Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[shinta|hikari]

I don't want to mistakenly assume your thoughts, so I want to clarify some things.


I mean the excuse of "it's a fictional world where they say that horrible thing is okay, so it makes that horrible thing okay" doesn't magically give it a pass, regardless of what travesty you want to plug in there.

For example, all the isekai that are like "We have slavery, and slavery is good and the slaves love being your slaves!" You don't just have to shrug and go "Oh well! That's that world!". Like, no! That's not just a reality that happened and you just have to accept it! Somebody WROTE that world to be that way! Someone sat down and created a world where people just love being slaves. And you don't have to give that writer a pass for that. Because it's fucking weird!

Are you saying that authors that write about topics that are unethical or immoral based on our current lens as acceptable in their fictional world are bad? I use the word bad because "weird" is not very clear. More specifically, are these authors bad people (morally) or bad writers (creatively or in terms of skill)?



I'm not looking to "forbid" anything. I'm just not willing to cut a character slack just because an awful thing is a normal part of their world.

Are you saying we should judge all characters and their actions based on our current lens of morals regardless of their setting and culture?

[Buffalobiian]

Grooming is the act of preparing a child so they're fuckable later.

This didn't happen, so there's no grooming.

Why is this ambiguous?

[shinta|hikari]

It isn't. Darth just misused the term. To be fair to him, it is constantly misused nowadays, like many other buzzwords.

[DarthEnderX]

Are you saying that authors that write about topics that are unethical or immoral based on our current lens as acceptable in their fictional world are bad?I think if you take something from the real world that is generally considered bad, then create a fictional world where that bad thing is considered okay, and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.

"I created a fantasy world that has lots of slavery and everyone is okay with it and it causes no issues!" Okay, cool. So you wrote a pro-slavery story.


It isn't. Darth just misused the term.Correct. It's not technically grooming. But it doesn't make it okay. Because your interactions with them at a formative age could still have influenced their feelings towards you, whether you intended it or not. And entering into a romantic relationship with them later would still be leveraging those feelings to your advantage.

[Kraco]

Correct. It's not technically grooming. But it doesn't make it okay. Because your interactions with them at a formative age could still have influenced their feelings towards you, whether you intended it or not. And entering into a romantic relationship with them later would still be leveraging those feelings to your advantage.

If you aren't allowed to leverage any positive feelings to your advantage, how are you supposed to enter any marriage, aside from political/marriages of convenience? You are taking here a worst case possibility, that we haven't seen any sign of, and then stretching it to cover everything. Including that "Correct. It's not technically grooming. But..." As long as no clear grooming happened, nothing else matters. It's 100% Rudeus and Roxy's private matter. Well, in this case Sylphie's as well, like I've stated before.

We could also say that this couldn't even happen in our world because over here, Roxy would look like a middle-aged woman, so with the amount of interaction they did have, chances of Rudeus still remaining infatuated would be too low. Not to mention a normal kid wouldn't have become "permanently" infatuated in the first place. The decade of not seeing Roxy at all would have done its work. Kids, who don't even know what they are talking about, can become immaturely interested in much older kids/young adults all the time, but it will always pass as years go by. I suppose that's why authors can build drama around it in age gap fiction, where it doesn't pass.

[MFauli]

That's just an example. I mean the excuse of "it's a fictional world where they say that horrible thing is okay, so it makes that horrible thing okay" doesn't magically give it a pass, regardless of what travesty you want to plug in there.

For example, all the isekai that are like "We have slavery, and slavery is good and the slaves love being your slaves!" You don't just have to shrug and go "Oh well! That's that world!". Like, no! That's not just a reality that happened and you just have to accept it! Somebody WROTE that world to be that way! Someone sat down and created a world where people just love being slaves. And you don't have to give that writer a pass for that. Because it's fucking weird!

I'm not looking to "forbid" anything. I'm just not willing to cut a character slack just because an awful thing is a normal part of their world.

For example, Game of Thrones world has a lot of slavery. But GoT doesn't ever try and pretend that slavery is good. It's a bad thing that bad people profit from. It's a part of that world, but the stories don't pretend it's okay just because it's a part of that world.

Go back 150 years and slavery would have been LITERALLY okay in our real world and nobody would call it a bad thing (well, nobody but the slaves, although they probably had a lot of internalized self-depreciation, too). And then you have issues with a fantasy-story depicting slaves as something that's okay? Where some slaves are happy? I mean, if we take Shield Hero for example, the anime also depicted slavery as something that mistreats slaves. It's just that the hero treats his slave nicely. Ofc, the raccoon girl also is a dumb bitch who's falling in love with her master, lol.

In general, I really dislike your stance, because it's so limiting of creative freedom. As a creative freedom absolutist, I'd love to see more stories that break taboos which includes different depictions of age of consent. I mean, it's always weird when you have a fantasy world but SOMEHOW age of consent is 18 years old, "coincidentitally" the same as in a minority of US-states (it's actually 16 in most, and even lower in many European countries). We know from history that princesses were wed to older lords at the age of 11 or 12 and had sex then, too, as soon as it became aware that they were able to get pregnant. It was fucked up, sure. But why can't FICTION depict a story where age of consent is different? That's such a weird, prudish, authoritarian demand imo.

One of my favorite moments in manga is when near the end of Gantz, the heroes get to some alien planet where humans are eaten by giant aliens and it's the most normal thing. Fucked up, right? But extremely FASCINATING, too!

I just think that accusing the author of anything because of what he wrote is unfair. If you did that, then all those authors who wrote violent stories should be seen as potential murderers. Makes no sense, though. It's fiction.


I think if you take something from the real world that is generally considered bad, then create a fictional world where that bad thing is considered okay, and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.

That's in insane take, wow. Fuck creative freedom, huh?

[David75]

The grooming we're talking about is still very common in every village of our planet, isn't it?

[Kraco]

The grooming we're talking about is still very common in every village of our planet, isn't it?

The grooming we are talking about never happened, so sure, haha.

[shinta|hikari]

That's in insane take, wow. Fuck creative freedom, huh?

I wouldn't go so far as insane, but it is a fairly extreme stance. Writing about something, even if you aren't critical or subversive about it, does not mean the author endorses it. It might just be a tool for the plot or really just something different for the sake of novelty. It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life. Fiction is largely about escapism, after all.

[MFauli]

I wouldn't go so far as insane, but it is a fairly extreme stance. Writing about something, even if you aren't critical or subversive about it, does not mean the author endorses it. It might just be a tool for the plot or really just something different for the sake of novelty. It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life. Fiction is largely about escapism, after all.

Like, every author or video game maker of violent projects would have to suspected for planning murder, lol. All those horror movies full of brutal, realistic gore => writers are psycho-killers in spe!!11 /s

Fiction ultimately is always about "what if ...", that's what makes it interesting. If we have a story where "grooming" is okay, where slavery is okay or where the age of consent is lower than irl, that makes for interesting scenarios, that allow stories to explore what it'd be like. ESPECIALLY when it's an isekai-story where someone from our real world is confronted with these different norms. And there shouldn't be any obligations on the writer to have the hero behave only one way.

Hero is reborn in world where slavery is okay. Now he can react in various ways:

- "OMG, are you insane? Slavery is wrong!!111"
- "Omg, this world is fucked up. I need to get back asap!"
- "Damn these people, I can't let this stay as is. Gotta find a way to end slavery, it's the right thing to do!"
- "Fuck, I'm powerless for now. But I can at least accept that slave the lord gave me and treat her well."
- "Well, this a different world. And having a servant isn't so bad."
- "Hm, now that I think about it, she's kinda cute. But I must behave." *slave girl falls in love with hero*
- "Wait, 'tis for real? And I'm allowed to do aaaaanything I want to her? BUENO...!"

And ANY of these should be okay to write, without accusing the author of anything. All these taboos are the reason why movies and video games are so goddamn boring nowadays. Heroes aren't even allowed to slap an unsuspecting girl on the butt anymore without outrage. Breaking taboos => more exciting stories <3

[DarthEnderX]

If you aren't allowed to leverage any positive feelings to your advantageLeveraging positive feelings is fine.

Leveraging positive feelings that formed while they were a child, while you were an adult, isn't.


It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life.It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.



- "Wait, 'tis for real? And I'm allowed to do aaaaanything I want to her? BUENO...!"

And ANY of these should be okay to write, without accusing the author of anything.I would absolutely accuse the author of the last one of things.

[MFauli]

I would absolutely accuse the author of the last one of things.

If I wrote a story about a fictional world where "pedophilia" was okay, I'd do so only to challenge the readers' mind. It's a real issue that people like you would actually accuse me of being a REAL child abuser only for writing a FICTIONAL story.

And somehow you manage be blind to all other "problematic" topics when it comes to this line of thinking of yours. Are the developers of God of War dangerous psychos that want to brutalize other people? Rip their heads off? I doubt it ...

[Kraco]

It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.

What's that ultra simplistic line out of nowhere? It's entertainment industry. The authors are writing what they believe their audience will want to swallow, hook, line, and sinker. Just like Hollywood did in the 80's and 90's, and we got the classic action film masterpieces. Nowadays, of course, Hollywood has forgotten it's supposed to be entertainment industry. It's something else. Ego industry might describe it.

[MFauli]

For the record, the only example of an author truly writing what he personaly desires is Made in the Abyss. The shit that happens there, especially at the start of season 2, was WAY too unnecessarily detailed and drawn out for it not be the author's fetish.

[DarthEnderX]

If I wrote a story about a fictional world where "pedophilia" was okay, I'd do so only to challenge the readers' mind. It's a real issue that people like you would actually accuse me of being a REAL child abuser only for writing a FICTIONAL story.Except I literally included an exemption for that exact instance:
and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.If the author's intent is "The reader is supposed to think this is bad", then it's fine. If the author's intent is "I made this world cool with this because I want the reader to be cool with this", then the writer is absolutely endorsing it.


What's that ultra simplistic line out of nowhere? It's entertainment industry. The authors are writing what they believe their audience will want to swallow, hook, line, and sinker. Just like Hollywood did in the 80's and 90's, and we got the classic action film masterpieces. Nowadays, of course, Hollywood has forgotten it's supposed to be entertainment industry. It's something else. Ego industry might describe it.I mean...I guess? They can be like "I'm not writing this pro-pedophilia story because I'm pro-pedophilia. I'm writing it because my audience is pro-pedophilia."

Like, okay. But if you're waiting for me to give you props for that, you'll be waiting a long time.

[MFauli]

Except I literally included an exemption for that exact instance:If the author's intent is "The reader is supposed to think this is bad", then it's fine. If the author's intent is "I made this world cool with this because I want the reader to be cool with this", then the writer is absolutely endorsing it.



But ... that's an absolutely bs take :D wtf. How do you not see the problem with such stance?!

[shinta|hikari]

It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.

Aside from audience demand that Kraco already mentioned, wish fulfillment in fiction has nothing to do with actually intending or even wanting to do those things in real life. People know what is wrong to do in reality, so they turn to fiction for it. Equating what people enjoy in fiction to automatically equal something they will enjoy, condone, or even endorse in reality is baseless. Proof of this is everywhere.

To be clear, I am not saying there are no authors or people like what you describe. What I am saying is it definitely isn't necessarily true or even common, as such, we shouldn't lump them all together and accuse everyone of being depraved just because they know the difference between reality and fiction.

EDIT:
Some quick examples, since I did claim there is proof everywhere:
1. People who develop or play violent video games where violence is accepted and even glorified do not actually turn violent or even want to do violent things in real life. Because they aren't bloodthirsty psychopaths.
2. People who watch strange porn do not actually want tentacles to attack people in real life. Because that would be insane??
3. People who love Game of Thrones where for most of the show betrayal and lies reigned supreme do not actually betray or even want to lie to people around them. Because lying is bad.
4. People who love Shield Hero and see Raphtalia wanting to remain a slave don't actually want to own or be a slave in reality. Because enslaving real people is fucking evil.
5. People who love OP Isekai stories that build nations don't actually want to build their own nation. Because that is honestly too much responsibility and a huge pain. Easier just to go on the internet for dopamine.
6. People who play RPGs or CRPGs like DnD or Divinity OS2 and loot and murder entire populations in the game do not want to genocide in real life. Because they aren't fascist.
7. My wife wanted to add, people who read Omegaverse and werewolves fucking each other in the ass do not actually even want to see guys fucking each other in the ass in real life, not even in fully consensual, live action, non-furry porn. Because that is ew, apparently. Source: her lol. Anecdotal, but still one example.

These people just want to escape reality and try/enjoy different things in a harmless manner by using fantasy and imagination. It may be just curiosity, a passing fancy, or even a serious obsession. But as long as it stays in fiction, and it normally does, there is nothing wrong with that, and they should definitely not be accused of anything negative.

[Kraco]

I mean...I guess? They can be like "I'm not writing this pro-pedophilia story because I'm pro-pedophilia. I'm writing it because my audience is pro-pedophilia."

Like, okay. But if you're waiting for me to give you props for that, you'll be waiting a long time.

I don't believe I've ever read any pro-pedophilia stories, so I can't really judge it based on experience. During the last decade I've read helluva lot of isekai, just like this series, so I was mainly talking about it. 99% of it is shameless copy-pasta trash written for an audience always hungering for more. It's pure entertainment industry.

[DarthEnderX]

But ... that's an absolutely bs take :D wtf. How do you not see the problem with such stance?!...nope.

If you write a story where a horrible thing is treated as fine. And your intent is for the reader to be fine with that. The takeaway is you want that horrible thing to be fine.

