Rape and morality in popular media [Archive]

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-10-2018, 05:15 AM

Lol, you could have commented on any of the episodes before. I had to search this thread in depths of gotwoot!I didn't actually have anything to comment about. I just watched the episode, noticed what happened, and then when I came here to do my usual rounds, I noticed the SAO thread had been bumped for the first time of the season and I immediately thought, "Fucking MFauli has shit to say about that rape scene, I just know it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NfOpgcWQRs&feature=youtu.be&t=43)"

And fuck no, disagree. Just ask yourself: would you rather be raped or have your arms cut off? Easy decision.So basically, your saying that the executioner that executes a mass murder is a more evil person than someone that kicks babies. Because killing is worse than kicking?

I get what you're saying, I'd personally rather be raped than murdered. But intent and deservedness counts.

Kirito is not evil for attempting to stop an assault, then maiming the assailant in self-defense when the assailant tries to kill him.

The guys raping someone out of pure spite are absolutely being evil.

it's almost like you'd enjoy raping/being raped.Almost...

shinta|hikari

Tue, 12-11-2018, 08:45 AM

I actually don't understand why Mfauli is complaining. He wants more rape in media, and when he gets it, he doesn't like it because it is portrayed as evil. I'm guessing he wants a justified rape scene.

MFauli

Sun, 12-16-2018, 10:25 PM

@shinta:

Wasn't the topic, but since you start it: Yes, I'd like to see a different portrayal of rape in anime. It's always done in a way that makes the perpetrator look like a complete maniac, drawing weird grimasses, squeaky voice, and mostly poor decision making that ultimately result in his downfall.

When we have murder stories, the perpetrators often are successful and get away with it (until the very end when they're punished after all). But rapists? Always dumb, instantly punished, and not even being 'successful'. What I want is nuance and variety.

One of my actual biggest wishes for a complex, mature story is that a former rapist joins the heroes' party, fighting for the good himself. Anime is full of mass murderers that get easily accepted by the good guys after they make the switch - let's do the same for a rapist. It's a much lesser crime, but it also is so unprecedented that it'd make for a really fresh, interesting setup.

And now I'll be waiting for Kray to misinterpret the above into ''MFauli likes rapw" -_-

@MFauli: What's worse than murder?

Nothing?

shinta|hikari

Sun, 12-16-2018, 11:14 PM

Buffalobiian

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:41 AM

KrayZ33

Mon, 12-17-2018, 01:12 AM

One of my actual biggest wishes for a complex, mature story is that a former rapist joins the heroes' party, fighting for the good himself.

But who, other than you, wants to see that?
A rapist is someone nearly no one can get behind, except for some crazed individuals.

You can kill a person on accident, on impulse, or even out of revenge, yet I still have to see a true maniacal mass murderer join a hero. Warriors are not murderers, it's their "job".

The process of rape lasts for several minutes.. it's not a single action. It's not like you can say "the feelings got the better of me at this moment". There is hardly any reason to include a rapist in any story whatsoever as the "good guy", because he certainly is not a good guy... no matter how "sorry" he is.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 12-17-2018, 11:43 AM

To be fair, I've read a few VNs where a rapist eventually becomes a good guy, and is the protagonist (i.e. Akatsuki no Goei).

There's also a ton of rape scenes in shoujo mangas where the male love interests basically molest and then proceed to rape the protagonist, who repeatedly says no and fights back to no avail, but they eventually fall in love and become a couple, so it's all good. Maybe this is more up your alley, Mfauli, and yes, this is mainstream stuff (non-hentai), just not too popular in the west because of SJWs (Snowflake Judgmental Westerners).

MFauli

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:30 PM

Unending or prolonged torture is definitely worse than murder. If you don't agree, please test it.

Why the focus on rape? Isn't it just one of innumerable "taboo" plot devices in stories, a lot of which don't get that much screen time (cannibalism, incest, pedophilia, etc)?

All of those other taboos actually happen on the regular and without anyone being shocked. Incest is super common. Lolicon themes are, too. And cannibalism, well, we all just saw Slime. It's only rape that causes an outrage, which I find endlessly hypocritical.

Also regarding torture: I'd agree that at some point torture becomes worse than death. See the shit that was done to the heroes of Ajin and Tokyo Ghoul. But 'forced sex' definitely is far from that.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:37 PM

Like I said, there's a lot of mainstream content from Japan, China, and Korea that feature rape and sexual assault where the perpetrator is either absolved or even rewarded. They just don't get proliferated in the west.

People don't get outraged over it either. The target audience certainly enjoy it.

MFauli

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:38 PM

But who, other than you, wants to see that?
A rapist is someone nearly no one can get behind, except for some crazed individuals.

You can kill a person on accident, on impulse, or even out of revenge, yet I still have to see a true maniacal mass murderer join a hero. Warriors are not murderers, it's their "job".

The process of rape lasts for several minutes.. it's not a single action. It's not like you can say "the feelings got the better of me at this moment". There is hardly any reason to include a rapist in any story whatsoever as the "good guy", because he certainly is not a good guy... no matter how "sorry" he is.

Go no further than Dragon Ball. Vegeta murdered countless innocent people. But at some point he decides to fight Freezer and all is forgiven? Fuck this bs!

Happens in most shounen anime.

But rape? That's REALLY evil and unforgivable :/ sigh

Btw you absolutely can say 'feelings got the better of me'. Most rape isn't premeditated, it happens spontaneously. Even the most heinous kind of rape shouldn't cause a character to be permanent evil. I'm no longer writing on the story, so I can tell you ablut what I had in mind: Carlyle, a 43 yo guy, convicted rapist, out of prison, raped a girl 15 years ago out of sheer lust. Has come to terms with it, fully realizes he did something very wrong. Why should he not be able to go on as a good person? Shitting on someone like that is just irrational revenge bs.

But that's not happening. Meanwhile, mass murderers get to turn around at any given point and be called hero. :/

Interesting. From whose perspective are you seeing this from?

Not sure what you mean, but whatever:

From the perspective of someone who cares about moral justice , where rape shouldn't be punished worse than murder.
And also empathically from the perspective of a fictional rapist who wants to redeem himself and do good ... but isn't given the chance.

I find that more interesting than the usual shit.

Like I said, there's a lot of mainstream content from Japan, China, and Korea that feature rape and sexual assault where the perpetrator is either absolved or even rewarded. They just don't get proliferated in the west.

People don't get outraged over it either. The target audience certainly enjoy it.

Can you recommend a good manga? Ideally where the hero is a rapist or that's story focuses on that?

shinta|hikari

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:48 PM

I don't really read rape stories so I can't recommend any, but there is a rape tag in mangaupdates and novelupdates. A lot of wuxia has men raping women who then fall in love with them.

Most shoujo manga stories feature a female protagonist, who are also the victims of the rape, but they eventually like it. That doesn't fit what you want though.

The idea I was trying to present is that rape isn't as censored or rare as you think, and there are a lot of stories where rapists are redeemed or even praised (because the girl deserved it kind of thing).

KrayZ33

Mon, 12-17-2018, 12:50 PM

Go no further than Dragon Ball. Vegeta murdered countless innocent people. But at some point he decides to fight Freezer and all is forgiven? Fuck this bs!

So it would've been better if Vegeta rapes everyone and is forgiven just because he fought Freezer?

How does that example help your cause, the only thing it shows is how poorly written Dragonball is.
Nothing "mature" about it at all whether it's rape or murder.

I don't really read rape stories so I can't recommend any, but there is a rape tag in mangaupdates and novelupdates. A lot of wuxia has men raping women who then fall in love with them.

Most shoujo manga stories feature a female protagonist, who are also the victims of the rape, but they eventually like it. That doesn't fit what you want though.

The idea I was trying to present is that rape isn't as censored or rare as you think, and there are a lot of stories where rapists are redeemed or even praised (because the girl deserved it kind of thing).

heh, sounds exactly like the nonsense I had in mind.
Glorifying rape as a force of good rather than evil. Japan/Asian countries are scary.

MFauli

Mon, 12-17-2018, 02:21 PM

@shinta:

Yeah, looking myself is what I didn't want to, because if I search for rape tags, I'm bound to find a bunch of 'rape is great' stories. I know that rape is not rare in specific corners of fiction, but we were talking about popular media like anime, hollywood or such, and it's both rare and rapists are never forgiven. Sure, if I go to nhentai.net I'll find 30k rape doujins, but I'm not looking for a story that I can fap to, but a serious story that tackles the topic in an interesting manner. Bummer that you don't know any :o

So it would've been better if Vegeta rapes everyone and is forgiven just because he fought Freezer?

