Chainsaw Man [Archive] - Gotwoot Forums

KrayZ33

Tue, 10-11-2022, 02:58 PM

Chainsaw Man

https://i.imgur.com/kmyg9gc.png

"Chainsaw Man follows the story of Denji, an impoverished young man who after making a contract with a dog-like devil named Pochita, he fuses with Denji, granting him the ability to transform parts of his body into chainsaws. Denji eventually joins the Public Safety Devil Hunters, a government agency focused on fighting against devils whenever they become a threat to the world. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainsaw_Man
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Episode 1

Uhm... lol, for some reason I actually cried when The doggo-demon sacrificed himself for him.
I have no idea why that short bit was already so touching for me.
Maybe because I love dogs and I think that the poor/homless guy and his loyal dog "trope" is just too beautiful. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real.
Giving up the little wealth you have to feed your best buddy, an animal just hits me right in the feels.

Great episode imho. Seems interesting, sounds interesting, I hope it will remain that way.
Did expect alot and got a lot.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-11-2022, 07:35 PM

That man is made of chainsaws!

Kraco

Wed, 10-12-2022, 01:26 AM

I liked the first episode. I wouldn't really say the plot was anything special, quite textbook, but it worked well. Maybe the MC's personality isn't quite what I'd prefer, seeing how he was ready to sell parts of his own body to pay back his dead old man's debt, and then afterwards he was selling his work almost for free. And there was absolutely no honour in it because it was all mafia stuff, it was just stupidity. In other words, he's a hopeless idiot. However, I didn't sense the excruciatingly bad Japanese "a hero must always be piss-poor" trope, so at least the dude still functions as an MC in my eyes. On the other hand, as humble as it was, he still had got a dream, which also redeems him in my eyes.

The demon dog sacrificing itself to save the dude was a nice, if expected twist. I liked the ending even more, though, when the official demon hunter woman actually gave the MC a hug. What's one hug compared to destroying a whole horde of zombies and the demon behind the zombies? If she can recruit someone capable of that by giving him a hug, it's quite a bargain. Yet for the dude it was already fulfilling a part of his dream, for which his dog sacrificed its life for.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 10-12-2022, 02:52 AM

I can't imagine the dog is dead for real. It seems like a pretty blatant mascot character. I'm sure there will be more scenes of the dog talking to him inside his head.

KrayZ33

Wed, 10-12-2022, 09:39 AM

I can't imagine the dog is dead for real. It seems like a pretty blatant mascot character. I'm sure there will be more scenes of the dog talking to him inside his head.

While I agree, this would make the whole scene worse for me.
I'd respect them more if they created than Wan-Saw good boy just for that episode and maybe a few flashbacks.

But I doubt it, especially since he started talking.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind it if there is some kind of issue with him being a demon-thing now that will bring up the little guy again.
Maybe the goodest boy will eventually take over if he doesn't watch out and MC will turn into a problem-demon.
I was surprised for example that the woman said he isn't possessed. I guess that someone in that universe is only called possessed if he can't act on his own anymore or something.

David75

Wed, 10-12-2022, 10:19 AM

Pochita spoke to Denji in his dream right before he gets out of the trash container.
To me this indicates a direct mind to mind connexion as Pochita was fusing with Denji.

Cop said Denji isn't possessed because Pochita didn't take control, it transfered all of his powers/abilities to Denji and supposedly abandoned his own spirit/life. But maybe not. After all Pochita said it wanted to see Denji's dreams fullfiled, as in be there to watch them happen.
I don't know if it really makes a difference. We'll see if the subject is ever coming back.

I like the fact that not all demons are necessary there for evil deeds. Pochita probably had his needs involving sucking blood and maybe we'll get flash-backs to clarify this. But in the end it did something so selfless. So for now we have very basic demons to be treated as mindless beasts (tomato and others), evil ones (zombifier) and Pochita class. I guess the later is the rarity for the show to provide enough gore action scenes.

Buffalobiian

Thu, 10-13-2022, 03:05 AM

"Show me your dreams" is difficult to interpret because in anime it always feels like the body counts as Pochita. I normally wouldn't have 100% certaintay that Pochita would retain cognitive functions based on that line alone.

I didn't really enjoy the animation. There was enough CGI in there for it to feel janky.

neflight86

Thu, 10-13-2022, 08:19 AM

Agreed. Serviceable premiere, but the abundance of CG may bring this down a notch. I heard this was slated for a mere 12 eps, which I can assure you would not capture the story as intended. I hope I misheard.

Pochita is cute enough to stand out among the remaining character designs, but feeds into the eclectic nature of the series. Denji is aimless and aloof, not grasping the existential horror of his predicament but for a moment, but can find some happiness with his cute dog demon. Strange.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-13-2022, 09:14 AM

In my opinion the CGI animations made the characters move a whole lot better than what we normaly see.
I wouldn't mind if all animes would use it like that, although that would probably get boring after a while, since there is something about being able to see a multitude of animation styles.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 10-13-2022, 09:34 AM

I was okay with the CGI. I normally am not, but here it was acceptable. Not a good thing, imo, but not bad either.

BTW, when Denji spoke to the girl in the suit, what he said is actually "Can you let me fuck you?" but can also mean "Can I embrace you?" in Japanese.

Kraco

Thu, 10-13-2022, 10:45 AM

BTW, when Denji spoke to the girl in the suit, what he said is actually "Can you let me fuck you?" but can also mean "Can I embrace you?" in Japanese.

That's something else... Not that he would have been in any shape to do it. Still, if those folks' job is to slaughter demons all day long and in the process witness the fates of demons' victims, like a warehouse full of corpses, I doubt she would have much cared about any rudeness.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 10-13-2022, 12:04 PM

I wonder if he has a chainsaw penis...

David75

Thu, 10-13-2022, 01:10 PM

99.99% sure he has since all his body parts are now linked with chains.
But he probably can't score girls and certainly would not in his chainsaw form.

MFauli

Fri, 10-14-2022, 03:53 AM

KrayZ33

Fri, 10-14-2022, 04:26 AM

Overall okay first episode. And yes, the devil dog isn't dead, 100% still inside his mind.

What I didn't like, though, is how it feels like the awkwardness of Japanese live-action movies is now fully manifesting itself in anime. There's just so many weird things being said or shown that, if I were watching this with another person in the room with me, would make me feel super embarrassed. Like, why did he sell his balls and an eye? Why didn't he run away? Why is everyone talking about devils as if it's normal? Why did the girl hug him and treat him so friendly? Why didn't he stay in the garbage can and wait for the zombie devil to go away?

Did you somehow unlearn how to watch movies, read books and enjoy media?
I mean all media, not just anime or japanese shows.

Aside from most points obviously being adressed in some way in the future, while other actually HAVE been adressed already - the bolded part is what is really weird.
Did you consider that... it would have been boring to watch and be an awful show if he had not?
"Why did Superman use his powers" is basically what you asked.

I really struggle to follow you most of the time, you must be really unfun to be around when watching shows or movies. Especially since you somehow expect everything to be explained in less than a second for some reason instead of trying to think for yourself even once, why is that? That's not how media and art is done. These aren't documentaries you are watching and if they aren't and do it like that, it's actually for the worse and every critique would point it out as a flaw and say how unnecessary it is.

What the heck - I think you shouldn't worry about other people watching this show with you. There is something you have to take care of first that would make another person even want to watch a show together with you in one room, lol.

Would you even be *able* to understand what is happening in shows like CP:Edgerunners ? Considering how that show is basically all in on the "show, don't tell" approach. Sorry, not sorry, to dick on you again once more, but I don't believe, considering your points here, that you can even say anything meaningful about the writing of a show and no one would even have a clue what a show would have to be told or look like to please you. Sometimes I think you are just trying to be contrary to... something.. I don't even know what. I guess it's no fluke that you hold shows like that semi-Sex-Show from last season in high regards while others immediatly see it as trash, for good reason.

Oh btw, it's not like I want you to reconsider liking this show more or anything. My gripe is with the arguments solely.

MFauli

Fri, 10-14-2022, 04:39 AM

Did you consider that... it would have been boring to watch and be an awful show if he had not?

???
It would have been much more interesting had he taken a smart direction like that. That would have shown that this show is more grounded and based on reality. Instead it instantly went ultra-seinen-shounen for no reason.

And yes, I don't enjoy most media nowadays, because writers have given up to write coherent stories. It's why I mostly watch older stuff, whether it's anime, hollywood movies or videogames. Replaying "Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance" right now and its writing is sooo much better than that of the newer games.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-14-2022, 05:01 AM

That would have shown that this show is more grounded and based on reality....the show with the guy made of chainsaws?

MFauli

Fri, 10-14-2022, 05:03 AM

...the show with the guy made of chainsaws?

Seen Parasyte?

Kraco

Fri, 10-14-2022, 05:16 AM

Why didn't he stay in the garbage can and wait for the zombie devil to go away?

He wasn't in the right mind to even consider his situation. He knew he died for a fact, getting torn into pieces, yet somehow he came back to life, perfectly healthy, and it seemed like his only friend and ally in the world sacrificed itself for him. He jumped up because it was the natural reaction in his shock. In other words, he wasn't thinking about anything. He only, again, became aware of the zombies when they noticed him and the demon told the zombies to eat him.

Like, why did he sell his balls and an eye? Why didn't he run away?

Because he clearly isn't the sharpest tooth in a chainsaw chain. There are a lot of people in this world who aren't as smart as they could be under different circumstances. And then there are just people who were born stupid due to their genes. It's possible his background made him grow up with insufficient nutrients and he's lacking education as well.

Why is everyone talking about devils as if it's normal?

They clearly are normal in that world. So normal there's a government agency established to get rid of them, but there's also a black market trading demon organs.

Why did the girl hug him and treat him so friendly?

Because he asked? And she sees potential in him. Or at least I hope so. If your job was killing demons and you came upon a person highly competent in that trade but possibly not yet employed, wouldn't you try to recruit such a person?

MFauli

Fri, 10-14-2022, 05:34 AM

He wasn't in the right mind to even consider his situation. He knew he died for a fact, getting torn into pieces, yet somehow he came back to life, perfectly healthy, and it seemed like his only friend and ally in the world sacrificed itself for him. He jumped up because it was the natural reaction in his shock. In other words, he wasn't thinking about anything. He only, again, became aware of the zombies when they noticed him and the demon told the zombies to eat him.

Because he clearly isn't the sharpest tooth in a chainsaw chain. There are a lot of people in this world who aren't as smart as they could be under different circumstances. And then there are just people who were born stupid due to their genes. It's possible his background made him grow up with insufficient nutrients and he's lacking education as well.

They clearly are normal in that world. So normal there's a government agency established to get rid of them, but there's also a black market trading demon organs.

Because he asked? And she sees potential in him. Or at least I hope so. If your job was killing demons and you came upon a person highly competent in that trade but possibly not yet employed, wouldn't you try to recruit such a person?

Kraco, I want to say but this: All of these are your interpretations. I'm not wrong to question these things, just like you're not wrong to answer them like this for yourself. But I have a problem when you guys often answer my criticism with your personal opinion as if I'm objectively wrong.

I'll keep watching and waiting for answers. Now return to talk about the anime and not about my criticism.

Kraco

Fri, 10-14-2022, 06:40 AM

I'm not sure what you were expecting if not interpretations. Spoilers? I can't give those since I knew nothing of this series previously. Plus I'd then need to edit my own post to remove the spoiler because they are against the rules.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-14-2022, 07:53 AM

Mfauli isn't wrong to ask these questions, but he can't really complain if people criticize him for it. There are many ways to interpret fiction, but complaining about not being spoon-fed everything will expectedly get you flak. Just understand that as you can think that "the show is wrong because of X" people can also think "you are wrong because of X", and as you want to express those views, others will want to express their views (of your views, in this case).

David75

Fri, 10-14-2022, 08:01 AM

Denji is young, has no famille or friends, doesn't go to school.
No education whatsoever. I do not expect him to react like a norm that is just
an average expectation, certainly not a prediction.
He's already a demon killer, he comes back from death and feels that new power inside his body.
It's not that strange he starts using those powers and killing demons, like he has been for some time now.
His organs ? Very strange yes, but not that out of this world, Denji does not seem to be very smart.
Did you watch the X-files ep with the exact same deal with organs ?

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-14-2022, 08:19 AM

Kraco

Fri, 10-14-2022, 09:11 AM

About the organs, he was likely coerced by those loan sharks to pay the money back, and without recourse, he did what he could. If he ran, he thought he would get pursued and killed. Even if he managed to fight off a few of them, he probably thought they will eventually kill him. Selling organs to pay debts isn't exactly unheard of even IRL.

He's a dude who could kill demons, which is something people apparently would rather not do out of fear and leave it to the professionals. If a man with demon slaying skills couldn't escape from mafia, who ever could? I'd say he felt some kind of strange obligation to pay back his old man's debt, and it didn't ever visit his mind to try to avoid the responsibility, even though it didn't have anything to do with him. How the mafia swindled his reward money away spoke volumes about Denji's lack of wits. It was like a textbook case of seemingly paying him pretty decent money, but then suddenly there were all kinds of expenses, leaving him with a mere fraction of the reward. That's the kind of scam that works on the gullible. At least they still paid him something. In some Japanese "comedy" I have seen negative rewards after all the expenses. Wasn't that also the case in Konosuba? It's a part of the insufferable "a hero must always be poor" Japanese trope.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 10-14-2022, 09:16 AM

I reckon some dude just went "I'll have one of your balls for 50 grand" or something. There's no legit uses for testicles or eyes, assuming similar tech and also that demons/demon slayers don't use them for shit.

Now thinking about it, it's probably not that sound of an assumption given that people will pay for demon corpses.

KrayZ33

Fri, 10-14-2022, 09:59 AM

Kraco, I want to say but this: All of these are your interpretations. I'm not wrong to question these things, just like you're not wrong to answer them like this for yourself. But I have a problem when you guys often answer my criticism with your personal opinion as if I'm objectively wrong.

I'll keep watching and waiting for answers. Now return to talk about the anime and not about my criticism.

Nahaaaaahhhh.... that's not what is happening here.
You are acting if all your questions were left unanswered and acted as if the show is at fault.
After that you start to make things up like "this and that happened for no reason"
Or "this and that would've been more realistic".

If you could at the very least even explain your point of view about an issue you'd have an argument.
But you are willfully ignoring what is happening in the show because you can't see it.

Questions like "Why did he sell his eye" and stuff like that are only questions you could possibly ask after the show has shown us and explained it at length as to why he is doing what he is doing.
You could question his sanity or question the reason why he is trying to pay back the money in the first place but that's not what you are doing.

You questioned stuff like why he didn't remain hidden in the garbage can instead, completely ignoring the scene that has shown us how he awakened and came back to life.
You are just not paying any attention whatsoever and yes: You ARE wrong to ask "why didn't he stay in the trash bin". You didn't pay attention, because then you would know that he didn't even had the choice to do so and that it was 100% involuntary.

Come on, that's exactly what I was talking about.
It's not even just the visual information, stuff like "why is everyone acting as if devils are normal" just means you have no idea about world building and how that is done.

David75

Fri, 10-14-2022, 10:23 AM

True, Denji gets his body parts to reassemble thanks to fusing with Pochita and stands up in the process: forgot it was not intentional in the first place.
He is noticed by the zombifier demon, said demon orders his zombies to get back to Denji.
Denji moves, understands he somehow has Pochita as part of himself and kickstarts the chainsaw motor...