"I wrote a story where the Nazi won WW2 and took over the world."
"And everything is horrible, right?"
"Nope. It's a great world where everything worked out."

There's literally no other way to read that than "The author wished the Nazis won."


People who love Game of Thrones where for most of the show betrayal and lies reigned supreme do not actually betray or even want to lie to people around them. Because lying is bad.GoT never tries to convince you that those people are good, or right. They're not good people just because they're winning. GoT wants you to be horrified by their actions.



7. My wife wanted to add, people who read Omegaverse and werewolves fucking each other in the ass do not actually even want to see guys fucking each other in the ass in real life, not even in fully consensual, live action, non-furry porn. Because that is ew, apparently. Source: her lol. Anecdotal, but still one example.Lol!



These people just want to escape reality and try/enjoy different things in a harmless manner by using fantasy and imagination. It may be just curiosity, a passing fancy, or even a serious obsession. But as long as it stays in fiction, and it normally does, there is nothing wrong with that, and they should definitely not be accused of anything negative.Nah. I'm still gonna judge them.

[shinta|hikari]

If you write a story where a horrible thing is treated as fine. And your intent is for the reader to be fine with that. The takeaway is you want that horrible thing to be fine.

To clarify, the intent is for the reader to be fine with that in the context of the fictitious story. If the author wants you to be fine with that in real life, that is horrible. Like say, if an author wrote a history book and glorified conquest and racial superiority.

But that is simply not how fiction works. See all the examples I mentioned already.

Also, a fictional world where the Nazis won and somehow everything turned peachy is very interesting to read. Whether the author can make it sound convincing enough to be believable is another story. But all this is okay because this is just fiction.

To reiterate, there are fictional authors who do shit like what you said (i.e. JK Rowling). But they are not common or even the majority of fiction writers. Just like writing a story from the POV of a villain, showing that they are people too and maybe even have good motivations, is not endorsing villainy. It is just an interesting and different piece of entertainment.

As for the GoT example, if doing bad things keep resulting in you winning (for most of the story anyway), it certainly paints the picture that being bad is desirable. But then again, the readers/viewers know it is fiction and won't be taking that as a lesson or something to emulate in real life. Because they know that fiction, as entertaining and stimulating as it is, is not reality.


Nah. I'm still gonna judge them.

You are of course free to do so, just like others may judge your close-minded and puritanical stance.

[KrayZ33]

Roughly half of the Isekais people are watching have this kind of "grooming" and it's not a topic of discussion at all.
Why is it that it's a topic for Mushoku, sounds like some ragebait to me tbh.


So... shouldn't this be completely accepted by now, considering we've seen "it happen" for decades now?

[shinta|hikari]

Ragebait?

I thought this entire discussion started when Darth mentioned it in this thread. Are other people (in other spaces) targeting specifically this story for depicting "grooming"?

[KrayZ33]

Ragebait?

I thought this entire discussion started when Darth mentioned it in this thread. Are other people (in other spaces) targeting specifically this story for depicting "grooming"?

Certainly, but actually about Rudeus grooming the others. (which at least makes sense because that was quite literally his stated goal in a few episodes.)
Be that as it may, it's still completely normal to see this in anime and I still have no idea why this is being a topic when it wasn't in so many other shows.

I consider Roxy "grooming" Rudeus to be a big fucking stretch in the first place (because the crime is actually the intent and the objective is sexual abuse or intercourse - which Roxy never even remotely had and actually went so far as to punish such behaviour coming from Rudeus), but I just don't understand why it's a topic for this show and not for the others that do it as well... because they are less popular?
What Roxy did for Rudeus is "grooming" all right, but that kind of grooming which is not a crime and the actual meaning of the word. Mentorship, teaching and coaching a child so that it can be on it's way to achieve something great.

It's quite honestly a bit silly to think this was grooming for the intent of having a romantic relationship later and it's not at all what happened in this show... not even close.

Since that's relatively clear, what else but "ragebait" or perhaps "provocation"(? maybe that's a better word?) would that question be?

[shinta|hikari]

Oh I just didn't realize this topic ("grooming") with regards to Mushoku was a significant discussion in other places. I don't really participate in anime discussions outside of gotwoot.

EDIT:
My wife told me to clarify, she doesn't think male on male buttfucking porn is ew. Just that she personally does not enjoy it, unlike omegaverse wolf buttsecks.

[KrayZ33]

Is your wife the Roxy pillow you bought and you speaking as her? Or an actual person?

I'm confused as to how much of a joke this is (or isn't)

[MFauli]

Is your wife the Roxy pillow you bought and you speaking as her? Or an actual person?

I'm confused as to how much of a joke this is (or isn't)

She's real, but I get you. I totally get you.

[Ryllharu]

Any grooming going on in this series was with Rudeus and Sylphiette when they were children. But it was very brief and due to their eventual separation, did not have too much of a long-lasting effect, but it has one nevertheless. You had an adult man in the guise of a child encouraging features and behaviors in a naturally meek girl. They developed a significant codependency that Rudy's parents noticed and corrected by sending him away.

It's a significant driver to why she's the most boring heroine in the entire series. She's meek, demure, and accommodating. Fully boring. Bland wife-servant personality. Bleh.

I support Roxy having her smitten period here because it's already been established that she's an excessively late bloomer due to her disability with her own species which isolates her from her own people and makes her an outcast to her own continent, but a welcome adventurer elsewhere. She has social hangups so it does track that she's finally aware of Rudeus. Others that she has spent substantial time with are like much older siblings to her (even though she is likely older than most humans). It is slowly dawning on her that she's lovestruck, but her main focus is certainly adventuring with a competent person that she gets along with and who can explore magical shit with her without being a creep (the prince she tutored), pervert (the other prince she tutored), asshole (Paul), whore (she doesn't know Elinalise has a path forward and ambition to stay loyal), unhygenic and kinda a weirdo (Geese), no interest in magical stuff (dwarf), or anyone else she's traveled with over the years. Roxy would like that to develop into more, maybe possibly, but she's too stunted to be forward about it so she's playing this card even though everyone around her knows her well enough to see it plain as day.

Rudy just doesn't believe it could be true, so he is Main Protagonist Dense for the purposes of this arc's narrative.

It's a huge stretch to say that she groomed Rudy. She trained him, then left. They stayed in communication like normal close tutor and pupil, though we know that Rudeus developed a complex around her, Roxy didn't and merely remembered him as an exceptional student who helped her get out of an awkward employment and skill development period in her life.

All that said...Eris is still better than both Roxy and especially Sylphie and this series deeply suffers from her lack of presence. Eris' independent attitude and desire for self-betterment is vastly superior to devoted and horny but otherwise Zero Personality Wish Fulfillment Wife and Smitten Late Bloomer Socially Naive Adventurer Roxy.

[shinta|hikari]

Fuck Eris. Roxy is the best waifu, and Sylphy is fine in her current position.


Is your wife the Roxy pillow you bought and you speaking as her? Or an actual person?

I'm confused as to how much of a joke this is (or isn't)

A real person lol. We both like the Roxy pillow though (yes, in that way), so we bought it.

She is a barely 5-foot, bisexual, amateur fashion model who aspires to be a voice actress (in English).

[DarthEnderX]

Rudy just doesn't believe it could be true, so he is Main Protagonist Dense for the purposes of this arc's narrative.
Which is OOC for him, because he's usually very genre savvy.

[MFauli]

What the heck is with all this Roxy and Slyphie slandering?! Eris is the worst. Although I generally hate red heads ;>



A real person lol. We both like the Roxy pillow though (yes, in that way), so we bought it.

She is a barely 5-foot, bisexual, amateur fashion model who aspires to be a voice actress (in English).

Ok, now I'm leaning towards "not real" lol :P

[KrayZ33]

Shinta is like the boy who cried "Wolf". I really have no idea if he's serious or not.
This is so funny to me right now, you wouldn't believe it.

I'm not trying to diss you or your wife - if there is any - I'll just stop .... because..... hahahaha, oh man
I don't even know what to say or how to handle this situation.


I agree with Eris being the best.
But to be fair, she got the most characterbuilding there is in this show (other than MC).
So it's not fair to Roxy.
And it's good that Eris got so much time to develop because without it, she would've been insufferable.

[DarthEnderX]

She is a barely 5-foot, bisexual, amateur fashion model who aspires to be a voice actress (in English).
https://media.tenor.com/WmsDrSvESNoAAAAM/thor-yes.gif

----------

[Ryllharu]

I agree with Eris being the best.
But to be fair, she got the most characterbuilding there is in this show (other than MC).
So it's not fair to Roxy.
And it's good that Eris got so much time to develop because without it, she would've been insufferable.

Roxy isn't the problem. She's gotten a decent amount of character development and is obviously set to get more before the season ends. This feels like her arc.

The problem is Sylphie. She has no personality. She is "My Husband and Family First" Japanese stereotype wife with no aspirations of her own beyond getting married and having her husband's children. The type of characters who are so bland they feel like an afterthought. She might as well be "Generic Apron Wearing Anime mom" except she has half-elf ears.

There was ample time to develop one in the ED arc, but they didn't. That entire arc is just padding that could have been compressed into 6 episodes with a montage in the middle (and I am including the near suicide episodes).

Princess Ariel has more of a functionally developed and nuanced personality and a place in the story. That's how weak of a character Sylphie is.

[MFauli]

Roxy isn't the problem. She's gotten a decent amount of character development and is obviously set to get more before the season ends. This feels like her arc.

The problem is Sylphie. She has no personality. She is "My Husband and Family First" Japanese stereotype wife with no aspirations of her own beyond getting married and having her husband's children. The type of characters who are so bland they feel like an afterthought. She might as well be "Generic Apron Wearing Anime mom" except she has half-elf ears.

There was ample time to develop one in the ED arc, but they didn't. That entire arc is just padding that could have been compressed into 6 episodes with a montage in the middle (and I am including the near suicide episodes).

Princess Ariel has more of a functionally developed and nuanced personality and a place in the story. That's how weak of a character Sylphie is.

Oh no, how dare a woman dream of marrying, having children and leading a peaceful family life!!1 /s

This sort of attitude is what makes modern feminism so toxic :/ Persuing a career is fine. Persuing family life is fine, too. And Sylphie is great. If only she had female curves.

[Ryllharu]

Oh no, how dare a woman dream of marrying, having children and leading a peaceful family life!!1 /s

This sort of attitude is what makes modern feminism so toxic :/ Persuing a career is fine. Persuing family life is fine, too. And Sylphie is great. If only she had female curves.
Which Roxy also thinks about. We've also seen Roxy being patient, nurturing, and thoughtful with children. We've seen Eris do the same with older beastmen children in her own way.

The problem is that a minor scene, a footnote, or background character animation for Roxy or Eris is the entirety of Slyphie's personality.

Actual background characters and minor supporting characters have more character development than Slyphie does. Zenith has a more developed personality. Sylphie's entire narrative is already done unless things change when Rudeus drags Roxy into their household as wife number two.

[MFauli]

And I still don't see the problem with this, unless you are strictly speaking from a point of "what would be more interesting to watch". But from a plausible story development pov, Sylphie is a-ok.

Let's look at Eris. What would have happened to her without Rudy? Well, first of all, she'd be dead, lol. But let's assume she'd have survived the teleportation event, then what? Or let's assume there never would have been that event. She would have stayed at home, have trained a little sword fighting so that her father and uncle get some freetime, and ultimately she would have married some random noble guy. She would have ended up as "WORSE" than Sylphie, because at least Sylphie chose family life on her own. Eris would have been forced to become a noble lady, giving children to her husband, while wasting away her time with mundane bs, not even doing cooking and such, because her servants would do it for her.

So please, the whole "Eris had so much more ambition than Sylphie" argument is simply the consequence of things that were forced on her. Had things proceeded naturally, she'd have ended up in a worse life than Sylphie and she wouldn't have fought that life. See her ever-pissed off mom, she would have become exactly that.

[shinta|hikari]

And I still don't see the problem with this, unless you are strictly speaking from a point of "what would be more interesting to watch".

I think that's what they are saying. Eris is more interesting to watch because she is an unpredictable violent bitch.

[Ryllharu]

And I still don't see the problem with this, unless you are strictly speaking from a point of "what would be more interesting to watch". But from a plausible story development pov, Sylphie is a-ok.
For the majority of fiction, if it isn't interesting, it should be cut. Because it served no narrative purpose. Now Sylphie has been in the story since very early on, but there's also currently nowhere for her to go in the narrative. She gives birth, concluding her arc...which isn't actually HER arc, it is actually a small portion of Rudeus' arc. There's nowhere further for her character to go.

Does Sylphie need to stay at home for the narrative? Not really, that's why Aisha's arc has her wanting to be the perfect housekeeper and as the bastard child of her father with a complex about it, wanting to be just a little selfish. But Sylphie's story got rushed right to pregnancy, limiting her utility in the narrative.

Does she provide a "true love" type relationship? Not really either. That's been set up to be Roxy. Heroic savior at her most dire need and everything.

Does she provide a "dramatic love" type relationship? No, that's Eris' role since we know she still loves him.

Sylphie couldn't be cut because she was a big part of the early events getting Rudeus to be more social. Again, Sylphie serves as a vehicle for Rudeus' arc, not the center of her own. Which is consistent about her everywhere she appears in the story. She's not a lead heroine, she's a tertiary support character to other, more interesting characters in the story.

Her entire role in the webnovel should have been rewritten from scratch to make her an actual character, since they certainly couldn't have cut her. Even Sara (https://anidb.net/character/132156) has more of an independent sense of development than Sylphie does.

The totality of her personality is horny, available, submissive, loyal, devoted, and obedient. That's toxic social construct writ large. Flaws make characters interesting and engaging. Motivations that don't perfectly align with every other character drive the narratives. Boring is not a flaw, it is a lack of one. Sylphie never affects the narrative, she's carried along by it.


So please, the whole "Eris had so much more ambition than Sylphie" argument is simply the consequence of things that were forced on her. Had things proceeded naturally, she'd have ended up in a worse life than Sylphie and she wouldn't have fought that life. See her ever-pissed off mom, she would have become exactly that.
That's literally why she's more interesting, same with Roxy. They're active participants of the narrative, and Sylphie is barely even a supporting character in Rudeus'.

And you clearly misunderstood the best MILF in the series (https://youtu.be/VO5Z5exVUbs). It's not well explained in the anime, but you can piece it together from her husband's dialogue concerning the Greyrat power dynamics (all moot after the mass teleportation) if you pay close attention. Eris became spoiled because she was the only child Hilda had left, but in that scene, Hilda also berates Eris for not being feminine enough (Hilda knew that Eris needed course-correcting, she just didn't live to see it). Hilda initially resents Rudeus because Paul managed to get out of the traditional Greyrat family dynamics.

[Buffalobiian]

Eris is entertaining to watch.
If you have rose tinted glasses, or manage to somehow be on her good side most of the time (through effort or luck) then you might have a good time. Boy did she take some fixing through. I still remember that demon kid who pulled her cloak, broke a button, and she absolutely decked him for it.
In comedic anime land that's fine. In real life it might be lethal.

Sylphie is boring, unless ehs's a monster in bed I suppose. It sounds like a stress free life with her assuming you have the stamina.

Roxy is a good mix between them. In some ways she's the most childish of them all, but she can have conversations with Rudy regarding magic.

The best wife of course is actually Aisha.

[MFauli]

For the majority of fiction, if it isn't interesting, it should be cut. Because it served no narrative purpose. Now Sylphie has been in the story since very early on, but there's also currently nowhere for her to go in the narrative. She gives birth, concluding her arc...which isn't actually HER arc, it is actually a small portion of Rudeus' arc. There's nowhere further for her character to go.

Does Sylphie need to stay at home for the narrative? Not really, that's why Aisha's arc has her wanting to be the perfect housekeeper and as the bastard child of her father with a complex about it, wanting to be just a little selfish. But Sylphie's story got rushed right to pregnancy, limiting her utility in the narrative.

Does she provide a "true love" type relationship? Not really either. That's been set up to be Roxy. Heroic savior at her most dire need and everything.

Does she provide a "dramatic love" type relationship? No, that's Eris' role since we know she still loves him.

Sylphie couldn't be cut because she was a big part of the early events getting Rudeus to be more social. Again, Sylphie serves as a vehicle for Rudeus' arc, not the center of her own. Which is consistent about her everywhere she appears in the story. She's not a lead heroine, she's a tertiary support character to other, more interesting characters in the story.

Her entire role in the webnovel should have been rewritten from scratch to make her an actual character, since they certainly couldn't have cut her. Even Sara (https://anidb.net/character/132156) has more of an independent sense of development than Sylphie does.

The totality of her personality is horny, available, submissive, loyal, devoted, and obedient. That's toxic social construct writ large. Flaws make characters interesting and engaging. Motivations that don't perfectly align with every other character drive the narratives. Boring is not a flaw, it is a lack of one. Sylphie never affects the narrative, she's carried along by it.


That's literally why she's more interesting, same with Roxy. They're active participants of the narrative, and Sylphie is barely even a supporting character in Rudeus'.

And you clearly misunderstood the best MILF in the series (https://youtu.be/VO5Z5exVUbs). It's not well explained in the anime, but you can piece it together from her husband's dialogue concerning the Greyrat power dynamics (all moot after the mass teleportation) if you pay close attention. Eris became spoiled because she was the only child Hilda had left, but in that scene, Hilda also berates Eris for not being feminine enough (Hilda knew that Eris needed course-correcting, she just didn't live to see it). Hilda initially resents Rudeus because Paul managed to get out of the traditional Greyrat family dynamics.


Are you pulling a DarthEnder now? Sylphie is not the main character. She's now a mother-to-be. And even then there's the possibility of her princess-friend calling for her help. Everything about her status quo is FINE. This is Rudy's story and it's progressing in an interesting way.

Why does it matter that Sylphie is CURRENTLY not the utmost exciting character? That doesn't mean anything should be cut or rewritten, holy shit. Sometimes I want to play Harvest Moon.

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - Aisha, his half-sister???

[Ryllharu]

Are you pulling a DarthEnder now? Sylphie is not the main character. She's now a mother-to-be. And even then there's the possibility of her princess-friend calling for her help. Everything about her status quo is FINE. This is Rudy's story and it's progressing in an interesting way.

Why does it matter that Sylphie is CURRENTLY not the utmost exciting character? That doesn't mean anything should be cut or rewritten, holy shit. Sometimes I want to play Harvest Moon.

Because she's one of the main heroines...except she might as well be a tertiary support character.

Hypothetically, take her completely out of the story after the teleport incident and resolve the ED arc with Roxy in THIS arc.

Does a lack of Sylphie change the narrative? Not one bit. That means she presently serves no purpose in the narrative.

Ariel is going to call Rudeus. Not Sylphie, she's done in the story. Arguably, the only reason Sylphie even needed to come back into the story was to serve as a lazy plot bridge to connect Rudeus with Ariel. Which his cousin does anyway. She's redundant. The fact that she's very boring and obedient means there's no means for her to change the dynamics within the series.

[MFauli]

Because she's one of the main heroines...except she might as well be a tertiary support character.

Hypothetically, take her completely out of the story after the teleport incident and resolve the ED arc with Roxy in THIS arc.

Does a lack of Sylphie change the narrative? Not one bit. That means she presently serves no purpose in the narrative.

Ariel is going to call Rudeus. Not Sylphie, she's done in the story. Arguably, the only reason Sylphie even needed to come back into the story was to serve as a lazy plot bridge to connect Rudeus with Ariel. Which his cousin does anyway. She's redundant. The fact that she's very boring and obedient means there's no means for her to change the dynamics within the series.

Would not seeing Roxy again change the narrative? (unless you consider the potential cheating of Rudy's on Sylphie with her "narrative") She could have never appeared again and the main plot would have progressed the same. Instead of Roxy, Rudy's dad would have hired someone else and still called Rudy for help eventually, leading to the rescuing of Zenith.

Heck, Sylphie being an elf has the potential for some important future development, imagine Rudy entering an elfen society and everyone's hostile to humans, but then Sylphie appears and is like "yo guys, this is my hubby, pls be nice" :D

Tbh it feels like you just don't like parts of the plot and instead of admitting that, you try to create general rules that justify your dislike, when there's really nothing wrong with Sylphie and what happened wth her. Anyway, new episode out!

[DarthEnderX]

Oh no, how dare a woman dream of marrying, having children and leading a peaceful family life!!1 /s

This sort of attitude is what makes modern feminism so toxic :/ Persuing a career is fine. Persuing family life is fine, too. And Sylphie is great. If only she had female curves.Having children and leading a peaceful family life is great.

I don't want to watch a goddamn show about that.

Sylphie is a great person. She's also completely boring. The point of a character should be to be interesting. Sylphie is not.

[Ryllharu]

Heck, Sylphie being an elf has the potential for some important future development, imagine Rudy entering an elfen society and everyone's hostile to humans, but then Sylphie appears and is like "yo guys, this is my hubby, pls be nice" :D

Tbh it feels like you just don't like parts of the plot and instead of admitting that, you try to create general rules that justify your dislike, when there's really nothing wrong with Sylphie and what happened wth her. Anyway, new episode out!
First off, she's 1/4, so absolutely nothing. Elinalise is a full elf, and despite the fact that she's her grandmother, Rudeus met her independently and would have known Elinalise through both Paul and Roxy.

And secondly, your lack of self-awareness could not be funnier.

[MFauli]

Season 2 - Episode 22:

I'm actually crying. Well, I got teary eyes. Can't stand when dads who've just been trying to do the right thing die. Why can't we have some bs miracle anime thing here? Ugh.

And Zenith got Cyaska'd. Wow.


Having children and leading a peaceful family life is great.

I don't want to watch a goddamn show about that.

Okay, other people want that. So it's not about a general rule but personal taste. That is okay.

[Ryllharu]

Season 2 - Episode 22:

I'm actually crying. Well, I got teary eyes. Can't stand when dads who've just been trying to do the right thing die. Why can't we have some bs miracle anime thing here? Ugh.

And Zenith got Cyaska'd. Wow.
The pyrrhic victory really sucks, but it is good that this series reminds us of what type of world it is. The fact that strong healing spells can regrow limbs at all is a miracle. Rudy's nearly died before from lethal attacks, and this world as a whole is fairly unforgiving.

Even the magic and sword fighter abilities are fairly balanced. Rudeus would have died a few times over the past several years if not for the random blessing of the Demon Empress giving him an eye of foresight. But even that had its limits. A stronger swordsman below Ghislaine's level still can kill him pretty easily.

But Paul at least really got to show off in his last encounter. His goals achieved, his son didn't die in the attempt. Fair trade to him. That cocky smile at his last breath showed it all.

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, so Rudy traded his dad and a hand, for Roxy and a badly damaged mom.

Question is, is God right, does Rudy regret coming now.


And Zenith got Cyaska'd.Was literally going to say that. :p


Okay, other people want that. So it's not about a general rule but personal taste.Good for them. They can go watch "My Peaceful Life as an Apothecary in Another World" or whatever.

[Buffalobiian]

@Buff - Aisha, his half-sister???

That's the one.


I'd been spoiled re: Pauls' death and Zenith's state, but Paul's death still hit pretty hard. Him not actually saying anything with his last breath was way more impactful than if he had I reckon. (And this is why you let people say their death flaggy stuff since otherwise you wouldn't get anything at all).

I was mildly surprised they didn't carry Paul back in an ice coffin or something.

The episode did make it seem like Rudy dropped the ball by celebrating early, but even before he did that, the hydra was onto him anyway and he wasn't able to dodge everything, so I'm not too sure it'd have made a difference overall.

I'm a bit annoyed that dispelling mana means rock drops etc don't work, but it'll have to do from a narrative perspective. It'd only work in a show where you shoot actual mana beams. Mushoku Tensei's attack spells have all been physical manipulation of matter.

[MFauli]

And it needs to be said: What a gorgeous RPG-like fight this was! This is what most gamers who play RPGs imagine the battles in their shitty games to be like. I wish video games would finally reach the level where the presentation of a game approaches this level of cinematicness. Just great.

[David75]

Pretty sure Rudeus will get an automaton arm once they fully understand how the mana powered one works.
Paul dying, well shit happens. And he's the only one from the party to be dead. The first encounter could have been the last.
The other one dead is Zenith, probably a blessing for her since she's not waking to learn her husband died trying to save her.
We probably won't have miracle healing for that. I guess it's similar to a stroke, her brain cells lacking oxygen for too long.

The question I've seen and I like is to evaluate if Rudeus will regret having lost a hand, a dad and mom, instead of just his mom and Roxy. For the later, it's also possible he would have never known. But I'm pretty sure his relationship with Paul and sisters would've sour.

So the match is half dead mom, dead dad, present Roxy and lost hand vs dead mom, absent Roxy and sour familly relationship
I feel like what we have now is a little better for Rudeus.
He clearly stated he's a little foreign to that mom.
Though he respects Paul, he was not that compatible with him. Still a great loss.
Losing left hand, well he states himself it's not that much of a deal. And I'm pretty sure he'll get a mechanical/mana powered one.
The greatest benefit is having Roxy in his world again.

[MFauli]

Pretty sure Rudeus will get an automaton arm once they fully understand how the mana powered one works.
Paul dying, well shit happens. And he's the only one from the party to be dead. The first encounter could have been the last.
The other one dead is Zenith, probably a blessing for her since she's not waking to learn her husband died trying to save her.
We probably won't have miracle healing for that. I guess it's similar to a stroke, her brain cells lacking oxygen for too long.

The question I've seen and I like is to evaluate if Rudeus will regret having lost a hand, a dad and mom, instead of just his mom and Roxy. For the later, it's also possible he would have never known. But I'm pretty sure his relationship with Paul and sisters would've sour.

So the match is half dead mom, dead dad, present Roxy and lost hand vs dead mom, absent Roxy and sour familly relationship
I feel like what we have now is a little better for Rudeus.
He clearly stated he's a little foreign to that mom.
Though he respects Paul, he was not that compatible with him. Still a great loss.
Losing left hand, well he states himself it's not that much of a deal. And I'm pretty sure he'll get a mechanical/mana powered one.
The greatest benefit is having Roxy in his world again.

I'm sorry, but I find this whole "question" to be that of a psychopath. Why would you pitch it against each other like that? Things happen, nobody knew beforehand, the end. The only one who knew was Hitogami and he doesn't care. People he loved died and were saved, that's it.

[Ryllharu]

I'm sorry, but I find this whole "question" to be that of a psychopath. Why would you pitch it against each other like that? Things happen, nobody knew beforehand, the end. The only one who knew was Hitogami and he doesn't care. People he loved died and were saved, that's it.
It is exactly what Hitogami posed were his choices. Hitogami told him not to go and promised Rudeus that he'd impregnate one of the beastgirls.

