Naruto Chapter 626

[Marik]

MangaPanda (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/626)

[DB_Hunter]

Deep chapter, really good.

[MFauli]

defeated by a clone. yeah, sure.

[Assertn]

I guess you could say Hashirama has a woody for Madara.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

I am waiting for the 4th to Yellow-Flash his ass outta there!

[viperwasp]

I am waiting for the 4th to Yellow-Flash his ass outta there!

Yeah he must still have seals active somewhere.

[Roko]

Wait...I thought the sharingan could differentiate clones? Or is that only shadow clones? Unless I'm thinking of the byakugan.

[Assertn]

Wait...I thought the sharingan could differentiate clones? Or is that only shadow clones? Unless I'm thinking of the byakugan.

Only if the clone is a genjutu, I believe. Sharingan cannot differentiate between kage bunshins and other advanced bunshins.

[DB_Hunter]

I would have thought it would also depend on the ability of the one making the clone. Two people could use Kage Bunshin, but someone like Kakashi making one and say Konohamaru making one must have a world of difference in terms of quality.

[SilentSnake]

Only if the clone is a genjutu, I believe. Sharingan cannot differentiate between kage bunshins and other advanced bunshins.

I'm pretty sure they explained far back that kage bunshin is special because it's a forbidden jutsu creating the body and splitting the owner's chakra and THAT'S why sharingan can't distinguish it from the other clones.

Also, a regular bunshin is a ninjutsu, not a genjutsu, and can be differentiated by the sharingan.

Dunno why would a wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin vs Madara. Makes no sense if you ask me.

[Abdula]

Come on guys. The shadow clone is a forbidden jutsu because of the risk it poses to the user, i.e. running out of chakra and thereby killing yourself. I believe Yamato went over the many advantages wood clones have over shadow clones quite some time ago, back when 4-tailed was fighting Orochimaru. I believe it was also mentioned somewhere along the way that Hashirama with his wood clones was able to make perfect copies of himself and only Madara was able to see through them, as is mentioned here (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/577/12). I think it was mentioned again back when we had white zetsu hell not too long ago and Naruto with his Uzumaki evil intentions sensing bs was the only one able to tell who the copies were thus the need for him to send a clone of himself to every battlefield.

At this point we should all accept that wood is simply greater than everything else. Which is why Hashirama is regarded as the God of shinobi and everyone from Orochimaru, to Danzo, to Obito and Madara is using his cells.

[DB_Hunter]

The only explanation could be then the stabbed Madara is also a clone or a genjutsu projection, considering that he would have seen through Hashirama's technique.

[Abdula]

That is what I thought as well, based on the close up of Madara's EMS at the bottom of this (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/626/10) page. He probably cast a genjutsu on Hashirama, especially since in their next sequence of attacks he gets stabbed because of a clone and Hashirama from his conversation with Sasuke obviously assumes he killed Madara then but we know that is not when Madara died. That panel is really unnecessary otherwise unless Kishi just wanted to show Madara's EMS again.

Besides we go from a close up of the sharingan in one panel, which Kishimoto did often enough whenever Itachi casts genjutsu on someone, to a close up of the moon in the very next panel. Not to mention Madara telling Hashirama about living in a dream right before that and one can't help but think Tsukiyomi. The infinite Tsukiyomi is Madara's idea anyway and what this entire war is about but who knows. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this and he did just get stabbed through the chest doesn't matter too much either way.

[Tofu #2]

wow you guys are really looking into it too much. There have been many instances where a bunshin was created at the very last second and just swapped/kawarami/whateva

also, madara was not "defeated by a clone" nor is "wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin"
notice how the clone is on the ground and madara is standing?
(then again, of course a wood bunshin is more effective than a kage bunshin like Madara even said himself)

hell he doesn't even have his sharingan activated (error or not) if you really need an explanation

I highly doubt that Madara cast a genjutsu or made a clone, since he stated numerous times how he was defeated and left for dead in this battle, and up until getting shanked in the back, I would hardly say he was defeated.

