GATE: Jieitai Kanochi nite, Kaku Tatakaeri [Archive] - Page 2

Ryllharu

Fri, 01-15-2016, 05:33 PM

It's say it is pretty safe to say that although the bunny girl is abused...innocent she is not. She either played the idiot prince as well as he believes his father intends to do with him, or she's one hell of an unwilling strategist.

She obviously caught on to the idea that the Japanese are all about protecting innocents, ending Itami's assault on the prince. An obvious slave speaking on his behalf will move them pretty easily. And this was before the Emperor warned them of that very flaw. Then while the prince is convalescing, she's giving him advice on how to take advantage of the situation, telling him exactly how to play it so he can follow in Pina's footsteps as a "peacemaker".

Followed by a little willing lovemaking (this time, or both times?) to distract him. She's clever, that's for sure.

That said, Itami is too. Kuribayashi is a berserker, out of control, and lacking discipline, but having the shortest, and even further, female, member of your team take out all of the soldiers and then personally beat the shit out of a well-known warrior is quite clever. Nothing better demonstrates how outclassed they are than have Kuribayashi take a excellent fighter out while unarmed (at best she was using sap gloves).

MFauli

Fri, 01-15-2016, 05:54 PM

I hated this episode for the most part. Excuse me, but at this point Japan/the SDF aren´t here for peace talks, they´re imperialists, taking over control of a country they don´t like. It´s tyranny.

Hitting the PRINCE in the face? Actually MURDERING all those soldiers? And the king doesn´t give a shit? This was sooo bad. The SDF didnt even warn them, they just went full-on berserk. And then Kuribayashi didnt try to make some non-lethal shots, no, she went on a fucking killing-spree!

This is unacceptable. Itami can be a niceguy all he wants, the truth is that Japan has set out to conquer this land, and they don´t care for opposition.

It´s so stupid. Seriously, you don´t attack another party just like that! If Itami was in charge of US-military, I guess the US would now be at war with Iran, because Itami would have killed the Iranian soldiers that got ahold of those sailors. He´d also start a war when some idiot tourist buys drugs in Malaysia and is then sentenced to death. Who gives a shit about other nation´s laws? Right?!

Sorry, but disrepecting this fantasy world´s laws makes it all way less interesting to watch. Yeah, slavery sucks, but it is normal in that world. And we´re not ones to act all high and mighty, we´ve gone through that shit ourselves. When the prince owns and rapes Noriko, he´s not hurting any of his world´s laws, this is what´s within his powers. Instead of going berserk, the SDF should have complained to the king and then, if necessary, demanded a court session. If that failed, they could have used violence, but then without acting as if they´re negotiaters of peace - they´re conquerers.

Kraco

Fri, 01-15-2016, 06:28 PM

Uhhuh. The empire's soldiers attacked first. You just didn't notice it. The prince gave the order. The emperor, being the cold dude he is, didn't bother to overrule it because a few soldiers can always be replaced. He probably also wanted to see the power of Japanese for himself. I guess you would have been happier if the main character had died here because he wouldn't have had the guts to protect himself and his troops. Great thinking, man.

The Japanese aren't here negotiating a peace between two equals. They are there to dictate terms and then play some negotiation theatre to make the terms more acceptable. They said that aloud in the previous episode. The other choice would be to slaughter the empire's population, but that wouldn't sit too well with the Japanese voters. So, they would rather have peace. The empire attacked first, Japan won, so the justice is doubly on the Japanese side (since the winner of a war is always right by international standards that most countries in Europe and elsewhere know all too well from history). Things got even worse for the empire when the existence of the Japanese slaves was revealed. The empire suddenly had all the more to pay for.

Kind of strange a German wouldn't get this considering how the USA and USSR split your country after the WW2 and did what the hell they wanted with their shares, especially the Soviets.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-15-2016, 06:51 PM

It's because he wants Itami and the rest to be the good guys, when they clearly aren't.

That military bitch is a psycho. She could have spared most of those enemy soldiers and not brutalize the prince to keep the moral high ground. She basically ignored morality and just went bat shit out of anger. Itami's punch made more sense because it stopped further abuse of a Japanese citizen, but the violence after that was an overreaction and barbaric. The initial melee combat scene didn't make sense. Shoot a guard or two to show them they are outmatched and ask them to surrender.

MFauli

Fri, 01-15-2016, 07:02 PM

Kind of strange a German wouldn't get this considering how the USA and USSR split your country after the WW2 and did what the hell they wanted with their shares, especially the Soviets.

Totally not comparable at all. Nazi Germany was an evil shit hole, they lost and got what´s coming.

This isn´t the case in this anime. Never has it been stated so far that Japan is there to CHANGE this fantasy world. And that´s what doesnt sit right with me. Itami and his ever friendly face act as if they´re peaceful visitors, explorers et al. But they´re not. Towards the existing world, they´re an evil enemy that abuses his oberwhelming power to oppress all the kingdoms in this world. And that´s not okay.
The only reason why this can work even remotly, is because these fantasy people are soooo weak in combat. If they stood on a more equal footing, what Itami just did would be cause for retaliation and thus war.

Tbh I´m now hoping that the fantasy people will get their hands on a good weapon of their own soon, so we get to see how the SDF deals with the sudden realiazation that they can´t behave like an axe in a forest. It´s not like the SDF is allll powerful. Rory could probably slaughter the whole SDF by herself. And the anime has been completely ignoring magic, other than that of the blue haired girl´s. There could easily be magic spells many times worse than the strongest nuke. I´m hoping we´ll see something like that. It´s simply too one-sided at the moment.

Also, I´m firmly on the side of the prince. He´s not a rotten evil bastard at all. He´s a prince who thinks of himself as a prince, and enjoys the privileges. Maybe he overdid it a bit at times, but that scene where he calmly explain to his brother that even though he isn´t as fit for the throne, he´d become the next king ... that felt like somebody with a certain wit and intelligence to him. I hope they don´t further degrade him to some laughable punching sack, and instead give him more depth. Maybe he could steal weapons from the SDF? Would be interesting.

@edit: also what shinta just said. Killing all those soldiers was petty, unnecessary revenge. "How DARE they kidnapp and, likely, rape a Japanese girl? Death!!!" bollocks

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-15-2016, 07:22 PM

Rory is just one unit and can get hurt by bullets. She just regenerates. Use a big enough gun and she'll be minced meat. Then you pack that meat into a metal box and throw it into the ocean. The end.

Magic in their world has been shown as weak and inferior to modern technology. The wizard girl and her master are there to show that. This can change, but so far this is what has been explained explicitly and implied by the people's reactions.

MFauli

Fri, 01-15-2016, 07:42 PM

Maybe so, but if that´s true (even magic being weak), it stands to question: What´s this anime about anyway? Japan entering a theme park? Because at that point the whole fantasy world would be relegated to just that.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-15-2016, 07:55 PM

Japan invading another world through a GATE?

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-15-2016, 10:47 PM

It's say it is pretty safe to say that although the bunny girl is abused...

She's not abused. The prince stopped their S&M play immediately on the safe-word. He even said "if you want to serve me", suggesting she took on that role voluntarily. Of course, it's still the case that she took on that role "voluntarily" instead of being a nobody-slave.

As far as the message-of-the-show goes, I agree for the most part with MFauli regarding colonisation practices - not that I mind their big "Don't fuck with us" message. Their interests are that of Japan's, not humans in general necessarily. That's more of an Itami thing.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-15-2016, 11:11 PM

Huh? Weren't her family/friends held hostage? Or when you say abuse, do you limit it to physical abuse (like the S&M thing on the bed)? Even then, we don't know if the prince beats on her when he's in a bad mood. He was pretty rough with the beat-up Noriko, and the bunny did say that Noriko should be happy with that treatment. That at least hints that she has received similar treatment before.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-15-2016, 11:25 PM

Weren't her family/friends held hostage?

Hmm, true. I forgot that part. "Your comrades' lives depend upon your efforts." That could mean they'd live if she performed, or that they'd live better lives if she performed. Either way she's forced into this more or less.

In my previous post I limited abuse to physical abuse. That is correct.

David75

Sat, 01-16-2016, 01:45 AM

A machine gun is used for killing.
Not "safely" incapacitating people like the tools used in a strike for example.
Itami knew what he was doing when he sent the psycho.
You can tell your people all the sweet lies you want provided you save your ass/ political image.
Going to war to protect peace is an oxymore that has been overused for a long time, because it works so well it would be a shame not to use it again.

Kraco

Sat, 01-16-2016, 03:22 AM

I'm pretty sure Itami knew what he was doing when he gave the order with the psycho woman in tow. He needed to create an example, as bloody as it was, since the prince and especially the emperor don't care about lives. It was too bad for the soldiers, but they knew what sort of people they were serving. A few lives lost here will save countless later. It's not like they would be wantonly killing people, either, considering they made sure the senate building was empty when they bombed it. Like I said before, they weren't there to make friends, even if it seemed like that for a while.

The empire opened the gate and immediately proceeded to attack, slaughter, and kidnap civilians in Japan. Whatever happened later is a direct consequence of that. If they hadn't wanted to risk anything, they wouldn't have attacked in the first place. There's practically no way a country starving for natural resources like Japan wouldn't want to keep the gate open. The other world seems to have plenty of space free of civilization, so the Japanese don't particularly need to conquer the existing countries. They just need to make sure there's peace, even one born out of fear.

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-16-2016, 05:34 AM

MFauli

Sat, 01-16-2016, 06:01 AM

Mess with a bear while it's minding its own business, don't be surprised if you get mauled a little bit before it gets bored and moves on.

Grab a bear's cub? Well, you only get to try that once.

That's what happened here.

So we can stop pretending that this anime is even trying to depict semi-realistic international relations? Because that´s not how you do it.

If Russia had an American in prison, the US wouldn´t start an attack against Russia. Because that would mean war. They´d start negotiations, make an official complaint and proceed.

Again, all of this only slightly so works because of the enormous power imbalance.

Fuck the SDF, I hope some World Class Magic evens out the battlefield soon.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-16-2016, 09:34 AM

You guys are talking like killing people one-sidedly is fine as long as they "started" it. The power imbalance is severe and obvious. Itami or psycho girl didn't need to kill almost everyone there or torture (because that's what that was, and I'm pretty sure this is not allowed even in RL, openly at least) the prince to make that point. I'm not saying it's completely ridiculous because it does leave a lasting impression. But it is definitely not the humane thing to do.

Japan has been doing this all along, but it was kinda disappointing to see Itami being no different.

Kraco

Sat, 01-16-2016, 10:00 AM

It's an unfortunate cultural difference. These folks understand nothing but power and violence along with it. Or at least those ruling the place. I'm sure lots of the common folks would do just fine without a constant threat of some lord beating or killing them arbitrarily.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-16-2016, 10:33 AM

But the ones that were killed in that scene were soldiers, not the lords. I'd be more accepting if Itami had the prince, who was the obvious asshole, killed and then asked the soldiers to surrender. Some of those soldiers are likely normal people with families who work hard just like the Japan forces do. Some of them may not even be involved in the kidnappings at all. Now they are dead just because Itami wanted to make a point, one he could have made without that much bloodshed.

The part where psycho girl killed a few of the soldiers through their shields and then proceeded to slaughter the rest of them was just barbaric. It was like a duck shoot. The moment she showed that her gun could pierce shields, they've won that battle. Her call for surrender at the very end was comical because it was like a formality, done only to say in the report that she did it, but in effect saved almost no one.

MFauli

Sat, 01-16-2016, 10:40 AM

Just to make sure my point is getting accross: For all I care, Itami can give Kuribayashi the order to kill those guards, I don´t care. BUT: They really cannot proclaim themselves "the good guys" anymore with such actions. As shinta detailed, those guards most likely were not involved with the bad stuff, and even if so, they fullfilled the prince´s orders. Had he indeed killed just the prince, it´d have made much more sense. Of course, he didn´t have the guts. I wonder if he would have gone through with killing the prince, would that one have him further denied cooperation. If so, I think I´d have dropped this anime, if the king would have remained passive even then.

As of now, I´m on the prince´s side and hope to see some effective counteractions from him. He had contact with the Noriko girl, so he might know more about the SDF/Japan than we might think. And he´s not dumb per se. A dumb person wouldn´t realize and acknowledge that another person is more fitting of the throne. And the bunny girl is definitely smart, too. Depends who she´s truly loyal towards. If her and the prince work together, I feel like they could stir up quite some shit.

David75

Sat, 01-16-2016, 12:58 PM

if you watch the ep without the preconception that the prince is evil, you can even start to think he's pretty clever and manipulates everyone fairly well. At least he did with his brother and probably Itami. I doubt he did his father though.
The fact that Noriko disapeared before the first strike probably means she's been on the other side longer than we thought.
We know she had sexual intercourse with the prince, but we can't be sure how much of a forced one it was. Even the bunny girl abuse last ep might have been different from what we thought.
Now let's suppose Noriko was in fact teaming with the prince. The show of violence is placing doubt in Pina's head, shows his father the jsdf true colors, instills fear in the lower ranks survivor and will start rumors.
And the prince is very true when he states the invaders are the enemy. Because the true intentions are pillaging that world that isn't protected by any earth convention...

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-16-2016, 01:28 PM

So we can stop pretending that this anime is even trying to depict semi-realistic international relations? Because that´s not how you do it.

If Russia had an American in prison, the US wouldn´t start an attack against Russia. Because that would mean war. They´d start negotiations, make an official complaint and proceed.

Again, all of this only slightly so works because of the enormous power imbalance.
No shit.

This is exactly how the real world works. Don't try to pretend that Pina's country is to Russia as Japan is to the US. They got stomped in their first full incursion, and obliterated when Japan retaliated. Guess who that's like? Countries/forces in the Middle East.

The US doesn't pay for hostages. At best they trade them (which the JSDF in this series has been doing). But if they are engaged in operations in the region, they simply take them back by force. All the time.

If the Taliban had an American (or Japanese, or British, or Australian, or random NGO) in captivity, the US would attack the Taliban, assault the compound, take the hostage, and kill everyone inside.

Stop pretending this is a fight between 1st and 2nd World powers. It's a 1st world nation attacking a backwater 3rd world nation. And their magic doesn't mean shit. They tried it already with dragons and shit. Artillery and anti-aircraft weapons tore through them. Mages would get killed via sniper fire, the series has already shown Japan's sniper teams to be rather competent.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-16-2016, 01:44 PM

If Russia had an American in prison, the US wouldn´t start an attack against Russia. Because that would mean war. They´d start negotiations, make an official complaint and proceed.

If Russia went into America and abduct civilians there wouldn't be any peace talks unless that matter is setteled, and they'd be at war obviously.

And the Empire and Japan is not at peace at the moment, I'm pretty sure that there is no cease fire either. You do realize that they were about to shoot the prince when he went to the meeting?
The only reason why the Empire isn't getting stomped is because Japan doesn't want to stomp it and not because they are bound to a contract or something like that.

MFauli

Sat, 01-16-2016, 02:06 PM

If the Taliban had an American (or Japanese, or British, or Australian, or random NGO) in captivity, the US would attack the Taliban, assault the compound, take the hostage, and kill everyone inside.

bs
If the Taliban had American hostages, the US would first try to negotiate (not to the fullest, of Course), but they wouldn´t instantly attack, because that would endanger the hostages all the more.

@David: I would love for something like that come true :D

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-16-2016, 02:36 PM

Ahahahahaha

You're fucking funny. Pretending you know. The US does not negotiate. They assault (rescue successfully or end up killing everyone), kill everyone (including the hostages) in airstrikes, or prisoner swap (used the least often, because it only works when the US has someone they want).

When you're ready to stop lying in a pathetic attempt to justify your positions we might be able to have a discussion. Until then, you just continue to prove your ignorance.

MFauli

Sat, 01-16-2016, 04:51 PM

Lying? okay.

My Point stands: The US wouldnt start bombing the enemy when they´re telling the world "we have american hostages". Depending on who the enemy is, they´d start negotiations and/or gather more Intel to futher evaluate the Situation. And instead of calling me a liar, how about you drop the whole comparison and instead accept that Itami´s actions were nonsensical for somebody who´s trying to negotiate peace?

David75

Sat, 01-16-2016, 05:12 PM

It wasn't a nonsensical reaction. But rather some kind of programmed routine that activated like in the first ep.
He's a soldier, when a civilian from his side needs rescue, he does get a little violent.
And I would really like the prince or bunny girl be the ones to prepare a scene where Itami would switch into that mode.
They are underdevelopped, but that doesn't mean they are stupid and can't understand their enemy and can't try to manipulate them.

That's part of the stinging I was refering to. And it just comes from what we know of irl fights of huge powers vs underdevelopped countries.
Sure, they can't win, but they can make a hell of a region. That doesn't mean they are right, or that I agree. But it's a fact they are efficient in what they do with limited ressources: beign a pain in the ass.

MasterOfMoogles

Sat, 01-16-2016, 11:01 PM

I just can't believe people are actually typing some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread.

To comment on the latest point, Itami was in an emotionally charged situation, and he acted on impulse. It doesn't have anything to do with trying to negotiate peace.
Once that happened, the enemies attacked with the intent to kill and the JSDF responded in kind.

You can't just be like "Oh, these guys with shields and spears are charging me, so I'll just shoot some warning shots. Maybe I'll only kill one and wait a minute to see if they stop."

You would be absolutely nutso crazy to not be ready to fire with the intent to kill at anybody charging you when you're in the middle of the enemy base, completely surrounded by who knows how many people.
Even more so when you know they torture and rape their prisoners.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-17-2016, 01:16 AM

That's not the way it was presented. The nutso crazy one is the girl who used a bayonet to kill the first few soldiers before shooting the rest down. How do you explain that?

Shooting one or two soldiers would do the trick. The unique thing about the situation is the sheer difference in fighting power, which was demonstrated in that very scene. They weren't in any real danger, at least at the point where the girl decided to massacre the soldiers. It's fine to fire with the intent to kill. It's different when you slaughter obviously defenseless people. And the JSDF know they are defenseless against them after fighting them many times already. The crazy girl could've stopped midway during her killing spree, but only decided to do so when almost everyone was dead.

And again, the bayonet combat. That alone invalidates the idea of them fighting for their own safety. There's also the fact that they let one soldier fight the entire enemy squad when all 3 of them have guns. If they were in real danger, all three of them would have fired their weapons, don't you think?

To use the example you mentioned, it should've been like: Oh, there are soldiers charging at me. I'll shoot to defend myself. OMG, they are dying like flies and can't even come near. I'll stop shooting for a bit and ask them to surrender.

Instead it was like this: Oh, there are soldiers charging at me. I'll kill a few of them with the knife on my GUN, and after showing them how bad ass I can be while risking my safety for no reason whatsoever, then I'll shoot them. OMG, they are dying like flies and can't even come near. I'll just keep shooting anyway. Ok, no one is standing anymore. Time to ask them to surrender!

Just to be clear, I'm fine with Itami punching the prince and asking the girl to defend them. It was the needless killing that really made me dislike that scene. The prince torture made them lose moral high ground, but I personally don't mind him getting his face beat in.

Kraco

Sun, 01-17-2016, 04:15 AM

If he had been interested in moral high ground, he wouldn't have taken the psycho girl with him in the first place. He would have taken a Buddhist priest. However, he was limited to few people for practical reason so that their uninvited visit to the palace wouldn't look like an occupation. It makes thus sense to take a killing machine. A killing machine comparable to a revered holy person of that world, Rory. He again wasn't interested in appearing like a holier than thou person when the enslaving of Japanese citizens was revealed. He decided then and there to teach a lesson to these folks in the only language they would understand, to make it absolutely clear that if they kidnap any Japanese, the consequences won't be light and being a prince makes no exception. That is, the life of a random Japanese is equal to that of a royal crown prince. I'm pretty sure the message was somewhat received.

KrayZ33

Sun, 01-17-2016, 05:58 AM

The only problem I had with this Ep was that Kuribayashi charged in with her bayonett instead of gunning them down - once again.
I get it thats her "character" (or something like that) but no matter how you look at it, she puts herself in danger doing that, for no reason.
Her having an idol look and being extremely small doesn't help either.

I even thought that gunning them all down was the correct choice, it's 3 vs 20, you can't just shoot 3 *soldiers* and expect the rest to give up, they know death after all especially since we are in the middle ages where people die left and right... and it's not like they were in friendly territory either.
It's not like today where there is an outrage when 10 soldiers died in battle somewhere on a peacemaking mission.

I think it's kinda ridiculous to expect anything else.

Btw, maybe I'm being a slowpoke here, but I just noticed that Itami's Special Forces callsign is "Avenger" and him being in the Special Forces is actually not just being "said and forgotten".
Archer, Saber, Rider and Caster (who was the last one, Berserker?) are probably always the same guys and the same squad and Itami is part of that elite squad. Cool.

Ryllharu

Sun, 01-17-2016, 06:16 AM

Kuribayashi is a reckless nutcase, and that's the clear reason from this episode and the city defense one why she's still with the grunts and Itami is the decorated special operative that she desperately aspires to be.

But if you view that scene in terms of demonstration, it makes a lot more sense. You have Itami and the Japanese ambassador standing in front of the Emperor, his successor, several high ranking officials, and their first princess. She already knows what they can do, but a lot of what she's said to other people has been brushed aside as stories, until they see it for themselves at a villa party.

There were others there. Itami could have had Tomita back up Kuribayashi and finish the whole thing in seconds. Tomita only covers her, and never once fired.
Itami deliberately let her wade in alone, knowing she'd charge in with a bayonet. It was a demonstration in escalation of force.
- The JSDF send their "weakest" fighter, a woman.
- Their "weakest" fighter can solo a number of their soldiers with her own blade, not even using her terrifying primary weapon.
- When they use defensive combat, she fires through them in seconds.
- Itami then has Kuribayashi drop her weapon and beat the shit of a skilled fighter with her bare hands.

All while the Emperor looks on, seeing first hand the difference in their individual skill. Not just because Japan has super-weapons compared to them, but because they are simply better trained and superior fighters. A tiny JSDF woman can beat them with a blade, she can tear through their defenses, and even without a weapon she can beat some of their best.
That's why she starts with a bayonet. "No matter what we use you can't beat us."

The trick is of course that Kuribayashi isn't their weakest fighter, she's one of their nastiest (though poorly disciplined). But she looks like she would be the weakest to these people.

MFauli

Sun, 01-17-2016, 08:27 AM

Kuribayashi being so overwhelmingly stronger in close-combat than the guards was bs, too, btw..If theres ONE thing those guards should good at, it´s close-combat. And you cannot even say "well, those were weak guards", because they´re the freaking king´s guard or prince guard or whatever. Kuribayashi is way too "anime" :/

Btw is "moral highground" exactly the word I failed to apply. That´s what the SDF definitely does NOT have. And it makes me wonder how this show would develop if the fantasy world people would NOT want to welcome the Japanese members. So far, this anime has taken an easy road: Royalty is evil/oppressive, therefore it is a-ok to appear as the holy, innocent saviors. But that would change completely if the folks didnt see it like that. And just wait: If stuff like regulating STDs is followed up properly, there will be regulations and laws all over the place, that the fantasy people will have to obey, too. And if this show is any realistic at all, there will be A LOT of unhappy residents. Simple things like gastronomic hygiene. Then you reach stuff like "no weapons in the hands of civilians". And with forcefully ending royalty, there´ll be entire structures missing.

Really hope for a realistic portrayal of all that, one that doesn´t paint the JSDF as innocent and "good".

Come on, fantasy people, bring out more priestesses like Rory, but opposing the SDF. Now THAT would be interesting!

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-17-2016, 10:04 AM

I agree with Ryll. That entire scene makes more sense as a demonstration. So in a way, it wasn't senseless killing. Itami was making a statement that if you hurt a Japanese civilian, you are going to get owned, and this is HOW we will own you. All the stupid parts make more sense that way.

But that is exactly how I've seen that scene from the start. I still think it was needless killing because their power is too imbalanced anyway, and that can be demonstrated without that massacre.

3 versus 20 doesn't apply if you have friggin assault rifles vs medieval weapons. That's just a ridiculous analysis as the episode itself shows. Medieval soldiers may be used to death, but they sure aren't used to guns, as shown by every battle thus far. Add to that Jedi psycho girl, and I think those arguing that this was some kind of justified exercise of self-defense need to rewatch the episode. I understand that the interpretation they are asserting "makes sense story-wise or even in terms of realism." Heck, I even understand why you would want to believe that. But that wasn't what happened in this episode.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 01:01 PM

She could've killed all of them and I still wouldn't flinch the slightest.
It's war, waddaphuk? And it's not like your are freaking invicible just because you have an assault rifle even against medieval weapons.

She dropped a fair amount of soldiers didn't execute anyone that was lying on the ground and disarmed the situation, what's the freaking problem.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 01:16 PM

She could've killed all of them and I still wouldn't flinch the slightest.

This pretty much summarizes our difference in opinion.

People can be so numb to violence and death sometimes. What's one more soldier? Just kill 'em all!

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 01:24 PM

I just don't see why soldiers would need to unnecessarily put themselves in a more dangerous position only to spare a hostile country's soldier.
As mentioned, she focused on killing armed soldiers that were still standing and relatively close to her.
The dudes that got knocked out by Itami and the soldiers in the far back didn't get hit. they all survived, only the first two rows of enemy soldiers died, the first one lined up to advance on her, the second one might've charged in for all we know. Even if they didn't, who's to say that they wouldn't start throwing their spears.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 01:46 PM

No she didn't. She shot down everyone who was standing. Watch it again. Only a few people were left uninjured. Like you said, she shot down the first and second lines, but there were only 2 lines! She even reloaded in between lines...

Calling for surrender after massacring the first line wouldn't suddenly kill her. She wasn't fighting alone for crying out loud. If any of the soldiers decided to throw anything, her 2 other companions would've easily covered for her. And if you pay more attention, she was shooting soldiers who were sitting like ducks.

Face it. She killed everyone not out of necessity, but as Ryll and Kraco mentioned, a demonstration to show their power and brutality when offended.

Everything else, the bayonet fight, the fist combat, the torture, all of it points towards that conclusion. Insisting that she shot with restraint actually goes against everything else in that scene.

To summarize my opinion:
Would the enemies have surrendered if she asked them to after making an example out of the first few by shooting them down? Maybe they would have. Maybe they wouldn't have. We'll never find out now because she never tried. And trying was well within her abilities. She obviously had enough leeway to call for surrender in that scene and to react if the enemies do not accept.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 03:29 PM

She manages not to shoot at least 6 or 7 people.

While she's shooting them all, they're still charging her. When it goes to first person mode, there's at least one guy charging her with sword raised. And that's like 5 seconds before she stops shooting. The whole thing lasts maybe 15 seconds.

I don't think there's any question this was a demonstration of Japan's power, but at the same time, you're blowing it way out of proportion to say she should stop shooting while people are armed, in range, and willing to attack her.
You could even argue she went with the bayonet first to try to get them to back off. Once you start firing, who knows what they'll do. They could all do a suicide charge.
Of course, we know she's really just crazy, but still.

MFauli

Mon, 01-18-2016, 03:53 PM

you're blowing it way out of proportion to say she should stop shooting while people are armed, in range, and willing to attack her.

Because she moved into their range.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:09 PM

Because she moved into their range.

If we want to be extremely accurate, you should've noticed that they were actually surrounded from the very first second and the first 3 guys she slashed through were no more than 5 feet away.
But I'm not going to nitpick on that because the scene got reset so often, she actually reloaded 4 times too in case you missed it.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:11 PM

Yea, because waiting for them to get even closer and giving up what little ground you have in the throne room would be a fantastic idea.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:22 PM

When you guys manage to explain how taking the time to put a dagger on her rifle then going into melee combat before choosing to shoot (only after the enemies line up and raise their shields, thus rendering her bayonet ineffective) is a decision that prioritizes safety, then we'll talk. Otherwise, arguing that she was prioritizing safety (she obviously wasn't, c'mon) when she shot those guards is ridiculous.

Right now, you are ignoring every other part of that scene. The killing was unnecessary. It might be arguably safer for them, but that doesn't make it justified. Wiping out all standing hostiles will definitely ensure you will not get attacked. What I'm saying is that she could afford to let much more of the enemies live if she had actually tried.

Oh, and the throne room is actually huge. If you look at the aftermath of the scene, the guards she shot down were no way in range to attack her, especially the 2nd line she gunned down. Those spears are for stabbing, not throwing, but even if they were, none of the guards ever tried to.

Lastly, even if they did get close by charging forward, she would just Jedi them to death. That's the thing really. These guys posed NO threat to Jedi psycho girl. We all know that. She proved as much by stabbing a bunch of them to death at first. It was as obvious as the sun rising in the east. But she killed them anyway.

What I'm having trouble understanding is why you guys are trying to justify her actions. It seems you guys are fine with saying "it's war, so killing each other is okay." If you say that, then you've already made your point. There is no need to strain yourselves into proving that this was self-defense. It doesn't need to be. Like Ryll stated, it can be just like how the US handles things. Wipe everything that moves out and make a statement.

I'm actually taking the harder to defend side in this, which is that of peaceful resolution and pacifism. Strangely enough, we aren't arguing about that (an argument I'd likely lose because it IS war). Instead, we are talking about how the Jedi and her gun-toting friends were "in danger."

They weren't.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:41 PM

Some inconsistencies in the animation make it difficult to judge exactly how large the throne room is.
When the first 4 guys charge them, she seems to only make it a few steps before engaging combat.
Then in first person mode, the enemies seem very close as she guns them down. When it cuts back, they appear much farther away.

Nobody was charging them when she put the dagger on her rifle. Better to have a bayonet then not? As for actually just not shooting them there, well, she's crazy and likes melee combat.

In the end though, you really have no idea what the enemy would do as soon as you start shooting. From their perspective, it would probably seem like an enemy mage was casting magic at them. What do you do in that scenario? You probably all-out charge with all of your soldiers in an attempt to kill them between spells.
Once the shooting starts, you pretty much have to kill all of them that are moving towards you, which is exactly what she did.

Maybe if Kuribayashi wasn't as bloodthirsty, the scene would have played out like this:
4 guys charge.
JSDF shoots them.
Prince yells to charge them.
All of the soldiers charge, just as they did against Kuribayashi.
JSDF guns them down until they stop.

The outcome is almost exactly the same, just Kuribayashi melee'd the first 4 guys and then did all of the shooting herself.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:42 PM

Right now, you are ignoring every other part of that scene.

Just depends on what scenes we decide to look at
http://i.imgur.com/gBXRES7.jpg

doesn't look too good here, 1 civilian + 1 important ambassador to protect, 2 combat ready soldiers with ARs and 1 officer with a sidearm.
surrounded by armed (melee, swords + spears), trained soldiers some even less than 6 feet away.

That's the situation they are in, doesn't really matter how they portrayed the fight imho. The bayonett stuff was nothing but eye-candy. As mentioned, she reloaded 4 times, they didn't show it even though we saw the whole fight. That's just anime being anime.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:44 PM

Except a whole bunch of them weren't actually moving towards her when she shot them. The guys who just formed their ranks weren't. The 2nd line of soldiers weren't. And like I said, even if they did, she could have handled them anyway. She is a saiyan, after all.

How difficult would it have been to shout out while reloading (she doesn't even lose time this way), "Surrender and I'll stop massacring you!"

EDIT:
Okay, due to animation issues, let's just skip that.

I'll make the question simple. Do you guys really think Jedi girl and friends were in real danger? Itami and the other JSDF soldier didn't even shoot a single bullet...

If you actually answer yes, then I give up. You guys are just being stubborn for the heck of it. Every single part of that scene is directed and written to show the vast superiority of the JSDF, yet you somehow see it as them being in enough danger to not allow a single call for surrender in the middle of that massacre. Heck, even Pina's facial reaction speaks volumes about how one-sided this was...

And to top it all off, psycho girl actually put down her rifle, wore gloves, and got into a fist fight. All that time, any of the "surrendered" guards could have thrown their spears at her, like you suggested. Jeez...

@Krayz - And if you think the closest enemy is less than 6 feet away in that picture, you need to get your eyes checked. Unless you count the prince, and even then he looks a little bit beyond 6 feet. This doesn't really matter. I just wanted to correct your statement.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:49 PM

You can actually see people charging at her when it switched to first person, one was actually so close that he was about to thrust his spear into her... in the next scene however he is 20 feet away.
The line they made disappeared at the end too as there weren't any bodies close to each other and all of them were lying 3 feet away from each other as if they stood in a loose formation.
As I said, this is anime being anime.

The situation that matters is how it all started.

The *prince* (obey or die) ordered to kill/seize them, what do you think a soldier would do if he gets that command?
They were surrounded, had to protect a political figure, a civilian and were up against a much larger force that outnumbers them ~5:1 in a CQC enviorment.
She ended up reducing the numbers and probably spared more than 1/4 of them.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:55 PM

Sure, ignore everything else and focus on the numbers when this is ANIME where a single Jedi girl can bayonet a bunch of trained swordsmen to death.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 04:57 PM

It's you who can't differentiate between anime action scenes and a morally reprehensible slaughter, not me.

It's you who started this "theses poor families, they might've had kids" bullshit when all these soldiers just spawned inside the room as if it was a computer game. The throne room was freaking empty, there were 0 guards around.
This fight was all over the place, at first, they were really close... nearly at arms length, then they were 30 feet away, then they were really close again, then they had formed a line, yet their bodies were all lying on the floor as if they never stood next to each other, then they showed so many bodies that you'd assume there were at least 30 people, in the next scene it looked like there were 15 people at most of which 6+ survived.
She reloaded her weapon once, yet there were 4 empty magazines on the ground. etc. etc.

And they aren't friggin surrounded. The enemies are all on one side of the rectangular room. Unless you count Pina and the King, which you shouldn't.

Take a look at the picture again.

@Krayz - And if you think the closest enemy is less than 6 feet away in that picture, you need to get your eyes checked. Unless you count the prince, and even then he looks a little bit beyond 6 feet. This doesn't really matter. I just wanted to correct your statement.

If we want to keep talking about realism
looks pretty much as if they could close the gap at any time, hell 21 foot is too close when they are outnumbered like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGzeyO3pGzw

And it's not like 1 bullet will stop a soldier either. So even if they have fully automatic rifles or the weapon ready, it doesn't matter, they'd be freaking dead. But this scene was clearly not supposed to show correct - tacticool double tapping and was purely entertainment and supposed to show the superiority of modern weapons and soldiers over medieval grunts with swords n' shields.

Remember Italica? That Cobra gunned every single soldier down with his M134, no mercy either. And Itami was actually dropping his aim (as if the situation was actually under control already) before he got the message to evacuate. War crime? Nah...that's probably what military personal does in a warzone where you face armed troops and an engagement happened. People forget that throwing a stone can actually kill someone.

Kraco

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:00 PM

[/I]What I'm having trouble understanding is why you guys are trying to justify her actions. It seems you guys are fine with saying "it's war, so killing each other is okay." If you say that, then you've already made your point. There is no need to strain yourselves into proving that this was self-defense. It doesn't need to be. Like Ryll stated, it can be just like how the US handles things. Wipe everything that moves out and make a statement.

What exactly is self-defence in war? Technically you could say that every single thing Japan has done after the gate opened and the murderous horde poured through has been self-defence. Once they manage to get a sufficiently executed peace treaty out of the empire, the self-defense of a war ends. After that slaughtering soldiers would become a deeper issue as it would be done outside of war.

One thing making the incident in this episode funnier is the fact Itami & Co were invited to the palace by Pina. So, they were Pina's guests, thus her responsibility. Fortunately for our delicious drink princess nobody bothered to accuse her for it, at least not directly.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:01 PM

5 people (1 just rescued slave girl who can probably barely walk, only 3 with guns) in the middle of an enemy castle, surrounded by who knows how many soldiers throughout the castle at the command of crazy arrogant nobles.
Yes, they are in danger. At any moment, another 20 soldiers might have streamed into the room and attacked them from all sides. Assuming they're not in danger at all is ridiculous.

As you point out, even having them all surrender would be extremely dangerous, since they could just attack you later.
At the point she goes to beat the crap out of the prince, there were way less enemies and they were all basically in shock.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:04 PM

Sigh, whatever guys. You guys keep trying to twist the scene and situation to justify your arguments instead of basing your arguments on the scenes.

The bayonet scene and the fist fight scene still greatly contradict your arguments, while all you can offer to contradict what I said is "they are in enemy territory and outnumbered," which didn't really do a damn thing in the end, did it?

@Krayz - That was my argument to make. What you are doing is ignoring facts presented in the show. And calling the idea that "people have families and kids and should not be killed if possible" bullshit clearly explains your reasoning.

And yeah, I did take a look at the image and took that line out before your edit.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:12 PM

I'm just trying to point out that there is no reason for Itami and crew to think they're invincible, they are in a super dangerous situation, and they pretty much had to kill a bunch of people once Itami made his initial move to save the tortured slave girl.

Sure, they could have gone about it a little differently, but as I pointed out above, as long as the enemy keeps coming at them, they pretty much have to kill them until they stop. They're the ones being attacked, not the other way around. The prince or the king could have just as easily called for everyone to put down their weapons.

Just because Kuribayashi is a bloodthirsty crazy person that seems to enjoy killing people, it doesn't change any of that.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:18 PM

That's not the argument I was making. Her being a psycho has nothing to do with the danger they faced, which was pretty low. Your conception of danger doesn't apply (numbers, being in enemy territory) because they are far more superior in terms of firepower. This was, again, proven by the episode itself, and implied by the bayonet and fist-fight scenes.

You can't say that they did all that to be safe and sure when they also took a bunch of actions that threw safety out the window. That doesn't compute.

She didn't have to keep killing people because she could've tried to reason with them in the middle of it. Like I said earlier, she could've done it during a reload, which means she isn't risking anything at all. But did she try? No.

What I'm saying is that they never had the intent to go about it differently from the start. They wanted to pawn everything that moved to prove a point. It wasn't self-defense, and there was no restraint whatsoever. You can't say that sparing that final bunch counts as restraint because they were all on the ground. Killing them is plain old execution, and then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

The action in contention is killing the rest of the guards. I posit that psycho girl could very well have spared some of them if she tried. But she did not, and never intended to. I bet she even wanted to kill the ones on the ground but couldn't due to military regulations, but that's beside the point.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:21 PM

Yes, Kuribayashi probably fired for a few extra seconds than she needed to out of the 15 second encounter.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:35 PM

A few seconds that took lives.

If you don't care about the fictional lives of these unnamed guards, then that's fine.

But I'll go ahead and mourn these victims' untimely demise.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:42 PM

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:46 PM

It's not unreasonable for a jedi.

She can bayonet elite soldiers (royal guard) to death and box a prince 2 feet taller than her to the mat. She can judge the timing just fine. She didn't want nor intended to.

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:49 PM

I think it is unreasonable to expect anyone in that situation to have the presence of mind and self control to stop firing at the exact moment that it is possible to stop firing without getting killed.

Exactly. She stopped when it was obviously under control, basically when there was no threat around. That's the point she's supposed to do it and not a single second earlier. Everything else is a risk.

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

And that's just stupid to assume man. She would've been dead already if Rory didn't save her ass in Italica. So she obviously has to rely on her team at some time too.
I don't understand why you'd take that action scene seriously frame by frame when it's so poorly done. Start using common sense instead.

Kraco

Mon, 01-18-2016, 05:58 PM

It's safe to say we know now why Shinta isn't a soldier. Which is cool, of course, because times are good when people who don't want to be soldiers don't need to be. He's looking at this like it was a scene between police officers and criminals, not between soldiers during a war.

Though Itami is a relaxed fellow, but in addition to what I said earlier about choosing the psycho woman, maybe he was also even more smart and could possibly foresee the possibility of something like this happening on a deeper level. The king already prophesied valuing human life so much will bring the Japanese side problems. Now Itami did show that valuing human life in general doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ready to do what needs to be done. It would lead to even more loss of lives if the king/prince don't get this message and again try to attack in vain, thinking the Japanese don't have what it takes.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:01 PM

@Krayz - That was a hyperbole, in case you missed it. And I use facts shown in the show, not common sense that almost NEVER applies in anime. Yes, she stabbed elite soldiers to death and KO'd a guy 2 feet taller than her. That defies common sense. But did it happen? Oh yes it did.