I suppose the real question is whether or not Hitogami can still be believed or trusted. I'm thinking the answer is a firm "No" now, because Rudeus is the one of saved Roxy. He may be injured, lost his father, and his mother may be 'lost' as well, but it can still be said that in the grand scheme of the sociopathic calculus at work here, Rudeus was right to go and Hitogami's 'guidance' was false.

[David75]

He had that layed out yes.
And he's quite cold/detached/sociopath to most people of that world bar a few exceptions.
So he will clearly rate the path he took against not going and decide for himself that he regrets nothing since he saved Roxy and he now knows she'd be dead without him.
Sure, if he stayed he would never have known about Roxy.
But he didn't and he knows she'd be dead.

[MFauli]

It'd be a more interesting moral question if Hitogami directly told Rudy this: If you go, your dad dies. If you stay, Roxy dies.

[Kraco]

Let's not forget that even if Rudeus himself has an emotionally distant relationship with his parents, the same is not true especially for Norn. Aisha can probably do just fine with only Lillia. You could say that a huge factor in Rudeus accepting this mission was Norn. Now, of course, Norn will have no dad anymore and a mother who's not really there. Learning all of this will be extremely painful for Norn. But then again, I'm not yet ready to assume, too quickly, that Zenith's brain can't be healed.

All in all, even if everything didn't go smoothly for a Hollywood ending, it absolutely was better to try than not to try. Rudeus has a history of depression. I hope this won't trigger another period of it. He might feel like he doesn't have the right to be happy anymore.

I wonder if the fight animation was at fault or if it was Rudeus. There was something wrong about how Rudeus kept losing awareness of his surroundings. It's doubly weird because of his future vision. He just keeps getting distracted by whatever. Perhaps it would be best for him to either avoid combat altogether or figure out why he's like that, in order to fix his flaws.

[MFauli]

Zenith can absolutely be healed, would be stupid if not. More importantly, though, this gives both Norn and Aisha a perfect meaning for their life: Aisha no longer is just a maid for fun, she's now caretaking of Zenith. And Norn will have the drive to study healing magic to restore her mother's health. And Sylphie gets to train for with the "big baby" for when hers is born >_>

But yeah, seeing Rudy and Norn meet will be tought. "Dad died when he saved me" might not be to Norn's liking. "SO HE'D BE ALIVE IF NOT FOR YOU!!!1"

[DarthEnderX]

(And this is why you let people say their death flaggy stuff since otherwise you wouldn't get anything at all). Exactly! Don't cut people off!


Why would you pitch it against each other like that?Because God did.


There was something wrong about how Rudeus kept losing awareness of his surroundings. It's doubly weird because of his future vision. He just keeps getting distracted by whatever. Perhaps it would be best for him to either avoid combat altogether or figure out why he's like that, in order to fix his flaws.Maybe the mana dissipation was dissipating his future sight.


But yeah, seeing Rudy and Norn meet will be tought. "Dad died when he saved me" might not be to Norn's liking. "SO HE'D BE ALIVE IF NOT FOR YOU!!!1"He probably doesn't need to give her the blow-by-blow details of Paul's death.

[shinta|hikari]

He should. That is the right thing to do.

He should also explain that Paul almost got them killed the first round because of him. And that if not for him, all of them would be dead, which is not something they can say for literally anyone else in their group. And that he lost a hand to save Zenith when Paul just croaked because he wasn't strong enough.

Fuck Paul, deadbeat dad shithead. Thank mangod he is dead.

[MFauli]

Worst take ever, shinta, go apologize to your wife!




Maybe the mana dissipation was dissipating his future sight.

Maybe that. My first thought was that, because there was at least one weirdly "intimate" moment of the Hydra staring at Rudy, that it is so powerful and thus so close to the Dragon God that his eye powers don't work on it. Similarily to how I imagine they wouldn't work against the Dragon God or probably any "God".

[DarthEnderX]

He should. That is the right thing to do.

He should also explain that Paul almost got them killed the first round because of him. And that if not for him, all of them would be dead, which is not something they can say for literally anyone else in their group. And that he lost a hand to save Zenith when Paul just croaked because he wasn't strong enough.None of that sounds like the right thing to do. It, in fact, sounds like a "dick move".

[shinta|hikari]

It is, because I hate Paul.

Wait, you guys like that asshole??

[Buffalobiian]

Maybe that. My first thought was that, because there was at least one weirdly "intimate" moment of the Hydra staring at Rudy, that it is so powerful and thus so close to the Dragon God that his eye powers don't work on it. Similarily to how I imagine they wouldn't work against the Dragon God or probably any "God".



Rudy's eye didn't stop working because he got close.

He just celebrated early, then lost his shit when the dragon was in his face. He wasn't actually kidding when he told Roxy that he gets scared (easily). He's quite calm at times, but when danger is rammed right up his ass he too loses his shit.

[MFauli]

Really makes me wonder if Rudy has hit his power ceiling, because he doesn't appear meaningfully stronger now compared to when he first went to the snow town at the start of the season where he obliterated wyverns and monster bears in the dozens. I would have hoped that he grows strong enough to at least fend off and survive another hostile encounter with the dragon god.


It is, because I hate Paul.

Wait, you guys like that asshole??

What the heck, shinta. Yes, I love Paul. He's what I'd like to be. A strong, dependable man who gets to enjoy multiple hot girls and has a cute family. The perfect life.

[Kraco]

Really makes me wonder if Rudy has hit his power ceiling, because he doesn't appear meaningfully stronger now compared to when he first went to the snow town at the start of the season where he obliterated wyverns and monster bears in the dozens. I would have hoped that he grows strong enough to at least fend off and survive another hostile encounter with the dragon god.

Have we ever had an arc where Rudeus would have actually tried to get stronger for real? He seems to have developed his power during the time skips, but he has never been driven by pure ambition to become strong. He developed the anti-magic spell inspired by Orsted, but that's about it, it's hard to feel like he would have been trying to become a master of anything. As far as I can see, his dream is to live a comfortable life with his family. That's it. His one and only edge is the infinite mana pool, but he doesn't have what it takes to actually exploit it meaningfully: no extreme skills/spells, no correct attitude to thrive in life and death battles. Rudeus should still be dead meat if Orsted ever comes back for a rematch.

[MFauli]

Rudeus should still be dead meat if Orsted ever comes back for a rematch.


Yeah, and that's the problem. Why take a chance when you're a magic prodigy that has the potential to overcome this threat?

[shinta|hikari]

But Paul is a serial cheater. If you want to have a harem, get approval from current partner/s first.

Remember, if it weren't for Rudy's magical maturity, the maid and her fetus would be dead on the road somewhere due to Zenith's wrath.

Paul deserves to get bisected.

[MFauli]

Where's the fun in having a harem if you need to ask for approval?!

[DarthEnderX]

Wait, you guys like that asshole??No. But you aren't punishing Paul there. You're punishing Norn.

"Hey! Wanna hear what a fuckup the guy you made me go and lose a hand for was? You're dad was such a loser! Say hi to your braindead mum!"

[shinta|hikari]

I hate Norn about as much as Paul, so working as designed.

@Mfauli - BTW, my very real wife also hates Paul and Norn. I'd beat her ass if she didn't.

[DarthEnderX]

BTW, my very real wife also hates Paul and Norn. I'd beat her ass if she didn't.She's sounding realer every minute!

[DarthEnderX]

23

---

*Paul's ghost nods approvingly*

[Ryllharu]

Zzzzzz.

This episode was trash.

All the interesting dialogues occurred off screen ("Yes, Elinalise told me."), seducing someone while they're grieving is toxic as hell, and objectively very little happened in this episode because all the interesting parts will come after they get back fully home.

It's piss-poor writing and storyboarding like this that makes me annoyed that this series is so highly thought of in Japan.

[Buffalobiian]

Remember when Ruijerd said to Eris "If he's feeling down, you should comfort him yourself"?

Roxy just went all the way with that.

It feels weird though.

[David75]

He's a Greyrat, what did you expect?

[DarthEnderX]

Nothing cures depression like gettin' some!

Unless the cause of your depression is ED...

[David75]

Also, Hitogami told Rudeus he'd regret leaving.
Last week I thought that was Paul dying and seeing Zenith as she is.
What if something also happened at home while he was gone, something only Rudeus could have prevented? Hope Sylphiette isn't the victim.

Regarding polygamy, I think I remember Sylphiette telling Rudeus she did not mind him having several wives.
But maybe once she's confronted to that reality, she will change her mind.

[MFauli]

So, how long until the 3rd season starts? Only 1 episode remaining and this one was very slooooow. As much as I like Rudy boning Roxy at long last, there really didn't happen much. Could have shortend the whole Roxy-romancing to the first half and make the second half about the arrival at home. sigh.

Fwiw I'm glad this anime dares go into detail about having more than one wife. There's no objective rule that says only having one wife makes sense, and the whole "you can only love one person" is also bs. I wonder if there's cases of one woman having multiple husbands, though, it'd be a bit weird that way round, not gonna lie. All women have lesbian tendencies, but no straight man would go near another man.

In regards to season 3, again, I hope it finally hyperfocuses on the bigger plot points. Not just as some side projects with a little bit of info here and there, but pressing forward at full speed. Mainly:
- finding a way back "home"
- who is Laplace and how to punish him
- growing strong enough to protect his family from the Dragon god in case something ever happened
- what is the Hitogami's goal, is it something good, and if not, cann he be fought against?

And meeting Eris again would be nice, too.


Remember when Ruijerd said to Eris "If he's feeling down, you should comfort him yourself"?

Roxy just went all the way with that.

It feels weird though.

Die she "go all the way", though? Later at the first camp fire, Rudy thought to himself that he promised Sylphie to stay faithful, so he cannot proceed. Which to me implied that they hadn't had sex at this point? Although the bed scene certainly evoked the impression of them having sex. I dunno.

[David75]

Do you have stats backing that lesbian statement?
Polygamy or polyandry is relatd to society rules and the way it works. That medieval like society with lots of physical violence and monsters sure put emphasis on strength that favors patriarchy.

Regarding faithfulness, it feels like it was related to his feelings and having sex isn't unfaithful, as strange as it sounds... Maybe like a presidential blowjob not considered as a sexual intercourse ?

[Kraco]

Regarding polygamy, I think I remember Sylphiette telling Rudeus she did not mind him having several wives.
But maybe once she's confronted to that reality, she will change her mind.

It should make things easier that the second wife would be Roxy. Sylphie ought to know how much Roxy meant to Rudeus from early age, consequently also affecting Sylphie herself a whole lot. It's entirely possible they might not have ever interacted in the village without Roxy having appeared as Rudeus's teacher. If they hadn't, Sylphie would have learned neither (silent) magic nor proper manners, resulting in her not becoming Ariel's bodyguard, if indeed she had even survived the teleportation incident. Through a proxy it may be, yet Roxy still had a gigantic effect on Sylphie's own life. It wouldn't really be healthy if Sylphie accepted Roxy out of a sense of gratitude, but just remembering Roxy isn't a perfect stranger must mean something. Positive feelings are positive feelings, nonetheless. Sylphie and Roxy also have a lot in common, both having spent a lot of time in Paul's household.

I didn't really mind this episode. Roxy doing what she did worked. It was partially out of her own lust and love, but the end result speaks for itself: It did knock Rudeus out of his misery. The ep was slow, but ever since the first two cours, this has been a slow series. Nobody's shocked by that anymore.

[DarthEnderX]

I wonder if there's cases of one woman having multiple husbands, though, it'd be a bit weird that way round, not gonna lie. All women have lesbian tendencies, but no straight man would go near another man.*sigh*

/insert something woke

[MFauli]

*sigh*

/insert something woke

At least you're self-aware <3

[Ryllharu]

I wonder if there's cases of one woman having multiple husbands, though, it'd be a bit weird that way round, not gonna lie.

If it is going to be anyone who is named in the series, my bet would be it is going to be Princess Ariel.

The immortal demon empress would be another, but she and Badigadi are monogamous by the sound of it.

[shinta|hikari]

Rudeus is a cheating bastard like his father.

I have no idea why all of you just ignored that.

@Mfauli - Women also like to collect harem members if they can. Look at all the cheating bitches that have many baby daddies.

[MFauli]

Rudeus is a cheating bastard like his father.

I have no idea why all of you just ignored that.

Yeah, and I find that oddly heartwarming :D Paul's spirit lives on in Rudy ^^


@Mfauli - Women also like to collect harem members if they can. Look at all the cheating bitches that have many baby daddies.

Yeah, and we judge them negatively for it.

I mean, this is a bigger discourse, but I'm annoyed how modern Western society tries to equalize men and women so hard that ANY differences are being ignored and even taboo'ed. Ofc, the law should treat both genders the same. But when it comes to biological facts, there's undeniable differences. One being: Men can spread their sperm in the millions, every day. Women can only get pregnant about once a year, think about the longterm consequences. Men have to work hard to get pussy. Women protect their pussy and only have to say "you're allowed" and get a man. Man and women are not the same. Therefore, a man with a harem is something to be respected (unless money is involved), because he worked hard to get these women. A woman with multiple guys? She's just a thirsty slut, because no effort was involved.

And now you guys can crucify me as a misogynistic mega nazi :D

[MFauli]

S2 Part 2 Episode 12:

It was a nice wrap up .... for a story that's still ongoing!

