Martial Arts

[Sapphire]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3OgpLmtQuE

So is anyone into martial arts?

What's the best martial art?

[Ryllharu]

It was appalling how much energy she was wasting just hopping around in circles, over and over again. Not really necessary because he didn't put much effort in, or have any technique.

(edit: also surprised at the youtube comments that say she won. The video cuts each time he knocks her down, which is often.)


What's the best martial art?

From a practicality standpoint? Brazilian jujitsu, Marine Corps Martial Arts and its Russian equivalent Systema, or Krav Maga.

In terms of fun? I've always been partial toward Savate, but there's no place to learn it where I am.

But I'm more into archery (it's a martial skill :D) anyway, instinctive shooting.

[David75]

Best? Depends on the objectives, right?

[darkshadow]

There is no best martial art, though Jeet kune do embodies the principles of potentially being the best: Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless; every art has its strengths, combine multiple arts to get rid of the flaws.

[shinta|hikari]

That was a pretty stupid video.

I like kickboxing. I also do a little Tae Kwon Do and Judo.

[Animeniax]

Why have it man vs woman? Are they trying to show that a woman using karate can compete with a male "street fighter"? Ridiculous. The problem with karate (and TKD, etc) is that its main use is in sport competition, where they score by light taps, not actual blows. Meanwhile styles like Muay Thai and Dutch kickboxing are practiced full contact in promotions like Glory, Lion Fights, and the UFC. So calling this a "real fight" is nonsense.

[Edort4]

Well you should have a clear focus in mind about what you want from it. Some styles have lots of martial in them (to the point where in my opinion they lose the arts part and is just learing how to brawl) and others have a more artistical/philosophical approach.

One that combines a bit of both worlds would be full contact karate. It has some "lets hurt us" component to it and still maintains the philosophy/lifestyle of karate based on self improvement.

[Animeniax]

While I understand that a large part of martial arts is the discipline instilled by repetition of complicated forms and sequences, I think styles like karate and TKD spend too much time on these forms or katas. Particularly in mcdojos, belt progression is achieved almost solely through learning the forms, not through sparring or practical use of the skills learned.

[shinta|hikari]

Well real traditional martial arts are quite deadly. The sports oriented versions nowadays are not the true form of Karate, TKD, or Kung Fu. Sport competitions have tons of rules in them, some even banning hits to the head. The older techniques of martial arts include a lot of groin kicking, eye poking, neck chopping, head butting and throat crushing, which have become absolutely useless in modern competition, including UFC etc. Traditional martial arts weren't just about Katas. They were used to kill as well. Peace has just completely removed that aspect nowadays.

[Ryllharu]

Particularly in mcdojos, belt progression is achieved almost solely through time and money-spent, not learning the forms, through sparring, practical use of the skills learned, or even a general aptitude at it.
Just two minor corrections.

There's a lot of those around my area (or pretty much anywhere in the US that's not a major city). I've never heard them called McDojo's before. Definitely stealing that.

It's pretty funny hearing stories of people absolutely bewildered that they can't beat someone with a lower belt in sparring.

[Sapphire]

I wanna learn wushu or ninjutsu, lol. :o

[Animeniax]

I'd say for street fighting that wrestling/grappling is the best skill to learn, followed by judo and boxing. If you can wrestle your opponent down, you've almost won the fight in most cases. Judo helps you get them to the ground as well.


There's a lot of those around my area (or pretty much anywhere in the US that's not a major city). I've never heard them called McDojo's before. Definitely stealing that.

It's pretty funny hearing stories of people absolutely bewildered that they can't beat someone with a lower belt in sparring.Most dojos will be the mcdojo type because of liability and it's what parents want for their kids... some semblance of physical activity and progression without serious risk of injury.

The term "mcdojo" isn't mine, it's fairly common in the martial arts world, considering the fast-food/processed mindset of most dojos.