[Assertn]

I'm pretty sure they explained far back that kage bunshin is special because it's a forbidden jutsu creating the body and splitting the owner's chakra and THAT'S why sharingan can't distinguish it from the other clones.

Also, a regular bunshin is a ninjutsu, not a genjutsu, and can be differentiated by the sharingan.

Dunno why would a wood bunshin be as effective as a kage bunshin vs Madara. Makes no sense if you ask me.

The evenly-distributed chakra part is why the BYAKUGAN can't distinguish from other clones, not sharingan.

[Tofu #2]

The evenly-distributed chakra part is why the BYAKUGAN can't distinguish from other clones, not sharingan.

Yea naruto took advantage of that against neji I believe

I don't think it was ever explicitly stated the Sharingan can't distinguish clones, but there's no evidence that supports it can, nor can I see any reason it would.

[viperwasp]

Yea naruto took advantage of that against neji I believe

I don't think it was ever explicitly stated the Sharingan can't distinguish clones, but there's no evidence that supports it can, nor can I see any reason it would.

Well unless it was none-canon during the chunin exam ark. Those gas mask like Ninja used water clones I think? It showed kind of how Sasuke saw them. And I forget if the Sharingan helped or not? I think it did to a degree. But those where not shadow clones?

But with shadow clones was there any time where Sasuke fought Naruto using his sharingan where sasuke was fooled by a shadow clones? I think there was? I don't think Sasuke can instantly tell them apart. I don't know though?

Now I think Madara can somehow tell shadow clones apart? Shortly after madara dropped into the battle like a rocket to backup obito. I think Madara made a comment about how this Naruto is a shadow clones too! Even before he would logically be able to tell or know? But I am not sure how accurate I remember that scene. So perhaps at least Madara can tell shadow clones apart? Overall personally I don't think anything can usually tell shadow clones from regular clones. Not even the sharingan? If madara did I'm not sure how he did it? Unless I am totally mistaken I am just mentioning what I remember. Also there is translation issues as well to consider. And I watched the anime back when Sasuke, Naruto and kabuto fought the gas masked ninja. So I don't even know if that was canon! Or how canon it really was some of it could have been none canon and or translation error.

All that ASIDE though!

I did want to mention something else that's my real reason for even replying in the first place. It's nothing important but it's interesting to think about.

I think me and my friend found a possible but obvious plot hole or loophole whatever you want to call it with the shadow clone jutsu! The user creates copies of clothing and weapons/tools right? Narutos clones all have Kunai right? You know back when he used to use Kunai and stuff! lol

But if I remember correctly he used various weapons in the fight VS Neji! Kunai and or shuriken...

The bodies all have equally distributed chakra so they cannot be identified as clones at least not by Neji. But the shadow cloned weapons and tools should also have some chakra in them. But the original Narutos tools and weapons should not have any chakra in them? Meaning someone like Neji who can easily see the tenketsu or whatever the tiny chakra nodes are called. Anyhow Neji should easily be able to see the chakra in the duplicated objects. Perhaps even within the holster Neji should be able to tell. But in the very least when thrown though the air the cloned Kunai and Shuriken should easily be detected as cloned. Meaning in most situations the source throwing them should also be clones. And the original should have weapons without chakra in them.

This should also be the same for other Ninja with abilities similar to Neji or with great chakra sensing capabilities. Which is not to many other people other than Neji but should include most or all sharingan/byakugan users.

I am not saying for sure this is a plothole and it's not a big deal at all. But I am just mentioning this because I find it at least a little interesting. Am I completely wrong? Did I miss something? You could perhaps say that a tool does not use Ninjutsu and stuff so the amount of Chakra in it must be smaller. But both the byakugan and sharingan at least from what I know are really good at seeing chakra. Even in small amounts... The byakugan even more so.

[Abdula]

Yea naruto took advantage of that against neji I believe

I don't think it was ever explicitly stated the Sharingan can't distinguish clones, but there's no evidence that supports it can, nor can I see any reason it would.
Though I don't remember it explicitly being stated, there is evidence enough to believe that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. Though, this is an old argument and I don't really want to get into it, not in that regard at least but oh well. There are many reasons why people think it would be able to see through shadow clones.