@Kraco - It's actually worse. Police vs criminals actually have comparable firepower at times. That was not the case here.

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. One unit pawned everything. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

For fun, I decided to argue on the other side and try to explain the scene:

1) The bayonet scene - Shino used a bayonet to dispose of the enemies around her to avoid hitting her allies. Those enemies were surrounding them, and shooting at that point risked hitting something beyond her target, like the King, Pina, or even the prince. So that was completely justified, and not her going crazy like people assume.

2) The guard killing - Shino actually followed training. She didn't care about lives, sure, but it didn't mean she went out of her way to kill people either. Soldiers are trained to follow the manual, so she did just that, even if she did have the capability to spare people. It simply isn't what she was trained and taught to do.

3) The fist fight - This was obviously a show of power and nothing else. There was no risk of anyone interfering because Itami and the other dude had their rifles out.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:08 PM

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

I disagree solely on your assumption that there was no risk. Cuz that's not how things are in a situation like that.
I wouldn't say the cop who is 20 feet away from a knife wielding maniac is in no danger either.
I wouldn't assume that 10 soldiers with SMGs and ARs are in no danger if they face a mob of 100 that is armed with pikes and other selfmade weapons.

I agree that they arn't equally armed, but these 10 soldiers should be *allowed* to shoot every freaking 1 of that mob of 100 when they start charging you, unless they run away or lie on the ground, because it's them risking their lives, not the politician or the guy in front of the TV.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:10 PM

But that cop isn't Master Jedi Shino...

As I said above, you are arguing common sense. I'm stating stuff that actually happened in the show.

EDIT: To answer your edit, sure, they are allowed to shoot to defend themselves. I never argued that Shino should NOT defend herself. C'mon. I said that she could have tried to ask them to surrender, at least once, even during her reloads. What I was arguing is that she never wanted to or intended to do that, and thus never did it.

And I said little to no risk.

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:17 PM

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

Because you don't start doing that unless you think the situation has been cleared.
I've never heard someone trying to convince another person to surrender while he reloads his weapon, on an open field with no cover, while he is facing multiple opponents that are less than ~30 feet away. That's sounds so silly, I can't even imagine it.

Itami and his squad, or the ambassador, didn't shout either, because they might believe it's not the time to do it as long as things are out of control as they were during that situation.

And I said little to no risk.

doesn't matter, little risk is still to high of a risk in a war if the alternative is zero.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:20 PM

That's what I said in my counter point #2. She was trained that way, and thus reacted as such.

It had nothing to do with the danger, as you guys are trying to argue earlier.

Could she have done it (asked them to surrender)? Based on her prowess, yes. Could she have done it with little risk to herself? If she did it during reloads, yes. So it isn't a question of capability either.

She acted that way because it was what she was trained and taught to do.

EDIT:
I only mentioned it because you misquoted me and said "no risk."

KrayZ33

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:27 PM

EDIT:
I only mentioned it because you misquoted me and said "no risk."

Then don't include the "no risk" part?
Saying "little to no risk" implies that depending on your viewpoint, there was no risk at all.

She acted that way because it was what she was trained and taught to do.

That makes no sense... she is trained to fight until the situation is under control. As long as she sees danger, it's okay for her to shoot. She was allowed to "fire at will" but that doesn't mean she is allowed to do whatever she wants. *YOU* believe she wasn't in danger, that doesn't mean someone with common sense, or in the same situation, or the victim/the person under pressure, thinks so too.

I'm out of here for now, gn8.

Ryllharu

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:33 PM

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

I'm just trying to point out that there is no reason for Itami and crew to think they're invincible, they are in a super dangerous situation, and they pretty much had to kill a bunch of people once Itami made his initial move to save the tortured slave girl.

And that's just stupid to assume man. She would've been dead already if Rory didn't save her ass in Italica. So she obviously has to rely on her team at some time too.
Supporting Moogs and KrayZ33 on this one.

They already realize they're not invincible here, from the earlier time that Kuribayashi went berserk during the city siege and nearly got herself and a few others killed.

The JSDF was in much better control of the situation here, especially with the citizens of the empire literally and figuratively shaken from the earthquake that Itami and crew declared was 'at best a 4-point-meh.'

They had total control of the situation and exploited it to the maximum extent due to Itami and
Ambassador-san's quick thinking when presented with the knowledge that the empire had Japanese hostages.

MFauli

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:34 PM

You guys´ misconception (excluding Shinta here obviously) is that you aren´t willing to see that YES, Itami DID know about their own superiority. You keep repeating how this was self-defence, how they couldn´t have been sure about their own safety, how they had no other choice. All of which is nonsense.

I don´t want to repeat Shinta´s well-reasoned postings too much, so I´ll try and keep it short: EVERYTHING about that "battle" was a show of power on the side of the JSDF - hence Itami full well knowning that they were vastly superior. He played it ridiculously "smooth" when he gave Kuribayashi this quick, almost whispered order to ... take care of things. He knew what would happen and he was absolutely sure that there was no danger for Kuribayashi herself.

It´s not that hard to accept the following:
- Itami knew about their own superiority
- Kuribayashi is a violent psycho
- there was no need to kill all those guards
- no matter what, torturing the prince was entirely over the line.
- it was not self-defence and there was no point in time during this encounter where any of the JSDF was in danger

To draft how a non-aggressive, peace-interested agent could have handled this:
- first of all, NOT punch the prince
- if the punch happened and the guards do attack, shoot in the air.
- if they keep running, shoot at they feet, hitting them. It´s painful and instantly effective
- if that doesn´t work, shoot to kill. But be on the look-out to see if they´re hesitant about their attack. If so, cease fire.
- when that happens: "Stop NOW or you will all die! You´re powerless against us!"
- if that doesn´t work: Shoot the rest. It was self-defense

OF COURSE, that ignores the perfect path to diplomatic victory:
- do NOT punch the prince
- if he refuses to comply about releasing the hostages, TURN TO THE FUCKING KING!
- ask the king to immediatly initiiate the hostages´ release
From here, two paths:
- if you are here for future peace, explain to the king that this is unacceptable and that you will wait for his final decision within the next 24 hours
- if you are an imperialist, seeking to oppress the locals, just threaten the king, kill the guards, kill everyone that opposes you, who cares, you´re superior

That´s how you do things.

Oh, and at no point do you send one of your own "guys" into unnecessary close-combat. At no point.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:43 PM

Then don't include the "no risk" part?
Saying "little to no risk" implies that depending on your viewpoint, there was no risk at all.

No, it means there can be little to no risk, as is what is written. It indicates a range. Omitting one part changes the meaning completely.

*YOU* believe she wasn't in danger, that doesn't mean someone with common sense, or in the same situation, or the victim/the person under pressure, thinks so too.

And you think this girl who stabbed elite guards to death and KOs a prince was fearing for her life when she massacred those soldiers? Then let's agree to disagree here.

Oh one thing I would like to add, though I have said it twice before but was ignored, is the fact that Itami and the other dude did not open fire and left everything to Shino. If they wanted to handle it safely and avoid danger as you guys say, all 3 of them should have opened fire and neutralized the enemy as fast as possible. But they didn't.

Ryllharu

Mon, 01-18-2016, 06:50 PM

[The longest post I've ever seen him write]

...and look weak in front of the Emperor?

The leader of an empire who gladly throws their enemies at the Japanese to level the playing field? Who brutalizes and exploits their ethnic and beastmen populations after conquering them? Who treats their civilian population like shit? Who has no respect for women and treats Pina's squad as decoration more than the knights they (sorta) are? Who intends to retire and treat his successor like a puppet? Who abducted Japanese citizens secretly before they opened the gate fully (slaughtering dozens without provocation!), beat (and likely raped) the woman and sold the two men into slavery?

Yeah, they should negotiate with him and request whatsherface's return politely...

The emperor doesn't tolerate any sign of weakness from his own children. Why would he tolerate it from his enemies? Even after the Kuribayashi Berserker Display, he still correctly identified Japan's weakness...that I'm certain he will find a way to exploit in time. What the JSDF did here worked. They got out safely, they got their citizen back, and the Emperor was impressed enough to continue negotiations on the contingent that they determine what happened to whatsherface's boyfriend.

You don't ask warlords for things. You show them why your "request" should be agreed to. Anything less and they'll laugh in your face, or find a way to exploit you.

Step out of the 1st world once in a while. Oh wait, you're from Germany. The 3rd world is coming to you!

shinta|hikari

Mon, 01-18-2016, 07:00 PM

To clarify my position now that more have entered the fray, I actually think the massacre served its point politically. I just don't agree to killing even fictional unnamed guards needlessly. I just hate bullying in general.

MFauli

Mon, 01-18-2016, 07:14 PM

I´ve made longer posts in the glorious School Days-debate ;>

Yeah, they should negotiate with him and request whatsherface's return politely...

Yes, they should. All of the above you listed boils down to cultural differences. Since it seems to be the breaking point: Noriko wasnt treated worse than any other civilian of her status in this fantasy world. It´s how things are there. And that was the situation. There was nothing actively on-going, it was a mash of factual statements floating around in this throne room. Itami is the one who made it violent.

The emperor doesn't tolerate any sign of weakness from his own children. Why would he tolerate it from his enemies?

Then there are different ways to prove their power. And even if the kings calls to immediate actions, THAT is where Itami can give the shooting order.

You don't ask warlords for things. You show them why your "request" should be agreed to. Anything less and they'll laugh in your face, or find a way to exploit you.

He´s a medieval king, not a warlord. Again, cultural differences. Depending on your own mission, you accept or don´t accept them. But you don´t get to be the "innocent hero" if you choose the latter.

Step out of the 1st world once in a while. Oh wait, you're from Germany. The 3rd world is coming to you!

This is the essential fact you have to understand: In terms of military power, fantasy world people aren´t even 3rd world. They´re ants crawling on the ground.

Kraco

Tue, 01-19-2016, 03:54 AM

I don't think emphasising danger and self-defence serves its purpose in this incident. These folks are still soldiers, not cops. It's war and danger goes without saying for soldiers. It's kill or be killed. Otherwise there wouldn't be war to begin with. Cops operating during peace can generally consider things safe until the abnormality occurs, that is, they encounter dangerous criminals. Then they need to think of ways to minimise danger and in fact they also need to make sure even the criminals aren't damaged more than necessary because even the criminals are technically under the law enforcement's protection.

A soldier's function in war is to eliminate enemy soldiers, enemy infrastructure, and enemy progress. They don't need to consider the enemy military's safety or minimise the enemy military's casualties. They do need to follow treaties, more or less, but shit happens in war, that's a fact of life.

This is why Kuribayashi acted precisely like a soldier should after receiving an order from a superior: She simply eleminated all standing enemies. Once there were no standing enemies anymore, she asked for the rest to throw down their weapons. It's not her business to try to save enemies, it's the enemy's own business, but did they lie down or throw away their weapons by themselves? No, they didn't. The soldiers stood till they died, meaning they were still ready to fight. Those nobles (or whatever they were) and the prince weren't standing anymore and were spared in the end.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 01-19-2016, 08:58 AM

MFauli

Tue, 01-19-2016, 12:57 PM

Exactly. That was my #2 counter point. It's not about risk or Shino's capability to spare those enemy soldiers. She just did her job and what she was trained to do. Is it humane? No. Is it heroic? No. But it is believable. That's a good enough reason for me to accept those deaths.

I forgot to reply to this insane statement earlier: HOW was THAT her job? Putting on a jedi show, disregarding all sense of self-preservation and finishing a massacre with some glorified torture?!

If that´s her job ... fuck the JSDF and their training programs lol

shinta|hikari

Tue, 01-19-2016, 01:14 PM

I posted 3 points on my thoughts on the matter. As for how it is her job, I just assumed that's how the JSDF trained their recruits. I'm no expert in military training.

MFauli

Tue, 01-19-2016, 02:24 PM

I posted 3 points on my thoughts on the matter. As for how it is her job, I just assumed that's how the JSDF trained their recruits. I'm no expert in military training.

Im not, either. And I still say: That´s now how anybody in the military, ANY military, does his/her job.

Kraco

Tue, 01-19-2016, 03:53 PM

Im not, either. And I still say: That´s now how anybody in the military, ANY military, does his/her job.

You think Itami doesn't know her by now? He does, and he selected her nonetheless or more likely specifically because of this. Thus, it's her job 100%. Like I said a bunch of posts ago, Itami couldn't possibly take a whole squad of men into the palace, lest it looks like an occupation, not a visit. So anybody would rather take a natural born killer than some average joe from an average street with average skills and an average mindset. He might have taken Rory as the number two guard if she had been around.

Ryllharu

Tue, 01-19-2016, 05:25 PM

Kraco

Tue, 01-19-2016, 06:02 PM

Speaking of Rory, with the Empire soldiers and people of Whatsitcallednow Hill freaking out thinking Hardy was trying to kill them all, I expected to see Rory a lot more freaked out.

Instead we saw Rory comforting the harpy girl. She couldn't even handle the subway.

Consistency, where art thou?

Isn't she 900 years old or what was it? She must have seen a whole bunch of earthquakes. I guess she would have been freaked out if she had fallen into some fissure to get trapped underground (but then again, who wouldn't?).

KrayZ33

Wed, 01-20-2016, 06:36 AM

He might have taken Rory as the number two guard if she had been around.

Nah, he wouldn't. She isn't part of the military and he wouldn't drag her into something when he doesn't have to.

Kraco

Wed, 01-20-2016, 07:38 AM

Nah, he wouldn't. She isn't part of the military and he wouldn't drag her into something when he doesn't have to.

You might be correct from Itami's pov, but on the other hand Itami fails 10 times out of 10 when Rory herself wants to do something (if they hadn't been disrupted, you bet he would have even slept with her in the end back in Japan). Besides, although Itami probably foresaw a possibility things could turn ugly, which is why he took the psycho woman along, this was primarily a diplomatic mission in the sense of escorting the diplomat and Pina. Rory is a revered person in that world, so she would have been a good mediator. They have taken the locals with them before just for that reason, so it's not like Itami would be dead against it.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 01-22-2016, 06:27 AM

Rory doesn't like the underground because that's Hardy's territory. Earthquakes are kind of different.

As for the whole shooting thing, I agree that it's a display. I'm not very resistant against Kuribayashi shooting soldiers down. They're armed and had an intent on hurting her. They had their orders, she had hers. Asking them to surrender is actually rather kind. I expect responsibility to fall on them to surrender rather than Kuribayashi having to ask for it.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-22-2016, 09:32 AM

More importantly, who the hell names a god Hardy? This show has horrible naming, like Rory for one. Tuka isn't very good either. Let's not forget drink princess.

MFauli

Fri, 01-22-2016, 03:36 PM

episode 15 is out
-------------------

waiting to see how Kraco will defend THAT. Lol. What a garbage episode. Nothing of significance happened. Instead Itami treats Tuka in a way no mentally ill person should ever be treated: He lies to her, and it´s an enormously big lie, too.

This was all so dumb. Playing her father. omg.

And it´s also dumb that he takes all the girls with him to slay the dragon. The only one that makes sense is Rory, cause she´s stronger than anybody and invincible. Leilei may be strong with her magic, but one mistake and she´s gone. Not even talking about both elves.

ugh

Only interesting scene was in the beginning when we found out that the prince is new officially announced the next king, and that bunny girl is plotting something. And dat foot fetish.

KrayZ33

Fri, 01-22-2016, 05:30 PM

Instead Itami treats Tuka in a way no mentally ill person should ever be treated: He lies to her, and it´s an enormously big lie, too.

I think it's cool that you know the answer for a question therapist, doctors and care workers struggle with ever since people came into contact with, for example, dementia.

Kraco

Fri, 01-22-2016, 05:36 PM

I consider my imagination pretty good, perhaps above average, but I can't come up with a single thing in defence of this episode. It was so stupid. The weakest episode of the whole series by far. Going along with the bishoujo knights or the foreign kidnapping military squads operating in Japan back in the first season were nothing compared to this idiocy. There would have been a whole bunch of perfectly valid reasons or excuses for Itami to use, one was even spelled out by the glasses dude, yet this is what we got instead. I'm very disappointed. I hope whatever the author was drinking when coming up with this was at least good; god knows he drank enough of it.

Edit: All that bullshit made me forget the good thing in this episode: The warrior bunny. She seems to be quite a nefarious person with wicked plans set well in motion. Hard to believe she could control the prince as easily as she seems to be imagining, but who knows. Maybe she's indeed such a beast (despite being a bunny) in the bed that the prince can't help it.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-22-2016, 06:19 PM

But Itami's decision was consistent with everything so far. He prioritized the safety of his subordinates. He even explained the reasons why it would cost him squad members if he followed the plan glasses was thinking of. They weren't backed up by anything we've seen so far, but at least he made the excuses:

1) Enemy is powerful.
2) He can't send in a big enough unit.
3) Sending a small group will result in annihilation.

Unlike his subordinates, the harem girls are all personally invested in this red dragon hunting mission, so he let them go with him. So this is sort of a suicide mission motivated by his affection for jeans elf.

Kraco

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:09 PM

It's not a fricking boy scout camp. It's the military. If the brass commands men onto a mission, they go onto the mission. End of discussion. I'm also 100% sure the psycho woman wouldn't be the only volunteer he would get, should he have bothered to ask. But instead he's counting on his MC status to be able to shoulder everything by himself like a bloody shounen hero and to get him out of trouble afterwards since what he did was desertion, plain and simple. Above all, with proper equipment, one stupid dragon would be nothing. I'm sure this dude could have acquired a nice 6x6 or 8x8 APC with a jolly 30mm autocannon and a proper crew for it. Now he's basically setting out, realistically speaking, with the intention of losing his own life, the car, and whatever weapons and stuff he took with him. Instead of just some ammo and gas if the mission was properly planned and equipped.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:27 PM

KrayZ33

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:27 PM

It's not a fricking boy scout camp. It's the military. If the brass commands men onto a mission, they go onto the mission. End of discussion.

That's what he said too, but he didn't want to force his squad on a mission like that... which is what would've happened no matter how you look at it.
And he isn't deserting, because officially, he's scouting and looking for ressources.

I don't get the problem - it's obviously a way to get the plot and Itami's reputation going, but you shouldn't have any trouble understanding *why* he does it the way he does.

That said, I find it weird how these girls seem to care for each other. I don't remember any scenes where they seriously bonded.

They are from the same group of refugees. And they were together during the whole Italica mess, selling the scales they skinned from the dragons together. As an example.
Then there was the whole thing that happened in Tokyo, where they all went shopping together etc. etc.
This is Season 2 :)

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:35 PM

KrayZ33

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:47 PM

People shop together all the time. They don't risk their lives for each other, though.

I don't remember any scenes where the girls opened up to each other. Did they and I just don't recall? Or was it assumed as happening behind the scenes?

Hmmm, I'm lost at what you'd expect them to have said to each other.
They bathed quite a few times in season 1 and they've been the "girl squad" for the whole season imho.

You can tell they are BFFs, but I believe Leilei(?) and Rory are both going with Itami because of Itami, because he's da man.
Rory is obviously extremely interested in him.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-22-2016, 07:57 PM

Something like a scene where they talk about their pasts to each other or something? Let them go on an adventure without Itami? Those are pretty standard character development techniques. Just having them do stuff in the background leaves a much weaker impression in comparison.

Kraco

Sat, 01-23-2016, 02:49 AM

The assertion here is that it requires a large group, one Itami does not have, to kill a dragon with 0 casualties. We can't say that's not true because Itami, a person who actually faced the dragon once and some kinda super soldier, says it is so. Whatever we interpreted with the battle before, his opinion would logically overpower it.

He said it himself. No matter what choice he made, people would die. He just chose himself and Tuka as the sacrifices. The other girls just tagged along after that decision was made.

Nah, it's pretty safe to say this is simply the way the author wanted to take the story. It's more than obvious the author's extend of military knowledge is limited to what he has got from books and videos and other series. In reality armed forces send enough men and resources to get the job done. Only a nation fighting a losing war go for suicide missions and undermanned missions hoping for a miracle.

And even if some of his subordinates did volunteer to fight, they would be doing it for Itami and because of Itami's request, unlike the other girls who were with Tuka, the single motivating factor here, from the start. Dark elf has her own agenda.

No, they would volunteer for their own sake. Unless there was some gay person doing it for Itami, but so far we haven't seen any. He has no close female soldier underlings, except for the psycho, who would die laughing if it happened in battle. It'd be highly arrogant of Itami to imagine they would do it for him. The local girls are doing it for Itami, like KrayZ said, although like the psycho woman, Rory wouldn't turn down any chance to fight (except fighting Hardy, probably).

That's what he said too, but he didn't want to force his squad on a mission like that... which is what would've happened no matter how you look at it.
And he isn't deserting, because officially, he's scouting and looking for ressources.

As I understood it, he earlier refused the idea of a resource scouting party. You can't really expect anybody to take seriously that this one man is qualified for it unless he has a master's degree in geology as well in addition to everything else. Not that it would make this show any less hilarious.

He was supposed to be on his way to the capital, after being commanded to return there. Yet he decided himself he's not going there. Instead the HQ commander will soon learn Itami took a car, weapons, and food and went who knows where (since only the dark elf knows where). That is not how the military works.

MFauli

Sat, 01-23-2016, 03:31 AM

The overarching point is that WHY does the dragon need to be killed anyway? Why NOW?

If the military decides that the Fire Dragon is too big of a danger that randomly wreaks havoc where it appears, then that would be a valid reason to go after it, and it should have been the mission weeks ago. However, I find it offensive and insulting to even consider sending dozens of JSDF soldiers to risk their lives ONLY so that Tuka finds peace. Fuck her! She´s not that special. She has a trauma from (apparently; it´s all hear-say from the dark Elf, isnt it) losing her dad, something millions of people have to cope with every day. Sometimes those people get their revenge, sometimes they don´t. There´s a difference between catching a rapist-on-the-run who´s getting caught during a routine control when he tries to leave the country, and actively risking dozens of soldiers´ lives! (ofc I wouldnt put it past this show that there´d be like 100 male soldiers all being like "oh, ofc we´ll help you, Tuka (cause youre so hot)" :/

To conclude, the fire dragon is either a military matter, or it is not. Defeating it for a single girl´s sake is ... too shounen, as Kraco said.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-23-2016, 09:12 AM

No, they would volunteer for their own sake.

That makes no sense imo. How would they benefit from doing that? The only reason why they'd volunteer is because they don't want to lose a friend/itami and be responsible for it because "they didn't go with him".

As I understood it, he earlier refused the idea of a resource scouting party. You can't really expect anybody to take seriously that this one man is qualified for it unless he has a master's degree in geology as well in addition to everything else. Not that it would make this show any less hilarious.

He was supposed to be on his way to the capital, after being commanded to return there. Yet he decided himself he's not going there. Instead the HQ commander will soon learn Itami took a car, weapons, and food and went who knows where (since only the dark elf knows where). That is not how the military works.

I'm pretty sure glasses guy changed the rules for him and the "ressource operation" was never fully out of the question (glasses guy even said that he'll be waiting), he just made it more troublesome because it was a last minute decision. They know where the dragon is so it's not "who knows where" either.

To conclude, the fire dragon is either a military matter, or it is not. Defeating it for a single girl´s sake is ... too shounen, as Kraco said.

And thats not what is happening. The whole episode was about how both the military and Itami couldn't afford to send poeple to their death officially.
In season 1 they even talked about how the military would've to invest troops and armor to destroy that beast and that its a difficult thing to do, even though they know how much trouble it causes.
It's not like the JSDF doesn't *want* to get rid of it, they even said that they would like to help, but can't because of political reasons.

So once again, that he goes alone is clearly all about him being MC and to keep his reputation going.. (if we'd have a problem with that, we wouldn't watch anime or movies, because MCs are gonna mc-ing the shit out of every show)
That the military doesn't officially make a move here however, is a totally different matter and the reasons have been given much, much earlier in this show.

MFauli

Sat, 01-23-2016, 09:45 AM

(if we'd have a problem with that, we wouldn't watch anime or movies, because MCs are gonna mc-ing the shit out of every show)

Except shounen heroes usually arent part of a military hierachry, and if they are we get scenes where they´ll either get severly punished for acting out of order or have to quit their association.

Itami just does whatever he wants and thats just dumb and unsatisfying for how unrealistic it is. That´s just not how any military structure works. Even a high up general couldn´t behave like Itami.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 09:59 AM

Nah, it's pretty safe to say this is simply the way the author wanted to take the story. It's more than obvious the author's extend of military knowledge is limited to what he has got from books and videos and other series. In reality armed forces send enough men and resources to get the job done. Only a nation fighting a losing war go for suicide missions and undermanned missions hoping for a miracle.

The thing is, the dragon killing isn't an official mission. Glasses dude (and a bunch of random people who dark elf spoke to) wanted Itami to kill it, but no one else in higher command gave them permission or ordered it. It's supposed to be accidental. Thus, Itami cannot get enough people to do the job safely.

@Mfauli - Shounen heroes get away with a lot more bullshit than this just to get the plot moving. Remember the wish granting Nen to cure a certain protagonist of certain death? Dragon balls? Stuff like that happens everywhere. Sometimes, you just have to let these things go to enjoy what happens next, which is a small team of fantasy girls and a ranger beating a fire dragon.

Kraco

Sat, 01-23-2016, 11:49 AM

The thing is, the dragon killing isn't an official mission. Glasses dude (and a bunch of random people who dark elf spoke to) wanted Itami to kill it, but no one else in higher command gave them permission or ordered it. It's supposed to be accidental. Thus, Itami cannot get enough people to do the job safely.

Nobody ever tried to, Itami included. The military can only do what the civilian government authorise them to do, like I said a long time ago. But nobody ever asked a single politician if they might go and finish the civilian slaying deranged dragon that's even more infurious because the Japanese troops wounded it. And that lots and lots of people of the other world would ultimately be happy and thus thankful to the Japanese if the thing was removed. Instead the generals just shrug their shoulders and say they don't have a go-ahead to do it. That's like the lowest of all the low level excuses there is (comparable to going to a store and asking a clerk if they have some item, but the clerk would just answer "dunno" and walk away instead of going to the computer terminal to check their selection).

I'm objected to the way this arc is handled because up until now Itami never tried to sort out anything like this like a typical shounen hero. He did go alone with the bishoujo knights, but you can say that even if it was stupid, he still knew everything would be solved the moment they took him to their leader. Now he's alone (or with Rory) going to face the dragon they barely drove away with an extremely lucky RPG shot. Perhaps if he can find the thing sleeping he could put another rocket right in the dragon's face and be done with it. But how likely is that?

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 01:25 PM

I'm objected to the way this arc is handled because up until now Itami never tried to sort out anything like this like a typical shounen hero.

Disagreed. He has been doing it repeatedly from the very start. Even Mfauli is complaining how often he does it. To list down a few:
1) Bishoujo knights surrender that you mentioned.
2) Punching the prince.
3) Bringing the girls along everywhere (for the flimsiest of reasons).
4) Disobeying orders left and right but somehow getting away scot-free.
5) Relaxing in an onsen while being hunted.
6) Going out of his way to save enemy citizens and prisoners in the first parts of the story.
7) Letting Shino off without a court martial despite endangering so many lives in their squad in the fort battle.

I'm sure there are others I'm missing. The show basically introduces romantic-comedy/shounen tropes by making excuses even if it conflicts with the military setting (remember Rory sitting on his lap randomly at their first meeting?). It's nothing new. This episode is simply the most extreme in terms of how it changed the entire direction of the story (or at least arc).

MFauli

Sat, 01-23-2016, 02:55 PM

The show basically introduces romantic-comedy/shounen tropes by making excuses even if it conflicts with the military setting.

That´s the big problem. On the one hand the entire setting of this anime is the clash between reality and fantasy. On the other hand, breaking military orders in the most irresponsible ways is just too immersion-ruining. None of Itami´s behavior would be that much of a problem if he was a civilian. Him being part of the military is what makes for all those ... weird scenes.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 03:02 PM

Just don't overthink it. It's a world with bird people and bunny girls.

Kraco

Sat, 01-23-2016, 04:26 PM

I wasn't really referring to the whole spectrum of problems, some of them being much lesser than others. He has never totally abandoned a mission like he did this time, and disregarded any and all military wisdom by attempting to leave alone to face nigh impossible odds. Taking Rory with him is a step into the right direction, but not a step big enough. The other times he always had a team of Japanese soldiers with him, except for the bishoujo knights case, which was ultimately a diplomatic case since he knew beforehand it would end the way it did. Punching the prince was doing the epitome of what he's supposed to be doing: Defending the Japanese civilians.

What comes to the girls, he has even taken them with him for official reasons, to act as mediators. There's nothing particular strange about it. Though this is the first time he takes them on a purely battle mission.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 05:28 PM

Kraco

Sat, 01-23-2016, 05:58 PM

Punching the prince was rash. What if the prince was an awesome fighter and killed him for trying? What if the prince dodged the first blow and killed the hostage? That decision was not very soldier-like at all. It was totally shounen though. You could basically slap Naruto's face on Itami in that scene and it'd look right.

Wasn't Itami the Japanese equivalent of a Navy Seal or some other mofo? He ought to be able to punch a random prince. Princes outside of shoujo manga aren't likely any close combat experts.

With the girls, the very fact that he takes all of them around is completely shounen. It's a harem, plain and simple. The reason you mentioned is an excuse, and you know in reality it will never happen. That said, it is a reasonable excuse, and we as viewers are expected to look past minor issues to enjoy what comes after/from it.

Maybe it's an exaggeration in this show, but I was under an impression Western soldiers in places like Afghanistan and Iraq occasionally used locals as guides and to make things easier with random civilians they encountered.

That said, his decision this time is beyond rash and tops all of the other things. On that I agree with you. I just wanted to point out that this isn't a new thing. It's how Gate worked from the very start. It just escalated in this episode, especially in contrast to the episode right before it where Itami acted totally ruthless.

Sure, but this was too much. It's not like this would have been super serious from the beginning, so you absolutely needed tolerance or understanding, but there's a limit to everything. If this guy starts to solve everything by himself, the whole Japanese military force becomes meaningless. It's like, you know, once of those thirteen in a dozen shounen shows where a single dude saves the whole world when the rest of the 7 billions people are just idling with their hands in their pockets. I'd rather not have that.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 06:10 PM

About the prince, that's the excuse. The punch isn't something natural for a soldier to do then, but hey! He's a ranger of some sort, so he can do whatever he wants. There's a reason, but it's an excuse. And please don't forget that the prince is a huge guy. If this were more realistic, Itami would've been beaten.

About the guides, soldiers don't bring along a friggin harem. The harem is the unrealistic part. You don't need three girls as guides, especially if one of them is a logical bilingual mage (the only one you need). You can cite another reason the show gave here, but it doesn't change the fact that those are excuses. It was not done to be realistic. The harem exists FOR the harem, and it's not a natural development in that situation.

I understand and even agree to what you're saying. I just corrected you when you said this kind of thing wasn't happening before. It was. If this recent event went over your tolerance level, that's completely fine. That doesn't change the fact that this story had shounen tropes, including Itami acting like a shounen hero, all over it from the start, usually at the expense of realism.

Kraco

Sat, 01-23-2016, 06:39 PM

His "harem" was a representative of local humans and mages, a representative of elves (non-human humanoid), and a revered religious figure. He would have still needed one of the animal ears girls to make sure he covered as many bases as possible and assure the other party that he wasn't favouring anyone. But then again, they mainly dealt with the empire where everyone but humans were second class people, so the elf probably works for the animal ears as well. Like you said, this show is plenty shounen as it is, but you should still see also other attributes than simply the characters' boobs.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-23-2016, 06:43 PM

Uh sure, I never said I didn't.

KrayZ33

Sun, 01-24-2016, 09:34 AM

Except shounen heroes usually arent part of a military hierachry,

what :D?

MFauli

Fri, 01-29-2016, 02:08 PM

episode 16 is out
----------------------

alright, ive only watched half the ep so far, but the bullshit keeps coming and im so angry right now that I have to start typing so to not forget about it later.

First of all, when Yanagida reports to his higher-up and is asked "why is Itami doing that?", his reply is "because he´s an idiot", delivered in typical "well, you cant help it, can you"-manner. W T F?! This is not how any military in the world works! If I was a soldier, this anime would make me go out and kill some democrats. It is SO infuriating how this anime can never decide if it is based on the clash between fantasy and reality, or if it´s just standard fare and all the military stuff is nothin but fascade. People like Kraco here keep defending this enemy, how Itami and the military make sense and whatsoever, but THIS is not correct. In the military, any military, you don´t explain/excuse odd behavior with a "because he´s an idiot *smile*" reply. God, is this shit dumb.

Then we have the spy bunny girl, who is SO devote to her queen that she cannot even kill a single weak girl. Instead, she gets caught in a typical Naruto-esque speech and listens and listens and listens to this girl she couldn´t care any less. It makes no sense for her to have any qualm offing Noriko - that is what she has been trained, raised for!

Which brings us to the next fucked up bullshit: The tavern staff KNEW about her being a spy!!1 The tavern owner even thinks that he´s in trouble, but no, the JSDF soldier says "nah, nah, you have nothing to do with her, right? Go on." BULL FUCKING SHIT! If he KNEW that she was a spy, he actively helped her in her anti-JSDF mission. Not only could he and the rest of the staff prevented the attempted murder, who knows what she passed to her queen in terms of information?

This anime has a severe problem portaying serious matters. In a scenario such as this, not everything can be happy-go-lucky, that´s not how it works. People are killed, people are seriously punished, and before all, people do their duty and not what they enjoy doing.

Oh, I almost forgot the 4th point of complaint, although it is okay per se: So Yanagida wants the rights to all ressources that aren´t currently needed by the king guy´s folk. FUCKING LOL. That was maybe the most sinister thing being done by the JSDF in the entire series! It´s the equivalent to "Hey, you lucky native inhabitants of this unknown island, we´re giving you these fantastic, shiny glass pearls in exchange for all the useless metal you have there!"
I REALLY want a major character who then becomes a mainstay to point out that the JSDF is not "the good guys". I want that to happen SO badly! They are imperialists, they are conquerers. Nothing more.

Now on to the second half, eww...

Edit:

oh god, is this show trolling me?!
One of the pilots: "I´d wish we had those weapons with us that could actually damage the dragon." -____________________-
Drop dead, please. Oh wait, that´s what he almost did, when he kamikaze´d the dragon. Fucking idiot.

And Itami is a master therapist. So instead of telling Tuka about her dead father OR having her take revenge, HE COMBINES BOTH! In a lifethreatening situation with a Great Dragon about 30 meters away, he tells her that he lied to her all those couple days, that he is not her dad, that her real dad is dead. And then forces her to fire that bazooka. There are not enough "wtf"s to be given here. Wahhhhh!

And Itami´s fighting strategy here reveals what a dumb asshole he is. It´s exactly how I predicted: He throws Rory against the dragon, because there IS nobody else who could do anything against it.

Kraco

Fri, 01-29-2016, 03:42 PM

Haha, you need to drink a few shots to calm down, MFauli. Also, you don't need to teach me about the military. I've served about 12 months in the uniform.

I liked this episode more than the previous, largely due to the fact the generalissimo ordered all those troops moving to gauge the dragon situation. I guess he merely needed an excuse and the national hero Itami provided it. In the first place it's better to learn about it this way than to have it suddenly ambush some of their troops out there, let alone civilians if they really want to pump oil. Of course it helps they have now a formal approval from the sovereign of the land where the dragon abides. This isn't anything that fancy for the armed forces currently as long as they are merely hunting the dragon, that is, a dangerous animal and not getting into any diplomatic trouble, for which they would need all sorts of instructions from the politicians.

Looks like the warrior bunny princess tried to chew much more than her pretty but foul mouth was capable of, not unlike many other denizens of that land who attempted to mess with the Japanese. Bunnies would be better off being bunnies in any case. Delilah didn't really have what it takes to be a cold-blooded assassin and murderer. She was much better singing in the streets to attract customers. I hope she survives and somehow hits it off with Yanagida. It looks like he really didn't want to shoot her.

Itami is still a fool, though, that much is true. It's quite arrogant of him to think he can afford to mess around while facing the dragon.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-29-2016, 07:32 PM

That dragon therapy scene was the height of retardation. Why couldn't Itami just get Tuuka to a proper psychiatrist..? I really don't see the point of this revenge subplot. If the author wanted Itami's Angels to fight the dragon, he could've just set them up for an ambush or something simpler.

And what the hell was Delilah doing after stabbing Yanagida? She actually stood there and waited to be shot for some inexplicable reason, instead of, uhm, trying to escape?

I hate to say it, but this show really went to nonsense pretty fast. I'm fine with minor plausability issues here and there, but this time, the entire basis of the arc is bullshit. You don't cure mental disorders by making an amateur shoot an RPG in the midst of a life or death battle.

Ryllharu

Fri, 01-29-2016, 09:21 PM

I dunno. I felt really bad for Delilah, who has been one of my more preferred minor characters, even moreso now that we know so much more about her. Turns out she's not just a cute waitress spy (which we knew from season 1), she's actually a noble badass warrior-spy.

Her situation is quite complicated. She despises Tyuule for surrendering to the enemy that got all their people killed anyway. Moreover, Tyuule knows that Delilah hates her, and took a sick pleasure in secretly ordering Delilah to kill Noriko. It was only right before it all went to shit that we also discovered that Delilah didn't know Tyuule is still alive. This changes things substantially for Delilah. She might actually be the best person for resolving this situation, since she can identify Tyuule as the manipulative bitch that she is.

Delilah stood and got shot because she knew she was otherwise dead anyway. She's not a slimy bitch like Tyuule. Delilah has pride.

I loved that Japan has at least half-foiled Tyuule's plan without her knowing it, just because of fingerprints. It took them no time at all to determine that someone is trying to frame the Empire with these bullshit orders that Delilah received, and that the prime suspect is someone around Zozal, and not the idiot prince himself.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 01-29-2016, 10:38 PM

Delilah stood and got shot because she knew she was otherwise dead anyway. She's not a slimy bitch like Tyuule. Delilah has pride.

That makes no sense. She stabbed Yanagida in an act of desperation. Why not try to take a few more with her instead of standing there for no reason? Standing while holding her blade (instead of sticking it in deeper or making a larger cut) literally served no purpose. It was probably just bad direction, and it was supposed to have happened in like a split second or something. This show is notorious for that.

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-30-2016, 12:26 AM

Because she likes Alnus Hill and the people that occupy it? She reacted, and then stopped once she pierced him. She could have skewered him completely, but didn't. Yanagida shot first. They showed no sign that they recognized her until they were both on the ground (and later in surgery).

Maybe it is bad direction like you say. This is the anime, not the novels, so we have no idea what is going through either of their heads when this happened. We can only go on what we've seen.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 03:38 AM

Because she likes Alnus Hill and the people that occupy it? She reacted, and then stopped once she pierced him. She could have skewered him completely, but didn't.

She could not. There´s nothing that shows her stopping willingly. She was desperate and tried to kill Yanagida. But was too incompetent for that.

Oh, and what I wanted to say about the bunny queen: LOL. As much as she´s telling herself that it´s allllll a plan for ultimate revenge - letting yourself get fucked by your worst enemy will always be humiliating, even after you´ve tortured and killed the prince. Dumb bitch :D

Kraco

Sat, 01-30-2016, 03:59 AM

Delilah stood and got shot because she knew she was otherwise dead anyway. She's not a slimy bitch like Tyuule. Delilah has pride.

Now that I think about it, maybe she attacked a Japanese soldier (Yanagida just happened to be the closest one) for a double purpose of causing an incident in the hopes it would get back to Tyuule and the prince) and also hoping she would herself get killed as a punishment for hurting these folks whom she obviously had started to like. She didn't try to kill Noriko anymore because Noriko's just a civilian and because that would actually be following Tyuule's orders to the letter.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 07:01 AM

Oh, and what I wanted to say about the bunny queen: LOL. As much as she´s telling herself that it´s allllll a plan for ultimate revenge - letting yourself get fucked by your worst enemy will always be humiliating, even after you´ve tortured and killed the prince. Dumb bitch

You make it sound like it was her plan to get captured and raped. She's basically at the point where she doesn't care what happens to her or the world, as long as the Prince and Empire suffers.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 07:26 AM

You make it sound like it was her plan to get captured and raped. She's basically at the point where she doesn't care what happens to her or the world, as long as the Prince and Empire suffers.

Yes, that´s what that flashback scene showed us.

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-30-2016, 07:38 AM

Not quite. She surrendered to the Empire at almost the first sign of hostilities, when Delilah wanted to fight to the death. The bunnyzons got slaughtered and their town/capital burned to the ground.

Tyuule believes she's some kind of mastermind gaining power from the shadows (she took the opportunity to get close to the prince, the future heir), Delilah thinks she's a dishonorable manipulator and coward.

Problem is her schemes don't work as well when modern investigative techniques exist. Japan knows someone is trying to frame Pina, they just don't know precisely who (they think it is the prince) or why.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 07:48 AM

Mentioning the finger prints again, makes me remember: I´m still waiting for a sign of superiority on the side of the fantasy-people. So far, the JSDF is superior in every aspect. The ONLY person that´s superior is Rory, but she´s already an ally of the JSDF, so she´s of no use for the fantasy-people either.

Can´t there be some cool "Dark Knights" that wear special armor that cannot be penetrated by bullets, who can slay the JSDF forces? An order of arch mages with powerful and quick magic spells that takes down helicopters and jets in the blink the eye? It´s frustrating how weak the fantasy-side of things is, reducing it all to a silly cosplay-world.

David75

Sat, 01-30-2016, 09:19 AM

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-30-2016, 10:10 AM

[incessant whining]

Shut the fuck up about GATE being asymmetric warfare. That's the point of the entire franchise. If you want something where fantasy things and modern day Earth forces slaughter each other on equivalent terms, look elsewhere. Go read Fables. There's no anime or manga that does it, and GATE certainly isn't about to start.

You're like a goddamn broken record. Every. fucking. week.

You've made your point, you don't like the way this series plays out. No one else cares, and we don't need to hear it every week.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 11:12 AM

Shut the fuck up about GATE being asymmetric warfare. That's the point of the entire franchise.

That´s not the point of the series and I won´t "shut the fuck up". The entire point of this anime is to display the clash between reality and fantasy, but it can never choose if to actually display this properly or conveniently.

And you´re double-wrong: There doesnt have to be asymmetric warface - we just haven´t seen any of the powerful weapons on the fantasy-people´s side. Because that´s part of the setting: Them having access to magic and crazy shit. IF they don´t even have that, then really, what´s the point of this anime?

If the fantasy-side is so weak that they cannot do anything against machinegun fire, helicopters and jets, then what is that? If that´s so, it should be titled "Itami goes on a picnic with his harem", because that´s all that´s relevant then. Why care abou ANYTHING, when there is no conflict between equals?

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-30-2016, 11:28 AM

You're so fundamentally wrong I don't know where to start.

The premise and point of this series has nothing to do with fighting. That's merely grisly fanservice. Notice that the majority of this series has nothing to do with fighting and killing? That most of it is talking, negotiation, and dealing with people's problems? Bickering with the Japanese Diet, bickering with superiors, trying to persuade others to stop fighting because they're outclassed, maintaining exclusive use of this new "economic zone"?

This series is fantasy (or medieval) politics versus modern politics.
The Empire's Roman Republic and its Feudal Warlords versus the Japanese Diet versus the other countries in the UN.

That's why you're an idiot and we're all tired of your whining that your expectations of this series don't match up with what the author actually wrote.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 11:48 AM

Yes, that´s what that flashback scene showed us.

What are you talking about, that wasn't shown in the flashback at all.
The Empire invaded, they got slaughtered and taken hostage.

Stop making things up, thanks. It wasn't even hinted that she did it on purpose why would she even do that? It doesn't make sense, she is a chief already, why would she sacrifice all her subordinates for a "scheme" like that.

She is seeking revenge, and it can't be made any clearer than that. If you really believe she did it to rise in rank or some shit like that, I don't know what to say.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 11:51 AM

That's why you're an idiot and we're all tired of your whining that your expectations of this series don't match up with what the author actually wrote.

None of what you wrote refutes any of what I wrote.

And stop using the author for your argument, it´s not helping you. This is the author that had Itami play Tuka´s dad ...

Ryllharu

Sat, 01-30-2016, 11:52 AM

@KrayZ33
He was talking about the Bunnyzons there.

Tyuule's plan was the surrender and get captured as part of her ambitions and cowardice. Deliliah wanted to fight to the death.

@MFauli:
This series was written starting in 2010. Your whining isn't gonna change shit.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 12:01 PM

@KrayZ33
He was talking about the Bunnyzons there.

Tyuule's plan was the surrender and get captured as part of her ambitions and cowardice. Deliliah wanted to fight to the death.

I know, but she didn't have a choice unless she had a deathwish.
It's no where hinted that it was her "plan" from the beginning though.

I wonder if you guys have actually forgotten that she sacrificed herself.

And stop using the author for your argument, it´s not helping you. This is the author that had Itami play Tuka´s dad ...

this has nothing to do with the author and ryll didn't use him for an argument either.
He only said that he wrote something that was different from what you expected this show to be.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:12 PM

Yeah, well ... sorry for having the expectation of it being a GOOD show. :|

David75

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:19 PM

Not a good show for you.
An average one with nice moments, but that I'll quickly forget. Quicker than Cross Ange for example.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:22 PM

Oh wow, that is a harsh thing to say.

In my opinion Gate is one of the better ones recently. It's interesting, fun to watch and rather beautiful.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:25 PM

Oh wow, that is a harsh thing to say.

In my opinion Gate is one of the better ones recently. It's interesting, fun to watch and rather beautiful.

See, THAT is my problem: The setting/concept IS super interesting. Animation, music, voice-acting etc. are well-done, too. But the author took all that and makes the most stupid, contrieved bullcrap outta it. It´d be SO interesting to watch realistic events of politics play out between reality and fantasy. But that is ignored in favor of Itami and his harem. It´s frustrating.

Right now, my main motivation to keep watching is that the prince might turn out to be formidable opponent for the JSDF. And he got to bang a hot bunny girl that didn´t like it, so he´s my hero right now.

David75

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:33 PM

Outbreak company, mentionned weeks ago, probably was more enjoyable.

As for my Cross Ange comment, it left an impression on me that lasts To this day because it was supposed to be a trash anime, but with a rather strong MC and a base story that wasn't so bad after all, even if a bit "déjà vu"

Gate is the opposite, better production values and setting, but not much that will leave an impact in the end and not much of a scenario/story yet.

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 01:44 PM

Gate is the opposite, better production values and setting, but not much that will leave an impact in the end and not much of a scenario/story yet.

I disagree, the scenario and story so far is great. The anime will most likely end before it will get seriously interesting though.. but that's not really suprising. (see Overlord for example)
I'm actually more than happy that they arn't trying to fit a rather complex situation in so few episodes. S2 will probably end after the Dragon Arc and that's it. The only other option would be a hard reset with them closing the gate "as if nothing ever happened". I don't know if that's what the author has in mind later on, but right now, I wouldn't want that.

MFauli

Sat, 01-30-2016, 02:01 PM

They´re not fitting anything in the story, though. That´s also one of the weak points: The story jumps from one location to the next. It fails at building up a believable world. One episode, Itami is in the throne room. Next episode he´s running around in a city. The episode afterwards he´s driving a jeep towards the dragon. But there never are intersections showing how he got anywhere. It´s like a 4-koma comic strip was turned into an anime.

And I agree with David: Once it´s over, GATE will be forgotten very quickly.

Also, what´s with Overlord? No season 2 coming ever? :/

KrayZ33

Sat, 01-30-2016, 02:26 PM

One episode, Itami is in the throne room. Next episode he´s running around in a city. The episode afterwards he´s driving a jeep towards the dragon. But there never are intersections showing how he got anywhere. It´s like a 4-koma comic strip was turned into an anime.

You are trying to reduce it to that, but it's actually not like that at all, of course he is running around. He's exploring the new world and he's part of the recon squad. He always starts from Alnus Hill, his BOP, and we actually see him driving quite a lot having talks about stuff inside the car and helicopter.

Kraco

Sat, 01-30-2016, 05:14 PM

I don't think this is so weak at all aside from the grand freedoms the author takes what comes to Itami. Some freedoms would be given in any case as he's the MC and you can't really build an interesting story if interesting and challenging stuff doesn't keep happening to the MC all the time, but sometimes the freedoms are too over the top. I'm highly satisfied we got so much politics and diplomacy. The battles were kind of embarrassing to watch due to the hugely asymmetric power balance. So, I'm happy the story doesn't push fighting more than every now and then.

Itami's harem doesn't bother me either. Tuka has been a disappointment, but otherwise it's a nice collection. Only Itami's foolishness annoys me occasionally.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 01-30-2016, 06:50 PM

His harem is horrible. Only Rory is memorable, and even then she talks like a drugged slut 100% of the time.

Ryllharu

Sun, 01-31-2016, 05:03 AM

I dunno, his ex-wife Risa was pretty memorable. But that might be more due to Nanjou Yoshino than anything else.

Yao isn't too bad either. Big improvement over Tuka, who has been a complete waste of an elf in modern clothing because her personality is so bland.

I'm hoping for Yanagida x Delilah, assuming they both survive surgery (and why wouldn't they).

KrayZ33

Sun, 01-31-2016, 05:04 AM

Isn't Pina considered in his harem too? I always thought she is and I like her alot. She isn't stupid and pretty much invovled in everything so far, especially the politics and negotiations.

Would be a shame if she isn't. She is so capable, didn't even hesitate to sacrifice the 3rd Recon Team in Italica to gain an advantage.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 01-31-2016, 10:32 AM

I'll give you Pina, especially because of the dumb name, but the wife had too little screen time to matter. Dark elf is better than normal elf, but that's not saying much.

Now if evil bunny were in his harem, that'd be something. Also angel whore.

Buffalobiian

Thu, 02-04-2016, 10:35 AM

Her situation is quite complicated. She despises Tyuule for surrendering to the enemy that got all their people killed anyway. Moreover, Tyuule knows that Delilah hates her, and took a sick pleasure in secretly ordering Delilah to kill Noriko. It was only right before it all went to shit that we also discovered that Delilah didn't know Tyuule is still alive. This changes things substantially for Delilah. She might actually be the best person for resolving this situation, since she can identify Tyuule as the manipulative bitch that she is.

She knows she's alive. That's why she vowed not to die until she gets revenge on Tyuule.

MFauli has a point. I just don't give a shit about this anime enough to care about it like that.

Kraco

Fri, 02-05-2016, 05:07 PM

Episode 17 - HS

- - -- - - - --

That was quite a battle. As expected, none of the dark elf extras made it. It's kind of silly that Itami & Gang needed to slay the big dragon with so much difficulty, yet moments later all that firepower arrived. But I guess that's what Itami deserves by doing things on his own.

No wonder Rory doesn't want to get anywhere near Hardy. Can't blame her at all after seeing this. Giselle's reaction to her dragons being annihilated was pretty funny.

MFauli

Fri, 02-05-2016, 07:22 PM

The shittest episode ever. WTF. I can´t even muster the strength to list all the things that went wrong here. Makes me so angry I´m incapable of expression emotions. :|

Just the worst offenders:

- oh, how happy our heroes were that they survived the dragon fight ... who gives a shit about all the no-name dark elves that died, right? At this point, this anime is a parody on the level of Konosuba, only slightly less funny

- When I thought "fuck yeah, finally another apostle appears! Now the heroes cannot do as they please anylonger!", moments later she´s as weak as all the other fantasy-people that are not on Itami´s side. This shit is so frustrating. It was cool how the jets quickly dealth with the dragons, but I SO wished for Giselle to fly up to the jets and slash both of them into nice explosions.

- Oh right: CARRYING TUKA INTO THE VOLCANO - W T F?!? And nobody knew that she´d fire off that deus ex machina-energy blast (which was fucking dumb in itself!), so that´s not a valid reason. How fucking dumb was Itami to do that?! This impotent closet sex-maniac did his best to FURTHER traumatize this elf girl. Nothing he did should have helped her. Ofc it did, cause, duh, anime. fuck´s sake ...

- And how out of place Tuka looked. Seriously, when she layed on the ground, unconscious, I thought she looked like one of Heidi Klum´s top models ... just a useless, dumb bitch, who exists for no reason but her hotness. sigh

I will mention to points of praise, though:

- Rory taking damage that would have hurt Itami was good. That made a lot sense.

- Leilei losing her mind and going all "´MERICA! Fuck YEAH!" and using her magic to attack the dragon by herself.

Sigh, sigh, sigh
My one wish is for there to appear an enemy within the fantasy people that can counter the JSDF. It is so boring how Itami always wins. So boring :(

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-05-2016, 08:45 PM

I actually agree with most of your points, though I'm a lot less emotional about it. It could've been much better is the biggest issue for me in this episode.

And didn't Itami's truck have a radio equipped? Were they so far away that no one in the entire military was able to radio them that help was on the way? I don't think planting the C4 took Itami an entire day.

And you don't give rocket launchers to amateurs. Period. I was already imagining the chaos the moment he started giving them "lessons."

Itami, you shit head. How dare you hurt Rory like that. Fucking dumbass.

Kraco

Sat, 02-06-2016, 02:22 AM

And didn't Itami's truck have a radio equipped? Were they so far away that no one in the entire military was able to radio them that help was on the way? I don't think planting the C4 took Itami an entire day.

Lots of mountains and canyons. The fighter pilots could have established a radio contact, but they weren't on the move before Itami had left the car behind.

And you don't give rocket launchers to amateurs. Period. I was already imagining the chaos the moment he started giving them "lessons."

There are thousands of rank amateurs with rocket launchers in their hands in the world at this very moment. They are usually called freedom fighters, resistance, terrorists, or just regular soldiers of certain third world armed forces. It's the beauty of modern small arms that even an ape could use them. No need to be a soldier, knight, or a mercenary with a decade of training and experience to be able to kill efficiently.

Itami, you shit head. How dare you hurt Rory like that. Fucking dumbass.

She'll regenerate. Plus you can bet she has gone through worse many times during her long, long life.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 09:51 AM

Lots of mountains and canyons. The fighter pilots could have established a radio contact, but they weren't on the move before Itami had left the car behind.

Oh right. I'm not familiar with military tools enough to know the range and how interference works. However, shouldn't Itami know that? Then why the hell did he come up with the plan of having Rory inform him of the dragon's arrival if interference could block the signal?

Or is the very idea of the interference in that scene bullshit? I mean, the volcano had a gaping hole on top. I'm no expert, so which is it?

There are thousands of rank amateurs with rocket launchers in their hands in the world at this very moment. They are usually called freedom fighters, resistance, terrorists, or just regular soldiers of certain third world armed forces. It's the beauty of modern small arms that even an ape could use them. No need to be a soldier, knight, or a mercenary with a decade of training and experience to be able to kill efficiently.

I don't get the point you're trying to make with rocket launchers. The episode itself showed how stupid it is. Those who give arms to amateurs don't do it because it's ideal. They have no choice but to arm them. And can you really say that no one on their side has suffered from them doing that?

Moreover, Itami's situation and your analogy is completely different. An hour long lecture with no practical training for dark elves who don't even know what guns are before fighting a gigantic monster is different from arming terrorists. You seriously underestimate how dangerous friendly fire is with your statement here.

To top it all off, Itami decided to enter an enclosed cavern with a whole group of elves with launchers. Smart man.

If he had any brains, he should have left a few more elves with rocket launchers outside. Then they could've fired their launchers at a safer place (than a friggin cave!) and informed Itami of the dragon's arrival by way of the explosions. He already knew the dragon wasn't there before entering, yet he decided to bring every single elf inside. Why..?

Then again, he brought a crazy person on this mission and inside the cave too...

I'll give you this though. When I said amateur, I didn't mean non-soldier. I meant those without sufficient training.

She'll regenerate. Plus you can bet she has gone through worse many times during her long, long life.

So it's okay to hurt others because of your stupidity because they'll regenerate? And it's even more okay because she's been hurt before, apparently. Just a reminder, Rory does actually feel pain.

Kraco

Sat, 02-06-2016, 10:23 AM

I'm not actually trying to deny Itami's foolishness here because nothing in this arc wouldn't have happened if Itami hadn't had the brilliant idea of travelling alone to slay the big bad dragon that his whole team previously could barely deal with. So, it does go along with that lack of sense that he would arm the best he can these volunteering dark elves. In the first place, I reckon Itami didn't fully expect to survive this trip, rightly so. If he hadn't given those elves the RPGs, they would have been good for nothing but carrying stuff. It's also unlikely that against the dragon Itami could have shot more than once or twice if he had been fighting alone. So, having multiple people launch at once would be far better tactically. Too bad the dark elves, being the best warriors the clan had, were still as stupid as rubber boots and couldn't follow commands at all. But that seems to be a trait shared by pretty much every single soldier in this story.

They needed to fight where they did because the dragon's movements needed to restricted. Even magic couldn't hit the beast fully outdoors, let alone dummy rockets. The ledge was quite huge, so if the dark elves had actually been warriors worth their pointy ears, things might have ended differently. But instead they panicked like school children and it was game over for them.

The radio thing might have made sense. Rory was nowhere near the opening of the volcano. It's quite plausible such a weak radio wouldn't make it under those circumstances. They should have sent Rory to the top. In the first place not being on the top Rory would lose 180 degrees of the land she had to observe. Clearly one more of Itami's many oversights.

MFauli

Sat, 02-06-2016, 10:34 AM

All I want from this series is that a one point Itami fucks Rory. That´s all I want at this point :/

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 10:48 AM

@Kraco - They didn't need to fight the beast at all. Itami's plan was a very logical and smart trap. It was everything else he did that was screwed up. If your entire plan revolved on not getting caught by the dragon in the act while planting a bomb, you should make sure you get a notice when the dragon does come around. Heck, if he didn't waste time moving those swords around, they could've been out there earlier and bombed the dragon to death.

And I'm guessing those rusty blades were all magical weapons and thus could pierce the dragon's armor. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense for bullets to be ineffective.

@Mfauli - Not happening, sadly.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-06-2016, 12:09 PM

RPGs have probes? This show is EDUCATIONAL!

My favourite part has to be the pilots' banter:

-"these guys are smaller than the other one" (yes, we're not getting owned!)
-They're not our target.
-But they're chasing Itami.
-Hmm... fine. Let's kill them.

Kraco

Sat, 02-06-2016, 01:09 PM

If your entire plan revolved on not getting caught by the dragon in the act while planting a bomb, you should make sure you get a notice when the dragon does come around.

Indeed. I guess the RPGs were just an extra insurance. Too bad it was an insurance they needed since he failed to post adequate lookouts. But then again, the dragon was apparently bloody fast accoring to the pilots, so in a certain sense it was merely a matter of luck. Even with a lookout properly posted on the top, they wouldn't have had much time to evacuate if the dragon surprised them in the middle of the preparations, like it ended up doing. But then again, nothing says the dragon had to come back right then, so they might have as well needed to wait for eight hours. I guess the dark elves were cursed by some god of misfortune (called Hardy).

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 02:10 PM

@Buff - Won't a single plane with the right ammo be enough to easily destroy an adult fire dragon? Speed-wise, they cannot even be compared, and aren't missiles more powerful than RPGs?

KrayZ33

Sat, 02-06-2016, 05:54 PM

Probably, but then again, who knows. Speed doesn't really help that much in "dogfights" and the dragon is able to switch between speed and hover-mode whenever it wants too.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 06:07 PM

Why would they even need to dogfight it? They can just shoot missiles at it from far far away.

KrayZ33

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:02 PM

Dunno, that dragon seemed to be able to go mach 2, or at least whatever speed they can reach when the spot it, since he was able to keep up with the f4 for a while

He is supposed to have "tungsten-ish" armor too, which he clearly doesn't have unless the scales arn't covering his body completely.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:07 PM

- You wrote F4.
- I thought, "wut? The F-4 is 55 years old." I assume you meant to write F-14.
- I look up JSDF.
- JSDF is still using a large number of F-4s, approximately 70.
- I am stunned by this fact.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:16 PM

But don't missiles go much faster than mach 2 (or whatever jets fly at)? Otherwise, they'd never hit them.

KrayZ33

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:24 PM

I doubt planes fight at mach 2 :D

but they can fly faster yes.

MFauli

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:28 PM

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:29 PM

According to wiki, first generation air to air missiles are faster than mach 2, so yeah, they are plenty to kill a dragon. They'd hit before the dragon even knew what was coming.

KrayZ33

Sat, 02-06-2016, 07:43 PM

Didnt Japan just get new jets like 2 days ago, and they were pretty old models?

All I know is that they ordered some new F35s... which are freaking awesome.
I doubt we are going to see anything newer than the F4 in terms of airplanes here though.
Too expensive. I wonder how they got them over there anyway. Where do they even start from *shrug*. Didn't really pay attention to how Arnus Hill looks exactly, but I couldn't see a runway.

According to wiki, first generation air to air missiles are faster than mach 2, so yeah, they are plenty to kill a dragon. They'd hit before the dragon even knew what was coming.

I think the most common AAMs are close range though, 500-2000m or something?
We'll never know if the dragon is able to keep up with technology.
Theoretically however, if it knew what it's doing, its turn radius would allow it to break every single missle lock in an instant.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-06-2016, 09:01 PM

Theoretically, a dragon doesn't even know a missile is coming from 2kms away. From what we've seen so far, all my money goes to the jet.

Especially if the JSDF uses more modern missiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAM-5_(Japanese_missile)).

EDIT:
Almost forgot that a plane actually played a chicken race with the dragon, got blasted by fire, but still got back in one piece. Properly equipped, I'd say dragons are no match against planes. If a dragon could actually catch a plane, that chicken race would've ended differently.

Kraco

Sun, 02-07-2016, 04:00 AM

AA missiles aren't any epitome of destructive power. They don't need to be since our airplanes are made of aluminium, composites, and other light but rather weak materials, combined with the fact the vehicle effectively further destroys itself when it's trying to fly while damaged. I doubt they would really do much more than piss off this dragon, which could stand multiple hits from the RPG HEAT warheads. They would need to throw something like Hellfire at it. Or whatever the Japanese use. It would probably require the dragon to be landed or at least hovering.

Ryllharu

Sun, 02-07-2016, 06:08 AM

All I know is that they ordered some new F35s... which are freaking awesome.
I doubt we are going to see anything newer than the F4 in terms of airplanes here though.
Too expensive. I wonder how they got them over there anyway. Where do they even start from *shrug*. Didn't really pay attention to how Arnus Hill looks exactly, but I couldn't see a runway.
Fun fact: The only thing awesome about the F-35 is the avionics (and only the hardware) and how much money it is making for the manufacturer. Everything else about it is a joke. Slower and less maneuverable than a fully loaded F-16, inferior armor and armament to an A-10 (which it is supposed to replace in that role), the VTOL version does not work. The software will be full of bugs at delivery. The marines are the only people who still want it (barely), and that's only because they need something to replace the harriers. The A-10 just got another decade of life, despite the Air Force trying to get rid of them because they're not sexy but do their job well.

The F-35 is the new Bradley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars).

This series has shown the jets taking off. They have a full runway. The JSDF built up the military base area extensively after the first few fights.

The point of hitting the baby dragons with missiles was to drop them to the ground. That was it. After that they lit them up with the cannons to keep them there, and then the mobile artillery finished them off. They could have accomplished that with just the cannons, but they wanted to show off.

KrayZ33

Sun, 02-07-2016, 08:47 AM

I know, they still look freaking awesome.

I'm sure we'll all miss BRRRRT-chan though.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 02-07-2016, 10:13 AM

@Kraco - So they fitted their jets with missiles that would only piss off the adult fire dragon..? I'm buying Ryll's explanation more. It ought to at least drop it from the air.

Kraco

Sun, 02-07-2016, 10:58 AM

@Kraco - So they fitted their jets with missiles that would only piss off the adult fire dragon..? I'm buying Ryll's explanation more. It ought to at least drop it from the air.

You are dealing with a beast nobody has any accumulated experience of whatsoever. They barely know a few of its likely attributes from the earlier recon. So, nobody could say whether it would ground itself or go berserk and head straight for the closest target (or some random direction). Maybe the dragon itself wouldn't know since it would be all new for it as well. However, it is a highly mobile flying species, so its instincts would probably tell it to retreat promptly if it didn't anymore know what's going on. Landing would badly hamper its chances. It would have learned that much if it had ever fought another dragon.

What else would the fighters be carrying, huh? It's not like the Japanese weapon industry would suddenly develop new missiles against flying tanks. They carry what they have.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 02-07-2016, 11:04 AM

More bullets? Assuming they actually thought those would work. Jets aren't supposed to carry stuff they won't be using because it makes them heavier and less fuel efficient.

They already had a skirmish with the dragon once and saw which weapons worked and which didn't. You yourself are actually basing the dragon's toughness based on what you've seen in those fights. I'm assuming these military men are more familiar with their weapons than you are, or again, this show screwed up.

The scenario you're suggesting is that the military sent an entire force against a thing they believed they had no chance against, and opened fire with missiles that they believed wouldn't work. Assuming they are experts (and they are as soldiers), I think they had reasonable expectation that it'd be more effective than just pissing off the dragon.

Kraco

Sun, 02-07-2016, 11:16 AM

I have no idea what your point is anymore, sorry.

Even a 9mm pistol would be effective against the dragon if you could shoot it at its only functioning eye from 3 meters away. Obviously the fighters would be loaded with the best weapons available. They can't be loaded with weapons not available. They have a reasonable belief they might make a difference under the combined maneuver, despite the fact they didn't engage the dragon earlier because they know it would be waste of ammo, so they only gauged its abilities. Even if they could only make the dragon stop for a moment, it might have been enough to hit it with heavier ordnance.

What I said earlier about the AA missiles was in reference to the earlier posts that were concentrating on the fighter jet vs dragon battle.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 02-07-2016, 11:20 AM

My point is, these soldiers are supposed to know what they are doing. If they brought and shot really expensive missiles at a dragon, they had reasonable expectation it'd drop it from the air, or do something meaningful to it. Otherwise, why bring it at all? It's really very simple.

You said it'd do nothing more than piss off the dragon. If you were exaggerating when you said that and actually believed it could do something more like stun it or even force it to land, then say so.

And the jets did not attack the dragon earlier because they didn't have the right weapons. Now they supposedly do.

If you maintain (and you know far more about this than I do) that AA missiles realistically cannot harm the dragon based on what we've seen so far, then it's the show's fault for screwing up its weapon facts. That's the other possibility I brought up.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-07-2016, 12:34 PM

@Buff - Won't a single plane with the right ammo be enough to easily destroy an adult fire dragon? Speed-wise, they cannot even be compared, and aren't missiles more powerful than RPGs?

Answer: yes. Not sure why you directed that at me though (about better equipped planes being more useful)

Kraco

Sun, 02-07-2016, 12:53 PM

Like I said in my previous post, the only piss off the dragon was referring to fighter jets alone trying to take down a dragon. So, even if the simultaenous hit of, let's say, 4 missiles made it land, for one reason or another since nobody has ever tried it before, then what? The dragon would land and soon take off once more, all the more pissed off. Just like I said.

AA missiles typically rely on the fragments and blast pressure to cause damage. That's enough for the measly hulls of flying vehicles. It does little against armoured land vehicles, which this adult fire dragon apparently could be compared to. In my opinion they should cause terrible damage to the wings, but who am I to argue with what the show was saying?

shinta|hikari

Sun, 02-07-2016, 12:58 PM

That's the entire thing. This show is known for wrong military info, so I wasn't trying to oppose your opinion per se. I just thought it contradicted what the series is trying to show us. It's either you or the show is correct. I don't really care who is.

NeoCybercoin

Sun, 02-07-2016, 06:34 PM

Man you guys are analyzing this anime way too much. It's entertainment. Just shut off your brain and enjoy.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 02-07-2016, 07:20 PM

Wouldn't it actually be praise for the show in this case? If people didn't care for it, no one would even discuss anything.

KrayZ33

Mon, 02-08-2016, 12:47 PM

Wasn't their official plan to lure the dragon in with the jets, bombard it with tanks while it's flying low and rain arty on it when it's on the ground and finish it off with c4?

Just to add something to the discussion.
You could say these missles were supposed to get it's attention.

MFauli

Mon, 02-08-2016, 05:46 PM

btw i have to thank this anime. When I learned kanji for my Japanese test today, I chose to get the kanji for "itami" (pain) down. No idea if that´s the kanji for Itami´s name, probably not, but it motivated me to learn it, and it came up in the test :D

Kraco

Fri, 02-12-2016, 03:23 PM

Episode 18 - HS

- - - - -

Just who is in charge of that place? Certainly it didn't seem to be the emperor, nor the incompetent crown prince. Is it a slave girl raped every night, with her underling of an orc who somehow is allowed to freely roam the place and even access the emperor's drinks? But then again, from a modern perspective all that sort of stuff looks silly, but in reality it's not only technology and science that develop over the centuries, common sense itself does as well.

Aside from how useless the empire is made to look, this was quite an amusing episode. I gladly welcome Lelei character development for sure. She's cute. Sugawara's suffering was also comedic to watch.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-12-2016, 08:10 PM

Weren't poison testers standard for royalty in these settings?

The smart twelve-year-old girl development was hard to believe. Why? Because she was dumb enough to fall for Sugawara and his pearls in the first place. It makes no sense for her to suddenly be smart and mature now. Writing this kind of character twists requires proper foreshadowing and logical consistency. This has none of those.

That green pig makes no sense. Don't they have guards in that place?

Pina's intelligence is so hard to gauge because it fluctuates too much. One moment she's cunning and perceptive, the other she's as dumb as bricks.

I like the fact that the crown prince "claims" to have not fought back against Master Jedi Shino, but we all know that even if he did, the force would not be with him.

MFauli

Sat, 02-13-2016, 11:04 AM

Sigh. Watching this has become really hard. I could stop every single minute and write a complaint. I´ll focus on one, though:

Could these idiots PLEASE stop calling this "peace talks"?! It is not! The moment the Empire decided to not obeye the JSDF´s demands, the JSDF would forcibly make their ways. Nothing about this is peace, nothing about it is "talks". It´s villainous occupation, covered behind lots of smiles.
Now, I could understand all the high-up people involved her doing that intentionally to keep their pride in face of the common folks. But we clearly see Pina, the king and others to honestly believe that these are "peace talks".

On to happier topics: I loved everything involving the prince! He doesn´t have this typical aura of a dumb loser surrounding him (yet), so there´s potential for him to become a true threat to the JSF. I loved how he honestly cared about the return of his men - means that he´s not some 2dimensional hateface. And the look on his face when his father died, showed that he had no involvement in the poisoning, yet instantly realized the arrising opportunity.
It all depends on his general awareness now. Can he realize what his hot cumdump is up to? Is he capable of clever plans by himself? And what about his personal ability? Again, there is a lot of potential for him, but he has to be careful.

Btw what was that shit when Itami´s superior told him he got some girl as a reward? All of sudden, Japan´s superior laws don´t matter anymore? Aha.

And lol @ the 12-year old bride. Anime gonna anime.

I like the fact that the crown prince "claims" to have not fought back against Master Jedi Shino, but we all know that even if he did, the force would not be with him.

The way he delivered that line felt so confident, it honestly made me confused. I´m 95% sure that he couldn´t have fought back even if he tried to, but the way he said/thought that ... I dunno. And oh god, it´d feel so satisfying if the prince at some point got to punch the shit out of Jedi girl.

Kraco

Sat, 02-13-2016, 12:24 PM

Of course they are proper peace talks. In that world peace normally meant one side of the war had burned down, enslaved, and robbed blind the other side. Just like what happened to the bunny people. Now the empire, however, has a chance to get out of the war they started but practically lost by only paying compensation money, which is also open to negotiations. Japan can't very well follow the traditions of that world since the Japanese voters wouldn't approve of razing the empire to the ground and dispersing the people (since Japanese laws don't allow slavery).

The prince is a muscle brained idiot who actually wants to continue the war against the Japanese. The same idiot who leaves the bitter slave bunny princess to her own devices and even allows the bunny ex-princess to have that ugly orc as her servant. A bloody slave possessing an assassin servant. That's the kind of idiot the prince is. I hope he dies soon. It's a small miracle he has managed to stay alive for so long. Pina should get rid of her and make herself an empress. She might be able to save her hopeless people.

Itami's superior told Itami that the dark elf tribe had given the chick to Itami. It has nothing to do with the Japanese, who certainly won't acknowledge the ownership, which is why the generalissimo told Itami not to do anything illegal.

You don't anymore even watch the same show as the rest of us with your hate filter glasses on.

MFauli

Sat, 02-13-2016, 12:50 PM

The prince is an idiot for continuing the war against the Japanese? How so?! It is only reasonable to not give up in the appearance of an evil foe. From their perspective, the prince is the hero of this show, a rebel giving his all to win against an evil enemy that is all-powerful and without mercy for those that oppose them. I don´t see ANY wrong with fighting against this. And the prince seems smart enough to not just attack "Sugawara-sama" out of blind hatred. Actually, the whole way he interacts with his men made him look truely sympathetic. I cannot wait for his future course of action and I hope he´s at least semi-successfuly, because goddam the JSDF deserves something bad happening to them.

Kraco

Sat, 02-13-2016, 01:52 PM

You are trolling, right? You had me fooled for a moment there, man.

MFauli

Sat, 02-13-2016, 02:05 PM

You are trolling, right? You had me fooled for a moment there, man.

No I´m not. Enlighten me.

KrayZ33

Sat, 02-13-2016, 03:41 PM

Wasted effort.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-13-2016, 04:47 PM

Wasted effort.

I'm stuck here figuring out whether you're referring to this episode, or MFauli.

I can't come to an answer!

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-13-2016, 05:06 PM

When you can't choose: Both.

MFauli

Sat, 02-13-2016, 06:07 PM

So, you´re resorting to ad homines instead of engaging in discussion. Okay.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-13-2016, 06:10 PM

I've been asking people to do that for ages. Finally, they listen.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-13-2016, 06:15 PM

So, you´re resorting to ad homines instead of engaging in discussion. Okay.

I want to know what Krayz33 meant.

Discuss away. This is entertaining. I'm waiting to see if the prince can pull off as much as he thinks he can.

Munsu

Sat, 02-13-2016, 07:50 PM

Well, I'm catching up with this series now.

Just finished episode 14 and went to look at the impressions in this thread.

Good job guys ruining what has been one of the most awesome scene in this series so far, with some sort of fantasy of how war works nonsense.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-13-2016, 08:27 PM

What scene?

Munsu

Sat, 02-13-2016, 08:44 PM

What scene?

When Itami's group owned everyone in the Emperor's throne room.

KrayZ33

Sun, 02-14-2016, 05:40 AM

It certainly proved that I don't want to watch any kind of movie with you guys, so he has a point :D.

I wonder if I should answer Buff's question, hmmmm.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-14-2016, 05:47 AM

My money's actually on you typing a long ass post, which the forum promptly discarded.

As for the king dying, I'm still thinking perhaps modern medicine will shine. The preview didn't suggest that at all, but if it were to happen then to give it away would be stupid. In other words, the lack of suggestion doesn't actually mean much.

The bigger question would be whether Japan would bother saving him.

Kraco

Sun, 02-14-2016, 05:51 AM

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-14-2016, 07:16 AM

I don't understand what you're talking about Kraco..

edit: ooh, you're talking about Bud's post.

MFauli

Sun, 02-14-2016, 08:14 AM

How can it ruin anything if you read the thread afterwards, not beforehand? Bud Bauer can't be that susceptible to other people's influence. Not that most would have found so much fault in the ep, only MFauli, who wants all the Japanese slaughtered and the empire enslaving the rest of that world once again.

I want some sort of exchange of powers, that is all. Have a group of arch mages summon evil ghosts that cannot be defeated by the JSDF, because, well, they´re ghosts. It´s this kind of fantastical stuff that´s missing, and all we have are funny clad people that are inferior to the JSDF in every aspect.

Kraco

Sun, 02-14-2016, 08:45 AM

As this latest episode showed us, the mages, that is, probably the wisest and smartest people in that world anywhere near the gate, don't apparently want to get involved. An exceedingly wise choice, as expected from wizards. In the first place only the empire has been fighting against Japan (and the fire dragon, but it was a monster). If I was mage in that world, I'd certainly have not wanted to serve that wicked empire of scumbags unless I was evil myself. Considering we haven't seen too many magicians serving the empire, they really do share my sentiment. If Pina becomes the ruler, things might change. She knows what's it like to be practically powerless and ridiculed, plus she has likely sucked some Western influence from her time with the Japanese. She might be able to hire a bunch of mages, but not for fighting the Japanese.

MFauli

Sun, 02-14-2016, 09:06 AM

So your reply is "all mages are good". Okay. lol

Also, why isn´t there stuff like armor and shields made of mithrill that even bullets couldn´t pierce? Again, this enemy choose all the weakest aspects of a medieval fantasy world, and left out conveniently anything that might have given the empire a chance to viably fight back.

Maybe bunny and the prince can steal some of the JSDF´s weapons and infuse magic into them :)

Kraco

Sun, 02-14-2016, 09:38 AM

No, I'd assume most of them are neutral. Just like most people in RL, more or less. They would have little interest in the empire unless hired for specific jobs. Clearly they wouldn't have much interest in getting themselves killed in a war they couldn't possibly win since they need to be smart people to become mages. The likes of the crown prince can keep dreaming of opposing Japan because the wits of a rubber boot don't carry far.

Munsu

Sun, 02-14-2016, 02:20 PM

How can it ruin anything if you read the thread afterwards, not beforehand? Bud Bauer can't be that susceptible to other people's influence. Not that most would have found so much fault in the ep, only MFauli, who wants all the Japanese slaughtered and the empire enslaving the rest of that world once again.

Didn't ruin it for me.... ruined it for themselves with nonsense. The discussion in this thread has been entertaining to read as an outside observer, but won't complain much, any discussion at this point is welcomed.

Kraco

Fri, 02-19-2016, 03:31 PM

Episode 19 - HS

- - - -

Itami seems to be an advocate of the French school of strategy. But whatever as long as Lelei isn't hurt. It's strange he didn't shoot the crossbow man, though. A soldier with Itami's level of experience shouldn't hesitate anymore.

The bunny princess is deadly effective at making the empire rot from the inside, enormously helped the idiocy of the prince/new emperor. If she wasn't so evil and so ready to spread her legs, it would be easy to respect her. Excellent work nonetheless to have the new emperor oppress and slaughter his own folks as his first act in the job. I don't foresee that going quite as well as the dude is expecting, but exactly as the bunny princess is planning. Although that being said, it's a bit strange if she manages to live much longer. People frequenting the palace can't all be blind.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-19-2016, 03:56 PM

If she wasn't so evil and so ready to spread her legs, it would be easy to respect her.

This makes no sense. Why else would you respect a woman?

David75

Fri, 02-19-2016, 04:00 PM

This makes no sense. Why else would you respect a woman?
Loli and waki?

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-19-2016, 06:05 PM

A loli is a girl, not a woman.

MFauli

Fri, 02-19-2016, 06:26 PM

This anime has a serious problem making me like its "heroes". WHY would I root for Leilei against her sister, when Arpeggio is clearly the underdog here? Why would I root for the perfect little sister that´s better with magic, money and men? This is not a rethorical question, I really want to know. And it can be extrapolated to the overall story, too.

Why would I root for the JSDF, when they are portrayed as overwhelmingly powerful, having ALL the advantages on their side? When those newly appointed generals told the new king about their options for future operations, it came off so desperate that no human being with a functioning brain would watch that scene and think "oh no, you evil villains, I hope Itami and co. will ruin your plans!". Why is that so? Because we ALREADY KNOW that those plans will never work out. At best, they do as intended, have goblins murder villagers, murder villagers while themselves being clad like the JSDF soldiers. But then what? Of course, somebody will find out "oh, hey, this isn´t typical for JSDF soldiers, it cannot have been us" and it´s all back at the new king.

BORING

Fundamentally, yes, 99% of all anime have a happy end, where the good guys win. So the problem isn´t that me and any reasonable people expect the new king to win it all, to slay the JSDF soldiers and force them back through the portal. That´s not it. But for fucks sake, a GOOD, a well-written story demands a compentent villain, a villain the gives off a dangerous aura. I´d say the king and bunny bitch aren´t that bad of a a pair of villains ... but that´s useless when every single one of our heroes has plot armor and plot weapon as if everybody is Kirito from SAO. They´re all TOO perfect. And that was highlighted in the fight between the sisters. Leilei, one of our heroes, is SO perfect that the author couldn´t even grant the loser elder sister a victory in at least that meaningless battle. That is how perfect Leilei is. How perfect Itami is. How perfect Tuka, Rory and the dark elf girl are. They´re untouchable and it its gravely apparent.

In a hope for the story to actually become more interesting, more exciting, I´m trying to come up with an idea for what could happen. First, I hope that the generals´ plan works out after all. Even if the JSDF can confirm for themselves that none of their people committed any crime, hopefully they have no means to prove that to the Empire´s civilians. From there, we´d have a situation where the common folks of the Empire, not just the king and soldiers, would stand against the JSDF. So unless the JSDF intends to slaughter innocent civilians, they cannot progress in their shady plan of conquering the fantasy realm.
What´s important is that the king gains some wit. It wouldn´t be believable if he suddenly turned into a strategy mastermind, but my hope is that he realizes that bunny bitch is doing all sorts of elaborate plans behind his back and reveals that knowledge to her face. This is where it gets difficult: Is revenge against the king the only thing she wants, or can the king smooth-talk her into becoming his true ally, maybe offering her to become his wife, become the queen of the Empire.
You can badtalk the king all you want, but what he said and what he did wasn´t all wrong. Unlike his dead father, unlike his yaoi-loving sister, and unlike his treacherous brother, Zolzal attempts to protect the kingdom from an outside force, and overwhelmingly powerful one at that. Killing some of his own people to trap the JSDF isn´t morally okay, but as he said, it´s the only option they have left against an enemy they can´t face head-on. It´s what Lelouch or Light would have done, too. Well, maybe they could have done something where innocent people didn´t have to die, but Zolzal isn´t such a mastermind, so what can he do?

As I see it, the only option for an exciting story lies in Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up, understanding each other´s worth, and working a real sweat to throw all their ability against the JSDF and its perfect heroes. And I hope they can achieve that, because for the longest time, this anime had no excitement at all, just watching how a group of Charizard, Mewtwo and Zapdos kill some Pidgeons, Rattatas and Safcons.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-19-2016, 07:35 PM

You have too much free time.

EDIT:
Finally watched the episode.

To answer one of Mfauli's questions, you will root for Leilei because Arpeggio is a randomly jealous bitch who starts unprovoked fights.

Most of the episode made no sense.

Why did the crossbow assassin walk up to Leilei before shooting? It's a friggin' projectile weapon. If they wanted to make a scene like that, they should've made the assassin wield a dagger. Stupid author, stupid director.

Why the hell did that grandma keep saying "Ara ara ara" randomly the entire episode? I get it's an unfunny joke, but learn some limits, Mr. Scenario writer.

Why the hell did Arpeggio keep missing Leilei when she was running like a tortoise? Does Arpeggio's magic have no aim? If so, why even wield it at all?

The whole 3 night sleeping thing was absolutely retarded. Even the technicality pushed against Tuka was stupid. If Itami didn't even know about the rule, how does "thinking of him like a father" invalidate Tuka? And why the hell is Rory suddenly jealous? She effin' mounted Itami. She should've been bragging about that, not acting like an insecure tsundere while speaking like a whore.

That said, I like the lore of the multiple races. It's actually the only part of this episode that was worth watching.

Has this show always been this bad? I can't help but feel that the quality has been dropping drastically in season 2. Am I alone in this (excluding prejudice-incarnate above)?

Kraco

Sat, 02-20-2016, 02:48 AM

So unless the JSDF intends to slaughter innocent civilians, they cannot progress in their shady plan of conquering the fantasy realm.

When exactly was that their plan? They only established that single base around the gate, and that's where they have secured their dominion. Otherwise they haven't conquered shit. They have been visiting the capital of the empire in the hopes of negotiating a peace. So that the empire wouldn't anymore send thousands of soldiers to die in vain around the gate. Itami and his team mainly have visited other places, but could you list here which places they have conquered? It seems to me they have been helping those other places so that they wouldn't be conquered by bandits or dragons when the rulers of those lands don't give a shit about what happens to their citizens (which is more or less realistic during those times).

You can badtalk the king all you want, but what he said and what he did wasn´t all wrong. Unlike his dead father, unlike his yaoi-loving sister, and unlike his treacherous brother, Zolzal attempts to protect the kingdom from an outside force, and overwhelmingly powerful one at that. Killing some of his own people to trap the JSDF isn´t morally okay, but as he said, it´s the only option they have left against an enemy they can´t face head-on. It´s what Lelouch or Light would have done, too. Well, maybe they could have done something where innocent people didn´t have to die, but Zolzal isn´t such a mastermind, so what can he do?

He hasn't done or said anything, it was all planned by the bunny princess. The new emperor is such a laughable tool it's not even really funny. He's so stupid and so blinded by his own petty ambition and greed he doesn't even realise the plan he's following is designed from the beginning to ruin the whole empire. Which leads us to your next point of:

As I see it, the only option for an exciting story lies in Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up, understanding each other´s worth, and working a real sweat to throw all their ability against the JSDF and its perfect heroes. And I hope they can achieve that, because for the longest time, this anime had no excitement at all, just watching how a group of Charizard, Mewtwo and Zapdos kill some Pidgeons, Rattatas and Safcons.

The bunny princess's plan is to see the whole empire get destroyed, not just a single man. If she had only been interested in getting rid of the prince (now emperor), she could have killed him a hundred times already. She was fricking able to kill the old emperor in front of all those people and still walk free, no, gain a position where she's dealing out the new emperor's orders and have bureaucrats complain and discuss the orders with her, a slave, instead of attempting to get to the emperor himself. Technically she's still in a position where a single whim of the emperor could get her head rolling, but all things considered, it's quite unlikely the emperor would do that considering how ridiculously much he's relying on her. All to his own demise, naturally. So, why would she ever work together with the idiot emperor to save anything? That would be the most ridiculous plot twist ever. If she wasn't so evil, she would escape the palace and ask the Japanese to save her people.

So, the Japanese would actually save the empire if they got rid of the new emperor and the bunny princess, but I don't think they will do that. It's something the folks of the empire will need to do by themselves. The Japanese will simply get rid of the people the empire will send to harass the villages. Who knows, maybe they will again bomb some building in the empire to send a message, but that's only if such a message would be meaningful. As things stand now, the bunny princess would make the emperor use it for further propaganda, so it might be useless.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-20-2016, 03:49 AM

btw, the King ain't dead. Japanese medicine is going to raise his ass.

MFauli

Sat, 02-20-2016, 06:05 AM

To answer one of Mfauli's questions, you will root for Leilei because Arpeggio is a randomly jealous bitch who starts unprovoked fights.

She has every justification to be jealous. Leilei was painted as so perfect, I can´t fathom how anybody would root for her. It´s as if you were rooting for the evil step sisters instead of Cinderella.

Has this show always been this bad? I can't help but feel that the quality has been dropping drastically in season 2. Am I alone in this (excluding prejudice-incarnate above)?

Yes, it has always been this bad. The difference to season 1 is that there was hope that it´d develop into something better down the road, because of the enormous potential of the setting. Instead, the author kept focusing on the worst parts of the story (Itami and his harem).

When exactly was that their plan?

I take it you forgot about the bits from reality, where lots of politicians had talks about taking the newly found land, like colonies back in the days. All for the untapped ressources. Something that, what´s his name again, the JSDF guy who got stabbed, already worked towards in the most disgusting ways ("i give you worthless glass pearls, you give me all your silver mines").
The JSDF is out there to conquer, and it´d be interesting to see what they´d to if the PEOPLE, not only aristocrats, opposed them. Maybe finally the curtain would fall and reveal the true nature of the JSDF that is anything but friendly and peaceful.

He hasn't done or said anything, it was all planned by the bunny princess. The new emperor is such a laughable tool it's not even really funny. He's so stupid and so blinded by his own petty ambition and greed he doesn't even realise the plan he's following is designed from the beginning to ruin the whole empire.

I think you´re doing a whole lot of projecting here. For starters, calling his ambition "petty" is unfair. It is his ambition, full stop. It´s no more petty than a shounen hero stating at the beginning of a story "We will save the world. I don´t know how atm, but I swear, we will save everybody!". That´s not petty, it´s admirable. Furthermore, stop accusing him of being dumb for not realizing Tyuule´s true itentions. I know, I know, crappy writing would make it so that somebody like Itami would instantly find out about her. But in a realistic scenario, she is a sneaky mastermind at being sneaky. So there´s no shame in not finding out about her. Last but not least, again, the new king´s options are pretty limited. Those two plans sound too simple, but what´s he gonna do that could effectively work towards keeping the JSDF away?

Technically she's still in a position where a single whim of the emperor could get her head rolling, but all things considered, it's quite unlikely the emperor would do that considering how ridiculously much he's relying on her. All to his own demise, naturally. So, why would she ever work together with the idiot emperor to save anything? That would be the most ridiculous plot twist ever.

Nah, it´d would be far from "most ridiculous plot twist". Remember Tuuka´s treatment by Itami acting has her father, bringing her to utmost vicinity of the fire dragon, then having her fire a bazooka, untrained? Nothing will take this cake. But back to the point: It´s all about desires. What is it that Tyuule wants the most? As I understand it, the Empire decimated her village or whatever, her clan, and she´s out for revenge and wants to take down the Empire. That´s a plan she made when there were only two factions, the Empire and herself. Now a super powerful outside faction has appeared. A force that the Empire stands no chance against. You´re talking about bringing up any silly plans that would nurture the ruin of the Empire, but shouldn´t we assume that she´s intelligent enough to realize the following: Just do NOTHING and the JSDF will overtake the Empire/will change it in its ways. Her strife for revenge has become obsolte with the appearance of the JSDF.
Two important things have changed: The JSDF appeared, and the old king died.
Let´s play this out: "I am Tyuule. I want revenge on the Empire. But not only aristocrats, because I could have killed those a long time ago. I want to take down the entire Empire, all of its people, just like they killed all of my people. Oh no, this overwhelming enemy from the portal appeared! They want to make peace with the Empire! That would mean that it´d become even more stable! From how these strangers treat their own people, it´s unlikely they would ever attack Empire civilians, so I cannot trick them into attacking them. Hm, that only leaves me one option: Help the Empire to somehow successfully push back those intruders. Anything else would lead to more stability for the Empire. So fuck the JSDF for trying to screw with my revenge plans!"

That´s it. If the JSDF is successful, Tyuule won´t ever have her desired revenge. And that´s where I could see her change her original plans. When you cannot take down the Empire, at least make it your own. The worst option would be letting the JSDF proceed as they wished, as that would lead to more stability that no bunny bitch could ever destroy again. And then you have Zolzal, who´s not as clever, but strong-willed, strong-hearted, who wants to lead a strong, proud kingdom. What he lacks in wits, he makes up with in ambition, will, and power. The perfect opposite of Tyuule, who´s weak, sneaky, and narrow-minded, but clever, intelligent and ambitious in her own way. Even if neither of them realize atm, they´d make a great couple. Tbh I´d love to see a scene where Zolzal apologizes to her for what happened to her people. Would leave Tyuule speechless, I guess :D

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-20-2016, 06:40 AM

I'm on MFauli's side regarding the Lelena sisters. Arpeggio is very likable despite her jealousy (which is just fun). She's completely justified in it too. Arpeggio has worked harder and longer than her sister, but Lelei has been written as such a perfect little genius, who grasps everything instantly despite having remarkably BORING magic.

For a while, we really had to assume that the only magic was Lelei's (and the geezer's) style. We knew Tuka had fairy elf magic (which turned out to be pretty badass druid powers), and we knew Rory had divine power. That's it. What does Lelei do? Telekinesis. That's it. And that's all we saw when she fought the dragon, and that's all we saw when she just fought her sister. Levitations, telekinetic bursts, and telekinetic blasts that are area thrusts (they weren't explosions, the animation was pretty clear here, as was the damage).

Arpeggio's magic is far more varied, and the obnoxious granny (HOLY SHIT STFU!) described it pretty well. Arpeggio studies and manipulates minerals to shortcut magical casts (she's actually continually casting with her chain flail. That's cool!), producing a lot of different effects with a lot more grace that Lelei. She produced a lovely string of Axel Shooters. It may have ended with a tie, but if Arpeggio had hesitated a little longer with the coin sneak attack, she would have knocked Lelei out because she would have had no time to dodge.

So you have the one sister who works her ass off, scrapes by because her specialty is expensive, but develops a lot of technique and is considered an expert in her field. You have the other sister who is described (but never proven) to be a genius, has an equally varied but less diverse skill set, who had a great discovery dropped in her lap. Did anyone notice what Lelei's presentation was going to be about? She brought a computer. She's going to show the mages how they can incorporate transistor technology and apply it to magic. She didn't discover shit! She'll easily be granted the rank of Master before her sister with grade school Show and Tell.

Lelei was right that she was able to get more experience than Arpeggio because she was wandering while her sister stayed put in the city. I'll give her that. But Lelei is a "genius" and gets things handed to her by random chance, while Arpeggio has been working to better herself. The only reason that Lelei has made all these recent accomplishments is because she was rescued by the Japanese. That's it. No wonder Arpeggio is a "jealous bitch who starts unprovoked fights." But it's not random.

Shorter notes:
- The granny was INCREDIBLY annoying. It was bad last episode, but I can't stand her. I normally like "ara ara" characters. It's her goddamn voice and tone. She's not teasing like good "ara ara" characters. She's just an old, dumb, ditz.

- When are Yanagida and Delilah going to wake up, or at least be seen again? She has to be a critical part of ending Tyuule's schemes because she knows exactly the kind of person she is. She can shortcut the whole process just by being interrogated about the assassination she attempted. "Oh, you saw one of my people as a slave at the Prince's side? She's a manipulating bitch, watch out for bullshit." Japanese Politics Counterattack then follows.

- The annoying granny was good for one thing. She told us the Gate has the potential to close at any time now. Humans were the last to come. Humans opened it again. The more the JSDF pushes stuff back and forth through it, won't it hasten the time it goes to hibernate?

- The series is seriously the two wars in Afghanistan. Insurgents doing insurgent things to frame their opponents.

MFauli

Sat, 02-20-2016, 08:21 AM

Thx for the more detailed Arpeggio analysis, Ryll, fully agreed. And I really like her, too. I never liked genius/prodigy characters, though. Be it Neji, Sasuke, Kirito, Byakuya, or the many others. It´s so much more enjoyable to watch a miserable, but strong-hearted hero eventually grow strong. Arpeggio is all that, she just never got the chance to go out on an adventure. It´s actually really sad how such a great girl is wasted in that dead-end business of hers. :(

Btw. I totally forgot about the "portal closing and opening". Was there any mention about how long it stays open? This is SUPER IMPORTANT news for the JSDF! Unless they find a way to keep it open (which would be so much bullshit), they can forget about all their conquering plans :D Fuck you, JSDF! Haha!
And suddenly it makes a whole lot sense for Zolzal to keep fighting for his kingdom. He only has to keep up the resistance until the portal closes.

The only problem would be if the JSDF throws millions of tons of military equipment into their world and leaves some of their men, only to spite Zolzal. Which wouldn´t fit the attitude shown so far.

Keep it up, Zolzal, time is working in your favor!

Kraco

Sat, 02-20-2016, 08:23 AM

I take it you forgot about the bits from reality, where lots of politicians had talks about taking the newly found land, like colonies back in the days. All for the untapped ressources. Something that, what´s his name again, the JSDF guy who got stabbed, already worked towards in the most disgusting ways ("i give you worthless glass pearls, you give me all your silver mines").
The JSDF is out there to conquer, and it´d be interesting to see what they´d to if the PEOPLE, not only aristocrats, opposed them. Maybe finally the curtain would fall and reveal the true nature of the JSDF that is anything but friendly and peaceful.

Sure, they are there to conquer in the same way big business in capitalism conquers (because Japan of full of big business and capitalism, just like Germany, for the record). They want to extract ores and oil, possibly plant some rice. However, they haven't done anything yet because they intend to negotiate with the locals. They didn't even send the army to the third country to take down the dragon before they got a permission from the king. They further negotiated an agreement for mining anything but what the king is interested in. Sure, you could say that's dirty business, but that's perfectly standard capitalism for you. In the end it's not like the king would have any use for rare earth elements or many others things the Japanese could exploit financially.

I think you´re doing a whole lot of projecting here. For starters, calling his ambition "petty" is unfair.

Of course it's petty. He's rejecting peace in a war they started but can't possibly win. He doesn't give a shit if thousands of soldiers or civilians die, as long as he can somehow feel like he's not being forced into a peace.

Now a super powerful outside faction has appeared. A force that the Empire stands no chance against. You´re talking about bringing up any silly plans that would nurture the ruin of the Empire, but shouldn´t we assume that she´s intelligent enough to realize the following: Just do NOTHING and the JSDF will overtake the Empire/will change it in its ways. Her strife for revenge has become obsolte with the appearance of the JSDF.

She's not interested in the empire changing it ways. She's interested in the empire being destroyed. The peace talks were very unwelcome news for her. That's why she tried to sabotage them and start a new war between the empire and Japan. Because she knows the Japanese would easily have the power to destroy the empire. It's just difficult for her to understand that something with as much power as Japan actually doesn't want to destroy other nations. The empire had lots of power and destroyed the bunny nation. Japan has lots of power and should destroy the empire. That's how she's thinking. If the empire managed to win by some miracle, it would be the worst outcome ever for her. I guess at that point she would seal the deal, cut her losses, and simply murder the new emperor and any other noble she could.

I didn't dislike Arpeggio. And I like Lelei. She's cute. Although I don't even know why she's called prodigy or genius or anything. She didn't seem that much in the beginning. But sticking to the Japanese company she learned the scientific method and a lot about physics and the world. She put in some effort there to study, learn, and experiment. If she had never met the Japanese, she wouldn't surely be anywhere near dreaming of becoming the youngest master. But luck and random encounters are a part of life. Some benefit more from them, some less. It's not like fairness would be a law of nature, quite the contrary. But on the other hand she already was ready to risk a lot by setting out with her old master, instead of staying in that comfortable city of magicians. In fact the dragon might have killed her back then. It's not like everything was handed to her on a silver platter. Give the poor girl a break.

Ryllharu

Sat, 02-20-2016, 09:24 AM

If Arpeggio got the same kind of cheats her sister did with Earth textbooks and science and then apply her specialty to Earth physics (basically the opposite of what Lelei is doing), I wouldn't be surprised if she could do something like modify minerals in a way that would be super valuable to Earth, but considered "pointless" on their homeworld.

Something like trivially make warm superconductors.

But no, Lelei is "special" and Arpeggio will be used to hunt for metals in the ground like a dowsing rod.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-20-2016, 09:48 AM

Arpeggio will never be part of Itami's harem. We already have the annoying normal girl in Tuka. Lelei covers the blue-haired robot face trope.

I actually agree with Ryll on Arpeggio's magic. That was pretty cool, which would've been more awesome if it actually hit properly. I just don't like vocally jealous characters. They just seem really petty, but that's a personal thing. It's not like it's Lelei's fault for being lucky.

The funny thing is, I don't like Lelei the Most Boring Mage either. Or Useless Tuka. Or Rory all that much because of her slut voice. Or Master Jedi Shino for being a paper-thin psycho character.

It's amazing that this show got so far with such terrible, flat (and not in the good way) characters. The concept of having modern military in a fantasy world really is interesting.

Kraco

Sat, 02-20-2016, 10:15 AM

I didn't like Arpeggio getting envious of Lelei's progress in magic. She should have instead been happy for her little sister. And then proceeded to get everything out of her knowledge of minerals to get herself a position among the Japanese as well. I would have been okay of her getting jealous about the little brat's success with men, as big a misunderstanding as it was.

MFauli

Sat, 02-20-2016, 10:51 AM

Sure, they are there to conquer in the same way big business in capitalism conquers

This would be a nice comparison ... if it wasn´t so wrong. Disregarding our personal views on capitalism, capitalism never directly involves any sort of military action. But there are two major differences in GATE: 1.) This so-called peace only exists for as long as the Empire does as the JSDF demands. One out-of-line refusal and the JSDF simply threatens/uses military power. 2.) We live in a modern world, full of morality and ethics. In such a world, you simply mustn´t trick an underdeveloped nation into giving them previous ressources for worthless junk. What do you think would happen if that deal with the silver mines came to public in the real world? There´d be a justified outrage among human right activists, similiar to diamonds in Africa.

Of course it's petty. He's rejecting peace in a war they started but can't possibly win. He doesn't give a shit if thousands of soldiers or civilians die, as long as he can somehow feel like he's not being forced into a peace.

He doesn´t want to be forced into "peace". Quite ironically, Zolzal seems to be one of the very few characters that understands what´s happening: His kingdom is being conquered/oppressed by an outside-aggressor. It isn´t real peace, if you don´t have a choice if you don´t get to make fair deals. When Harris made a treaty with Japan in 1858, those deals were unfair towards Japan, but they had to accept them in face of an overwhelming power (the USA). But even then, Japan wasn´t as underdeveloped as the Empire people are compared to the JSDF. It really is as if you send modern day military back in time to fight some African tribes. When a soldier sitting inside a tank asks a native "hey, let´s make peace. We also want that stretch of land over there" and the native replies "we want peace, too, but that stretch of land is our holy ground, so please leave it be", and the soldier just takes it and kills anybody that complains ... that - is - not - peace. I will admit that Zolzal is a more aggressive person by nature (although that´s more because of the aristocratic entitlement), but what he´s doing atm is simply what any good king would do: Protect the kingdom, protect the people. That he´s forced to kill some of his own people is just prove of how desperate the situation is against this godly enemy.

She's not interested in the empire changing it ways. She's interested in the empire being destroyed.(...) I guess at that point she would seal the deal, cut her losses, and simply murder the new emperor and any other noble she could.

I think you underestimate her. You interpret her willingness to get fucked by the new king as prove of her being broken, living only for that one aim. I disagree. She probably hasn´t witnessed the battle on Alnus hill. She doesn´t know just how godforsakenly hopeless military opposition is for the Empire against the JSDF. If she understood that difference in power, I could very well see her having a moment of realization, of epiphany. This is a repeat of what happened to her own people. An overwhelming force mercilessly making its way. This is what could drive her to give up on petty revenge and side with the new king, under aforementioned conditions. And truly, wouldn´t that be the best? A kingdom lead by man and animal-woman, opening a new era without racial discrimination? Considering that the portal will close at some point, it´s pretty meaningless for the JSDF to "win".

flat[/U] (and not in the good way) characters. The concept of having modern military in a fantasy world really is interesting.

What I keep repeating :D

Regarding Arpeggio: It´s unfair to compare her to typically jealous characters. Being happy for your little sister has its limits. When the whole world shoves into your face how good other people have it, especially when it´s your little sister, there´s a breaking point. I feel a lot of empathy for her, because I can relate to it personally (my younger brothers being more successful than me irl). She´s simply too tragic. I wanna hug her. Then marry her. :>

Kraco

Sat, 02-20-2016, 11:35 AM

This would be a nice comparison ... if it wasn´t so wrong. Disregarding our personal views on capitalism, capitalism never directly involves any sort of military action. But there are two major differences in GATE: 1.) This so-called peace only exists for as long as the Empire does as the JSDF demands. One out-of-line refusal and the JSDF simply threatens/uses military power. 2.) We live in a modern world, full of morality and ethics. In such a world, you simply mustn´t trick an underdeveloped nation into giving them previous ressources for worthless junk. What do you think would happen if that deal with the silver mines came to public in the real world? There´d be a justified outrage among human right activists, similiar to diamonds in Africa.

We haven't seen any evidence of that. In fact we know nothing of the proposed peace treaty, aside from the fact it contains a heavy financial penalty for the empire, which is designed to be alleviated considerable during the negotiations. That seems quite wise and practical as that would make the empire feel like they did their best. But otherwise there's no indication whatsoever the empire would lose a single bit of their indepence. There has been no talk about territory to be ceded. At the moment there is no peace and they are at war. So, bombing or anything is natural. That's what war is all about, after all. Yet the folks of the capital have been living their lives normally, as if there was no war, because the Japanese certainly aren't keeping it hot.

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Who's to define its worth? A 1000 yen kitchen knife from Japan would be worth ten or fifty times more in that fantasy world because they can mass produce neither high quality steel (let alone stainless steel) nor the knives themselves. Thus the people would be grateful for receiving such. It's not an option for them to walk into a dollar store to buy one with their pocket money. A human rights activist complaining about that can go work in the salt mines.

He doesn´t want to be forced into "peace". Quite ironically, Zolzal seems to be one of the very few characters that understands what´s happening: His kingdom is being conquered/oppressed by an outside-aggressor.

Except that it was never conquered or oppressed. Instead the country the empire attacked wants peace despite their overwhelming military might. If the roles were reversed, do you think this prince would have done anything else but rob and burn down the Japanese towns and enslave the people? No, because we already know that's what he does from what happened to the bunny people. The dude is fucking lucky to still possess a kingdom to inherit but his peanut sized brain can't comprehend it.

I think you underestimate her. You interpret her willingness to get fucked by the new king as prove of her being broken, living only for that one aim. I disagree. She probably hasn´t witnessed the battle on Alnus hill. She doesn´t know just how godforsakenly hopeless military opposition is for the Empire against the JSDF. If she understood that difference in power, I could very well see her having a moment of realization, of epiphany. This is a repeat of what happened to her own people. An overwhelming force mercilessly making its way. This is what could drive her to give up on petty revenge and side with the new king, under aforementioned conditions. And truly, wouldn´t that be the best? A kingdom lead by man and animal-woman, opening a new era without racial discrimination? Considering that the portal will close at some point, it´s pretty meaningless for the JSDF to "win".

You are thinking 180 degrees backwards here. The more powerful the JSDF, the happier the bunny princess. Because it ensures the empire will be utterly destroyed once she can instigate a good all-out war between the empire and the Japanese. She won't suddenly start to pity the empire. Although the open war will never happen, so it's kind of all the same. She's reduced to trying to execute one plan after another, but she'll never succeed. Perhaps her best bet is the second brother. The other countries probably don't share the values of the Japanese, so they might annihilate the empire if given a chance.

MFauli

Sat, 02-20-2016, 01:18 PM

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Who's to define its worth?

Then let them define everything´s worth by openly stating the facts, how about that? Fact is, the JSDF didn´t know about the portal closing again at some point in time. Their plan was long-term, annex land, get precious untapped ressources for almost free, maybe outsource the Japanese population sometime.
If it was all a quick business exchange, like, "the portal is closing in 3 days. Give us this metal and we will give you 1000 kitchen units", then it´d be somewhat okay. But they planned on all of it being a permanent situation. Therefore they fully intended to absuse the lack of knowledge of the Empire people.

Except that it was never conquered or oppressed.

So what do you think would happen if the Empire said "we accept peace, but we don´t want to give you any ressources or land"?

Also, you can insult Zolzal as much as you want, I like him :)

You are thinking 180 degrees backwards here.

I´m thinking up a scenario that would be interesting to watch. It´s not what makes the most sense as of right now, of course. But it´d be super boring if Tyuule was so simple minded that she only cares about the ongoing revenge plan. If it´s about creating a path of victory against the JSDF, I simply believe that Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up would be one of the very few options.

Kraco

Sat, 02-20-2016, 02:17 PM

Then let them define everything´s worth by openly stating the facts, how about that? Fact is, the JSDF didn´t know about the portal closing again at some point in time. Their plan was long-term, annex land, get precious untapped ressources for almost free, maybe outsource the Japanese population sometime.
If it was all a quick business exchange, like, "the portal is closing in 3 days. Give us this metal and we will give you 1000 kitchen units", then it´d be somewhat okay. But they planned on all of it being a permanent situation. Therefore they fully intended to absuse the lack of knowledge of the Empire people.

Sure. The empire did lose the immediately vicinity of the gate probably permanently, unless the gate starts to close soon and the Japanese troops withdraw. If the refugees now living there decide to stay around the gate, Zolzal will need to slaughter them all to get the gate back. But he would do that without a second thought laughing and crying tears of joy.

What would you expect the Japanese to do? Of course they took control of the gate. A while ago murderous hordes of men and monsters pour through it into the middle of Tokyo and murdered or kidnapped lots of people. Even the Japanese aren't pacifists enough to let that happen a second time. The empire lost the right to that place when attacked and then lost. Plain and simple.

Anything else is your speculation and demonisation of the Japanese who haven't yet done anything you accuse them of.

So what do you think would happen if the Empire said "we accept peace, but we don´t want to give you any ressources or land"?

There are plenty of other countries and government around. One of them already agreed to give the Japanese the right to mine. Others will as well. In fact Zolzal would as well when he sees the other countries benefiting from it and his own senators and merchants will start to complain.

I simply believe that Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up would be one of the very few options.

That would be the mother of all Stockholm syndromes. He destroyed her country, enslaved her people, and then raped her every night. And you think she will start to work with him and genuinely further his goals? Yeah, right. Won't happen outside of H-doujins.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 02-20-2016, 08:51 PM

Stuff about Lelei and bunny girl

Lelei lucked out, Lelei's perfect.. so it justifies my putting a pie in your face. That's what I'm reading..

I sort of admire your efforts to really drive this story in a different direction. I can't ever see anyone join forces with the prince after having him steam-roll you. "Serves you right" is more like it.

Also, don't forget the empire sent dragons after civilians first.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 02-20-2016, 09:37 PM

I sort of admire you guys for seriously answering him even now.

MFauli

Sun, 02-21-2016, 01:12 AM

What would you expect the Japanese to do? Of course they took control of the gate. A while ago murderous hordes of men and monsters pour through it into the middle of Tokyo and murdered or kidnapped lots of people. Even the Japanese aren't pacifists enough to let that happen a second time. The empire lost the right to that place when attacked and then lost. Plain and simple.

There are plenty of other countries and government around. One of them already agreed to give the Japanese the right to mine. Others will as well. In fact Zolzal would as well when he sees the other countries benefiting from it and his own senators and merchants will start to complain.

Yes, they gave the JSDF valuable ressources they have no idea about just how valuable they are, for a ridiculous cheap reward. And we DID see a scene where politicians talked about annexing the land beyond the portal. It is one thing to install proper defense mechanisms, so that another attack on Tokyo cannot happen. But the JSDF is now way too aggressive. And I stand by my question: What if the Empire and all the other kingdoms tell them "peace, okay, but leave our land alone. It´s ours"? What then? That´s kinda the central dilemma. You´re accusing me of demonizing Japan, but I bet there wouldn´t be much peace talks left, if the fantasy people refused the JSDF´s demands.

That would be the mother of all Stockholm syndromes. He destroyed her country, enslaved her people, and then raped her every night. And you think she will start to work with him and genuinely further his goals? Yeah, right. Won't happen outside of H-doujins.

1.) This anime isn´t above a h-doujin story. 2.) I simply hope for Tyuule not to be that 1dimensional of a character. Boo-fucking-hoo, her country got conquered and her people enslaved. Yes, that sucks. But it is the past. Simple-minded revenge is just too disgraceful for a character with her cunning and intelligence. I´m not saying you´re wrong, because most likely that´s what´s gonna happen. But I do have some hope left that Tyuule gets over herself and instead of dwelling on the past, she thinks about her future, her´s and her remaining people. Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow. Another option would be to team up with the new king, become his queen and re-instate her people as proper people of the kingdom. Unlikely for a bunch of reasons, but also the best route imo.

I sort of admire you guys for seriously answering him even now.

shinta, do you want me to leave this forum? You keep harrassing me in every thread I write, and unlike you, I make elaborate postings where I explain my opinion/position in detail, because it´s fun to talk about it. What is your problem?

Kraco

Sun, 02-21-2016, 03:58 AM

Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow. Another option would be to team up with the new king, become his queen and re-instate her people as proper people of the kingdom. Unlikely for a bunch of reasons, but also the best route imo.

Nah, I'm pretty sure the best way to help her people is to destroy the empire that totally obliterated their bunny land. This new emperor is the same one that vanquished the bunny country. It's highly unlikely he would now suddenly help those same people, at least more than nominally. As soon as Tyuule asked for something that's not directly related to Zolzal's own ambitions, a greedy narcissist like he would immediately start to suspect her. That would be the beginning of her end. To be purely theoretic, even if he did do a 180 turn and tried to help the rabbit eared people, a majority of them would never forgive and even less trust him. If someone like Pina became the ruler of the empire, there's a chance she could give back the land to the bunny folks, free the slaves to allow them to return there, and grant them total indepence. There would still be helluva lot of bitter bunny people who would spend their days dreaming of revenge, but it might work in practice, more or less.

Tyuule would gain absolutely nothing for her own people by genuinely working with the emperor unless she somehow actually tricked him into believing freeing the slaves and granting the bunnies their own country would help the emperor and the empire. That seems like a 1% chance. Not to mention she's already so wicked it would be difficult for her to forget her own bloody thirst for revenge.

Ryllharu

Sun, 02-21-2016, 05:32 AM

But I do have some hope left that Tyuule gets over herself and instead of dwelling on the past, she thinks about her future, her´s and her remaining people. Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow.
If we listen to Delilah, she never cared about them in the first place. Just herself.

Kraco

Sun, 02-21-2016, 06:42 AM

If we listen to Delilah, she never cared about them in the first place. Just herself.

That doesn't seem to be the case, not entirely. If she only cared about herself, she would be seeking personal power for the sake of raising her own status. Plus it's kind of hard to see why she would suffer being violated by Zolzal for so long if she really cared about herself that much. It seems to me all she cares about is revenge. She doesn't mind ruining herself as long as the empire is obliterated. Of course this doesn't mean she loves her own people, which is why it could be extremely difficult to make her see reason and compromise to help the bunny race.

That being said, wasn't Delilah ready to fight to the last rabbit to oppose the empire? If things had gone that way, their people simply would be no more, with no chance of salvation in the future.

Ryllharu

Sun, 02-21-2016, 06:47 AM

This is why we need to see Delilah and Yanagida again. The JSDF needs to interrogate her for trying to assassinate the POW girl, and that should have her elaborate substantially on Tyuule's background.

Unless the author doesn't realize the importance and just lets that thread die for no reason.

MFauli

Sun, 02-21-2016, 08:09 AM

Tyuule would gain absolutely nothing for her own people by genuinely working with the emperor.

I´m operating under the belief that Zolzal isn´t pure evil incarnate. He was born a prince, he grew up a prince, and he is now a king. This is his life, his way of living - he doesn´t know better. But what he does, is not all bad. He´s treating slaves like slaves, which is bad from our point of view, but normal in the fantasy people´s realm. He´s arrogant and a loud-mouth, but that´s to be expected from spoiled royality.
He ALSO isn´t afraid of things. He goes around fighting. He cares for his men. He sacrifices them and himself, if necessary for the Empire´s well-being (which is upholding the status quo). And despite being arrogant so many times, he isn´t inherently dumb. He´s smart enough to have realized that his brother would be the better king, that he´s the smarter one. Acknowledging as much is both smart in itself and also surprisingly honest, down to earth. Where I´m going with that: All it takes is to awaken this sort of realization one more time, this time not for his brother, but for Tyuule, and "things could happen".

And about Tyuule not gaining anything: If she can look past her petty revenge schemes, she´d realize that, if the above scenario plays out, there´s a chance for her to become the queen of the most powerful nation in this realm. That she can re-instate her own people as free citizens. The alternative is ultimate peril. Kinda not so good. ;>

Regarding Delilah: I´d bet a lot of money that the JSDF will just give her a slap on the wrist, being all "ah, come on, don´t cry. We understand that you had no choice. Now you realize that what you did was wrong, right? So let´s be friends again :)"

:|

KrayZ33

Sun, 02-21-2016, 08:32 AM

Regarding Delilah: I´d bet a lot of money that the JSDF will just give her a slap on the wrist, being all "ah, come on, don´t cry. We understand that you had no choice. Now you realize that what you did was wrong, right? So let´s be friends again "

She is as much of a victim as Yanagida, so why not. She was/is a "spy" working under false orders.

Kraco

Sun, 02-21-2016, 08:49 AM

The alternative is ultimate peril. Kinda not so good. ;>

There's an endless amount of alternatives. If she manages to get the empire destroyed, there's a good chance most of the bunny people would become free and they could rebuild their country. From the looks of it the former princess wouldn't necessarily be welcome back, but in the end I don't think that's necessarily even what she desires. It's hard to say. It's possible she considers herself extremely dirty after being defiled numerous times by the man she hates the most, so she might be happier dying when she's finished with the revenge.

Another possibility I mention earlier is Pina becoming the ruler and freeing slaves, or some of the slaves, and giving them back their lands. She might very well do it after being influenced by the Japanese so much. She would most likely try to cooperate as much as possible. On the bright side she wouldn't trade invaluable resources for mere glass pearls because she has learned too much after hanging with Itami & Co and even visiting Japan. I have no doubt Tyuule would want to slay Pina as well, though, since she belongs to the same royal family.

All in all the best alternatives would see Zolzal removed from power. He can't very well go around freeing slaves and ceding land because those spoils of war and the human supremacy as the basis of his nature and his militaristic patriotic fame among the population. Zolzal and Tyuule should kill each other and Pina should become the empress. Happy ending for everybody.

Ryllharu

Sun, 02-21-2016, 09:30 AM

There's an endless amount of alternatives. If she manages to get the empire destroyed, there's a good chance most of the bunny people would become free and they could rebuild their country. From the looks of it the former princess wouldn't necessarily be welcome back, but in the end I don't think that's necessarily even what she desires. It's hard to say. It's possible she considers herself extremely dirty after being defiled numerous times by the man she hates the most, so she might be happier dying when she's finished with the revenge.

Another possibility I mention earlier is Pina becoming the ruler and freeing slaves, or some of the slaves, and giving them back their lands. She might very well do it after being influenced by the Japanese so much. She would most likely try to cooperate as much as possible. On the bright side she wouldn't trade invaluable resources for mere glass pearls because she has learned too much after hanging with Itami & Co and even visiting Japan. I have no doubt Tyuule would want to slay Pina as well, though, since she belongs to the same royal family.
I don't think there are all that many bunnies left, at least that's the impression I get. They got slaughtered anyway, despite Tyuule surrendering to Zolzal. Even if there were enough to rebuild, Tyuule would try to rule again anyway, stating that she "sacrificed so much" to save her people. Scheming bitch to the end.

Ehh...I think you're giving Pina too much credit. She's actually pretty stupid. Bozes and especially Hamilton (drill forelocks and bobcut headband) seem to be quite a bit more politically aware and shrewd compared to Pina. I'm not saying she'd trade land for beads and plastics, but I don't think she really grasped the economics of scale on her visit to Japan. She was already stunned that the Japanese were willing to take only "mining rights" and freedom from taxes for reparations. The latter being the big one. The aptly-named Hamilton started to realize it though.

Japan can singlehandedly obliterate their economy, while taking away valuable raw materials and securing an enormous agricultural area (two things they're already short on back on Earth). Japan has deliberately set up a very harsh and one-sided tariff system with the Empire and they probably don't even realize it. We've already seen its effect on the PX/Commissary in the town that surround the base.

Pina has always been to focused on honor and not being obliterated to think about the other, far more nefarious things Japan has been doing. The other world is already a colony of Japan, and with Japan having the sole gate, they don't have to compete with any other imperialist rank powers back home.

Pina and her brothers are playing the short game. Japan has been playing the long game since the battle stopped. Their father was at least a little more aware of it.