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-14-2022, 10:30 AM

If a man with demon slaying skills couldn't escape from mafia, who ever could?

People generally don't escape the mafia. They will eventually get you, or at least that is the reputation that they build. Take out a few, then they will go in greater numbers to snuff out those who oppose them. He did have demon slaying powers by using Pochita, but he was a normal human otherwise. He could just get shot in the head while sleeping or walking to get coffee.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-14-2022, 01:16 PM

Seen Parasyte?You're missing the point.

Nobody goes into a show about a man made of chainsaws looking for grounded reality. Except you apparently.

MFauli

Fri, 10-14-2022, 04:06 PM

You're missing the point.

Nobody goes into a show about a man made of chainsaws looking for grounded reality. Except you apparently.

You're being a SJW again. "Why do you complain about female knights in a story where magic and dragons exist?!!!". Just because one element is fantasy doesn't mean all plausibility is thrown out of the window. I LOVE serious, grounded stories that feature ONE fantastical element, hence why I keep watching isekai anime. It's why I love Death Note. It's why the origin stories of all the Marvel-movies are fun to watch where the hero awakens a fantastic ability and shows how that works in combination with the real world. So that's what I expected here. I didn't expect a more gore-y Boku no Hero Academia. That is my fault, admittedly.

When I started watching this episode 1, I just kept thinking "why isn't he going to the police?", "why isn't he going to the government to be put in an institution for orphans?" and "why does he not run away? Yakuza won't be able to find some random kid". The anime didn't take the time to introduce us to its world properly and while that might still happen in the future, it's not a narrative structure I like.

neflight86

Fri, 10-14-2022, 04:22 PM

When I started watching this episode 1, I just kept thinking "why isn't he going to the police?", "why isn't he going to the government to be put in an institution for orphans?" and "why does he not run away? Yakuza won't be able to find some random kid". The anime didn't take the time to introduce us to its world properly and while that might still happen in the future, it's not a narrative structure I like.

I think something that is really holding back your ability to enjoy certain series, not the least of which this, is that you sometimes only view events through a singular perspective most of the time: Your self insert perspective combined with your life's worth of experience and all the time in the world to consider your options from the safety of your chair (like the rest of us). Denji had a different upbringing than most people. He had a deadbeat father who was in debt to the yakuza and died very likely without introducing Denji to some of the social services or government agencies that might be able to help Denji (or even himself). Denji has no formal education and is living alone in a shack. You don't choose to do that if you know it's a choice. He is calorie deprived, so his reasoning is even weaker than normal (and he is not portrayed as very bright in the first place). The yakuza know where to find him and give him 'honest work', so there is no reason to be dissatisfied, except for being hungry sometimes, as far as he knows.

His reaction to impending death is telling: he has regrets, but not much resentment as this is just his normal- kill or be killed, except with demons more than humans. Little of what I just wrote was mentioned in the episode- I pieced it together from the context of the character and his personality and actions. That practice might help you explain to yourself why things don't always go as you think they should if you were calling the shots. Sorry that it bothers you, but it all makes more than enough sense to me.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-15-2022, 12:40 AM

You're being a SJW again.Lol! Oh yeah. That famous social justice platform "wackier anime". It's all me and the other snowflakes talk about.

Ryllharu

Sun, 10-16-2022, 03:21 AM

Well, I finally watched the first episode to see what the hype was about.

Normally, rotoscoping sticks out like a sore thumb to me and downgrades a lot of what it is present in, but this might be some really deft use of it for the first time. They managed to make the jerky CG animation smooth. It's still a little jarring, but it worked.

The sound design was really good though.

I'd kinda be happy with this if it was just a one-shot. This episode felt like a perfect and complete arc all by itself.

I do get the impression that Denji just traded one organization abusing him for another that hasn't yet, but absolutely will. You can always tell when a story is going to be one of those types of narratives, and this one reeks of it.

KrayZ33

Tue, 10-18-2022, 01:01 PM

Episode 2

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I like where this show is going. I'm sure MC will have his moment, one version of it or another.

Female Team lead seems to have similar features as "Power". At least her eyes look similar and odd in the same way, but a little different.

David75

Tue, 10-18-2022, 01:22 PM

And the opening seems to be spoiling she's either like Denji or like Power.
I liked that ep better than the first one, less action. I know, I should'nt be watching that show haha.

KrayZ33

Tue, 10-18-2022, 01:26 PM

I couldn't tell the difference between fiend and devil?

Fiend = possessed.
Devil = the being that is possessing?

And the opening seems to be spoiling she's either like Denji or like Power.

Does it? Because of that parasite thingy that grows out of the feelers of snails?
I took that image metaphorically since she seems to be manipulative.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 10-18-2022, 01:52 PM

Devil = The supernatural beings that devil hunters kill e.g. Pochita.
Fiend = When a devil possesses a human body. The human consciousness is gone, and only the devil persona remains e.g. Power
Contracted Devil = Different from possession. The devil retains its form but provides power to the human contractor. Pochita allowed Denji to use him as a weapon/tool, the zombie devil turned his contractors into zombies.
Denji's situation = Devil provides its heart to a dead human. The human consciousness is intact. The devil consciousness is alive but dormant.

neflight86

Tue, 10-18-2022, 02:45 PM

Denji's inner thoughts read T-Shirts at hot topic.

After two episodes, the I'm comfortable with the texture and direction. Really good stuff.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-18-2022, 09:07 PM

Power seems fun.

MFauli

Tue, 10-18-2022, 09:21 PM

Much better 2nd episode. While I still think Denji's entire situation makes no sense and this episode actually increased the "no" here (the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh), his singlemindedness is quite entertaining. And I can relate with him, lol, what a grand goal he has in mind!!1

My biggest gripe with the series would be that it just has this "Japanese Live-Action" weirdness to it, something that I also experienced with Durararara and Baccano. At least the story is easier to follow in Chainsawman, so it's not as off-putting.

Denji actually feeling the pain when he uses his own chainsaws is fucked up, btw.

Edit: Power just looks like a Zero Two-knockoff, lol. She is fun, though, yes.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-18-2022, 11:53 PM

so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help?Probably, like most abused kids, didn't know who to ask.

He's dumb as shit, and the only people he regularly interacts with are exploiting him.

MFauli

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:24 AM

Probably, like most abused kids, didn't know who to ask.

He's dumb as shit, and the only people he regularly interacts with are exploiting him.

Look, Darth, I don't wanna discuss this with you, because any consequent reply will be met with insults and ridicule.

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".

It's weird and not my fault if the anime thinks it can save an explaining flashback for later.

Anyway, other than that, I'm getting into the series, it's fun to watch. Even though I wish Denji didn't let himself abuse by others so much. He reminds me somewhat of the electric boy from Boku no Hero Academia after he uses his electric powers.

KrayZ33

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:52 AM

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".

It's weird and not my fault if the anime thinks it can save an explaining flashback for later.

Well... it's not like "the anime thinks" it can save it for later, because it absolutely can.
The question is why you need it to be explained right now to the point were you feel "frustrated" by it if you aren't getting your answer spoon fed.
It would add absolutely nothing to the show as of right now and whatever reason given later, if there even is one, could potentially enrich the way the story is or was told in hindsight.

I have no idea why it's so difficult for you to relate to his situation.
As if it's the first time some kid is being extorted even though "hE cOuLd hAvE gOnE tO tHe PoLiCE".

"why didn't the kid tell someone that she got raped by this dude, silly kid" - said no one ever in real life either. Or rather, only absolute idiots that have no idea about anything would say something like that.
So why should it be any different in fiction.

MFauli

Wed, 10-19-2022, 01:41 AM

Well... it's not like "the anime thinks" it can save it for later, because it absolutely can.
The question is why you need it to be explained right now to the point were you feel "frustrated" by it if you aren't getting your answer spoon fed.
It would add absolutely nothing to the show as of right now and whatever reason given later, if there even is one, could potentially enrich the way the story is or was told in hindsight.

I have no idea why it's so difficult for you to relate to his situation.
As if it's the first time some kid is being extorted even though "hE cOuLd hAvE gOnE tO tHe PoLiCE".

"why didn't the kid tell someone that she got raped by this dude, silly kid" - said no one ever in real life either. Or rather, only absolute idiots that have no idea about anything would say something like that.
So why should it be any different in fiction.

I'm not frustrated or upset about the anime. I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 10-19-2022, 02:55 AM

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".I think the issue here is that you are treating this as unrealistic, when, other than the devil thing, this is something that literally happens all the time in the real world.

Youths getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime organizations is a real thing that happens. So when your question is "Why don't they just do this?" my answer is to just point to those real-world instances and go "I dunno. Ask them I guess?"

Like, 9-times-out-of-10, the answer to "Why didn't you go to the police?" is "Because they said they'd kill me if I did and I believed them."

I mean, he spent most of his life living in a shack. It's not like he's watched a bunch of Law & Order.

I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.I mean, you put a question mark at the end of the sentence. That implies that you wanted an answer.

KrayZ33

Wed, 10-19-2022, 04:13 AM

I'm not frustrated or upset about the anime. I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.

Not mentally frustrated but frustrated by how it's handled in the show

(the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh)

like here for example.
The question itself isn't the problem, your frustration about it is, because it's completely "normal" for people to act like this.
So obviously you can't just criticize it with one sentence like that, because it's what we call "weltfremd"

"Just don't be oppressed, 4 head"

Buffalobiian

Wed, 10-19-2022, 06:12 AM

"I can tolerate crazy as long as they're hot"

That's youth speaking.

fireheart

Wed, 10-19-2022, 09:09 AM

I think the issue here is that you are treating this as unrealistic, when, other than the devil thing, this is something that literally happens all the time in the real world.

Youths getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime organizations is a real thing that happens. So when your question is "Why don't they just do this?" my answer is to just point to those real-world instances and go "I dunno. Ask them I guess?"

Like, 9-times-out-of-10, the answer to "Why didn't you go to the police?" is "Because they said they'd kill me if I did and I believed them."

I mean, he spent most of his life living in a shack. It's not like he's watched a bunch of Law & Order.

I mean, you put a question mark at the end of the sentence. That implies that you wanted an answer.

My personal opinion on Mfauli is that it seems he has a harder time with suspension of disbelief, which may or may not impact how much he enjoys whatever anime we discuss. Sometimes I think it's silly for whatever reason but I've had this issue with some shows as well for example 'Your lie in April'. It made the show worse for me since I couldn't just flip a switch to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in comparison to everyone else who seemed to have loved that show.

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.

Though I can close my eyes to it and just accept that it happened in this show to make Denji have a pitiful and sad background while giving him an excuse to be stupid/lacking. But if Mfauli never brought it up I wouldn't have thought about it at all and just accepted it and in turn never come to the conclusion that the issue isn't Denji, it's that the government didn't try to help him and was ok with an orphan living on the street right after their one and only guardian died.

Blaming it on Denji however is victim blaming, blaming all the people who should have helped and should have prevented a child from ending up in that situation however is fair game imo. And should something like this happen in a place like Japan it's 100% the government failing to help vulnerable children they should have been protecting.

MFauli

Wed, 10-19-2022, 09:38 AM

My personal opinion on Mfauli is that it seems he has a harder time with suspension of disbelief, which may or may not impact how much he enjoys whatever anime we discuss. Sometimes I think it's silly for whatever reason but I've had this issue with some shows as well for example 'Your lie in April'. It made the show worse for me since I couldn't just flip a switch to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in comparison to everyone else who seemed to have loved that show.

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.

Though I can close my eyes to it and just accept that it happened in this show to make Denji have a pitiful and sad background while giving him an excuse to be stupid/lacking. But if Mfauli never brought it up I wouldn't have thought about it at all and just accepted it and in turn never come to the conclusion that the issue isn't Denji, it's that the government didn't try to help him and was ok with an orphan living on the street right after their one and only guardian died.

Blaming it on Denji however is victim blaming, blaming all the people who should have helped and should have prevented a child from ending up in that situation however is fair game imo. And should something like this happen in a place like Japan it's 100% the government failing to help vulnerable children they should have been protecting.

Thank you for understanding my pov.

And as for the "lack of supsense of disbelief": I accept that most anime are stupid bs. When I watch Boku no Hero Academia, I don't expect anything smart, rational or thing of consequence. It's a super shallow shounen-container anime that gives an excuse to throw heroes and villains at each other.

But Chainsaw Man received so much hype, has this somewhat more realistic artstyle, the cool opening ... it all made me think "hey, this is gonna be one of those special anime that really won't rely on BS". And then I instantly am supposed to believe that the government left a little boy by himself. That this boy was okay with selling a kidney and a testicle? That wasn't what I had expected at all.

Now that I'm halfway back to "alright, this is typical shounen bs", but of relatively higher quality, I can enjoy it better. But to understand why I didn't like it immediately, I think that's a fair demand.

fireheart

Wed, 10-19-2022, 10:45 AM

Thank you for understanding my pov.

You're welcome, but do note while I agree with what you're trying to say I also disagree since you seem to think the onus is on Denji, which is as I said victim blaming and my impression is that it's the issue the others have with what you've been saying. It should imo be on the government to prevent something like that from happening, the responsibility is never on the children to seek out help first after their guardian dies.

Kraco

Wed, 10-19-2022, 10:53 AM

MFauli

Wed, 10-19-2022, 10:56 AM

You're welcome, but do note while I agree with what you're trying to say I also disagree since you seem to think the onus is on Denji, which is as I said victim blaming and my impression is that it's the issue the others have with what you've been saying. It should imo be on the government to prevent something like that from happening, the responsibility is never on the children to seek out help first after their guardian dies.

Huh? From my first reaction I've been criticizing why nobody helped young Denji. I THEN put the onus on adult Denji, because he just accepted the situation. And really, I still can't imagine a situation where a guy/boy would casually sell one of his balls. They should have shown a quick montage of the Mafia forcing him to that shit, would have helped a lot.

fireheart

Wed, 10-19-2022, 11:49 AM

Huh? From my first reaction I've been criticizing why nobody helped young Denji. I THEN put the onus on adult Denji, because he just accepted the situation. And really, I still can't imagine a situation where a guy/boy would casually sell one of his balls. They should have shown a quick montage of the Mafia forcing him to that shit, would have helped a lot.

In chronological order:

Why didn't he run away?

When I started watching this episode 1, I just kept thinking "why isn't he going to the police?", "why isn't he going to the government to be put in an institution for orphans?" and "why does he not run away? Yakuza won't be able to find some random kid".

(the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh)

The only one I see you putting the onus on someone else is the quote below, but even then it's not on the government but on random people and in the same post you still put onus on Denji.

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?"

It might not have been what you intended but if you look at the quotes it looks like you put 90-100% of the responsibility on Denji for being in a shitty situation from the start. Again I agree that it's hard to believe the situation he found himself in as a child with zero support, but I still think the onus was never on Denji regardless of what age he currently is in the anime because again it's been going on since he was a child and he's still the victim. I'm pretty sure he's suppose to still be a teen not an adult, an anime can't have an adult as the main protagonist (half sarcasm half serious).

Also have you never heard of the teen that sold his kidney to buy an iPhone/iPad? He was also quoted saying "Why do I need two kidneys? One is enough.". Finally selling organs is fairly standard threat from mobs in fiction when it comes to paying back debts.