[shinta|hikari]

Grappling is extremely effective in mixed martial arts and "street fighting" because people don't want or aren't allowed to kill each other. If someone tries to grapple you, headbutt them in the nose then gouge out their eyes. If you can't reach their face, crush or hit their testicles. It does not require a lot of space and impact to deliver crushing blows if you are allowed to hit vital points.

[Animeniax]

Easier said than done. A good grappler controls your body and limbs, making it hard for you to hit them or get your hands on them.

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah, but it is a hell of a lot easier than having none of those options while being grappled. There is a reason why those moves are banned in competition. It is because they are too effective.

[Animeniax]

Too effective or too deadly/leads to serious injury? That's not exactly the kind of competition most consider "sport."

Still, if we're talking about what martial art to learn that is most effective in real world scenarios, grappling is up there. Though for me, I'd hate to get in a fight with someone who knows how to wrestle.

[Uchiha Barles]

I love martial arts. I've been practicing Wing Chun for over a decade now and it is my favorite style, mostly because its principles resonate with me on an intellectual level. Before that I did Shotokan Karate, and Aiki-jujutsu. As far as what the best martial is...it probably depends on you. How you think, how you respond the training, and how much confidence you have to apply the techniques of the styles you come into contact with.


I wanna learn wushu or ninjutsu, lol. :o

I don't know if there actually is a combat/self-defense oriented martial called "wushu", though I've heard the term used in conjunction with Chinese competitive martial arts, where they display artistic ability in unarmed and weapon forms. For ninjutsu, I had the chance to train for a couple of sessions with a pretty solid instructor. I didn't learn too much by way of combat other than basic stances, footwork, and two basic fist strikes, but this guy was impressive. His movements were quick and subtle, and his footwork was at once agile and stable, it was inspiring. I have no doubt that training under that guy and doing what he tells you to do, you could become a great fighter.

And there's the catch: just about any martial art can produce a proficient fighter if that fighter works hard at it. With that in mind, first decide if you're willing to bust your ass learning a martial art, then research different styles to find the one (or the several) that mesh well with who you are and how you think. Then pick one and devote yourself to it for some time.

[Animeniax]

A lot of martial arts schools (in strip malls) have 30 day trial periods, so you could visit some of those and see if you like the style and the instructors. Also, your university might have some martial arts clubs you can join to try out and meet people. I learned some judo in such a club... didn't stick with it because of a bum hip. Getting thrown to the mat when you have a bad hip is not fun.

[lelouch]

I wanna learn wushu or ninjutsu, lol. :o

There's a ninjutsu training camp in midwestern US - they teach you to climb trees and throw shuriken and stuff like that.

[Animeniax]

Is ninjutsu an actual martial art with forms and body techniques? It's not just learning how to sneak around, throw smoke bombs, throw Chinese stars, and kill people with blowguns, is it?

[Uchiha Barles]

Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, all that other stuff is a big part of it, but if they *have* to fight instead of take you out like an assassin, they can making use of extremely effective footwork, grapples, joint manipulations, and precision strikes.

edit: Actually, it seems that ninjutsu *used* to mean solely the study of those guerrilla tactics as schools used specific terms for various aspects of martial arts. Ninjutsu was only one such aspect. Nowadays though, it seems to refer to a complete system based around guerrilla combat.

[KrayZ33]

isn't "ninjutsu" the overall term used for their training

so it includes both unarmed and armed training, espionage and camouflage etc etc.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't know if there actually is a combat/self-defense oriented martial called "wushu",

"Wushu" in literally means 'martial arts' in Chinese. I don't know if that has a contemporary, narrowed meaning now. I'm guessing it's just the general term used to mean Chinese Martial Arts, and the instructors just teach you whatever sub-category they are willing or capable of teaching.

For all intents and purposes, 'Kung Fu' and 'Wushu' might as well be synonymous. The former's simply a Cantonese phrase.

[Ryllharu]

In the US anyway, "wushu" refers to acrobatic martial arts displays, not the sparring part of it. It's an exhibition sport, similar to Floor gymnastics.