How does that example help your cause, the only thing it shows is how poorly written Dragonball is.
Nothing "mature" about it at all whether it's rape or murder.

heh, sounds exactly like the nonsense I had in mind.
Glorifying rape as a force of good rather than evil. Japan/Asian countries are scary.

No, the point is: Vegeta should have been killed or imprisoned. But he wasn't, because somehow murder is an acceptable crime in fiction :/

shinta|hikari

Mon, 12-17-2018, 03:29 PM

I wasn't talking about porn or doujins. These are legit stories, fantasy, action, etc, that have rape in them, and it isn't treated the way you dislike.

However, they are not tackling rape in a serious manner. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so forgiving of the act.

MFauli

Mon, 12-17-2018, 05:11 PM

shinta|hikari

Mon, 12-17-2018, 05:25 PM

Yes, even massacres of entire clans, women and children included. But then again, they aren't tackling homicide in a serious manner either.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 12-18-2018, 02:42 AM

You can kill a person on accident, on impulse, or even out of revenge, yet I still have to see a true maniacal mass murderer join a hero. Warriors are not murderers, it's their "job".C'mon dude, Vegeta.

Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.

All of those other taboos actually happen on the regular and without anyone being shocked. Incest is super common. Lolicon themes are, too. And cannibalism, well, we all just saw Slime. It's only rape that causes an outrage, which I find endlessly hypocritical.Did you miss the part where Steam just took all the loli games off it's store?

I'm not sure where you get your info that you think the average person in the US is "cool" with incest or loli stuff in their anime either.

I'm no longer writing on the story, so I can tell you ablut what I had in mind: Carlyle, a 43 yo guy, convicted rapist, out of prison, raped a girl 15 years ago out of sheer lust. Has come to terms with it, fully realizes he did something very wrong. Why should he not be able to go on as a good person?In real life? Probably.

That doesn't mean anyone wants to watch an anime about that guy.

MFauli

Tue, 12-18-2018, 03:25 AM

C'mon dude, Vegeta.

Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.

Did you miss the part where Steam just took all the loli games off it's store?

I'm not sure where you get your info that you think the average person in the US is "cool" with incest or loli stuff in their anime either.

In real life? Probably.

That doesn't mean anyone wants to watch an anime about that guy.

1.) Steam's and Sony's censorship agenda are completely unrelated. If you want to know why their bs is wrong, I wrote a lengthy article about it here:

https://flyingfisch.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/the-war-on-anime-about-censorship-the-pedo-boogieman-and-morality/

2.) Society being ok with something doesn't justify banning it. But clearly people watching anime don't give a shit about loli characters, yet the same people are outraged when rape occurs.

3.) There's plenty of 'why would anyone wanna watch that' anime out there. Truth is that most people dislike having their morality challenged. It's why I'm glad we don't have the death penalty in Germany, because we certainly have enough dumb people that would enforce it if there wasn't a law.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 12-18-2018, 08:53 AM

1.) Steam's and Sony's censorship agenda are completely unrelated. If you want to know why their bs is wrong, I wrote a lengthy article about it here:Hahahahaha! No.

MFauli

Tue, 12-18-2018, 11:43 AM

Hahahahaha! No.

Then don't pretend to care about a topic.

KrayZ33

Tue, 12-18-2018, 03:52 PM

C'mon dude, Vegeta.

Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.

ya but it's hard to take an anime where death isn't even permanent seriously.
I mean, it's quite obvious that an anime like that isn't able to answer moral questions.
As mentioned, it wouldn't be any better if he rapes everyone instead of killing them in that case, as it's already painting the wrong picture.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 12-18-2018, 08:20 PM

Summary:

Why is rape not more common in mainstream stories?
Because
---it’s not as useful/versatile a tool for driving narrative compared to murder, and
---it’s not terribly enjoyable outside of porn

-When rape is shown, why is it so bad?
---because we identify with suffering more than death itself.
---and rape victims tell us that suffering is very real.
---dead guys don’t tell us much.

(Summary here is for clarity. The long version turned out less organised than I had envisioned)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long version:

Rape, Murder and depictions in media.

Miscellaneous stuff:

Shinta has pointed, rape/murder in non-serious context exist.

-non-serious rape media include porn and select stories.
-non-serious murder media include John Wick 2 and a plethora of other stuff.
-Serious rape media essentially doesn’t exist aside from documentaries.
-Serious murder media include largely documentaries to tragedy movies (think WW2 movies about Jews).

Driver for media contents include:
-agenda of the producer
-demands from the consumer.

If someone doesn’t want to talk about it, it won’t get made. It people don’t want to watch it, and producers know that, it won’t get made.

Now let’s hit the main issue you have with media depicting rape:

Why does popular media depict so little rape? When it does, why is it so bad? Why is murder more common and more accepted?

Rape as a narrative tool:

Rape for the most part isn’t pleasant to watch outside of porn. It also doesn’t drive a story forward in a way murder does.

Rape vs MC.
When it’s a case of the MC or related parties being raped, it usually serves as a reason for revenge. You can achieve a similar effect by murdering the MC’s family, or have the MC suffer other forms of harassment.
The benefit by avoiding rape as a topic is that the medium ran be rated for a wider audience. Parents don’t have to give sex education to their kids afterwards.

Rape by MC:

Narratives follow this general direction:

-Main characters encounter a problem.
-Main characters take action to resolve the problem.
-????
-Story.

As an action, murder solves problems in ways that rape doesn’t. The MC may be forced to “kill” someone in order to progress with whatever their agenda is (such as staying alive).

I can best express this as “there’s no good reason to rape someone”. You can interrogate, detain, delay or incapacitate someone without raping them. The “raping” part only serves the benefit of the rapist, taking away their moral highground when characters perform necessary evils.

Example:
-I killed him because he was after my life. I had to get that information out of him. I couldn’t let him leave.
-I had(???) to rape him

(The only reason I can think of, is if you’re required to impregnate someone forcefully. That’s pretty niche territory. )

In summary, rape isn’t as versatile or as logical an action for conflict resolution in most narratives. Amongst other reasons (taste etc), that’s why it’s shown less in narratives.

Now when it does happen, why is it so cringe-worthy?

-Well for one, because there is no redeeming factor in the act. (Enter above paragraph about rape being non-essential and only benefiting the rapist).

Rape, murder and suffering.

We’re taught that rape victims suffer physically and mentally from this by survivors. Their suffering, screaming, anguish, fear and helplessness is also what’s depicted on screen. That’s something most viewers can identify with.

Suffering experienced by the dead is difficult to conceptualise, because they’re dead. One can imagine the lost life they could have lived, or estimate the lost economic productivity they could have provided and so forth. But no one really knows what it feels like to have that taken away from you and not be around to watch it. Suffering stops once you’re dead. It’s the living who continue to suffer.

Let’s talk about Game of Thrones for a bit. Ramsay Bolton is a cunt, not because he killed a bunch of people like everyone else in the show, but because he causes suffering by raping and torturing for no reason other than to satisfy his own twisted desires. No one likes Ramsay Bolton.

Finally, I want to talk about mutual intentions.

Rape is pretty one-sided. One person has the upper hand, and takes sexual advantage of whoever they’ve pinned down. It’s never “rape or be raped”.

Murder can result from two people fighting, and one kills the other out of ‘necessity’. That’s excusable from a self defence perspective. When one person has an overwhelming advantage and just wastes innocent people they’re not in conflict with? You can call that a slaughter. (eg mass shooters)

And society doesn’t have anything good to say about them either.

Summary:

-Why is rape not more common in mainstream stories? Because
---it’s not as useful a tool for driving narrative, and
---it’s not terribly enjoyable outside of porn

-When rape is shown, why is it so bad?
---because we identify with suffering more than death itself.
---and rape victims tell us that suffering is very real.

MFauli, if you want to talk about rape being a useful narrative driver, go right ahead. I’m no expert in story writing.
As for whether the suffering from rape is real or not, and whether it compares with dead people, you’ll have to take this up with rape victims and dead people.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 12-18-2018, 08:30 PM

I think you missed adding the lack of justification for rape in your final summary. That's a very important point because a lot of killing happening in decently written stories is done for a justifiable reason, not pleasure in the act itself. Even most villains kill for a goal. Very few protagonists kill for pleasure (i.e. Dexter) but even then he has a code of only killing other killers. The villains that do kill for pleasure are generally written to be hated.