David75

Wed, 10-19-2022, 11:57 AM

fireheart

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:08 PM

I wonder what Makima's truth really is. She said she expects Denji to work happily for the agency, and if he doesn't, he will be disposed of, period. On the other hand, if that was all she cared about, it's unlikely she would go out of her way to employ a half-devil and a fiend. While I do feel like she's very good at manipulating simpler people, like Denji, I can't help but feel she does want to blur the simple good-evil distinction most of the world likely subscribes to. Especially in Japan, it seems impossible her own reputation and future career wouldn't be damaged if her experimentations with the more dubious characters as hunters failed. Is she doing that out of pure goodwill or because she herself is already somehow compromised and doesn't have a choice? Her gentle but ruthless behavior could be explained by both alternatives.

Denji really is a simpleton, but his goals are very honest, haha.

Maybe I'm not reading enough into this but I think the lines were blurred from the start with contracted devils, since they're already using "evil" to eradicate "evil" from the start. Unless I missed any information about devil hunters who do not use any special powers at all or holy powers.

As for her reason it feels like she just want a usable tool, she might still sympathize with him but still a tool.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:11 PM

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.Human trafficking and "debt collection" are 2 rackets the yakuza are literally involved in. In modern japan.

Anime that portray Japan as a pristine place where things like that never happen are actually the ones being unrealistic.

Kraco

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:36 PM

I suspect Makima is not 100% human, for the simple reason she can smell devils.
As of yet I categorize her as a highly manipulative person. I'd like to be able to like her, but she's way too dangerous for that.

We don't really know yet if most of the hunters are just highly trained humans or something more. I'm happy Makima seems like a dangerous person because it would make sense for someone in her particular job, no matter if she was like that from the beginning or if she needed to become like that just to be able to keep going.

Maybe I'm not reading enough into this but I think the lines were blurred from the start with contracted devils, since they're already using "evil" to eradicate "evil" from the start. Unless I missed any information about devil hunters who do not use any special powers at all or holy powers.

As for her reason it feels like she just want a usable tool, she might still sympathize with him but still a tool.

There was that line that others in the organisation would like to shut down the experimental unit, so likely most aren't willing to go as far as Makima. There's still a difference between using weapons and being a weapon. In our reality, for example, human soldiers being equipped with weapons, even remote controlled, versus an autonomous system independently going out and killing people, without relying on any human judgement beyond the initial programming. It's probably worse in this series' world because it would be like relying on the very enemies. The line might have been blurred, yes, but I get a feeling Makima is trying to blur it much more than anyone before her.

fireheart

Wed, 10-19-2022, 12:58 PM

Human trafficking and "debt collection" are 2 rackets the yakuza are literally involved in. In modern japan.

Anime that portray Japan as a pristine place where things like that never happen are actually the ones being unrealistic.

But I haven't said that these thing don't happen? When I thought about what Mfauli was saying my issue is again a child who recently became an orphan and the government doesn't do anything to provide any kind of support, put the kid in an orphanage or foster home. These crime existing and Yakuza doing these things do not contradict my point and I hope you're able to see this.

The way it's been depicted in the anime so far isn't realistic to me.
1. Guardian dies while in debt (believable)
2. Government doesn't do anything to put an orphan in an orphanage or foster home (hard to believe)
3. Child doesn't even go to school (according to David75) despite elementary school being compulsory and this doesn't trigger anything in any system (hard to believe)
4. Yakuza tells the child they have to shoulder the debt (believable)
5. Leaves the kid to do whatever he wants (hard to believe/maybe, I don't know)

So the things that don't make sense imo is point 2, 3 and 5.
It'd make sense if
1. Denji was kidnapped by the Yakuza to shoulder the debt and work it off (previous point 5 counters this)
2. His parents were illegal immigrants and therefor they and him are not on any records (No way that happen in an anime)
3. Denji ran away from the orphanage/foster home (Does happen, but no one seems to even hint at that or his history so far)

Again please note that I'm not saying that the type of crime you explained does not exist, they do and you'd be silly to think these things don't happen. But you might think I'm naive for actually believing in the government would do something to actually protect a child that just became an orphan. I find it hard that they just threw his file in the trash and called it a day, in modern society there should still be records of him.

So I hope this makes it clear my issue isn't the crimes, it's that the government didn't do anything when he became an orphan and that to me that's hard to believe.

There was that line that others in the organisation would like to shut down the experimental unit, so likely most aren't willing to go as far as Makima. There's still a difference between using weapons and being a weapon. In our reality, for example, human soldiers being equipped with weapons, even remote controlled, versus an autonomous system independently going out and killing people, without relying on any human judgement beyond the initial programming. It's probably worse in this series' world because it would be like relying on the very enemies. The line might have been blurred, yes, but I get a feeling Makima is trying to blur it much more than anyone before her.

This does makes sense and the comparison as well but it's hard to see the difference since it's still blurred from the start. If contracted devils exists why can't they just do a contract with a fiend of half devil? I don't know if she's trying to blur it even more, I don't really see what she would win from it or what the end game of that would be. In the end I think she just want stronger pieces she can move around or just want ways to empower themselves even more since contracted devils are bound to have limits. But I'd be happy to be wrong and see her have a grander plan in motion.

Kraco

Wed, 10-19-2022, 01:13 PM

This does makes sense and the comparison as well but it's hard to see the difference since it's still blurred from the start. If contracted devils exists why can't they just do a contract with a fiend of half devil? I don't know if she's trying to blur it even more, I don't really see what she would win from it or what the end game of that would be. In the end I think she just want stronger pieces she can move around or just want ways to empower themselves even more since contracted devils are bound to have limits. But I'd be happy to be wrong and see her have a grander plan in motion.

That's essentially what I was wondering about: what's her deal in all of this. Like David said, she seems pretty dangerous, and she should be in such a job, so she must have a really good reason for doing what others apparently aren't willing to do. If she's not quite human herself, maybe she has got her own (literal) deadline as well. In the end she was very, very quick to adopt Denji into her unit, without even knowing his name before making the decision.

But yeah, it is possible she's not trying to blur it more if she has got a more pressing reason, such as her own, or her friend/relative's, head rolling if the experimental unit doesn't work.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-19-2022, 05:23 PM

5. Leaves the kid to do whatever he wants (hard to believe/maybe, I don't know)

In episode 1, the yakuza boss drove off after saying that if Denji runs, he will kill him and sell his organs. He wasn't "left to do whatever he wants" because they can easily find him, at least that is what both Denji and the yakuza believe. Even after he got Pochita, both parties still believed this to be true.

MFauli

Wed, 10-19-2022, 09:01 PM

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-19-2022, 09:17 PM

Someone being? We weren't shown anyone to be in contact with the younger Denji other than the yakuza. The burial and the grave may as well have been handled by the yakuza to make sure they can trick Denji into paying his dad's debt, which he isn't legally liable to do. Denji didn't go to school, so he has no friends or teachers to reach out to. Basically, Denji is an uneducated, dumb recluse who only knows his dad and the yakuza as authority figures, so he believed them.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 10-20-2022, 12:04 AM

The way it's been depicted in the anime so far isn't realistic to me.
1. Guardian dies while in debt (believable)
2. Government doesn't do anything to put an orphan in an orphanage or foster home (hard to believe)
3. Child doesn't even go to school (according to David75) despite elementary school being compulsory and this doesn't trigger anything in any system (hard to believe)
4. Yakuza tells the child they have to shoulder the debt (believable)
5. Leaves the kid to do whatever he wants (hard to believe/maybe, I don't know)We don't really know anything about his dad and his involvement with the yakuza.

For all we know, his dad was a transient under the yakuza's thumb just like he is. A homeless person's kid might not even be in the system in the first place. In which case, the government might not even know there's a kid that needed to be taken into custody.

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 04:23 AM

In episode 1, the yakuza boss drove off after saying that if Denji runs, he will kill him and sell his organs. He wasn't "left to do whatever he wants" because they can easily find him, at least that is what both Denji and the yakuza believe. Even after he got Pochita, both parties still believed this to be true.

Well I exaggerated but I didn't mean it in a he could have run away, if my posts haven't been clear I never blamed Denji for his situation nor do I blame him not trying to get out of it and I do find it believable that he doesn't run away. One of the things I liked in the first episode is seeing glimpses of his frustration and resignation that this is his life, it made him very humane to me.

But in my mind if a criminal organization took a kid they wouldn't just tell him to get the money rather they'd put him to work maybe by have him smuggling or sell his body (not literally) or something. Instead we see them tell him to get the money and leave him to his own devices, regardless of how easy he is to find it felt weird to me. I mean it's not completely unbelievable hence why I added "maybe, I don't know" but in my imagination of organized crime it just doesn't make sense for them to not put him to work. Yes he found work as a devil hunter afterwards but he found that not them.

We don't really know anything about his dad and his involvement with the yakuza.

For all we know, his dad was a transient under the yakuza's thumb just like he is. A homeless person's kid might not even be in the system in the first place. In which case, the government might not even know there's a kid that needed to be taken into custody.

I see this as us being in agreement, with the things Mfauli has brought up there is a blank in the show so far in regards to how it was possible for this to happen and we're both filling it up with conjectures. It might be as you said or it might also have been one of the situations I mentioned but the show hasn't given us anything and will probably never adress this but that doesn't mean there isn't a blank.

But yeah, it is possible she's not trying to blur it more if she has got a more pressing reason, such as her own, or her friend/relative's, head rolling if the experimental unit doesn't work.

Thinking about it a bit there's bound to be a big bad guy in the show like every other show, so it might just be that Makina is aware of it and think that having Denji on her side increases their chances of winning same with Power. Though there's no information of this and just going of what I'd expect from a shounen show. I don't remember why Gojo was so quick to accept Yuuji in Jujutsu Kaisen or if they even talked about it, but surmise it's probably similar reasons.

MFauli

Thu, 10-20-2022, 06:21 AM

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 07:32 AM

Had episode 2 shown us some crazy fantasy world, I wouldn't have bothered thinking about Denji's past anymore. Instead, we got to see realistic, modern day Japan PLUS that one fantasy element. So that exacerbated my negative reaction to how Denji could possibly have ended up the way he did.

Actually, the show hasn't shown us any shit worth thinking about in that regard.
We know nothing about the society they live in.
In the first place, they are recruiting unstable demon-like beings to fight demons (fire with fire), they might as well recruit kids fighting demons if they have the ability to do so, for all we know.
I don't know/can't remember if it was mentioned how old Power and Denji are for example... or if anyone even cares about that.

At this point we/you are still assuming everything is "normal" aside from demons walking around.

MFauli

Thu, 10-20-2022, 07:40 AM

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 07:54 AM

Ok, we know nothing, but I'm wrong. Gotcha.

...

Seems like you didn't understand anything at all, actually, if that's what you got out of that. Lol.

....
Mod: Please keep it civil, thank you.

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 08:14 AM

Actually, the show hasn't shown us any shit worth thinking about in that regard.
We know nothing about the society they live in.
In the first place, they are recruiting unstable demon like beings to fight demons, they might as well recruit kids fighting demons.
I don't know/can't remember if it was mentioned how old Power and Denji are for example.

At this point we/you are still assuming everything is "normal" aside from demons walking around.

That's not true though, the show has clearly shown that society is built on our regular modern society simply by the fact that a lot of what we'd expect from a modern society exists. While we haven't seen how society differs from what we expect from a modern society that doesn't mean Mfaulis points are moot, though I still disagree with some of his points.

Anyway on to how I interpret his point, hopefully we all agree that we don't expect there to be things that we(I) expect in a modern society like insurance regardless if they show/talk about it or not in a show like Attack on Titan, Naruto or One Piece. I do expect it to exists in shows like Jujutsu Kaisen, Bleach, FSN because the base world is obviously a modern world Japan. This usually doesn't matter but in this case the main protagonists whole background basically hinges on the fact that there's either no records in any governmental institute of him or they didn't care about him. I would again like to point out this isn't an issue for me but I can see that Mfauli has a point in this regard at least, though I probably added to his argument.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 08:26 AM

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 08:53 AM

I have no idea why you think in a world, where death is around every corner as is shown by the existence of devils on the streets, society would behave and work the same as in a country where you can life in peace and not fear for your life every second.
Does the police have special powers?
Does the goverment enact special laws?
Are kids taken care for normally or are orphans used by the state to fight demons for example?
How old is Denji. At what age are people allowed to work for the goverment? (In real life and in this show)
What else?

I could turn that list 100 pages long. Again - we/you are just assuming everything is the same, when there isn't much yet to suggest either side of the coin.

Denji is literally a death-row convict that can only life if he is willing to fight demons.
His rights as a human being were taken away from him right before our eyes and you are telling me society is the same?

Actually yes, even more so. In a world with so much chaos for the world and death around every corner to look so much like our own I expect the government to have a pretty good handle on things so that it doesn't fall to anarchy/ruin. I could ask instead why you don't think the government would have things together when it looks like society is pretty well functioning minus the devils.

I have no idea if the police have special powers, they might and it's within reason imo since there could be either former devil hunters who transferred or someone that made a contract with a devil.

The government probably has special laws in accordance to devils, but that only means the only difference you can say right now is devils and the impact they have on society. In fact it'd probably be an even bigger issue in this world to take care of all the orphans because of the devils.

I have no idea if orphans are regularly used or not but again based on what's shown nothing indicates that this isn't based on modern Japan and with that as the baseline I expect there to be some kind of care for orphans. Why don't you expect there to be?

No idea how old Denji is, I suspect he's a teenager simply because it's anime. Better question would be asking about Aki instead since he's obviously more of a norm while Denji is obviously more of an exception.

Regarding Denji literally being a death-row convict, yes I still think society is largely the same. Simply because what you're describing is still just devils and their potential impact to how our society would change.

I don't expect it to be exactly the same if that's what you're thinking since obviously the public existence of devils changes things. But it's within reason to expect it to be mostly the same minus what you're able to imagine from something like devils existing.

Yuuji from Jujutsu Kaisen and Denji has a lot in common in terms of circumstances, they're both part human part curse/devil and they're both being monitored and both on death row etc etc.
However Yuujis backstory and circumstances isn't dependent on the government being incompetent.

You're currently coming at me as if the fact that I expect the government to not be a totally incompetent to be such a controversial opinion and that it's stupid to even entertain that it might manage something so basic as child protection for orphans in a world where there's probably more orphans in first world countries compared to in reality.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 10:30 AM

my point is not that all this couldn't be just a normal town or country like today, my point is that it's not decisively so and that we know and have, so far, seen very little happening about that kind of worldbuildig

I have no idea if orphans are regularly used or not but again based on what's shown nothing indicates that this isn't based on modern Japan and with that as the baseline I expect there to be some kind of care for orphans. Why don't you expect there to be?

Because devils exist and they are exeptionally dangerous and you need people to fight them willingly?
But yeah, the point is that we don't know. For some reason a kid without a family gets to be the buddy of another kid without a family that now both fight Devils for different reasons. That could hint at something or couls simply be a fluke.

Regarding Denji literally being a death-row convict, yes I still think society is largely the same. Simply because what you're describing is still just devils and their potential impact to how our society would change.

So would be a goverment no longer prioritizing compulsory education, especially when they are Yakuza. Either way, Denji not going to school is irregular in in that universe. It's just a matter of how they've done it. Considering even in Germany, where it's actually *illegal* not to send your kid to school, kids being homeschooled illegaly here is already a point to be made that this itself could be one such case, considering the enviroment he grew up in.

The government probably has special laws in accordance to devils, but that only means the only difference you can say right now is devils and the impact they have on society. In fact it'd probably be an even bigger issue in this world to take care of all the orphans because of the devils.

And just about everything else is unknown other that people go to work and that people still live in cities and that the goverment is keeping things in order more or less.
Considering that Devils are also part of the school curriculum already means it has an impact on education as well, obviously it does, but it just doesn't mean that nothing negative could have possibly happened in that regard.

I'm no expert on homeschooling but who's to say this wasn't "done" here.
Afaik Japan doesn't allow this or it's basically non existent for japanese children, not for foreign children though as they are not required to send their kids to school. Depending on the country, sometimes there aren't even any checks regarding education, or even worse, you don't even have to tell the goverment that you are homeschooling your kids.

You could obviously spin this further and further but that's not the point.
The point is that assuming everything is normal or the same even though we have hardly any background information about anything, especially not in the first episode, which looked like the whole world is a desolate place with hardly anyone around (which itself is saying something as well btw.), is a one sided point of view.
And even in this episode the scenes didn't feel like Japan to me at all, at least not the same Japan I see in other anime.
The very old-schoolish western goverment building being the weirdest one of it all.
I'm getting cold-war vibes more so than I'm getting Japan in 2020 vibes.

Right now, I can't even tell if we've seen an electronical device... I might have missed it though.
At first I thought it was weird that someone in this day and age would use a telephone booth to call in an emergency.... but then I saw on youtube that these things actually ARE used for exactly that, calling in emergencies during earthquakes and stuff like that.
Yet at the same time, there are zeppelins flying above. I've never even seen one in real life flying.

And btw: https://i.imgur.com/20bkbTm.png

Try to find a living person in that scene (not my picture, rewatch it Episode 1 - 15:19)
Does this look like a normal town to you in that scene?

Buffalobiian

Thu, 10-20-2022, 10:36 AM

Jujutsu Kaisen is different to this.

That episode has the Lawful Good fraction looking for a demonic presence. They run into the main character who is a teenager with a Grandpa who taught him right and has friends. That teenager got caught up in the supernatural shit. He gets immediately evaluated by his caretaker, and the MC demonstrates that he (kind of) has full control over going berserk because he shuts down his inner demon at will. The caretaker also takes the MC in because they are confident that they'll beat the shit out of it if it runs berserk anyway. They're also using the MC as a tracker/magnet/vault for related supernatural shit. The MC's drive is established quite early on as aiming to dispel his unfortunate supernatural circumstance.

This show is about a guy who owns a demonic pet, lives in a shack, and has been influenced by yukuza into paying his dad's debt with no apparent external help at all. He tells us in these last two episodes that when he does meet people they are repulsed by his unkempt state. He turned into a supernatural fusion being and killed a bunch of things. Now a caretaker with unclear motives takes him in. The MC's drive is jam-on-bread and boobs.

Both shows have an MC that encounters the supernatural, becomes tied up with it and joins an apparently lawful-good agency for reasons. Denji's "less ideal circumstances" vs Yuuji's makes sense given the difference in their premise.

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 11:20 AM

I'm getting cold-war vibes more so than I'm getting Japan in 2020 vibes.

Right now, I can't even tell if we've seen an electronical device... I might have missed it though.
At first I thought it was weird that someone in this day and age would use a telephone booth to call in an emergency.... but then I saw on youtube that these things actually ARE used for exactly that, calling in emergencies during earthquakes and stuff like that.
Yet at the same time, there are zeppelins flying above. I've never even seen one in real life flying.

I hadn't thought about if I've seen an electronic device, computers or smartphones and if these things are nonexistent it makes it a lot more believable for me that no one knew about Denji/government not doing anything.

Spoiler?
I actually googled it since you said it gave you cold-war vibes and the story takes place in the 90s so it makes more sense to me that they missed taking care of him. Anyway I stand corrected, you were right with your observation and it's not actually weird anymore.

Both shows have an MC that encounters the supernatural, becomes tied up with it and joins an apparently lawful-good agency for reasons. Denji's "less ideal circumstances" vs Yuuji's makes sense given the difference in their premise.

They have a lot of surface level similarities, if you check deeper obviously there's going to be differences but it doesn't make my statement that they're both part human part curse/devil and they're both being monitored and both on death row any less true.

Buffalobiian

Thu, 10-20-2022, 11:40 AM

I
They have a lot of surface level similarities, if you check deeper obviously there's going to be differences but it doesn't make my statement that they're both part human part curse/devil and they're both being monitored and both on death row any less true.

The similarities you listed in the above is true. Also both are MAPPA shows.

I was specifically replying to this bit, and hence why I broke down character motivations and circumstances being the differentiating factor going forward:

Thinking about it a bit there's bound to be a big bad guy in the show like every other show, so it might just be that Makina is aware of it and think that having Denji on her side increases their chances of winning same with Power. Though there's no information of this and just going of what I'd expect from a shounen show. I don't remember why Gojo was so quick to accept Yuuji in Jujutsu Kaisen or if they even talked about it, but surmise it's probably similar reasons.

MFauli

Thu, 10-20-2022, 12:03 PM

my point is not that all this couldn't be just a normal town or country like today, my point is that it's not decisively so and that we know and have, so far, seen very little happening about that kind of worldbuildig

And yet your and others' first reaction to MY interpretation was "you're wrong".

What you should have reacted with instead: "Hm, maybe, but this is what I think: blablalbla".

Why must it always be worded as an attack against me? Really sucks, sorry.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 12:17 PM

And yet your and others' first reaction to MY interpretation was "you're wrong".

What you should have reacted with instead: "Hm, maybe, but this is what I think: blablalbla".

Why must it always be worded as an attack against me? Really sucks, sorry.

Maybe you should just actually read what you have written and what I have written. Maybe then you would actually understand that I didn't even say "you are wrong". I said completely different things.
Again, stop it with your "I'm a victim"-lyre.

Just read the stuff again, your stuff too. Point me to the moment I said "you are wrong" and when you found it, rewatch the scene and think again as to why asking the question "why didn't he stay in the trash bin?" is wrong.

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 01:09 PM

The similarities you listed in the above is true. Also both are MAPPA shows.

I was specifically replying to this bit, and hence why I broke down character motivations and circumstances being the differentiating factor going forward:

Thanks for clarifying what you were replying to, while I do agree I'm not sure how much the main characters individual differences will play out in terms of Gojo/Makina. Though I still lean towards Makina just using both Denji and Power for their strength but didn't want to dismiss the idea that she and Gojo could have had the same reasons.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 10-20-2022, 01:24 PM

I see this as us being in agreement, with the things Mfauli has brought up there is a blank in the show so far in regards to how it was possible for this to happen and we're both filling it up with conjectures. It might be as you said or it might also have been one of the situations I mentioned but the show hasn't given us anything and will probably never adress this but that doesn't mean there isn't a blank.There is a blank, but even with that blank in place, I still wouldn't describe his situation as "unbelievable" or "unrealistic". Not when there are real-world examples that can account for his situation.

Jujutsu Kaisen is different to this.I'd say the biggest difference between Jujutsu Kaisen and this is that the monsters in this are public knowledge. Which is a single difference that would have an ENORMOUS impact on the setting.

There's a huge difference between a secret organization hunting secret monsters. And everyone knowing there's monsters and people know about the department that hunts them.

JK is Men In Black. CM is Ghostbusters.

Kraco

Thu, 10-20-2022, 01:34 PM

Well I exaggerated but I didn't mean it in a he could have run away, if my posts haven't been clear I never blamed Denji for his situation nor do I blame him not trying to get out of it and I do find it believable that he doesn't run away. One of the things I liked in the first episode is seeing glimpses of his frustration and resignation that this is his life, it made him very humane to me.

But in my mind if a criminal organization took a kid they wouldn't just tell him to get the money rather they'd put him to work maybe by have him smuggling or sell his body (not literally) or something. Instead we see them tell him to get the money and leave him to his own devices, regardless of how easy he is to find it felt weird to me. I mean it's not completely unbelievable hence why I added "maybe, I don't know" but in my imagination of organized crime it just doesn't make sense for them to not put him to work. Yes he found work as a devil hunter afterwards but he found that not them.

Didn't the mafioso tell Denji that he never liked him, on a fundamental basis, just before the other dude stabbed him in the back? I'd say that would explain sufficiently the reason why Denji was kept living as he did. Basically, the mafioso always hated Denji, and likely had wanted to kill him for a very long time, but as long as he needed to run his little gang, he did put Denji to work as an asset, but most likely he would have been quite happy if some demon had killed Denji. More importantly, he hated Denji for Denji being like he was: a faitful dog who never tried to fight back, never tried to run, was even willing to sell his own organs, accepted without a complaint the absurd reductions in the rewards. The mafioso hated such a man, yet because of it he knew Denji would never run away, so it didn't much matter if there was seemingly no leash. It allowed him to contact Denji whenever he wanted, but he also didn't need to see Denji too often, except for the occasional jobs.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 10-20-2022, 01:39 PM

Didn't the mafioso tell Denji that he never liked him, on a fundamental basis, just before the other dude stabbed him in the back?Weren't both of those guys already zombies at that point?

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-20-2022, 02:05 PM

Weren't both of those guys already zombies at that point?

Difficult to know when the old guy turned Zombie.
They probably were, as they zombified as a group, not as individuals. (otherwise they would've realised that they is no benefit from making the deal with the devil)
I think the show could have shown it better though.

Or maybe the old Yakuza guy got really depressive in the end and was the last real Yakuza alive, already realising that they "made a deal with the devil" for a false promise and realized he couldn't escape from it.
After all, we don't really know if you can break a contract with a devil or if the devil can break it himself.
Good boy-devil doggo Pochita did sacrifice himself... and while I'm sure he did it happily, the deal he made with kid Denji was that he must help him out because "he doesn't want to die".

fireheart

Thu, 10-20-2022, 02:36 PM

There is a blank, but even with that blank in place, I still wouldn't describe his situation as "unbelievable" or "unrealistic". Not when there are real-world examples that can account for his situation.

Since we're in agreement about there being a blank there's no real reason to keep going, I've said my piece that I think Mfauli had a point and highlighted which parts of what's shown was hard for me to believe after considering his claims. We both gave real-world examples of how someone could end up outside the system but it's was still just conjecture and not necessarily correct. Simply put Mfauli isn't wrong for questioning how Denji ended up in such a situation since the show didn't adress it.

Didn't the mafioso tell Denji that he never liked him, on a fundamental basis, just before the other dude stabbed him in the back? I'd say that would explain sufficiently the reason why Denji was kept living as he did. Basically, the mafioso always hated Denji, and likely had wanted to kill him for a very long time, but as long as he needed to run his little gang, he did put Denji to work as an asset, but most likely he would have been quite happy if some demon had killed Denji. More importantly, he hated Denji for Denji being like he was: a faitful dog who never tried to fight back, never tried to run, was even willing to sell his own organs, accepted without a complaint the absurd reductions in the rewards. The mafioso hated such a man, yet because of it he knew Denji would never run away, so it didn't much matter if there was seemingly no leash. It allowed him to contact Denji whenever he wanted, but he also didn't need to see Denji too often, except for the occasional jobs.

Sure I buy this, but I'm not sure what you're trying to adress. That I don't think it's Denjis fault or that they didn't put him to work? If it's the latter then I'm not sure how much it of it applies to child Denji since it seems to more reflect his current state. You could say that even when he was a kid he knew he wouldn't run away but I still don't see why they didn't put him to work right away.

Kraco

Thu, 10-20-2022, 11:04 PM

You could say that even when he was a kid he knew he wouldn't run away but I still don't see why they didn't put him to work right away.

Didn't they? I actually find it hard to believe they wouldn't have. Who knows what kind of work it would have been, as we didn't see it, but considering how absolutely ruthless the mafia was, it's difficult to imagine they wouldn't have made Denji earn every single morsel needed to stay alive. He probably needed to hunt devils from very early on. If I had to guess, the mafia already disliked Denji's old man, and Denji not only inherited the debt but also the contempt.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-21-2022, 02:14 AM

Kiryu woulda beat the shit out of this mafia.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-21-2022, 04:07 AM

This series is just really not clicking for me.

I get a sense of what they're doing with the story, this sorta feels like the Shoplifters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoplifters_(film)) of shonen anime. Rare focus on the downtrodden and abused social strata.

It's not really enjoyable watching Denji get dragged around from one self-serving group to another because he's too ignorant to notice that he's being used. I guess that is "the point," but if I want that kinda narrative, American media is loaded with those stories. Better told at this point in the story too.

You can immediately tell Makima's angle, she admitted it to the audience while it flew over Denji's head. And she clocked him as an easy mark by being even remotely kind to him. Manipulative Women People 101. Denji only sees it as a fair trade, continuing what he was already doing with a higher standard of living that he's had in forever, but it's very obviously not the case from the organization's perspective.

It's also annoying seeing everyone criticize Denji for not taking it seriously. He's done devil hunting as fulfilling the very bottom of Maslow's Needs for himself, and never really experienced any of the parts above it (aside from maybe affection for Pochita). They hunt devils for revenge or the safety of others. Denji has been doing it for survival and still barely making it. He's gotten skilled by necessity, they've gotten skilled by duty. Fire Force definitely handled the balance of duty and care a lot better.

I'll give this one more episode, but currently, I'm ready to drop this series. It's not living up to the disgusting amount of hype it got. It's fine, but it isn't holding my interest since I'm usually getting around to it days later.

fireheart

Fri, 10-21-2022, 05:06 AM

Didn't they? I actually find it hard to believe they wouldn't have. Who knows what kind of work it would have been, as we didn't see it, but considering how absolutely ruthless the mafia was, it's difficult to imagine they wouldn't have made Denji earn every single morsel needed to stay alive. He probably needed to hunt devils from very early on. If I had to guess, the mafia already disliked Denji's old man, and Denji not only inherited the debt but also the contempt.

They might have it's not shown what plans they had for child Denji. The only thing we got to see was them roll up to him tell him to pay off the monthly interest by tomorrow, that they don't care how he does it, just get it done or we chop you up and sell the pieces and then they leave. Hence why I feel they just left him to his own devices instead of putting him to work which didn't make sense to me.

Kiryu woulda beat the shit out of this mafia.

Yes he would... eventually after he's collected enough plushies, belted out at the karaoke and dropped kicked some devils.

MFauli

Fri, 10-21-2022, 05:47 AM

It's not living up to the disgusting amount of hype it got.

This really seems to be this anime biggest problem right now. The obscene hype it received prior to airing. Like, everyone was like "THIS IS THE MUST WATCH!!!1". Turns out it's okay, maybe will become great, but it's certainly not for everyone and it didn't exactly have an explosive start.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-21-2022, 06:17 AM

This really seems to be this anime biggest problem right now. The obscene hype it received prior to airing. Like, everyone was like "THIS IS THE MUST WATCH!!!1". Turns out it's okay, maybe will become great, but it's certainly not for everyone and it didn't exactly have an explosive start.

Same issues that I have with Kaguya and Komi-san. I'm just on the other side of the fence, since arguably Kage no Jitsuryokusha ni Naritakute and Spy x Family have the same problem.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-21-2022, 07:19 AM

I just don't pay attention to hype so I go in blind into what I watch, unless of course I have read the source material.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-21-2022, 07:31 AM

I just don't pay attention to hype so I go in blind into what I watch, unless of course I have read the source material.