I really wish they'd have ended the season with SOME teaser for what will pull Rudy out of this massive comfort zone he's created for himself now. There's only one dangerous thing lingering above him rn, which is Hitogami's "you'll regret going there". Which I would have attributed to Paul dying, but Rudy himself said in this episode that that was sadness, not regret. And then the episode ends on "I want to live a live that I can end without regrets". So ... we probably haven't yet found out about the regret cause. And tbh, with 2 wives, a daughter, two sisters, a helpless mother and a secondary mother, there's SOOOO much potential for tragedy and thus regret. If I had to make a spontaneous guess, I'd say the regret will come from Zenith, maybe some evil spirit has her possessed and some day Rudy wakes up and Zenith has slaughtered some members of this big family.

That aside, I'm not sure whether the 2-wives-situation was done plausibly. I think it'd be best for NOBODY watching this to draw any real life-comparisons, because not only is this a fantasy world, we also had Sylphie explicitely give her okay for Rudy to fuck around, and Roxy was okay with it before they arrived. So, in this specific situation, it was a good resolution. I'd have preferred a little more Paul-references, more than they did. Some more jokes about how Rudy has become Paul for real now, lol.

Anyway, can't wait for season 3, BUT hopefully that won't be a slice of life-season stationary at their home.

[Ryllharu]

Given how garbage the overall episode of Mushoku Tensei was last week, I'm suitably impressed with how telling Norn went. Actual decent writing, natural reactions from Norn, and good acting of it.

Norn was probably the highlight of this episode for me. Even if people generally hate her, I think she had very natural reactions to the circumstances in this episode and it was refreshing for a character to be upset when she should, unhappy about the results, but understand that her father went out valiantly protecting his family. Rudeus missing an arm alone proved that the whole group went into a fight that surpassed their capabilities and paid the corresponding price.

Norn didn't immediately back down from being upset because of it, she only calmed down after they gave her the play-by-play of what led to the pyrrhic victory.

Norn is finally starting to feel like a complete character.


That aside, I'm not sure whether the 2-wives-situation was done plausibly. I think it'd be best for NOBODY watching this to draw any real life-comparisons, because not only is this a fantasy world, we also had Sylphie explicitely give her okay for Rudy to fuck around, and Roxy was okay with it before they arrived. So, in this specific situation, it was a good resolution. I'd have preferred a little more Paul-references, more than they did. Some more jokes about how Rudy has become Paul for real now, lol.
I think it did go plausibly. Sylphie is still a boring doormat of a character, so her accepting it was a given. Norn got to voice the expected opposition and was the perfect character to do so given how normally righteous she is. Rudy didn't deny any of what Norn was calling him out for, so we didn't get an obnoxious harem style speech about how being a pervy douche is okay behavior because of some bullshit or another. He knew he could get potentially criticized for it and did. They even nicely tied back in Norn's previous depression and to try to placate her, but while it didn't fully work, they even had Norn acknowledge that she was being a bit unreasonable and that not one of Paul's children is a follower of Millis.

It annoys me that Slyphie is such a passive character with very little spark to her. But it is consistent with her bland character.

[Buffalobiian]

I did like Norn's display here.

I do imagine that she'd have given Rudy a much harder time had he not lost his hand. That pisses me off, but whatever.

She burned Roxy for being small which I thought was funny given we know she's at least 50 years old.

We didn't have any room for it in this episode, but I'd love to see some Zanoba-Roxy interactions; that guy admires Roxy too.



As for the whole regret thing, if Rudy hadn't had gone:

1) Paul probably wouldn't have died because he wouldn't have made it to the bottom floor.
2) Roxy would be dead, but if they never found her then they'd forever think she's missing.
3) Mum would still be missing.

[DarthEnderX]

I think it did go plausibly. Sylphie is still a boring doormat of a character, so her accepting it was a given. Norn got to voice the expected opposition and was the perfect character to do so given how normally righteous she is.Really? I think it's weird she has such a huge problem with it. Given that the dad she worships also had 2 wives.


As for the whole regret thing, if Rudy hadn't had gone:

1) Paul probably wouldn't have died because he wouldn't have made it to the bottom floor.
2) Roxy would be dead, but if they never found her then they'd forever think she's missing.
3) Mum would still be missing.But on the other hand, he'd still have...the other hand.

[MFauli]

Yeah, how DARE Sylphie be a mom. Moms are so BLAND!11 /s




As for the whole regret thing, if Rudy hadn't had gone:

1) Paul probably wouldn't have died because he wouldn't have made it to the bottom floor.
2) Roxy would be dead, but if they never found her then they'd forever think she's missing.
3) Mum would still be missing.

No, you misunderstood something. Hitogami told him he'd regret it IF he went. He went. So now something happened that Rudy wil regret, but apparently we don't know yet what it is.

[Ryllharu]

I do imagine that she'd have given Rudy a much harder time had he not lost his hand. That pisses me off, but whatever.

I think it would have been justifiable and fitting her character. She believes her brother is incredibly strong. She knows he's stronger than Paul. She's heard the stories of him facing off against the demon emperor in the courtyard. She's heard all about his incredible feats. As much as she admired Paul for many years, she knows her older brother is very strong.

Had he come back unscathed, she might have thought he was pandering to her. She might have thought he could have done more, tried harder, been better, been the "Hero" he supposedly is.

But seeing him down a forearm immediately proves they were already at their limit against whatever killed their father.


No, you misunderstood something. Hitogami told him he'd regret it IF he went. He went. So now something happened that Rudy wil regret, but apparently we don't know yet what it is.
I think you're forgetting something. Hitogami has an expected outcome for Rudeus and those around him. We don't know what it is. Hitogami has been manipulating him for a long time, including forcing him to manifest in his old body in their discussions. His prediction was an attempt to sway Rudeus into what HE wants, not what Rudeus wants.

[DarthEnderX]

Besides, Rudy concluded that he'd regret his decision no matter which path he chose. And God was like, "Mmmmm...maybe!" So he was probably correct.

[Kraco]

No, you misunderstood something. Hitogami told him he'd regret it IF he went. He went. So now something happened that Rudy wil regret, but apparently we don't know yet what it is.


I think you're forgetting something. Hitogami has an expected outcome for Rudeus and those around him. We don't know what it is. Hitogami has been manipulating him for a long time, including forcing him to manifest in his old body in their discussions. His prediction was an attempt to sway Rudeus into what HE wants, not what Rudeus wants.

I fully believe Hitogami didn't actually foresee Rudeus being able to use the teleportation circles to make the trip. While Hitogami obviously is also a liar, so anything he says can potentially be a simple lie to drive his unknown agenda, in this case even if there was some concrete thing Rudeus would regret or not regret (that is, we are assuming Hitogami wasn't lying), Rudeus might have simply avoided the whole thing by cutting the years long trip to mere months. We have seen previous proof, potentially unless it was just another lie, that as long as the other "gods" are involved, Hitogami isn't anymore quite as wise as he would be otherwise. Those teleportation circles are a secret guarded by Orsted, so Hitogami might have been mostly unaware of their potential use.

I had no problems with the second wife presentation in the episode. The scene went better than I expected. At the end of the day, it was almost funny Sylphie readily acknowledged she knew what she was getting into when she married a Grayrat. It's sure a key to a happy marriage that you can accept certain fundamental things about the other person before you make the decision to marry. The world is full of failed marriages that were based on the wish to reshape the other person after the rings have been exchanged. I'd say the important thing here is that Rudeus did pick a meaningful person, not just some random woman. She pretty much said it in this episode herself, but Roxy is a person Sylphie can very much sympathise with. Furthermore, even if Sylphie had never met Roxy before personally, one might say she almost had since without Roxy, it's possible nothing would have happened between Sylphie and Rudeus back in the village.

[MFauli]

The question now is: Will we see the three of them sleep in the same bed? Will Sylphie and Roxy have some nice lesbian action? Will Rudy watch them like a total perv (relatable)? Or is it going to be some lame "I will sleep in a separate room" bs?

On a more serious note: Since everything is TOO happy for a series that's in the middle of its running, one thing I'd LOVE to see happen is Hitogami at some point forcing Rudy to live in his old pre-isekai body again - while still in the isekai! I've felt for a long time that, no matter what psychological harships Rudy goes through, he still enjoys the huge feat of having this new, young, handsome body. That's easily on par with being reborn at all. He might have overcome his psychological problems, but he has surely not overcome the insecurities of his old appearance. As someone who's more like Rudy's old self (worse ...), I'd love to see this anime tackle that side of his old problems, too. How would he react if everything stayed the same, except now he has his own body back? How would the others react? Would Sylphie and Roxy still love him despite being ugly and fat? Would Norn and Aisha still treat him as their brother? What about all his friends? Being handsome is such an enormous advantage on top of magic powers and stuff, seeing how Rudy overcomes his true appearance would be super exciting.

But this story will probably shrug over it. Bummer.

[Kraco]

I very much doubt Hitogami would even have the power to pull off such a thing. Plus why would he do it? He managed to bring over Rudeus's soul from Japan and plant it into a fetus. That must have been for a reason. By the looks of it, he's expecting certain things from Rudeus. So far he has tried to entice or trick Rudeus into doing certain things. It has worked fairly well, I suppose, though only Hitogami would really know. Perhaps he's only trying to keep Rudeus alive and make him a powerhouse for now. I can't see how punishing Rudeus by returning him to his decrepit Japanese body would help with anything. It would only make Rudeus hate Hitogami.

Also, it's not his true appearance. Not anymore. If anything, this second life is his true life, not the wasted first life back in Japan.

[David75]

So third wife should be Eris... and she will want to be the first obviously :D

[MFauli]

I very much doubt Hitogami would even have the power to pull off such a thing. Plus why would he do it? He managed to bring over Rudeus's soul from Japan and plant it into a fetus. That must have been for a reason. By the looks of it, he's expecting certain things from Rudeus. So far he has tried to entice or trick Rudeus into doing certain things. It has worked fairly well, I suppose, though only Hitogami would really know. Perhaps he's only trying to keep Rudeus alive and make him a powerhouse for now. I can't see how punishing Rudeus by returning him to his decrepit Japanese body would help with anything. It would only make Rudeus hate Hitogami.

Also, it's not his true appearance. Not anymore. If anything, this second life is his true life, not the wasted first life back in Japan.

Why Hitogami would do it? Easy: Rudy starts opposing him, Hitogami reacts like any god in fiction and dishes out severe punishment. How Rudy could oppose him? By associating himself with another god (becoming Orsted's disciple? lol). One thing I've been sure since the beginning: Hitogami is NOT Rudy's friend. Rudy is a pawn for him to whatever means. The moment Hitogami sees no further use in him AND Rudy manages to upset him, anything goes.

Again, I doubt it will happen, but it's easy to find reasons.

[DarthEnderX]

Everyone is so down on God for seemingly no reason. So far, he's never steered Rudy wrong once. But both Rudy, and the audience, always think he's up to no good.

Is it just because he has the stereotypical anime trickster voice?


So third wife should be ErisI mean, it's pretty obvious we'll get there eventually.

[Ryllharu]

Everyone is so down on God for seemingly no reason. So far, he's never steered Rudy wrong once. But both Rudy, and the audience, always think he's up to no good.

Is it just because he has the stereotypical anime trickster voice?
He very clearly tried to persuade Rudeus wrong this time.

- Roxy would have died.
- Paul and one or more of the others would have died in a similar manner without the book guiding them through the dungeon.
- Zenith would have remained encased in crystal, presumably forever because they never would have found the secret stairs without going through the teleporter that Nanahoshi knew about.
- Impregnating the beast girls when they're in heat would have resulted in Rudeus losing the respect of his sister and probably the trust of his wife.

How that cascade of events serves Hitogami, we do not know. But he was pretty insistent that going to help his parents was the "wrong" decision.

But we know the outcome Rudeus chose instead benefitted Rudeus greatly despite the cost.

It's not the trickster voice. It's all the super manipulative dialogue techniques that Hitogami has been doing to Rudeus this entire time.

[Kraco]

He very clearly tried to persuade Rudeus wrong this time.

- Roxy would have died.
- Paul and one or more of the others would have died in a similar manner without the book guiding them through the dungeon.
- Zenith would have remained encased in crystal, presumably forever because they never would have found the secret stairs without going through the teleporter that Nanahoshi knew about.
- Impregnating the beast girls when they're in heat would have resulted in Rudeus losing the respect of his sister and probably the trust of his wife.

How that cascade of events serves Hitogami, we do not know. But he was pretty insistent that going to help his parents was the "wrong" decision.

But we know the outcome Rudeus chose instead benefitted Rudeus greatly despite the cost.

It's not the trickster voice. It's all the super manipulative dialogue techniques that Hitogami has been doing to Rudeus this entire time.

I'm repeating myself and perhaps other viewers disagree on my theory of Hitogami not foreseeing Rudeus using teleportation for travelling, but if Rudeus had made the trip normally, not through teleportation, Roxy would have been long dead. Paul might have also lost patience waiting for Rudeus and went back to the dungeon with the team, potentially losing more members for no gain. With those changes in place, it's entirely possible even with Rudeus, they still wouldn't have been able to rescue Zenith. Then Rudeus would have returned with absolutely nothing to show for it, only regrets. Paul might have still been alive, who knows, but I don't see how he would have given up, so he would have basically been just waiting for his death, returning to the dungeon time after time, never making any progress, until he died since it's a dangerous dungeon. Rudeus would have just cut his losses and left eventually. This could have been Hitogami's intended prediction.

[Buffalobiian]

On a more serious note: Since everything is TOO happy for a series that's in the middle of its running, one thing I'd LOVE to see happen is Hitogami at some point forcing Rudy to live in his old pre-isekai body again - while still in the isekai! I've felt for a long time that, no matter what psychological harships Rudy goes through, he still enjoys the huge feat of having this new, young, handsome body. That's easily on par with being reborn at all. He might have overcome his psychological problems, but he has surely not overcome the insecurities of his old appearance. As someone who's more like Rudy's old self (worse ...), I'd love to see this anime tackle that side of his old problems, too. How would he react if everything stayed the same, except now he has his own body back? How would the others react? Would Sylphie and Roxy still love him despite being ugly and fat? Would Norn and Aisha still treat him as their brother? What about all his friends? Being handsome is such an enormous advantage on top of magic powers and stuff, seeing how Rudy overcomes his true appearance would be super exciting

No real change, because:

1) He's still him inside
2) He's still an outstanding mage.

If he was no longer the outstanding mage, that would be more difficult.

Hitogami shouldn't be able to change his appearance, because despite being a "God" he doesn't seem to manipulate the physical world much. Rudy's soul reincarnated into his current body. This is real. It's just his perception that's warped in the dreams.


So third wife should be Eris... and she will want to be the first obviously

Indeed. I think that she'll settle for 3rd since:

1) She is "technically" first, and
2) She decided to bail because she "wasn't a good match", so that's on her.

[MFauli]

- Impregnating the beast girls when they're in heat would have resulted in Rudeus losing the respect of his sister and probably the trust of his wife.


Ok, NOW we know what the regret is ;>

Fuck Norn, impregnating TWO beast girls would have been worth it, plus Norn would eventually understand how men's minds work. Sylphie gave him the okay long ago, and tbh Sylphie would probably prefer Rudy to casually fuck around rather than bring home a second wife who he loves as much as her.

[DarthEnderX]

He very clearly tried to persuade Rudeus wrong this time.Lol, there's literally no way for you to be able to make that conclusion, because we have no idea what would have happened instead had he stayed(other than he would have had another kid, which, in and of itself, is already a pretty massive loss).



But we know the outcome Rudeus chose instead benefitted Rudeus greatly despite the cost.Did it? He gained a wife, but lost a hand and a potential child.

What if, at some pivotal point in the future, he's unable to save someone else, because he's missing a hand? It could be something as trivial as Sylphie dying because he's unable to reach out and grab her.

Or maybe beast kid would have ended up saving someone that he couldn't.

We simply don't have enough information. But you're insistence that we do is starting to border on manga-prophet territory.


Fuck Norn, impregnating TWO beast girls would have been worth it, plus Norn would eventually understand how men's minds work. But also how Beastman society works.

By having a child with one of the beastmen, he possibly would have earned the loyalty of their entire tribe. Which might have played a pivotal role in events later.

[Kraco]

I expect Rudeus to get his hand back at some point. The reactions to his missing appendage were exceptionally mild, if you ask me. Sylphie didn't even comment on it at all, if memory serves. It seemed equal to a soldier in our world coming back from a dangerous mission missing a few teeth. Must have been painful and a testament to the hardships suffered, but a visit to a dentist will see it fixed in such a manner that nobody will notice the difference afterwards.

[Buffalobiian]

Rather than it not being a big deal, I just assumed that it was small in the context of Paul dying.

[MFauli]

Fwiw I, too, fully expect him to get a hand again. Didn't someone here make the theory that he's get a mechanical hand using the puppet-magic?

[DarthEnderX]

Fwiw I, too, fully expect him to get a hand again. Didn't someone here make the theory that he's get a mechanical hand using the puppet-magic?Probably. But that doesn't mean something can't happen in the meantime.

Like another portal storm. He's holding someone in one hand, reaches for Sylphie with the other but...no hand. They end up separated again.

[Buffalobiian]

Probably. But that doesn't mean something can't happen in the meantime.

Like another portal storm. He's holding someone in one hand, reaches for Sylphie with the other but...no hand. They end up separated again.

"Rudy, if me and Roxy drown in a pool, who will you save?"

xD

(Answer would be use magic)

[MFauli]

"Rudy, if me and Roxy drown in a pool, who will you save?"

xD

(Answer would be use magic)

"Easy answer: I'd let both of you drown, because I love both of you so much. Then after an adequate period of briefing, I'd look for a new wife!"

[KrayZ33]

Watched this all in one go.
I was a bit let down by Ruijerd's appearance.

He's still the best character in the whole show and all that, but when they talked about Eris the whole scene felt really "forced"
If they somehow made an attempt to suggest that Ruijerd could know more about Eris' intend, like through an experience or information he had in the last years, that would've been fine. Or if they showed him actually "thinking" about it, it would've felt alright.

But it basically went like this:

Rudeus: "Eris disappeared on m-"
Ruijerd: "YOU MISUNDERSTOOD HER - *cough* hm, excuse me, M-A-Y-B-E you just misunderstood her, maybe not, who can tell!?"

Overall I'd say the last 3-4 episodes were great.
I was really amazed by the hydra fight and I think that one is easily the best anime fight ever made when it comes to fighting a giant monster class-enemy as a group of people or just fighting one its size in general. Without a doubt, even.
Paul's death came quick and I love the idea that he didn't get to say any words.
The small hint at a smile was all it took and all we needed. He was a weird/bad father but it's not like he was evil, he was just incompetent at being a father.

To me this felt like he was, for the first time, able to save Rudy and not the other way around and in the end, he was able to save Zenith without sacrificing anyone but himself (at least none of his friends, who knows with how many random parties they explored the ruins with). I actually felt really bad for him in the end and I still do, in fact, because he clearly loved his children and while he most likely had a more than just "fun" first half of his life, he never got around to see his grandchildren. Hell, not even that, he didn't even get to experience his own son und daughters growing up due to the teleportation incident.

Zenith seems to be somewhere between completely gone and then... not. Since this is Mushoku and I have a bit higher expectations for this show than others, I actually believe her grabbing the armor of Paul is intentional and not just pointless pandering among the lines of "Look, even the retard is sad".


Sylphie with long hair looks quite beautiful. (but it kinda also tells you how much of a "boring" role she has to play in this show if that's all I can say about her)

Roxies childish dream (season 1) of being rescued in a labyrinths became true
"One day, a tall, slim, young man who's manly but still makes childish expressions will save me by chance in the depths of a labyrinth. Then we'll team up, and as we work together, love will bloom between us..."
That was quite amusing.

I liked Norn's reactions as they were "believable". Her way of thinking was portrayed well and her bawling her eyes out was sad to witness. The "2nd wife" thing became quite intense and that was done/written in a good way aswell. To me at least it was quite believable that Rudeus didn't get Roxy in his harem for some "variety"-reasons, but because he actually loves her just like Sylphie.

Roxy was being bad here, but in my opinion the show didn't even try to hide it... way before she herself admitted it in person.
You could totally tell that she wanted to bed Rudy with ulterior motives (or for her own sake/hopes), to the point where I thought to myself "girl, you are really out of touch there... your timing sucks"
When she admitted doing so while *knowing* everything about his pregnant wife it started to make sense.
So in a way I actually respect this show writing that scene in that way, even if everyone got the "happy ending without consequences" (which tbh, is how I prefer it anyway) in the end.
But they did at least not shy away from showing Roxy with rather poor morals (love trumps everything after all, especially if FOMO comes along as well)


I need a reminder though, who is japanese girl mentioning again with "I have to ask her/him(?) about this teleport thing again" or something like that? I forgot the exact words, but I feel like it's not the dragon guy.

[MFauli]

"not for variety, but because he actually loves the two"

said every guy ever ;P

[Buffalobiian]

I need a reminder though, who is japanese girl mentioning again with "I have to ask her/him(?) about this teleport thing again" or something like that? I forgot the exact words, but I feel like it's not the dragon guy.

Not specified.

It's the person who owned Rudy's house and the puppet. The insignia looked very much like a dragon, but was objectively different to the previous symbol that was shown to represent the Dragon God.

[Kraco]

In a world where polygamy is normal, Roxy is far less immoral than she would be in most of our world. Of course if she knew Rudeus belongs to the Milis faith, it would be a different thing, but in fact she has a reason to suspect he doesn't, despite his mother. Furthermore, it's a world that has far more gender equality than the historical times in our reality, so women have every reason to be active in seeking their own happiness, without it raising eyebrows. It's obviously thanks to the great equaliser magic. She even knows Rudeus is a pervert, so her attack was not founded on nothing but her own lust and desire to have a single moment with Rudeus before he returns to his family: If a deeply religious person is in anguish, a priest would be the greatest help to them. If a battle junkie is depressed, a great, fair match might get them out of it. If a communist is feelings lost, slaughtering a capitalist would help them get their spirit back. Finally, if a pervert is feeling like it's the end of the world, having sex with a person they have loved since years ago would surely do the trick.

[KrayZ33]

Perhaps, but even where polygamy is normal, there are usually still rules that apply and you don't "bust in"(to) a relationship like that.
Often there is the 1st wive, the second wive, concubines, well... a hierarchy, and ideally all parties agree beforehand.

I mean, in the end it always takes two, but Roxy for sure did make use of Rudeus' mentally weak state and "pressed the issue forward". I was kinda relieved when I heard it in her own words because even after watching that scene for a second time, Roxy's way of cheering up Rudeus' felt really awkward and unnatural. It almost felt like what they were talking about was more about her than Rudeus.

As Norn rightfully pointed out, if she were convinced to step aside, she would have anyways after the "deed", but she had lingering hopes that got (thankfully) rewarded.
It's not that I dislike Roxy for that, in fact, almost the opposite because that made her character really interesting for me and not as one dimensional. I think overall that was a really great and "adult"(ery) moment for a topic in anime that is usually stopped with the wave of a hand. Either MC gets the girls just like that, with no conflict whatsoever, or all the girls - for whatever reason - accept that there is FemaleMC and give up because they know they are just supporting characters. Or they have a fake rivalry with female MC that they never actually intend on winning (or perhaps I should say that the author never intends to do anything with these additional characters).

What I also really loved is that Roxy stood there and took the "beating" from Norn and had no way to defend herself, because there just wasn't much she could rightfully say. Not sure how to put it into words, but she kinda accepted it gracefully and didn't turn sour.

Another thing that I found interesting, is that the teaching of Millis kinda are important for the people but not in a way that everyone seems to be "nuts" and fanatical about them, it doesn't seem like they are actively trying to convert unbelievers or shame them... at least the normal folk doesn't do that to each other.. That being said, at the same time we actually know that there is a powerstruggle in the church, one side wants demons gone, the other doesn't, so it's not like all of them are "open" to everyone.
It's likely that we just meet the good people that aren't the fanatics, but even they (as a faction) use assassins. But so far there was no "crazy priest" dooming everyone not following the faith.

Geese mentioned that, when they visited the Holy Country of Millis, Saint Millis supposedly cleaved the road out of mountains and forests in a single stroke, and you could actually tell that this isn't just 100% a legend, because the cliffs they passed looked very unnatural. If such power exists, it equals that of gods in my opinion.
So there seems to be some serious power bound to that faith.

[Kraco]

Not that Norn would have had anything to do with anything, though. Just a little while ago she intensely disliked and feared, if not hated, Rudeus. She got a mighty high horse suddenly. She's nothing but Rudeus's sister, so what happens in Rudeus+Sylphie family has got nothing to do with her. Rudeus is not Norn's dad, so he's giving her a home and looking after her only because he's a decent dude, who loves his birth family as well, not only his new family with Sylphie.

The moment the actual person this concerns the most, Sylphie, spoke, she welcomed Roxy in, having judged her worthy, and what she had previously learned of indirectly to be true. So, I wouldn't place much value on Norn's words. She was loud and judgemental, but it wasn't really her place to say all of that, even if it allowed Sylphie to evaluate Roxy further, by observing Roxy's reaction to all that.

[Buffalobiian]

From a narrative and perhaps psychological perspective it's useful to have Norn vent on Sylphie's behalf, regardless of whether or not Sylphie would have spoken those words herself.

It shows her that there's someone that supports her, and also allows the frustration to be vented. It's easier for her to be the nicer person once the frustration is vented, regardless of who does it.

[KrayZ33]

Norn was just showing empathy towards Sylphie and fought for her on her behalf because it doesn't take much to realise that Sylphie herself won't do that often, even if it would benefit her and even if it would be the right thing to do.

Norn is Rudeus' sister (full), Rudeus isn't just a decent dude, he is the head of family now and has the responsibility to take care of Norn btw.
Saying it's "only because he is a decent dude" is a bit silly (or not doing it justice) because you are acting like Norn is an adult that can take care of herself(?). Literally everything Rudeus decides to do is directly affecting her for the near future.
Rudeus + Sylphie family *is* Norns family. It's also quite unfair to her because she didn't get to decide to be there with Rudeus, that's a decision the former head of family made. Paul.


But true, it's quite obvious that Norn just feels hurt for Sylphie's sake and doesn't actually know or trust Roxy yet. It feels wrong to her and promises made to a person she learned to respect (and that is very vulnerable right now) were seemingly broken. In my opinion it is proof that she has quite strong ideals and perhaps her stubborn attitude is getting in the way of making friendly discussions.
But unlike Eris at the beginning, at least Norn doesn't seem to be completely unaware of her lack of skills, especially since both her sister and brother are geniuses and she is just "average" - so I think she can handle not being right or having her way all the time.