Let's just look at some of things the sharingan has been able to do so far, Sasuke for example. When he first met Naruto again after the time skip he was able to see into the Kyuubi's pocket dimension inside Naruto and forcibly suppress the Kyuubi's chakra because of his eyes. In his fight with Orochimaru he was again able to control Orochimaru's own little pocket dimension because of his eyes. There is his fight with Deidara where he was able to see through and counter almost every single one of Deidara's moves including seeing his bombs buried undeground by Tobi and his microscopic C4 level attacks not to mention this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-366-6/naruto/chapter-361.html). Then there is Madara using his sharingan to subjugate the Kyuubi here (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/568/7) and his words imply that any Uchiha with sufficient strength would be able to do the same. There is also Obito using the sharingan to literally rip the Kyuubi out of Kushina. In fact Itachi did tell Sasuke that simply awakening the MS would give any Uchiha the ability to completely control the Kyuubi, though at the cost of eventually going blind. Interesting that Obito doesn't seem to have that problem. Plus there is the fact that the sharingan can see chakra not to mention the constant boasts about the sharingan being able to see through everything, here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-367-2/naruto/chapter-362.html) for example. I mentioned in my first post in this thread Madara, Obito, Danzo and Orochimaru wanting Hashirama's cells. Well the other thing Danzo and Orochimaru wanted was sharingans.

It just makes it hard to believe that such a powerful eye technique wouldn't be able to see through a B-ranked skill that most konoha ninjas seem to know that requires one simple seal, muchless MS or EMS. A point I should make, I remember someone pointing out a few years ago that it isn't the shadow clone technique that was forbidden but the multiple shadow clone technique which is what Naruto actually learned way back in chapter 1. Anyway the point is that shadow clones are not all that special and they aren't something that is unique to Naruto. His ability to use them as he does because of his immense chakra reserves, due mostly to being the host for the kyuubi, is though. So yeah there are plenty of reasons why it would be reasonable for someone to think that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. The sharingan is extremely powerful for one thing and shadow clones just aren't on the same level as Hashirama's mokuton. We have seen so many people use mokuton at this point that I guess its understandable that most seem to have forgotten that it is a kekkei genkai unique to him and the only thing we have seen thus far that is anywhere near as overpowered as the sharingan is. The rinnegan doesn't count because it results from combining the Uchiha's and Senju's abilities.

Honestly I think the one thing the sharingan wouldn't be able to see through is Mu's ability to split himself, since that isn't a clone so there would be nothing to see through and as is mentioned here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-366-13/naruto/chapter-361.html) no matter how fast it happens as long as it is within the sharingan's field of vision they would still see it. There are a few ways people have tried to defeat the sharingan, for one thing as Gai said the first thing is to never look at their eyes. Itachi was able to completely defeat both Deidara and Orochimaru simply because they made the mistake of looking at his eyes. As we have seen it was how easily Itachi was able to defeat Orochimaru and cut off his hand that caused him to leave Akatsuki in the first place and as Sasuke said Orochimaru only came after him because he could not handle Itachi and Sasuke was the only other Uchiha. Another tactic that has been mentioned was by Zabuza, who said the best way to defeat the sharingan was to obscure its field of vision as he did with his hidden mist technique and fight by using sound. Another tactic which was mentioned by Chiyo, is to simply never fight against the sharingan one on one. Simply have one person to distract or otherwise neutralize the person using the sharingan while someone else attacks them from behind. Yet another tactic that has been mentioned is to simply have a sharingan of your own. What seems to work best is to simply be strong enough to be able to completely overpower the sharingan user and everything they can throw at you. As we saw back during the chuunin exam when Sasuke fought Rock Lee and as Gai has mentioned it doesn't matter if the sharingan can see through all your moves, if the person using it can't keep up with your speed then you can beat them with just taijutsu. If your ninjutsu is simply more powerful than a sharingan users ninjutsu then you can defeat their ninjutsu, if you are strong enough or versatile enough to simply break out of their genjutsu or are simply immune to it then you can win. We've seen Sasuke get his ass handed to him enough times to prove that, most notably at the Kage summit and by Killer Bee. It also seems to be the case with Hashirama and Madara where regardless of Madara having sharingan, MS, EMS or the Kyuubi. Hashirama is simply stronger than he is. As Sasuke said the sharingan is just a tool and like any tool it is only as powerful as the person using it, same could be said for Naruto's shadow clones. Really it raises a good question. Do you think Madara with Hashirama's cells which give him the use of Mokuton and Rinnegan would be stronger than Hashirama if he had a sharingan, MS, EMS and Rinnegan?

