Hai to Gensou no Grimgar

[Kraco]

http://i.imgur.com/3aMPSaR.jpg

"When Haruhito awakens, he's in the dark. He doesn't know where he is, why is he here, and where he came from. Around him there are several men and women who have the same circumstances. Haruhito and his companions find themselves in a "game-like world" called Grimgar and must form a party, cooperate, and learn new skills to survive the harsh environment together." -ANN

Genres: adventure, fantasy
Links: AniDB (https://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=11712) | ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=17732) | Official (http://grimgar.com/)
Subber: HS






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Thought Overlord presented a too OP MC? Then this show is for you: The main characters can't beat a single goblin grunt even when ganging up on it.

These kind of shows are now popping up like mushrooms after a rain. Humans from our world suddenly finding themselves stuck in a game world. There might be some differences here and there, like in this show they don't actually have solid memories of their origin, only they sometimes catch themselves thinking weirdly or using weird words. And they are pitifully weak. Actually there was another bunch who gathered all the capable guys leaving the dregs for the MC group. Since I'm usually for strong MC (or to be specific determined MCs), I found myself initially thinking it would have been nicer to watch the progress of the other group, but in the end these weaklings did start to grow on me.

This series isn't going to make anybody go all wow like Overlord, but it was quite entertaining and the characters varied. It's hard to imagine these folks saving the world (or destroying it), but I hope they will achieve something and it won't all be trying to beat their first goblin.

I'll keep watching for now.

[shinta|hikari]

Only one thing is keeping me watching:

Waki!!!

The proportion of the girls' onscreen time vs. waki exposure is excellent, and it is obviously intentional. The part where the mage equipped herself is perfect proof.

[neflight86]

This was a pleasant surprise. I typically zone out really quickly on MMO shows, but this one had me from almost the outset. Humanizing monsters, a very likable underdog main cast, a good enough twist (wiped memories of the 'real world'), and what felt like above average animation shot this toward the top of my weekly anticipation. No tortured angst at the unfairness of the situation, possibly because of the memories missing. People banding together and living smart without silly drama. Good pacing and balance between exposition and dialogue with almost no technical jargon. In short, this show is so far skipping the 'bad parts' I expect from this genre. Highly recommended if you enjoy MMO stuff with a twist.

[MFauli]

The only way I will be able to accept the magician girl calling herself "fat", is, if her irl self is truly fat and she´s subsconcsiously remembering that. Otherwise it´s entirely ridiculous and will probably cause another generation of girls grow up with anorexia lol.

The first episode lacked any high points, so that was bad. I also think the current group of heroes is way to at ease with each other. There´s just no conflict, no strong characters that keep grinding each other. The "I can sense flat/big chested girls" guy and the "see how im casually aiming my bow at you" girl were the only scenes that implied something else.

This aside, this anime kinda suffers from its heroes´ young age. Dunno, but it´d be more interesting if we had a group of peole the age of that Renji guy or like the sexy thief teacher.

Anyway, will keep watching. I LOVE those settings ("real life people find themselves in fantasy world"), so this is a non-brainer.

One thing that kept bugging me during the last scene, though: When those goblins are THAT intelligent and social with each other, what gives the heroes the right to murder them? Shouldn´t the first try to make friendly contact? These didn´t look like evil creatures, devoid of emotion. Weird.

[NeoCybercoin]

HS Episode 2 (https://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=775794)

Man these guys need to learn teamwork. And Ranta really needs to learn some common sense. But I really did like that this really shows they have never ever killed anything before.

[Kraco]

Holy shit those guys are unbelievably weak in every possible way. I felt pity for the goblin. It was practically torture with how slowly they were killing the poor creature, despite it being 6 vs 1. They should forget goblins for the time being and concentrate fighting some pesky mudcrabs and above all training until they can actually do something consistently. They are going to lose members from their own party sooner or later if they continue like this.

[shinta|hikari]

They should start fighting each other.

EDIT: Finally watched the episode.

Am I the only one that thinks this show is as slow as hell? Literally almost nothing happened in the last 2 episodes. We just get Ranta mouthing off and them (almost) failing to kill a goblin again in this episode too. These two episodes could've fit into 1, or this one could've been added to the next. The musical scene was extended way more than necessary. The only meaningful scene in it was the love triangle between the two ladies and Manato.

[Kraco]

You aren't the only one; probably 90% of the audience thinks the same because that must be purely intentional. I'd be strange if this show still intends to tell some grand story like most fantasy, but if it doesn't, then it makes sense as a stylistic choice. It even fits the theme of these people being so weak that they prefer to idle most of their time instead of searching for stronger monster to slay. What doesn't make sense is that they never train. Their lives depends on their skills in battle, yet we don't see them training those skills. The other girl should be shooting arrows like crazy considering she can't hit anything, but instead she's wandering around the town.

The lack of exercise is the only thing I find hard to forgive in this series, as I already accepted the ridiculous initial (or permanent) weakness. Even the ultimate series of a relaxed atmosphere, Aria, is full of nothing but training. The girls are doing it all the time, pretty much whenever they can, even if they still make it look all soft and fluffy (and empty-minded).

[shinta|hikari]

SAO slice-of-life version.

[NeoCybercoin]

Yeah that's what I thought. It's basically a slice of life kinda show. Only in a RPG setting. One of em needs to die for them to get their shit together I suppose.

[shinta|hikari]

This needs a lot more waki to keep me watching if the nothingness continues.

[MFauli]

I actually wonder if this show has the balls to kill of one of the party members. If so, I can see two fitting candidates: Either the thief guy, who has sorta been made into this anime´s main hero, which also means that he´s incredibly bland. He doesn´t have an specialites about him, so killing him off would cause drama, but without a functional vacuum. The other choice would be the priest, who´s kinda the father-figure of the whole group. No idea how they´d compensate the loss of their healer, but it´d make sense from a personality point of view.

As for ep 2: Yes, it turned out to be too little in terms of story. I actually LOVED the musical scene, it wasn´t too long either. There was also enough action. What I´d really have love is just a couple of sentences of exposition towards the end. Stuff like "Legend says there´s a door to another world on that red moon, and only those who save this world are granted access" or "Little did we know that no goblin is ever left alone in death". Really, just SOMETHING to look forward to, to think about.

And yes, they´re all super incompetent. I guess we have to put it on their lack of experience in terms of killing, yeah. But still ... the biggoron sword guy should have stopped his shitty stabbing and instead made one precise swing. The witch´s magic is apparently useless, just pushed the goblin a bit. Our thief hero is actually way overpowered, being able to defend, even attack with just his short knife. Even the healer went out of his way and entered close-combat.

I just have no idea HOW they´ll get stronger. There´s no indication of typical virtual world-elements. No levels, no skills, etc.. Even if they learn "skills", it doesn´t make them physically stronger, faster and more durable. Curious to find out how that´s done, because, by the heavens, no millenium of team work training will allow them to kill something like a dragon.

[NeoCybercoin]

Ep 3 is out.

Well it's good that they are getting a bit better. Seems their teamwork and weapon proficiency has gone up. The both the mage and archer can actually hit something now. We find out that learning new skills don't just come to them. They have to pay to get them. Most likely through their own guilds. And I am guessing something is gonna happen to Manato next time.

[MFauli]

Less plot than in this episode and this anime would be clinically dead. wtf

This sort of pacing would be sorta okay, if this was a 52+ anime. Since I dont assume this to be more than 13 eps, the lack of meaninful events is frustrating. Turning out to be one of the biggest disappointments of this season atm.

Seriously, spending so much time on the whole girl stalking shit? :/

[shinta|hikari]

I think they simply don't have enough material available to use if they go any faster. This might be the case of bad planning and rushing an anime adaptation when the source hasn't matured enough.

[MFauli]

Meanwhile Im still waiting for season 2 of Rideback :/

Also fucking animate the rest of Claymore and Gantz >_<

[Kraco]

Ho... I wonder if Manga-Updates' information is true and this only has a single volume in Japan. That would certainly explain it, although it would be beyond strange if the source wasn't very slow as well. The MCs are still miserable after three eps. This is truly taking too far the concept of throwing ordinary people into a fantasy world. Only Ranta seems to have any drive for adventure and battle, but he's an idiot. The rest are obviously doing it because they need the little money they gain to survive at all. That's the worst recipe for development and great deeds.

I'd actually like to see one of these stories with such a twist that a single character out of the bunch would turn evil instead of going the traditional hero route. Like become a necromancer or something. The story could switch back and forth between the good guys and the evil one. It would give some fresh flavour to this setting.

[shinta|hikari]

No more waki... This just went to the bottom of my watch list. At least it's still there.

These volunteer soldiers are evil. These goblins are separated from their group, sleeping, and then they suddenly get stabbed and pummeled to death. Have we ever seen a goblin attack humans with the same maliciousness?

[Kraco]

These volunteer soldiers are evil. These goblins are separated from their group, sleeping, and then they suddenly get stabbed and pummeled to death. Have we ever seen a goblin attack humans with the same maliciousness?

It's pretty standard to attack sleeping opponents in RPGs as well. Nothing strange about it. It's also why military camps must have lookouts in RL. What comes to the case in this show, was it the goblins who claimed that big city from humans? If it was, then they certainly should be expecting a retribution. And even if they weren't the ones, they are still living in a former human settlement. I reckon the goblins are depicted like that for the exact reason of making the adventurers' life look harder in this show. Especially with the slow and gruesome death of the first goblin. Nothing is glorious in this show (except maybe Shihoru's body).

[MFauli]

And I still wonder how they´ll get stronger. They still cannot fight more than 1 Goblin at a time. What will they do when a, say, Stone Giant appears? (Making up shit, no idea if such enemies exist in this series) What can they do? They´re too weak for any real MMORPG enemy. Even if they buy some more skills, it won´t enhance their base stats.

[shinta|hikari]

Maybe their base stats are actually already increasing as they fight, we just can't see it.

[NeoCybercoin]

I wouldn't say they are stronger...they are more efficient with their methods and weapons. That does go a long way.

[shinta|hikari]

How would you know that though? Maybe like skills, their ATK damage plainly increases as they level up. It's just not visibly displayed in a stat box like in SAO. The Vice condition for demon summon reeks of RPG mechanics.

[MFauli]

The fact they have to buy new skills, however, is very game-y.

And the problem I have with "efficiency" is that it might work against goblins and other smaller enemies ... but when you fight something like a dragon, you have no spiel to try things out. You need the stats to allow for even a chance at victory.

[Kraco]

You seriously expect these folks to fight a dragon? Not in a million years. Plain old ogre would be far too much for them to even dream about.

Of course they have got stronger already. They can routinely beat lone goblins. Their first fight against a single goblin was beyond pitiful, but now they make short work of them. What exactly got stronger about them is semantics. But since they have been walking and running a lot plus fighting with their gear on, they probably have built some muscles and dexterity. Needless to say, their fighting skills have improved as well, which makes it a small miracle they all survived the fights considering they never train. If they really want to challenge bigger groups or tougher monsters, they ought to start training, that's for sure.

[shinta|hikari]

That's what Mfauli was getting at. If stats actually increase like a game, they WILL eventually be able to slay dragons. They just need to grind enough and fight gradually stronger enemies.

However, if this is indeed a real world type scenario where the human body limits what they can do, then yeah, dragons would require ballistas and entire armies to defeat.

[Kraco]

That's what Mfauli was getting at. If stats actually increase like a game, they WILL eventually be able to slay dragons. They just need to grind enough and fight gradually stronger enemies.

However, if this is indeed a real world type scenario where the human body limits what they can do, then yeah, dragons would require ballistas and entire armies to defeat.

Nah. This already isn't a real world type scenario since there's magic and some other stuff we haven't seen. However, I have a feeling this is closer to a real world scenario than many jollier fantasy in the sense that some people have more potential than others. The original bunch of waking people split in two, and the other group already earned enough money in a few short days to promote themselves, whereas this MC group of lesser people were struggling to simply feed themselves. Although I'm inclined to think it's as much a problem of attitude, but sheer (lack of) talent probably plays a role as significant. After all, talent is only fostered by a suitable attitude. I have repeated it to death, but their lack of training is also a matter of attitude and keeps them much weaker than they'd need to be.

[shinta|hikari]

So your stance is basically that this world has no stats, right? I'm not entirely sure with how you answered.

In a world with game stats, physical strength and speed are determined by numbers. Stats are boosted by exp or training, so talent plays little part on limiting that parameter. Talent and attitude will affect the speed they level up, but it won't do a thing about the stat cap.

That means if they keep slaying goblins, they will eventually get stronger and be able to beat much stronger enemies. In a more realistic scenario like you illustrated, some people will NEVER be able to beat anything beyond what their genes allow.

[Kraco]

We don't know yet that much. What we do know, though, that in the beginning there were much stronger and much weaker people waking up in the tower. If you took random joes and jolies from the street, it's likely some of them could kick more ass than others, for various reasons. So, we do know all of these folks didn't start as equal level 1 n00bs. That's pretty much all we do know. Being able to buy skills doesn't mean much. You could do that in our world as well. Like take a first aid course or a language course.

However, since they don't have consoles, and in fact they wouldn't even remember any fancy game mechanisms from their original world (since all they remember are random words), it's safe to say their progress can't really be measured in experience points or numerical attribute and skill points.

