The Non-Effort of Isekai Anime - Why don't the try more and what are the Good Ones?

[MFauli]

Decided to make a new thread for this since isekaei anime are a big topic in themselves, so not for the recommendations thread. And there's more than recommendation talk here anyway.

I just got done Isekai Yakkyoku and it's one of the worse Isekai anime I watched. Why is it bad? Because: The story just ends, making it a shameless advert for the manga. The hero is once again given all the best powers and doesn't have to put in much work of his own. Everyone likes the hero or quickly grows to like him. And worst of all, the hero never tries to find a way back to his nor spends much time thinking about his old life.

The latter is an especially crass flaw that most modern isekai anime carry: The heroes NEVER try to return to their own world! You basically have to assume that all isekai heroes hated their old world, which imo is both a way too pessimistic outlook at our actual real life and also simply acts as an easy out for not having to explain why the heroes never want to return. When I look back at older quasi-isekai anime, like Vision of Escaflowne or the first season of Digimon, the CORE theme of the story always was: WE MUST RETURN TO OUR WORLD. And that made a lot of sense, because as "cool" as fantasy world may look to an outsider, it's actually pretty scary when you're put inmidst of it.

Of course, this scariness is offset entirely when the heroes of modern isekai anime have god-like abilities and befriend everyone, making the fantasy world nothing but weeb paradise for them.

Now you could say "well, there you have it, they don't want to return because they found their paradise". Yeah, but not only does that still make those heroes super selfish, because meanwhile your parents and family and friends are crying their hearts out over your death (in a realistic depiction, not in the lazy "nah, everyone hated me anyway" way). It also doesn't excuse why hardly any isekai heroes USE their past life knowledge for their new life! And I'm explicitely not talking about a doctor who uses his SPECIAL knowledge for making medicine - that is another horrible trope of isekai anime, where the heroe has ONE gimmick and the whole story is built around it, ugh. No, I mean a normal guy from our world, landning in medieval times and then thinking about all the things that were part of his old life. And more or less applying that knowledge. Not in a gimmick way like Dr Stone, but in a down-to-earth, grounded way, like giving ideas for stuff like planes, motors, or showing new cooking recipes, or basic stuff like "if you wash your hands before eating and bathe in the river twice a week instead of once a year, you'll stay healthier". Also, heroes never talking about their past life with anyone, always keeping it a secret. Whatever reason is used, I jused don't accept it. World full of magic, and you cannot tell you're from another world? Come on. In summary, just DO something more with your past life memories, be it finding a way back or simply surviving. Even if it just makes for a good story for newly found friends.

And then separate from the above, there's the issue that isekai anime always go for the same basic setup and it is soooo boring at this point. 99% of all isekai anime use the "hero dies irl, ends up in medieval world, and there's ONE gimmick". Ugh. There's lots of people complaining about isekai anime at this point, but I'm not one of them, astoundingly. Why? Because IN THEORY isekai anime have soooooo much potential for great stories. It's only that somehow we found ourselves in a situation where isekai equals "hero dies, lands in medieval world, has one gimmick" and creators stopped thinking at that point.

Yet when I think about isekai anime, I think of stories like (fanfiction incoming):
- a story like GATE, but done well (reverse isekai, magic and armor not being useless against modern weapons, one guy not getting all hot girls, generally a more realistic, serious story)
- group of adults is isekai'd in medieval world, have different goals, serious depiction
- timetravel isekai stories, why can't we have people being isekai'd to dinosaur times? Or any of the myriad of historical events? Countless potential here. An ancient Rome-isekai story where a group of students and their professor land in ancient Rome and need to find a way home, but first a way to survive. One or two of the students die in the first couple episodes to set the tone.

And then the most important idea of them all: If your story's hero doesn't want to return to his world, doesn't make us of his past world knowledge, and just goes on to enjoy the new life in a medieval world with magic: DONT MAKE IT AN ISEKAI! Making a proper fantasy-anime is okay, too! To this day, Record of Lodoss War is the best fantasy-anime, but not because it's unsurpassable. Because nobody even tries anymore.

Anyway, that's it for the main body of this OP. I invite all of you to tell us your own opinion about isekai anime, answer to things I said, and ofc giving recommendations: What are Isekai anime you watched that go against the generic stereotype and offer a truly good story that's worth watching? Feel free to write your heart out here. Thanks!

[Ryllharu]

Well, first off, the overwhelming majority of anime is promo materials for the original property, manga or Light Novel or game. That should never surprise you.

Modern Isekai is at its core, Beginner's Fiction. Even the famous ones. Even the "good ones." It's not quite a lazy as LitRPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LitRPG), but since isekai series are often also LitRPGs, you can guess how that turns out.

The biggest name Isekai series most likely have their start on Shōsetsuka ni Narō (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dsetsuka_ni_Nar%C5%8D) specifically. It is very much on par with fanfiction sites, except it is original material. You should absolutely recognize very famous series, generic trash series, and absurdly overrated series from that list.

So why is Modern Isekai lazy? It allows the authors take all the literary shortcuts!


Fish Out of Water protagonist means that the author gets an excuse to go into exposition mode to bring the POV character up to speed. No need to try and naturally introduce setting elements to the audience.
Protagonist has no preconceived attachments to the world so the author can start the story literally anywhere. No messy torn loyalties.
The author can just make a passive character outright. Getting dragged along in the story by other characters instead of initiating any actions or plot points themselves.
Create a decent villain? Either insert character as the villain (as the Villainess sub-genre does), or drop the protagonist in the midst of one-dimensional evil whatevers. Just make the main villain a demon lord or god.
Character development? Nah. LitRPG elements, numerically show the protagonist getting stronger, and literally avoid having to be creative or even come up with any rational reasons for the protagonist to learn new abilities.
Consistency of magic systems? Nah! Just give them a "cheat" ability. Put it in your title in advance to excuse yourself from bad fantasy writing practices.
Kill them off via Truck-kun and you can skip any thought or conflict with wanting to go home. They have nowhere to go. And on top of that, no messy torn loyalties with any preexisting political factions.
Easy power fantasies with cheat abilities.
Avoid any actual struggle or character vulnerabilities with cheat abilities.
Provide a solution of deus ex machina caliber to any threat with cheat abilities.
Thoughtfully written romance? Make them a slave or magically bind them to the protagonist in summoning rituals gone wrong, or instantly save them right at the beginning to fabricate an emotional connection like Suspension Bridge Effect instead of having anything remotely natural develop, which would take some actual writing skill.
And many, many more!


Going for an isekai setup pretty much guarantees that the author can cover up very common beginner novelist mistakes with some of the devices listed above. Or they can even openly use things that would normally get any other manuscript, synopsis, or even conceptual outlines tossed from consideration in a normal novel.

It's fundamentally lazy and easy writing compared to the fantasy, historical, or scifi genres.

The better isekai address some of these shortcuts and integrate them accordingly and are better for it. Some avoid it, but they rarely hit all of them. Just about everyone goes for the Easy Setting Exposition Shortcut.

I've generally shifted to prefer Reincarnation stories over the Transmigrator stories because they deny the author at least some of the above list, but they still utilize many of the same ones in the end.

That list is why Isekai is so plentiful. It creates excuses for bad writing to come off as natural or good writing in fantasy settings. The power-fantasy series are always popular because they just always have been. Asian fiction has always focused on Cultivation-type (xianxia) stories. Baked right into their cultural mythology.

But the good news is that we're starting to get past the generic bottom-of-the-barrel isekai trash and into the self-parody stuff.
- "Reincarnated as a sword" is next season (fall 2022)
- "Reincarnated as a vending machine" anime adaptation just go announced.

But there's more traditional fantasy on the way too that just got announced. Keep an eye out for those.

[MFauli]

Well, first off, the overwhelming majority of anime is promo materials for the original property, manga or Light Novel or game. That should never surprise you.

Modern Isekai is at its core, Beginner's Fiction. Even the famous ones. Even the "good ones." It's not quite a lazy as LitRPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LitRPG), but since isekai series are often also LitRPGs, you can guess how that turns out.

The biggest name Isekai series most likely have their start on Shōsetsuka ni Narō (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dsetsuka_ni_Nar%C5%8D) specifically. It is very much on par with fanfiction sites, except it is original material. You should absolutely recognize very famous series, generic trash series, and absurdly overrated series from that list.

So why is Modern Isekai lazy? It allows the authors take all the literary shortcuts!


Fish Out of Water protagonist means that the author gets an excuse to go into exposition mode to bring the POV character up to speed. No need to try and naturally introduce setting elements to the audience.
Protagonist has no preconceived attachments to the world so the author can start the story literally anywhere. No messy torn loyalties.
The author can just make a passive character outright. Getting dragged along in the story by other characters instead of initiating any actions or plot points themselves.
Create a decent villain? Either insert character as the villain (as the Villainess sub-genre does), or drop the protagonist in the midst of one-dimensional evil whatevers. Just make the main villain a demon lord or god.
Character development? Nah. LitRPG elements, numerically show the protagonist getting stronger, and literally avoid having to be creative or even come up with any rational reasons for the protagonist to learn new abilities.
Consistency of magic systems? Nah! Just give them a "cheat" ability. Put it in your title in advance to excuse yourself from bad fantasy writing practices.
Kill them off via Truck-kun and you can skip any thought or conflict with wanting to go home. They have nowhere to go. And on top of that, no messy torn loyalties with any preexisting political factions.
Easy power fantasies with cheat abilities.
Avoid any actual struggle or character vulnerabilities with cheat abilities.
Provide a solution of deus ex machina caliber to any threat with cheat abilities.
Thoughtfully written romance? Make them a slave or magically bind them to the protagonist in summoning rituals gone wrong, or instantly save them right at the beginning to fabricate an emotional connection like Suspension Bridge Effect instead of having anything remotely natural develop, which would take some actual writing skill.
And many, many more!