Anyway there has been a lot of inconsistencies with the sharingan and shadow clones and pretty much everything else in this manga but that is Naruto. Another thing to keep in mind is that we haven't seen that many sharingans, and as has been implied many times, other than the basic abilities the sharingan seems to bestow unique abilities upon some of its users. Sasuke, Itachi and Madara all seem to have the same abilities but we know form Itachi and Danzo that Shisui's sharingan and MS granted him different abilities and Obito's gave him and Kakashi different abilities as well. Then there is Izanagi and Izanami. So I just wouldn't underestimate the sharingan.

[Tofu #2]

Though I don't remember it explicitly being stated, there is evidence enough to believe that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. Though, this is an old argument and I don't really want to get into it, not in that regard at least but oh well. There are many reasons why people think it would be able to see through shadow clones.

Let's just look at some of things the sharingan has been able to do so far, Sasuke for example. When he first met Naruto again after the time skip he was able to see into the Kyuubi's pocket dimension inside Naruto and forcibly suppress the Kyuubi's chakra because of his eyes. In his fight with Orochimaru he was again able to control Orochimaru's own little pocket dimension because of his eyes. There is his fight with Deidara where he was able to see through and counter almost every single one of Deidara's moves including seeing his bombs buried undeground by Tobi and his microscopic C4 level attacks not to mention this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-366-6/naruto/chapter-361.html). Then there is Madara using his sharingan to subjugate the Kyuubi here (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/568/7) and his words imply that any Uchiha with sufficient strength would be able to do the same. There is also Obito using the sharingan to literally rip the Kyuubi out of Kushina. In fact Itachi did tell Sasuke that simply awakening the MS would give any Uchiha the ability to completely control the Kyuubi, though at the cost of eventually going blind. Interesting that Obito doesn't seem to have that problem. Plus there is the fact that the sharingan can see chakra not to mention the constant boasts about the sharingan being able to see through everything, here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-367-2/naruto/chapter-362.html) for example. I mentioned in my first post in this thread Madara, Obito, Danzo and Orochimaru wanting Hashirama's cells. Well the other thing Danzo and Orochimaru wanted was sharingans.

It just makes it hard to believe that such a powerful eye technique wouldn't be able to see through a B-ranked skill that most konoha ninjas seem to know that requires one simple seal, muchless MS or EMS. A point I should make, I remember someone pointing out a few years ago that it isn't the shadow clone technique that was forbidden but the multiple shadow clone technique which is what Naruto actually learned way back in chapter 1. Anyway the point is that shadow clones are not all that special and they aren't something that is unique to Naruto. His ability to use them as he does because of his immense chakra reserves, due mostly to being the host for the kyuubi, is though. So yeah there are plenty of reasons why it would be reasonable for someone to think that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. The sharingan is extremely powerful for one thing and shadow clones just aren't on the same level as Hashirama's mokuton. We have seen so many people use mokuton at this point that I guess its understandable that most seem to have forgotten that it is a kekkei genkai unique to him and the only thing we have seen thus far that is anywhere near as overpowered as the sharingan is. The rinnegan doesn't count because it results from combining the Uchiha's and Senju's abilities.