I actually prefer this way.

[NeoCybercoin]

Ep 4 is out.

We still don't know how they learn the skill but they can properly use it. They just need to get used to actually using it in battle. I think that after the next episode things will go a bit faster.

[David75]

And their struggle now has meaning/form with the loss they just had.

[MFauli]

Nice, they actually dared killing of someone, and as I said, it would be either Manato or the thief guy.

But this is where it´s weird again: So they learn skills like in a videogame. But that arrow kill ... HOW would "being stronger" help you here? There´s no system in place to guard you from such sniper shots, so from now on, it´s absolutely scary because you have to take into account insta kills all the time. And even a really strong character from a strong group would be vulnerable to such a shot.

It´s weird.

[David75]

When watching, you can think of ways agaisnt such kills:
Spells and skills to react to the arrow quickly enough, or have it miss, or have light yet strong armor in key places, or spirits/demons protecting or warning you.
Also in that case he didn't die immediately, but running around and delayed action probably helped in the conclusion.
The others were clueless in how to deal with the situation.
It felt as if they ran far too long when they weren't even followed. Instead of assessing the enemy mouvements and regroup at the right time and try to guard Manato and someone to help him.
Even Manato didn't react quickly enough. I'm pretty sure the other mage could've help finding ways to help him reach that difficult place.

Manato's loss is showing how noob they are to that world. And yes, they spent too much time in a dangerous place, becoming sitting ducks.

Edit: and it was more of a one shot kill, than an instakill. Manato had quite a lot of time before dying. Time they didn't use efficiently to find a solution

[shinta|hikari]

The moment they mentioned that their priest was their vanguard, I knew Manato was doomed.

Arrows can be blocked by armor, but priests wear robes. Healers should always be kept in the safest place, and the party should always keep items to heal the healers. Those are RPG basics.

But this was expected too. The male to female ratio of their party was ridiculous for a shounen LN. Now they are gonna recruit a cute girl priest and Haruhiro can now NTR the dead Manato by screwing all the girls.

[Kraco]

RL has no magic or RPG elements but we still have an unlimited amount of skills one can learn. Like has been said numerous times before, these folks had next to no combat skills. If combat didn't need skills, there would be no military training in the world and everybody would fight like the pitiful Isis fighters. Of course in anime in general people sneaking around, apparently practising stealth, are more often than not blabbering incessantly, yet it myseriously brings forth no consequences whatsoever with the enemies never hearing anything even in the middle of the night. The same goes for a number of other related skills.

I'd bet this group was always going through the same places in that same big former human city, leaving behind corpses of goblins and doing little to hide their presence and tracks or make themselves more unpredictable. Furthermore in all the episodes so far we had seen the goblins depicted not as mindless monsters but beings that don't want to get killed and obviously possess a working intelligence of their own. What happened in this episode was thus only a matter of time. Yet this group failed to understand it. Perhaps this was their much needed wake-up call.

The old priest couldn't have had a better voice actor, that's for sure.

[NeoCybercoin]

All priests need to have that voice.

[shinta|hikari]

Not when you wanna do TV parish.

[MFauli]

episode 5 is out
-----------------------

yeah, biggest disappointment of the season. I LOVE the realistic approach, but god, this dreadful pacing.

[shinta|hikari]

3 good things about this episode:
1) Haru breaking down. He was closest to Manato but the one trying his best to keep everyone together. He never had the chance to just grieve, which he deserved more than anyone.
2) Yume actually liking contact devoid of romance.
3) Mary, a priest who actually knows what the hell she is doing.

Everything else was pretty dumb. The pacing is utterly horrible. We did not need 2 bar scenes. We did not need all that emoness from Ranta. Actually, this entire show is much much worse with that character. I have no idea what the creator was thinking.

Manato was an idiot. He took on too much, letting his party spoil and rot. That eventually led to his death.

[Kraco]

This is actually quite amusing if you think of this story as the other side of the common setting. While Renji's bunch is the usual MCs of shows like this, the MCs this time are the nameless folks who die pitiful deaths when the evil attacks for the first time. They are so weak it's not even funny, but like this show said about the goblins, they still struggle to live on.

That being said, it was quite heavy torture to keep watching through the bar scenes of the dudes feeling sorry for themselves. These people lacking money yet still doing nothing but emptying beer mugs shouldn't have enough pride to refuse pity. Somehow they did.

I hope Mary's coldness kicks some sense into them. Or perhaps they will just die one by one.

[NeoCybercoin]

I really liked Yume and Haru's scene.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't get how declining the gold was a smart move. That could've made them a lot safer with new gear and less urgency to hunt, giving them more time to get better. Renji wasn't even being an ass about it.

[NeoCybercoin]

Pride wouldn't let him. 'Just lost a friend/leader and now you are giving us gold as compensation. We don't need your pity!'

Think that was his mindset.

[shinta|hikari]

It's the wrong kind of pride. It's the kind that gets people killed.

The funny thing is, that scene was setup so that viewers are supposed to root for his decision to decline it. It's ridiculous.

[Kraco]

It's the wrong kind of pride. It's the kind that gets people killed.

The funny thing is, that scene was setup so that viewers are supposed to root for his decision to decline it. It's ridiculous.

It's not such a simple situation. Generally speaking giving money to people who are wallowing in self-pity and drowning their sorrows in alcohol in a bar isn't necessarily a smart move. They would just keep drinking all the more and longer instead of being forced to sort out their problems. I don't think Renji had any such thoughts but was just genuinely feeling sorry for them, but this time it seems like the incident served as a wake-up call for those dudes. Their pride told them that they still need to keep pushing forward just like they had before the death. Or all the more so with Manato the overachiever dead.

If Renji really wants to help them despite everything, he might consider simply creating a mission for them and giving a really good (but not blatantly crazy) reward for pulling it off. But then again, maybe he doesn't need to do anything anymore.

[shinta|hikari]

The right thing to do is grit your teeth, accept the money, feel mortified by doing so, and use that to get back on your feet and get better.

Pride is a good thing, just not when it exposes you to needless danger and gets you killed. Everything has limits, as well as a time and place. I'd feel a lot more respect for Haru if he went over to Renji and told him he was only borrowing the gold piece and will return it once he gets richer.

The problem is, if these guys were that smart, they'd be in Renji's group already.

[MFauli]

I'd feel a lot more respect for Haru if he went over to Renji and told him he was only borrowing the gold piece and will return it once he gets richer.

Agreed.

Sorry if I asked that already, but: Is this a 12 episode-only anime or will there be a second cour?

i guess the thief will become their new leader, but it´s not looking good right now.

[shinta|hikari]

He's the best bet they have. Everyone else is just an herbivore or self interested.

[MFauli]

1. "A herbivore, not "an".

2.) LOL, I´ve never heard that term being used as an insult. Will keep it in mind :D

[shinta|hikari]

It depends on how you pronounce (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080409181430AApRfa2) the word.

And that's not how you quote properly.

I fixed it for you:
"A herbivore," not "an."

It's a Japanese insult for men (people?) who are not sufficiently assertive.

[MFauli]

Really, that´s a Japanese insult? Can you post the Japanese translation? I´d like to learn it. Just came back from my first Japanese test at uni an hour ago. Time to learn something new lol

[shinta|hikari]

It's a modern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men) term. Based on this article, it seems limited to men, so I can't really call the two useless girls herbivores, though that distinction in itself is a bit sexist. Even women could use more assertiveness depending on the person and situation.

[Kraco]

I'd feel a lot more respect for Haru if he went over to Renji and told him he was only borrowing the gold piece and will return it once he gets richer.

Yeah, that would have been quite a good solution to it. Looking at the amount of empty mugs on the table, I'm not sure if it could have been possible, though. People aren't exactly getting smarter the more they drink.


The problem is, if these guys were that smart, they'd be in Renji's group already.

They aren't in Renji's group because Renji picked all the good ones. These are the bottom of the barrel types. In Renji's group they would be long dead, every single one of them. It would actually be interesting to know what sort of monsters Renji's bunch kills for work, but it must be at least the bigger and meaner goblins that made short work of the MC group, if not something still more dangerous.

[shinta|hikari]

That's what I meant.

[neflight86]

I actually enjoyed both bar scenes and the pace they are taking with adjusting to the loss of a member. Minato was mentioned probably more times than when he was alive, and I could feel a gravity with his passing because they took the time to have a prolonged after struggle. Its ironic that he seems to have gotten a better send off episode than most better developed characters in other series ever do.

I hope they warm up to the new cleric.

[shinta|hikari]

Despite the number of times he was mentioned and how you liked those scenes, you still misspelled Manato's name.


/jk

[MFauli]

If only he had used his hiraishin no jutsu

[neflight86]

Oops, forgive my negligent fact checking. I might as well mention that it is nice that they touched on clerics generally not being vanguard material. Is Mary being unreasonable/uncooperative or just conforming to the meta standards of this world?

[shinta|hikari]

Mary is perfectly logical (and hot). Their party is the unreasonable one.

[NeoCybercoin]

Ep 6 is out.

And ya know what. I really like the show.

[Kraco]

I thought she had lost her whole team, but I guess it's a bit more realistic it wasn't all of them. This way it makes more sense she got away alive, rather than managing to escape all alone. But then again, I wonder if that dude was so right with his analysis. If she was thinking like that, then she wouldn't have joined the MC party all. No doubt she has some hesitation, but I think her current personality is explained by two things: She doesn't want to make the same mistake again, so she won't overexert herself nor make the whole team go beyond their abilities thinking the healer can fix everything, and on the other hand she doesn't want to become friends with the new team so that even if some of them die, she won't be as sad as she was when losing her good friends in the original team. It would be more like losing business associates; a regrettable thing, but it happens.

Considering her old personality, it's only a matter of time, though. Not to mention sitting alone at home doing nothing but feeling regret in the darkness isn't all that fun. Every time she gets emotional, whether it's annoyed or just a little bit satisfied, she's losing her detachment.

And yeah, I also think they are normal sized. Must be only the company she's keeping that might make them look smaller, but only relatively.

[NeoCybercoin]

Though I think in the end Ranta will be the one to break her out of her shell since he tries to hold back against her but just can't.

[shinta|hikari]

I just want Ranta to die already.

Shihoru I'm sick of. Without waki, she is absolutely nothing, even in combat. Chippai for the win.

Haru is making good progress with Mary. Anyone familiar with VN kuudere routes understands this fact. And don't forget that Manato, Mary's male version, had the hots for Haru. It's inevitable Mary falls for him too

What isn't making good progress is this fucking story. Did they really need to repeat Mary's attitude problem again in this episode? That flashback could have ended halfway and placed around midway of the episode. Did they really need to add that spiritual Manato scene? We already know he wanted Haru as the next leader two episodes ago. We already know Haru doesn't want that since episode 1. WE ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THIS EPISODE EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING FLASHBACK.

They are really milking their content here.

[Kraco]

Oh, the LN this is based on actually has 7 volumes out. I was looking at the manga situation earlier, which was of no consequence obviously. They truly are stretching this for no good reason. Unless the novels are as terrible and we have actually been "speeding" though half of them already.

Ranta annoys me as well, but it's fine. This show is so lethargic even an idiot is welcome...

[MFauli]

Disregarding the god-aweful pacing:

- WHY cannot they communicate properly with with each other? All of what´s currently going on is a non-problem. Mary being a stuck-up emo-cunt who refuses to tell them her reasons ("I´m not healing every little scratch, so I have enough MP left for when we´re in real trouble." - "Oh, that´s so responsible of you, Mary. We never even thought of that!"; "I´m sorry that I´m this distant, but my previous party was killed so ..." - "It´s okay, Mary, we get it"), and our heroes snitching around Mary´s back about her past - which is bound to raise more drama ("HOW COULD YOU INVESTIGE MY PAST! THAT´S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU! I HATE YOU ALL!"). It is so dumb. Especially since this anime invests so much time on portraying everything sorta realistic. But it goes full-anime in these regards. sigh

- I kinda like Ranta on a conceptional level. He kinda behaves the most realistic. Not like some pseudo-adult that none of them are. They´re teenagers. And Ranta acts like one, so I like that. He´s not the perfect moral entitity that our thief-leader is. BUT: Him asking so loudly and vehemently about ... what happened between thief and bow girl was too embarrassing. And too unrealistic. Seriously, nobody does that. Nobody. If it was just the boys sitting together, then it´d have made somewhat sense. But going all "OMG, TELL ME, TELL ME, EVERY DETAIL! So you grabbed her body - I mean the girl sitting right next to us - and then what? WHAT? DEED YOO FUCK?!"

:|

[Kraco]

They aren't sporting a light music club here. Their very lives depend on their every action and decision, just like they painfully learned. They can't fully rely on a person who doesn't want to communicate with them or give her own opinions on their tactics, other than saying "such a scratch won't kill you, deal with it". If it's like that, they at least need to know why she's like that to be able judge how they should act to make the most out of her. They learned a lot by listening to that story, not only about Mary but also about being adventurers (or whatever volunteer soldiers they are called). Sure, it might be awkward if/when she learns they went to learn it behind her back, but in the end it's her own fault for not talking about anything. Like I said, they aren't in some harmless school club. It's deadly serious business and she was falling short. She might have done better like this in some group of badasses, but these weaklings either need to work together or die.

