:04 PM

And the first class mages didn't to SHIT to ensure people didn't die. They never even went in the bubble.

They were sitting in the bubble.

I mean, I'd want Ubel to steal all the shit she can then try that shit on Fern just to get pwned.
Wirbel's binding spell is a bit bothersome though. It's exceedingly good in 1v1. Even though mana can "protect" you like it did for Richter against ice and Frieren against Draht's wires, I'm not sure that mana protection works the same way against binds specifically - especially since this one shuts down your mana control.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-10-2024, 04:16 PM

Wirbel's binding spell is a bit bothersome though. It's exceedingly good in 1v1. Even though mana can "protect" you like it did for Richter against ice and Frieren against Draht's wires, I'm not sure that mana protection works the same way against binds specifically - especially since this one shuts down your mana control.

You're basically a sitting duck about to be Starlight Breaker'd zoltraaked.

Sat, 02-10-2024, 07:41 PM

The teammate of the team Denken got his bird from died fighting other mages. As did, presumably, at least one of those other mages.

COMPLETELY disagree. The test was designed to make teams fight, and the rules made it so killing was the quickest way to eliminate the other team.

And the first class mages didn't to SHIT to ensure people didn't die. They never even went in the bubble.

Yeah sorry I posted that drunk at 6AM.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-16-2024, 01:12 PM

E23

-------------------

That OST at the end was hype.

Given that the copy is Frieren (and assuming that copies only copy whoever was in the room), then Frieren's already made it past it (but not defeat it) somehow.

Methode had an interesting counter-attack spell that just nullifies the attack while maintaining a barrier. That's pretty cool. Maybe it's actually a modified defense spell.

I had a good chuckle at Eisen's "That's right, that's right!" but in Eisen-voice.

And this episode finally explains why Frieren keeps getting caught by mimcs. It's not that she can't detect them. She just gambles - and they're overall not life threatening. Until now I was trying to reconcile how someone so cautious and intuitive in battle could fall for mimics so hard. Turns out she just tanks them with a YOLO attitude.

Kraco

Fri, 02-16-2024, 04:15 PM

She just gambles - and they're overall not life threatening.

But it's dark and scary in there!

Ryllharu

Fri, 02-16-2024, 05:44 PM

Frieren skipping across the hallways of the dungeon delighted just to be there is going to be exactly why they pass.

She and Fern are acting like they're there for the challenge alone.

I actually don't remember these chapters at all.

I'm surprised we didn't see any of Kanne & Lawine. Edel and her uncles will pass somehow, or maybe be used for a golem gag. The first dude is almost certainly dead despite Sense's best effort.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 02-16-2024, 10:29 PM

Awesome cliffhanger. I thought "Doppelganger's? No big deal. Frieren will take care of Frieren."

I don't think some other group would have to fight Frieren.

Given that the copy is Frieren (and assuming that copies only copy whoever was in the room)Not sure why you'd assume that.

And this episode finally explains why Frieren keeps getting caught by mimcs.Yeah, she has an obvious "I'm stuck" fetish.

"No no, you have to PUSH."

MFauli

Sat, 02-17-2024, 12:46 AM

I like Denken. I also think he´ll llose here because he cannot think outside the not enough. The goal ought to be to get past "Frieren", but he´s trying to defeat her. Impossible.

David75

Sat, 02-17-2024, 01:23 AM

They need a mimic to defeat Frieren's copy. But Denken can't win, because he thinks no mage at this stage would fall for such a basic trap. hahaha

Edit: I was wondering if the "Kurai yo kowai yo" is an "urusei yatsura" reference/jab. The joke being Frieren is like Mendo... trouble that is :-)

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-17-2024, 03:24 AM

Not sure why you'd assume that.

Because in both fights that have featured copies thus far, the copied people were in the same room. Given that everybody's split up, if this were to be random and include people outside of the room then we should expect to see someone different.

So, based on that, I think it's reasonable to think that Frieren's copy was a result of Frieren having been in that room.

The room where the purple magic diamond manifested also looked exactly like Denken's room. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the final boss chamber.

The task was also to reach the final floor of the room, but not to clear it. If the final floor of the room contained a boss (eg copies) then one can just reach the floor then bail.

I also noticed that:

1) Richter doesn't use a staff. He always just touches the ground.
2) The "dungeon floor" where Himmel talked about clearing was in broad daylight. Looked more like they were supposed to enter the dungeon.
3) Little girl got knocked back despite blocking with her shield.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 02-17-2024, 02:16 PM

The task was also to reach the final floor of the room, but not to clear it. If the final floor of the room contained a boss (eg copies) then one can just reach the floor then bail.One would assume that the Boss room is meant to guard something. And they have no way of knowing if it's just guarding another room, or if it's a staircase to a lower level. So unless they get past the Boss they don't KNOW if they've passed or not.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-17-2024, 02:40 PM

You indeed wouldn't know for sure, you'd just have to guess based on the encounter/feel and whether or not you think you've encountered a boss.

Their guess would be more accurate if they have experience with previous dungeons of similar architecture.

Frieren did mention that it felt different to a dungeon that has supposedly never been cleared. She didn't specify what felt off, but I'm guessing that it actually has been cleared and is set up for exam purposes.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 02-23-2024, 01:22 PM

E24

------------------------------

-Frieren enjoys ensuring Fern enjoys herself just as Fern does.

-lol @ Fern being jealous of someone threatening her Mummy Fern status - big boobs and all.

-"Barring a large difference in mana".

-Denken bringing up his fists at the thought of "brute force" then dropping the idea xD

-If the clone doesn't have a mind, then the Mimic gag would probably not happen. If it's programmed to fight then it won't go around finding books.

-Edel breaking down their chances of winning seems so weird compared to her freaking out while trying to defrost the lake in the 1st test. She feels like 2 different people.

-So they clarrified a few things:
---everybody inside the dungeon gets closed.
---The dungeon is indeed yet to be conquered.
---Denken actually made it to the room faster than Frieren since Frieren was exploring.
---According to Denken, the bottom floor is yet to be reached.
---Ehre has relatively poor situational awareness compared to her battle-hardenned friend.

Ryllharu

Fri, 02-23-2024, 02:27 PM

-Edel breaking down their chances of winning seems so weird compared to her freaking out while trying to defrost the lake in the 1st test. She feels like 2 different people.

This is prime example of Sousou no Frieren's loose, indeterminant, and revisionist lore at work.

Edel and the other two were very clearly noted as a team that would fail because they failed to assess the situation properly.

Someone (editor maybe?) liked her design, so she's revised into somehow miraculously passing a test they clearly were planned to and called out as expected to fail, and now she's also the heiress to hypnosis magic and highly skilled at it and modern physical manipulation magic as well.

Edel gets a manufactured huge increase in competence, still deeply inconsequential to the story. Used as a lore dump and dismissed from the narrative.

You do not see this kind of flippant lore behavior in Dungeon Meshi. Completely the opposite. Wrong thread, but for contrast, we're already starting to see passing mentions knit together there.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 02-23-2024, 03:47 PM

They're pretty lucky the copies seem content to just guard their specific area and don't seem to actively chase you down.

Seems like, with Fieren here, beating the Frieren clone should be easy. Have Frieren match it's power, and then everyone else just ganks it.

The real question is...where the hell are everyone ELSE'S clones? You have at least 3 people at the door here who's clones are unaccounted for.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-24-2024, 02:16 AM

Freiren clone already used them up.

For Science.

David75

Sat, 02-24-2024, 02:21 AM

The gag would be that Fieren's clone is still attrated to the mimic trap.

Would loop well with the recurring meme and Denken's comment.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-24-2024, 03:28 AM

The gag would be that Fieren's clone is still attrated to the mimic trap.

Would loop well with the recurring meme and Denken's comment.

Except it doesn't have a mind, so it shouldn't jeopardize itself like that - as funny as it would be to just push a mimic chest into the room and watch the clone doom itself.

Seems like, with Fieren here, beating the Frieren clone should be easy. Have Frieren match it's power, and then everyone else just ganks it.

Yeah, the clones only seem to be a problem if the numbers and enemies are evenly matched. Once you have the original fight the clone, any additional help would just overwhelm it.

David75

Sat, 02-24-2024, 03:36 AM

Point would be Frieren's meme transcends her mind and is part of her body/mana ;)

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-24-2024, 06:59 AM

hmm, so one thing that's mentioned is that mana capacity is improved via training - the more time you spend training the higher it gets.

I wonder how mana regeneration rate is affected. If most people recover their full mana capacity over the course of a day, then someone like Frieren would recovery the daily capacity of a basic mage within the span of 2.4hrs, which would allow her to be much more liberal with her spells.

If recovery rate is separate from capacity, then mana would be treated as a rarer, stockpiled resource like Tohsaka Rin's gems (or a blood bank).

MFauli

Sat, 02-24-2024, 11:02 AM

This episode felt rather drawon out, but I'm probably just frustrated that I didn't get to see the Frieren-fight.

With Frieren there, I agree, it shouldn't be an issue anymore, unless the anime intends for some shocking twist a la "FREREN HAS GROWN SO POWERFUL OVER THE CENTURIES THAT ALL OF YOU BEING THERE OR NOT AMOUNTS TO LITERALLY NO DIFFERENCE!!11". I like that Fern is stepping up as the one who thinks she can 1-up Frieren in raw power ,though. We're seen Fern fighting before and raw power was exactly what she was doing. I just wonder why she thinks she can overpower Frieren.

A bit disappointed that Denken won't be the one to outsmart at least-Frieren, imo he deserves such win.

Edel being hit, was that supposed to be a scratch? It look like she got pierced which, erm, would be deadly?

Sense being copied is fucked up, lol.

Also at this point it must be noted: While Denken's original plan of going in there as a group was good, imagine what would have happened had they ALL gone in together LOL.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 02-24-2024, 11:25 AM

as funny as it would be to just push a mimic chest into the room and watch the clone doom itself.It wouldn't even work though. We know Frieren can just blast her way out of them if she wants.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-24-2024, 11:43 AM

Sense being copied is fucked up, lol.

Lends credence to the theory that she wants every single person to fail, regardless of what she says about how it is supposed to generate the need to cooperate.

She won't interfere or act, so even if she tells herself that she's tagging along for observation and safety, she knows she's going to be copied and present as an exceptional dangerous wild card.

All the examiners are hypocrites for saying what they do, but then acting in a manner that amplifies the failure rates.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-24-2024, 12:25 PM

Did Sense ever say that she wants them to pass? AFAIK she said she doesn't want them to die and lose potentially useful/powerful mages, so she gave them those golems.

Kraco

Sat, 02-24-2024, 01:00 PM

Since the mind isn't copied, those clones won't ever be as good as the original. It's not like the spells and mana pool are the only things making a mage dangerous. That being said, if Sense is a pacifist, the clone would have done nothing to stop the examinees if they hadn't attacked it first. So, yeah, the mind definitely is not copied. But then again, how smart is the monster? If it's really smart, the clone could even be smarter than the original.

It's pretty funny I still don't remember this at all from the manga.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-24-2024, 01:09 PM

It wouldn't even work though. We know Frieren can just blast her way out of them if she wants.

It's not that the mimic will kill her or ensnare her for long, but the fact that if she had the mind of a real Frieren then she'd investigate it for a book and be momentarily caught. As Denken said, they're looking for opennings. It's not going to be used as a bear trap.

Did Sense ever say that she wants them to pass? AFAIK she said she doesn't want them to die and lose potentially useful/powerful mages, so she gave them those golems.

She just says that she dislikes fighting, and that they don't need to worry, that the exam was simple, and that everyone who makes it to the bottom will pass. The she says that anyone who is aiming for the pinnacle of magehood should be able to make the impossible possible.

So this is an impossible task, by normal standards. But if you're Jesus, you'll pass.

I like that Fern is stepping up as the one who thinks she can 1-up Frieren in raw power ,though. We're seen Fern fighting before and raw power was exactly what she was doing. I just wonder why she thinks she can overpower Frieren.

They've specifically said that Fern can't beat Frieren in mana capacity or technique. Her advantages are that she's fast, she has great control of magic and she can conceal herself 100% (due to control). Frieren has specifically said that weaker mages than her have beaten her, and this is going to be one of those instances.

Fern has overpowered people because her control and speed allows her to near-instantly barrage people. I don't think her mana pool would be considered small since she overpowered Erhe, but it's certainly smaller than Frieren's. We know that Flamme's was pretty impressive, and Heiter was 5x that of an experienced mage.

Kraco

Sat, 02-24-2024, 03:31 PM

She just says that she dislikes fighting, and that they don't need to worry, that the exam was simple, and that everyone who makes it to the bottom will pass. The she says that anyone who is aiming for the pinnacle of magehood should be able to make the impossible possible.

That one group can actually mock her by telling her that she absolutely loves fighting and is extremely bloodthirsty. They should know, after trying to fight her clone. Better spread the news in the town as well, so that future generations taking the exam won't be fooled by her. Create a legend of Sense the Butcher.

MFauli

Sat, 02-24-2024, 03:56 PM

I mean, "Sense" is German for "Scythe", lol ...

DarthEnderX

Sat, 02-24-2024, 07:49 PM

I mean, "Sense" is German for "Scythe", lol ...Harvest that wheat, baby!

Buffalobiian

Fri, 03-01-2024, 11:45 AM

E25

-------------

So you can notice whether a mage stops detecting magic by observing at them? (Not anyone can do it since clearly Kanne etc can't) That's... interesting, and to a degree hard to make sense of.

Mana detection would have to work like active sonar for that to make any sense. If it works like passive-listenning, which is how I imagined mana detection to be like, then you can only draw the conclusion that someone isn't paying attention by watching them get caught out.

In the scene that we were show, Fern shoots and Frieren blocks. Supposedly it was observable that she stopped mana detection for a moment when she cast Shield. This also implies that mana detection is on at all times though.

what Frieren said about Zoltraak being a new spell that elves haven't yet learned to reflexively block mostly makes sense. The bit that falls flat a bit is where she says that Fern is supposed to have an advantage. Fern being young would give her in advantage in blocking Zoltraak since recognition causing input lag is what we're talking about. Recognition isn't an issue when you're firing Zoltraak. That's just spell activation time, and that's a Fern-specific advantage rather than a Modern Mage thing.