Difficult to not notice or even ignore how much this one was getting. The first teaser dropped and flurries of videos and posts were everywhere even remotely related to anime and manga.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-21-2022, 07:45 AM

Where do you guys see these trailers and stuff? I don't have any social media accounts, so I would've missed those if they were there.

fireheart

Fri, 10-21-2022, 07:54 AM

I also seen nothing and only heard about there being hype for this show through the fall anime thread. Honestly didn't even know what the show was about in the first place, for some reason I thought it was a guy becoming a chainsaw man after getting dumped or something and being all edgy fighting I don't know what. So the show is a lot different from what I expected though I'll still drop it since I'm not in the mood for this kind of show.

Also the only reason I even watched it is because several people mentioned it in the upcoming fall anime thread.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 10-21-2022, 08:03 AM

I like this a lot. I love downtrodden protagonists rising up from their low station, so these past 2 episodes have been a welcome surprise to me. I particularly liked the ball busting of the Sasuke-archtype.

Kraco

Fri, 10-21-2022, 08:39 AM

The only reason I suspected this might have a bit of hype is because I saw a significant amount of fanart before the anime adaptation was made, not only after. Other than that, I wouldn't really know since I don't particularly follow anime news anywhere. I feel like I'm most of the time quite late learning when a manga I like gets an anime announced. Especially nowadays when Mangadex doesn't have a comment section anymore. I learned about a few anime from there, from people who obviously follow the scene better than I do.

Nevertheless, I still don't know if this series is supposed to be "big" or just another a little bit popular title.

KrayZ33

Fri, 10-21-2022, 08:53 AM

I watch trailers on youtube if they show up and are in my feed, and Anichart - I use them to get a first glance in terms of animation, which is always a strong tell if a show is trash or not.
Video titles with moon-runes catch my eye and when they look good, I'm hyped/interested.
I don't know much about hype trains being formed around a show though, those are usually for netflix shows and show up on Youtube very often then. This didn't happen for Chainsaw man though.

I get my anime from this forum as well as ani-chart (to see what is airing in the first place), which means I'm not active in any anime community, other than this one of course.
If someone is however, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Chainsaw got hyped over there though

MFauli

Fri, 10-21-2022, 09:37 AM

Where do you guys see these trailers and stuff? I don't have any social media accounts, so I would've missed those if they were there.

It starts with TrashTaste on Youtube, then some other anime youtubers, then Tweets, then everyone somehow is talking about "omg, finally Chainsaw Man, the wait was so long, this is gonna be gud!!1", plus the usual toxicity a la "dude, you're insane if you don't watch this". And then the anime airs.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-21-2022, 10:33 AM

Hell, even the Sad Cat Dance meme and its various redraws.

MAL, AniDB, ANN, youtube, you name it, the hype for this was pervasive.

edit:
Even reading unrelated manga on MangaPlus, it sneaks into the chapter comments.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-21-2022, 11:22 AM

Yeah, people have been raving about the manga for awhile now. So it makes sense the anime would be hyped.

This really seems to be this anime biggest problem right now. The obscene hype it received prior to airing. Like, everyone was like "THIS IS THE MUST WATCH!!!1". Turns out it's okay, maybe will become great, but it's certainly not for everyone and it didn't exactly have an explosive start.I mean...we're on episode 2 here people.

I would have said the exact same thing about, say, Demon Slayer or Jujutsu Kaisen.

neflight86

Fri, 10-21-2022, 11:28 AM

My hype came from reading the manga and seeing this was being adapted by, what looked like, the same MAPPA team that did Jujutsu Kaisen. I have also come to appreciate and value anime that has a unique feel to it in a sea of paint by numbers isekai/fantasy, and so far this is great for me. Makes sense it isn't for everyone, but I expect it will be something worth watching, at the least, if you stick with it.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-21-2022, 01:37 PM

I mean...we're on episode 2 here people.

I would have said the exact same thing about, say, Demon Slayer or Jujutsu Kaisen.
I'm not slamming the series or claiming it is overrated. It does interesting things thematically and narratively, but not hooking me. It is getting the three-episode test like I said I would from the preview thread.

I just don't expect it to pass.

It's different when you're not watching the first episode the same day. The hype got more severe, like everyone praising the OP as the most innovative and amazing OP ever. Which like...no. It has film references in it. Cool. Moving on.

Jujutsu Kaisen has no hook either and I've never given a single shit about that series despite its huge prominence in Japan. Demon Slayer had a hook in that it proceeds on realistic time frames, then compounded by revealing a setting twist of being Taishō era after leading on in the first episodes that it was set further back, which was enough.

There's some really over-inflated hyped series out there, especially ones that aren't even action-shonen. But Chainsaw Man isn't overrated. It meets expectations.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 10-22-2022, 02:49 AM

I don't discuss anime elsewhere and youtube doesn't give me trailers.

I see a picture on AniChart and decide on if I like that picture (and the studio/description I guess), or if someone here tells me something is good and I trust their judgement then I watch it.

So.. I knew some were looking forward to Chainsaw Man, but that's about it.

MFauli

Sat, 10-22-2022, 04:14 AM

Thing is: AniChart puts the most hyped anime first, so that's how you know, too :P

David75

Sat, 10-22-2022, 05:51 AM

I sort with countdown or airdate... no hype

Kraco

Tue, 10-25-2022, 01:29 PM

Episode 3

-- -- - --

This was a pretty good episode. I appreciate how the characters do have their own personalities, how devils are like devils, not just humans with cosmetic horns or whatever. Power is clearly different from a human. A sociopath could be somewhat similar, but I'm sure there are still differences beyond that. One interesting thing is that the devils possibly understand each other much worse than they understand humans. It has to be because they normally have no use for each other but need to be able to read their prey to some extent.

I wonder if the cat is still alive. I guess not, which means Denji won't get to cop a feel.

MFauli

Tue, 10-25-2022, 08:03 PM

You know, I will be furious if Power-chan is being forgiven the fact that she was serious about sacrificing Denji to save her cat with a slap on the wrist or some mild bs.

That aside, I'm fully in with this anime and the entire episode was fun to watch. I'm really looking forward to next week. If this keeps getting better at the current rate, it might end up living up to the initial hype after all.

Btw is that anime made by Studio Orange? Not only does it have 3d-aimation that's rather good, the opening song also reminds me of Beastars' style.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-25-2022, 09:55 PM

Okay, the idea that "every devil has a thing associated with it, and the more frightened people are of that thing, the more powerful the devil is" is an interesting hook. Reminds me of Fables.

Chainsaw Devil and Blood Devil should both be pretty strong. I woulda though Zombie Devil woulda been a lot stronger though.

Too bad for Bat Devil this was written pre-covid...

shinta|hikari

Tue, 10-25-2022, 10:00 PM

Zombie Devil was hella strong, but it wasn't a fiend. A fiend is a level higher than devils (because why else would they want to be fiends). And Denji is an even rarer creature, a human with the heart of a devil. I bet that zombie devil could've made short work of Power or Dollar-Sasuke. Those two shit on Denji because they have no idea what his chainsaw form is capable of. Makima does.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 10-25-2022, 10:17 PM

I bet that zombie devil could've made short work of Power or Dollar-Sasuke.Not sure why you think Power is that weak.

That reminds me, why IS Discount Sasuke in the reject squad? What's his deal. He must have one.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 10-25-2022, 11:03 PM

Because Power could've rescued her cat if she were strong, but she didn't.

Dollarsuke was saved by Makima, that's the reason he's in her squad.

David75

Wed, 10-26-2022, 01:40 AM

So Denji is at the top of the power curve for the moment ? Save Makima we don't know much about ?
That bat devil is right to be surprised by Denji's power density. After all he loves and throws that car like a peble...
Also he let that devil mess his body as if it's not a problem at all.
Like he's on a another level... Because he recovers so fast.

With what we've seen, although Denji was very skilled at managing devils, he was just human and Pochita didn't seem that powerful. Yet the combo feels insanely OP.

Or it's just an intro phase. After all Makima thinks of Denji as interresting. So my guess is that far more powerful beings will start to pop up

Kraco

Wed, 10-26-2022, 03:20 AM

The board meeting with Makima and the geezers was quite interesting. It's quite clear this experiment with devils/fiends, and anything else Makima finds intriguing, has a much deeper political meaning. Japan doesn't want to officially, transparently, be found experimenting with weaponising devils, so they are doing it like this, in a sort of law enforcement form, which is much softer, superficially, than a military unit. Yet if hostile countries are doing it, Japan can't fall hopelessly behind. Bureaucratically this experimental unit is detached from pretty much everything, by the looks of it, which does give Makima a lot of freedom, but it also means the government can wash its hands of the whole thing very quickly if something happens and deny anything big was ever going on. I'd say this explains how Makima so offhandedly told Denji that if he doesn't work properly in the unit, he will be exterminated as a devil.

Looking at the very beginning of this episode, I'd say Makima is only concerned about the public image of her unit, so the line is drawn at anything that attracts public attention. Whatever goes on inside the unit probably doesn't matter as much, including Power behaving like a traitor here. Of course only the next episode will reveal if my assumption is correct or not.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-26-2022, 06:55 AM

Denji understands why Power did what she did. He only had Pochita after all. I bet he will forgive her and keep the betrayal a secret after copping a feel.

Kraco

Wed, 10-26-2022, 07:02 AM

Denji understands why Power did what she did. He only had Pochita after all. I bet he will forgive her and keep the betrayal a secret after copping a feel.

That's a good point. They can't keep fighting the bat devil secret, as it happened in the middle of a busy street, but anything leading to that can be hidden.

neflight86

Wed, 10-26-2022, 07:08 AM

Because Power could've rescued her cat if she were strong, but she didn't.

I thought the reasoning is that the cat would be used as a hostage; she didn't want to put it in danger. I don't think strength can help much in that situation. It looked like she gave up hope after it was eaten, got depressed, and ceased resisting.

I liked how Power snapped to attention when Makima asked them to 'please quiet down', like she was afraid, while Denji just kept standing there with his gums flapping. One of them has reason to fear her.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-26-2022, 09:54 AM

Strength matters in hostage situations, if you are fast and powerful enough to rescue the hostage before it gets killed. Power didn't have that ability, whereas Denji saved a ton of humans while battling batbane.

Best parts of the episode:
https://i.ibb.co/PFkzMGP/powerpitsside.png

https://i.ibb.co/2Mp2KDs/powerpits.gif

KrayZ33

Wed, 10-26-2022, 01:55 PM

The girl is called "Power"... why's that if she's weak - betcha she isn't - at all.
I also don't understand where you are getting or coming from that you think fiends are stronger than devils or vice versa, that has neither been mentioned nor implied as far as I can tell. Or has it?
And why do you think devils want to become fiends? That as well hasn't been mentioned.
Considering Good-Boy made a pact with Denji like that to survive kinda tells the opposite.
He didn't do it because he wanted power, he wanted to survive, at least if we go by what Denji said at that time
The only other line regarding that was:
"when a devil takes control over a human corpse, you get a fiend". Or was there something else?

Either way, the best part about this episode was the irony of Power trusting the word of a devil.

But the whole thing was awesome.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 10-26-2022, 06:19 PM

Kraco

Thu, 10-27-2022, 12:25 AM

My guess would have been that weak, very non-humanoid devils would want to become fiends in order to infiltrate the human society better. Whether that works or not is another question, but I doubt weak devils would be able to think that far anyway. Possibly a weak devil would become stronger in the process as well. It's hard to see a strong devil becoming stronger. But then again, from all the xianxia I've read, I suspect also in East Asian traditions the human form could be considered the ultimate one, so perhaps it simply is desirable for the devils, no questions asked.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-27-2022, 09:31 AM

When a devil takes over a human corpse, it becomes a fiend. If it doesn't become more powerful, why do that? Why not stick with its original devil form? At the very least, it seems to remove the need to consume blood, since Power doesn't seem to need to drink blood to maintain herself. That's where I got the fiends are stronger than devils, at the very least if its the same devil becoming a fiend. Naturally, there can be variances where a fiend is weaker than an originally high level devil.

As for Pochita giving his heart to Denji, that's because he cared for Denji and wanted to see his dream, even if Pochita himself ceased to exist (in his current form) to do so. If Pochita just wanted to survive, he could've possessed Denji and become a fiend, like Denji himself suggested. Denji is NOT a fiend. His case is special, as Makima mentioned.

If they want to become a fiend, why did the Bat Devil not become a fiend?
I don't think that it's a voluntary thing, more like a last resort at best, or maybe not even that... but I don't see the drive you are talking about. I don't feel like they want to become fiends at all.
Pochita didn't make Denji a fiend nor turn into one himself, even before he and Denji became friends.
It doesn't seem to remove the need for blood either considering that Power craves it still (EP2) and that bird(?) dude they killed in EP2 was feasting on something as well.
The Zombie Devil wasn't a fiend either, even though he had more than enough bodies to transform into one, some were probably more powerful than the average human as well, both in terms of actualy physique and influence.
And I don't think Power would talk about her former self so proudly like people do when they did something special in the past, that is now gone or not exactly the same way as before.

"Before becoming a fiend, I was a devil feared by all..."
Feels like you'd rather not mention the devil part at all and say "I'm just a super strong fiend, I'm feared by everyone..."
or
"Even when I was just a devil, demonic peons would tremble in my presence...."
Although I have to admit that I don't speak japanese, so that might be a translation thing.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 10-27-2022, 09:43 AM

Now that you mention those events, that makes sense. I stand corrected.

KrayZ33

Thu, 10-27-2022, 09:55 AM

Man... after rewatching the scenes for this discussion, I didn't really catch this at first and thought he was just waiting in that corner and not crying (not sure how I missed that):

https://i.imgur.com/nnWyUhQ.png

Is there a cool plush of him or something. That's so freaking adorable considering he has a moving chainsaw on his head that could hurt someone just by accident.

edit: obviously there is, lol, that's so dumb looking that it's cute again :D
Would totally give it to a dog as a comfort toy.

Ryllharu

Thu, 10-27-2022, 01:36 PM

The animation is really good and the shots are nicely composed, but I'm still out. The rest of you have fun with it.

The series is not holding my interest and this episode didn't really do it any favors for me. The crying Pochita flashback probably was my favorite part of the episode.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 10-27-2022, 01:40 PM

Fare thee well, Felicity.

Ryllharu

Thu, 10-27-2022, 01:52 PM

Don't encourage me to come back and shit on the series every week out of spite. I was being polite about it, don't know why you've decided to take my lack of interest in this series as an attack.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 10-27-2022, 01:58 PM

Wait, what the heck does "Fare the well, Felicity" mean? I thought Darth was just saying goodbye.

neflight86

Thu, 10-27-2022, 07:47 PM

Sorry it didn't catch your interest. Honestly, it's not to the parts that make me recommend it yet, but you gave it a fair shake.

Maybe you'll binge it later sometime when you're bored?

Buffalobiian

Fri, 10-28-2022, 12:50 AM

I thought Denji saw blood on Power's shirt and thought he should give her a jacket or something.

It took him spelling it out for me to realise he was looking at boobs. I guess he also doesn't own a jacket.

Gotta keep reminding myself that Denji is not that kind of protagonist.

The CGI is still jarring. It works well for the most part, but when it's noticable it still disrupts the experience. The impression left in me isn't "This is shit", but more "what a shame".

DarthEnderX

Fri, 10-28-2022, 02:07 AM

Wait, what the heck does "Fare the well, Felicity" mean?https://media.tenor.com/a7LMG-8ldlAAAAAM/ice-cube-bye-felicia.gif

KrayZ33

Fri, 10-28-2022, 11:25 AM

The CGI is still jarring. It works well for the most part, but when it's noticable it still disrupts the experience. The impression left in me isn't "This is shit", but more "what a shame".

It's funny how this can work, for me it's the exact opposite. The way characters move and look feels so superior to how they would normaly move or "chill" in conversations
The way Makima drank her cofee in the car and the background image moving like that etc.
The fight itself, I find, was better looking than 99% of the other shows I watched so far as well. (Edgerunners for example still beats it when it isn't about fighting though!)

I think I know what seconds put you off - 17:05-17:12, for example. But to me it looks just soooo much more interesting than the faces and movement we usually see in these situations

Buffalobiian

Fri, 10-28-2022, 11:53 AM

I think it's when scenes feel "choppy" that my brain goes "oh, that's right. There's CG here. Did they cheap out?"

I didn't seem to mind in Demon Slayer because it didn't feel jarring, despite CG being obvious there.

Comparing MAPPA to MAPPA, I can't say that I had any issues with Attack on Titan or Jujutsu Kaisen either.

I say this while knowing that all current anime is computer assisted in some way.

Ryllharu

Fri, 10-28-2022, 12:28 PM

The animation is fine, and it doesn't look janky at all because they've rotoscoped it very well. I suspect you're being thrown off by how much rotoscoping they're doing instead of the CGI. It has that affect in almost every medium it gets used in, because proper mocap is an art in and of itself.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 10-29-2022, 06:10 AM

Chainsaw Man Counter.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1095495184692620?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

DarthEnderX

Sat, 10-29-2022, 08:11 AM

Edit: Wrong thread

Kraco

Tue, 11-01-2022, 12:18 PM

Episode 4

- - -

Denji might have said he's going to consider learning manners, and indeed it does look like he's a bit more civilised already, but despite Denji claiming Power is an angel, I still couldn't help but feel some pity for Topknot-Aki after she was sent to live in his apartment as well. Seems like Makima's ruthlessness isn't limited to devils and fiends.

KrayZ33

Tue, 11-01-2022, 02:05 PM

WILL WE BE ABLE TO SEE IT?

An Angel disguised as Oni

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-01-2022, 10:12 PM

Does this show have different EDs every episode?

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-01-2022, 11:17 PM

Does this show have different EDs every episode?

It has thus far.

That last minute sure was titillating.

edit: lol there's a figure out already for this.
https://www.nin-nin-game.com/en/chainsaw-man/78827-shibuya-scramble-figure-chainsaw-man-power-17-limited-edition-nyaako-bonus-alpha-satellite-.html?fbclid=IwAR2wT8GIdsonpZhdelbf0IPujGfPJuhWwbc UOu40Tj8nq8D4izWUSn9vwRQ

Kraco

Wed, 11-02-2022, 03:31 AM

https://www.nin-nin-game.com/en/chainsaw-man/78827-shibuya-scramble-figure-chainsaw-man-power-17-limited-edition-nyaako-bonus-alpha-satellite-.html?fbclid=IwAR2wT8GIdsonpZhdelbf0IPujGfPJuhWwbc UOu40Tj8nq8D4izWUSn9vwRQ

You know you are paying for extra class when your figure includes a toilet bowl.

MFauli

Wed, 11-02-2022, 06:00 AM

What a great episode, so much happening. Nice bonus-fight. Cool wolf-devil summoning.

I loved when Denji was like "if you lose, it just means your dream was lesser than squeezing some tits!". True words, can't argue with that :D

Power moving in looks super fun, lol. I lol irl when she casually flung the vegetables through the room, like, wtf XD

About the boob touching, I don't care whether we see it or not, but I srsly hope Denji really gets to do it and next episode doesn't start with some interruption just before he can grope.

PS: The guy's hairstyle is impossible. I actually wondered how he keep the hair so straight upwards on the back of his head. Then we actually got to see him do his hairstyle ... his hair should hang down like a ponytail, but nah, just defies gravity and stands straight upwards lol.

neflight86

Wed, 11-02-2022, 09:28 AM

Gel?

Leech devil was... interesting, and we now know devils can have relationships with each other, so there may be coordination in the future.

That she was used to emphasize that it isn't the nobility of the goal that characters can draw strength from, but rather the conviction to see them through is a nice juxtaposition you don't see in anime too often. At least not as a full on joke.

Simp-kun was too easy to bend for Makima's trust! Power is downright nasty, apparently, but Denjis can't be choosers.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 11-02-2022, 09:43 AM

Gel?

That was what I initially thought until this episode where he clearly just ties up limp hair and it gets erect by itself.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-02-2022, 02:21 PM

If Denji is smart, he'll spread his 3 squeezes out, and not spend them all at once.

Kraco

Wed, 11-02-2022, 02:28 PM

If Denji is smart, he'll spread his 3 squeezes out, and not spend them all at once.

On the contrary, he should use them all immediately. He's dealing with a devil here. They are prone to lying and breaking promises, so it's better not to count on being able to continue later.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 11-02-2022, 06:41 PM

Or he or Power could just up and die, so do all of them NOW.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 11-02-2022, 11:14 PM

But shower first.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 11-04-2022, 12:35 AM

None a y'all survive on a desert island. You'd eat all your rations day-1.

Kraco

Fri, 11-04-2022, 12:57 AM

None a y'all survive on a desert island. You'd eat all your rations day-1.

You need to eat properly to have the energy to look for and develop new sources of nutrients, water, and shelter. Otherwise you could do nothing but lethargically sit in shadow, thriftily nibbling your precious rations, hoping for a miracle.

MFauli

Fri, 11-04-2022, 02:59 AM

You need to eat properly to have the energy to look for and develop new sources of nutrients, water, and shelter. Otherwise you could do nothing but lethargically sit in shadow, thriftily nibbling your precious rations, hoping for a miracle.

And suddenly the fat guy wins <3

David75

Fri, 11-04-2022, 04:48 AM

Ironically I remember reading fat people die of starvation quicker than average lean people.
But maybe my source was wrong.

Another survivalist problem: daily hormone mandatory intake or any medication needed to live.

Kraco

Fri, 11-04-2022, 06:19 AM

Ironically I remember reading fat people die of starvation quicker than average lean people.
But maybe my source was wrong.

That would be quite strange, considering we only get fat to store energy for the bad days. Despite what the Bible says, humans didn't develop for a paradise. Sometimes it could take days to get a decent meal, sometimes folks needed to struggle for months, relying on poorer than sufficient food, until abundant days again arrived. Even agriculture didn't automatically solve everything. The crops could be lost for any reason, again resulting in starvation. Then it would be useful if you already had fat around your waist to burn.

KrayZ33

Fri, 11-04-2022, 06:24 AM

Lets get back on topic please.

Tits... we were talking about tits.

David75

Fri, 11-04-2022, 08:15 AM

Lets get back on topic please.

Tits... we were talking about tits.

You mean additionnal fat reserves females get on top of a globally higher percentage ? :p

shinta|hikari

Fri, 11-04-2022, 01:53 PM

https://i.ibb.co/5kz3m9S/ezgif-1-9e13c22597.gif

MFauli

Fri, 11-04-2022, 02:16 PM

https://i.ibb.co/5kz3m9S/ezgif-1-9e13c22597.gif

Is that from next episode or is there a game? I need details ;>

neflight86

Fri, 11-04-2022, 02:22 PM

Classy.

Forgot to mention, we also got a sneak peak at some more characters in this squad. We have... eyepatch senpai, and two more rookies, it looks like?

Are humans even able to fight devils without forming contracts with other devils?

shinta|hikari

Fri, 11-04-2022, 02:36 PM

Are humans even able to fight devils without forming contracts with other devils?

I would say no. Otherwise, why even have a group that specifically contracts with devils to fight them?

@Mfauli - I just found it on an image site, so no idea about the source. Probably fan-made.

David75

Sat, 11-05-2022, 01:05 AM

I would say no. Otherwise, why even have a group that specifically contracts with devils to fight them?

@Mfauli - I just found it on an image site, so no idea about the source. Probably fan-made.
Beware of the Spoiler Police :cool:

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-08-2022, 11:42 AM

5

---

Okay. Yeah, Gun Devil. I can see why that'd be powerful.

Also, good world building. "We have to censor the news cause making people scared makes devils stronger."

I bet they don't have horror movies.

David75

Tue, 11-08-2022, 01:39 PM

Kraco

Tue, 11-08-2022, 02:40 PM

Killed millions in less than 5 minutes. Feels more like thermonuclear bomb devil...

Ok the bits he loses are bullets, so the naming is logical from that angle.

But the way the house was blasted, felt more like a bomb honestly.

Makima knows how to work Denji, don't know if she's a devil but she acts like one haha

Tactical nuclear weapons have been used as gun ammunition. There's no fundamental reason why even heavier payloads couldn't be sent on their way that way, but it's not convenient compared to bombs and missiles, especially since the artillery piece would be unwieldy. However, that's hardly a problem for a devil.

Denji is the perfect underling for Makima. All of her tricks work on him 90-100%. I'll leave the margin of 10% aside because Makima is obviously intelligent, while Denji is about as smart as a rubber boot, so there's always a chance for simple miscommunication between them, plus intelligent people often can't imagine all the idiotic things fools might suddenly pull off.

The writing is pretty good in this show, I have to admit that. I have certain extra respect for stories that have good writing for stupid stuff. I know I wouldn't be capable of it, so I respect it more than I would just the usual kind of good writing.

MFauli

Tue, 11-08-2022, 04:02 PM

I need to say: After a rather bad 1st episode, this is now my favorite anime of the season (although Fumetsu no Anata e Season 2 still has a chance). The pacing is so nice and there are zero boring scenes. Everything is interesting.

Before I forget the question: Gun devil, ghost devil, ok. But ... what happens when these are killed? Do guns vanish from the world? Or is the gun devil just reborn? What's the deal?

I must say I loved boob touching scenes. Not for being horny myself. But rather, unlike ANY other anime, they didn't just go for pervy humor or shock value or anything. Nah, they went through with it 100% seriously, and, oh the surprise, turns out grabbing some random boobs isn't all that. And personally I agree with that. But fictional media, anime especially, always make boobs into this uber sexual dream fantasy ... that Denji also shared. Seeing his disappointment felt SO refreshing.

Even better then when he got to touch his leader's boob and more. It was such a good scene that really transported the message here: Sexual stuff can be amazing, but only if you're truly into it. And it also feels a bit like a 4th wall jab at all other anime who keep teasing ecchi stuff. Here it's like "so what?". And that's it. Good.

The gun devil flashback with the little brother in the house vanishing in an instant was brutal. I assume the gun devil will be some late-story villain.

Only bs I have to call: Does this anime really want to claim that widespread gun violence didn't exist prior to 9/11? lol

neflight86

Tue, 11-08-2022, 09:22 PM

Dense.

Denji lost and gained a new 'goal' of physical fulfillment.

We have some end-game devil and Aki backstory. Eyepatch senpai has apparently been there longer in spite of this seeming to be Aki's squad. Denji now (thinks he) has some elevated defense against lewdness, but is still just as thirsty, given the opportunity in a great introduction scene to the rest of unit 4.

Then we have the actual horror of the looping hotel.

Great episode; CSM is finally hitting its stride.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-08-2022, 09:27 PM

Only bs I have to call: Does this anime really want to claim that widespread gun violence didn't exist prior to 9/11? lol

That's not what it said.

The Gun Devil was born after 9/11. 9/11 was the threshold at which fear peaked, not violence.

Violence can increase, but when no one gives a shit or when no one is aware of it, the devil's power does not follow.

Lots of good scenes this episode:
-Denji being disillusioned, then being reignited.
-Power losing her charm over Denji and losing in effective power.
-The scene where the duo found Aki "easy" to manimpulate for snacks, while I'm sure he's seeing them as easy to manipulate with snacks.

MFauli

Tue, 11-08-2022, 09:36 PM

That's not what it said.

The Gun Devil was born after 9/11. 9/11 was the threshold at which fear peaked, not violence.

Violence can increase, but when no one gives a shit or when no one is aware of it, the devil's power does not follow.

But the point is gun violence and fear of gun violence has ZERO connection to 9/11.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-08-2022, 11:21 PM

So who could possibly be stronger than a Gun Devil?

Existential Dread Devil?

David75

Tue, 11-08-2022, 11:24 PM

So who could possibly be stronger than a Gun Devil?

Existential Dread Devil?

Dumb/Idiot Devil would top anything else by far. After all Denji seems to be quite OP hahaha

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-08-2022, 11:34 PM

But the point is gun violence and fear of gun violence has ZERO connection to 9/11.

9/11 is not caused by guns, I agree with that.

9/11 rousing fear of terrorism finally hitting home, which is often pictured as crazies with guns? Plausible.

It's the fear of guns that creates/powers this devil, not the use of guns itself.

Again, answering the original question of

Does this anime really want to claim that widespread gun violence didn't exist prior to 9/11? lo

No, I don't think it's wanting to claim that widespread gun violence didn't exist prior to 9/11. Now, why didn't the Gun Devil appear during WW2? I have no idea. Surely guns were scary then.

Kraco

Wed, 11-09-2022, 01:55 AM

You guys are too focused on the 9/11. The history is different from our world's. The episode said that even before 9/11, gun manufacturers/gun dealers were trying to profit by marketing guns as a countermeasure to devils. Perhaps we can assume gun laws in various countries were also affected, to be more relaxed (compared to our reality) so that folks could defend themselves from the devils/fiends that could lurk anywhere. However, this also, apparently, created a situation where not only criminals had more guns, but gunfights in general were commonplace. It's easy to imagine, in fact, if every joe has a gun and any sudden movement in the shadow of night could be interpreted as a devil or weirdly acting person could be suspected to be a fiend. There would be a whole lot people who shoot first, inspect later. That would certainly increase the fear of guns.

MFauli

Wed, 11-09-2022, 05:13 AM

So who could possibly be stronger than a Gun Devil?

Existential Dread Devil?

Sex Devil

Meaning of Life Devil

Grievance Devil

Envy Devil

And then a whole slew of elementals: Water Devil, Air Devil, Fire Devil, etc.

Kraco

Wed, 11-09-2022, 05:38 AM

Fear makes devils stronger. Guns are highly feared. Generally speaking simply Death Devil could be stronger, but maybe that's too abstract for a devil to be born out of? A Disease Devil could be horrifying, perhaps a more specific one, like Cancer Devil. However, as bad they could be, they wouldn't necessarily kill you immediately like Gun Devil, so they could possibly be destroyed before they caused a horrific amount of damage. It could be funny to see some technically powerful devils based on very concrete and powerful fears, such as Unemployment Devil. What would the fight against it be like, haha. Also kind of abstract, but still easy to imagine would be Hunger Devil. We have already seen it a long time ago in Elder Scrolls... It probably wouldn't appear in any developed country, though.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-09-2022, 10:07 PM

Sex Devil

Meaning of Life Devil

Grievance Devil

Envy Devil

And then a whole slew of elementals: Water Devil, Air Devil, Fire Devil, etc.I think you missed the part where a devils power is based on how frightened people are of the devils thing.

You think people are more scared of envy than guns?

MFauli

Thu, 11-10-2022, 05:16 AM

I think you missed the part where a devils power is based on how frightened people are of the devils thing.

You think people are more scared of envy than guns?

Ok, you picked the one from my list that might not fit. Congrats?

Buffalobiian

Thu, 11-10-2022, 06:58 AM

You fear sex, the meaning of life, and grief?

MFauli

Thu, 11-10-2022, 07:40 AM

You fear sex, the meaning of life, and grief?

Absolutely.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 11-10-2022, 08:37 AM

I fear grief, but so do most humans. However, fearing sex and the meaning of life is something I would talk to my therapist about (not a judgment but sincere opinion trying to be helpful).

MFauli

Thu, 11-10-2022, 01:05 PM

I fear grief, but so do most humans. However, fearing sex and the meaning of life is something I would talk to my therapist about (not a judgment but sincere opinion trying to be helpful).

I am in therapy because of my depression caused by my fear of the meaning of life or rather, not knowing what it could be or even realizing that there is none.

As for sex, I think quite a lot of people have all sorts of insecurities that they're afraid of. Just think about all the women who are worried about boob size or men worried about dick size. Fear of impotence. Fear of not being able to get pregnant. Fear of undressing before someone else. Fear of the first time. Fear of STDs. And so on. Lots of stuff to fear about sex.

Kraco

Thu, 11-10-2022, 02:49 PM

I feel like the majority of people would still feel more positive about sex than negative. Otherwise our species would be extinct already. I reckon the minority having issues with it, to the point of having been brutally raped at some point, might not be enough to create a truly deadly devil. Also, a fear of STDs might not directly contribute to Sex Devil's strength. It's not the act of sex folks are afraid of but specifically the partner being diseased. Impotence or having been raped before would, in my opinion, contribute more to Sex Devil's strength directly, although I guess there could be Devil of Impotence separately as well. No man would want to face it, but fortunately there are female devil hunters, probably less affected by it.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 11-10-2022, 03:11 PM

Existential dread and sex are topics too broad to easily clump together into one devil. The other devils are much simpler, like bat, worm, gun, blood, chainsaw. I don't think complex ideas can become devils due to how differently interpretations can be, and therefore much harder to be a clear target of fear from the populace.

MFauli

Thu, 11-10-2022, 04:22 PM

I don't think you can say fear of guns is majority either, when video games with guns and violence are the most popular form of entertainment nowadays. People LOVE their guns.

Existential dread and sex are topics too broad to easily clump together into one devil. The other devils are much simpler, like bat, worm, gun, blood, chainsaw. I don't think complex ideas can become devils due to how differently interpretations can be, and therefore much harder to be a clear target of fear from the populace.

Disagree, if only because the opposite is true apparently, with the gun devil behaving like some titanian force that is NOTHING like a gun. So I can see the reverse also being true, a "vague" fear turning into a devil, too.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 11-10-2022, 04:35 PM

Isn't the gun devil just a huge gun that blasted an entire region away? I don't think it was the gun devil itself that flew around ravaging places. I think it shot those areas.

Also, people love fake guns, be it toys or in video games or in fiction. But that is certainly not the case for real guns, especially if they are not the ones holding them. I have a license to carry, and even then I feel anxious just having a real gun in arms reach. Deadly weapons are no joke. US might be weird in how big the gun culture is, but even gun enthusiasts know guns are scary, which is why training is necessary. That's also one of the biggest reasons people own guns, i.e. to defend themselves from gun-wielding criminals/threats.

Kraco

Thu, 11-10-2022, 04:38 PM

Disagree, if only because the opposite is true apparently, with the gun devil behaving like some titanian force that is NOTHING like a gun.

Keep in mind that in English "a gun" also includes artillery, as long as it's not rocket artillery. The gigantic cannons of battleships were also guns. The tactical nuclear weapon shooting artillery pieces were also guns.

MFauli

Thu, 11-10-2022, 04:55 PM

shinta|hikari

Thu, 11-10-2022, 05:07 PM

I'm in the US, and people are afraid of guns. The reason why the "law" can't be changed is because it is an amendment to the constitution, and is insanely difficult to change in today's political climate. Not only that, the gun lobby is very powerful and controls many government officials.

In reality, the vast majority of humans would freak out if they see someone brandish a gun in public, especially if they believe it to be real and loaded. Even in open-carry states where some weirdos do just that, the normal folk are still scared and try their best to move along and not be targeted.

Remember that the reason gun restriction laws exist in many countries is precisely because of the fear of guns. They are very dangerous, and fearing dangerous things is expected and normal. That explains why the gun devil is so powerful.

As for the gun devil simply existing, it doesn't need a lot of fear. I don't think chainsaws command as much fear as blood or bats, but Denji exists. Even a moderate amount of fear seems to be able to spawn devils. There is also that worm devil.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 11-11-2022, 03:16 AM

My question is...does the Texas Chainsaw Massacre series exist in this world, and if so, is Denji way more powerful expressly because of it. :p

you picked the one from my list that might not fit.I just picked the most obvious one.

Grievance > Guns? Sex > Guns? Air > Guns? Even Water and Fire, while potentially quite scary, have plenty of positive associations besides causing death.

Meaning of life is basically the same thing as existential dread. So I agree with that one.

Lots of stuff to fear about sex.Granted. But not more than GUNS.

Isn't the gun devil just a huge gun that blasted an entire region away?They didn't show it. So we don't know.

Even a moderate amount of fear seems to be able to spawn devils. There is also that worm devil.There was a Tomato Devil! Who spawned that?! People with allergies?!

Kraco

Fri, 11-11-2022, 05:24 AM

There was a Tomato Devil! Who spawned that?! People with allergies?!

As hard as it's to believe, there actually are people who don't like tomatoes. Maybe, especially when they were younger, they were always afraid of being forced to eat their tomatoes. The devil wasn't strong at all, so the fear didn't amount to much.

David75

Fri, 11-11-2022, 07:50 AM

Tomato devil and even Pochi makes me realise that demons can be very local and be born from a fear appearing in a small area.

Pochi was maybe born in a forest where a chainsaw accident happen in a wood workers group. So like 10 to 50 people got different levels of fear after the incident.

Tomato devil: school kids being forcefed local tomatoes hahaha.

Gun devil powers probably come from the fact the fear that spawned it is spread across the USA population and maybe more thanks to the TV coverage.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 11-11-2022, 11:40 AM

Gun devil powers probably come from the fact the fear that spawned it is spread across the USA population and maybe more thanks to the TV coverage.Also, like...every war for the last half century?

David75

Fri, 11-11-2022, 12:39 PM

That's from our world perspective.
Now that you point it out, as written here, there are some subtleties like corporation trying to sell weapons against devils.
So maybe you need some kind of process and fear in multiple individuals to get a devil.

KrayZ33

Sat, 11-12-2022, 07:51 AM

But it still means people have not much fear of guns in their everyday experience. Ofc, that has somewhat changed in the USA with all the mass shootings, but it's still not enough fear, otherwise they'd change their laws ...

We could start a debate here, but it's not like the US could even do anything about it at this point.
The guns are already in the system. You will never get them out.
I wonder, if this were Chainsaw man, banning guns in America would probably lead to fearmongering and increase the power of the gun devil at this point.
Right now, propaganda paints guns as your "best and trusty buddy".

Disagree, if only because the opposite is true apparently, with the gun devil behaving like some titanian force that is NOTHING like a gun. So I can see the reverse also being true, a "vague" fear turning into a devil, too.

I just don't see how this is connected.
But I agree that vague fears can turn into devils nonetheless
It's just that these things are most likely far, far less likely to actually matter in your/anyones every day life.
While guns, as told in this episode, were part of their everyday life. And when the armed assault happened in the US, it was part of *everyones* life.... in the whole country.
And who knows how "Africa" looks like in Chainsaw Man.
In that instant, it seems like the Gun Devil was created which in turn had a cascading effect on every single devil.

MFauli

Sat, 11-12-2022, 11:47 AM

Anyway, do devils stay dead? Like, they kill the gun devil. So what? People are still scared of guns.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 11-12-2022, 04:03 PM

New one might spawn.

neflight86

Sun, 11-13-2022, 10:47 PM

I'm just glad to know that guns are apparently somewhat effective against the devils, even through they are supernatural in nature... well, enough to have been marketed as such. That gives hope that a regular non-devil-contract person could potentially face them.

Also interesting that eyepatch senpai somehow negotiated a one-time payment of eye-for-arm, while Aki has to serve up more flesh for each 'billable hour' of his fox devil.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 11-14-2022, 01:35 PM

Billable is better. He can heal back skin, after all. Eyes, not so much.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 11-14-2022, 09:34 PM

Billable is better. He can heal back skin, after all. Eyes, not so much.Except she just gets a power she can use however she wants. If he needs to use the fox a bunch in a row, he could end up with no skin.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 11-15-2022, 12:44 AM

But his power is much more potent. He gets the use of the entire fox that can eat devils versus just an arm.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-15-2022, 11:24 AM

Episode 06

--------------------

That girl pissed me off so much, but at the same time I enjoyed that the professionals were the ones who broke.

Kraco

Tue, 11-15-2022, 12:52 PM

I can't imagine Kobeni continuing her work in the agency. She didn't regain her wits even after stabbing Topknot-Aki. There's no way she could continue anymore. I guess it's off to the sex industry for her. I'd say Arai still might have a chance. He didn't become a total witless wreck yet, and in fact he only started breaking when things looked hopeless. Kobeni was pretty much broken from the beginning, not broken in a good way for that particular job (like Denji) but the worst way. She's pure dead weight, who actively endangers her colleagues. A transfer to a health delivery service or soapland is waiting for her.

A chainsaw's most crucial part is the looped chain, which is without an end or a beginning. I wonder if that's why the Eternity Devil is afraid of it, because there's some philosophical similarity. But then again, an eternity of pain is probably the more concrete reason, like Denji guessed.

Aside from all that, I guess only in Japan a superior would pressure an unwilling underling to start smoking. There can't be many developed countries left where smoking is still fashionable and favourable.

neflight86

Tue, 11-15-2022, 01:38 PM

Kobeni's probably better equipped for this than most, even if that's not good for her. Himeno said that it's the crazy devil hunters that evoke fear in devils; not the capable ones per say. Sex work versus government employment... not a choice I envy.

Aside from all that, I guess only in Japan a superior would pressure an unwilling underling to start smoking. There can't be many developed countries left where smoking is still fashionable and favourable.

I think Asia, China and Japan specifically, have among the largest per capita smoking populations in the world, and it isn't nearly as stigmatized over there.

Himeno's development arc was interesting and made her hit harder when she thought she lost Aki and her cracks began to show. Looks like there is no usage cap on the ghost arm, either. Strangle, scoop, or restrain... anything an arm might need to do.

We sure Power isn't the fib devil? Funny that her 'delirium' was just her normal Nobel prize self. I wonder how much time had passed in there (to them).

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-15-2022, 01:44 PM

I think it's weird that it took so long for Denji to just...attack the devil.

It's funny, I don't think anyone on the squad has any idea how strong Denji is, because none of them have actually SEEN the Chainsaw Man before. Power and maybe Aki saw the half-ass version with the little chainsaw sticking out of his head, but neither have seen him go full Devil yet.

Kobeni's probably better equipped for this than most, even if that's not good for her. Himeno said that it's the crazy devil hunters that evoke fear in devils; not the capable ones per say.I don't see how she's crazy. She's responding to an otherworldly horror with panicked terror. That's a pretty standard response I say.

Devils feed on fear. When she said the devils fear the crazy hunters, I assume she means crazy like Denji, i.e. will just fearlessly run in slashing, because he has no sense of self-preservation.

Kraco

Tue, 11-15-2022, 02:04 PM

I don't see how she's crazy. She's responding to an otherworldly horror with panicked terror. That's a pretty standard response I say.

It shouldn't be the standard response in that line of work! I guess the agency is really starving for applicants. Anyone who happens to ask for a job will be given one, judging by how Kobeni was accepted. Though that being said, it is quite a strange workplace. The life expectancy is apparently very short, understandably, and the death probably gruesome, so you'd think the wages were superb. However, Topknot-Aki lives in a humble abode he's now even sharing with those absolute nuisances Denji and Power. We have seen Denji and Power being forced to work, with the alternative being death, so they must be so cheap employees (=slaves) any official at the Ministry of Finance would be screaming in pure ecstasy. But then again, maybe Makima just has a zero budget and the other team leaders have carefully selected, quality underlings motivated by a good salary.

neflight86

Tue, 11-15-2022, 03:59 PM

I think it's weird that it took so long for Denji to just...attack the devil.

...

I don't see how she's crazy. She's responding to an otherworldly horror with panicked terror. That's a pretty standard response I say.

They were distracted discussing whether to kill Denji and looking for other ways out. The previous attack(s) also just made it larger, so I can see some hesitation until there are no alternatives, and Aki is bleeding out.

This is a world with devils running amok, so otherworldy horror is not as uncommon as we might think. She is in the business of exterminating supernatural threats, and Himeno said she has the skills, but her paranoia and lack of confidence/fear is abnormal when compared to the rest of the characters in this group. She's unhinged and ready to stab a coworker because a devil told her to.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-15-2022, 08:58 PM

They were distracted discussing whether to kill Denji and looking for other ways out. The previous attack(s) also just made it larger, so I can see some hesitation until there are no alternatives, and Aki is bleeding out.

I do wonder if attacks actually made it larger, or if it was just fear that made it larger. The more they shat their pants, the larger it got. It could have faked the impression that attacks made it larger just to get that effect and to have them stop attacking it.

Himeno, Kobeni and Arai have the varying responses of "normal" people. They were happy to sacrifice Denji in the hopes of getting out and trying again, and succumbed to the usual fear stuff. Aki is the crazy one who was happy to die or lose some lifespan for a chance to kill the Gun Devil, and Power is Power.

I'm actually now quite happy that the other three broke - in contrast to their initial question of "Can we trust these guys to watch our back?"

The tobacco scene.. yeah, wouldn't have worked out well in the modern west. That's some coercive drug use.

MFauli

Tue, 11-15-2022, 09:58 PM

Oh cooooome the fuck on! What a cliffhanger >_>

Going into cryostasis now.

Edit:

1.) Why is the chainsaw devil powerful anyway? We talked about fearful things last week. No large amount of people is scared of chainsaws :>

2.)"It's either devil hunting or sex work" - yeah, or any other normal job. While I don't want flashbacks, I really wanna know how these ended up her only two options, when we saw that this world is pretty normal outside of some elements.

3.) Man, I hope Kobeni and the guy get some severe shit after this mission is over.

4.) Did that devil grow this much and quickly only because of the fear of 2 people? That's kinda too much imo.

Kraco

Wed, 11-16-2022, 01:23 AM

1.) Why is the chainsaw devil powerful anyway? We talked about fearful things last week. No large amount of people is scared of chainsaws :>

No, actually there probably are enough people scared of them. Chainsaws are somewhat regular weapons in actions games as well, let alone movies/TV series of various kinds, like a natural addition to blades and guns. They have also been used by military and police as a method of violent entry through locked doors, although special purpose circular saws are another option. Needless to say, murderers have use them as well in RL.

Chainsaws do command respect. I have used them plenty of times, and I always remember to pay attention to various steps to keep myself safe. It's most certainly no cordless drill. Perhaps it's partially due to traditional gender roles, but I can assure you there are plenty of older women who would never want to touch one. No doubt there are also lots of city folks whom you'd need to convince to try them, though at the same time I'm sure there's also fascination in an equal amount.

Still, a chainsaw is obviously no gun in this respect.

2.)"It's either devil hunting or sex work" - yeah, or any other normal job. While I don't want flashbacks, I really wanna know how these ended up her only two options, when we saw that this world is pretty normal outside of some elements.

It's a relatively normal, but still an anime world. You occasionally see that train of thought in manga. It was also present in GTO, for example.

4.) Did that devil grow this much and quickly only because of the fear of 2 people? That's kinda too much imo.

