The Season that killed Isekai - Can the genre return to Glory?

[MFauli]

I'll make this quick: This season has finale hit rock bottom trash tier with it's new isekai- and almost isekai-shows. If you truly think these anime are 'great', ignore this thread, It's not for you then.

I watched:

- Maou Retry
- Arifurete
- Cheat Magician
- That 'I'm now your dad' anime (not technically isekai, but come on)
- stuff I'm forgetting
- oh, milf Isekai most likely will be trash, too, outside of BIG TITTY MILF :/

It's all trash and you know it. I must admit that I'm severely sick in the head, because despite all that, I'm wtill watching them. Yeah, there's something nice about Maou slapping a 16 yo holy maid's butt - but the rest is such cheap trash!

My question to all of us:
Do you think the isekai genre will be able to produce meaningful, quality entries in the future again or is it too far gone and we're trapped in shitty light novel adaptations until the genre dies commercially?

REZero, Tanya, KonoSuba, SAO (at least the beginning), Log Horizon, the first season of Overlord, Hai to Gensou no Grimgar, even GATE to some point, were so much better than the trash we get now. But there's no light at the end of the dark tunnel we're currently in, or is there?

I feel like there's still SO MUCH meaningful scenarios you could do with isekais, especially if studios finally choose to go darker routes instead of all those shallow moe scenarios. But I'm not sure we'll reach that point ...

[David75]

Slime OAD2, not bound by the main arc story, was pretty funny :D

[shinta|hikari]

SAO and Log Horizon are not isekai.

This and the last few seasons' isekai entries are pretty shit. I stopped watching them a while back after giving a one episode check.

The more recent good isekai stories have not been adapted yet, such as Annals of Veight and Defeating the Demon Lord is a Cinch (if you've got a ringer). Cooking with Wild Game is great if you like serious food/cooking and tanned women.

[Munsu]

I'll add So I'm a Spider, So What?... but I also see it as one that'll be difficult to adapt, and I also fear how they'll animate the monsters. There's a lot of grinding, so it depends if you're into that or not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwk3Q8QpRWg

And as Arifureta shows, how it's adapted matters.

Many isekai stories I've seen so far are written by people that are more interested in their fetishes than anything else.

[MFauli]

Many isekai stories I've seen so far are written by people that are more interested in their fetishes than anything else.

Yeah, that's a big problem. These author just think about isekai and adding ONE "special" detail - instead of actually using the fascinating strength of the concept: 'WHAT IF a normal guy stumbled into another world?"

I mean, that's the great premise, right? But instead of exploring the SEVERE, and SERIOUS consequences (most of us would be terrified by being teleported to an unknown land. Isekai anime, instead, completely ignores that shock and the hero feels insta-comfortable more or less), it's all about shallow bs.

Ffs, why haven't we seen any scifi-isekai yet? Where are the time travel-isekais? And what about some good old fashioned body/mind swap isekai exploring classism?

So much potential, but it's all sacrificed for ... loli moe bs. And now milf bs, too. Sigh

[shinta|hikari]

Loli moe is important, but they should really add more things to make a good story. The ones Munsu and I mentioned are far better in that regard, at least compared to the shit this season and in recent memory. No harems, no fanservice, good world building and unusual characters, and overall different from most isekai.

[Ryllharu]

You say this is peak isekai, and they haven't even really tapped the shoujo isekai series. They even have their own in-subgrene trope: villainess of a dating sim! Like the demon lord trope of the shonen/seinen kind.

[MFauli]

You say this is peak isekai, and they haven't even really tapped the shoujo isekai series. They even have their own in-subgrene trope: villainess of a dating sim! Like the demon lord trope of the shonen/seinen kind.

B-but the goal is to have *less* trash. 🙈

[Ryllharu]

Several of the shoujo "Oh no I'm the villainess!" isekais are actually very highly rated.

Don't hate the genre, hate the poorly written trash that gets picked up for an anime because their publisher wants to promote the trash novels. This same cycle happened to Magic-Meets-Science series, and magical harem series, and space series, and even high school romance series. Isekai persists because they're easy to write when they're shitty.

Relatable protagonist for the readers to connect with or insert themselves. Being transported to a new world, exposition is required so the author doesn't have to show anything when they can simply explain it all, secret powers or rule breaking powers remove the need to write intelligent conflict. And so on.

The good series either don't do that.

UchiMusume is also definitely NOT an isekai. By saying that, you're conflating all light fantasy with isekai.

@shinta: SAO isn't isekai, but Log Horizon 100% is one, unless it changes genres more than halfway through its current run.

[neflight86]

Isekai is the other side of the "god among us" power fantasy genre that also spews out battle high school shows in my mind. Its lowest common denominator dreck that sells because younger audiences less experienced with story telling find it compelling, and some Otaku have retrofitted the tropes into a twisted game and enjoy splitting the minutiae in 'comic book guy' style internet forums (ironically, of course).

Easy to make plus easy to sell to people with disposable income = some bad anime. It doesn't always have to be bad, though. It is possible for a production team to be motivated, well staffed and managed to create something better, like Slime a couple seasons back. Its just not the norm, and supposedly, the industry doesn't incentivize creativity because blu-ray sales turn out to be more or less random.

Isekai has been so derivative for so long that I can't remember back when it was an interesting concept.

[Munsu]

Up until the recent volumes, I was quite high on Arifureta, mainly because it had a cool asshole as an MC and it had some dark arcs to go with with it, so that the first introduction to that series has been poorly handled, it's a shame. But it goes more the harem route as it goes on, so I've had more trouble with it as of late, but it had potential to be a cool series to animate.

There's still a chance that it can get into it, but I just feel that they're going to rush through the aspects that I liked and jumping into the story the way they did, they already cut much of what made the introduction into this world somewhat interesting.

The others I've been reading are, aside from the ones mentioned by shinta:

Faraway Paladin - Just the first volume and a half for now, but I think this could be a very good series to animate.

The Magic in this Other World is Too Far Behind! - Has some harem aspects to it, but they haven't overdone it so far. MC is strong, but hides his strength and refuses to participate in the war. It has enough political drama behind it to keep it interesting, and battles could be cool to animate, demons can get quite violent as well. But if they emphasize the silly portions, then there's nothing to see here.

Defeating the Demon Lord's a Cinch (If You've Got a Ringer) - Already mentioned, but I want to emphasize how much I've liked what I've ready from it so far, very interesting MC.

Skeleton Knight in Another World - This one could potentially be very good if animated, it has quite a bit of focus on political drama and can get violent, no harem to speak of right now, but I'm smelling that may change.

Reincarnated as a Sword - Another series in the same idea of Slime and Spider with reincarnating as a weird monster/object. What I like about this one is that there's zero chance for a harem, and we have a 12-year old badass slave that wields our reincarnated Sword and it's been just pleasant and charming with some decent fights to go with it.

So that's a few we can keep an eye out for to see if they get animated and how they're handled, not necessarily high literature, far from it, but all could be good to see. But I honestly don't trust the studios to properly animate them, and they'll all certainly suffer from poorly animated monsters, which in turn will make them lame.

[MFauli]

Sorry, but all of these sound like more trash :/

Why can't there be isekai anime with the quality and seriousness of Lodoss War, Monster or Knights of Shidonia?

I'm so sick of these shallow moe blob anime :/

[Munsu]

Sorry, but all of these sound like more trash :/

Why can't there be isekai anime with the quality and seriousness of Lodoss War, Monster or Knights of Shidonia?

I'm so sick of these shallow moe blob anime :/

And yet you put ReZero, Konosuba, Sao, etc. as your examples of series that were up to your standards... but yeah, these are all light novel adaptations, it's what we have.

[shinta|hikari]

Literally all Mfauli's examples are adapted from light novels.

[DarthEnderX]

Why can't there be isekai anime with the quality and seriousness of Lodoss War, Monster or Knights of Shidonia?
Or better yet, why can't we just have fucking fantasy anime where the protagonist isn't from fucking modern Japan?

Do you have so little faith the the viewer, anime industry, that you can't write a story that doesn't literally have the viewer as the main character?

[Ryllharu]

Do you have so little faith the the viewer, anime industry, that you can't write a story that doesn't literally have the viewer as the main character?
That's the lazy shitty writing part I wrote about early.

Isekai gives the author an excuse to use exposition everywhere instead of actual proper worldbuilding.

[MFauli]

Literally all Mfauli's examples are adapted from light novels.

I never said light novels are per se shit. Just the one's he mentioned sound like the exact same trash.

There's different tiers of what I'd consider good isekai:

Tier #1: Does it even exist? It'd be a story with the quality of Lodoss War, but as an isekai. The only actual show I'd put in here is, surprisingly, an US-cartoon, 'Dungeons and Dragons'. Super old series, but really captured the 'other world' feeling combined with serious, tangible danger.

https://youtu.be/3JjhQ1Oi_3k

Tier #2: ReZero, Log Horizon, SAO. Produced with high quality presentation. Have a strong element of interest that makes for an exciting story. Still suffers from moe elements and stereotypes.

Tier #3: Hai to Gensou no Grimgar, Tanya the Evil. Interesting, even hype at times, but you often think 'this could be so much better' and 'wtf that's so silly'.

Tier #4: Tate no Yuusha, Kenja no Mago. Shows glimpses of goodness, but can't escape the creeping feeling of genericness. Lacks any ambitious world building, non-sensical shallow story, character tropes en mass.

Tier #5: Trash. Here's a derivative isekai that's already been used in other anime, filled with harem girls and an edgy protagonist. Cheap production values, no coherent world building, relies on manufactured, forced bursts of 'pls be excited!' inbetween lots of 'cute/hot girls acting out their tropes'.

I'd like to see more of #2 or even #1, but nowadays we're not even getting #3 :(

[Death BOO Z]

not that much of an isekai expert, but making good stories would probably require straying away from the power fantasy elements and focusing on the feeling of being alone in a new situation that everyone takes as granted.

and i can't think of a better way to alienate the (generally) weebo viewing audience than saying 'you, the hero, are less equipped than anyone else to deal with the adventure of being an adult, and you're clueless about how people act and behave in real world'.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - Most of the ones Munsu mentioned probably belong to tier 3. The ones I mentioned beforehand and Munsu also likes is tier 2. No harem, no fanservice.

The main issue is isekai stories will always lack the aspect of tangible danger because they are intentionally power fantasies. The only exception to this is Grimgar, where deaths happen all the time (yes, Manato isn't an exception).

[MFauli]

I truly don't get the power fantasy-necessity though. Actually I dislike that part about many isekai. When you're thrown in an unknown world, you naturally are weak, helpless and desperate. Slowly pulling yourself out of that situation is part of the appeal.

That's what non-isekai fantasy-anime actually do. See Berserk, Lodoss, and actually most anime. Guck, most STORIES are like that. It's just isekai that likes to completely ignore it. Well, not completely, it's what made ReZero interesting - although you could say they downplayed the act of dying over the course of the show.

Anyway, I for one don't watch anime or play games for a power fantasy. I play and warch for a 'what if' fantasy. Seems like the west/hollywood is better at that. Stuff like Harry Potter or Narnia do a good job at introducing another world where the heroes start out helpless, but then slowly find their place. That's what an isekai should be like. Imo.

[shinta|hikari]

People are already too helpless IRL, so I guess many want an out. Power fantasies give them that.

I personally prefer dark struggles like you, but the market is what it is. I for one have no idea how Game of Thrones got so popular. It's definitely not what a typical viewer would like, which is probably why they raged at the ending despite it being similar levels of dark and grim as the rest of the show.

[Munsu]

That's what an isekai should be like. Imo.

There's no "should be like", that's why you always set yourself up to fail.

Nothing wrong with wanting more grimdark like stories, most if not all of us would like that, but there's no reason to pigeonhole the isekai market to it.

Just like any sub-genre, it should have different flavors, just that the flavor you want is lacking.

[MFauli]

There's no "should be like", that's why you always set yourself up to fail.

Nothing wrong with wanting more grimdark like stories, most if not all of us would like that, but there's no reason to pigeonhole the isekai market to it.

Just like any sub-genre, it should have different flavors, just that the flavor you want is lacking.


Yeah, I'm not saying EVERYTHING needs to be like that
But as you say, there's a severe lack of 'grimdark' variants.

[DarthEnderX]

I did really like Drifters because the world travelers were badass historical figures instead of generic Japanese salarymen/NEETs.

[Ryllharu]

I feel like some of you are missing the forest for the trees. Don't focus on the shitty ones and why they're terrible. Focus on the good ones and understand why they're good. Isekai, even the power fantasy ones, can be done right. Even brilliantly. Self-awareness is kind of key.

Look at KonoSuba. You have four heroes, three of which are incredibly powerful, and a third fourth who is comparatively useless but brilliantly talented. But they're all terrible heroes. Arch-priest who is a literal goddess (and she's so OP she actually causes more problems than she solves), incredibly strong caster (who power leveled an ability that has limited use and she's incapable of using strategically), an incredibly talented tank (who will always, always pulls too much aggro because of her personality and is completely useless otherwise), and a weakling who is smart, but all his abilities suck.
They even have supporting characters who show how much better they are supposed to be.

Or look at Isekai Seikishi Monogatari. Kenshi is so absurdly overpowered and excessively talented, that he quickly upsets the entire political dynamic of the world. And there was even an implied twist that that was entirely the intended outcome of how Kenshi ended up in another world in the first place. It also has very thorough and detailed worldbuilding that almost never relies on exposition. Sound familiar? That's why Tensura (the slime series), also works.
Constrast this to the bland power-fantasy series, where the protagonist has some secret edge that gives them an advantage in combat or whatever, when the story requires it, but the effect is still limited only to the immediate interactions that the protagonist has, and never spirals outward.

The problem is isekai series are so easy to write that they draw in crap writers who don't play with the subgenre's tropes at all. And that results in boring, generic, bland-as-hell shit.

[MFauli]

I'm not looking at Konosuba because It's comedy. Comedy has different rules.

That's btw another problem of the entire anime industry, but isekai in particular: the lack of quality SERIOUS stories. Even the ones that attempt to tell a serious story are sabotaged by low production values/cheap animation.

[Kraco]

That's btw another problem of the entire anime industry, but isekai in particular: the lack of quality SERIOUS stories. Even the ones that attempt to tell a serious story are sabotaged by low production values/cheap animation.

I don't know how you can say that. I learned from the Japanese isekai light novel authors that the Japanese are the most gifted, the strongest, the most cultured, the most refined, the most innovative people in the universe. They couldn't possibly choose the wrong series to animate.

[Ryllharu]

I'm not looking at Konosuba because It's comedy. Comedy has different rules.
And now you're back to your usual asinine self.

"The rules are different because if I don't change them I don't have an argument."

Let's prove you wrong twice in a single post then. Deliberately leaving out the intentional comedy series, because you said they don't count:


Magic Knight Rayearth - Shoujo hallmark isekai. Medium production values. 1994-1995. Shoujo classic.
Fushigi Yuugi - Dramatic isekai shoujo series. Medium production values. 1995-1996. Considered a cult classic.
El-Hazard: The Magnificent World - Serious isekai series. Medium-high production values. 1995-1996. Well received.
Escaflowne: Serious parallel world (now called isekai) series. High production value. 1996. Critically acclaimed.
Now and Then, Here and There: Serious, grimdark shit you're always begging for. Medium production value. 1999-2000. Critically acclaimed.
Digimon Adventure - Standard shonen adventure isekai. Medium-high production values. 1999-2000. Critically acclaimed and now an anime classic.
Inuyasha - Parallel word drama shonen/shoujo isekai. Medium/High production values. 2000-2004. Cult classic or reviled depending on the audience.
.hack//Sign - Bleak "I'm trapped in a game!" series. High production values. 2002. Cult classic.
12 Kingdoms - Serious, angsty josei isekai series. Medium production values. 2002-2003. Critically acclaimed.
Mahou Shoujo Tai Arusu - Serious mahou shoujo isekai. Medium production values. 2004-2005. Critically acclaimed.
Log Horizon - Serious realistic "We're trapped in a game!" isekai. Medium production values. 2013-2014. Very well received.
GATE - Realistic/dramatic blatant propagandist isekai. Medium-high production values. 2015. Generally well received.
Drifters - Serious grimdark isekai series. Medium-to-high production values. 2016. Very well received.
Overlord - Serious deliberately dark isekai series. High-declining-to-trash production values. 2015, 2017-2018. Mixed reception (novels still highly praised).
Grimgar - Gritty realism isekai. Above average production values. 2016. Very well received.
Tensura (Slime series) - Comedy/Serious isekai. Medium production values. 2018-2019. Very well received.
Shield Hero - Serious grimdark isekai. High production values. 2019. Split reception due to plot elements in contrast to Western cultural sensitivities.


Not only has the genre shifted to more of exactly what you claim you want (and away from the female audience it started and dominated with), the overall reception of those series has not diminished in the slightest. You're getting more of them, with better budgets, and the genre has shifted to the tone you like.

I left out the comedies (edit: Fun Fact. There's not that many.). They're the ones that are either extremely highly rated, or extremely low rated. Your "serious" series are consistently well rated.

[MFauli]

If you count Tate no Yuusha as a quality isekai, I don't know what to say. It was neither serious nor 'grimdark'.

And I've seen pretty much all of your mentioned anime, so you're agreeing with me that things have ggotten worse? Good to know.

(and I'm not making up rules, I'm just telling you my opinion. Comedy is just too different to be included with the rest.)

[Ryllharu]

I'm not rating any of those in the list personally. They're review ratings from anime sites. 7/10 or above is "well received."

I also have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I agreed with your bullshit limited-scope claim. The stats show the opposite. If you read the last two paragraphs, that is.

[MFauli]

I'm not rating any of those in the list personally. They're review ratings from anime sites. 7/10 or above is "well received."
.

Wow ... 🤦*♀️

[Ryllharu]

Yes. Anime database sites. Tate no Yuusha doesn't meet your criteria for quality (which bizarrely enough always seem to move each time you make an easily-disproved generalization). Apparently, at least 300 people disagree with you and thought it was good (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=votes&aid=13246). None of which are me, because I never finished it and therefore didn't bother rating it.

[Ryllharu]

Can confirm, shoujo isekai is definitively better than the male targeted series.

Both of these are translated novels and each have a manga adaptation.

Koushaku Reijou no Tashinami (Common Sense of a Duke's Daughter) is incredible. All the right parts of an economics lesson, some fief building, and mixed with the aftermath of a dating sim. Basically, what happens to the villain of a dating sim when she barely avoids exile or being sent to a convent? Features Truck-kun sending a tax assessor into that other body right at the moment of her dating sim defeat. Good drama, great characters, and a healthy dose of reality injected into an early Victorian era otome game setting. One of the best high society mothers in fiction that I can remember too (she even has her own spinoff prequel novel).

Otome Game no Hametsu Flag shika nai Akuyaku Reijou ni Tensei shite shimatta aka Bakarina (and this one already has an anime in the works (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=14449)): Good comedy/drama about another blessed soul sent by Truck-kun into a otome game villainess, but once she hits her head as a child, all of her past life's memories come back. She is determined to avoid her nearly guaranteed death or exile. Silly premise, dense as osmium main character, but it is endearing and there's some stellar plot twists in there that change it substantially as it progresses.