Going for an isekai setup pretty much guarantees that the author can cover up very common beginner novelist mistakes with some of the devices listed above. Or they can even openly use things that would normally get any other manuscript, synopsis, or even conceptual outlines tossed from consideration in a normal novel.

It's fundamentally lazy and easy writing compared to the fantasy, historical, or scifi genres.

The better isekai address some of these shortcuts and integrate them accordingly and are better for it. Some avoid it, but they rarely hit all of them. Just about everyone goes for the Easy Setting Exposition Shortcut.

I've generally shifted to prefer Reincarnation stories over the Transmigrator stories because they deny the author at least some of the above list, but they still utilize many of the same ones in the end.

That list is why Isekai is so plentiful. It creates excuses for bad writing to come off as natural or good writing in fantasy settings. The power-fantasy series are always popular because they just always have been. Asian fiction has always focused on Cultivation-type (xianxia) stories. Baked right into their cultural mythology.

But the good news is that we're starting to get past the generic bottom-of-the-barrel isekai trash and into the self-parody stuff.
- "Reincarnated as a sword" is next season (fall 2022)
- "Reincarnated as a vending machine" anime adaptation just go announced.

But there's more traditional fantasy on the way too that just got announced. Keep an eye out for those.

You're listing why isekai is lazy, I was talking about that it doesn't have to. That's what's frustrating. Since you seem to have a better overview, are there really no GREAT fantasy stories out there? Whether they're already adapted or not, doesn't matter.

And halleluja (/s), comedy parodies of isekai anime, that's what we needed :/

PS: If that Shosetsuka ni narou existed for English texts, I'd totally do it lol

[Ryllharu]

You're listing why isekai is lazy, I was talking about that it doesn't have to. That's what's frustrating.

I think you kind of missed my point. They're always going to be lazy. At least a rate of 95%.

Isekai lets sub-par writers cover their narrative, character development, character writing in general, structural, and worldbuilding failings.

I think there are quite a few great fantasy series out there, but "universally" great (read: non-existent) and great-to-me (plentiful) are not the same thing which is why I'm not going to answer.
Some people think Solo Leveling (a prominent LitRPG) is the best thing ever (same people who would list Tower of God as 'teh best' before SL started), while I might say Flying Witch or Hyper Police are phenomenal fantasy manga. They're not even the same genre. There's light fantasy of Reincarnation sub-genre series, there's heavy fantasy of Berserk, or there's even scifi/fantasy of the Chinese/Korean transmigrator stuff.

[MFauli]

I think you kind of missed my point. They're always going to be lazy. At least a rate of 95%.

Isekai lets sub-par writers cover their narrative, character development, character writing in general, structural, and worldbuilding failings.

I think there are quite a few great fantasy series out there, but "universally" great (read: non-existent) and great-to-me (plentiful) are not the same thing which is why I'm not going to answer.
Some people think Solo Leveling (a prominent LitRPG) is the best thing ever (same people who would list Tower of God as 'teh best' before SL started), while I might say Flying Witch or Hyper Police are phenomenal fantasy manga. They're not even the same genre. There's light fantasy of Reincarnation sub-genre series, there's heavy fantasy of Berserk, or there's even scifi/fantasy of the Chinese/Korean transmigrator stuff.

Then let's be more specific: Do have any recommendations for "Record of Lodoss War"-TheBest?

And again, while Isekai, as we can all see, invites laziness, I don't think it needs to be lazy. It's a great concept for all sorts of stories, but somehow we only see like 2% of its potential applied by authors.

[neflight86]

I think you'll have much greater success and satisfaction adjusting your own tastes and looking into other genre(s). For reasons listed above, isekai, as a genre, is a breeding ground for low effort, barely functional storytelling and gets away with this as it has the power to resonate with a substantial demographic (youth and young adult) by virtue of their own lack of desire for sophistication in their entertainment. That sounds really pretentious, and maybe it is, but the fact is, there is a massive audience of young people who were brought up on video games and fantasy tropes, and the novelty of stories adopting them as short-hand for their world building is appealing (or at least not off-putting). Add in that the actual commercial viability of anime is typically dependent on and decided once blu-ray sales begin after broadcast, and are largely historically random, and the anime production committees have little choice but to green light any trash that might be liked by that audience. Hence truck-kun working overtime.

Hopefully that addresses your 'Why don't they try more(harder?)' question. As for the 'good isekai' recommendations... I expect you've already watched most of the cream of that crop, because anything approaching quality is typically talked about here and elsewhere. You might as well dive into regular fantasy at this point, because the line between that and isekai is so blurry as to warrant a visit to the optometrist (they're both grouped together in my brain). Or simply accept that you're probably not going to find high concept fantasy epics with any regularity in the anisphere. As they say, "Don't pan for gold in a toilet; you'll get the wrong nuggets more often than not".

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I ended up watching a lot of these even though most of them are trash, but this season really broke me. Two of the isekai this season were SOOOOO generic I gave up after 2 episodes.

The better ones are the one where there's a "hook" that separates them out. But usually, those hooks don't justify more than a single season. And that's fine. Show me how your twist alters the standard formula, then get out.


Anyway, the "good" ones that I still really look forward to are:

Mushoku Tensei
Re: Zero
KonoSuba
Reincarnated as a Slime

[MFauli]

I think you'll have much greater success and satisfaction adjusting your own tastes and looking into other genre(s). For reasons listed above, isekai, as a genre, is a breeding ground for low effort, barely functional storytelling and gets away with this as it has the power to resonate with a substantial demographic (youth and young adult) by virtue of their own lack of desire for sophistication in their entertainment. That sounds really pretentious, and maybe it is, but the fact is, there is a massive audience of young people who were brought up on video games and fantasy tropes, and the novelty of stories adopting them as short-hand for their world building is appealing (or at least not off-putting). Add in that the actual commercial viability of anime is typically dependent on and decided once blu-ray sales begin after broadcast, and are largely historically random, and the anime production committees have little choice but to green light any trash that might be liked by that audience. Hence truck-kun working overtime.

Hopefully that addresses your 'Why don't they try more(harder?)' question. As for the 'good isekai' recommendations... I expect you've already watched most of the cream of that crop, because anything approaching quality is typically talked about here and elsewhere. You might as well dive into regular fantasy at this point, because the line between that and isekai is so blurry as to warrant a visit to the optometrist (they're both grouped together in my brain). Or simply accept that you're probably not going to find high concept fantasy epics with any regularity in the anisphere. As they say, "Don't pan for gold in a toilet; you'll get the wrong nuggets more often than not".

Feel free to recommend truly great fantasy anime then. Because I don't see much of those either. And pls no feudal Japan or anything with "Nobunaga", ugh.

[DarthEnderX]

Feel free to recommend truly great fantasy anime then.Depends what you consider fantasy.

One Piece and HxH are fantasy anime. Just not in the traditional D&D template.

[MFauli]

Depends what you consider fantasy.

One Piece and HxH are fantasy anime. Just not in the traditional D&D template.

Most importantly you know that I know those, so why recommend? Unless you want to make a complete list of the greatest fantasy-anime which you are also free to do.

If it's for me specifically: I'm asking for SERIOUS fantasy-stories (light-hearted moments are okay, ofc) that tell a journey, with good character development, and without bs like a harem flocking to the MC or MC getting superpowers without effort. Really, look at Record of Lodoss War and Vision of Escaflowne and tell me if there's something similar.

[Death BOO Z]

Great to see such a thread

I think the problem with most isekais isn't the isekai part as much as it's the gamified world part (litrpg I guess). a lot of bad premesis start because of the ridicolous conciet that stats/powers/abilities/levels are absoloute and tranparent, rather than the isekai part. every time there's a story about "my party dumped me because my ability is bad but actually strongest" or "summoned as hero, king said i was uselss, but now amazing", then the thing that moves me out of the story is how unhuman the setting is. it's like those scenes when there are some ugly bandit who attack a female character becuase she doesn't look strong, but then she kicks their asses because she has amazing magic (or worse, she has an S-level strength rating) - it shows how de-attached the story is from itself, don't they know the rules of the world they exist in? the author can spend five chapters on how the MC can combine different abilities togeher when he levels up, but in the end, it's all "go to adventure guild, get card with F rank, advance to A rank in a day". it's a mindless grind of the same content, even the order of the harem girls is a routine (waifu, loli, hero-girl, distant tall girl, other lolis). nothing that stands out, even the amazing cheat ability is standartized into "great at everything" after a few levels.

there are tons of classic displacement stories, escaflowne, rayearth, fushigi yuugi, inuyasha, mar, even zero-no-tsukaime, and as you said, they lean into the outsider angle, even when the characters have special powers. in contrast, there are many "not-isekais" stories that I dump together with isekais, because they would be the same if you added a zero-th chapter about them being hit by a truck, which is where the "my job is classified as weakest, actually super" stories come into, but also stuff like "is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon", which plays out as an isekai.

If anything, I'm more interested in girl-isekai stories, even if entirely generic, the template has a bit more connective tissue to work around, and the isekai part has more weight, either wanting to be villainnes, wanting to escape the role, or just having some emotions toward the new world they inhabit. or a the very least, there is a large enough cast of characters with strong personallities which aren't overwriten by the uber-powers of the reborn princess girl. also, if you squint hard enough you can find a theme in those stories about what society excepts of woman in japan and how they engate with those ideals. whereas boy-isekais are usually "I wish i was born a giga-chad, but also somehow still retained all my intrests in weeb stuff, but it would work out really good for me, and without ever thinking about why I need to escape my reality". a common point with good stories is that the protagainst has something important to them, some goal or target or desire. it doesn't have to be "get home","be strongest" works fine, "meet cute animals" is also a goal, but many stories have "slow-life", which is a weird thing to hang a fantasy story around, because it usually means "I want to re-create the modern life of a japanese teenager without any friends or families that only interacts with the world through consumption of pop-media". but it can work, if the mc actually has the goal, and the story builds on the conflict between the genre and the goal.

I think the saintess/villainess stories are the most interesting sub-genre of the isekai landscape, theres the most meat to work around with, and the strucutered form of the plot actaully helps. a lot of the important roles are pre-baked into it (love intrests, family connections, the rival character, the "help class characters"), and so are the key plot events (enternace ceremony, first meeting the rival, the ball at the end, meeting the king...), so it actually allows a beginner writer to write better, rather than spreading the focus around.


good isekais (manga)
- I'm standing a top a million lives - scenario that's kind of similar to GANTZ, each mission is in the fantasy world with additional players and a wider world. the selling point is that each 'arc' in the fantasy world is explicitly about some sociological issue, like drug abuse, civil war, in-equal economy... so the struggle isn't to bring out the bigger damage numbers, but to understand the situation.
- far away paladin - the high point is that the OP MC is actually going through some interesting stuff in relation to the gods of the world.
- ideal spoonger wife - more of a displacement story than isekai, but still works.
- sengoku komachi kurotan - girl is transported to feaudal japan, becomes an advisor to oda. artwork is bad, but story is good.
- tanya the evil - I think it's really famous and big, so I don't need to explain.
- reborn as a mob character - has some similiarites to tanya in terms of humor, every lie the mc tells when he makes up a bullshit story turns out to be true.

embarrsing to admit I ocassionally read isekais:
- parallel world - guy is the only man in the world and fucks his way into becoming the saviour. I never read the first 100 chapters becuase it felt so dirty, but reading it on a week-to-week basis is ok. I just need to accept that the story is porn-with-plot
- Himekashi (something something) - entire class is transported, MC has sex based powers. never read the first couple of chapters as well, but chapter to chapter is ok.

[Ryllharu]

If it's for me specifically: I'm asking for SERIOUS fantasy-stories (light-hearted moments are okay, ofc) that tell a journey, with good character development, and without bs like a harem flocking to the MC or MC getting superpowers without effort. Really, look at Record of Lodoss War and Vision of Escaflowne and tell me if there's something similar.

Honestly at this point, you're better off consuming the modern versions of what Lodoss really was: A TTRPG Replay. Watching people play D&D, or podcasts. Plenty of well-produced ones to choose from. (edit: They may also be referred to as the "Actual play" genre)

Japan considers Black Summoner as "serious high fantasy."

I do recommend branching out like DBZ suggests, because they don't publish serious high fantasy much anymore. At least not with male leads. Female leads get the serious stories. Male leads get the cheat power fantasies and unearned harems.

Historical Smut, Reincarnated (typically as the villainess, but not always), Time Rewind with a historical setting. Generally, they're all going to be Korean. Except the historical smut, those will be Japanese.

[MFauli]

rayearth, fushigi yuugi, mar, even zero-no-tsukaime

Do these hold up today? Haven't seen them, but when you mention them next to Lodoss and Escaflowne, my interest rises :>


good isekais (manga)
- I'm standing a top a million lives - scenario that's kind of similar to GANTZ, each mission is in the fantasy world with additional players and a wider world. the selling point is that each 'arc' in the fantasy world is explicitly about some sociological issue, like drug abuse, civil war, in-equal economy... so the struggle isn't to bring out the bigger damage numbers, but to understand the situation.
- far away paladin - the high point is that the OP MC is actually going through some interesting stuff in relation to the gods of the world.
- ideal spoonger wife - more of a displacement story than isekai, but still works.
- sengoku komachi kurotan - girl is transported to feaudal japan, becomes an advisor to oda. artwork is bad, but story is good.
- tanya the evil - I think it's really famous and big, so I don't need to explain.
- reborn as a mob character - has some similiarites to tanya in terms of humor, every lie the mc tells when he makes up a bullshit story turns out to be true.

embarrsing to admit I ocassionally read isekais:
- parallel world - guy is the only man in the world and fucks his way into becoming the saviour. I never read the first 100 chapters becuase it felt so dirty, but reading it on a week-to-week basis is ok. I just need to accept that the story is porn-with-plot
- Himekashi (something something) - entire class is transported, MC has sex based powers. never read the first couple of chapters as well, but chapter to chapter is ok.

I'm in chapter 4 of "Paralell Paradise" now and ... lol :D (will probably keep reading xD). However, this manga also highlights one big weakness of isekai: The majority of them feature child or teenager heroes. It's especially egregious in a st ory like Parallel Paradise where I'd much rather see an adult guy fuck all those girls, but even in non-ecchi isekai anime, it's mostly teenage heroes. Although I guess this is an anime-wide problem and can't be blamed on the isekai genre per se.

Are there any good isekai or regular fantasy anime featuring adult heroes? (adult = looks adult; not heroes who look like they could be teenagers as well)

[Ryllharu]

Do these hold up today? Haven't seen them, but when you mention them next to Lodoss and Escaflowne, my interest rises :>

I've only been bringing them up (https://forums.gotwoot.org/showthread.php/23834-The-Season-that-killed-Isekai-Can-the-genre-return-to-Glory?p=566767&viewfull=1#post566767) to you for Years (https://forums.gotwoot.org/showthread.php/15334-Anime-Recommendation-and-Suggestion-Query?p=424043&viewfull=1#post424043).

[Death BOO Z]

Do these hold up today? Haven't seen them, but when you mention them next to Lodoss and Escaflowne, my interest rises :>


No idea if they do, haven't read any of them in ages. But they all have at least one good point to carry them. so even if you don't like the execution, there's something worthwhile in engaging with them. (that being said, not that much of record-of-loddos-wars fan).



I'm in chapter 4 of "Paralell Paradise" now and ... lol :D (will probably keep reading xD). However, this manga also highlights one big weakness of isekai: The majority of them feature child or teenager heroes. It's especially egregious in a st ory like Parallel Paradise where I'd much rather see an adult guy fuck all those girls, but even in non-ecchi isekai anime, it's mostly teenage heroes. Although I guess this is an anime-wide problem and can't be blamed on the isekai genre per se.

Are there any good isekai or regular fantasy anime featuring adult heroes? (adult = looks adult; not heroes who look like they could be teenagers as well)

and that's what you decided to start with? why not far-away-paladin?
as for the age of the main characters, as you said, it'a an anime-wide issue.

sometimes it works, because the hereo is a supposed to have a childish outlook, even with the great power. it usually goes well when the theme is "I missed out on my previous life because i was sick or a shut-in, this time i'll do it right!", so even if the hero was an adult in real life, the parts that he missed out of were the adultsence, and he never experienced any adult conflicts, so it's not so weird. it is weird when a sixty something person does it, and is now a 12 years old and interacts with other 12 y.o. creepy. this is enough of a segway to talk about another sub-genre, the pointless reincarnation. a mc who was an accomplished human and lived an entire life, and reason for re-birth is "I want to do it better". like mastering magic, or getting stronger than whatever level of "strongest" he was. the hook for sympathzing with the protaganist is non-existent.
tanya does this well, it's a 30y.o turning into a 11y.o, but it works. far-away-paladin also works well, he was an adult, but being a teenager works for the story becuase of how inexpereincesd and outsider to the world he's supposed to be.
I think there are some cases when there is adult hero where it's even worse than a teenager hero, a 30y.o who hasn't done anything ever, and wants nothing from his life, and has nothing he values. he then goes on an adventure, and we gradually (i.e. every other episode) learn that he actually has tons of friends (all girls 15 years younger than him) and has amazing achivements (was a teacher to those girls), but despite that still has no desire towards anything, and behaves as if nothing of importance happened anytime in his life.

teenage heros are almost a necessity, even berserk starts with teenage guts.

[MFauli]

Ok, which one's better, Fushigi Yuugi or Magic Knight Rayearth? I'll start the one you tell me right this night. Hurry pls :D

[Ryllharu]

Fushigi Yuugi.

Rayearth is a lot of other people's favorite from 90s anime, so you can't really go wrong.

[KrayZ33]

Feel free to recommend truly great fantasy anime then. Because I don't see much of those either. And pls no feudal Japan or anything with "Nobunaga", ugh.

I'm pretty sure you've seen most of them, they might not be masterpieces but far above the trash (like Smartphone Isekai) you are refering to in your first post.

Let me list some for you and let me start with one you might not have watched yet.

Castlevania - the english dub is very good. Mutliple seasons full of goodness.

And now let me list some you probably know already but that were also pretty/very good. Fantasy/Historic/Semi-real/Isekai settings in random order and random genre mix:

Vinland Saga
Goblin Slayer
Spice and Wolf
Berserk
Fullmetal Alchemist
The Heroic Legend of Arslan
Attack on Titan
Maoyuu Mao Yuusha
Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic
Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash
Record of Gancrest War (still has the best fire-mage character there ever was in anime imho, at least as long as I consider Sypha from Castlevania as an Elementarist)
Maria the Virgin Witch
Rage of Bahamut

I'm leaving out the really old ones because honestly, I can't watch them anymore, anime just doesn't age well... or at least most of the artstyles didn't.
Slayers used to be funny_af though (the english dub more so than the japanese one)

[DarthEnderX]

Most importantly you know that I know those, so why recommend?Kinda all I got...

Not actually a lot of "great" fantasy anime. You already said Lodoss War. And even that's more nostalgic than great.


If it's for me specifically: I'm asking for SERIOUS fantasy-stories (light-hearted moments are okay, ofc) that tell a journey, with good character development, and without bs like a harem flocking to the MC or MC getting superpowers without effort. Really, look at Record of Lodoss War and Vision of Escaflowne and tell me if there's something similar.

Really, look at Record of Lodoss War and Vision of Escaflowne and tell me if there's something similar.I'm not sure there is...

If there was, you'd probably already know about it. Like Berserk.

Both Dragon Quests are that. But I wouldn't call them great. But Dragon Quest: Legend of the Hero Abel is as nostalgic as Lodoss is for me.

[Kraco]

What a thread... Ryll already said as much, but I'll underline it: isekai is trash. That's why people say: isekai trash. All of it. No serious author will touch is anymore, I imagine. It's the epitome of escapism literature because the very core of the setting is an ordinary person from our world getting transported in some way to a fantasy world. How much more directly could an author point at a reader and say: "Imagine this happening to you." The exceedingly commonplace game mechanics element makes it even worse because lots of people are familiar with games and love to play them.

Another example of why it's pure escapism literature are the slow life isekai series, which are a dime a dozen. The point is that pretty much nothing happens in the series or if some problems do occur, the MC sorts them out promptly and the end result is positive. For example if an enemy appears, he/she turns into an ally at the end of the short arc. These series are written for the millions of Japanese students and black company slaves dying of stress.

Nonetheless, I do love isekai as a genre. I guess that shows how efficient the format is. Sure, I'm bored to death by the instantly OP MCs, especially those with cheats outside of the common sense of the new world. But I still read a bunch of such series as well. If an isekai series seems to be slave girl heavy right from the description or the first chapters, I'll skip it. I can't stand that. There are so many isekai manga (and their original novel) series that there's something for everyone, as long as you understand it's never going to be above the level of pulp literature.

[MFauli]

Watched episode 1 of Fushigi Yuugi. It definitely doesn't feel like a high quality story when I compare it to Escaflowne; however, when I compare it to our modern isekai trash like Yakkyoku, it's massive step up. If only because of the superior character designs. Girls have a nose, OMG°!!1


What a thread... Ryll already said as much, but I'll underline it: isekai is trash. That's why people say: isekai trash. All of it. No serious author will touch is anymore, I imagine. It's the epitome of escapism literature because the very core of the setting is an ordinary person from our world getting transported in some way to a fantasy world. How much more directly could an author point at a reader and say: "Imagine this happening to you."

And that is FREAKING EXCITING. That's why I disagree with the whole "isekai is inherently trash". It's not. Those in power make it trash.

The biggest issue with isekai that there IS a template. Let me try:

- teenage hero
- generic medieval world that doesn't matter
- battle and magic not reliant on skill, but videogame-like system, allowing the hero to get powerful without effort
- following from above: being overpowered
- loved by all girls he meets
- shows no attachment to previous life
- over-the-top, often comical, cartoonish feel

Here's the thing: NONE of the above points are required for an isekai story. It doesn't neccesate any of these. Making a great isekai story would be as "easy" (not per se easy, because writing a good story takes actual effort, ofc) as NOT doing the points I mentioned. Just imagine the following:

- adult hero, age 40
- medieval world with rich lore with a couple of peculiarities
- people do battles, but hero needs to learn how to handle a sword, a bow, etc
- he/she's not overpowered, constantly at danger, needs to rely on new found friends
- gets a crush on a girl, but it isn't easily reciprocate; better even: romance interest changes over the course of the story, isn't set in stone from episode 1
- often reminisces about his/her old life, family, friends; actually wants to find a way back
- down-to-earth presentation; cannot defeat opponents by loud screaming and a fullscreen-effect, no singular overpowered characters that only a chosen group of heroes can match

Take this and it'd be a fantastic anime. And none of this took much thinking efforts, I just wrote this down as it came to my mind. Someone actually sitting down to write a story would easily come up with more interesting intricacies even. But nobody tries.

Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?

[Ryllharu]

Those in power make it trash.
Eh? You make it sound like there's a secret cabal who graces what gets greenlit for an anime cash-in adaptation based on their personal preferences.

Like I said in the much earlier post, most of these are created by self-publisher authors. Their Web Novel (WN) gets big, someone offers to publish it officially as a Light Novel (LN), it gets (barely) improved with an editor, they might get paired with good illustrator, makes a ton of money, and a bunch of them get an anime once they're popular. They might get a manga adaptation as a cross-promotion for a different artist.

What gets written is what sells, and what sells is what gets picked up by publishers.

No different from traditional novel publishers. Except the illustrator part.


Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?
Production Committees. Funimation published a pretty decent article (https://blog.funimation.com/2020/03/12/what-does-it-mean-to-be-on-an-anime-production-committee-fruits-basket-fire-force/) on it, since they're often involved in them now.

Because they pick a product to make money on with the least risk of failure, proliferate the production of merch/goods, or to market/promo existing LNs/Manga/Videogames. They multiply the returns on those doing well, attempt a recovery of those starting to slump, or as part of a mixed media project.
The OP/EDs are selected in exactly the same way. To promote a popular act or band using an existing song; the anime production committee is successfully lobbied by those bands/producers to write a corresponding title to get the musical act promoted; or both collaborate to combine popular franchise and popular act to cross-promote and encourage consumption for both.

As Western companies get more heavily involved on those Production Committees, we get increasingly odd selections. Like the crap adaptation of Hoshi no Samidare, a series that ended some time ago, but western fans constantly clamored for their desire for an anime. And it got a lowest-bidder production house. But hey, it renewed some Crunchyroll subscriptions no doubt.

[MFauli]

Ryll, I understand the basic concept of why something is chosen, I've been following video game sales for over 20 years now. But with isekai anime it's like, if I used a video game analogy, an industry where only shitty BandaiNamco arena fighters are made and Nintendo-games don't exist. And yet despite costing A LOT more money to make, Nintendo makes games like Breath of the Wild, Xenoblade 3 or Mario Odyssey, games that are clearly made with more than cheap profit in mind.

So that's what I don't understand: Why is there nobody in the anime industry that *wants* to adapt a great story? You'd think that every 10 shitty isekai, there'd be a good one, but even that's not the case. A shitty ecchi pedo show like Mushoku Tensei is celebrated as one of the best isekai, that says it all.

Is the anime business really this creatively bankrupt that they ONLY choose lightnovels that fit the existing template and then go with that because it makes money? I just don't want to believe that.

[Ryllharu]

Is the anime business really this creatively bankrupt that they ONLY choose lightnovels that fit the existing template and then go with that because it makes money? I just don't want to believe that.
Yes. They want to make money, they want to stay in business, they don't want to be the next Gainax or GONZO.

When they want to do original series, they do what interests them (or what sells). That might be Odd Taxi, Lycoris Recoil, Vivy, Zombie Land Saga, or Girls und Panzer. And a lot of the time those passion projects flop.

They're not "creatively bankrupt" because they don't do what you want them to do or believe they should be doing.

[Kraco]

That's why I disagree with the whole "isekai is inherently trash". It's not. Those in power make it trash.

It wasn't trash in the beginning. Isekai's roots are as deep as any other literature genre's. Isekai exists in folklore. You could also say Divine Comedy is a type of isekai. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is a modern archetype. It wasn't trash in the beginning in the context of manga/anime either. It's just my personal opinion, but it probably wasn't yet considered trash when Sword Art Online appeared. It's the structure of the Japanese entertainment industry that made it trash.

Generally speaking when a work of fictional literature is praised by critics, literature researches, and other authors, it needs not only be an inspired work that fulfills all the conditions of good writing, it also typically needs to reach beyond entertainment. It needs to be an allegory, to analyse/criticise the contemporary society and politics. Many works of science fiction are considered to be such: they are considered to emphasize what's wrong about the current world. There's no reason why isekai couldn't do everything mentioned, but in reality it's just cheap escapism literature, like I said earlier.



Take this and it'd be a fantastic anime. And none of this took much thinking efforts, I just wrote this down as it came to my mind. Someone actually sitting down to write a story would easily come up with more interesting intricacies even. But nobody tries.

Since you guys seem to know everything about the lightnovel market, can you say who it is that decides which light novels get adapted to anime-form? Surely there are some lightnovels that are closer to what I desire, but those in power keep choosing the same old dreck. Who and why?

Yeah, nobody does. Either nobody takes it seriously in Japan anymore, or it's futile even if someone does. When I think about it, I always think about Bakuman, which explained, all those years ago, how haphazard the industry is and how it practically kills the authors' genuine innovation and desire to produce great, novel works.

Maybe you should have a look at the manga "Karate Survivor in Another World". It might amuse you for a little while because it ticks at least a couple of your boxes, even if not all, obviously (because masterpiece isekai isn't produced in any form). I don't believe it's a popular manga in Japan or anywhere. It didn't even get a real English translator group.

Characters wanting to get back does exist in some isekai, but it's superficial. The whole point of the story, typically, is to present a more interesting world for the reader struggling with the pressures of the Japanese society, so it clashes with that to have the character try to get back. Thus most of the time it's there just to make the character supposedly more believable psychologically. In the more edgelordish works you'd think the MC wanted to get back (because he's immediately betrayed and goes through various forms of suffering), but naturally in these works the MC still becomes a god among men soon enough, so why bother?

[MFauli]

Characters wanting to get back does exist in some isekai, but it's superficial. The whole point of the story, typically, is to present a more interesting world for the reader struggling with the pressures of the Japanese society, so it clashes with that to have the character try to get back. Thus most of the time it's there just to make the character supposedly more believable psychologically. In the more edgelordish works you'd think the MC wanted to get back (because he's immediately betrayed and goes through various forms of suffering), but naturally in these works the MC still becomes a god among men soon enough, so why bother?

That's what I don't get though: Wouldn't it be SUPER AWESOME if an isekai hero returned to his world, except with his then newfound confidence and physical (and maybe even magical) abilities? Think of Isekai Ojisan, except in a serious story. What satisfying payoff would that be when the mc returns and all those people that previously shunned him, hated him, called him a loser, are now shown what his true potential was, if only his environment hadn't be shitty/toxic?

The name won't come to me, but there's a good, old anime series that is kinda like that, where the heroes return to the real world in the middle of the anime, then go back to the magical world. Heck, Digimon does it, too, although there's less societal drama.

Really, for me, the Isekai genre is a well of infinite creativity. I won't ever be able to cope with how the industry refuses to tap its potential.

[Kraco]

That's what I don't get though: Wouldn't it be SUPER AWESOME if an isekai hero returned to his world, except with his then newfound confidence and physical (and maybe even magical) abilities? Think of Isekai Ojisan, except in a serious story. What satisfying payoff would that be when the mc returns and all those people that previously shunned him, hated him, called him a loser, are now shown what his true potential was, if only his environment hadn't be shitty/toxic?

If the attraction of the story is to live another, more fulfilling life in a new world, isn't it pointless to return? If we automatically exclude reincarnation ones, or even possession ones, and only considering the summoning stories, then there might be some sense in it. And indeed that's where you occasionally have those MCs who are at least superficially trying to find a way to return. Still, the fact remains that the point is a better world where the character lives a better life. Just returning to show your old acquiantances that you are a chad now is hardly worth it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all isekai MCs were shunned or bullied. Many of them are simply ordinary Japanese people, who were hit by a truck or got summoned. They are just tired of the eternal rat race, which is the Japanese society.

If we think about old series, then things are different. It would be before the time isekai became trash. Before it became cheap escapism literature. Such isekai would typically employ the normal structure of fiction, which includes character growth and struggle. It's not the instant gratification overpowered MC who can solve everybody problem because he's so awesome. Old isekai is just fantasy, which happened to have a person or persons transferring to another world. The main point of the story isn't that, though, it's the adventure.

Returning to show your bullies who is the boss would suit the edgelord niche genre better. Quite often the bullies are taken to the new world as well, though, removing the need to return to our world. Although I have read a bunch of edgelord manga, I don't get into it that much, psychologically, so I can't really say if being the king in the new world or returning here to have a revenge would be more satisfying for the intended audience. I was never bullied, so I've no business trying to speak for the victims. Surprisingly enough few such series seem to have returnees. Or maybe it's just because the series haven't ended yet, haha.

[Death BOO Z]

MFauli, you keep talking about having an adult (non-teenager) hero, but how many animes have that? most of the protagonists in any genre are middle\high schoolers, occasionally some young adults.
Gutts starts the story as a teenager, Kenshiro is probably early 20's, Kenshin is mid twenties at most. there are some protagonists which are the high twenties, but those belong in office life stories, maybe.

Another shity part of isekais is the art, not that it's bad. but it's bland. the person who writes the story isn't the illustrator, so the art doesn't enhance the action. and in many cases, the art is just the same. it's the same europe inspired fantasy world with japanese school uniforms. the guild looks the same (there is always a guild), the streets look the same, and the prison cell has bars disappearing to show the faces behined it. It sometimes feels like they have some photos and they run it through an image filter to create backgrounds.

Isekai Ojisan is great, because it actually says something about the type of heros the genre sends to isekai adventures. he's a Japanese otaku, who was probably slightly awkward as a normal person, but faced with the hell which was the other world, he retreated further into himself, up to the level where he couldn't recognize when others wanted to open up to him. his suffering is self-inflicted, because that's how he perceived his life.

"return to revenge" story is mostly self-defeating as a plot. you went to another world, met people, made friends, overcame hardships, learned stuff about yourself, had to face enemies who hated you and bridge those differences. having to come back to the real world just to be mean to other kids is pathetic. it shows that the adventure didn't change you. "the real treasure was the friends we made on the journey" is a cliché, but it's true for most stories.

[MFauli]

If the attraction of the story is to live another, more fulfilling life in a new world, isn't it pointless to return?

You keep going in circles, Kraco.

WHY must every isekai anime be like you say? "Isn't it pointless to return?" - maybe for 99% of isekai anime it is. But why cannot there be one where it's not pointless?

@Death Boo: Not sure why you talk about "revenge". Just someone who was weak and bullied and an outcast, returning and being a great, strong person.

[Kraco]

WHY must every isekai anime be like you say? "Isn't it pointless to return?" - maybe for 99% of isekai anime it is. But why cannot there be one where it's not pointless?

I don't know why they must be like that, but out of the countless isekai manga I've read, fully or partially, not many have been about successfully returning. If there are many web novels with successful returnees, they haven't gained enough popularity to become manga or anime. So, that's just how it is. It boils down to the laws of the Japanese entertainment industry and what the Japanese audience wants to read and watch.

Personally I don't mind. I read isekai for the fantasy world adventure, so if the characters return to Earth, it's not anymore fantasy world adventure. It's also why I'm not so interested in the "restaurant between two worlds" kind of isekai.

[Death BOO Z]

what would "great, strong person" mean in this context? in some ways this is contradictory to the dna of the genre.

if the hero goes through all of the adventure, just to learn real human skills and discover the worth of honest work, and then he returns to a world where those skills are appreciated (he is able to sit and study six hours for his exams, she gathers the courage and asks the boy out, they mend the broken relationship with the family), then that's an endorsement of the state of the world (japan), and that doesn't mesh well with the escapism nature of the genre. if the actual world is a decent place where decent people are rewarded, then what does it say about the reader who wishes to get away from it? this works as an epilogue to a story, but if you try to make it into the actual plot, the whole thing deflates.
(see also: Tanya the evil)

in contrast, a "revenge-ing" story fits the mold of the genre, the hero is good but the world he lives in is bad, but in another world he can be rewarded for his innate goodness (which is being the author avatar/self insert), and he gains the power to dispense justice over those who mistreated him. now he has the power to cruel, and the reader can delight in that just like how he previously delighted in the hero being OP and having SSS cheat skills and being amazing, or like how young readers enjoy gutts slaying 100 soldiers in a horrible fashion. brutality is marketable.

lets say the hero was bullied at the beginning of the story, then we would eventually want the plot point to conclude. he comes back from the fantasy world after becoming strong.
what are the options?
1. he defeats the bullies and walks into the sunset. end of story.
2. he beats the shit out of them and humiliates them, every day in school is him winning over those who once looked down on him.
3. he helps the bullies overcome the issues that made them bad people, and he spends the story helping others.
4. he beats the bullies once, they no longer bother him, and he goes on with his life. what happens now?

i can't imagine the story at point 4. and even points 2,3 are weird, because they represent a shift in setting and tone that would be incompatible with the isekai fantasy story that was going on so far.

there is a story 'a returner's magic remains the strongest' (or something), mc comes back, beats the bullies from the moment before he was isekaid, and then the story begins. with the story being "ordinary high school student has amazing powers and discovers there is an underground secret world in the shadows of our society, and he fights an evil organization of magic powered people along with new allies". so it's basically bleach\flame of recca\bosuo renkin\yyh or any other manga ever.

[Ryllharu]

The funniest part of all this to me is that the joke isekai ("non-serious" as MFauli has been calling them), actually do all the things he wants.

- Adult protagonists, want to return home, growth in the other world shows of more of their potential when (or if) they return, challenge their issues head on, have mature character growth as the story progresses, etc.

Isekai Ojisan (it's low-key and it is there, but the story is a slow burn), Fantasy Bishoujo Juniku Ojisan to (it's very obvious here and actually well-done, but series is still open ended). There's a couple others that are manga/manwha only and I can't remember the name of them at the moment.


Personally I don't mind. I read isekai for the fantasy world adventure, so if the characters return to Earth, it's not anymore fantasy world adventure. It's also why I'm not so interested in the "restaurant between two worlds" kind of isekai.
The interesting thing about Restaurant in Another World specifically is that it is actually a reverse-isekai and that individual never wanted to go back home. The other denizens who cross always do go back home at the end of their shifts or visits.


@Death Boo: Not sure why you talk about "revenge". Just someone who was weak and bullied and an outcast, returning and being a great, strong person.


"return to revenge" story is mostly self-defeating as a plot. you went to another world, met people, made friends, overcame hardships, learned stuff about yourself, had to face enemies who hated you and bridge those differences. having to come back to the real world just to be mean to other kids is pathetic. it shows that the adventure didn't change you. "the real treasure was the friends we made on the journey" is a cliché, but it's true for most stories.
DBZ already covered one angle, it represents a reverse in growth to show off (or revenge) that a power-fantasy in an escapist world fixed what hard work, desperation, diligence, or adversity in the real world couldn't do. But it also undermines character growth on the whole. If only an external experience and superpowers, fawning harem or individual romantic interests, and a fabricated and simplified world changes a person, was there any actual personal growth achieved at all? It's typically very shallow: "I got powers and that gave me confidence I never had before." Nerds always become attractive bishonen through some handwave bullshit that's almost always LitRPG garbage.

That's actually a problem I have with a lot of Korean power-fantasy manwha and why they always lose my interest over time as they drag out. They only numerically improve. They improve in appearance and power, but it's all a facade that avoids legitimate character growth. The authors gloss over any actual character development.

Give me a nerd who turns into a bishonen and is still a fucking coward until they actually overcome their trauma mentally. Oh wait, Mushoku Tensei actually did that, which is why I commended it for doing so.

edit:

lets say the hero was bullied at the beginning of the story, then we would eventually want the plot point to conclude. he comes back from the fantasy world after becoming strong.
what are the options?
1. he defeats the bullies and walks into the sunset. end of story.
2. he beats the shit out of them and humiliates them, every day in school is him winning over those who once looked down on him.
3. he helps the bullies overcome the issues that made them bad people, and he spends the story helping others.
4. he beats the bullies once, they no longer bother him, and he goes on with his life. what happens now?

i can't imagine the story at point 4. and even points 2,3 are weird, because they represent a shift in setting and tone that would be incompatible with the isekai fantasy story that was going on so far.

there is a story 'a returner's magic remains the strongest' (or something), mc comes back, beats the bullies from the moment before he was isekaid, and then the story begins. with the story being "ordinary high school student has amazing powers and discovers there is an underground secret world in the shadows of our society, and he fights an evil organization of magic powered people along with new allies". so it's basically bleach\flame of recca\bosuo renkin\yyh or any other manga ever.
Agreed.

Xianxia and other martial arts series just fundamentally do this better. There's no need to do an isekai element with them because that's a waste of time getting to the actual plot, so they just don't get written.

[Kraco]

The revenge/edgelord type specifically can't have real character growth because they are all about the MC getting their revenge in the most straightforward sense imaginable. Of course he also is rewarded in the process by gaining awesome powers, everybody respecting/fearing him, and a harem of girls surrounding him. If you try to insert (mental) character growth into that, you risk losing the audience. In Japan, the bullying victims have heard a thousand times that they need to grow up and deal with it. They don't want to read the same thing in their comfort material.

[Ryllharu]

If you try to insert (mental) character growth into that, you risk losing the audience. In Japan, the bullying victims have heard a thousand times that they need to grow up and deal with it. They don't want to read the same thing in their comfort material.
It worked in GTO, which is great comfort material, just of a more relatable sort. Character growth and a counterargument to Japanese societal norm concerning bullying.

Isekais just aren't well written, because they enable BAD writing.

[MFauli]

omg, guys, I never meant "getting revenge". Alright, let me go full fanfic so I can get you to understand what I meant:

- Cour 1: Introduction to hero who's a total loser irl. Hero lands in isekai, is totally lost. He's weak, alien to the world, and must give his all to survive
- Cour 2: Hero has found his place, some friends, and follows a clearly formulated goal that has nothing to do with himself
- Cour 3: Hero surprisingly finds lead that hints at a way to return to his own world. Ends with successful return
- Cour 4: With newfound confidence and abilities, hero returns to family and friends. Complex emotional reactions, from "who is that?", to "oh no the loser is back" to "I'm so glad youre alive". No comically evil family. Entire cour shows hero readjusting to our world again, except with the social skills he acquired during the months of hardship in the isekai. Family and friends will have moments of realization, like "he grew so much as a person. Maybe we were at fault, too ...", while there might also be bullies that hero can fend off with ease thanks to his new physical prowess (without brutally beating them up).
- Cour 5: Evil villain threatens to follow from isekai into real word, therefore hero must return to isekai. Says goodbye to everyone and the he probably won't return. Heartfelt farewells with family and friends, and we get to see what happened in the isekai that we grow to know during the first 3 cours. The end.

That's what I mean. You're all thinking in the frameset of a typical cheap, shallow isekai story that runs for 13 episodes, 26 at best. I imagine a full-blown fantasy adventure, and returning doesn't result in some shortlived, cartoonish "revenge", but actually complex feelings. Think less Isekai Yakkyoku and more Claymore/Lodoss.

[Ryllharu]

I guess if you consider Rosaria + Vampire an isekai, yes, that exists. Manga only.

But "Cour 4" is like a handful of chapters.

[MFauli]

I guess if you consider Rosaria + Vampire an isekai, yes, that exists. Manga only.

But "Cour 4" is like a handful of chapters.

Rosario is an episodic ecchi-comedy anime, not sure how after everything you got the impression that would be anything close to what I'm talking about.

[Ryllharu]

It is an isekai, or at least a "parallel world" series. Which is what an isekai is. It's just not a high fantasy one.

But yes, it hits every point. Not sure if you read the manga to completion, but you'd know I'm right if you had.

The pace and tone of the first cour of the anime and where the manga ends are shockingly different.

[Kraco]

It worked in GTO, which is great comfort material, just of a more relatable sort. Character growth and a counterargument to Japanese societal norm concerning bullying.

Isekais just aren't well written, because they enable BAD writing.

What does GTO have to do with isekai? Or from the opposite perspective, how could you write a story like GTO by making it work like an isekai series? The full name of it is Great Teacher Onizuka. It's obviously not going to be about a bullied kid enabled to exact brutal, bloody revenge, practically becoming a dictator himself. I said before that since I wasn't a bullied kid, I can't really imagine their thought processes, so I might not know what I'm talking about, but is GTO a series aimed at bullying victims? They never had a great teacher helping them. They only had the stock Japanese teacher, whose greatest worry is the reputation of the school and who would tell the bullied kid that it's his/her own fault that they are bullied and they should suck it up. In other word, teachers were their enemies as well, or at least not allies. I can honestly see the attraction of edgelord manga much better. GTO was great fun, for sure, for someone who wasn't bullied but saw bullying from a third person perspective. That I'm not denying.

[Death BOO Z]

gonna use this thread to talk about isekai in general.

just finished reading the 70something chapters of "Saving 80000 Gold Coins In The Different World For My Old Age", which is very similar to "reincarnated with potion making cheat ability" by the same author. I like both stories, if only for how unapologetic they are about abusing the power the MC has and introducing society breaking changes to the world. but that got me thinking about the fantasy element, because on the surface, they aren't about a power fantasy, the protagonist girl is powerful and nearly invincible, but the story doesn't relish in that power, it helps solve problems, but it's not important for the hero. instead, the focus / main activity of the hero is work. she wants to run a small business, interact with others, have cute girls as employees, etc... which is kind of a weird power fantasy to have.
but then there's another thing, it's not just owning a business, it's about being protected by nobles, having powerful people as friends, being able to throw that clout around when some asshole businessman tries to intimidate her, or being able to fire and retaliate against someone who tried taking advantage of her being a young, being a girl, being poor. and on the flipside of it, she's not just selling 100yen stuff at a high markup, she's offering consultation, she's making task reforms, she's giving orders, and being listened to.
so maybe that's the fantasy part? that would also cover "ascendance of the bookworm" and "sengoku komachi kuroutan". maybe it's not about escaping the work-force grind, and it's about being valued for being part of it?

[Kraco]

There's a difference between being a black company slave (or feeling like being one) and being a respectable employee or business owner with humane working hours and prospects. Most of the slow life isekai series still have the MC do something meaningful.

[Ryllharu]

80,000 Gold Coins got an anime adaptation announced a few days ago, for what it's worth.

Variant of both the transmigration and Villainess reincarnation genres that I've become quite fond of is, "Please Don't Come to the Villainess' Stationery Store" which just finished its first manwha season.

Nice variety there because the lead's primary ambition is not to become wealthy, powerful, win over a love interest, etc. Her only goal is to make school children happy by running a candy store.

1982

Her simple and low-level goals obviously don't go quite as planned.

[Death BOO Z]

i'm just gonna treat this like a spot to complain about isekai stories. maybe it'll have a point, probably not.

finished reading 20 chapters of "Full Clearing Another World under a Goddess with Zero Believers".
it has some good isekai parts, but it's dragged down the litrpg parts.
I like stories where the whole class gets transported, it keeps the characters grounded, they don't get to be so OP so fast, and there is potential for some great dynamics. I also like the "story" about becoming a follower of a forgotten goddess. it works well to direct the story to a goal. and there's even one really good chapters where a character talks about the family there were isekaid into and there no mention of skills or stats, just human interaction and emotions. which is great.

but it's weighted down by the normal bad parts, visible stats and skill levels, characters who know too much about the genre, and the abilities that the MC has:
1. the ability to keep a calm mind at all times - which means that there is never a reason for him to show emotion, anger, fear, happiness, loneliness , anything that would make him human is dulled out so that he could always be the "perfect strategy character".
2. the ability to see the world as an RPG - in terms of in-universe, it makes him perceive the world as if he was playing a video game, so he can't be sneaked on, he can see a minimap, etc... in terms of story, rather than actually make decisions, he literately has to push a button to make the plot happen - he needs to choose "engage in fight" before the action can start, or "help lady in distress". it's another form of escaping from character driven story.

and the worse part is the story acknowledges this. they say explicitly that these two skills allow the hero to be "removed" from his feelings and what's happening around him, so he experiences them as if it was happening to character in a game rather than to himself. they know it.
art is meh, nothing offensive, but no visual style to write home about, very realistic images of the streets and inns, but lacking anything to set it apart.

there is a better, simpler, clearer story hiding inside, but the genre is too cowardly to embrace it.

[MFauli]

i'm just gonna treat this like a spot to complain about isekai stories. maybe it'll have a point, probably not.

finished reading 20 chapters of "Full Clearing Another World under a Goddess with Zero Believers".
it has some good isekai parts, but it's dragged down the litrpg parts.
I like stories where the whole class gets transported, it keeps the characters grounded, they don't get to be so OP so fast, and there is potential for some great dynamics. I also like the "story" about becoming a follower of a forgotten goddess. it works well to direct the story to a goal. and there's even one really good chapters where a character talks about the family there were isekaid into and there no mention of skills or stats, just human interaction and emotions. which is great.

but it's weighted down by the normal bad parts, visible stats and skill levels, characters who know too much about the genre, and the abilities that the MC has:
1. the ability to keep a calm mind at all times - which means that there is never a reason for him to show emotion, anger, fear, happiness, loneliness , anything that would make him human is dulled out so that he could always be the "perfect strategy character".
2. the ability to see the world as an RPG - in terms of in-universe, it makes him perceive the world as if he was playing a video game, so he can't be sneaked on, he can see a minimap, etc... in terms of story, rather than actually make decisions, he literately has to push a button to make the plot happen - he needs to choose "engage in fight" before the action can start, or "help lady in distress". it's another form of escaping from character driven story.

and the worse part is the story acknowledges this. they say explicitly that these two skills allow the hero to be "removed" from his feelings and what's happening around him, so he experiences them as if it was happening to character in a game rather than to himself. they know it.
art is meh, nothing offensive, but no visual style to write home about, very realistic images of the streets and inns, but lacking anything to set it apart.

there is a better, simpler, clearer story hiding inside, but the genre is too cowardly to embrace it.

Just reading this makes me hate this story :D

Why the fuck can't people write good isekai stories?`:/

Give me an isekai where an isekai portal opens somewhere and a rich guy buys the area, then builds a mansion around the portal and create an organization where he employs people from the real world to go to the isekai to find him treasures and such. Greed Island-like, without the baggage.

Or another attempt of an isekai portal opening and the government reacting to it, except not in the shitty way that GATE did.

Or in general, ADULT heroes going to an isekai and experiencing adventure. I'm so fucking sick of teenage/low-20s heroes that all have the same "generic handsome" look. UGh

[Ryllharu]

Just watch Dog Days for a palette cleanser.

[MFauli]

Just watch Dog Days for a palette cleanser.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0RHMmtaJB8

wat

[Ryllharu]

The isekai anime obviously. It has 3 seasons.

No edgelord shit. No LitRPG stats. No cheat abilities, kinda.


https://youtu.be/GPC43RbC1l4

[MFauli]

The isekai anime obviously. It has 3 seasons.

No edgelord shit. No LitRPG stats. No cheat abilities, kinda.


https://youtu.be/GPC43RbC1l4


Dear god, Ryll, those are the worst character designs possible >_> Everyone got the same MOE face >_<

The song is great though. Maybe I'll look into it in the future, but with a new season starting and Fushigi Yuugi ahead, I'm well served. Thx anyway.

[Kraco]

the government reacting to it, except not in the shitty way that GATE did.

What exactly did Gate do wrong? It's pretty much what most governments in democratic countries would do. But then again, your description sounds like you wanted the portal to open in some godforsaken dictatorship, where the big man would send robber-murderer-pillagers in, not saddled with modern nonsense like respect for human rights, and they would hunt, rape, rob, and enslave the underdeveloped locals. Basically it would then be a traditional isekai with a demon lord invasion, with the demon lord being that dictator from our world and the demon army his underlings. That would be far worse and more uninspired than Gate.


Give me an isekai where an isekai portal opens somewhere and a rich guy buys the area, then builds a mansion around the portal and create an organization where he employs people from the real world to go to the isekai to find him treasures and such. Greed Island-like, without the baggage.

What I described above is the one and only scenario where an individual would be allowed to control the portal.

[MFauli]

What exactly did Gate do wrong? It's pretty much what most governments in democratic countries would do. But then again, your description sounds like you wanted the portal to open in some godforsaken dictatorship, where the big man would send robber-murderer-pillagers in, not saddled with modern nonsense like respect for human rights, and they would hunt, rape, rob, and enslave the underdeveloped locals. Basically it would then be a traditional isekai with a demon lord invasion, with the demon lord being that dictator from our world and the demon army his underlings. That would be far worse and more uninspired than Gate.

No, you're describing GATE here, except GATE disguised all the bad shit under "we're the government and the hot girls like our government hero". What GATE did do wrong? Come on, read the thread, we went through all that. Predominantly: Not send in troops to genocide the male population, because instead of retreating and letting people of this other world do their own politics, you're bloodlusting assholes. The "government" in GATE acted like an extraterrestrial lifeform that comes to aid China against the USA, instead of respecting our world's politics. It might be morally difficult, but that's what state-level relations are like, see Uighurs, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc..

GATE simplified all these matters to "I'm the government's dictator hero and I like the girls of this isekai country, so let's murder a 100k enemy soldiers, lol".

And pls let this be the end of further GATE discourse, the thread has it all.


What I described above is the one and only scenario where an individual would be allowed to control the portal.

Lol. "What I say is THE ONE AND ONLY scenario" :D Kraco, to add just one other scenario: The gate isn't publically known about. What now? Scenario #2 outta nowhere! ;D

[Ryllharu]

It's not a particularly good anime, but Outbreak Company is an interesting comparison to GATE.

[Kraco]

Lol. "What I say is THE ONE AND ONLY scenario" :D Kraco, to add just one other scenario: The gate isn't publically known about. What now? Scenario #2 outta nowhere! ;D

What exactly would the show be all about then if nobody knew about the gate? Anyone keeping such a thing hidden would be either a criminal or an opportunist living in an underdeveloped country where there are few laws (more or less anarchy). However, as soon as the "owner" started to send people in, it's inevitable the news would leak. There's no honour among criminals, after all. If the gate didn't open in the middle of a big city, like in Gate, a government possibly could keep it hidden, at least for a time. It would require relatively little activity with minimal personality to stop leaks. I suppose you could write a story about such a case, but in the end it wouldn't be that much different from a bunch of isekai series we already have. Gate was what it was precisely because everybody knew. The other world made sure of that by invading first through the gate with full military strength.

[KrayZ33]

What exactly would the show be all about then if nobody knew about the gate? Anyone keeping such a thing hidden would be either a criminal or an opportunist living in an underdeveloped country where there are few laws (more or less anarchy). However, as soon as the "owner" started to send people in, it's inevitable the news would leak. There's no honour among criminals, after all. If the gate didn't open in the middle of a big city, like in Gate, a government possibly could keep it hidden, at least for a time. It would require relatively little activity with minimal personality to stop leaks. I suppose you could write a story about such a case, but in the end it wouldn't be that much different from a bunch of isekai series we already have. Gate was what it was precisely because everybody knew. The other world made sure of that by invading first through the gate with full military strength.

I'm not an avid Stargate watcher, but isn't that thing basically unknown to the public?
At least for the longest time?

[MFauli]

What exactly would the show be all about then if nobody knew about the gate? Anyone keeping such a thing hidden would be either a criminal or an opportunist living in an underdeveloped country where there are few laws (more or less anarchy). However, as soon as the "owner" started to send people in, it's inevitable the news would leak. There's no honour among criminals, after all. If the gate didn't open in the middle of a big city, like in Gate, a government possibly could keep it hidden, at least for a time. It would require relatively little activity with minimal personality to stop leaks. I suppose you could write a story about such a case, but in the end it wouldn't be that much different from a bunch of isekai series we already have. Gate was what it was precisely because everybody knew. The other world made sure of that by invading first through the gate with full military strength.

What would leak?

"Hey guys, there's a teleportation energy gate that leads to a fantasy world where magic, dragons and elves exist! You have to go there!!1"

:>

[Kraco]

I'm not an avid Stargate watcher, but isn't that thing basically unknown to the public?
At least for the longest time?

Yeah, certainly. Naturally in fiction you could allow keeping it a secret despite massive operations. My thinking was kind of twisted there because I kept thinking about it realistically, which is unnecessary.


What would leak?

"Hey guys, there's a teleportation energy gate that leads to a fantasy world where magic, dragons and elves exist! You have to go there!!1"

:>

Yes. What hasn't leaked in our reality? Even Area 51 UFOs got leaked, despite there being no alien UFOs. That's how strongly things leak. Some Snowden would leak it all. It would leak eventually even from totalitarian countries like Russia or China, unless they kept it really small, which would make it kind of meaningless. But then again, this thinking is also wrong, like I admitted to KrayZ. In fiction, you could have an operation involve thousands of random people, yet not a single one would tell about it in a moment of (drunken) carelessness or in exchange for money. I'd rather watch a show where it, realistically, did leak. Because that makes it different from all the other isekai, which only involve one or at most a classroom of people from our world.

[Death BOO Z]

there is "I Won 4 Billion in a Lottery But I Went to Another World", which is half of what you want.

it has an adult protagonist, without any litrpg stuff.
but It's a light hearted romcom story, rather than a bloody action thing, and as far as I read, the existence of the Gate isn't publicly exposed yet.

the story is that our average japansese man wins the lottery, and runs off to his grandparents house in the rural area to avoid people who want the money he won. in the basement of the house there is an entrance to another world, where he encounters a struggling village (and a pretty girl), and decides to help them by bringing in supplies from modern japan. it then proceeds to have him involved in the fantasy politics, par for the course. with a few girls added as the story progresses.

there are some weird overtones of Japanese excellency in how food from japan is inherently better, and maybe some fetishization of manufacturing (which is kind of normal in these stories). but as long as you don't expect it to be something it isn't, then it's ok.

I quit somewhere after 20 chapters, mainly because I couldn't stand the hypocrisy of using his "un-earned" money to help the village (by buying a few thousands dollars worth of fertilizer, or spending 50K on a terrain vehicle to transport them) and this being treated as a moral action, while clearly condemning the people who wanted him to use his money to help real people on real japan, with real problems which require real solutions, which won't result of him being treated as a savior.

[Kraco]

there are some weird overtones of Japanese excellency in how food from japan is inherently better

That's exceedingly common in isekai. I'm not at all bothered by Japanese people missing their Japanese food in the fantasy European setting they somehow always end up in (why isn't it ever Japanese feudal times, huh?). It's natural for a person to miss some dishes from their homeland, even here on Earth, if you move to a foreign country far away. I'm only annoyed by it when the Japanese author thinks that the old European style food was absolute garbage and people didn't know how to cook at all, leaving it to the amazing Japanese person to show the hairy barbarians how basic cooking is done. That's the insufferable kind of cheap nationalism, kind of like the katana worship in some isekai.

[Death BOO Z]

also that, but in this case there are some magical essence that stuff from 'our earth' are of a higher quality and provide more "substance", it has some effects on the story and I like how it limits the hero, but it carries some weird overtones.

why is always feudal Europe? I can't be bothered to remember all the nobility ranks, and it makes for some bizarre situations where we are meant to feel that the "lowest ranking son of the lowest ranking noble" is somehow an underdog, ignoring all the peasants he lords over and the servants (maid, big boobs, man with glasses) that he commands.

[fireheart]

That's what I don't get though: Wouldn't it be SUPER AWESOME if an isekai hero returned to his world, except with his then newfound confidence and physical (and maybe even magical) abilities? Think of Isekai Ojisan, except in a serious story. What satisfying payoff would that be when the mc returns and all those people that previously shunned him, hated him, called him a loser, are now shown what his true potential was, if only his environment hadn't be shitty/toxic?

The name won't come to me, but there's a good, old anime series that is kinda like that, where the heroes return to the real world in the middle of the anime, then go back to the magical world. Heck, Digimon does it, too, although there's less societal drama.

Really, for me, the Isekai genre is a well of infinite creativity. I won't ever be able to cope with how the industry refuses to tap its potential.

While it doesn't hit all the things you want in an Isekai you could give The Second Coming of Gluttony a chance, though it's more of a returnee and parallell world story in one. The manwha isn't as good as the novel though and it has it trashy moments.

Synopsis:


Unforgivable. Trash. Son of bitch.

Such words are the only ones worthy enough to describe the man known as Seol.

A gambling addict who forgoed his responsibilities, betrayed his family, lover and himself, Seol was someone who ruined his life with his own hands. Even when he ran away to another world, he only continued down his path of failure. With his dying breath on foreign soil, he makes a wish to start over from the beginning.

Returning to the lowest point of his life, accompanied by emotions from a fleeting dream of the past future and a now restored ability to see the path of fate, Seol narrowly avoids the choice that would have resulted in his total ruin once again.

Now once more setting foot in the other world known as the Lost Paradise, Seol attempts to pave a new path, one without regret, and to atone for his sins back on Earth. But redemption never comes so simply, and only through hard-work and suffering may Seol find a chance to truly change himself.


Some other things you might like is the dynamic between the our world and the other world:
- People go back and forth between the other world and our regular world
- It's a secret that the other world exists and it's a whole business/people make money out of it

It does however have some gaming aspects such as stats, classes and class changes. Though stats are basically categorized as low (low), low (intermediate), low (high), intermediate (low) etc etc. Classes and class changes are decided by the Gods, if you contribute enough in the world and your stats are high enough you're allowed to become a higher class for example from a warrior into a swordsman.

[MFauli]

there is "I Won 4 Billion in a Lottery But I Went to Another World", which is half of what you want.

it has an adult protagonist, without any litrpg stuff.
but It's a light hearted romcom story, rather than a bloody action thing, and as far as I read, the existence of the Gate isn't publicly exposed yet.

the story is that our average japansese man wins the lottery, and runs off to his grandparents house in the rural area to avoid people who want the money he won. in the basement of the house there is an entrance to another world, where he encounters a struggling village (and a pretty girl), and decides to help them by bringing in supplies from modern japan. it then proceeds to have him involved in the fantasy politics, par for the course. with a few girls added as the story progresses.

there are some weird overtones of Japanese excellency in how food from japan is inherently better, and maybe some fetishization of manufacturing (which is kind of normal in these stories). but as long as you don't expect it to be something it isn't, then it's ok.

I quit somewhere after 20 chapters, mainly because I couldn't stand the hypocrisy of using his "un-earned" money to help the village (by buying a few thousands dollars worth of fertilizer, or spending 50K on a terrain vehicle to transport them) and this being treated as a moral action, while clearly condemning the people who wanted him to use his money to help real people on real japan, with real problems which require real solutions, which won't result of him being treated as a savior.

Yeah, that sounds like a story I'd hate, haha, but thx for trying to give recommendations. It's not easy with isekai -_-


While it doesn't hit all the things you want in an Isekai you could give The Second Coming of Gluttony a chance, though it's more of a returnee and parallell world story in one. The manwha isn't as good as the novel though and it has it trashy moments.

Synopsis:




Some other things you might like is the dynamic between the our world and the other world:
- People go back and forth between the other world and our regular world
- It's a secret that the other world exists and it's a whole business/people make money out of it

It does however have some gaming aspects such as stats, classes and class changes. Though stats are basically categorized as low (low), low (intermediate), low (high), intermediate (low) etc etc. Classes and class changes are decided by the Gods, if you contribute enough in the world and your stats are high enough you're allowed to become a higher class for example from a warrior into a swordsman.

Does this have any chance of an anime adaption? Just read chapter 1 and it's interesting enough. Although the heroe is a total bishounen and the "time travel" commits the #1 sin imo lol. Still, it's definitely above any isekai I'v watched in recent years. Thx

[fireheart]

Does this have any chance of an anime adaption? Just read chapter 1 and it's interesting enough. Although the heroe is a total bishounen and the "time travel" commits the #1 sin imo lol. Still, it's definitely above any isekai I'v watched in recent years. Thx

I didn't think Solo Leveling would get an anime adaption but that's getting one. This on the other hand seems far from as popular in terms of Korean manwhas/web novels so would guess the chances are slim to none.

[Ryllharu]

I guess I'll have to take it back. They do write the type of series MFauli is looking for, and they get anime.

This trash (https://yenpress.com/9781975333935/i-got-a-cheat-skill-in-another-world-and-became-unrivaled-in-the-real-world-too-vol-1-light-novel/) is getting an anime at some point in the future.

Bear in mind that the author has admitted on interviews to making up the story from volume to volume without any actual plan for the plot.

[MFauli]

I guess I'll have to take it back. They do write the type of series MFauli is looking for, and they get anime.

This trash (https://yenpress.com/9781975333935/i-got-a-cheat-skill-in-another-world-and-became-unrivaled-in-the-real-world-too-vol-1-light-novel/) is getting an anime at some point in the future.

Bear in mind that the author has admitted on interviews to making up the story from volume to volume without any actual plan for the plot.

I mean, "cheat skill" is the opposite of what I want, as is a teenage hero and, judging from the cover art, 2 cute girls flocking to him. The plot sounds interesting, though, yes.

Completely disagree about your hate against the author, though. Writing a story as it happens is a GREAT way to write a story. It allows a truly adventurous journey. The only negative is that it's more difficult to write, because the author needs to pay attention to what was written in the past.

[Kraco]

Completely disagree about your hate against the author, though. Writing a story as it happens is a GREAT way to write a story. It allows a truly adventurous journey. The only negative is that it's more difficult to write, because the author needs to pay attention to what was written in the past.

It's the worst way to write a story of deep integrity. It removes the ability to install foreshadowing into the story. If you wrote the whole thing at once that way, you could potentially go back and edit in at least rudimentary foreshadowing, but if what you wrote has already been published, it's impossible. If you write slice of life, which many isekai are, especially the slow life, it wouldn't matter. But if it's actually a journey with a purpose, it becomes extremely linear. Then you better pray you have got Tolkien level of imagination and writing ability to make up for it, but the isekai authors typically don't possess such skills.

In any case, none of this is a surprise. Bakuman explained in great detail why things are as they are in Japan. Even though web novels are an unedited wild west, apparently the same stuff is going on there as well. Relying on quality doesn't pay off in the Japanese market. Being able to mass produce a chapter after chapter until the audience loses interest, and then without regret abandoning the project to start a new one immediately is the key in that market.

[Death BOO Z]

more bitching on isekai manga
this time:
Tsuihou no Kenja, Sekai wo Shiru

which isn't an isekai at all, but it has all the marks of an iseaki.*

the plot: mc is a support to the girl with the hero class, which is his female childhood friend. she treats him as dirt, belittles him and abuses him, he finally leaves. then he meets another girl and it turns out that he's actually OP. adventures start - he makes friends and learns that he's actually OP, while the female childhood friend tries to bring him back to the party and is being psycho about it, and other characters have other stuff going on.

the "actually strongest" part is trash as always, it's a fantasy superiority complex that gets worse the more you think about it. but there is an interesting point in the story, the girlHero is after him in a psycho mode, which makes the story about leaving an abusive relationship, and there are some parts where the story goes against the "childhood friend" trope and explicitly says that her being kind in the past doesn't make her actions excusable today, and that it's ok to let go of their connection. but then the story flops and introduces another female childhood friend, because the author doesn't get the story they wrote.

it isn't an isekai - the hero wasn't transported from our world, he wasn't reborn with the knowledge, or anything like that, but it's still an isekai.
I think that an essential main isekai point is "starting again", so it can be starting a new life in a new world, starting a new adventurer career in a new world, or restarting with a new party or as an adventurer in a new city.

this distinction covers "is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon' as an isekai (comes to a new city to become an adventurer), but doesn't include inuyasha (Kagome doesn't start a new life in the sengoku Jiday). and for me, it's important to have a genre definition (litmus test) that manages this distinction.

[MFauli]

That's also bs that needs to end: isekai anime that aren't isekai but look and feel like one. Dear god, can these studios just make PROPER fantasy stories anymore? :( Looking at you, DanMachi.

[Ryllharu]

That's also bs that needs to end: isekai anime that aren't isekai but look and feel like one. Dear god, can these studios just make PROPER fantasy stories anymore? :( Looking at you, DanMachi.

Because LitRPGs also let authors skimp on details of describing how characters get stronger or feel stronger. Just put in numbers, levels, and a list of skills. Much easier than describing things with appropriate detail while keeping track of any continuity.