I also think you missed adding the profit factor in why rape is not common in mainstream stories, even though you mentioned it in the middle of your post. If rape started selling, people would start adding it, but it doesn't sell for reasons stated in your "why is it so bad" list.

One random tidbit I thought of:
Cool looking things sell.
Killing sells because it can be cool. Look at action films and games. Cool moves that lead to human death sells.
Rape can't be cool. It's kinda gory at worst and sexy (in porn to some [cause you know it's fake]) at best. Hard to sell that.

MFauli

Wed, 12-19-2018, 03:21 AM

Buff, I thought the topic would be over so I didn't want to reply, but anyway:

Your entire posting is based off the assumption that

a) rape is 'different' and
b) can never be presented in a way that supports the plot.

I'm contemplating how much sense it'd make to create examples that prove your assumption wrong, but I'm afraid you'd easily dismiss them, so I'd be wasting my time. I'll try anyway, because I'm an idiot with too much time.

First, I find it pretty condescending to grant rape victims a higher level of sympathy than murder victims. Yes, we can see their suffering (sometimes. Not all rape victims are damaged goods, it's bad that society pushes that narrative as it discourages victims from getting over it), but that's what makes it less bad than murder: murder has you see nothing. It's the end, the absolute barrier between existence and ... . I like to compare it like this: Rape crimes are like your clichee dark villain covered in black and putting on 'evil eyes'. Murder crimes, however, are like those creepy pure-white, emotionless villains, beyond comprehension.

But let's return to rape in stories.

You claimed that rape serves no purpose other than making the perpetrator himself feel good. I'll now list a couple scenarios that I'd find interesting. I invite you to tell me why you think they'd be boring:

- MC committed rape in the past. Has changed his way. Goes on to protect the world yada yada. (Interesting dilemma: on one hand rape, on the other hand saving everybody)

- Variant #1: Probably fantasy setting. MC is underling of real villain. Is ordered to rape heroine to humiliate her. Later he has a change of heart, realizes his boss is evil, and joins the heroes. Maybe even works together with raped heroine. (interesting dilemma: being forced to rape. Meeting your victim)

- Variant #2: MC is regular guy in real world. His family was kidnapped. Anonymous message tells him to go somewhere. Finds a high school girl locked in a cell. New message: 'Rape her or we'll kill your family. We've got cameras everywhere. You've got 5 minutes left to start.' (interesting dilemma: MC absolutely istn't a bad person who wants to rape. But put against the potential murder of his family, he'll do it, ofc. Interesting to obbserve the fallout: how does his wife react? The victim? The police?)

- Rape not as a central plot machine but as an everyday occurrence for realism's sake. BERSERK does it well. I always wondered while watching Naruto: if this wasn't a shounen series, there'd have to be a lot of rape. The entire concept of kunoichi revolves around being prepared for 'the worst'. When defeated kunoichi lie on the batlefield, surely opponent ninja wouldn't be all that nice and just have 'fun'. See perverts like Jiraiya. Again, it's shounen so it didn't happen. But ...

- Even in reality: middle age law of 'priore noctis' is basically 'plot rape'.

- People commit murder from spontaneous emotion, but the same can also happen for rape.

As you might be able to see, I'm not actually calling for active rape scenes to be shown (maybe outside of those implied rapes in terrible locations for realism's sake). What makes rape in fiction appealing to me is the aftermath it causes. It's exciting to see how people deal with it. To see everybody's morality being put to a test, often times crumbling, sometimes succeeding.

You're right that active rape scenes would hardly contribute the plot (it's possible, though), but rape as something that happenED (past tense) and is now subject for further psychological, societal, cultural exploration? I find that extremely Interesting. We live in a society where dumb people treat rapists worse than murderers. I'd love to see stories that break taboos and show a reality where even the worst people can become good again - and thus deserve a 2nd chance. It's not even because I sympathize with rapists (although I DO condemn how society treats those that did their time in jail and are free again), but because we've all seen countless stories that follow the mantra 'rapist irredeemably evil'. It's boring. I want to see stuff that's not boring. It's that simple.

MFauli

Wed, 12-19-2018, 03:23 AM

Shinta, you just wrote sexy stuff doesn't sell. Lol :p

But seriously, it's kinda unfair to say 'rape doesn't sell', when our US-dominated western society has long been indoctrinated that 'violence cool, sex bad'. At that point it's no longer about rape specifically.

KrayZ33

Wed, 12-19-2018, 04:51 AM

- People commit murder from spontaneous emotion, but the same can also happen for rape.

Murder isn't spontaneous, that's why we differenciate between murder and manslaughter.

And while involuntary manslaughter certainly is a thing, and even intentional manslaughter after being provoked (for example).

Raping someone for the same reason is not "normal" and tells you a lot about the mental state of the culprit. The act of rape isn't over in an instant.. it's hard to make it count as an "spontaneous" act.

MFauli

Wed, 12-19-2018, 06:19 AM

).

Raping someone for the same reason is not "normal" and tells you a lot about the mental state of the culprit. The act of rape isn't over in an instant.. it's hard to make it count as an "spontaneous" act.

Aaand now you're doing the exact shit that I condemn: you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh? (btw bugger of with 'murder vs manslaughter', I'm not a lawyer and don't care about idiotic differentiations. Murder is murder)

Buffalobiian

Wed, 12-19-2018, 06:47 AM

Your entire posting is based off the assumption that

a) rape is 'different' and
b) can never be presented in a way that supports the plot.

-I don’t know what you mean by “rape is different” – different to what?

-I didn’t say it can never contribute to a plot. I said that it’s less useful and versatile compared to murder, which explains why you see much more murder in mainstream narratives than rape.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving onto your variant scenarios, you’re inviting me to explain why they’d be boring. I never said stories involving rape would be boring. I said the following:

-Rape isn’t as versatile/useful a tool in narratives and conflict resolution compared to other means.
-You can interrogate, detain, delay or incapacitate someone without raping them.
-You can achieve a similar effect by ….. other forms of harassment.
-The benefit by avoiding rape as a topic is that the medium ran be rated for a wider audience. Parents don’t have to give sex education to their kids afterwards.

(Some of the above 4 points are taken out of context from my previous post, but the message itself is still true).

As for your specific variants:

-Original: MC raped, but now wants to do good.
-Variant 1: MC raped thinking it was the right thing to do, now he wants to do good.
-Variant 2: MC was forced to rape, now he wants to do good.

I think the Original and Variant 1 is fine as a story base. Variant 2 won’t be challenging anyone’s morality as it’s standard forced crime stuff.

Again, I never said the stories could never be interesting, I said that rape is less often used compared to other methods in narrative because they can achieve similar effects without stepping on landmines*.

Replace *rape* in your scenarios with grievous bodily harm, murder (of family) etc, and you could achieve a similar conflict from a narrative perspective.

This avoids (the landmines)*:
-rating issues.
-Consumer distaste issues.

As stated, producer factors and consumer factors influence what gets made. You’re really pushing for this because that’s what you want to see. If there’s a big consumer demand for this (that I’m not seeing), then the producers aren’t seeing it either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In general, whether someone is respected post criminal conviction depends on their mentality. Someone who appears to have resolved their reason or propensity to rape and has served their sentence is a free person again. Someone who clearly disrespects women and will do it again at the next opportunity should be shunned. This applies to rapists and murderers alike.

To be honest, if you want to prove that rapists can be good people or challenge the way rapists are treated in real life, ask for a documentary on the rehabilitation of rapists, and the unfair prejudice they feel post incarceration. That’s the best platform to actually get for/against perspectives on the same screen while promoting factual accuracy. Narratives bend facts all the time to suit the plot.

ADDIT:
-MFauli, your dismissal of the difference between intentional and unintentional homocide reminds me of our discussion between intentional vs unintentional peeking:

https://www.gotwoot.org/showthread.php/23637-Boku-no-Hero-Academia?p=561809&viewfull=1#post561809

MFauli

Wed, 12-19-2018, 08:21 AM

Again, I think the 'audiences don't wanna see rape' is a consequence of being used to certain crimes and not others. That's why people obviously think I'm trolling when I say "I want more rape in media", but it's actually based on reason.

You're saying murder is more versatile ... I'd say that's not true, not to a significant degree. Where it suffers versatility compared to murder is gender equality - rape would mostly have female victims, while murder doesn't discriminate (even though most murder victims in media are male).

In the end, I want Interesting stories and I want some justice (imagine Vegeta had raped Bulma - he'd be a villain forever).