[MFauli]

Yeah, and now she´s gonna distrust them, if not simply leave. Of course, this is a shitty anime, so she´ll forgive them.

[Kraco]

It seemed to you like she was trusting them to begin with? She's obviously going along for her share of the spoils in order to feed herself. Who knows how long she spent sitting in the dark loneliness of her room brooding the past regrets, spending all the money she earned with her old group until she had no choice left. Honestly, with her attitude she wouldn't have gone adventuring anymore if she could get away without.

Of course that's going to change. Considering how her old personality was, she can't help but become friendly with this new group as time goes by. People don't change that easily.

[lelouch]

This is like the story of SAO but from the perspective of the goons who weren't all-stars like Kirito.

[shinta|hikari]

Only in SAO, they had the option of not hunting and living in town. Here, you starve if you don't kill em innocent goblins.

[lelouch]

I prefer strong / OP mcs, makes shit more exciting. If they combined a strong MC with the realism of killing npcs in this show, it would be on point

[MFauli]

Episode 7


- - - - -


Man, I feel sorry for Moguzo. Yeah, yeah, they´re all chipping together so he can have good armor ... but only, because they intend to throw him at the biggest, most dangerous monsters :/

It´s also so weird when they talk about "levels". We never get to see any game-y systems, yet they´re clearly there, somehow.

And I´d also like to know how exactly the damage system here works. Fighting that wolf monster that killed Mary´s group looks like getting hit once means "you´re dead". You either dodge an attack or that´s it. So I wonder what worth it has to be a "high level character" in that context. Would someone like that still get ohko´ed or can he take several otherwise lethal blows to his body?

[NeoCybercoin]

Good to see results of their grinding Goblins. More skills and armor. Mary slowly opening up.
I am guessing Haru is experiencing Critical hits if such a system is in place.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm thinking that lethal blows are still lethal, but higher levels mean more experience and a stronger body, lowering the chance of incurring lethal blows in the first place.

[Kraco]

You'd think higher level would also equal to more loot and thus better equipment in practice. If they have magic equipment (or some strange metals), it could make all the difference in the world. Big monsters have their natural defence and offence capabilities, humans need to rely on external ones (unless it's a Chinese kung fu story).

I'm glad Mary starts to get better along with them. It's also absolutely true what they said about the unnecessary lines. An occasional joke is a different thing compared to insulting somebody every day, especially considering these guys aren't childhood friends or anything.

[shinta|hikari]

Ranta needs his tongue cut off and fed to goblins, assuming they even wanna eat it.

[MFauli]

Ranta is the only good character in this show. He´s portrayed in a realistic manner unlike all the others. The thief guy is way too empathic. Moguzo needs to find his balls. Shihoru is mentally ill and thinks she doesn´t have big boobs. Bow girl is total yandere.

Ranta is the only guy that says it like it is, while at the same time obviously trying his best not to break down from all the weight that this cruel world continuously puts on him. If the remaining episodes give it enough room, I´d bet that Ranta is the first to have a real emotional outburst, since he´s not a walking trope like all the others in his group.

[shinta|hikari]

Ranta and realistic should not be in the same sentence. A real person who acts like that would get kicked out of any social group immediately.

[Kraco]

I don't remember ever seeing a person quite like Ranta in my life. Perhaps some rude jackasses have got somewhere in the vicinity but not all the way there. The other people are more realistic in that sense. I don't feel like Haruhiro's growth into leadership was unrealistic at all (not counting Manato's bloody ghost). People who have no interest in leadership but are forced into it by circumstances are a dime a dozen. You can hardly call him overly empathetic considering he so slowly started to realise what unity means for a group of weaklings and why Manato destroyed thing by trying too much. Shihoru would be quite realistic if she wasn't so anime beautiful but more plain. Depressed shy girls not happy with their bodies are hardly unheard of.

But then again, this is entertainment so it can't ever be too realistic, lest it loses its entertainment factor.

[MFauli]

Ranta and realistic should not be in the same sentence. A real person who acts like that would get kicked out of any social group immediately.

Yes, but that´s the point. Ranta is a real character who´d see real consequences. All the others are anime tropes. And lol @shy girls not happy with their bodies. Shihoru is a beauty by any standard, so that´s not realistic at all.

Meanwhile, Ranta is like that obnoxious brat you´ve seen somewhere and always hated. That´s how real he is.

[Kraco]

And lol @shy girls not happy with their bodies. Shihoru is a beauty by any standard, so that´s not realistic at all.

You shouldn't be like a journalist who only picks a single sentence and uses it out of context. I said if she wasn't so anime beautiful (because main female characters in mainstream anime are exceedingly rarely not beauties) she would be close to realistic.

[shinta|hikari]

Most obnoxious people IRL actually have a reason they are, like being stronger, smarter, or more popular than others. Ranta is just a loser with a big mouth who everyone in the party tolerates just because they need each body they can get.

To add, most asses are only asses to strangers or people they don't like. Ranta treats his closest friends like trash.

[MFauli]

Most obnoxious people IRL actually have a reason they are, like being stronger, smarter, or more popular than others. Ranta is just a loser with a big mouth who everyone in the party tolerates just because they need each body they can get.

To add, most asses are only asses to strangers or people they don't like. Ranta treats his closest friends like trash.

You just keep describing a realistic person ;P

[shinta|hikari]

I pity you for knowing people like that. Unless you meant yourself, of course.

[MFauli]

I pity you for knowing people like that. Unless you meant yourself, of course.

Man, I hope whenever you marry, it´s a girl that´s always like "ugh, it´s cold, gotta wear my sweatshirt to cover my shoulders"-type of girl.

[shinta|hikari]

That's like the nicest attempt at revenge I have ever read. Are you secretly a nice guy?

Sorry if I compared you to Ranta. Ranta would've gone on an outrageous whine-fest after my jab.

[Munsu]

Just caught up, and I'm really liking this one.

I see no particular problem with the pace in the context of the type of series this is, it is what it is. I'm not going to complain about an action series having too much action you know? It was fairly evident that this was first and foremost a slice-of-life drama series, that's just how it goes.

My biggest beef is that it's repetitive. I would've liked if we'd venture more into what goes on in all the guilds... their training there, and I'm sure we'd get to meet more (and better) characters that way and break-out a bit of the monotone.

All this to say... GIVE ME MORE FUCKING BARBARA!

Thanks.

But yeah, that's really my biggest complaint that we don't explore more areas/issues outside of what they do day in and day out as it regards with goblins with some very minimal exceptions thrown in.

[shinta|hikari]

Repetitiveness is directly related to pacing. They use up so much time to show us the same things over and over and over again, leading the story nowhere.

In fact, I think they used the no-dialogue musical cut-scenes thrice already, if not more, which show roughly the same things. And there are only 7 episodes so far!

[Munsu]

Repetitiveness is directly related to pacing. They use up so much time to show us the same things over and over and over again, leading the story nowhere.

In fact, I think they used the no-dialogue musical cut-scenes thrice already, if not more, which show roughly the same things. And there are only 7 episodes so far!

Not necessarily in the context of what is being referred to, we could be doing other slow aspects in the episode without progressing the story forward, hence the pace remaining slow.

Related, but not interchangeable (which is not your point, but you're putting a lot of the onus on it). Most of the complaints I've seen about pace in this thread seem to be talking more about forward progress of the plot, the episodes taking their time to develop... which I'm all fine with in the context of the genre. I don't think we need to rinse and repeat a lot of what's going on in one episode in various others, particularly when there's plenty of other areas that can be at least glimpsed at, and with the assumption that it occurs it also doesn't mean that the pace would get any faster.

There were complaints of slowness in this series from the get-go, without much of a chance for repetitiveness to really get its claws in.

But meh, not interested in the usual battle of semantics.

I will give you the point though in that the repetitiveness does exacerbate the slowness.

[Kraco]

I don't think many people would find the pacing so terrible anymore if the repetition was removed and replaced with totally new stuff, even if it still didn't advance the bigger story that much. But when you combine slow progress with repetition, it's quite a deadly combination, and it would be a miracle if it didn't annoy people.

[MFauli]

I also think it´s a different experience if Munsu watched all episodes in one go without having to wait a week inbetween each one.

[Munsu]

I don't think many people would find the pacing so terrible anymore if the repetition was removed and replaced with totally new stuff, even if it still didn't advance the bigger story that much. But when you combine slow progress with repetition, it's quite a deadly combination, and it would be a miracle if it didn't annoy people.

I think you're giving people too much of a benefit of the doubt.

As I said, complaints about slowness where there from the get-go pretty much.

But whatever.

[Kraco]

People who complained all the way from the first eps and really meant it shouldn't be watching anymore. I complained quite early, I think, but since I'm still watching, I guess it's not such a big deal after all.

[shinta|hikari]

For my part, I think my main gripe has always been with the repetitiveness. Each time I mentioned the word "pacing," I cited an example of the episode showing the same thing the previous one did, or prolonging a scene that doesn't need to be extended that long.

I love SoL shows, but not when they treat the audience like idiots who can't get the point and must be reminded of things again and again. How many times have we seen them stalk goblins at this point?

To summarize, I wouldn't complain at all if they put in enough new content each episode, even if that doesn't push the plot forward, because let's face it, there is no plot.

[Munsu]

For my part, I think my main gripe has always been with the repetitiveness. Each time I mentioned the word "pacing," I cited an example of the episode showing the same thing the previous one did, or prolonging a scene that doesn't need to be extended that long.

I love SoL shows, but not when they treat the audience like idiots who can't get the point and must be reminded of things again and again. How many times have we seen them stalk goblins at this point?

To summarize, I wouldn't complain at all if they put in enough new content each episode, even if that doesn't push the plot forward, because let's face it, there is no plot.

That's part of my point though... like prolonging scenes, taking their time with things, etc. ARE pretty much staples of slice-of-life drama series of this nature.

Like some of the repetitiveness exacerbates the issue, but intrinsically this show was going to be slow paced one way or another regardless.

Guess my main point was that complaining that this show is slow is a bit disingenuous since these types of shows are intentionally slow, that's part of the "genre" for the most part... so no use.

I do see more validity in complaining about lack of exploration of other aspects of their daily life though irrespective of pace. Like I see you having problem with the musical scenes, which I think is a valid complaint (I'm not a fan of those either), but not really in the context of slowness (even if we agree that it exacerbates the intrinsic slowness of the series). But I do recognize that it's part of setting up the atmosphere, which is a key component for these types of series, so might as well be prepared to deal with it.

[shinta|hikari]

Moving my edits here for visibility:

I just checked where we are in the LN (I haven't read it), and it seems we haven't even finished volume 1 yet. I'm guessing that's why this feels so repetitive and stretched. In text, you can just explain repetition with one line and be done with it. But this show actually goes through the trouble of showing it to the viewers. I'm guessing the 1st volume will end at around episode 8 or 9, which is a bit too much. 3-4 episodes per volume is standard but feels rushed. 6 sounds like a good balance. 9 is clearly too stretched out. This is already a SoL show. There's no need to water down content even further.

A good counter example would be Rokka no Yuusha. The 1st cour actually adapted just the first novel, but it never felt as slow as this. That's because that was an info heavy book with a lot of dialogue and twists. I guess the problem in Grimgar lies in the fact that it is being watered down despite being a slice of life story.

[MFauli]

As for why I´m watching but still complaining: The pace is fucking slow, but it´s not slow necessarily in a bad way on a "per episode"-level. What makes me dislike the slowness is that I know this anime will be done for after 12-13 episodes. Which means we will never get any meaningfull development. Last episode will probably be them becoming good friends with Mary. If we´re lucky, they´re going to kill the wolf monster that murdered Mary´s group. But it doesn´t feel like we´ll ever get to know about why they´re here, how they could return, how the big evil in this world looks like and how it gets defeated. We would need 100 episodes with the current pacing. That´s frustrating. Because I´d LOVE to watch 100 episodes of this, but that´s not what´s going to happen.

[Munsu]

I agree with the issue first and foremost is that we're going to get screwed in the end with an incomplete story. Not going to point this as a pace issue, but just the business model of these guys.

Twelve episodes, sell their LNs, and move on.

[shinta|hikari]

I do believe I'll be reading the LNs after this, so the model does work. Just not on me cause I don't buy the books...

[Munsu]

OVA episode 2.5 preview


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSILROF4GSY

[MFauli]

episode 8 is out
------------------------


The FUCK!
Before I write what I planned to: This last scene was SO bad. Mata ashita. Pause. Pause. Pause. Getting on my nerves. Pause. Pause. Mata ashita. Pause. Pause. Scene finally shifts to endin music. Whoever the director of this anime is must be full of himself to the max. "Look at how artsy I am!" is all I heard while watching the scene. There´s slow pacing and then there´s this. Ugh.

What I wanted to say: I figured out this show´s problem. EVERY episode feels like some sort of epilogue. It was specially obvious this week. Goddam, the ending scene began at around minute 16:00! This anime feels like it is the aftermath of so-me-thing, but we never got to see about that. Instead, week after week, it is this epilogue-kinda presentation. Repeating emotional speeches, little dialogue, scenes where nothing happens except music, etc..

[shinta|hikari]

It's watered down as hell. Again we get a grave scene. Again we get music. Again we get random nothingness. Again we get Ranta ranting (that name CANNOT be a coincidence).

At least there's progress with Mary, who is clearly the main love interest for Hal.

[NeoCybercoin]

What I mostly liked about the beside the action was the fact that it shows that Goblins are intelligent enough to play freakin card and chess games.

[shinta|hikari]

And we have adventurer's killing those guys in their homes. Damn.

[lelouch]

I think a plot-twist will be that the goblins are actually a different faction of Humans who were sent to this world, and these adventurers look like Goblins to them (and vice-versa).

[Kraco]

The goblins are living in ruins and wearing quite rudimentary clothing and armour. I don't think too many humans would like to live like that. Even if they were reborn as goblins, they still would rather yearn to live decently like humans, even if they didn't understand why based on their missing memories. The MCs weren't even totally wiped clean since some remnants of their skills and hobbies remained, just as cooking. So, I think a human reborn as a goblin like this would feel it's not his body but the body of an ugly monster.

[shinta|hikari]

Do they really have to be humans for it to matter? These goblins are sentient beings who are going about their daily life in a ruin, then a bunch of adventurers looking for some cash invade their homes and kill them mercilessly. I haven't seen the goblins attack human towns or even travelers preemptively yet.

[MFauli]

Um, guys, how about this:

The goblins ARE the players. That´s why they´re so relaxed and enjoy the fighting. Meanwhile our "heroes" are actually NPCs.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't think understanding the origins matter. We haven't even gotten past killing goblins yet. The mystery of the world is probably in the 257th episode.

[MFauli]

I don't think understanding the origins matter. We haven't even gotten past killing goblins yet. The mystery of the world is probably in the 257th episode.


Nah, that´s when Haru visits Manato´s grave to lay down some flowers and reminisce the good old time, a 20 minutes scene showing the nearby environment with sad music, no dialogue. Then preview for next episode: Shihoru visits the grave.

[shinta|hikari]

They should've cremated Manato and put him in a jar. That way, they don't even need to go out to do the musical scene. They can do it while cooking lunch or after taking a bath! Then they can carry small vials of his ashes out on battle so they can be all emo before they kill innocent goblins. Musical emo-ness is great, especially in between scenes of silence and falling snow.

[MFauli]

episode 9 is out
-------------------

wow is that bad. first half of the episode literally NOTHING happened. :/

And know what, it´s specially frustrating when that training scene was some genuine interesting anime. But we get it like once per 3 episodes :/

[lelouch]

I'm surprised this world's economy has not yet produced swords for hire -- high level body guards who accompany groups for guaranteed up-front payment. A group wouldn't want to use them everyday but when venturing to a new area it would be a prudent choice

[shinta|hikari]

Good parts:
Wakilicious Thief teacher.
Priestess nape and legs.

Bad parts:
Everything else.

The ground part of the training made no sense. Blatant fan service is better than fake training. Children might try dumb stuff like that, you know, like climbing overhangs with boots instead of bare feet or proper climbing shoes... The only thing dumber than those things is the director for padding everything with nothing+music.

Hal clearly likes Mary, which makes sense. Yume is a dumb country hick, and Shihoru likes a dead guy.

@Lel - It's probably more cost efficient to just kill higher level mobs than risk yourself guarding noobs like this group. I'd personally rather risk my life against a dragon than protect Ranta against himself.

[NeoCybercoin]

Seems Yume enjoys putting herself in danger with that rock climbing of hers.
And how much was 1 gold again? Hundred or thousand silvers?

[shinta|hikari]

Hundred.

It's not really dangerous because she uses a rope and periodic hooks. It's just stupid because she should use better shoes.

[Kraco]

I don't mind watching the developing relationship between Hal and Mary. Good thing I do because apart from Hal's training scene, there certainly was nothing else happening here.

[shinta|hikari]

Mary is so hot. Kuudere's are the best.

But sadistic onee-sans are even better. I wonder what that thief teacher does when she's not training idiots.

[NeoCybercoin]

Dominating the one who pays the most I guess.

[Kraco]

Episode 10 - HS




- - -- - --



Looks like the perfect time for a tactical retreat. Not only is the giant there, but a score of normal ones as well. I feel like these guys are pushing forward a bit too aggressively in any case. They aren't any pros and their group hardly shows any real tactics and teamwork. They occasionally support each other, but it always looks more like opportunism than strategy that purposefully led to that outcome. Not to mention how Hal is such a poor leader. In my opinion he's a poorer leader than Ranta a team member. The dude ought to seek out of the better team leaders in the town and chat with them in depth, to acquire valuable pointers. Considering these guys line of work, it's more than just a little dangerous to purely grow into the role by experimenting.

It seems to me the kobolds should have some better loot stashed away. The heroes should look for such treasures. The first level lesser kobolds might not have much, but even they could have. Moreover, it would need to be hidden, lest the stonger kobolds rob it all. That's indeed the key: the weaker ones can't carry much with them not due to the human invaders but because of their stronger brethren. Humans would kill them anyway, so it wouldn't matter if they were robbed at the same time, but their own kind would just took any possessions, over and over again.

[MFauli]

They *should* retreat, but they won't. This makes for a good final battle to conclude the series. After all, it'd be boring if they only ever engaged in low risk-battles.

There's three important events to happen:

- Defeating Death Spots to avenge Mary´s team mates
- Ranta proving himself to Haru
- Ranta finally summoning that demon he has been going on about every since episode 1

They showed us several stun-spells this episode. I think those will come in handy to focus on the smaller enemies while keeping Death Spot in place.
If I got to choose, it'd be awesome if Ranta fights Death Spots all by himself, proving that there are situations where you gotta have 1-on-1 skills.

[shinta|hikari]

In my opinion he's a poorer leader than Ranta a team member.

You've gotta be kidding right? Haru sucks as a leader because he doesn't have balls, but Ranta belongs to another league of stupid completely. In any realistic situation, a guy like that would've been kicked out of ANY team, unless he's the boss, or the boss's son.

Ranta is a psychopathic (in the worst way) asshole. And that's coming from me, who normally likes psychopaths. It's just that being a psychopath AND an idiot is not a good combination. It leads to events like almost skewering your party leader. Even his reasoning for fighting his "rival" one on one is ridiculous. It's good to try soloing, but it's stupid to do it after strengthening your enemy from a misused spell. It's even stupider to keep shouting while engaging in physical activity. Kiai shouts must be used at the right time, not randomly, or else you just exhaust yourself, as Haru said.

I agree with Mfauli. I hope Ranta goes off and fights Death Spot by himself. Then he can die. Then we can have 2 more funeral episodes. Those are a better watch than Ranta's screen time.

The funniest thing about Ranta is he only acts arrogant in front of nice (weak) people. If confronted by Renji or someone similar, he becomes a pussy. He even backs off when Yume and the others get seriously angry.

[MFauli]

I agree with Mfauli. I hope Ranta goes off and fights Death Spot by himself. Then he can die. Then we can have 2 more funeral episodes. Those are a better watch than Ranta's screen time..

lol

May your wife never take off her sweatshirt. No waki for you!

[shinta|hikari]

But I have hundreds of waki-exposing waifus already.

[Kraco]

Ranta is an idiot, but he's still doing his part in the team, just like he said himself. Hal merely doesn't have the skills or mentality to put him to proper use. Or anybody for that matter. These guys are basically adventurers no matter what they are called. They have different backgrounds and there's nothing uniform in their combat skills or methods. They are fighting for themselves, in order to survice and develop. Hal's problem, like was demonstrated during his useless talk with Ranta in the middle of the night, is that he thinks he's going to be a capable leader when he understands every other member (or rather they all understand each other and become best friends forever) and when they all conform to his view of their roles. That might work in regular armed forces, but it won't work in a band of adventurers. It's a basic amateur error. He's only going to be the capable leader once he gets the team working with what he has got in his hands. That's why I said he should go and get advice from the pros.

This is essentially why episode 33 of Soul Eater (or the corresponding chapter) is one of my favourites in the otherwise goofy show.

[shinta|hikari]

He's not doing his part at all, though. He just claims to.

Almost killing your leader on purpose (as he so proudly claims after the fact) is not doing his part. Trying to solo a berserk enemy out of pride while everyone watches is not his part. Not heeding good advice that may save his life is not his part. Ranting like a dick all the time is not his part.

He is clearly not doing his part.

Part of being in a team is getting along with the others. That's basic. They aren't cogs in a machine. They are people. Ranta is proud of not trying to do that. WTF.

Excluding Ranta, Haru is actually doing okay with the rest of his party. He even softened up the cold Mary. He isn't a good leader (that would be Renji), but no, no amount of rationalizing you do can convince me (or likely anyone apart from Mfauli) that Ranta is a better party member than Haru is a leader.

EDIT:
Now if you mean Ranta can hold his own in combat, then I agree. I think he is probably the most independently capable among all of them. But that makes him a good solo fighter, not team member. A single dick move can get an entire party killed, and let's face it, the guy's a dick. He admits that much himself.

[Kraco]

Ranta is only a better member of the team than Hal a leader because it's relative. Well, maybe that's an exaggeration because at the end of the day Hal did manage to get them back into action and adventuring, so he's not a total failure. I'll admit that much. However, that still doesn't mean much. Ranta could be a better member if Hal could adjust his tactics so that he could use Ranta the only way that idiot can be used. Now he's trying to use him like a regular fighter in his messed up and dysfunctional formation, which only leads to the kind of problems you mentioned: He almost got stabbed by Ranta, more or less on purpose. It's quite clear he can't change Ranta, only a real mofo like Renji could, so he has to change himself, that is, change his own tactics, which foremost would mean not getting in Ranta's way. The guy needs to deal the finishing blow as much as possible due to his dark knight path. It's not something Hal simply can ignore because he doesn't like it.


Part of being in a team is getting along with the others. That's basic. They aren't cogs in a machine. They are people. Ranta is proud of not trying to do that. WTF.

Ranta isn't interested in getting along with the others. But he's clearly interested in working in the team. Hal merely needs to understand this. But he's obsessed with the idea of everybody being friends. Sure, it worked splendidly with Mary, but looking at Mary's merry flashbacks, that was her real personality, while the kuudere one is a result of her PTSD. Ranta's personality is that of a petty scumbag. But he still has got the skills and is following Hal's bigger decisions, more or less.

[shinta|hikari]

You didn't address the issues I enumerated.

Ranta almost killed Haru (intentionally). Ranta doesn't listen to good advice. Ranta doesn't work with the team (he fought solo while others are available to help). Ranta is always an ass. Everyone acknowledges this, including the person himself.

The "could be a better" argument is meaningless. What matters is Ranta vs Haru's value in their respective positions right now.

It's not about personality. It's not about friendship. Even if you pretend, you have to act with a certain level of courtesy to your teammates. That's normal. Not just in fantasy land. Anywhere.

You want Haru to adapt himself to someone like that to qualify as a better leader than Ranta is a party member? That's a completely unfair double standard. Ranta acts like a dick and refuses to get along with anyone, and somehow, he's better at his job than Haru is at his, even after the guy managed to pull together the mopey mess everyone was and even recruit them a healer.

[MFauli]

Ranta is a demon knight. Him almost killling Haru is part of his class.

[shinta|hikari]

I knew Ranta reminded me of someone.

[MFauli]

Lol, I'm sorry that I happen to like unpopular characters. But Zolzal, Ranta, Light or Frank Underwood are more interesting than some smiling shining goody good good.

[shinta|hikari]

Please don't compare Light and Frank Underwood to Ranta and Zolzal...

And how are Light and Frank unpopular?

Still, I'm glad you like those characters too. I was beginning to think you love idiots.

[Kraco]

You didn't address the issues I enumerated.

Ranta almost killed Haru (intentionally). Ranta doesn't listen to good advice. Ranta doesn't work with the team (he fought solo while others are available to help). Ranta is always an ass. Everyone acknowledges this, including the person himself.

In fact I did address the issues, but you are stuck in the same groove as Hal and thus you can't understand it.


The "could be a better" argument is meaningless. What matters is Ranta vs Haru's value in their respective positions right now.

It's not about personality. It's not about friendship. Even if you pretend, you have to act with a certain level of courtesy to your teammates. That's normal. Not just in fantasy land. Anywhere.

All the others in the team consider Ranta an annoying idiot or are afraid of him (although Shihoru is afraid of almost all men). They treat him accordingly. Hal tries to force himself to befriend Ranta because he thinks that's what he's supposed to do in order to a leader worthy of a dead man's shadow. Ranta doesn't seem to care overly much about his treatment. He's probably used to it. He doesn't try to change himself even though he's been told numerous times why the others don't like him. Under such circumstances why do you think anybody would change? If he had a choice, I reckon he would leave the team and find one where everybody else wouldn't hate him or even if they did, the leader was capable to keeping his head cool and make things work professionally.


You want Haru to adapt himself to someone like that to qualify as a better leader than Ranta is a party member? That's a completely unfair double standard. Ranta acts like a dick and refuses to get along with anyone, and somehow, he's better at his job than Haru is at his, even after the guy managed to pull together the mopey mess everyone was and even recruit them a healer.

I admitted getting the team to act once again was a worthy deed. I'm just not sure if that was a sign of excellent leadership per se. He managed to do it by imagining what Manato would have done and because they all simply had to do something or starve to death. He hasn't shown particularly outstanding leadership skills afterwards. Mary merely needed a friend and realise being alone isn't what she wants to be (she was a cheerful girl in the old team). However, Ranta is the only concrete, persistent leadership problem Hal faces, and he seems to be unable to do anything about it. If everything you said was true, he should simply kick Ranta out of the team. That's the easy way, but it's still something a leader needs to be capable of. The harder way would be what I've been telling in a couple of posts earlier. It's in fact so fundamentally difficult that even you can't understand the concept, so it's quite natural a total amateur leader unsure of himself like Hal can't get it either.

[shinta|hikari]

All you said only means that Haru is not a good leader. Of course he isn't. He admits that himself.

From the start, I'm only arguing the ridiculous statement you made: Haru is a worse leader than Ranta is a team member.

In what world is not being able to fix/adapt to a dickhead team member worse than BEING that dickhead team member? I don't understand your reasoning at all.

Let me put it this way since we're comparing job effectiveness:
Will the party be better off without Haru or without Ranta? The answer is obvious.

[Kraco]

The requirements for being a leader or being a random rank and file member are different. Obviously the leadership role assumes a lot more from a person. That's why it's a lot easier to be a bad leader than a bad underling if the roles are forced on people. An incompetent leader can still do well enough if the flunkies are sufficient and show initiative, like Hal manages to handle most of the team, but a poor leader is helpless in front of a bad subordinate. However, the bad subordinate only needs to care for himself and do barely what is expected of him for his own good, just like Ranta is doing. He's killing his share of enemies and isn't shirking from battle. That's the very basic role for him and he is doing it. Being friends with everybody is just added extra.

Sure, the team would be better off without Ranta than Hal. What kind of a question is that? Let me ask you another question: Would the team be better off with or without Ranta's strength in battle?

[shinta|hikari]

Your question is completely irrelevant to your statement. That doesn't compare Haru's and Ranta's job effectiveness at all.

Again, you forgot that Ranta almost killed the party leader. And he doesn't listen to advice that might save his (and as a result his team's) lives. Your basically playing off his dumb antics as something irrelevant, when in reality it's a huge problem for the team, which is why Haru wants to fix it.

Killing his share of enemies and not running away isn't a team members job. A team member's job is to work with and as a team, something Ranta refuses to do. Everyone else does it, in case you forgot.

You said that Haru is a worse leader than Ranta a team member. That means to show their comparative job effectiveness, you have to remove each of them from the team and see how it turns out.

By admitting that the team would be better off without Ranta than Haru, you already negated your own statement. Why? Because a bad leader can do a lot more harm than a dumb member (because a single bad decision will get everyone killed), yet despite that, you say he is more valuable than Ranta.

Let's get back to basics:
Ranta is the PROBLEM. Haru not being able to fix the problem can't mean that he's worse than the problem. The problem is the problem, after all.

You see, my argument is that simple. You added all the frills around it, but that's all I'm saying. What you're doing is setting the bar for a team member dirt low, and setting the bar for a leader ridiculously high.

If you insist on those absurd standards, then whatever.

[Kraco]

Killing his share of enemies and not running away isn't a team members job. A team member's job is to work with and as a team, something Ranta refuses to do. Everyone else does it, in case you forgot.

I don't get it. We have 10 eps of Ranta doing his share of killing goblins and kobolds. That ensures the team has food on their table, a place to live in, and money to use for equipment and training, even occasional entertainment. Yet you say he's not doing his job. He is doing his job. He's merely not doing the job Hal thinks Ranta should be doing. But comparing the existing results and Hal's ideals, which one weighs more? I value the results more.


You said that Haru is a worse leader than Ranta a team member. That means to show their comparative job effectiveness, you have to remove each of them from the team and see how it turns out.

By admitting that the team would be better off without Ranta than Haru, you already negated your own statement. Why? Because a bad leader can do a lot more harm than a dumb member (because a single bad decision will get everyone killed), yet despite that, you say he is more valuable than Ranta.

Nah. You can't remove the leader but you can remove a regular member. You could also remove Mary, Thanks, Shihoru, or Yume, yet the team would still function. So, it's not relevant to ask if removing a random member would matter as much as removing the commander.

What does Hal actually do in practice as a leader? He decides when they go to hunt and when they leave from hunting. He doesn't really coordinate battles at all. The members do it by themselves based on their experience and battle sense. Unfortunately that also means someone like Ranta might semi-accidentally come close to stabbing someone. Like I have said a bunch of times before, a weakling like Hal can't reshape Ranta. Instead he should devise plans that would get the most out of Ranta. But he's incapable of that at least for now. So, he uselessly tries to lecture him.



Let's get back to basics:
Ranta is the PROBLEM. Haru not being able to fix the problem can't mean that he's worse than the problem. The problem is the problem, after all.

A problem in the team is the leader's problem. He has to solve it one way or another if he fancies himself a leader. One solution of course is doing nothing if the team still pulls through (this would mean lowering his standards so that the problem ceases to be a problem). Another solution would be to get rid of the origin of the problem. Hal seems to be unable to do that as well because he wants to be friends with everybody, so he doesn't kick Ranta out. The last alternative would be to accept Ranta isn't going to be his friend and deal with him accordingly, even if it leads to Ranta's death in some tougher battle. That would be Ranta's own choice as well. An associate's death isn't as bad as a friend's death, though.


You see, my argument is that simple. You added all the frills around it, but that's all I'm saying. What you're doing is setting the bar for a team member dirt low, and setting the bar for a leader ridiculously high.

If you insist on those absurd standards, then whatever.

Leader's bar is always higher. Can't be helped. A team member only needs to mind his own picture, the leader needs to see everybody's picture.

[shinta|hikari]

Nice job ignoring Ranta's dumbassery.

Guess it's whatever then.

[MFauli]

Could everybody fap, calm down, and then proceed to discuss? good

[neflight86]

Ep 11


Like I've said before, I'm a sucker for redemption in stories, and Ranta's was handled well, in my opinion. While one part (of me) doesn't want him to die, another knows it would elevate the tension of the show and at least give us an alternative, complicated mourning compared to Manato. Of course that could only be served if there were any plans to continue this series after next week, which is kind of unlikely.

[MFauli]

I´m happy about what happened. Ranta is the best character in this anime, so him getting the spot light at the end was nice. I fully expect him to survive, maybe even defeat Dead Spots. He WILL activate his demon summon, since it was hyped up over the course of the entire show. If it takes this long to go into effect, it´s not unrealistic to be able to defeat a strong foe like Dead Spots.

Now I just hope the others give Haru some shit for leaving a comrade :P

And Shihoru should totally become Ranta´s cumdump, now that he´ll have proven himself a hero. Look at how she grabbed his hand when he offered her help. Totally a couple, I tell you! :P

[Kraco]

This was one of the better episodes. Even the typical Grimgar-slow part in the beginning made sense when the undead appeared. After all, we hadn't seen, especially of late, too much of Mary's old crew, so if the ghouls had simply walked in without such an introduction, the effect would have been a fraction of what it was. The crazed giant kobold was also very nice. Naturally the best part was Ranta's. Like I have been saying, one can be a functional member of a team of adventurers without being all buddy-buddy with everybody else. This episode was a perfect example of it.

I have a feeling Ranta won't die. Of course he still might since this series in general is going for quite a nihilistic or pessimistic view of the life of monster hunters, but perhaps he won't. It just seems to me that between Manato and Mary's past, the old deaths are still carrying their effect, so a new one isn't necessarily needed right now.

[shinta|hikari]

Like I have been saying, one can be a functional member of a team of adventurers without being all buddy-buddy with everybody else. This episode was a perfect example of it.

That isn't what happened though. Ranta actually behaved like a proper team member this time.

Not only did he help his non-friend up to her feet and try to give advice to Haru, he even risked his life to save him.

So either Haru's lecture actually worked, or Ranta is a tsundere. Maybe all Ranta's blathering and dumb ass replies were all just a cover for his insecurities, but he never really meant any of them. Maybe he wants to be friends with everyone but is just too clumsy/shy to admit it.

If he really were an ass, he would've abandoned Haru or complained when he fell, but he did neither.

[Kraco]

It's exactly what happened as far as I can see. I have no idea why you think you can't work with somebody unless he's your friend. The world is full of people who do. Armed forces are full of people who risk their lives to save mere coworkers or total strangers, not best buddies.

Of course you might also be correct and he's just a terrible tsundere, but there's little evidence of it yet. Since this is anime, based on a light novel, that's quite a high possibility, but I do hope it's not the case. It would be refreshing if "I'm not here to make friends but work and earn money" was, for once, genuine. If this anime had continued for a longer time, I also wouldn't have minded at all if Ranta had found a bunch of people more like his own dark knight kind and switched groups immediately, becoming friends with those others. That would also have been realistic, just like the extreme difficulty of combat and losing members.

[shinta|hikari]

I have no idea why you think you can't work with somebody unless he's your friend.

I never said this. Sigh. I explicitly noted instances where Ranta behaved very poorly as a team member. I never said he needed to be friends with his teammates. What he needed to do was treat them with respect, which he did in this episode.


Of course you might also be correct and he's just a terrible tsundere, but there's little evidence of it yet.

Except he gave advice and just risked his life to save the guy he was supposed to have intentionally "friendly fired." Plus he didn't seem to mind getting left behind for the team. Plus he helped a fellow member to her feet, something he did not have to do, and is a sign of camaraderie.

In short, Ranta acted completely un-Ranta-like this episode, for some reason or another. Even Haru said so. Heck, I bet everyone watching was surprised when he did. Heck, I'm sure it was intentional by the author...

[Kraco]

Except he gave advice and just risked his life to save the guy he was supposed to have intentionally "friendly fired." Plus he didn't seem to mind getting left behind for the team. Plus he helped a fellow member to her feet, something he did not have to do, and is a sign of camaraderie.

In short, Ranta acted completely un-Ranta-like this episode, for some reason or another. Even Haru said so. Heck, I bet everyone watching was surprised when he did. Heck, I'm sure it was intentional by the author...

I fully disagree. He doesn't like it when somebody comes between him and his prey. That's why he may friendly fire. The others should have noticed that ages ago. The other things you mentioned are normal teamwork. Of course for some matters his degree of teamwork will depend on the level of danger they are facing. When they are hunting some weak goblins or kobolds, he likes to fight alone and especially deal the finishing blow alone because his class requires that. However, when the tables are turned and they are being hunted by an overpowering foe, it makes sense he would rely on the team more. There's no contradiction there. The only problem might be that there has never really been a single scene in this show where those people would have really discussed about their individual goals and roles. Add to that the fact that whenever Ranta opens his mouth, the others will are already sighing and wondering what idiocy they are going to hear this time. So, it's no wonder the team stays more like a lose collection of adventurers than a solid military unit.

Besides, even if he's dark knight, he's still a knight.

[shinta|hikari]

The knight comment makes no sense. Haru is a thief, but he never steals anything.

Well, risking your life to save others is a very selfless act, not something you'd do for someone you don't give a shit about. I'm willing to bet Ranta is just a socially awkward softie, but we'll see.

You gotta admit that most of what comes out of Ranta's mouth is nonsense, so I can't blame anyone for not listening to him.

[NeoCybercoin]

Guessing Rant will survive after being buried and forgotten by the kobolds. And as far as I can remember his 'demon' isn't something people can see but instead tells him where enemies are and that it can take over his body. Think that said that in the earlier episodes. I believe Yume said the demon was nicer than him.

[shinta|hikari]

I remember something like that.

I don't get Haru's plan though. They plan to go around to save Ranta, but isn't Ranta cornered by Kobolds right there? What would going around to another well help?

What they should always bring with them is a rope... You know, like the one Yume uses for her hobby.

[MFauli]

You gotta admit that most of what comes out of Ranta's mouth is nonsense, so I can't blame anyone for not listening to him.

Disagree. Ranta says things that a real person would say. Admittedly, he doesn´t know what´s really going on, but I´d say going out to slay monsters every day, accepting that fate, and only thinking about slowly getting by with the money you earn from doing that, is more nonsense than talking about girls and boobs and whatever.

Also, as I said, I totally foresaw Ranta doing all he did in this episode, so you´re wrong here, too :P

[Kraco]

You gotta admit that most of what comes out of Ranta's mouth is nonsense, so I can't blame anyone for not listening to him.

Yeah, it's naturally fully his own fault that the others aren't willing to listen to him, as he's always talking shit and pulling off stupid stunts. However, these guys are still rather weak, even if not miserably weak anymore, and in order to really get significant rewards from their hunting trips, they need the team. While it's annoying to listen to Ranta, the others should realise that as long as he's a member of the team, their combined total strength is much higher. Thus they should make an occasional effort to listen to him to understand why he does the silly things he does and what they could do to adjust their own behavior accordingly and what Haru should do to adjust his plans and tactics accordingly. I'd imagine if the others purposefully dropped their condescending and despising attitude for a moment and asked him a few things seriously, without trying to advice him, he would also answer seriously. There's no way he wouldn't enjoy talking about his own way of fighting and how he wants to fight.

If Haru had seen to this single thing, we would have never had the discussion where I called Haru a worse leader than Ranta is a member.

[shinta|hikari]

While it's annoying to listen to Ranta, the others should realise that as long as he's a member of the team, their combined total strength is much higher. Thus they should make an occasional effort to listen to him to understand why he does the silly things he does and what they could do to adjust their own behavior accordingly and what Haru should do to adjust his plans and tactics accordingly.