Honestly I think the one thing the sharingan wouldn't be able to see through is Mu's ability to split himself, since that isn't a clone so there would be nothing to see through and as is mentioned here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-366-13/naruto/chapter-361.html) no matter how fast it happens as long as it is within the sharingan's field of vision they would still see it. There are a few ways people have tried to defeat the sharingan, for one thing as Gai said the first thing is to never look at their eyes. Itachi was able to completely defeat both Deidara and Orochimaru simply because they made the mistake of looking at his eyes. As we have seen it was how easily Itachi was able to defeat Orochimaru and cut off his hand that caused him to leave Akatsuki in the first place and as Sasuke said Orochimaru only came after him because he could not handle Itachi and Sasuke was the only other Uchiha. Another tactic that has been mentioned was by Zabuza, who said the best way to defeat the sharingan was to obscure its field of vision as he did with his hidden mist technique and fight by using sound. Another tactic which was mentioned by Chiyo, is to simply never fight against the sharingan one on one. Simply have one person to distract or otherwise neutralize the person using the sharingan while someone else attacks them from behind. Yet another tactic that has been mentioned is to simply have a sharingan of your own. What seems to work best is to simply be strong enough to be able to completely overpower the sharingan user and everything they can throw at you. As we saw back during the chuunin exam when Sasuke fought Rock Lee and as Gai has mentioned it doesn't matter if the sharingan can see through all your moves, if the person using it can't keep up with your speed then you can beat them with just taijutsu. If your ninjutsu is simply more powerful than a sharingan users ninjutsu then you can defeat their ninjutsu, if you are strong enough or versatile enough to simply break out of their genjutsu or are simply immune to it then you can win. We've seen Sasuke get his ass handed to him enough times to prove that, most notably at the Kage summit and by Killer Bee. It also seems to be the case with Hashirama and Madara where regardless of Madara having sharingan, MS, EMS or the Kyuubi. Hashirama is simply stronger than he is. As Sasuke said the sharingan is just a tool and like any tool it is only as powerful as the person using it, same could be said for Naruto's shadow clones. Really it raises a good question. Do you think Madara with Hashirama's cells which give him the use of Mokuton and Rinnegan would be stronger than Hashirama if he had a sharingan, MS, EMS and Rinnegan?

Anyway there has been a lot of inconsistencies with the sharingan and shadow clones and pretty much everything else in this manga but that is Naruto. Another thing to keep in mind is that we haven't seen that many sharingans, and as has been implied many times, other than the basic abilities the sharingan seems to bestow unique abilities upon some of its users. Sasuke, Itachi and Madara all seem to have the same abilities but we know form Itachi and Danzo that Shisui's sharingan and MS granted him different abilities and Obito's gave him and Kakashi different abilities as well. Then there is Izanagi and Izanami. So I just wouldn't underestimate the sharingan.

2/3 of this post is just talking about how the sharingan is so awesome it should be able to do anything, 1/4 is talking about how to counter the sharingan?
I mean, Madara/Hashirama should be able to create pocket dimensions and warp reality on a cosmic level right since they're so awesome as well right? Really the only 2 points you've made are that the sharingan can see movements no matter how fast, and the sharingan gives color to chakra.
You might be able to make a case for this first one, say if Kage Bunshin "pulled" the body of the caster away to create the bunshins. The 2nd one goes back to how Kage Bunshin equally divides the chakra and wouldn't allow the sharingan to detect.


When he first met Naruto again after the time skip he was able to see into the Kyuubi's pocket dimension inside Naruto and forcibly suppress the Kyuubi's chakra because of his eyes.
Speaking of, why the fuck doesn't Obito/Madara just do this to Naruto right now?

[darkshadow]

Speaking of, why the fuck doesn't Obito/Madara just do this to Naruto right now?

That was just some chakra leaking obviously, not uncaged and bonded with naruto kyuubi.

[Abdula]

I wonder if you are just being dense Tofu. You said you see no reason why it would be able to and my argument is that even though I can't think of any instance where it was explicitly stated that the sharingan can see through shadow clones, if it can do so many other things why do you think it wouldn't be able to see through shadow clones. Secondly, stop talking about the evenly divided chakra thing. That is why Neji couldn't distinguish naruto's shadow clones from his real body, Simply because of how the byakugan's penetrative sight works, manga (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-105-6/naruto/chapter-100.html) and anime (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091202192245/naruto/images/2/21/Chakra_Circulatory_System.JPG) versions respectively. The real strength of the byakugan is its nearly 360 field of vision and its telescopic sight. Sasuke in his fight with Deidara demonstrated that the sharingan's ocular abilities work differently. Thirdly, as I mentioned above, it has been remarked before that wood clones were superior to other clones in many different ways, beginning with the fact that unlike other clones, wood clones are made from actual living cells. Yet, as I linked to above, Madara said only his eyes were able to see through Hashirama's wood clones. Based on that statement it would not be a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones but were unable to see through Hashirama's wood clones yet Madara was able to.