[Kraco]

Norn is a part of Rudeus's biological family, but she has got no part in the Rudeus+Sylphie+Roxy core family. It's not her business. Sure, you could say she was speaking for Sylphie, but how can you then say in the same paragraph that it's silly to assume Norn would act like an adult responsible for herself? She can speak on an adult's behalf but can't be considered responsible for herself, like an adult? How does that work? Her speech was nothing but the tirade of someone whose personal feelings and values were hurt, yet it doesn't really concern her personally. Yes, her outburst did help Sylphie to better understand Roxy's character, but I was feeling sorry for Roxy, who just needed to stand there and walk away in tears, until she was stopped by Sylphie, who actually understood what was going on.

It's honestly kind of strange how entitled Norn is acting all the time. Perhaps it's nothing but a psychological defense mechanism when she suffered through the years of hearing how mediocre she is, while her sister and brother were called geniuses. She could grow up to be a petty villainess, but at least she does have a great brother, so maybe that won't happen.

[KrayZ33]

Norn is a part of Rudeus's biological family, but she has got no part in the Rudeus+Sylphie+Roxy core family. It's not her business. Sure, you could say she was speaking for Sylphie, but how can you then say in the same paragraph that it's silly to assume Norn would act like an adult responsible for herself? She can speak on an adult's behalf but can't be considered responsible for herself, like an adult? How does that work?


wdym, lol.
What she did doesn't mean she is acting like an adult - or rather, that she has become one now.
Speaking up for a friend is the right thing to do and something you learn from your parents/the people you respect, and I'm sure you did this when you were 5 or 6 years old at a time perhaps if such a situation has arisen.
No one would ever think "you are an adult now" after you do that. And I'm sure you agree here. I'm not saying she is acting like a responsible person, I'm trying to argue the opposite, she is a rough gem that has to be processed into something beautiful yet. At moments, you can clearly realise that she knows wrong from right and considers the feeling of others even over her own, that needs to be refined now.

What I pointed out is that it would be outragous for Rudeus to act like Norn has nothing to do with this and should not consider her, which is what you are implying when you sidestep her like that.
She can easily be overruled if he decides so, but he should actually work to convince and teach her. (which is what Sylphie is helping with)
Norn is Rudeus' responsibility.

What's the difference between Rudy back when Paul got his second wife and Norn when Rudy got his second wife? Paul and Zenith listened to Rudy back then as well and didn't shun him or silence him.
Is it just the Son vs "just a Sister" relationship?

Since Norn has no father and basically no mother anymore, who takes the role of them now?



It's honestly kind of strange how entitled Norn is acting all the time. Perhaps it's nothing but a psychological defense mechanism when she suffered through the years of hearing how mediocre she is, while her sister and brother were called geniuses. She could grow up to be a petty villainess, but at least she does have a great brother, so maybe that won't happen.

It's not strange at all imho, she is a child.
Her fears and train of thoughts were shown in.. epsiode 16 or 17 I believe (before Rudeus came up to her bed, so it was early in the season) and it shows that her inner thoughts are constantly changing left and right because she seems to be the kind that needs someone to look up to.
That was Paul in the past because she never experienced anything but his loving side that would immediately die for her in a heartbeat if it were necessary.

Now she no longer has anyone and Rudeus needs to be that one. Yet Rudeus does some shady things that can be taken the wrong way.
I mean, lets face it.

Their father was searching for Mom and he came back with a drunk woman
Their father died and he came back with a new woman
She wanted to leave this house and live on her own, because she felt like she was not wanted - Rudeus basically "agreed" (unknowingly) and sent her away. She mistook that as him sending her away (which is of course silly since she herself asked this, but that's the childish thing that tells us she is a child and doesn't consider every (or most) possibilities)

So her affection/respect meter for Rudeus is constantly switching between 0-100%, which must make her really insecure about him.

[Kraco]

What I pointed out is that it would be outragous for Rudeus to act like Norn has nothing to do with this and should not consider her, which is what you are implying when you sidestep her like that.
She can easily be overruled if he decides so, but he should actually work to convince and teach her. (which is what Sylphie is helping with)
Norn is Rudeus' responsibility.

Why wouldn't I sidestep her when Sylphie, in whose defense Norn was supposedly speaking, sidestepped her? Rudeus did accept the duty to look after Norn (and Aisha, but now Aisha's mom is back), but that's still not nearly the same as a mother and father looking after their child. In our world Rudeus wouldn't yet be an adult, though he is in that old society. He's like five years older than Norn. Besides, I'm only disregarding Norn because...


It's not strange at all imho, she is a child.
Her fears and train of thoughts were shown in.. epsiode 16 or 17 I believe (before Rudeus came up to her bed, so it was early in the season) and it shows that her inner thoughts are constantly changing left and right because she seems to be the kind that needs someone to look up to.
That was Paul in the past because she never experienced anything but his loving side that would immediately die for her in a heartbeat if it were necessary.

Now she no longer has anyone and Rudeus needs to be that one. Yet Rudeus does some shady things that can be taken the wrong way.
I mean, lets face it.

Their father was searching for Mom and he came back with a drunk woman
Their father died and he came back with a new woman
She wanted to leave this house and live on her own, because she felt like she was not wanted - Rudeus basically "agreed" (unknowingly) and sent her away. She mistook that as him sending her away (which is of course silly since she herself asked this, but that's the childish thing that tells us she is a child and doesn't consider every (or most) possibilities)

So her affection/respect meter for Rudeus is constantly switching between 0-100%, which must make her really insecure about him.

... in the end, it was all about Norn herself, not Sylphie, Rudeus, or Roxy. Norn obviously adopted her mom's strict Milis principles, so she's quick to judge people on whatever ethical or moral grounds. She's suffering the most from the shattered family situation, not being a reincarnation like Rudeus or a genius like Aisha, so once she got "comfortable" with the current situation, she will object to anything that might change it. It's even worse because she probably imagined soon she would be living with her mom and dad all happily again, yet that hope was crushed for good. So, all she had got left were Rudeus, whom Norn still doesn't 100% trust, and Sylphie, who's easy to get along with due to her blank and amiable personality, not to mention she used to know Sylphie from the village. She felt threatened by Roxy appearing because it doesn't fit her Milis principles (a dear memory of her mom) and because she's not sure what would happen to her own place in the house if another woman appeared there.


What's the difference between Rudy back when Paul got his second wife and Norn when Rudy got his second wife? Paul and Zenith listened to Rudy back then as well and didn't shun him or silence him.
Is it just the Son vs "just a Sister" relationship?

Since Norn has no father and basically no mother anymore, who takes the role of them now?

Rudeus is Paul and Zenith's child. Norn is not Rudeus and Sylphie's child. Isn't that the point I was making from the beginning?

Nobody will take the place of Norn's parents. That's the reality she will need to deal with, even if she's still a child. Maybe one day Zenith will regain her self and Norn will again have a mother, for real. Maybe not. Norn herself knows this, which is why she wanted Roxy out of the house, because she feared her presence would diminish her own role in there. A role she probably can't quite comprehend partially due to distrusting Rudeus and how different she views her own values and Rudeus's values to be.

[KrayZ33]

Why wouldn't I sidestep her when Sylphie, in whose defense Norn was supposedly speaking, sidestepped her?

Because it seems you are doing that before it was actually clear that Sylphie was fine with it, the normal train of thought would've been that Sylphie is NOT fine with it (if Sylphie was a real and normal and believable person) wouldn't it? And Norn came to her defense. It turned out to be unnecessary but that's unexpected, even in their world.
I think it's unfair to say it was about Norn though.
That's like saying it's about "me" when I help a stranger that gets bullied because my moral compass tells me it's the right thing to do. Or if you want to remove the third party, it's like saying it's about "me" when I help my brother or someone else back on what I consider the "right track".
That would just mean that selfless acts don't exist.


She felt threatened by Roxy appearing because it doesn't fit her Milis principles (a dear memory of her mom) and because she's not sure what would happen to her own place in the house if another woman appeared there.

Nah, I don't think that's the case at all.
At least not if you were arguing towards something simple such as "I'll disappear among them and become unimportant"

The first part, yes, if your morals are getting attacked this might cause a defensive reaction because that's basically a confronation to your believe system. What I actually think happened is however that Rudeus doesn't match with what she considers a "good person" and that is bringing up doubts and fears (about her brother being a good guy)


Rudeus is Paul and Zenith's child. Norn is not Rudeus and Sylphie's child. Isn't that the point I was making from the beginning?

Yes but what does that mean?
Why is that important? I don't understand that point.
Father getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about your mother though and how she feels
Brother getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about Sylphie(his wife) though and how she feels.

Don't get me wrong with that example, in both cases it's about the person getting the second wife and what you now think of him, not about the person who got hurt.

In both cases you have no say in it either way, but you are not out of line when you step in and give your thoughts about a family decision.
Are you closer to your dad than you are to your sister? In what way?





Nobody will take the place of Norn's parents. That's the reality she will need to deal with

That's wrong though, because Sylphie and Rudeus are for certain taking their place. We are talking about roles, aren't we?
Not the actual person.
Your older brother could take the place of your father if he needs to.






Skipping through this season again, I think this is one of my favorites scenes this season
https://i.imgur.com/ih8VbWc.png
Overall the whole Labyrinth part was pretty awesome, seeing Elinalise wielding her buckler and sword skills. Paul being a pretty cool and strong fighter and overall the whole "party explores a dungeon" dynamic was really well done. I mentioned that the hydra fight was good, but it's actually the whole thing about the dungeon that was very entertaining.

[DarthEnderX]

Why wouldn't I sidestep her when Sylphie, in whose defense Norn was supposedly speaking, sidestepped her? Rudeus did accept the duty to look after Norn (and Aisha, but now Aisha's mom is back), but that's still not nearly the same as a mother and father looking after their child.Holy shit that's a shitty viewpoint.

"I'm your primary caregiver and guardian, but you don't matter as much as my REAL child."

[Kraco]

Because it seems you are doing that before it was actually clear that Sylphie was fine with it, the normal train of thought would've been that Sylphie is NOT fine with it (if Sylphie was a real and normal and believable person) wouldn't it? And Norn came to her defense. It turned out to be unnecessary but that's unexpected, even in their world.

Who is Norn to define what Sylphie would find okay or not okay? She had no chance to discuss it beforehand with Sylphie. Norn merely assumed Sylphie would never be okay with it, because Norn herself, having adopted the Milis faith from her mother, wouldn't be okay with it. Norn hasn't really got along with Aisha either, which would have made her own family situation more painful. I wouldn't go as far as to say she now would hope that Aisha had never been born, but since it's a binary situation (a person either is born or not), you might as well say her ideal birth family would have nobody but Paul, Zenith, Rudeus, and herself. Maybe Norn is also afraid of the kid Sylphie gives birth to having to face a situation similar to her own experience with Aisha.

It might not be unexpected at all in their world. In the USA it would be perfectly expected for a household to sport a pistol for self-defence reasons. In much of Europe, it would be extraordinary. In Japan, it would be nigh impossible. Why would it be unexpected for a deeply polygamous culture to have the first wife accept a second wife somewhat graciously, aftering having tested and judged the second wife candidate with her own eyes, with plenty of prior information available as well?


I think it's unfair to say it was about Norn though.
That's like saying it's about "me" when I help a stranger that gets bullied because my moral compass tells me it's the right thing to do. Or if you want to remove the third party, it's like saying it's about "me" when I help my brother or someone else back on what I consider the "right track".
That would just mean that selfless acts don't exist.

I'm not saying Norn wouldn't have done it with the best of intentions, but it doesn't change the fact she didn't know what she was doing and based it all 100% on her own beliefs, personal experience, and opinions. So, yes, it was about her.


Nah, I don't think that's the case at all.
At least not if you were arguing towards something simple such as "I'll disappear among them and become unimportant"

Well, sure, that might have been going a bit too far on my part. But it definitely would have felt threatening to her own comfort within the household, which would play a role in her motivations.



Yes but what does that mean?
Why is that important? I don't understand that point.
Father getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about your mother though and how she feels
Brother getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about Sylphie(his wife) though and how she feels.

Of course there's a difference between your biological family (yourself, your parents) and the family your sibling found for themselves. Your sibling's choice in choosing a spouse is none of your business. Of course if your sibling starts dating a drug addict, you would typically do what you can to discourage it, but that's all you can do. Roxy isn't a drug addict, though. She's an extremely important person for the whole family, with long history. I'm sure Norn had heard some of it. Roxy even almost died miserably and alone while trying to save Zenith, purely out of the goodness of her heart.


That's wrong though, because Sylphie and Rudeus are for certain taking their place. We are talking about roles, aren't we?
Not the actual person.
Your older brother could take the place of your father if he needs to.


Seems like we will end up disagreeing here. Rudeus is taking their place in some specific functions, but that's all. Being a dad or a mom is more than just a collection of mundane tasks performed. Rudeus is Norn and Aisha's big brother. That's his role, even if he ends up having to do more than big brothers usually do. Nevertheless, he also has his own family, which is separate from his birth family (where Norn and Aisha belong). "Cruel" as it might be, Rudeus's new family (Sylphie+baby and Roxy) are his first priority. That's how nature works.

[MFauli]

The question is: Where did Norn learn her stuck up attitude?

She was literally raised by Paul, THE "enemy of women" (lol). She must have known that her father wasn't just having one woman. And yet she LOVED her dad. So why be such a cunt towards Rudy for getting a second wife? That's sloppy writing imo.

[shinta|hikari]

Because Norn is an asshat. Aisha's existence negates her "am a baby" excuse.

[KrayZ33]

The question is: Where did Norn learn her stuck up attitude?

She was literally raised by Paul, THE "enemy of women" (lol). She must have known that her father wasn't just having one woman. And yet she LOVED her dad. So why be such a cunt towards Rudy for getting a second wife? That's sloppy writing imo.