Or Ranta, being the minority, could adjust to the team and be less of an ass? Oh wait, he just did that this episode.

[Kraco]

Or Ranta, being the minority, could adjust to the team and be less of an ass? Oh wait, he just did that this episode.

After this many episodes it's clear Ranta isn't going to magically change. He even told Haru in a very direct and straightforward manner that he's not going to change and Haru just has to deal with it. He's minority, yes, but I'm not talking about the others needing to change much. They only need to change how they deal with Ranta during combat. That's it. There's no need to change anything else. Ranta himself hasn't left despite the others looking down on him and the others haven't kicked Ranta out despite being annoyed by him. So, it's clear they can tolerate each other generally speaking. They only need to make sure nobody dies because of friendly fire.

You seem to think he changed during this episode, I don't think he changed at all. That's something we will never agree on. Unless the next episode presents a totally reformed Ranta for pure (unintentional) comedy.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't think he'll change completely, but it's obvious he changed a fair bit in this episode. I'm not even basing that conclusion on my interpretation of his actions. I'm basing it on how the characters in the story, such as Haru, Yume, and Shihoru, reacted to Ranta's behavior. They were literally wide-eyed with Ranta this episode. Haru even explicitly said that Ranta wasn't acting like himself.

It's up to you to make assumptions about Ranta's behavior and rationalize it any way you want, but I'll side with simplicity and agree with the characters in the story.

[Kraco]

Right. The characters that always keep looking down on him and treating him like an annoying idiot. Surely the best judges of all. He didn't change. He merely showed a new side of himself in that unprecedented situation. Since it's a situation that had never happened before, how would they know? I bet nobody knew beforehand Haru would so willingly leave behind a team member to save himself, huh. Even if it was the smartest thing to do in order to reorganize and sneak behind the kobolds' backs using a different route.

[shinta|hikari]

Why are you bringing Haru into the conversation?

Revealing a "new" side of yourself is no different from changing from the POV of other people. The point is, his attitude this episode was not something he showed to anyone before, including you, me, and the rest of the characters. Your conclusion that it is a secret side of him, which may well be true but is irrelevant, is just an assumption on your part.

The characters who actually live and quest with him are the best judges for his character. We viewers don't even see him alone without the rest of the cast. What do we know?

EDIT:
Just to be clear, I'm actually in the "he's an awkward tsundere" camp, so I'm totally fine with this cooperative Ranta being his true personality. However, the fact is he did not behave anywhere remotely as amiable in the past compared to this episode. So whether this is his true personality showing or him changing to be nicer, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is this isn't the Ranta we've seen so far.

EDIT2:
Onto more meaningful things (https://strawpoll.me/7138212). And this (http://i.imgur.com/OlqsFRb.jpg).

[Kraco]

Why are you bringing Haru into the conversation?

He's the one missing the dead man, Manato, the most, even to the point of talking to an imagined ghost. So, it wasn't given he could leave behind a team member to their likely death, even if it was the most sensible choice from a leader.


However, the fact is he did not behave anywhere remotely as amiable in the past compared to this episode. So whether this is his true personality showing or him changing to be nicer, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is this isn't the Ranta we've seen so far.

There was never any need for him to act like this. It's also possible that it has been slowly building inside of him, an annoyance of feeling unappreaciated and undervalued by the others. That would feed his need to show off (like a kid). Because he certainly was showing off, like he always is.


EDIT2:
Onto more meaningful things (https://strawpoll.me/7138212). And this (http://i.imgur.com/OlqsFRb.jpg).

As expected, Mary is winning! Thawing a kuudere is the best.

[NeoCybercoin]

I think Ranta mostly acts the way he does because he feels their lives aren't in any real danger as long as they are in a group. But when Deathspot showed up he realized that thing along could wipe out the group so he did everything he could to make sure they all make it. The group never has never seen this side of him because there was never a need to show it. Sure his communication skills need word but he demonstrated he doesn't need to talk to know what the others are doing in combat as was shown when he and Haru fought together.

[MFauli]

Not sure I can agree with that, Neo. Ranta should know from their first attempts at killing a single Goblin and failing to do so, that fighting is dangerous and risking your life.

As I said, I think Ranta is the most "real" character in this anime. Of course, he has no way to know about the real circumstances (or does he?), but he acts like somebody who indeed is playing a game and doesn´t bother to treat it like a serious, real situation. Maybe that´s what you also meant, Neo. Ranta clearly thinks this entire world is, to be blunt, bullshit. He doesn´t accept it, he doesn´t care about it. But he also doesn´t know what to do otherwise. So he keeps tagging along, blurting out annoying lines of annoyance (lol) and that´s it.

The only other character that once showed a similar level of unwillingness to accept this world was Shihoru at the very beginning, where she was all timid and depressed. But that´s changed. Bow-girl is a complete maniac, and berserk-guy and Haru have drowned themselves in meaningless busiwork.

It sucks that this anime will never get to the point where we find out more about the whole surroundings of this world, how they were trapped inside a game and such.

[Kraco]

As I said, I think Ranta is the most "real" character in this anime. Of course, he has no way to know about the real circumstances (or does he?), but he acts like somebody who indeed is playing a game and doesn´t bother to treat it like a serious, real situation. Maybe that´s what you also meant, Neo. Ranta clearly thinks this entire world is, to be blunt, bullshit. He doesn´t accept it, he doesn´t care about it. But he also doesn´t know what to do otherwise. So he keeps tagging along, blurting out annoying lines of annoyance (lol) and that´s it.

I frankly have no idea how you could reach a conclusion like that. None of them treat this world like some pseudo-reality they are trapped in. They know of nothing else. If they behave differently from each other, it's because not every person is carved from the same tree. These people probably had nothing at all to do with each other in their previous lives. They retained some basic behavior patterns and values (and random words), but that's all. Ranta is like he is because that's his personality. He's not like that because he wouldn't give a shit about that world. In fact it seems to me he cares a lot more about it than some others. He's actually enjoying what he's doing, despite their low prospects and poor living conditions. He's not simply struggling forward from day to day like the others used to. He's getting out everything he can from being a dark knight.

[shinta|hikari]

Ep 12:












Ranta confirmed as a tsundere. He's pretty bro once you get past his nonsensical blabbermouth exterior. Poor guy has the hots for Yume, but the girl openly said she hated him :( He should lay off the flat chest comments if he wants a shot at that DFC.

Yume has come a long way, from not being able to use her bows at all to sniping Date Spots' eye. Now if she spent more time with the bow and less climbing rocks, she might have sniped both eyes before running out of ammo. Then again, maybe it was her hobby that pushed Ranta to try climbing for fun. That's the only explanation I can think of for him being able to climb out of that well.

Haru was bad ass this episode. So the reason why he wasn't cut out to be a leader was because he's a fucking assassin, which makes sense because he's a thief. If he can master those death lines, then he'll be the most powerful killer out there. His predecessors Shiki and Shiki and Shiki have proven that much.

Renji is great as always, and I like how Haru has grown enough to realize how immature he reacted the last time they met.

30 gold coins is a huge sum. That should push them forward a lot.

Haru X Mary is pretty much confirmed at this point. She's so sweet and cool at the same time. Best waifu material.

Now I kinda understand why this show was so slow, not that I condone that decision. They probably had no better stopping point than this, so they decided to cap off the cour with it. If you asked me, I'd have preferred a 10 episode like Konosuba to make the entire thing more compact and riveting, but maybe there's more happening on the sales/production end of it I'm not aware of.

[NeoCybercoin]

Agreed. Rant is just a big tsundere. Despite admitting wanting to fondle Yume he didn't when he could. Guess he knows there are lines he can't cross. Though peeing is fine in his mind. The only one that can control Ranta is Mary.
Anyway those death lines...man they make Haru badass and actually quite OP when you think about it. Still want a next season but don't think it's gonna happen.

Also...poor animation mistake when he used Exhaust...suddenly he had his helmet again.

EDIT: SPYING no peeing. Dafuq where my hands doing when I typed?

[shinta|hikari]

Saw that too and even took a screenshot, but I forgot to put it in my post.
1765

[MFauli]

Lame ending. Haru´s ability reminds me of the Danmachi hero. It´s overpowered and thus boring. If Haru gets this sort of ability every time they face an overwhelming enemy, that´s just bs. Without this cheat-like ability, they´d have been dead.

Best thing from this episode: Guts taking the sword of Dead Spots.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm glad Haru has this OP ability. He's the hero, after all. It was about time he did something noteworthy.

[KrayZ33]

Watched this show over the past few weeks, it was a pretty amazing ride.

This show is probably the only one in it's genre that's also truely focusing on the party and their relationship with each other and not just about a single hero. On top of that, it truely managed to get the "exploring"-factor right... when Haru walked around in episode 9 it really felt like that moment you have in games when you visit and explore a big town for the first time.
Since I could watch all the episodes at once, it didn't feel slow to me either... though I can only imagine how it must've been to see them doing nothing but hunting goblins for ~3-4 weeks when you have to wait a week for 1 episode.

I'm so going to read the LNs... and I kinda hope that the BDs make Death Spot's death more epic somehow.. it really felt like it was a budget-cut even though I'm pretty sure they were trying to make Haru look like he was in a trance.

easily a 9/10, might be in my top 5 list.
Nice action, nice character interaction, nice story, it had both (very) sad and funny moments and nice animation.

I could bond with *every* single (main) character (even the boring good-guy type Manato!!!), in that regard it's probably the best show I've seen yet.

I can't even pick a favorite, Yume? Mary? Moguzo? Yume's carefree attitude is truely *genuine* (it was *so* much different from most "genki" characters), Moguzo' gentle giant archetype was both fitting and well done and when he got into that duel with the hob-goblin he became even more awesome. And Mary has clearly shown the most drastic change and even though she was supposed to be calm, calculating and "cold hearted" at first, you could clearly see that something else was going on... which, now after writing it out, probably made her my favorite (or at least most interesting) in this show. However, I can't say that her looks didn't play a role in that valuation - hehe.
But then there is Ranta and Haru too, and their interactions were probably the most important in this show...

One more thing that I appreciated a lot was Manato's ghost appereances whenever Haru was alone, not knowing what to do. I got emotional whenever that happened, it didn't feel forced, he/it didn't even give answers most of the time.. you could tell that it was Haru talking to himself and that the answers he got were basically what he knew he had to do already. It was truely beautiful, shit I'm actually tearing up whenever I think about them, especially the first one where he was sitting near the campfire, the night before they decided to buy a helmet for Moguzo. It's just one of these moments and interactions where you can tell how the group worked before and what kind of impact it has on them when one part of it is missing.

I can only suggest rewatching this show in 1-2 sessions if someone got bored in the middle of it. Doki has the BDs up until episode 8. Pay attention to some of the details and conversations, it's really worth it imho.

[shinta|hikari]

Didn't you mind the odd slowness at times? And the never ending musical scenes? It's not a deal breaker or anything, but it was a really odd direction choice.

Volume 3 is out by the way. It continues right where the anime left off. You gotta read it. It's awesome.

[KrayZ33]

In fact I liked them, because the musical scenes introduced the world or the town. And sometimes they were pretty impactful (for example when they gave Manato his badge). It wasn't *really* slow when you watch ~4-5 episodes in a row or with only a day in between them...

Actually, the pace was really good, you had slow, calm scenes where the party members interacted with each other and then when they fought something, it got really fast and chaotic. It's pretty similar to how Final Fantasy handles it, especially with the music.

Right now, I can't imagine how it would've been if it were any faster, because none of the scenes I've watched seemed pointless as each of them were impactful enough to be worthwhile.

edit:
Take episode 4 for example @ around 8:20... you might write it off as pointless babbling from Yume, but it's actually interesting to hear about the Hunter's Guild and the way Yume talks about it tells us alot about her character while Haru's reaction shows us something about how he sees Yume and whether he likes to interact with her or not etc.
It's pretty darn cute on top of that and when Haru started wagging with his head you might even catch yourself doing the same thing (at least I did...lol). It pretty much shows how Yume is able to calm everyone down and how pleasant it must be for Haru to talk to her about unimportant/mildly interesting things like these.

And then take a look at what happens right after their talk and how both the pace and music change.

It's going Up and Down, Up and Down in this show and the most important thing, it nevers goes down while there is still something going on... no flashbacks during action scenes, if there is action going on, they always showed the whole thing until it's over... from all kind of angles and views, you could always tell what each party member is doing.
Overall, the show enjoyed a really solid direction.

As I said however, when you watch it week after week, I can imagine you get the feeling that not alot happened... after all, if you only focus on/or watch it for the action, all they ever did was killing goblins and then some kobolds later on and the show ended there. Not something you would expect from a "MMO-ish" Anime. Yet each character and their interrelationship is probably more fleshed out than any Log Horizon or SAO character could ever hope to be after 2-3 seasons.

If there is a show that deserves another season, it's this one for sure, especially after the amount of buildup they did... but from what I know, it sold rather poorly compared to top sellers and it didn't even boost the LNs that much?

[shinta|hikari]

If I watched the entire series straight, I think I'd be even more annoyed of the constant musical scenes because they are way too close to each other. But that's just me. The first one was actually really well done, and maybe the Manato death one, but all the others felt like padding.

I think if they only had 10 episodes, this would've been much better. There will always be something exciting happening in each episode, and they won't need as many blank air time.

The concept and premise are really good. Goblins playing chess? Hell yeah. These adventurers are fucking evil lol. They almost deserve their suffering haha.

[Munsu]

I just finished the series myself, and I loved it. I do have to say that I was disappointed that we didn't get to explore more of this world, even more of the town they're living in.

In all, I just wanted a lot more of what this series managed to offer, but even so I enjoyed this series a lot.

[KrayZ33]

If I watched the entire series straight, I think I'd be even more annoyed of the constant musical scenes because they are way too close to each other. But that's just me. The first one was actually really well done, and maybe the Manato death one, but all the others felt like padding.

I think if they only had 10 episodes, this would've been much better. There will always be something exciting happening in each episode, and they won't need as many blank air time.

The concept and premise are really good. Goblins playing chess? Hell yeah. These adventurers are fucking evil lol. They almost deserve their suffering haha.

I'm not sure if we are actually talking about the same thing right now... what musical scenes are you referring too, because after the rather short first one and the one after minatos death, there is only one sight seeing (where Haru found out about where Mary lives) and maybe the one where they gave Manato his badge..even though they were actually talking and doing something throughout that scene so I guess it's pretty much "BGM" in that regard.

They weren't really that numerous. If you add them all together, they might've been 10 minutes long.
(~4 minutes at the end of the episode where Manato died and ~4 minutes where Haru explored the town on their day off after they avenged him)

But these are rather... normal, aren't they? Even Naruto has a lot of these. I guess one needs to realize it's less of an "action" show, but more of a - I actually don't know what to call it - show. (coming of age + adventure?) before watching it.

[MFauli]

I guess the series is a lot easier to stomach when you don´t have to wait a week in-between every episode. Then it might even have a movie-feel to it due to the aforementioned music scenes.

My biggest problem with this anime remains: It was completely unsatisfying. You don´t do the typical caught-inside-a-mmorpg plot and then stop after 12 episodes. That cannot work. And it didn´t. By nature, stories about mmorpgs are big, epic, long-winded. Add to that the snail pace of Grimgar and you have the perfect storm.
I´d LOVE to see more of this story, but it needed to be a 70 episode-anime to cover a reasonable amount of story. Similarily Overloard was also frustrating because it ended after a single season.

Fuck the anime industry that thinks it´s okay to use anime as an advertisement for the manga or whatever. I watch anime because it´s the best medium to tell a traditional story. If I wanted to read manga or light novels or visual novels, I´d do exactly that. Giving me 12 episodes of a big story, getting me all hot and hyped, only to leave me with blue balls, sucks.

mmorpg anime I´m still waiting for another season:

- Hai to Sensou no Grimgar
- Overlord
- Log Horizon
- Accel World
- Sword Art Online (that one is coming, at least. fuck you, Kirito)

[KrayZ33]

To be fair, they ended Grimgar at a very solid point considering that they most likely only wanted to test the water.
Of course, there is so much more to be explored and to do in that World and the question why they are even there remains, but overall it was probably the best moment for them to stop after 12 episodes.

It might even be the reason why this show is considered "slower" than most. They didn't want to start new threads and mysteries, instead they focused on finishing scores that had to be settled and could define the characters more accurately in the process. Compare that to what Log Horizon did... open and unfinished plot lines everywhere, even after 2 seasons. More and more were added.

I can honestly say that Grimgar had a nice ending that doesn't leave you hanging somewhere in the middle of something.

[Munsu]

I guess the series is a lot easier to stomach when you don´t have to wait a week in-between every episode. Then it might even have a movie-feel to it due to the aforementioned music scenes.

My biggest problem with this anime remains: It was completely unsatisfying. You don´t do the typical caught-inside-a-mmorpg plot and then stop after 12 episodes. That cannot work. And it didn´t. By nature, stories about mmorpgs are big, epic, long-winded. Add to that the snail pace of Grimgar and you have the perfect storm.
I´d LOVE to see more of this story, but it needed to be a 70 episode-anime to cover a reasonable amount of story. Similarily Overloard was also frustrating because it ended after a single season.

Fuck the anime industry that thinks it´s okay to use anime as an advertisement for the manga or whatever. I watch anime because it´s the best medium to tell a traditional story. If I wanted to read manga or light novels or visual novels, I´d do exactly that. Giving me 12 episodes of a big story, getting me all hot and hyped, only to leave me with blue balls, sucks.

mmorpg anime I´m still waiting for another season:

- Hai to Sensou no Grimgar
- Overlord
- Log Horizon
- Accel World
- Sword Art Online (that one is coming, at least. fuck you, Kirito)


I'd kill for more Overlord, what an awesome series that was.

Log Horizon, indeed, hoping for more. I wonder how much the recent troubles with the author may play into the decision.

Accel World is getting a sequel of sorts movie, so hopefully that leads into another season eventually.

There's also No Game, No Life which is getting a sequel movie (but it's set in the past). That also needs a sequel fully.

[MFauli]

Can anybody reasonably explain why series like Overlord and No Game, No Life aren´t getting more seasons asap? I can see how Log Horizon was too ... schematic for the larger audience. But Overlord and NGNL were pure, unfiltered fun and awesomeness. They had to be successful, hadn´t they?

[shinta|hikari]

Not enough content, maybe? At least not enough to have a good stopping point for a second season.

And NGNL will have a movie made from the best book in the story, so it kinda doesn't count.

@Krayz - It doesn't help your point about musical scenes when the series you bring up is Naruto.

I'm actually okay with musical scenes if they are done for a reason, not including padding of course. Those scenes are ideally added to modify pacing. When things are going too fast, you add them to tone things down. When things are going slow, you add them to cram a lot of content in a minute or so of no-dialog music.

Grimgar, an already slow show, used them to... well... do nothing much. You can literally take them all out and the show wouldn't be any worse. Well, except for the first one because we knew nothing about the characters back then, so any info was welcome.

Also take note that this show was made to air weekly. While I agree with you that watching it in one go would alleviate the slowness, that doesn't make it okay for it to feel really slow in the airing schedule it was originally created for. In short, while it isn't a deal breaker, the criticism is valid.

[Munsu]

So, long neglected (as I began watching it last year), I'm now resuming watching Rage of Bahamut: Genesis and it's quite clear that this is a sequel to Grimgar, but with Ranta as the MC. I don't know why he changed his name though, maybe too many enemies.

[shinta|hikari]

But Ranta dies in the 3rd novel of Grimgar. So no.

[Munsu]

But Ranta dies in the 3rd novel of Grimgar. So no.

Faked his death you mean.

[MFauli]

But Ranta dies in the 3rd novel of Grimgar. So no.

Are we really posting random spoilers now? :/

[shinta|hikari]

We're just kidding around.

[KrayZ33]

@Krayz - It doesn't help your point about musical scenes when the series you bring up is Naruto.

I'm actually okay with musical scenes if they are done for a reason, not including padding of course. Those scenes are ideally added to modify pacing. When things are going too fast, you add them to tone things down. When things are going slow, you add them to cram a lot of content in a minute or so of no-dialog music.

Grimgar, an already slow show, used them to... well... do nothing much. You can literally take them all out and the show wouldn't be any worse. Well, except for the first one because we knew nothing about the characters back then, so any info was welcome.

Also take note that this show was made to air weekly. While I agree with you that watching it in one go would alleviate the slowness, that doesn't make it okay for it to feel really slow in the airing schedule it was originally created for. In short, while it isn't a deal breaker, the criticism is valid.

I just brought up Naruto because I don't understand how Grimgar is any different than other shows in that regard
And I'd actually say the show would get worse without them. I'm trying to understand what you dislike about them, they don't really make the show "slower" either. The statement that these scenes didn't do anything is objectively false.

Let's take a look if we are actually talking about the same scenes:

Ep2 for example after they killed their first goblin:
Haru walks around in town, it shows us how things work, if you refuse to earn money, you'll end on the streets as failed soldiers, probably starving to death. Ranta is clearly shaken from what he did, he can finally eat though, the girls can finally spend money and Manato is finally able to relax as a party-leader, because they earned money for the first time. It also tells us something about how each member is able to cope with the situation. And they didn't have to use a single line of Voice acting for this and since they showed us so many different angles, how would you put that in a scene without music that is both "beautiful" to look at and make sense. I think it's a bit unfair, maybe even a bit deriding when people expect so little of Anime directors/writers/authors that they assume that these scenes don't tell a story on their own and/or is pure coincidence. (Not only talking about Grimgar, and I'm not saying you do that - I don't know)
I'm well aware that shit-tier animes exist where this stuff makes no sense at all, but it seemed rather obvious to me that this show actually utilized them very well and the staff actually knew what they were doing.

As for the pace:
I think "slow" might even be the wrong word in the first place. They didn't progress as much in terms of solving mysteries, which means that the "plot" doesn't really advance, which is why I brought up the "goblin hunting for 4 weeks"-part, but it's not like nothing important happened in these 4 episodes. People might expect the "level up!" part to come with every week, but it really was more of a coming-of-age story where the "level up" meant that the characters themselve grew up and started to see things differently.
Take Haru's character progression as an example and then take a look at how the anime ended and what was said when he visited Manato's grave once more...and I'm not talking about the part *after* Manato's ghost disappeared all of a sudden. The words and dialogue itself have been carefully chosen imo.

[shinta|hikari]

A lot of people, not only me, felt that Grimgar was slow while it was airing. And I actually enjoy SoL shows.

What makes Grimgar different from other shows in terms of the musical scenes is the density. Other shows have what, 1 or 2 in an entire cour. Grimgar had double that.

The musical scenes are unnecessary because most of them don't give any new content. They just emphasize or reiterate what we already know. For example, Manato is dead. Yeah it's tragic. Then we get a minute or more of musical moping after that.

It's not only the musical scenes. There are a lot of "nothing happening with no dialog panning shots" in the series. The biggest culprit being the snow scene with Haru and Mary. They stretched that scene out to 5x the length it should be.

I'd caution against using the word objectively false. A lot of nonsense has been justified by that. What is objectively true is that all our posts are opinions of a certain aspect of this show, making them subjective.

I personally value concise and effective delivery over "artful" renditions, and I honestly believe the reason we had so many lull moments in the series is because the best stopping point was the 2nd volume. That meant they had 12 episodes to use up for 2 volumes of content. That requires a bit of stretching.

EDIT:
I read around online and saw that the opinions are split in half about the pace and musical scenes. I guess people, like the two of us, simply have different preferences in pacing and delivery.

[KrayZ33]

First of all, I'm not trying to sound defensive here: (I want to discuss this solely for the sake and enjoyment of discussing things)


The musical scenes are unnecessary because most of them don't give any new content. They just emphasize or reiterate what we already know. For example, Manato is dead. Yeah it's tragic. Then we get a minute or more of musical moping after that.


But it's because it's more than just "Manato is dead - yeah it's tragic" that they used the music in the first place. Manato was literally declared dead ~0,5-1 minute before that and that rather short musical scene showed us the funeral. I don't understand what's the big dealbreaker here? Isn't that the 1x1 of making movies or TV shows? You use music, sound, the camera etc. to make things more tragic, to appeal to the audience and enhance the effect.
Same thing when they gave him his badge - in fact that scene in particular was nothing but the ED of that episode in general and that's really a rather common thing to do, right? (and for a reason)

[MFauli]

All I remember is that the music scenes felt like padding, as if they didn´t have enough content (which was ridiculous, considering the snail pacing) and had to fill up 2-3 minutes to make a complete episode.

[shinta|hikari]

When did I ever say it's a deal breaker? I even specifically mentioned that it's not a deal breaker.


Didn't you mind the odd slowness at times? And the never ending musical scenes? It's not a deal breaker or anything, but it was a really odd direction choice.


My main gripe is they overdid it. Shorter and less musical scenes would've made it jump out as an issue way less.

@Mfauli -
About the content, I can't really blame them. Fitting 3 volumes would've made the pace a little too fast and it would end the cour in an unsatisfying note.

[KrayZ33]

When did I ever say it's a deal breaker? I even specifically mentioned that it's not a deal breaker.



I used the word dealbreaker not in a sense of you disliking the show because of it, but rather as to why you believe that scene was unnecessary and would've been better if they did it somehow differently.
Like.. you/they actually use this kind of scene in that situation and it's not because it's Grimgar and "slow".

as you said yourself
...but it was a really odd direction choice It's defacto not an odd choice but very commonly used, which is also why I said "objectively false" earlier. They are used for a reason and they didn't "abuse" it or use it wrongly. Hmpf, how can I say this.. it's like you can show this to a teacher as reference material when you talk about "how is X used in movies to improve "blah blah".." and find textbook examples in these scenes.

As you said

I personally value concise and effective delivery over "artful" renditions
It was actually a common use of art. Very basic too and I like it that there are shows in the Anime genre that can make use of that. I wouldn't call it "ineffective" either because from their perspective, these scenes are most likely cheaper to produce than the same amount of time in animated conversation and interaction for pretty much the same effect. It's a matter of how much you are willing to "dive" into the story/situation though.
These scenes are pretty much a playing field for me, I like to think about what the author/director wanted to do and what I can get out of these scenes, I watch them 2 times too, 1 more time right after the episode ended. The reason why I actually liked these scenes is because the director/author (I don't know who it actually is who decides these things in adaptations) really managed to tell something and use "art".