As for the semantics debate, I'm really not dismissing anything here. I'm not a lawyer, English isn't my primary language, so for the purpose of this debate,murder equals human killing human. The technicalities don't matter here. Also Mineta is the only redeeming quality of BnHA.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 12-19-2018, 10:13 AM

Murder versus homicide/manslaughter is not a semantics argument. They are literally two different things and are treated vastly differently in the court of law and seen differently by the public as well.

I believe Buff gave a crap ton of examples where killing someone in a story is a viable option where rape isn't, such as self-defense, getting rid of an obstacle, etc. Other common narrative scenario examples are silencing witnesses, saving a hostage, or car chases, all of which commonly involve killing (because it'd be unbelievable otherwise), but won't be facilitated by rape at all. Killing also allows you to remove a character from a story, which is important for many types of stories, but rape can't do that. You can't just rape someone and forget they existed. They'll probably want justice or revenge (see MeToo movement). You can simply do more things with killing to push a story forward than rape.

Also, my (and Buff's) point isn't that stories involving rape (as redeemable/acceptable) are bad or boring or wrong. It's that it wouldn't sell, so no one would make it.

As for acclimating audiences to rape, I'd like to pose the question of why? Do we really need more people with sympathy fatigue in a world where everyone is so apathetic and cruel already (check how people behave online)? I'm not saying we shouldn't, but is there really any benefit to it outside of the few who want to see it?

The entire point of mainstream media is to cater to the masses. The outliers have niche media to satisfy them, so I don't understand why you want to intentionally push for something that is rejected by the masses to be included in mainstream media, when you aren't part of that group anyway and can obtain your entertainment somewhere else.

When I said sexy, I clearly qualified it in the brackets. Sexy - in porn to some people because they know it's fake. That's clearly not the mainstream audience. That definitely wouldn't sell as much as Avengers or Frozen.

EDIT:
Also, that moment when a typo can get really bad:

ADDIT:
-MFauli, your dismissal of the difference between intentional and unintentional homocide reminds me of our discussion between intentional vs unintentional peeking:

KrayZ33

Wed, 12-19-2018, 11:29 AM

Aaand now you're doing the exact shit that I condemn: you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh? (btw bugger of with 'murder vs manslaughter', I'm not a lawyer and don't care about idiotic differentiations. Murder is murder)

Murder is murder, yes... but manslaughter is not murder because manslaughter is manslaughter

but I know what you mean and that basically equals saying "rape is just sex..."

you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh?

"yes" for the first part, "no" for the second.
The important thing is that rape has a completely different motivation most of the time than murder or manslaughter.

MFauli

Thu, 12-20-2018, 05:11 PM

"yes" for the first part, "no" for the second.
The important thing is that rape has a completely different motivation most of the time than murder or manslaughter.

But neither is 'superior' to the other. Agreed?

Buffalobiian

Thu, 12-20-2018, 09:27 PM

But neither is 'superior' to the other. Agreed?

Between murder and manslaughter, or between rape and homicide?

shinta|hikari

Thu, 12-20-2018, 09:37 PM

Between the mind of a murderer and the mind of a rapist, I think.

Buffalobiian

Thu, 12-20-2018, 10:48 PM

Between the mind of a murderer and the mind of a rapist, I think.

If so, I'll need MFauli to clarrify if he still considers any form of "human killing human" to be equal morally.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 12-20-2018, 11:21 PM

At this point I think he means both acts are intentional.

MFauli

Thu, 12-20-2018, 11:26 PM

At this point I think he means both acts are intentional.

Yes. And keep in mind that I'm against the death penalty and Punisher-style revenge is bs.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 12-20-2018, 11:54 PM

They are equally bad IMO, or maybe murderers are a bit worse, if only because rapists may rationalize their sin as something that leaves the victims alive afterwards.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 12-21-2018, 01:37 AM

Then don't pretend to care about a topic.Just because I don't want to hear YOUR stupid take on something doesn't mean I don't care about it.

You're like the last person I would go to to get actual information on a topic.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 12-22-2018, 01:48 AM

Keep it civil guys.

MFauli

Fri, 12-28-2018, 07:43 PM

Gridman finale watched.

Have to say: this is a prime example of what I mean when I talked about the irrational difference between treatment of murderers and rapists.

Akane was a cruel, heartless murderer, killing thousands if not millions. But come the finale, the anime wants me to show empathy for this bitch. Fuck this shit, I didn't want Akane to be saved! She deserved to be defeated.

But raping a single girl? Irredeemable villain!!1

Sorry, didn't know in which thread to post.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 12-28-2018, 08:09 PM

Wasn't the entire thing her dream..?

Ryllharu

Fri, 12-28-2018, 08:10 PM

Sorry, didn't know in which thread to post.

Presumably one where it wouldn't be a complete spoiler for a series...

I realize that the active forum community is pretty small these days, but this* would be one of, if not the worst, thread to post that in.

*= referring to the Anime Recommendations thread, from which this post was moved.

MFauli

Sat, 12-29-2018, 04:35 AM

Sorry, Ryll. At least I put 'finale' at the start of my posting :o

Wasn't the entire thing her dream..?

No more than our reality might be a God's dream - so still pretty real for us.

Death BOO Z

Sat, 12-29-2018, 03:32 PM

i don't know which animes you're talking about, but here's my two bits:

Rape is worse than murder (in media), because we have a living victim.
And actually, I think that having a villain cut off / torture a person and letting that person live would make him less sympathetic than a villain that killed a person and chopped off the entire body. So mutilation is also worse than murder.
I'm also willing to go and say that necrophilia is probably more sympathetic than rape.
corpses (and murder victims in media) are things, objects. as audiences, we don't have any identification with them, so a character can kill millions in a show, but when we judge whether we like him or not, he is the only contestent, so we identify with.
If there's a living victim, then we have two sides, and we judge the evil character much more harshly, becuase the actions are weighted against their effect on a living character.

shinta|hikari

Thu, 01-03-2019, 02:58 PM

So how do you guys feel about this?

https://twitter.com/ActionZacku/status/1078122861435310080

https://twitter.com/Silmerion/status/1078134030657339392

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-04-2019, 12:58 AM

So how do you guys feel about this?

https://twitter.com/ActionZacku/status/1078122861435310080

https://twitter.com/Silmerion/status/1078134030657339392

1. The new anime looks interesting

2. The complaints look boring.

Kraco

Fri, 01-04-2019, 03:19 AM

So how do you guys feel about this?

https://twitter.com/ActionZacku/status/1078122861435310080

https://twitter.com/Silmerion/status/1078134030657339392

To be honest I have no idea why the Japanese LN writers love slavery so much and see no problems in it. I've read some manga adaptations where previously free and mentally healthy women practically insist on becoming the MC's slaves. I'm not saying this to deny the fact slavery was an everyday thing in the past, but even back then people didn't strive to be slaves if they had a choice, and seemingly decent modern people suddenly isekaied to a world with slavery should have some reservations. But reading the manga based on LNs (or the LNs themselves) makes me think the Koreans aren't exaggerating their suffering under the Japanese rule before and during the WW2.

Trying to defend the bitch in Shield Hero is insane, though. The MC also has his reasons and is a reasonable person, all in all. But even for him slavery as a concept isn't seemingly distasteful. Perhaps it all boils down to the difference in valuing individuality and personal freedom in the East and West.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-04-2019, 07:39 PM

I think the vertical hierarchy in Japan makes servitude a much less obscure thing there than in most other countries.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-04-2019, 07:49 PM

I find it strange that people are latching onto the rape accusation thing, as if it is more unbelievable than being transported to a different world. It is extremely rare for sure, but dimensional travel and magic weapons are rarer.

Is it because the villain is female? I wonder if they'd react the same if the accuser is male.

Death BOO Z

Sat, 01-05-2019, 03:41 AM

the whole isekai + OP mary sue MC + harem genre creeps me out. that doesn't mean it should not exist or that any 'discourse' of it should start with "you are wrong for liking this show and a mysogenic asshole".
havne't read shield hero yet, but i don't really get what's the issue with goblin slayer, the creepy rapey stuff there is very tame as far as i recognize.

Edit;
having read the 50 chapters of the manga that I could find, I think the argument against the story are pretty stupid.
I don't know how it ends, or how the VN presents things, but the manga is pretty clear on 'rape is bad', 'you shouldn't have sex with loli's', 'bottling up your anger and feeling nothing but hatred hurts you' and even 'doing bad things prevents you from feeling good'. much better than most isekai shit stories i see. the art isn't exploitative towards the female characters, no male gaze, there aren't any scenes when the loli harem innocently crawls into bed with the 'oh so tame' hero. in terms of attitude towards sex, it ranks pretty high.