It's a closed off world by the devil. It's possible its powers are amplified there significantly.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-16-2022, 01:32 AM

It shouldn't be the standard response in that line of work! I guess the agency is really starving for applicants.Wouldn't it be?! Seems to have a crazy high mortality rate. And unlike, say, HeroAca or Jujutsu Kaisen, everyone that joins doesn't get powers!

It's on the same desperation tier as sex work. It must be considered a really shit job.

David75

Wed, 11-16-2022, 01:32 AM

It's fair to think they were trapped for a two meals period of time. So 8 to 10 hours. That devil had plenty of time to grow with the fear of the two weaklings and Himeno's.
Somehow it feels like Denji knew what to do before sleeping.
Just waiting to see/test the others...
Or he trusts Aki enough to let him do the rounds while he rests and wakes up fresh to take his round.

Denji owns everyone else

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-16-2022, 01:37 AM

1.) Why is the chainsaw devil powerful anyway? We talked about fearful things last week. No large amount of people is scared of chainsaws .It's like the default weapon for when someone imagines a slasher movie monster.

https://media.tenor.com/dpHhZUTSUgoAAAAC/the-simpsons-hockey-mask.gif

Somehow it feels like Denji knew what to do before sleeping.
Just waiting to see/test the others...
Or he trusts Aki enough to let him do the rounds while he rests and wakes up fresh to take his round.Pretty sure he was just thinking "This is a puzzle. I'm of no use here."

David75

Wed, 11-16-2022, 01:42 AM

So far the power scale seems to be devil<fiend<Denji
Hard to tell for contracts like Aki and Himeno.
A fiend is a devil taking full control of a human body.
Denji is a human taking full control of a devil. Or rather the devil giving everything in his case.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 11-16-2022, 12:37 PM

Pretty sure he was just thinking "This is a puzzle. I'm of no use here.

Pretty sure he saw a comfy bed and went "Ima nap"

shinta|hikari

Wed, 11-16-2022, 02:49 PM

Yeah, that was such a cliche joke delivered with such care and art detail that it made me laugh still.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-22-2022, 11:29 AM

E07

----------------

The puke. Dear lord.

Meek girl still pisses me off.

Kraco

Tue, 11-22-2022, 11:31 AM

Episode 7

- - -

Considering what kind of show this is, I should have expected that kind of "kiss" from the beginning, but I only realised it could happen when Himeno said she needs to be more drunk. And then they really did it. That's some super sucky reward for saving all of their lives. As expected, though, Denji couldn't care less about the betrayal. I suppose he's just too simple and pure to think about it, despite his first life actually ending by a traitor's blade.

The hotel devil's weakness wasn't overly specific, but Denji was well suited to deal with it.

Are they really making Kobeni to stay in the unit? That's sheer madness. Her contracted devil must be extremely useful, at least under some circumstances, if it's worth it to keep her around, despite her awfully unsuitable character.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 11-22-2022, 06:32 PM

https://i.ibb.co/sqNy30y/ezgif-1-f53c67d75a.gif

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-22-2022, 10:40 PM

Put alotta effort into that gif.

Interesting the devil said Chainsaw is much weaker now. Was Pochita actually badass before he met Denji?

shinta|hikari

Tue, 11-22-2022, 11:06 PM

Probably before gun devil took the spotlight. Chainsaws are pretty prominent in horror.

BTW, it didn't take much effort. Using Video Editor and some online converters, it took me about 5 minutes.

The waki in this show has to be intentional. Eyepatch didn't have to do those poses, and neither did Power in the previous episodes. It is tasteful in its rarity but clear in its purpose.

MFauli

Tue, 11-22-2022, 11:24 PM

Just watched the episode. Wtf, when the kiss became "juicy", I didn't know whether I'm supposed to watch or start fapping :> That was a quality half-Hentai, lol.

I fully expect Makima to knock on Himeno's door at the start of next episode, though.

Man, that kiss animation triggered me, though. It's been too long since I kissed a girl. Kissing is the best, even better than sex. Also Himeno > Makima, come on, Denji, choose her >_>

That the 2 rookies stay in the team was surprising, especially stabber-girl.

Btw what WAS that demon's weakness now? Felt like Denji just kept slashing away at the devil until the heart was exposed.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-23-2022, 02:27 AM

Probably anything that forms an endless loop. i.e. Denji's slaughter spilling blood, which fuels his continued slaughter.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 11-23-2022, 03:43 AM

Btw what WAS that demon's weakness now? Felt like Denji just kept slashing away at the devil until the heart was exposed.

Denji didn't get to his heart. The Infinite Devil presented it to him.

"Stop cutting me endlessly and end this. Please." -Effectively.

His weakness is that he is psychologically weaker than his infinite body, so if someone with a stronger (or crazier) mind attacks him with a body that can keep up with infinite regeneration, the devil succumbs.

The demon will endlessly give blood, and I'm sure it's not just Chainsaw who would benefit from that. Power for example, would also benefit. But whereas most other people would go "There's no end to this", Denji goes "There's no end to me!"

MFauli

Wed, 11-23-2022, 04:19 AM

Hm, makes kinda sense. Then I just wonder whether his regeneration also fixes tiredness. 3 days is on the verge of when most people would collapse and fall asleep, so the demon had waited for 4-5 days, he might have won.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 11-23-2022, 06:35 AM

I don't think it'd fix tiredness, otherwise Denji wouldn't have slept right after the fight. The Infinite Devil would have won if he managed to hold off, and if it thought that Denji would collapse, but it couldn't take it anymore.

Also, his heart looked like a scrotum.

Kraco

Wed, 11-23-2022, 08:06 AM

Having an undying, endlessly regenerating body with a full sense of pain, but no oblivion of unconsciousness, and then someone endlessly cuts and mutilates you with a chainsaw. It's kind of surprising the devil could last as long as it did.

KrayZ33

Thu, 11-24-2022, 03:28 PM

holy crap, I nearly vomited myself when he swallowed it.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 11-24-2022, 11:09 PM

PURE PROTEIN!

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-29-2022, 11:05 AM

8

---

Is it just me, or did this episode look weird?

neflight86

Tue, 11-29-2022, 12:34 PM

No more so than any other episode.

Mass, multi-target hit called by presumably the Gun Devil.

Who survived, and how log does it take Denji to get up from one measaly headshot?

So, there are more devil hybrids coming?

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-29-2022, 12:48 PM

I don't believe for a second that all these characters are dead.

No more so than any other episode.Hmm, to me, everything before the hits looked EXTRA CGI, and seemed like the framerate was off.

So, there are more devil hybrids coming?I assume this sword guy is one. He has the exact same loadout as Denji, with two blade arms and one sticking out of his face.

David75

Tue, 11-29-2022, 02:00 PM

I liked the many animation techniques and lighting. Far from perfect, but still nice.
I can see Himeno dying, I very much doubt Makima would.
But why not ? The world they live in calls for random instant death a lot more that ours. And their jobs increase the risks by quite a bit.
It would just be a little hard to lose Makima now, story wise.
Denji should have his MC shield.

Kraco

Tue, 11-29-2022, 02:48 PM

I expect Makima, or someone else, to rewind time. While I could perhaps see Himono die now, after the "let's be friends and work together for a common goal" kind of flag, it's impossible for Makima to die, plus kind of strange for so many characters in general to die, unless you want to create a Berserk like story. I'd very much assume this story is about Denji working at that agency, which would be pretty pointless if all of his collegues were removed right atfer they got some depth to their personalities.

That being said, there's definitely government folks behind these hitmen. They were all at the right places at the right time, in a very coordinated fashion, sporting guns and assassination skills. They obviously knew exactly where Makima's crew was, what they were doing, and so forth. It might be another group from the same agency, whatever was the agency's name. Perhaps the blade dude was created on purpose, in secret, and they were alarmed to discover Denji's existence, under someone else's care. So, they decided to kill everyone. The "scary woman" looking after the blade dude seemed like a high level agent, considering she summoned the massive sake, just like Topknot-Aki summons the fox.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-29-2022, 09:25 PM

So if a devil can just go "Nah, fuck that shit, don't wanna", what's the point of a contract? Last week Himeno told us that if the Infinity/Eternity Devil made a contract to let them leave then he must. Ghost Devil this episode just went Nah.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-29-2022, 10:21 PM

shinta|hikari

Tue, 11-29-2022, 11:30 PM

I think Makima will resurrect because she has a contract that allows that, or she is like Denji and knife-devil-fusion and can regenerate.

Pretty sure Eyepatch is dead. She had 3 episodes of development but isn't with the gang in the OP animation. Same logic with Makima. She is too present in the OP to be dead without any demystification of her character.

Someone needs to pull Denji's chain...

MFauli

Wed, 11-30-2022, 12:41 AM

Great episode, but here's what irks me:

- that one guy being able to revive others is way to overpowered. And he can summon that giant snake devil without any visible downsides. Himeno and Aki need to sacrifice bodyparts, so what's his payment?

- I hate how Himeno dies after last night. Feels like a woke moral-bs decision, a la "she tried to have sex with a minor, so that means she had to die". I know at least one forum where people will argue like that and feel it's a good thing. :/

While I do think that Makina will revive one way or another, it wouldn't be bad if all these characters had died for real. Just means the next chapter in Denji's life starts.

I wonder what organization executed this assassination event. Was it the Yakuza? Was it a fringe groupe of devil hybrids?

Also, it was kinda lame how Himeno's ghost devil became visible. Should have just stayed invisible and ripped sword dude to pieces.

I expect Makima, or someone else, to rewind time.

Why would you want such a lame plot-device to happen? This kind of bs is what removes meaningful consequences from so many anime.

Kraco

Wed, 11-30-2022, 01:44 AM

Why would you want such a lame plot-device to happen? This kind of bs is what removes meaningful consequences from so many anime.

All the things I expect are not things I want. Like I said in my post, I expect it because too many people died. Or at least it seems like they died, the whole team. That being said, earlier I was half expecting Kobeni and maybe Arai to leave the unit, but by the looks of it, they didn't. Still, there's some difference between peacefully leaving and leaving in a coffin.

But then again, if Makima, Power, Topknot-Aki, and Denji survive, with the rest kicking the bucket, maybe it would allow the team to be rebuilt using more competent members. A ruthless retirement for the rest, but that's the reality in that universe. Character building for the new members would start from zero at this point, but maybe this is a really long series like the famous shounen from the past? I have no idea.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-30-2022, 06:56 AM

Pretty sure Eyepatch is dead. She had 3 episodes of development but isn't with the gang in the OP animation.She is in the movie theater shot that shows the entire squad.

Interestingly, her mentor guy with the scar shows up in the intro more than any of the other lesser squadmates.

I wonder what organization executed this assassination event. Was it the Yakuza? Was it a fringe groupe of devil hybrids?Seemed pretty obvious they were disciples of the Gun Devil.

That being said, earlier I was half expecting Kobeni and maybe Arai to leave the unit, but by the looks of it, they didn't. Still, there's some difference between peacefully leaving and leaving in a coffin.There's no way those 2 are dead, cause it cut away from their deaths without showing it and the show didn't even show us their powers yet!

MFauli

Wed, 11-30-2022, 07:08 AM

Kobeni and Arai also were 2, versus one shot we heard before it cut away, so I'm 100% sure they both survived. At least one, but probably both. Perhaps one got injured. And after everything, it's time they show us some good moments, too, so dodging that surprise attack would be a reasonable amount of badass display.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 11-30-2022, 09:40 AM

I hate how Himeno dies after last night. Feels like a woke moral-bs decision, a la "she tried to have sex with a minor, so that means she had to die".

.. I.. wtf?

Pretty sure this is a "Here's a sexy, fun character an- lol I killed her. *SHOCK*" scenario that we see every now and again.

Kraco

Wed, 11-30-2022, 10:07 AM

Seemed pretty obvious they were disciples of the Gun Devil.

Are you suggesting the Gun Devil is working for Japan or some other big country? Or running some multi-billion global mafia? Because like I said in the earlier post, some random gang couldn't pull this off.

Now that I'm writing this comment, I realise the Gun Devil could simply be holding the Japanese PM by the balls, basically blackmailing him to do whatever the Gun Devil is asking for or a good chunk of Tokyo will be removed from the map. This might actually explain everything: These new mystery enemies would be government workers, like Makima's team, maybe just a lot shadier. It would explain how they could keep track of Makima's team and strike against all of them at the same time, by the looks of it even knowing how much strength they must have available to beat Makima's team members. Because there's no way the Gun Devil could realistically know all that. Unless there's Information Devil helping the Gun Devil.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 11-30-2022, 12:56 PM

Are you suggesting the Gun Devil is working for Japan or some other big country? Or running some multi-billion global mafia? Because like I said in the earlier post, some random gang couldn't pull this off.I would have described it as more some kind of cult or secret society. What with it being an otherworldly supernatural being.

You act like they were invaded by some kind of army or something. It was, like, 10 people with handguns and two Fiends.

Because there's no way the Gun Devil could realistically know all that.Really? There's NO way that the MAGIC creature that can wipe out cities could also have a way of knowing things?

Especially things like...the location of people that COLLECT HIS BODY PARTS?

Kraco

Wed, 11-30-2022, 01:32 PM

Really? There's NO way that the MAGIC creature that can wipe out cities could also have a way of knowing things?

Especially things like...the location of people that COLLECT HIS BODY PARTS?

What part of a gun involves knowing things supernaturally? I also don't think all of the people attacked were carrying body parts. Or were they? Organising stuff like this isn't as easy as you make it sound like. In fact running an organisation isn't. I suppose there could be a cult if worshipping the Gun Devil can somehow make folks rich and/or powerful. If that's really the case, then it should be easier to wipe it out because nobody's protecting them and they ways of gathering information would be absolutely nothing compared to a national organisation, unless they have a couple of spies in high places.

David75

Wed, 11-30-2022, 10:39 PM

Another solution : Gun devil can take control of random people over large a very large area. Them having guns is the materialisation of his power. Bullshit explanation, but coherent with devils and the powers we've seen so far.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 12-01-2022, 01:22 PM

What part of a gun involves knowing things supernaturally?Yeah, cause the gun part is the important part there, not the devil part. Don't be obtuse.

I also don't think all of the people attacked were carrying body parts.No, but for all we know it can see or hear through it's body parts. Which means it could be aware of anything they planned when one was around.

Kraco

Thu, 12-01-2022, 01:38 PM

Yeah, cause the gun part is the important part there, not the devil part. Don't be obtuse.

No, but for all we know it can see or hear through it's body parts. Which means it could be aware of anything they planned when one was around.

I don't know, it seems to me you are making an already overpowered villain even more powerful. As if it was a demon king in a sword & sorcery fantasy series. What's the point of making the devils based on a very particular thing if the plot doesn't stick to it? When the Gun Devil has the power to erase any city center, it already has a huge amount of influence to use to get things done indirectly. That's far more interesting than it being able to do everything by itself, in addition to the huge destructive power.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 12-01-2022, 05:04 PM

I don't know, it seems to me you are making an already overpowered villain even more powerful. As if it was a demon king in a sword & sorcery fantasy series.He felt like he was supposed to be the series big bad to me. Or at least, the long-term goal.

What's the point of making the devils based on a very particular thing if the plot doesn't stick to it?Dunno. But what part of blood is about making weapons like hammers and swords? But that's still a thing Power does.

That's far more interesting than it being able to do everything by itself, in addition to the huge destructive power.He's also be working in conjunction with other devils. There's already been 3 working with him we know of. Like you said earlier, there could be some kind of Secrets Devil or something.