[MFauli]

oh god, im too tired. was thinking up some provoking reply for this thread that combines sexism, misogynism, criminality and idiocy. Will try to come up with a proper troll reply tomorrow. good night, minna!

[Edort4]

oh god, im too tired. was thinking up some provoking reply for this thread that combines sexism, misogynism, criminality and idiocy. Will try to come up with a proper troll reply tomorrow. good night, minna!

¿Something about Wushu lovers craving for a long thick spear to hold in their hands and move around their bodies trying to get to a zen ecstasy?

Wushu is Rhythmic Gymnastics with other tools IMHO not much of a martial art "per se" but im biased here.

[Killa-Eyez]

1620

Jet Li - Wushu
Donnie Yen- Wushu
Jing Wu - Wushu

I guess studying Wushu will make you a great martial artist on-screen. I think it's also a good prep to learn any other martial arts.

I myself had a couple of lessons in Tang Soo Do, got blue belt in Free Fight Wushu style and when Ip Man came out I did some Wing Chun too. I think the latter is the most all round kung fu out there, except maybe for Jeet Kune Do (which is hard to master compared to Wing Chun). I'm not much into other fighting sports that take too much towards brawling. Like Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai or Wrestling. They're too straight forward. Also, what is said in Ip Man that Wing Chun is a woman's martial art and therefore inferior but that it doesn't lie in the style but in the practitioner, is something that applies to any martial art really.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=646427505415711

[Buffalobiian]

What do you mean by 'they're too straight forward'?

[Killa-Eyez]

Their elegance leaves a little to the imagination. It's very obviously "to hurt or take down, regardless", while some martial arts have a little more complex ways to take an enemy down as simple as they may seem. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate a tough Muay Thai fighter or a speedy and powerful boxer but their martial arts are ones I'd never practice. I'd like to see opponents dominated physically and mentally, without hurting them too much, so they realize that there's no point in fighting (lulz). So those are the ones I like.

[Uchiha Barles]

There we go! Perfect example of what I mean by finding an art that meshes with who you are and how you think.

[Buffalobiian]

Ah. In that case I like the opposite. The key I'm looking for is effectiveness. I suppose that means brawling.

Given that I'm not talented physically nor with quick-thinking, I would want to learn something that is simple and effective without thinking too much about complicated locks etc. If a move looks great and is effective, that's awesome. If a move doesn't look cinematic but is physically effective - good. If a move looks good but isn't the most effective one for the given purpose, I would look elsewhere.

If I was to learn martial arts, my objective would be to best my opponent. I'm more interested in coming out of a fight unhurt (defense) as opposed to finding ways to take out my opponent quickly and surely (offense). The two aren't mutually exclusive of course, but you get the idea.
If an attack involves me risking myself a lot to punch the hell out of my opponent, I'd go for safer techniques. This assumes that the opponent staying 'up' longer doesn't become riskier than the initial move.

[Uchiha Barles]

Most arts I can think of do a combination of simple but effective things, and more complex looking things (which can also be effective). I'll give you an example. In the beginning, after having reached a minimal required level of physical conditioning through calisthenics and form practice, our typical training day would include 1.5 hours of basic technique practice. We would normally focus on 2 out of 6 types of blocks/parries and appropriate counterattacks with those blocks/parries. Very tedious work that builds skill quickly. Afterwards, we'd spend about .5 hours to an hour doing applications, which were the fancy stuff you're mentioning. We call them "applications" because that's what they are, techniques designed to open your eyes to the versatility of the things you just drilled in combat situations. The training was similar shotokan and aiki-jujutsu in terms of how the training was structured. I imagine it's the same for thai boxing if Tony Jaa movies are to be believed.

What I've found, is the fancy stuff ends up being successfully used faaar more often against untrained/poorly trained combatants, while against well trained combatants, you're relying heavily on the basic stuff. What I mean by that is, you might find opportunity in an exchange to apply a "fancy" technique, but the better your opponent is, the more likely he is to sense the impending danger and respond appropriately, forcing you to abandon the technique and adjust as appropriate. This usually means falling back to a basic parry/counterattack. Even against skilled opponents though, you can still often land those fancy techniques and they can be fight enders.