Also, if you subsitute the MC to being from a minority group, you can get a decent blunt metaphore about racism without changing any other beat of the story.

KrayZ33

Sun, 01-06-2019, 04:40 PM

What a retard, this is why twitter shouldn't exist and the world was better off when it didn't suffer from that plague.

This is attention whoring... nothing more.

The author is female, it's clearly not written as a critique - so where is the problem.

Also, the story is about a dude who is completely reliant on the woman to survive since he can't do *anything* alone - so what the fuck?
Would love their thoughts on that (actually not, but you know...).

Ryllharu

Sun, 01-06-2019, 06:26 PM

To address shinta's question:

I continue to find it fascinating that ANN (where Zac works) is run by so many people that on the surface, appear to absolutely despise everything about anime. Most of them used to like it, and watching their descents over the last decade or so has been enlightening.

My conclusions have been thus:
1) If your livelihood depends on getting paid for your hobby, you will eventually grow to hate your hobby.
2) If you are male, live in an English-speaking country, and refer to yourself as a feminist (as he does), you are actually a misogynist.
a) Male feminists ultimately act as if women are incapable of improving their own situations. Because they're "helping." Or brazenly white knighting all over the place.
b) Women don't need help (at least in the US, UK, or Canada).
c) Women must be incapable of helping themselves if they require such assistance.
d) The correct solution, is to shut the fuck up and listen to women when they complain about it. Or make sure that they're getting credit for the things that they do. And stop mansplaining (https://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/mansplaining.png) to them (I'm working on that one myself...because explaining everything to everyone is a hard habit to break).

3) They don't even watch, read, or even research the shit they're bitching about. They get told by twitter what to lose their shit about now.
a) A number of years ago, Zac actually used to do this on purpose. He'd write a parody review of the first episode in their preview, clearly without having watched a translated version, on mute, or by skimming it. And it was an obvious parody. Then he turned into a parody of that character, without a shred of irony.
b) The rest of the staff followed suit, becoming outraged before they had ever seen the subject of their outrage.
c) Bans were handed out to people who attempted to correct them or provide context, and eventually anyone who disagreed.

Now...the Shield Hero web novel is hot garbage. It's awful. The light novel and manga are both okay, but they are showing the same degeneration of plot. The author had an idea (plot holes notwithstanding), ran through it, and had no fucking clue what to do with it next. But it isn't sexist. It isn't a "misogynist revenge fantasy," it is a regular revenge fantasy. There's plenty of those in shoujo, josei, and shonen, and nobody gives a shit.

Everyone flew off their fucking rockers because this revenge fantasy is caused by a false rape charge. Which makes me believe that the squawkers are subconsciously (or quite consciously) very, very worried about the credibility of #BelieveAllWomen.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 01-06-2019, 06:54 PM

I'm a male feminist ...

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-06-2019, 07:05 PM

I think Ryll is referring to more extreme forms of feminism, while Buff is more of a moderate.

I'd like to think of myself as supportive of women's right to true equality, but I don't wanna label myself a feminist. It's too loaded.

Ryllharu

Sun, 01-06-2019, 07:28 PM

Yes, the vocal feminists and "feminists."

Just treat everyone the same, unless you're noticing some bullshit. Call that out, but as bullshit. Not as sexism because the target of it was a woman. Do it for everyone, because it is bullshit.

I actively hepeat (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hepeated) my women coworkers, but always start it with "Like ____ said...." They know I'm doing it because I mentioned the term when I found out about it, and told them I'd do it for them. They happily agreed, and all think it is hilarious because of how obvious the sexism of it all ends up looking.

I repeat anyone who gets ignored in meetings, because I'm loud, and I always give them the credit when I do it. But the women think it is hilarious.

Women are more than capable of defending themselves. Some passively, some actively. They don't need the help unless they ask for it.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-06-2019, 10:10 PM

I think my biggest gripe about this whole thing is about how all these overly sensitive reactions hide actual problems because it's hard to spot a specific tree in a forest, even if its roots are far deeper.

Since this thread is also about morality and not just rape, I wanted to ask how does everyone feel about the recent censorship Sony is doing on their console games?

Ryllharu

Mon, 01-07-2019, 04:22 AM

Sony doing to themselves, or what localization companies have been doing to the US and Europe forever?

I hadn't heard about the former, but sanitizing Japanese games has been going on since the 90s, but is really out of control now with Western translators actually being proud of mistranslating games in order to make them meet their particular worldview instead.

Kraco

Mon, 01-07-2019, 04:55 AM

Since this thread is also about morality and not just rape, I wanted to ask how does everyone feel about the recent censorship Sony is doing on their console games?

I'm almost always against all forms of censorship. Games should just have age restrictions and they should be enforced well enough. Of course it doesn't help that in the USA, the giant source and market of the entertainment business, it's perfectly okay to show 100 people brutally murdered, but if a dick is shown on screen, it's very troublesome. No doubt many games are only censored so that they could be sold to a larger market. Pure businessmen make all the decisions in an increasing number of game studios and publishers. They couldn't care less about the game contents or the efforts of the game developers, as long as they can imagine selling as much as possible (which often fails).

Buffalobiian

Mon, 01-07-2019, 04:56 AM

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-07-2019, 07:17 AM

Oh by censorship, I didn't mean westernization. I meant Japanese games themselves are now being censored on Sony consoles. Some say it's due to Sony's HQ being moved to California.

Kraco

Mon, 01-07-2019, 08:28 AM

By feminist, I mean it in the true sense of the word: equal rights. Which is like... basic human decency. It sucks that the term makes people think you support females rather than supporting equality, but that's what I'm going for.

I actually don't do anything much in daily life to "advocate" for feminism. That's not required.

That makes you are normal person, not a feminist. A feminist is someone who works for the goal of bettering the women's equality or researches the status of women in history or our times, in any relevant field whatsoever, be it business, politics, art, science, etc. The former is not only direct political/societal work but for example there can be feminist movie directors/producers or book authors.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-07-2019, 08:31 AM

That makes you a decent person, not a feminist.

Fixed.

Normal people are overrated.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-07-2019, 01:55 PM

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/preview-guide/2019/winter/the-rising-of-the-shield-hero/.141699

Reviews that predictably talk a lot about the "controversy."

Death BOO Z

Mon, 01-07-2019, 03:36 PM

seriously, they should have just coded the hero as being from a marginilezed group (black for americans, korean for japanese... etc) and the story would be much clearer, with him being both an lower class person in our world and in theirs, which would also negate a bit the false rape accusation by having it mirror anti-minority propoganda.

well, It's intersting to see how this trend will play out. it made me click, so they probably already won.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-07-2019, 04:19 PM

My personal opinion is the show isn't trying to advocate anything or oppress anyone. The story just used that because a lot of Japanese males would relate to women treating them like trash or tricking them for money, making the target audience hate the girl as much as Naofumi.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 01-08-2019, 06:34 AM

That makes you are normal person, not a feminist. A feminist is someone who works for the goal of bettering the women's equality or researches the status of women in history or our times, in any relevant field whatsoever, be it business, politics, art, science, etc. The former is not only direct political/societal work but for example there can be feminist movie directors/producers or book authors.

That would make you an activists. I don't think you have to actually do anything to believe rights should be equal between sexes.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 01-08-2019, 08:52 AM

Being a feminist is supporting feminism. If the definition of support is believing in the right thing and doing nothing wrong, then no political movement would succeed. Supporting a cause means actively doing something for it because you have to change the current reality.

For example, I believe we should protect the environment and stop destroying it. That said, I don't do anything actively to do that. I segregate and recycle, and also try my best to reduce waste, but that's expected of everyone especially if you live in a country that makes that a norm. I don't think or call myself an environmentalist.

Ryllharu

Tue, 01-08-2019, 06:33 PM

That would make you an activists. I don't think you have to actually do anything to believe rights should be equal between sexes.

There's a different word for that. Egalitarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism).

Buffalobiian

Wed, 01-09-2019, 06:08 AM

I segregate and recycle, and also try my best to reduce waste, but that's expected of everyone especially if you live in a country that makes that a norm.

That just seems weird.

Feminism was a term from before the 21st century, when women did not have the same rights as men. People who believed women should have the same rights as men would have been seeing inequality all over the place, and act in a way themselves in support of gender equality.

For example, "I would not discriminate between males and females when I hire."

Just because equality has moved forward now to the point where gender equality (read: feminism) has largely been achieved doesn't change this.

You don't have to be "more feminist" than general society to be a feminist. Ryll's link has very correctly stated that "It is generally accepted by egalitarians that feminism falls under egalitarianism and that some feminists identify themselves as egalitarian which under the broadly understood definition of the word is equality for both men and women"

Egalitarianism = equality in regards to all aspects.
Feminism is Gender Egalitarianism.

Gender equality (feminism) has an endpoint = namely when genders have equal rights and treatment. You don't have to "support gender equality than the common public" to be a feminist. You just have to support it, period. And if the society you live in is already in support of this in a way that means you don't have to do anything - great. The goalpost doesn't move.

Being an environmentalist is different in that many would argue that our way of living doesn’t achieve our environmental goals. The way the general population consumes meat products or uses motor vehicles are far from ideal for the environment. The term “environmentally friendly” is used as a relative term because we have not yet achieved near-zero-environmental-impact, so you can only be “more” friendly towards the environment compared to the next guy.

If society advanced to a stage where our way of life has close to zero environmental impact (and I live in such a way), then I’m environmentally friendly in the absolute sense. The fact that other people do this doesn’t change your near-zero-environmental-impact way of life.

Kraco

Wed, 01-09-2019, 08:14 AM

Feminism doesn't have an endpoint. Even if perfect gender equality was achieved, proper feminism could still study the life and history of the female portion of the population. Not to mention many modern feminists aren't interested in equality but rather reforming the world to their liking. After all, much of our society and culture was designed back when women had mostly unofficial power, that is, by men, and those modern feminists hate it.

"Feminism is Gender Egalitarianism" <- Incorrect.

Much of feminism is gender egalitarianism, but not nearly all of it.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 01-09-2019, 11:37 AM

@Buff - I just used environmentalist as a random analogy, so the details you mentioned didn't even matter in my head.

Why would you even want to identify as a feminist vs just being egalitarian then? If all you wanted was to be seen as someone who treats people equally, why adopt a really loaded term that has way more range in meaning than you ascribe to it? As Kraco said, feminism is not just gender egalitarianism.

Also, the goalpost is still far from being passed even in North America and Australia. The pay gap is still there, and there are still a lot of harassment and power abuse against women (i.e. Ryll's post about hepeating). There's still a lot to do, and saying that there isn't is actually contradictory to being a feminist.

Just saying you support something without, say, donating to movements or actively informing people of the existing disparity isn't exactly supporting it IMO. But that all boils down to the semantics of "support" so there's really nothing to discuss anymore.

I'm not saying I myself will do anything, well, because I'm not a feminist.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 01-09-2019, 04:50 PM

Not to mention many modern feminists aren't interested in equality but rather reforming the world to their liking.

Just because many vocal modern so-called feminists skew our perceptions and use this label to enhance women's powers rather than struggling for equality of opportunity and rights (rather than equality of outcomes) doesn't change the fact that feminism at its core and basic definition is about gender equality.

@Shinta:

It's a bit complicated in terms of whether I do or don't want to identify as a feminist. Let me explain.

-The term nowadays has become skewed by modern, vocal parties to suggest people who are really pushy in furthering women's agendas. It's at a point where one may even actively avoid identifying themselves as a feminist to avoid these connotations. But feminism at its core is gender egalitarianism. To say that you're not a feminist is basically saying you don't believe in equal gender treatments.

That's why I make a point that feminism isn't about being pushy, loud, and lobbying for women's benefits at every opportunity. It's about equal rights, nor more rights.

Loud, pushy feminism to classic feminism (read: gender egalitarianism) is like what ISIS is to Islam. The minority who use the name loudly and almost destructively skews people's definitions and perspectives of the whole.

That's why I make a point of this.

This Forbes article discusses a similar issue.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2017/03/08/what-is-feminism-and-why-do-so-many-women-and-men-hate-it/#583c55e37e8e

---------------------------

As for pay-gap, it's a measure that corresponds to variables. Gender discrimination has a role to play, but by and large it comes down to choice of career. In a management level and high-ranking jobs with individual contracts (as opposed to award-mandated wages), that comes down to assertiveness in negotiations.

As for hepeating, I don't see that in my career as being caused by gender. It's caused by (a lack of) assertiveness, or at times charisma/delivery.

I do recognise that just because I don't observe hepeating does not mean that it is absent in other societies or occupations however. I'll take your word for this that you guys see it elsewhere, and when it does happen I agree that credit should be given where it's due. I have more junior doctors or medical students suggest ideas that get ignored, and I make it a point later to say "this idea came from xyz", but I fail to see it as a gender issue. It's an assertiveness/seniority issue. Gender may be associated with it if females are on average less assertive than males, but that isn't causative.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 01-09-2019, 05:17 PM

I totally agree with your view of how the word feminism is now perceived and how that came to be, which was why I asked why you even want to be associated to it, when you can just call yourself (gender) egalitarian and people would understand you without all the added baggage.

As for existing sexism, it is more prevalent in some industries but not in others. In my personal experience in IT, I've never seen females treated less than males, but maybe that's owed to the sheer diversity of the people working there. That said, I've heard about it happening from people I know, and statistics about it shouldn't be hard to find online.

I do sort of agree with your view that assertiveness plays a factor, and also do think women are less assertive than men in general just from my experience, but that's also because they are playing into the gender expectations for them which are so ingrained into society and people's minds. That's actually one of the things legit feminists fight against, the antiquated perceptions of femininity, such as being modest and quiet.

Ryllharu

Wed, 01-09-2019, 05:30 PM

There are "waves" of Feminism, and it is interesting to watch it shift from degrees of gained freedoms to levels of extremism. The First Wave was suffrage and other legal issues, 2nd Wave dealt with sexuality, workplace equality, reproductive rights, and addressing rape. I think 2nd Wave is what the majority of people think when they think about Feminism with a capital "F."

The majority of the Western World doesn't disagree with the ideas of 2nd Wave feminism. There are societies that haven't achieved it yet. That's where the worldwide community should be focusing. Instead we got 3rd Wave and 4th Wave feminism. They're both vague, they're both culture zeitgeist related, and they both have no clearly defined goal. First, it was all well and good, and then 3rd started attacking 2nd. Then 4th started attacking 3rd. Then 3rd retaliated. And then some feminists fight each other, or anyone for any reason, rather than concerning themselves with making progress.

/shrug

As for hepeating. It's hard to notice at first, but it has nothing to do with assertiveness or lack thereof, charisma or delivery. Once you start noticing it, it really is kinda pathetic that it actually is a thing. Your colleague might have a great idea, and she will just get completely brushed over. The ignoring doesn't even seem to be a conscious thing. Other women will even do it to other women! (Other women will ignore a peer, then concur with the same idea once a man says it.)

You have to actively look for it to notice it. Thinking back won't get you there. I didn't realize how often it happened until I learned about the term and concept.

It is baffling.

Or maybe ask a female colleague about it, and if she has seen it happen to her or another woman.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 01-09-2019, 05:33 PM

I do sort of agree with your view that assertiveness plays a factor, and also do think women are less assertive than men in general just from my experience, but that's also because they are playing into the gender expectations for them which are so ingrained into society and people's minds. That's actually one of the things legit feminists fight against, the antiquated perceptions of femininity, such as being modest and quiet.

I wonder about that. (edit: that may be true.. but in the same way that one believes "I'll be happier if I'm nicer to people".)

I'll include here the (hilariously frustrating) interview between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman here addressing this (wage gap discussion happens around 5mins in):

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=295

-----------------------

The following 3hr video is tangential to the above discussion (in that it's related to morality and social structures), but it's one of the rarer interviews where an interviewer is interested in Peterson's views and not in simply challenging them. (Dr Oz, surprisingly enough). It's also the best one.

https://youtu.be/AscPHmLWo-M

Ryllharu

Wed, 01-09-2019, 05:46 PM

It was infuriating how often Cathy Newman was putting words in his mouth in lieu of ever actually making a counterpoint.

Journalists in general seem to loathe Peterson because his views contrast the narrative threads that many newspapers and their websites push with regards to feminism, the pay gap, pronouns, etc., so it is hard to get an actual read his stances on things and overall attitude.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 01-09-2019, 06:08 PM

It was infuriating how often Cathy Newman was putting words in his mouth in lieu of ever actually making a counterpoint.

I can tolerate her misinterpreting things, but I lost it when she goes "Aren't you basically a shit-stirrer" twice. Way to go.

Kraco

Wed, 01-09-2019, 06:20 PM

Ryllharu

Wed, 01-09-2019, 06:42 PM

"Women keeping themselves down" is peer pressure and demand for conformity from the society they're in. Sometimes it is even regional, or city to city.