I don't know, it feels to me like it's necessary to point out how awful this whole thing already is from "looks" alone.
"Timing" is a thing and having "tact" is important for this.
When someone watches a show these details easily get lost because of pacing, but this is how it happened not just for the sake of fitting this into one episode:

Rudeus went to save their parents. Norn is super happy that someone as great as Rudeus is going and now has high hopes.
Rudeus comes back and tells them that they have a "semi-dead" mother and lost Paul, her father (the most important person simply due to how much time she spend with him compared to any one else in her family)
Norn's hopes were obviously entirely crushed, but she was strong enough - as a child - to realize that nothing could've been done if even Rudeus couldn't help it. She understands that Rudy fought hard.
So after this, instead of waiting a week now, he literally pressed the issue with Roxy about one hour later (that's quite likely at most the time he waited) and said:
"Oh and btw, this is going to be my 2nd wive, I bedded her after I felt down and she really helped me there"
(making it sound bland to point to show how absurd the topic/mood switched)

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.

I don't know who exactly influenced Norn towards the Millis faith, but the city they were having their headquarters and when Rudy showed up for the first time is basically the Vatican of that faith. I can't remember why they were there in the first place (out of all places) but thats where they were for the longest time in her life.

Either way she doesn't seem that devouted to me, considering how fast she dropped this issue (which is probably one of the "main features" of that belief), so it's not like her belief is the reason why she hates the idea.

Norn loved her dad because he literally did everything for her and even though he had a really horrible time, was depressed and drunk etc, he still helped everyone to find their relatives whenever possible and worked day in and day out to the point of depression. Probably never lashed out at Norn either.


edit: and perhaps the most important thing.
She was raised by Paul. How do you expect a child he raised to behave :)


Because Norn is an asshat. Aisha's existence negates her "am a baby" excuse.
edit2: just realized, even when everything was still alright, Aisha woke up early and helped in the house as a daughter of Lilia who trained her to become Rudeus' servant
While Norn basically woke up all sleepy and pampered getting to "enjoy" being the daughter of a rich/powerful family with servants.

[Buffalobiian]

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.

This I disagree with.

You clear this shit up as soon as you can, and you get on your knees while you do so. Rudy did everything 100% right by sorting out Paul's news first, then bring this up once everyone's cleared out.

Paul fucked it up while Rudy didn't, though the circumstances were different in that it sounded like Paul would have left it as a one night stand had Lilia not become pregnant.

[KrayZ33]

This I disagree with.

You clear this shit up as soon as you can, and you get on your knees while you do so. Rudy did everything 100% right by sorting out Paul's news first, then bring this up once everyone's cleared out.

Paul fucked it up while Rudy didn't, though the circumstances were different in that it sounded like Paul would have left it as a one night stand had Lilia not become pregnant.

In front of the kids?
Hm, I still feel like this could've been something he could discuss with Sylphie alone and then with Aisha and Norn later after they calmed down, although Aisha would most likely have found out herself anyway.
Let them mourn their father before you bombard them with even more "problems".


Btw, I just realized that Aisha and Norn had visited Zenith's mother, who also seems to have somewhat of a grudge against Lilia being Pauls second wife. I kinda forgot that scene completely.
Considering its still rather fresh in her mind, I'd wager it happened after the teleport stuff?





Maaaaan, I can't wait for season 3, there is still so much stuff going on in that series and world that I want to know more of.
The simple fact that this time around Rudeus didn't listen to Human God for the first time makes me wonder what will happen the next time they meet.
But there are like a thousand different topics.

Eris.
Greyrat Houses.
What the teleportation incident actually did try to accomplish and why Rudeus appeared in this world differently than Nanahoshi.
And there is also world-lore that I'd love to hear more about. like "the six sided world" they live in.
I actually remember seeing - what are they even called... some kind of apparatus that shows the "solar system" with the "cube/six sided world" at its center - during the first half of season 2.

The Laplace war (and Laplace itself, who seems to be on the move again according to dragon boy)

This show has been so character focused so far, it's really cool that all the topics still remain mysterious and open and it still works as a story plot point because "other stuff is just more imporatnt right now"

Human-God says he didn't reincarnate Rudeus and mentioned that this is kinda the dragon-gods forte.
So who got Rudeus/MC into this and why isn't he showing up.

Stuff like that.

[Kraco]

So after this, instead of waiting a week now, he literally pressed the issue with Roxy about one hour later (that's quite likely at most the time he waited) and said:
"Oh and btw, this is going to be my 2nd wive, I bedded her after I felt down and she really helped me there"
(making it sound bland to point to show how absurd the topic/mood switched)

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.


In front of the kids?
Hm, I still feel like this could've been something he could discuss with Sylphie alone and then with Aisha and Norn later after they calmed down, although Aisha would most likely have found out herself anyway.
Let them mourn their father before you bombard them with even more "problems".

Norn and Aisha were just the peanut gallery there. Rudeus was talking to Sylphie, asking for her permission. That obviously could not wait. Rudeus brought Roxy with her, with certain implications, which would be far worse if he said nothing for months (he would have been hiding the immoral act for months). Worse for both Sylphie and Roxy. Norn and Aisha didn't really count for much in this concrete issue. It's anyone's guess why they were there. Perhaps because Rudeus didn't think it through? He's no wise old man. It could be he simply thought it would allow him to get them informed as well, without needing to do the declaration for a second time. Somehow Norn then stole the center stage. I doubt Rudeus wanted to make Roxy stand through it, when Norn attacked her like a public prosecutor.


Either way she doesn't seem that devouted to me, considering how fast she dropped this issue (which is probably one of the "main features" of that belief), so it's not like her belief is the reason why she hates the idea.

She dropped it because Sylphie accepted it. What else could she have done at that point? Her religious beliefs weren't the only reason. Other plausible reasons have been mentioned, such as the suffering Paul's infidelity caused her back in the Millis capital. But do the other reasons matter either when Sylphie accepted it?


Maaaaan, I can't wait for season 3, there is still so much stuff going on in that series and world that I want to know more of.
The simple fact that this time around Rudeus didn't listen to Human god for the first time makes me wonder what will happen the next time they meet.

Hitogami carries the title of a god, so I doubt he holds a personal grudge. He just ought to try harder to convince Rudeus the next time. In the end, we don't even know what Hitogami wants. All this stuff could be of zero consequence for him. His real goal might be decades in the future, and it doesn't matter how Rudeus gets there, just that he is there in a shape suitable for Hitogami.

[KrayZ33]

Norn and Aisha were just the peanut gallery there. Rudeus was talking to Sylphie, asking for her permission. That obviously could not wait. Rudeus brought Roxy with her, with certain implications, which would be far worse if he said nothing for months (he would have been hiding the immoral act for months). Worse for both Sylphie and Roxy. Norn and Aisha didn't really count for much in this concrete issue. It's anyone's guess why they were there. Perhaps because Rudeus didn't think it through? He's no wise old man. It could be he simply thought it would allow him to get them informed as well, without needing to do the declaration for a second time. Somehow Norn then stole the center stage. I doubt Rudeus wanted to make Roxy stand through it, when Norn attacked her like a public prosecutor.


I don't think it's by chance that Lilia left with Zenith but the 2 kids remained instead of helping both their mothers with whatever they are doing right after they "finally got them back".




She dropped it because Sylphie accepted it. What else could she have done at that point? Her religious beliefs weren't
Nothing, but she could still argue that its an eternal sin and constantly complain about it, which is what she would've done if she is a devout follower that priotises piety over other things.
Which is what I'm saying, she isn't.




Hitogami carries the title of a god, so I doubt he holds a personal grudge. He just ought to try harder to convince Rudeus the next time. In the end, we don't even know what Hitogami wants. All this stuff could be of zero consequence for him. His real goal might be decades in the future, and it doesn't matter how Rudeus gets there, just that he is there in a shape suitable for Hitogami.

Yeah, but he is also the reason why Rudeus got the Demon Eye. "Just because" (perhaps he is priming him to take over his body? Considering all the funny features he has, and how powerless he seems to be right now
And he only shows up when *he* wants "something" it seems?

losely quoted:

Human God: Yo, it's been a year!
Rudeus: "And here I hoped I had seen the last of you"
Human God: Well, well my advice last time got you into really hot water. I figured showing up made things a bit awkward (yeaaaaaah... riiiiight... a god getting embarassed about that?)
He then proceeds to explain to him how he could've used the situation instead - which was his plan
But in the end he was happy that Rudeus got even further ahead, probably way beyond his own imagination.
"Only the result matters"

That talk happened when they were trying to find money for Ruijerd to get on that ship.
And that time, the result probably overlapped with his expectation, will this time be the same?

It seems to me he only shows up as soon as something is about to happen that he doesn't want to happen.

Remember when he stopped Rudeus and suggested not searching for his mother?
Isn't it weird that he only shows up again when Rudeus was about to reconsider and go anyway (after he received that letter)?

[Buffalobiian]

In front of the kids?

That seemed to be a deliberate action. Lilia and Zenith left the room.

I got the feeling that Rudy just wanted the family members to hear everything in one go. Lilia already knew and with her status as 2nd wife there's no way she'd go against the decision.

Was it wise or appropriate to do so all together instead of with just the wives? I'm not sure. For one, with just the wives it'd seem a bit like a 2v1 against Sylphie. Norn talking out there does make you happy that someone's on your side - whether you agree with their "harsh" stance or not.

From a narrative aspect, it was more interesting for sure.

[Kraco]

Nothing, but she could still argue that its an eternal sin and constantly complain about it, which is what she would've done if she is a devout follower that priotises piety over other things.
Which is what I'm saying, she isn't.

I don't believe she dropped it for good, just like that. She just stopped arguing against it during that meeting, after seeing Sylphie accept it and Roxy in tears. For example she really tried to take it out on Rudeus during the sword practice, so she definitely isn't finished with punishing him or complaining, if given a chance. That being said, I have no doubt Roxy will win her over soon enough. She's an experience magic tutor, for example, and Norn could use all help she could get in that. Not to mention Roxy wouldn't try to teach her "genius arts" like the Silent Fitts or Rudeus. The traditional way of doing magic probably suits Norn better.


For one, with just the wives it'd seem a bit like a 2v1 against Sylphie. Norn talking out there does make you happy that someone's on your side - whether you agree with their "harsh" stance or not.

It was all up to Sylphie to say No or Yes. Having the kids there would have hardly relieved Sylphie from any guilt she might have felt if she had said No. That's what it was all about, ultimately, considering it was Roxy, not just any random woman. She can live with Roxy there to share Rudeus with, but could she have lived with the aftereffects if Roxy had been sent away? It wasn't an emotionally fair decision-making process in that sense. Norn and Aisha didn't really change anything.

[DarthEnderX]

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason."This is my new "maid"." *wink*

[MFauli]

Keeping Roxy in the house WITHOUT telling Slyphie what's the deal would have been THE worst way to go about it, LOL.

Once Rudy tells her, she'd have to assume that either he already wanted to marry Roxy, but kept it secret from her yet let her in their house as his secret wife OR that Rudy and Rox fell in love with each other WHILE Roxy was staying there. Not sure which one's worse.

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the "Don't tell her till after the baby" plan would require Roxy to stay in the house. There's no reason she couldn't just get a place in the city.

[Buffalobiian]

Keeping it all a secret and also keeping Roxy out of the house makes it seem like some sort of shameful secret, which it shouldn't be if you're going to marry her because you love her. It also gives off a vibe that 1st wife gets preferential treatment/resources etc. If you're to embrace polygamy, this feels wrong.

[Kraco]

Trying to postpone it practically at all would be insulting toward both Sylphie and Roxy. Perhaps if they had arranged some kind of formal funeral service for Paul immediately, both the women would have considered it appropriate to wait that much, but beyond that, it would be ridiculous and not in anyone's interests. Which is exactly why Rudeus handled it as soon as he had talked about the events concerning Zenith and Paul.

[KrayZ33]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the "Don't tell her till after the baby" plan would require Roxy to stay in the house. There's no reason she couldn't just get a place in the city.

There is no "don't tell "HER" till after the X plan."
That wasn't suggested by me either.

I'm talking about Norn and Aisha not having to hear it right after they got the message of (at least one of) their parents dying.


If you tell me that you'd suggest announcing your wedding 60 minutes after your father died you people are quite nuts, ngl ;).



So you send Aisha and Norn with Lilia to take care of their mother, you then have a serious talk with Sylphie that is a lot less emotional than with 2 kids around that still mourn their father.
Sylphie is an adult, can act "more rational", and doesn't mourn Paul like the others do (at least not in intensity)

So after they had the talk, you can declare to the kids that Roxy's gonna stay in the house for *at least* a while or perhaps permanently, make clear that she is a god friend, his tutor and someone you respect and hold dear, just like Sylphie, and that she is part ofthe reason why "I" was able to find "our" mother.
And develop things from there.

He would even be able to eventually properly explain to the *kids* that he "cheated" on Sylphie after the mellowed out a bit and overcame their mourning period.
Since you are focusing on that, you will also know what to say to them to make the "blow" (for Norn) not as hard, because you don't have to focus on Sylphie anymore.
Even better, if she is really on ship with this, she can actually support and help with the convincing.

[MFauli]

Keeping it all a secret and also keeping Roxy out of the house makes it seem like some sort of shameful secret, which it shouldn't be if you're going to marry her because you love her. It also gives off a vibe that 1st wife gets preferential treatment/resources etc. If you're to embrace polygamy, this feels wrong.

It IS a shameful secret in that situation LOL.