[Xelbair]

Their elegance leaves a little to the imagination. It's very obviously "to hurt or take down, regardless", while some martial arts have a little more complex ways to take an enemy down as simple as they may seem. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate a tough Muay Thai fighter or a speedy and powerful boxer but their martial arts are ones I'd never practice. I'd like to see opponents dominated physically and mentally, without hurting them too much, so they realize that there's no point in fighting (lulz). So those are the ones I like.

*cough* aikido *cough*


Most arts I can think of do a combination of simple but effective things, and more complex looking things (which can also be effective). I'll give you an example. In the beginning, after having reached a minimal required level of physical conditioning through calisthenics and form practice, our typical training day would include 1.5 hours of basic technique practice. We would normally focus on 2 out of 6 types of blocks/parries and appropriate counterattacks with those blocks/parries. Very tedious work that builds skill quickly. Afterwards, we'd spend about .5 hours to an hour doing applications, which were the fancy stuff you're mentioning. We call them "applications" because that's what they are, techniques designed to open your eyes to the versatility of the things you just drilled in combat situations. The training was similar shotokan and aiki-jujutsu in terms of how the training was structured. I imagine it's the same for thai boxing if Tony Jaa movies are to be believed.

What I've found, is the fancy stuff ends up being successfully used faaar more often against untrained/poorly trained combatants, while against well trained combatants, you're relying heavily on the basic stuff. What I mean by that is, you might find opportunity in an exchange to apply a "fancy" technique, but the better your opponent is, the more likely he is to sense the impending danger and respond appropriately, forcing you to abandon the technique and adjust as appropriate. This usually means falling back to a basic parry/counterattack. Even against skilled opponents though, you can still often land those fancy techniques and they can be fight enders.

Also - i am training iaido and kendo - but i had to take a 1,5 month break due to sickness and university. In Iaido you usually train without an opponent, but because in my club there are really few iaido trainees, because of that we sometimes end up training directly with sensei. It is the perfect training at hiding your intentions - you have to seriously remove all useless movements to not give away what are you going to do or you'll get 'sliced' by sensei.

[poopdeville]

Wing chun is the shit. Watch your centerline and balance, punch fast, punch hard, kick low. There's a reason why Bruce Lee chose to use it as the basis of jeet kun do. If you can stay off the ground, you can keep up with any style.

I'm a big fan of boxing, though I wouldn't take it up as a sport.

[shinta|hikari]

Boxing is fantastic for striking. It is basically the most efficient method of fist offense in the entire martial arts world. If you allow a boxer all of his illegal punches, he would be extremely lethal.

[Sapphire]

Like what illegal punches?

[shinta|hikari]

Rabbit punch, below the belt, liver blow, etc.

[Buffalobiian]

Liver blows are illegal? Ippo does it all the time >_>

[shinta|hikari]

I thought liver blows were against the rules, but google says otherwise. Let me replace that with any blow that hits the back.

[Buffalobiian]

The only problem with boxing is that the practitioners are used to hitting heads with gloves (and hiding behind fists), which isn't practical in a real fight. Before gloves were used in boxing, people used to fight leaning back to keep their heads out of the way while striking body blows mainly.

If you're training for real encounters, you'll have to practice hitting hard with soft (head with palm) and soft with hard (body with fist). It's too slow to think about that in a situation and you'll just throw whatever you've trained in.

See boxer's fracture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer%27s_fracture). Wiki says it happens with improper form, but the bones of the hand are much weaker than the skull. I really do have to wonder at what would happen when someone punches a hard head/wall with proper form.

It's one example of where the art's evolved into sports by developing effective methods given rule constraints.

[Animeniax]

I thought liver blows were against the rules, but google says otherwise. Let me replace that with any blow that hits the back.

Liver shots (or better known as body shots) are legal as they come from the front. You're probably thinking of kidney blows because those are from behind. Also donkey punches (to the back of the head) are illegal.

[shinta|hikari]

Yeah, it was kidney shot.

You are referring to a Rabbit Punch. A donkey punch, is well, used in an entirely different context...

[Animeniax]

Yeah, it was kidney shot.

You are referring to a Rabbit Punch. A donkey punch, is well, used in an entirely different context...

Yeah that's what I meant, rabbit punch. Though donkey punches are illegal too, as they are a form of rabbit punch :D.

[Killa-Eyez]

*cough* aikido *cough*

A little too soft. I'd look for a better combination of punches and kicks and grabs which still holds finesse like Aikido, etc.


The only problem with boxing is that the practitioners are used to hitting heads with gloves (and hiding behind fists), which isn't practical in a real fight. Before gloves were used in boxing, people used to fight leaning back to keep their heads out of the way while striking body blows mainly.

For example in Wing Chun.


Yeah that's what I meant, rabbit punch. Though donkey punches are illegal too, as they are a form of rabbit punch :D.

Unless she consents. ;)

[Animeniax]

Unless she consents. ;)

That'd be a different kind of live show :D:D (we were talking about illegal moves in boxing matches).

[Uchiha Barles]

The only problem with boxing is that the practitioners are used to hitting heads with gloves (and hiding behind fists), which isn't practical in a real fight. Before gloves were used in boxing, people used to fight leaning back to keep their heads out of the way while striking body blows mainly.

If you're training for real encounters, you'll have to practice hitting hard with soft (head with palm) and soft with hard (body with fist). It's too slow to think about that in a situation and you'll just throw whatever you've trained in.

See boxer's fracture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer%27s_fracture). Wiki says it happens with improper form, but the bones of the hand are much weaker than the skull. I really do have to wonder at what would happen when someone punches a hard head/wall with proper form.

It's one example of where the art's evolved into sports by developing effective methods given rule constraints.

This is absolutely correct. Boxers can be beasts but I never liked the fact that they specifically train to block incoming force by hiding behind their hands and arms. What if they're facing someone with a knife? They still have their highly effective evasive maneuvers, but to paraphrase what you said, what's going to come out in a stressful situation are the things they repeated thousands of times during training. Those arms are bound to come up to block...at least that's my thinking.

[Ryllharu]

Ah. In that case I like the opposite. The key I'm looking for is effectiveness. I suppose that means brawling.

Given that I'm not talented physically nor with quick-thinking, I would want to learn something that is simple and effective without thinking too much about complicated locks etc.
Fight dirty. Go for the maiming.

Eye pokes, grab edge of jaw and pull forward to break it, kick hard at side of knee or front of ankles, etc.

Then run like hell.

[shinta|hikari]

Jeet Kun Do self defense moves has a lot of those. I mean, 90% of the situational moves end with a kick in the groin.

[darkshadow]

The only problem with boxing is that the practitioners are used to hitting heads with gloves (and hiding behind fists), which isn't practical in a real fight. Before gloves were used in boxing, people used to fight leaning back to keep their heads out of the way while striking body blows mainly.

If you're training for real encounters, you'll have to practice hitting hard with soft (head with palm) and soft with hard (body with fist). It's too slow to think about that in a situation and you'll just throw whatever you've trained in.

See boxer's fracture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer%27s_fracture). Wiki says it happens with improper form, but the bones of the hand are much weaker than the skull. I really do have to wonder at what would happen when someone punches a hard head/wall with proper form.

It's one example of where the art's evolved into sports by developing effective methods given rule constraints.

I've broken my thumb once with a strike, only because my opponent stepped forward and my fist wasn't fully closed yet, proper form is goddamn important.


*cough* aikibudo *cough*

FTFY

Also any martial artist should do some boxing as well and not just for the striking, as far as my experience goes, boxing is the only sport where you'll learn how to effectively bob and weave from other strikes.