I'm always like "yaaay, someone who actually put thought into it and wants the viewer to think and focus about what he's seeing, no inner monologue that "spoils" his exact thoughts, imagine them yourself!" (or something like that) whenever I see well done presentations like these.

edit:
It's the same with Manato's appearences as a ghost (as I mentioned earlier already).. the idea itself is very common isn't it? But the conversations.. or what the ghost is doing is always so obvious and cliché (like a glowing hand tries to reach MC to guide the lost lamb to defeat his enemy). Here it was a portrayal of Haru's mind and that alone tells me so much about Haru's current mental state, yet the scene itself never really *states* it that way. I'm so happy, just from talking about it and the way it's shown and written...it's impossible to be a coincidence, yay.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm more of a science guy, even when it comes to art. Tried and tested techniques have standard ways of execution. Musical scenes aren't supposed to be that long or numerous or densely packed in a standard anime show, much less one with many not-so-riveting moments. That's basically what my gripe boils down to.

Cut the number and length of those scenes in half and I think this show would've been much better, especially in terms of pacing. The problem is, doing that would mean they wouldn't hit the 12 episode mark, and they can't include the 3rd volume for reasons I've stated. So it was an inevitable problem.

I do believe it's also a mindset issue. I tend to always have my critic hat on whenever I watch anything. Instead of focusing on enjoyment and immersion, half my brain is already dissecting the story/execution/logical consistency of anything I see. I'm the guy who people don't want to watch movies with. I think you've accused me of this several times in the past, and you're right.

[KrayZ33]

well, I didn't want to start a fight or anything you just happened to ask whether these scenes bothered me or not and I tried to give reason as to why I like them (even though I'm fully aware no one has to explain why he likes/dislikes someone, but it's always interesting to hear their reasoning)

As for the 12 episode mark, I really doubt that these ~10 minutes had anything to do about that. It's just ~10 minutes after all (of which most actually showed characters doing something that could've been done without music and with dialogue), not 40+

And I believe that musical scenes are actually found in "slower" shows more often than action ones. It's true that Grimgar certainly had more than a standard one though. I think (and I also believe we agree on at least that, because you mentioned something similar yourself) that each of them however, was well done. I didn't mind to see 4 of those, I probably wouldn't have a problem with having 6 or 8 or one in every episode (if the quality remains and depending on how long they are, not every musical scene was equally long after all). I guess we can at least acknowledge the scenes on their own imho.

They didn't feel as generic too, the musical part in episode 9, where they showed Yume climbing a cliff and Ranta chilling on a boat watching her, felt a bit like the cuts they do in documentaries... you know - they play music while they show streets, the town, the surroundings and you get a feel of how large the scene is and how it looks like around there. I really liked that for example - the backgrounds were really pretty too.. watercolor-ish

[shinta|hikari]

10 minutes (and is it really just 10? Wasn't the very first one showing the town and the team like 6 minutes long?) placed strategically in certain episodes can affect the length of an entire cour. Add to that the no-dialog no-action scenes (or more accurately, panning images), and you can easily squeeze out 1 or 2 episodes more from the content. The musical scenes were obviously not in the source material, so it's added there for a reason. We sort of disagree in the reason for it.

While making anime is arguably art, it's also a business, and I can't help but look at it from that standpoint. With the knowledge that I have of the LN situation and the usual episode to volume ratio, I'm almost forced to make the link. The industry standard is 12 episodes per cour, but the content didn't fit that mold, so they adjusted. It's no big sin, but it's also far from the ideal creative canvass.

Well placed musical scenes (and any artistic choice, really) lend to the overall polish of a show, but I think they overdid it here. It's like how the monogatari series is now just a glorified slide show because of how repetitive the style has become due to the story's length.

Now before you say I'm being too harsh a judge despite not being an artist/creator myself, I actually do write and draw as a hobby. Fitting a story into certain word counts, balancing chapter content for entertainment value and information, as well as knowing what is visually pleasing/impressive is something I actually worked hard at.

I know very well how hard the creative process is, but I still think criticism, especially constructive ones like mine (because I actually give possible ways to improve it) is necessary. I'm not just saying random stuff for no reason, much less to hate on things.

[KrayZ33]

To answer the question about the length:
I think we are on the same page as to what is considered a musical scene, basicaly those where they didn't talk and the scene went from place A to place B and then C and so on, or when they just stand there and stare at the grave, basically everything else is just BGM during a conversation, right?

The first one in Episode 2 was 4+- minutes, though it certainly had some story elements in it.
It was placed right after their first goblin kill

(There is a scene with lyrical music in episode 3 too, where they are actually hunting and Haru explains some stuff like skills though, I don't really consider that a part of what we are discussing here though. They also talk a lot during that so it's more like a "fast forward" button scene?)

The next one is Episode 4 after Manato died - it's 2 minutes long, they are at the church, they cry a lot and then proceed with the funeral and stay there for a while

(There is another scene in Episode 7 that last about a minute where they bath/talk with each other and keeps going for another 5 minutes, these 5 minutes however are action packed and I actually consider it as another "fast forward" button scene... I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's really what it is. They are killing goblins left and right and loot the shit out of them. Haru keeps explaining the new skills they bought and all that)

Then in Episode 8, they give Manato his badge, they pretty much stand there and do nothing for ~1:30 and the following scene is rather slow to fit the music, so I'd add another 30 seconds even though it's basically talking and "romance time".


In Episode 9 there is the scene which I mentioned earlier, it's about 3-4 minutes long with some Haru x Mary time in between.


So yeah... ~10-12 minutes, half a episode basically. Quite a few of these scenes could've been voiced most of the time, if you really want to hear "I'm feeling sad because of X" or "I'm happy now" out of their mouth that is. The first 4+- minutes I mentioned where basically ~90% story telling if you ask me

These 12 minutes however are still about 3x more than most other shows have, but to go as far as saying they were done so they could go with 12 episodes... I don't know. I actually don't know how reserving TV spots or that business in general works, but I'm pretty sure it would've been easier to do 10/11 and fill the one week that's left with something else.

[shinta|hikari]

It's not about voicing it out. It's about the length and frequency. I can confidently say I can edit those scenes to less than half their length without losing any impact.

2 minutes sounds pretty standard for scenes like this. 4 to 5 is just too much.

And I've said this three times already, but the musical scenes are just part of the problem. There are a lot of panning images and blank scenes littered everywhere. Some scenes are just plain repetitive, like the ones in the bar with rehashed dialogues. These are all really minor things on their own, but added together, they start to make some episodes feel a lot less dense in terms of content, and that's because they are actually less dense.

[KrayZ33]

Well, yeah that's 100% true.

Their goal was to make it calm and to be in contrast to what they do and experience while they hunt after all. And *I* can confidently say you can't edit these scenes and have the same result... but neither you nor I can proof it, it also depends so much on the person who's watching it.

Not even once did I feel the urge to skip a second of this show and I never felt as if these scenes were boring. I actually appreciate the time because you start to focus on things that aren't said, but shown and it sets you in a different mood.

The further you calmed "down", the more you tense "up" whenever something happens. (ep4 12:00 for example)
It's "flying witch" with drama and action (the only show that came to my mind right now). Taking away the "flying witch parts" would make it something different.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm not talking about the flying witch parts. I'm talking about the blank parts dragging on for a few seconds too long each time. Believe me, there are many ways to adjust this show to a shorter length and it'll be better. You won't, but I just wanted to state it. Heck, I bet even the creators themselves can make it be better if you take away the 12 episode and budget restraints. There is always room for improvement.

Best example. (http://www1.soul-animes.net/watch/hai-to-gensou-no-grimgar-episode-8/)

Start at 18:15 and watch til the end. Tell me you don't think some of the aimless walking couldn't be clipped or shortened. We even get different angles of the same place, for some reason. Then we get 5 seconds of snow footprints. Why not 2? Why not 3? We get it. They're walking calmly on the snow, enjoying each other's company. We don't need 5 seconds of footprints to tell us that.

Then we get the same shots of the same place earlier, only this time, with Haru and Mary walking in it. Then what was the point of showing them earlier..? The music actually had to be looped to fit the stretched out scene, so it isn't like their trying to match the music (which can be edited shorter anyway).

Then more still images of places lasting for 3-5 seconds each while the bell tolls. Places we've already seen. But they have different angles now, yey.

Haru takes a breath and returns Mary's farewell. For 20 seconds! He actually says "yeah" twice! Okay, I understand he's thinking of something during that time. But making someone wait 20 seconds before returning their greeting is just unnatural. So is saying "yeah" twice but whatever. I'm not saying they should cut this out, but 10 seconds is enough for it. With one "yeah."

Then more walking and standing on snow. No wait, now we have a blank sky with small flakes of snow to end it, perfectly symbolizing a scene with so much nothingness and bits of content scattered in it.

You see, none of these are noticeable problems by themselves. But all together, you suddenly get 2 minutes of extra episode time with no actual plot or character content.

So yeah, I can confidently cut this entire scene in half and make it better.

Don't get me wrong. I love the dialog and subtle expression changes (including how Haru constantly looks away from the beautiful Mary) in this scene. But the blank parts were way too long for no reason. The conversation itself is slow paced, which is fine (nice actually). But you don't need to make everything else slow too. It loses balance.

[MFauli]

Now that shinta describes it in such detail, I remember often thinking: "ok, nice music scene ... oh, now that episode is over?!" Because I always expected at least some sort of cliffhanger revelation at the end of the music scene. Instead, we got those story-less music scenes, and they kept going, and going, and going ... and then the episode was over and it felt like I had just wasted several minutes.

[KrayZ33]

Cutting away half of the time wouldn't have the same effect...
That's really silly to assume.

You don't even realise that turning a 5 second cut into a 2 second cut will speed up the scene...

This

Then we get the same shots of the same place earlier, only this time, with Haru and Mary walking in it. Then what was the point of showing them earlier..? The music actually had to be looped to fit the stretched out scene, so it isn't like their trying to match the music (which can be edited shorter anyway).

Isn't true either. The bridge for example is where Manato watches the sunset, basically his special place, where they as a group used to watch sunsets and later where they'll watch the sun rise, while Haru and Mary are at the town entrance.
The place with the wooden frame is where Manato sat down after their first kill, all in all, it's scenery we've seen in a "spring" theme. (from a different angle)

Doesn't really matter a whole lot, the important part here is for example, the snowy landscape (that started to appear after they said farewell) and what it means in japanese culture.

[shinta|hikari]

So you seriously didn't find that specific scene, putting aside everything else now, slow?

And I do realize that it'll speed up a scene if I cut a 5 second clip to 2... That's the entire point. What have you been smoking lol. I said I'll make it better, not make it the same.

[KrayZ33]

What makes you think it's "better", it's not, you don't want that scene to be fast(er).
No, it's not slow, it's fitting. You might be able to cut a second here but it won't add to anything significant... the point is that they didn't waste the screentime and the "extra" second is actually doing something too. Showing the same scene 5 seconds or 10 seconds makes a difference, even if it's just a single frame.

Action scenes are fast, scenes that are supposed to show sorrow and sadness have to be slow, it's nearly impossible to be "too" slow during these scenes. Especially if they do not even last ~3 minutes.

What I'd consider slow would be the scenes in between these major-plot points
For example when they just eat, chill and talk... but even that is important for this show. Since it's not just action shounen but all about their interpersonal relationship... and about Haru's (and everyone else's) journey into adulthood.

[shinta|hikari]

I agree with the first part, but not the second. There is always a "too much" in anything, and this was it. That snow scene was waaaay over padded. If you think half is too much to cut away, what about a third? A fourth? Anything is better than what we got. It's not about making it fast. It's about changing to something more fitting from that painstakingly slow conclusion to an episode.

Like, how do you justify the 20 second Haru double "yeah" part? It... doesn't make sense. He literally just stops moving for half of it. People don't do that after someone bids them farewell.

Part of this probably comes from the fact that you watched the episodes back to back. Like Mfauli, I found that a really odd way to end an episode. It just simply dragged into nothingness. Then it ends. If you watch the next episode right after, I'm sure you won't feel nearly as dissatisfied.

[KrayZ33]

You are asking me questions that are impossible to answer.. I don't know whether I'd like a shorter pause better than what we have right now, probably not. The director might've have rewatched that scene a hundred times himself and decided it's better to have him breath and wait one more second, or have them walk together 3 seconds longer.

You are also ignoring what is actually happening there.

Haru's wanted to say something but got interrupted by the bell, then Mary decided to end the conversation there. Haru accepted it with a "..yeah". Thought about it again for a second and decided it's probably for the better to end it here for today, he took a deep breath, swallowed it and wanted to end the conversation on a less dramatic and more friendly note. He already pushed her somewhat, close to tears even, which is shown by her voice.

"See you tomorrow" implies that they can actually talk about it at a later time.
And I'll use the same sentence now :D
I'm off for today, see ya, will respond later if anything comes up.

[shinta|hikari]

I understand the scene. What I don't understand is the need for it to be 20 seconds long...

About the questions, I personally can say if they shave a bit off the lengthy presentation, I would've liked that scene much, much better. I've never been a fan of staring at still images when I'm supposed to be watching an animated story. At least in the Monogatari series, they say stuff during the slide show.