It's also applicable to men, in different ways.

The best people in my life are those who don't give a shit about what others expect them to be like and act like.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 01-09-2019, 10:20 PM

About the first video, I find that interviewer did a disservice to all women by acting the part of the irrational, hysterical, and loud female lambasting a rational, composed, and eloquent male. It was also sad to see how she is trying to vilify the dude's every statement by making it seem "things as they are" are "things as he wants them to be." Unlike what he mentioned in the interview, she wasn't doing that to search for the truth. She was doing it to provoke him and to gather attention.

EDIT:

Since we're all men here, I'm curious. What do you think about the gender equality in your respective countries? Is there a lot of work left to do or is it already a touchdown?

Kraco

Thu, 01-10-2019, 02:35 AM

Since we're all men here, I'm curious. What do you think about the gender equality in your respective countries? Is there a lot of work left to do or is it already a touchdown?

Finland sits in Top 5 in gender equality, so much has been done. That being said, of course there's still work to be done. Our previous president was a woman, with the two consecutive terms in office, so technically women can climb the ladder as high as possible. Still, most notable politicians remain men, although there are plenty of female politicians around, including party leaders and ministers (a cabinet without female ministers would be unthinkable already). However, the person with the actual highest power, the prime minister, has been quite solidly a man. Neither of the only two female prime ministers in history sat the whole term. In the armed forces, the commander's position remain quite distant for female officers for the time being, but then again, the military has only been open for women for a couple of decades.

Gender pay gap exists, but is quite small or doesn't exist if the job title is the same. It's mainly generated by the division of jobs (more women in jobs paying less), plus men doing more overtime and having slightly longer careers due to various factors. CEOs and such are still more typically men, but naturally not nearly always.

Although development has for the most part been positive, general safety unfortunately hasn't been. Still in the 90's even in bigger cities most women would dare to walk the streets at night alone, apart from some parts of the capital, but these days there are more and more women who would refuse to do it in practice. The fact Finland is still among the very safest countries is, in light of that, just a sad indication of the situation in the whole world.

Ryllharu

Thu, 01-10-2019, 04:25 AM

The US in general is pretty well understood if you look at my post about the feminism waves, and well documented in general. Women can do pretty much whatever they want, and the only thing holding themselves back is themselves at this point. But biases still exist, for sure. They're generally minor, but pervasive, and range from being counterintuitive to demeaning.

US Politics is a shitshow and a circus, so I'm not getting into that.

Businesses? Women are pretty well represented. I might be biased because women are really well represented at the Cxx level in my industry.

Our Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard have all been very good at improving female officers opportunities by leveling the playing field for anyone to rise through the ranks without compromising effectiveness or the qualifications. The government has been really good at managing that. Outside of the officers is another story. The Navy is pretty good, the Coast Guard is very good, but the Air Force is infamous for how bad it gets. That said, the civilian sides of each of these branches have a lot of women in management positions.
Can't speak for the Army because I don't know.

So call it 1st and Goal.

edit:
As for personal safety? Well...guns are the great equalizer...

Buffalobiian

Thu, 01-10-2019, 05:52 AM

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/FTF2018_gender_1200.jpg

"In 2017, Australia was ranked 35th on a global index measuring gender equality, slipping from a high point of 15th in 2006. While Australia scores very highly in the area of educational attainment, there is still a lot of progress to be made in the areas of economic participation and opportunity and political empowerment."

I think Australia has largely followed other commonwealth countries as far as advances go.

Medicine is pretty evenly matched as far as workforce participation goes. Some fields are dominated by males (primarily surgical specialities), and surgical specialities are purportedly where the majority of harassment happens (in general, sexual or not).

Female nurses outnumber male nurses probably 3:1 to 2:1 at the very least.

Politically we've had a female prime minister, but she didn't sit full term. That said, no one has since John Howard.

I wouldn't have advised walking the streets at night for any of the 30 decades I've been alive. Inner city is alright because of the number of lights and people still around at that time, but in suburbs I'd definitely advocate for a car.

Assertn

Sun, 01-13-2019, 03:31 PM

Is this it? The last active thread here is a rape and morality thread?

Kraco

Sun, 01-13-2019, 05:14 PM

Is this it? The last active thread here is a rape and morality thread?

I see. It took rape and immorality to make Assertn return.

Assertn

Sun, 01-13-2019, 06:23 PM

I see. It took rape and immorality to make Assertn return.

I show up from time to time after watching a dope one piece episode, but I'm not going to just respond to myself, lol.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-13-2019, 07:55 PM

This was just an offshoot of discussions in, believe it or not, the anime threads.

KrayZ33

Tue, 01-15-2019, 08:43 AM

I'll include here the (hilariously frustrating) interview between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman here addressing this (wage gap discussion happens around 5mins in):

*gasgpiabspgasgsga* - this is frustrating!!! That woman puts so much shit into his mouth, it's unbelievable. And she is also a little bit dense.

That whole gender-pay-gap discussion doesn't make sense anyway. The easiest argument would be that companies would never pay more than necessary if they get the same work and traits for less. Capitalism doesn't care about gender, it's all about the money.

It's even easier to see in physical jobs like consturction or logistics... women are required to carry/lift less, *by law*, so they are basically doing a different job by "design" even though it's in the same "category" when you look at the pay.
So why wouldn't someone demand more money, or why wouldn't be a boss willing to pay more, when he gets more/something different/something he needs that he can't get out of the other sex.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 01-15-2019, 10:22 AM

Women by law carry less stuff in Germany? That's amazing. I've never heard of that in Australia.

Kraco

Tue, 01-15-2019, 12:58 PM

That whole gender-pay-gap discussion doesn't make sense anyway. The easiest argument would be that companies would never pay more than necessary if they get the same work and traits for less. Capitalism doesn't care about gender, it's all about the money.

I used that "companies never pay more than necessary" as a counter-argument in high school when a female student gave a presentation about equality and the gender gap. Somehow my argument wasn't too well received, no matter how neutrally I put it. Already back then there were people who couldn't handle any feedback that didn't directly support their simplistic views.

Still, like I said in my earlier post, the pay gap is easier to solve when the job title is same, and a lot has been solved already there. However, it's not so easy when you look at the average salary of all the women and men in the whole working population of the country. Then it's usually more evident that men are more often in better paying jobs, women in jobs with a lower salary, or men earn more due to different kinds of extras, like working more overtime. At least over here, but the situation could be totally different in other countries. This is quite an ambiguous issue. In the first place it's difficult to see what should be done about it, how, and where exactly. It would be impossible to have every profession have even roughly 50% men, 50% women, and then even all the variables, like women staying longer at home to look after small children.

KrayZ33

Tue, 01-15-2019, 01:37 PM

Women by law carry less stuff in Germany? That's amazing. I've never heard of that in Australia.

Yes - though "by law" I mean it's more or less intertwined with the "duty of care" your employer has.
It's not like there is a paragraph in the legal code, but I'm pretty sure that was obvious

here's a guideline (Swiss Confederation), this is for "occasional lifting/moving". I remember seeing a similar chart back in professional school (I think that is the correct english term for that school)

---Age -----------Male-----Female-
14 to 16 Years ---≤ 15 kg --≤ 11 kg
16 to 18 Years---≤ 19 kg --≤ 12 kg
18 to 20 Years ---≤ 23 kg --≤ 14 kg
20 to 35 Years ---≤ 25 kg --≤ 15 kg (seriously, do people know how fucking annoying it is to lift 25kgs when you can't even grab the thing properly?)
35 to 50 Years ---≤ 21 kg --≤13 kg
Over 50 Years ---≤16 kg --≤ 10 kg

When you have to deal with this for more than 4 hours a day, I think it was somewhere around ~12kg vs 7kg. (so basically an increase of 70%). That means a male employee is under less harsh guidelines and can do "more" depending on the job. As silly as that may sound, that might even be the difference a company needs so that it may not need to modernize it's packing area for example.

This is a part out of the regulation in Germany (that is dedicated to handling/lifting weights at work)

"Section 3
Delegation of tasks
When delegating tasks involving the manual handling of loads where there is a risk to the
health and safety of workers, the employer shall take account of the physical capability of the
workers to perform those tasks."

So you can see how the first chart and this come together.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 01-15-2019, 02:30 PM

Yeah, I don't recall anything like that here at all.

When I did some hiking we were told to distribute weight such that we didn't carry more than % of our body mass, but that was a safety guideline not related to work performance - and certainly not categorised by sex.

Your above chart is in direct conflict with gender equality IMO.

Ryllharu

Tue, 01-15-2019, 04:10 PM

The pay gap argument as well as the "STE(A)M jobs need more women!" directive jives directly with the 1970s feminist thought that women should be able to do any job they want to do.

If they're choosing lower-paying jobs because that is the type of work they want to do...that's a different problem. Do you pay Early Education teachers the same amount you pay Financial Advisers? Do you pay Physician Assistants the same amount as Surgeons? What about event planners and people in manufacturing fields? Skilled Museum Staff and Chemical Engineers?

Within the same occupation and experience level, they better be paid the same within a standard deviation.

But you do not send underqualified people into jobs that they're not interested in anyway, just to even out the numbers. Might as well go right back to communism where everyone is paid the same regardless of what they do.

MFauli

Sat, 07-25-2020, 05:26 AM

Moderator note:
This post and the next six below it were copy/pasted from a recent discussion on another anime thread.

The gist of prior leadup is something like this:

-This character thought to be evil isn't all that evil.
-Sounds like they started off with good intentions and then did terrible things in the end.
-That's still evil.
-Evil is a subjective social construct. Some stuff is just immoral. (insert cloning, abortion)
-Immorality is a social construct
-Abortion is evil.

Note that the summary above is to provide context and not necessarily an accurate encapsulation of the respective poster's views.

-Buff.
-(Remainder of this post authored by MFauli)

----------------------------------------------------

Well, this is majorly offtopic imo, but abortion is pretty clear cut evil if you don't bullshit your way through it.

Unless you kill the zygote or later on the fetus, it will become a human being, accidents/diseases aside. Pro-choicers only get to claim moral superiority because they choose to ignore that fact, focus on societal issues (women's rights) over biological facts (the "cell clump" as they love to call it is a growing human being and you choose to kill it) and silence every opposition by screaching "misogynist!".

You can ignore all religious bs in all of that. From a scientific pov, pro-choice is evil, the villains being feminists here. But that can't be said in today's toxic society, so whatever.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 07-25-2020, 01:29 PM

You can ignore all religious bs in all of that. From a scientific pov, pro-choice is evilFrom a purely scientific view, masturbating is evil. Cause every time you do it, you're killing millions of sperm that could have grown into human beings.

MFauli

Sun, 07-26-2020, 03:06 AM

From a purely scientific view, masturbating is evil. Cause every time you do it, you're killing millions of sperm that could have grown into human beings.

No, they couldn't. A sperm by itself would under no circumstances grow into a human being.

KrayZ33

Sun, 07-26-2020, 09:33 AM

abortion is pretty clear cut evil if you don't bullshit your way through it.

No it's not - lets proceed talking about this in the context of the anime now.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 07-26-2020, 07:25 PM

No, they couldn't. A sperm by itself would under no circumstances grow into a human being.It would if you saved it and found a viable egg for it.

If you're not doing that for each of them, you're killing all of those people. You fucking monster.

Point being, your so-called "scientific" cutoff is actually has nothing to do with science and is just your own personal morality.

"This cell isn't a person. Okay, NOW it's a person."

MFauli

Sun, 07-26-2020, 09:47 PM

It would if you saved it and found a viable egg for it.

If you're not doing that for each of them, you're killing all of those people. You fucking monster.

Point being, your so-called "scientific" cutoff is actually has nothing to do with science and is just your own personal morality.

"This cell isn't a person. Okay, NOW it's a person."

No, what you're doing here is an argumentum ad absurdum. But it's easily refuted: A zygote *will* become a full-fledged human being, non-conditionally. A sperm requires lots of conditions, unless we lived in a world where women were readily available to allow themselves get impregnated by any guy who feels like busting a nut.

Again: Pro-choice supporters make up lots of bs definitions and terms to avoid the one central truth: abortion kills a human being.

I would have more respect for pro-choicers if they at least acknowledged that and then tried arguing from there. Of course, that's less pleasant to tell in public, "yes, it's murder, but I believe a woman's right to her body is more valuable than the life of a child".

DarthEnderX

Sun, 07-26-2020, 09:53 PM

No, what you're doing here is an argumentum ad absurdum.So are you. You just refuse to see it.

But it's easily refuted: A zygote *will* become a full-fledged human being, non-conditionally.Blatently false. Countless conditions still haveto be met in order for a zygote to become a fully formed human.

Again: Pro-choice supporters make up lots of bs definitions and terms to avoid the one central truthAgain: You're doing the exact same thing.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-26-2020, 10:57 PM

I do not think masturbation is evil.
I don't think abortion is evil.
You know, I think that there may even be valid arguments for abortion to be extended to POST BIRTH babies.

Let's lay some foundations.
I'm assuming that killing itself is not evil. My argument does not apply to vegetarians.
Actually scratch that, even vegetarians eat plant life, and that itself is killing.

What makes killing animals and humans seemingly worse than killing plants in my opinion, is that the former have some level of self awareness and are able to communicate this with us.
A "soul" if you will, but basically it comes down to them being higher life forms with more advanced nervous systems, and thought processes plus communication ability to go with it.

So we think "These things (animals and humans) seem to know they're living, and it'd be bad to end that for them."

I'd say that killing humans is more taboo than animals mainly because we display a higher order of the above again compared to animals.
I'm not in the sanctity school of thought that considers humans superior simply because they carry human genes, or are of the genetic group called Homo Sapiens.

If the above thought processes haven't turned you off this post completely, what happens when you introduce a human, or cell that isn't capable of thought yet?

DEX mentioned sperm. And would certainly NOT argue that if you stomped on my chopped off finger that you'd be murdering my bone cells of their otherwise long and happy life.
(Note: sperm have a limited lifespan too in the testicles so they die and get recycled anyway when you don't jack off but we'll leave that for now).

Later on, sperm joins ovum, and now you have a bunch of cells which don't think, feed off another entity, and pretty much fits the definition of a parasite.
Is this living thing, incapable of thought or any higher function sacred? To the point where its rights trump that of the established human carrying it?
Because really that's what it comes down to - killing babies aside in abortion, it's about whose rights matter more. And what's so special about this organism that it has rights in the first place?

Babies soon post birth aren't all that different to those prior, mind you. Their nerves are still undeveloped. They have very limited thought process.
So if you were to "abort" this baby 1 week after birth compared to 14 weeks gestation, what's really changed?

The same applies at the other end of the time continuum.
We lose brain function when we get old. Some don't even seem to be able to communicate or show any signs that they comprehend the concept of life. Keeping someone alive on life support indefinitely (until pressure injuries and infections ultimately take them) is possible with modern medicine.

Food for thought. If you do not believe that humans are superior simply because of genetics, then there's something else that factors into it. Which factors are those? And what happens when they don't apply to our entire lifespan?

shinta|hikari

Sun, 07-26-2020, 11:12 PM

To me, human existence is about logic and beauty.

Necessity and aesthetic, if you will.

Logically, morals, right or wrong, they all mean nothing. It is merely a system that we need to help us survive, such as helping each other, empathy, fairness, etc. None of that means anything outside of the human race. Other organisms don't have morals, but they do have instincts and evolutionary survival tools. In a sense, our logical thinking is our primary resource to survive, just like claws, fangs, poison, sheer resilience, served other organisms.

Aesthetic is another thing only humans observably have. We like art, beauty, and a lot of other abstract concepts. Morals also derive from this. We arbitrarily choose/accept what is pleasing to our perceptions depending on culture, era, and environmental factors. Samurai saw value in death. Other cultures value the individual, others the collective. None of it is "correct". There is no right answer. It is relative to the conditions. At times, this aesthetic is also fueled by necessity. The samurai valued death because otherwise, the noble families wouldn't choose to fight at all, and their society would collapse.

As for the abortion issue, I really think it's just a matter of aesthetic without necessity. Does it really affect humanity in the long run? Not at all. We don't abort enough babies to affect our future survival or our comfort/prosperity. And we probably never will.

It's not a priority.

Food for thought. If you do not believe that humans are superior simply because of genetics, then there's something else that factors into it. Which factors are those? And what happens when they don't apply to our entire lifespan?

This intrigued me, so I wanted to reply.

I don't believe humans are superior because of genetics. We are superior because we are proven superior. We subjugated every other organism (coronavirus pending, if viruses are even considered organisms) on Earth. The value of every other creature under our control is decided by us. That is fact. Vegans, meat lovers, etc. are all just using that privilege to play a game of aesthetics (because we can still eat meat while reducing climate change drastically by just not being fucking gluttonous).