2/3 of this post is just talking about how the sharingan is so awesome it should be able to do anything, 1/4 is talking about how to counter the sharingan?
I mean, Madara/Hashirama should be able to create pocket dimensions and warp reality on a cosmic level right since they're so awesome as well right?
Uh.........NO! Also the point of mentioning the different ways people have used to defeat the sharingan is that no one has said that simply using shadow clones would be effective against the sharingan and I would think something that simple would be mentioned.

Really the only 2 points you've made are that the sharingan can see movements no matter how fast, and the sharingan gives color to chakra.
You might be able to make a case for this first one, say if Kage Bunshin "pulled" the body of the caster away to create the bunshins.
Um, so if Naruto is standing in front of a sharingan user and he makes, say 5 clones, wouldn't the sharingan's ability to follow movements no matter how fast, give the user the ability to just track the original?

Speaking of, why the fuck doesn't Obito/Madara just do this to Naruto right now?
Yeah one of the first things Madara did when he was revived was try to summon the Kyuubi and it failed. Though I think Obito or Madara would be able to simply rip the kyuubi out of Naruto or the hachibi out of Bee if they were able to get their hands on them, which is why Raikage wanted them to stay hidden in the first place.

Simply put, I think it is reasonable to assume that the sharingan can detect shadow clones, particularly Madara's, and it is ok to continue doing so unless we are told otherwise. You seem to be of the mindset, that it cannot be done unless Kishimoto expressly states otherwise.

[Tofu #2]

Secondly, stop talking about the evenly divided chakra thing. That is why Neji couldn't distinguish naruto's shadow clones from his real body, Simply because of how the byakugan's penetrative sight works, The real strength of the byakugan is its nearly 360 field of vision and its telescopic sight. Sasuke in his fight with Deidara demonstrated that the sharingan's ocular abilities work differently.
In this exact same chapter, sasuke says the reason he was able to counter Deidara was because "my eyes give color to chakra" hence in the image you quoted, Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra. So what is so special about the sharingan that it can distinguish one body full of chakra from another?
The Sharingan's main abilities excluding MS have been shown to be of a "following" nature, whereas the Byakugan is more of a "insightful/penetrating" nature.
(Going of the previously made statement that the Byakugan was superior to the Sharingan, long before Sharinganigans) If the Byakugan can't tell the difference, how could the Sharingan?



Um, so if Naruto is standing in front of a sharingan user and he makes, say 5 clones, wouldn't the sharingan's ability to follow movements no matter how fast, give the user the ability to just track the original?
Um that's what I said? Though if the original body is being "divided" how exactly would you tell which one is original? On top of that, everytime we've seen the bunshin, a poof of smoke obscures the caster[/quote]


If you want examples, from Naruto Wiki, I'm not going to take this as concrete since there's no sources to the manga cited;

In the anime episode Brothers: Distance Among the Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha claims that the Sharingan can distinguish clones from the original. This contradicts the manga and other anime episodes.

Fuck, Kakashi couldn't even tell the difference between Zabuza and his water clone, and Itachi showed no evidence of distinguishing Kakashi's clones in both of their fights.
Now I think everyone will agree that this manga of full of inconsistencies and loopholes, the author just creates dues ex machinas whenever the fuck he wants, so you really shouldn't be looking into it too much.

[Abdula]

To be completely honest. I face palmed when I read your post, followed by getting angry at the fact that you are so obstinate that you cannot see the flaws in your own argument. My initial instinct was to call you a moron and just completely ridicule all your posts but I'll refrain. