Unrecommendable anime traits

[MFauli]

Really exciting setup for a story. although i thought he was mentioning "we´re weak" a tadbit too often, lol.

Loving this anime (No Game No Life), though my 2 complaints remain: The rushed story-telling (it´s rather obvious that the author didnt mean for this story to be rich and full of world building) and the annoying, otaku-pandering little sister-relationship. See, I am an otaku, but shit like this makes this anime un-recommendable to friends of mine who are not hardcore-anime followers :/

[shinta|hikari]

That is so true. A lot of the people I recommended Mahouka to are turned off by the incest aspect. It really seems to be a major issue for non-anime fans while to seasoned watchers like me it is no problem or even interesting depending on the approach.

[Kraco]

I can certainly see that. I've watched my share of anime, and I'm still not entirely comfortable with the brother-sister incest themes. And that's just being comfortable, I won't be liking it any time soon. Although I guess I can already appreciate some of the humour. But would I recommend such shows to more casual watchers? Hardly.

[MFauli]

It´s not just incest or "incest-y" stuff, though. Absurd panty-shots, skimpy clothing in general, sexyfying of loli characters, stuff like that.

I mean, I love Claymore, but how can I keep a serious face when recommending this anime for its great, gruesome battles, the serious, desperate atmosphere, when the anime is inhabited by girls running around in skin tight leggings, super-short skirts and such?
What´s annoyingly common, too, is putting the main character through lots of awkward/weird scenes involving getting into embarrassing situation with some girl, which is so overused of a trope that it can only be counted towards otaku-pandering, too.

Really, this is also one of the reasons why Hunter X Hunter is so fantastic. Not a single scene that would make me have second thoughts about recommending it to anybody who likes an adventure story.

[David75]

Really, this is also one of the reasons why Hunter X Hunter is so fantastic. Not a single scene that would make me have second thoughts about recommending it to anybody who likes an adventure story.
And then they curse you for that Hisoka gay-pedophilia scene...

[shinta|hikari]

Or the Palm hebephilia for Gon.

I actually think people can be oversensitive when it comes to incest themes. They start disliking the show just because of that, even if it only makes up a small part of the show, and may even be integral to the story (and thus not just fanservice). In this show, it is inevitable that they behave like that, considering they only have each other and it's been that way for a long time.

The common argument people make is "I have a little sister but she doesn't act like that." Yes, and people get thrown into different worlds or shoot magic from their hands in RL too. It's fiction, so there can be siblings like that. Just because it isn't common in real life (but likely exists) doesn't mean its bad or unbelievable within the confines of the story.

Another aspect that people overlook with incest themed stories is that there are cases where even characters in the story find the sibling relationship abnormal (i.e. Mahouka, OreImo, NGNL). It would be different if everyone in the story did not even bat an eyelash when siblings are getting too flirty with each other.

[MFauli]

I would literally die if I had to watch Oreimo together with other people in the same room that are not otaku temselves. :/

[KrayZ33]

sexyfying of loli characters

Japan... i hate them for that too, take Enju from Black Bullet for example, she's freaking adorable the way she is
however the first scene she is shown: A huge spider shoots its white goopy web all over her face and clothes
I don't even mind them showing her off in a towel (when they ate dinner together), as long as they don't overdo it because I can always go on and say to myself "well, kids might run around naked if you let them" but shit like that makes my skin crawl a bit

(the fact aside that little girls are fighting big ass monsters and I'd never recommend something like that to someone who is not into anime)

I can't remember anyone who didn't like watching Golden Boy (seriously!), but I could never recommend a show like that, nor do I like to watch something like that myself.

thats one of the reasons why I recommend Movies and OVAs over tv-series.. unless its something like Cowboy Bebop
higher production value, less *weird*-fanservice

[shinta|hikari]

I think people should get out of their comfort zones a little more. They would discover so much more if they do so. There is such a thing as acquired taste after all.

I am actually more supportive of "weird" fanservice, because they are actually introducing something new to the mix. Generic fanservice has been done to death and has become a waste of screen time. Either try something different or be creative about how to present it.

[Buffalobiian]

I recently had to consider whether I should recommend Steins;Gate to a friend or wait until they've seen a few other anime first so the geek culture/slang doesn't overwhelm them. Shows like FMA:Brotherhood and HxH are easy to recommend in comparison.

I think the variety is good since it caters to various audiences. The key is that there is a variety. The problem is when every show in a season goes for a soft-core fanservice approach.

[Ryllharu]

It's key to not try to introduce someone to anime with a series that is too Japanese. Anime makes a lot of cultural assumptions of its audience, and viewers can be put off by a lot of things they don't understand because the authors and production companies just assume the viewers know or would never be bothered by it because it is considered normal.

Its often better to start with something that plays to the particular strengths of animation in general. Fantasy or scifi being the most obvious, where the special effects never look like out of place mismatched CGI that live-action has to deal with. Usually series with a more western feel are even better because they don't use those same Japanese cultural mainstays. To the more western cultures, anime has an advantage of slightly more mature storylines than typical animated series of the west.

[DarthEnderX]

Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is probably my favorite series to try and introduce somebody to anime with.

It just seems to have the perfect blend of everything that makes anime enjoyable(to me at least), without getting too much into the stuff that can make anime cringeworthy.

Also, it doesn't go on indefinitely, which is a plus when trying to get someone to try it.


And then they curse you for that Hisoka gay-pedophilia scene...Yeah but that scene is like 50 episodes in. They're already hooked by then.

Also it's hilarious.


I think people should get out of their comfort zones a little more. They would discover so much more if they do so. There is such a thing as acquired taste after all.I think comfort zones are the only things keeping some people from committing victimizing crimes. And some tastes people shouldn't acquire.

[shinta|hikari]

The slippery slope thing? I don't think that preventing people from expanding their worldview and being more accepting of other people's preference because it might (?) increase the risk of them doing something is illegal is the right way to go.

Just because someone likes something different from the majority does not mean they will start victimizing others because of it. A lot of people imagine hitting their boss or some jerk but they don't do it. The proper way to control and educate should be just that, making people understand it is okay to like whatever you want, but not to the extent of doing something that victimizes others (I don't want to say hurt because people hurt each other all the time, and I don't want to say illegal, because some laws make no sense).

Back on topic, I don't know how much anime you guys watch, but I'm curious what tropes or themes actual anime fans still find unsettling. I ask this because I think I have reached a point where I don't mind anything that would usually shock or turn off others. Don't get me wrong, I still hate some tropes, but that is usually because of over saturation, rather than lack of immunity.

[Buffalobiian]

I suppose there may be an absurd amount of gory violence that could make me slightly uncomfortable, but I can't tell you the last show that did. Blood everywhere is fine. Intestines all over the ceiling fan seems... a little exaggerated. I get a feeling I'm watching something for psychopaths when I see it.

Maybe Fist of the North Star was one, and again maybe it was because I was younger then. Those older films had a thing for detailing such scenes.

There are also some hentai themes that I don't like, but I suppose we're not going there.

[Ryllharu]

Back on topic, I don't know how much anime you guys watch, but I'm curious what tropes or themes actual anime fans still find unsettling. I ask this because I think I have reached a point where I don't mind anything that would usually shock or turn off others. Don't get me wrong, I still hate some tropes, but that is usually because of over saturation, rather than lack of immunity.
- Fulfilled incestual relationships. One-sided ones are fine, even implied is okay, but when the series ends and the two siblings, cousins, or parent-child are post-coitus in bed...too far.
- Obviously pedophilia and the illusionary term hebephilia (Guess what? It's still pedophilia). However, this contrasts the Lolita-fetish adults where they are both adults and consensual (Konata's mother and father, various other examples) are fine. I'm actually a fan of the comedy trope where the mother or even grandmother looks ridiculously young.
- Shit like Maken-ki (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8265). Takes ecchi too far and in general is just gross. It's a very fine line between things like Queen's Blade and Qwaser (which are ultimately enjoyable) and this trash, but whatever it is that separates them makes a difference.


That would be the only things I find actively "unsettling or replusive." There are plenty of anime tropes I simply do not like and are a turn off or detrimental to the series, but they don't bother me.

[Buffalobiian]

Obviously pedophilia and the illusionary term hebephilia (Guess what? It's still pedophilia)

Except that the distinction is made in medical literature, with strict definitions of what constitutes as paedophilia in DSM5.

[Ryllharu]

We're not getting into this again, even if there is medical literature to "justify" it.

[Kraco]

I have blessedly enough never encountered anime or manga with parent-child incest (other than in the form of clear domestic violence). The regular sibling one was tough enough for me to get used to, and it still bothers me every now and then, especially when there would be better partners around (like Kuroneko in Oreimo, to give an extreme example, although I never finished that show after hearing how it approx ends).

After all these years I think I'd enjoy a show where a brother and sister would be really close and friendly and would even purposefully have fun by tricking their acquaintances by hinting there could be more (like that one scene in Mahouka superficially), but in reality neither would be in love with the other in a man-woman way.

[MFauli]

I´m surprised that someone who´s been watching anime for years would still feel so grossed out about incest themes. Tbqh the lackluster fullfillment at the end of Oreimo was worse than had they stayed together.
Staying on topic, I´d actually love to watch an anime about a successful incest relationship for once. But not one that´s all depressing or too creepy (forgot the name, but there´s this anime where a brown-haired, overweight uncle (?) gets together with his much younger niece, and it´s all presented in such a trist, painful way. Hard to watch. And kinda bad end, too. Then there´s stuff like Myself;Yourself that cops out and doesn´t properly show anything, just a quick "hey, we´re a couple now!".

My personal opinion on this topic is that incest between siblings should be okay (parent-child would obviously have an unfair power balance, so it´s a no-go for reality), so an anime should be able to portray it as something that *can* work out, too.

As for stuff that I myself find unsettling, hm. Mostly stuff I find annoying, but unsettling? Well, I guess too gruesome stuff, like when someone´s eye is pierced with a sharp tool. I cant watch shit like this.

[DarthEnderX]

Just because someone likes something different from the majority does not mean they will start victimizing others because of it.No, but if the thing that they "like" is portrayals of victimization, it sure doesn't help.

If people's "thing" is sexualized lolis, I don't really feel like anyone needs to respect their desire to expand their worldview.


We're not getting into this again, even if there is medical literature to "justify" it.If you want to argue that they're both wrong, I'm not gonna argue with you. If you insist that they're the same thing, that's just factually wrong. They're different terms for different, specific things.

[Ryllharu]

Staying on topic, I´d actually love to watch an anime about a successful incest relationship for once.
...
Then there´s stuff like Myself;Yourself that cops out and doesn´t properly show anything, just a quick "hey, we´re a couple now!".

Want to know why I hate it? Canvas 2 (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=3215). Fuck that show. [ Not only is it an incest ending, they waste a tremendous amount of time with the childhood friend route before the male lead has some kind of random epiphany with zero setup of development for it, and lo and behold, he and his much younger cousin are naked in bed in France. ]
Normally, I'd say fuck it and leave it as an open spoiler, especially on a series from 2005, but I'm too nice of a person. You know the ending anyway since I'm linking it to incest, but seriously, fuck that show. Myself;Yourself wasn't that bad because they knew it was fucked up.

I hated Nazuka Kaori for quite a while because of this series, through Eureka 7, True Tears, and Code Geass, until Soul Eater. Tsubaki ftw.

[NeoCybercoin]

I just fucking hate those overly used arrogant 'noble' bitches with that annoying laugh they always do. Yeah sure, some characters should be arrogant for the sake of plot or to make them fit in but does it have to be that stereotypical?
I'd like to see a good harem show where the main char isn't a dense fuck and is actually tormented by all these girls loving him while knowing he has to chose one. The only one I can remember was Boku no Tomodachi ga Sukunai. At least I think he was pretending to be dense so he wouldn't have to deal with it.

And of course....loli's. I never understood the need for them. But that's just purely personal. Some people like em some don't. I am okay with that as long as it's not in any sexual way. Reminds me too much of pedophilia.

[Death BOO Z]

characters who are supposedly in some kind of sport club, but it only comes up as a chance for them to be 'cool' and 'the best' despite how it never seems to stop them from doing all the other activities...

prime offender: 'Open sesame'. he never trains, always out eating at some contrived super expensive restaurant or away at some premium resort, but we are supposed to believe he is the top boxer in japan, just because he is. and it's not even a sports story, so it has zero relevance to plot advancement.

[Kraco]

characters who are supposedly in some kind of sport club, but it only comes up as a chance for them to be 'cool' and 'the best' despite how it never seems to stop them from doing all the other activities...

prime offender: 'Open sesame'. he never trains, always out eating at some contrived super expensive restaurant or away at some premium resort, but we are supposed to believe he is the top boxer in japan, just because he is. and it's not even a sports story, so it has zero relevance to plot advancement.

I guess we all have our own preferences, but still, compared to sexualised lolis, incestuous relationships, overabundant blatant fanservice, and other such things, I kind of fail to understand how yours would make the anime so dubious you wouldn't dare to suggest it to a casual watcher. Yours is kind of equal to: "I wouldn't recommend CSI to anybody because most of the lab tests take only a fraction of the time they realistically should."

[DarthEnderX]

I just fucking hate those overly used arrogant 'noble' bitches with that annoying laugh they always do.Oh please. How common could that be (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoblewomansLaugh)?

[shinta|hikari]

Seems like incest and lolis are really the ones that cause the gag reflex for most people.

I must be just weird then. Not like I can help it though.

Spoiler to a film:









I am one of those who think that the Old Boy ending was a happy end.

[DarthEnderX]

Lol, I haven't seen it yet. Mainly because everyone tells me how horrifying it is. So you must just be weird.

[shinta|hikari]

Let me change sub topic a bit.

What about tropes/themes/content that you really dislike (not because of shock or disgust) in anime that prevents you from recommending it to other anime watchers?

Mine would be excessive, blatant fanservice. Shows like Maken Ki, Qwaser or Queen's Blade are unpalatable to me, so I don't recommend them, or even dissuade people from watching them.

I am also starting to get sick of all the childhood friends running around all over the place.

[Kraco]

Obviously shows I wouldn't watch myself (I can't recommed something I don't watch). Like generic harem with nothing else going for it (poor story, no really interesting characters). Another is a show with a totally annoying main character. In the past I could watch shows where I hoped every minute of every episode the main character would get killed, but these days I can't. Yaoi or more than very light shounen-ai goes without saying.

Excessive fanservice doesn't bother me if the show is otherwise strong, like DxD or Hagure Yuusha. I don't think I've watched excessive fanservice shows with nothing else going for them for a long time now; I skipped Queen's Blade and Maken Ki, for example.

[shinta|hikari]

I am actually quite tolerant of crappy MCs, as long as the other characters can carry the show. That said, I love shows where the MC is badass, even if they are too perfect or lacking flaws.

DxD and Hagure Yuusha I would watch, but not really recommend because to others. The amount of fanservice in those shows take away so much from what could have been a better show had they toned it down. It is distracting, and makes the story seem stupid (assuming it is not) because of all the random boob and panty shots. The direction is also horrible, because it is forced to incorporate the fanservice.

I think what irks me about fanservice heavy shows is not the content of the fanservice, but the delivery. I am fine with lots of nudity or whatnot, but it looks cheap and artificial.

[Buffalobiian]

I think what irks me about fanservice heavy shows is not the content of the fanservice, but the delivery. I am fine with lots of nudity or whatnot, but it looks cheap and artificial.

Like where characters walk around with boobs and asses bouncing uncontrollably for no good reason? Yeah, those make me shake my head.

One thing I dislike relates to Otome game adaptations. Of the recent ones I've cared to check out, the male leads always have some "combat ability" which is never expanded upon. The whole story revolves around them protecting or serving the girl and they need their powers to accomplish this. However they never train or develop like they do in shounen shows. They get defeated by some enemy but either manage ultimately triumph via teamwork (aka ganging up) or having a magical powerup (girl becomes useful etc). It really makes the show boring when all this thoughtless padding is simply a platform for bringing 5 males together with a female and make them "unique".

That pisses me off because the atmosphere and music may be strong points, but the entire experience is ultimately crap.

Breaking the fourth wall too often rubs me the wrong way as well. When used rarely it's entertaining, but overuse ruins immersion.

[DarthEnderX]

Mine would be excessive, blatant fanservice.Probably that.

Like, I really liked Kill La Kill, but I'd have a hard time recommending it to someone who wasn't a seasoned anime watcher. Even though most of the fanservice in that show is played for laughs.

[MFauli]

What I hate? When a girl´s nickname is "Anaru", basically announced "anal", when the anime otherwise is about emotions and atmosphere (Ano Hana). Such bullshit.

Also, I like Highschool of the Dead, but whhhhhy all that pandering? sigh

[shinta|hikari]

Okay, now I am confused. We are all anime fans, but for some reason hate fanservice.

Who is all that blatant fanservice for anyway?

[Kraco]

Okay, now I am confused. We are all anime fans, but for some reason hate fanservice.

Who is all that blatant fanservice for anyway?

I think we are all too old, even you younger guys. The blatant fanservice is for the 13 years olds.

[NeoCybercoin]

I think we just got so used to it that we no longer really care for it. Now if it's a serious show and you don't get any fan-service and than BAM you give you a peek or just a little that'd be enough.
I don't count shows as Queens Blade or Maken-Ki amongst the fanservice shows. How can it be fan service if it's constantly there. So I agree with Shinta on how it's about the delivery.

I have to say I am somewhat indifferent about the forced beach episodes on many many shows. Most likely fan-service related so yeah.

One thing I dislike are those clingy imouto types like that little shit from Mahouka.

[shinta|hikari]

Are such things (Maken Ki etc.) even targeted to 13 year olds? Because I think they are shown only on specific channels, and air at midnight or later. It is also illegal to torrent anime in Japan, though you would likely never be caught.

When I was a teenager, I watched Yuyu Hakusho, Rurounikenshin, Grander Musashi, Fushigi Yuugi, and I loved them. I would recommend them in a heart beat to the appropriate watcher. I already thought that boobs flipping about all over the place was retarded. I watched Divergence Eve as a teen and dropped it immediately after seeing the mindless nudity.

If they wanted fap material, there is plenty of pron and hentai to go around. And you don't have to sit through 20 minutes of "story" drivel.

[MFauli]

That´s probably also part of it. There´s somewhat quality hentai out there, so all this fan-service really only amounts to frustrating teasing, never leading anywhere. That´s why I can´t stomach any harem-anime anymore. It´s too frustrating to watch a guy being surrounded by a bunch of beautiful girls that throw themselves at him, and he NEVER "does them". Seriously, FUCK YOU ICHIKA. :/

So without the chance of a proper sex scene ever, it´s always just some sort of "sexy filler", and that´s unnecessary. The moe-boom certainly didn´t help, leading to a mix of fan-service and moe, thus the success of the modern loli-character. sigh (seriously, I hate hate hate these "young girl, but cold/knowledgable personality"-characters so much. And it´s super creepy, too, since it paints pre-pubescent girls as adult, when they arent. I´d rather have normal young girls or older girls that look young, instead. But the former kind ... ugh).

[shinta|hikari]

I actually really like the precocious loli character type for obvious reasons. I'm surprised you feel so strongly negative about it, considering your attraction to Neferpitou, something arguably more abnormal, because she isn't even human, and is probably as hard as carapace all over judging from her body and limb shapes. I am not attacking your preference at all (I like her too), but it did make me wonder about the disparity.

[MFauli]

Guess that´s because I define "normal attraction" by level of intelligence. As far as Im concerned, what makes us human is our mind/spirit/brain/whatever. Our thoughts. It´s why I have no problem feeling attracted to quite alien lifeforms, be they aliens, furry characters, monsters, A.I.s or whatever. As long as there´s a basic level of an appealing appearance, it´s okay.

Which is why I hate the "mature loli" type so much. It shows you a little child, definitely far from any sexual matters, yet its mind/spirit/brain/thoughts are portrayed in a way that makes it attractive.

Basically, when I fawn over Pitou, I see her as an attractive intelligent being despite her weird body, whereas I DONT WANT to see a pre-pubescent girl as that. :/

[shinta|hikari]

That's obvious bias then. If you judge attraction and maturity based on intelligence, the intelligent loli (and therefore mature loli) should be well within the strike zone.

What you said in the last sentence completely contradicts what you said before it. Attraction (or in this case, repulsion) is based completely on physical appearances (of the loli).

[MFauli]

That's obvious bias then. If you judge attraction and maturity based on intelligence, the intelligent loli (and therefore mature loli) should be well within the strike zone.


Which is why I hate said loli. I dont want to be attracted to that. I dont want anyone to create a character that creates such attraction. lol

[Ryllharu]

Who is all that blatant fanservice for anyway?
People who find it hilarious, like that Ryllharu asshole.


Again, there is a very fine line between stuff like Qwaser, Queen's Blade, DxD, Daimidaler, Ladies x Butlers, Sekai de Ichiban Tsuyoku Naritai and trash like Maken-Ki or the Elfen Lied manga.

I'm not 100% sure it's even something that can really be quantified, but if I had to guess, it is something about pandering to fetishes instead of doing a few well.
- Qwaser (sucking on titties)
- Diamidaler (rubbing titties)
- Sunabouzu (appreciation of big titties)
- Daphne in the Brilliant Blue (skintight clothing)
- Sekai de Ichiban ("girls in agony" ...their words, not mine)
- Those Who Hunt Elves (stripping elves)
- Even series like Brynhildr (foot fetishists, he only gets kicked in the face, never slapped)

All of these are fine, because they pick something, and do it well. Some of them are even quite over the top, but the manage to keep their plot going while still centering around their particular fetish to exploit.

Stuff like Maken-ki or the Elfen Lied manga just throw everything at the viewer/reader and do none of it well.
- Maken-ki has characters that cover a half-dozen fetishes each.
- The much-worse-than-its-anime Elfen Lied manga just goes into random shit in the latter half for no apparent reason at all. There are characters that are shoehorned in merely to hit the fetish bingo.

These kind of series fail because their purpose becomes the ecchi variety, and they are too busy trying to appeal to all the perverts that the plot becomes secondary. Characters have no depth, they're just tick marks on a checklist. Even their fetish appeals are pushed aside simply so they can hit on more of them. Quantity over quality. In the end, these kinds of series do nothing well.

[DarthEnderX]

We are all anime fans, but for some reason hate fanservice.Nono. This thread isn't about what we hate. It's about what prevents us from recommending a show to others.

I don't hate fanservice at all. Because I'm a big stupid manbaby. But I wouldn't recommend something with a ton of fanservice to anyone I know because I don't need them thinking I'm a big stupid manbaby any more than they already do.

That said, there are specific types of fanservice, targeted at specific fetishes that I absolutely DO hate.

[MFauli]

Would you ever recommend Qwaser to a friend or family member, Ryll?

[neflight86]

In my opinion, in the last 6-8 years, Anime has become an order of magnitude more watchable for both myself and those ‘without the gift’ of tolerance for the love of animation.

As far as themes that are uncomfortable, incest and pseudo-pedophilia are really the only ones that I still sigh and roll my eyes at. Not quite for loli as a concept, but the three are often not far from each other, so the association is there.

I am an evangelist for the things I enjoy, anime viewing included. I think to myself that the best way to enjoy something you love even more is to share it with someone else who may come to like it as well. On these terms I also judge anime aside from my own preferences, as I make it a point to mentally record viewing preferences of those I’m (personally) close to. I expect many of you might feel this way, too.

Explicit fanservice and objectification is a typical disqualification for shared viewing, as it would not reflect my entertainment choices in a positive light to share shows depicting scantily clad minors forced into compromising situations commonly enough to be a trope; even if I reluctantly suggest the play on innocence is the main objective of such a show. As such, essentially all rom-com and harem shows of late are out for being so prominently hostile to my western sensibilities.

Oddly (but perhaps not strangely) enough, I also penalize works that tactlessly use animation and manga techniques sloppily: namely stark proportion/chibi changes and simplified shading for dramatic/comical effect.

An example is in order: FMA:B and FLCL. Both of these series display characters lashing out in over exaggerated caricatures in response to somewhat predictable stimuli. Why does one make me sick to my stomach (FMA:B), and the other doesn’t faze me? I believe it is due to how well each (example) services its respective work. In FMA, I could count on one elbow how many of Ed’s outbursts brought even a smirk to my face or made me think “This sure makes me enjoy this show more”. The rest of the show is completely divorced from them and they only serve to ham-fist in comedic relief in such sporadic and jarring transitions that they are doomed to failure. All of the strong narrative, the themes of hope, struggle, repentance, the tone, and the generally great animation juxtaposition next to that, and it creates an unevenness that does not serve the story, much less make it more watchable. In short, almost all of the simplified animation techniques used in FMA serve to at best destroy the watcher’s immersion, and at worst reflect poorly on anime as a whole. I still think it’s a modern classic; I just couldn’t recommend it to an acquaintance knowing that they might be turned off by that aspect even ½ as much as I was.

FLCL, in my opinion, does this sort of thing right by matching the ebb and flow of the episodes to a perfect tempo of rise and climax. That, coupled with the generally less heavy-handed dialogue and scenarios makes FLCL feel more like a cartoon in the sense that it invites viewers to pick out what they like from the madness on display, instead of baiting and switching them with jarring exposition, or at least doing it often enough that a detractor could abandon all hope of enjoying it within ½ of an episode. Don’t get me wrong; there aren’t enough controlled substances in this hemisphere to make me think recommending this to an uninitiated out of the blue would be a good idea, but I would not be as embarrassed to watch it with someone willing to try it as I would the above. I would just forewarn that it is ‘pretty zany’.

In short; I know animation can be fantastical; it’s been done, and done well. Please show me how your story, character, or setting… your ideas, really can be amazing and enhanced with the techniques of animation… not that you think I won’t laugh at your straight man jokes if they are delivered by something resembling a human being (or whatever is telling jokes nowadays).

Off of the soapbox…

That was the major one. Other general annoyances include:

Talking animals – I believe I could enjoy this when I was young, and Kyuubi was unnerving in Madoka, but as a trope (sidekick) it just feels tired.

The entire “Dude paired with a combat loli” genre (that’s a genre, right?): After the original GSG, this trope became steadily less interesting as no authors were willing to introduce new story elements aside from the idea that being a battle loli is tough and unfair and kinda sad… boo hoo… They might as well format them like a buddy cop movie, as I always felt that fun, upbeat stories suit the perky lolis more.

Emo characters. This is a tough one, because it can be done right or it can be done so so so wrong, and I struggle to differentiate why! I think, though, that it is actually the level of moping that separates, in my eyes, the tolerable troubled from the helplessly hedonistic. Works with an ‘emotionally scarred’ lead get extra scrutiny from me during its opening scenes as I determine (guess, really) if I feel I’ll be able to engage with a show or movie based around this (its) depiction of unhappiness.

[shinta|hikari]

@Darth - You don't hate fanservice, but do you like it? Would you specifically watch a show because of fanservice? Because the shows out there seem to indicate that is the case with its target audience.

I said "we hate fanservice" because I was thinking that "we" get the recommendation, since I did ask what anime you would not recommend to anime fans.

@Ryll - I personally cannot see the difference between those. I honestly try to give these shows a try, maybe 4-6 episodes, before I really just cannot tolerate it anymore. I did watch Qwaser to the end though, so that counts for something.

[DarthEnderX]

@Darth - You don't hate fanservice, but do you like it?Yes.


Would you specifically watch a show because of fanservice?No. I have porn for that.

For example, Highschool of the Damned has a ton of fanservice, but I started watching the show because the concept seemed interesting. The fact that I grew to like the females in the cast, and then got to see fanservice focused on them, is great. But I would never start watching a show in the first place just because of that.

If someone said, "Hey, you should watch this show, it's got lots of sexy girls who's clothes fall off a lot" my answer is "Or I could just go watch hentai..."

[Kraco]

Would you ever recommend Qwaser to a friend or family member, Ryll?

I could recommend it to somebody who watches lots of anime (but I don't have such friends or family members). I wouldn't recommend it to somebody who watches anime only occasionally because there would be lots of higher quality shows they could use their limited time on. Though I haven't watched the second season, but Qwaser did have a plot and action, not only girls parading with bare tits.

[Ryllharu]

Would you ever recommend Qwaser to a friend or family member, Ryll?
Probably not...but then again, Qwaser is over the top just enough for it to cross into absurd territory. That's what makes it funny enough to be watchable. Like the fact that Sasha often does a dragonball-style power-up scream (Uwoaaaaaaaaa!!!) while sucking on breasts.

Of everything on that list, Qwaser (surprisingly) and Daphne are the two worth recommending to family.

edit:
Qwaser falls into the "Do you want to see something hilariously bad?" category. Daphne falls into the watchable but potentially offensive due to ecchiness territory.

[Xelbair]

Lolis are fine, as long as they aren't sexualized.
One sided incest is fine, but fulfilled one is... weird.
Fanservice - depends on how absurd it is, and its focus - like Ryll said there is very thin line between shit and "so bad that is good".
When it comes to fetishes - if it is all in moderation ,or there is focus on one or two its fine... but not when they are added just to get more ppl to buy their stuff.

i also HATE censoring that is just there so ppl will buy blurays - it is fine if you are watching BD and are few seasons behind but it is still annoying.

now i'm also repulsed by classic Rie Style tsundere. There were too many of them, now if i hear voice remotely similar in tone i cringe irl.

I don't get why people dislike the noblewoman's laugh - it can be overused.. but when its in 'moderation' (Naga @ Slayers) it is great. Heck - it can be even used as weapon.

I also slowly get put off by retarded misunderstandings - but it is because it was, and still is, overused trope. Some series (Nisekoi manga for example) break this trope sometimes and it is... refreshing.

[DarthEnderX]

Lolis are fine, as long as they aren't sexualized.There's no such thing.

Just because there's a young girl in an anime, doesn't automatically make that character a loli. Lolis are, by definition, characters designed to appeal to lolicons. It's the sexualization of a young girl that makes her character a loli.

[MFauli]

disagree. Obviously, you can sexualize young girls by using certain camera angles and such, but there´s a difference between just showing off a loli, and actually sexualizing one. Cant think of examples for the former, but for the latter. Like the sister in No game no Life. The creator gave her a cold, mature personality, despite her being a prepubecsent girl. THAT is the kind of shit loli that I hate.

[shinta|hikari]

Does a loli have to be sexualized to appeal to lolicons? Isn't being a lolicon by definition liking little girls, regardless of sexualization?

[Kraco]

Just because there's a young girl in an anime, doesn't automatically make that character a loli. Lolis are, by definition, characters designed to appeal to lolicons. It's the sexualization of a young girl that makes her character a loli.

I used to think like that, but then I took too many hits from the reality. A person with no lolicon mentality would enjoy watching kids being kids in anime (assuming the person doesn't consider young characters annoying), never seeing anything more than that in it, but for lolicons they are all sexualised by default. It's all in the eye of the beholder, regardless of what the story author / director wanted.

[shinta|hikari]

I agree. Fresh meat in front of a lion, no matter how it is presented, will still be perceived as food.

[DarthEnderX]

but for lolicons they are all sexualised by default. It's all in the eye of the beholder, regardless of what the story author / director wanted.I agree with that. But whether the character is a loli or not is based on author's intention. Lolicons will sexualize a young girl character whether it's a loli or not.

The sexualization doesn't even have to be overt. The character basically just has to exist purely to provide service to Lolicons. I think a character like Wendy in Fairy Tail is an example of this. I don't think that character would exist in that form if Mashima wasn't trying to check off boxes on a list of target audiences.

[shinta|hikari]

I dunno. I have always thought that loli = little girl. Maybe even loli = looks like a little girl, because so many lolis out there are either vampires, witches, or gods that do not look their age.

[Buffalobiian]

Would Kyon's sister be considered a loli?

[shinta|hikari]

Yes, she is. (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g310/shinta617/Kyons-Sister-in-Luggage_zpse1c09a44.jpg)

[Kraco]

The sexualization doesn't even have to be overt. The character basically just has to exist purely to provide service to Lolicons. I think a character like Wendy in Fairy Tail is an example of this. I don't think that character would exist in that form if Mashima wasn't trying to check off boxes on a list of target audiences.

You are selling her short. Mashima is hardly a good writer, but I never felt Wendy was there just to placate lolicons. In my non-lolicon eyes I can't view her as sexy standing next to the likes of Juvia, but I like Wendy as a character because Mashima did manage to give her some childish characteristics. I find it cute how she's just a little girl whereas all the other dragon slayers are gruffy men, yet she's still doing her best in all the fights she's continuously facing as a main character. Furthermore, even on a more basic level I can't help but pity her situation where she has no friends of the same age around but is always in the company of adults (even if some of those adults are almost like kids anyway, like Natsu and Gray). Nah, Fairy Tail wouldn't anymore be Fairy Tail without her.

[DarthEnderX]

You are selling her short. Mashima is hardly a good writer, but I never felt Wendy was there just to placate lolicons.I'm not saying she's a completely one-dimensional character. You can add a character to appeal to lolicons but actually give said character depth.

Wendy was created to meet a loli quota in the same way Chopper was created to meet a mascot quota in One Piece, but both characters are much more developed than that.

[shinta|hikari]

Just like how Bisky and Komugi were included to meet the loli quota in HxH.

[DarthEnderX]

There's no way Komugi is intended to be a Loli. Everything about her seems specially designed to be unappealing.

[shinta|hikari]

I was being sarcastic.

Even Bisky has a giant ugly form that even lolicons will be turned off by. Rather than meeting a loli quota, it was almost as if the author was trolling lolicons.

[Kraco]

Wendy was created to meet a loli quota in the same way Chopper was created to meet a mascot quota in One Piece, but both characters are much more developed than that.

Unless you have read Mashima say that in an interview, I won't believe it. I'm 100% sure Mashima has enjoyed drawing/writing Wendy just as well as any of the central characters, she has served the plot (as far as you can talk about a plot in FT) in her own unique way, plus there are lots of non-lolicon readers/watchers who enjoy her character's escapades in a nonsexual way. You sound like there would be something strange about a kid being there, and so Mashima would have needed some external reason (serving lolicons) to place one in the story. A society can't exist too long without children; there's nothing strange about them.

[Ryllharu]

I'm confident that the only characters created to meet a quota in Fairy Tail are Lucy and Happy.

She's meant to meet the Elie Quota.
Happy meets the Fucking Weird and Mostly Useless Animal(?) Quota.

[DarthEnderX]

She's meant to meet the Elie Quota.I don't get the reference.


Happy meets the Fucking Weird and Mostly Useless Animal(?) Quota.That's the Mascot Quota. A.K.A. the "we need something we can sell plushies of" quota.

[fireheart]

I don't get the reference.

She's a character from Mashimas previous work Rave, by the way there's a bunch of references to Rave in Fairy Tail.

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/089/b/3/fairytail_x_rave___lucy_and_elie_by_dannex009-d5zrqp0.png

[DarthEnderX]

Ah. If they're so similar, maybe I should check that show out. Considering Lucy is probably my favorite female anime character.

[shinta|hikari]

Lucy is your favorite female anime character???

Rave does not end in the anime. You will need to read the manga after it if you want a decent conclusion.

[DarthEnderX]

Lucy is your favorite female anime character???I think so.


Rave does not end in the anime. You will need to read the manga after it if you want a decent conclusion.Bleh.

[fireheart]

Ah. If they're so similar, maybe I should check that show out. Considering Lucy is probably my favorite female anime character.

You can always check out the Fairy Tail x Rave OVA to get a peek at the characters in Rave, but like Shinta says it kinda ends in the middle of the show.

Edit: On topic, like Shinta I'm not really uncomfortable with most animes, I still cringe at some embarrassing situations though mostly things that are closer to adolescent embarrassing. But I'm fine with incest etc since there's been so many of them that I don't really think about them anymore. But I wouldn't suggest them to people who don't watch anime.

When talking about lolis I'd recommend Usagi Drop to others in a heartbeat and think it'd be a good show to start if people want to see something more serious, mature and heartwarming. Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood also works but not for everyone because it's pretty long.

Also haven't seen Qwaser, Queen's Blade etc so can't comment on them, but I couldn't really stand watching the first episode of Daimidaler. Just not for me.

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah, I just watched the previews about Daimidaler and never picked it up.

I generally dislike and would never recommend shows that have "fanservice" as part of the plot, like all the kissing in Campione, the boob sucking in Qwaser, or the groping in Daimidaler. The entire premise is just too stupid.

[Ryllharu]

by the way there's a bunch of references to Rave in Fairy Tail.
The most obvious being Lucy and Erza's favorite clothing brand is the same one Elie wears all the time.

[fireheart]

Yeah, I just watched the previews about Daimidaler and never picked it up.

I generally dislike and would never recommend shows that have "fanservice" as part of the plot, like all the kissing in Campione, the boob sucking in Qwaser, or the groping in Daimidaler. The entire premise is just too stupid.

Yeah same here, though I was more ok with it in Champione probably because I read what it was about and was interested in the whole God slaying thing before he started making out with every girl like crazy.


The most obvious being Lucy and Erza's favorite clothing brand is the same one Elie wears all the time.

I always thought the most obvious one was Plue because you get to see him so early, though you don't really see him very often. Then there's Sieg/Jellal which is one of the most obvious recurring references though I suppose you're right in the sense that we see the Heart Cruz brand more often than the others.

[Buffalobiian]

Staying on topic, I´d actually love to watch an anime about a successful incest relationship for once.

I just watched the first episode of Mahouka, and it made me realise why some incest themes are rather pleasing to watch. The attraction comes from the devotion of (usually) the younger sister towards her brother, the respect she gives him based on their elder/younger relationship and the way this plays out while living under the same roof (as opposed to just at schools/cafe/training).

The "taboo" aspect is enhancing in that the sister will act this way despite knowing society thinks badly about it. It clearly tells you the brother means more than the world to her.

I wouldn't shy away from recommending an incest anime based on that alone. I would warn someone that it contains incestuous themes in case it's something they'll avoid, but the recommendation goes out anyway.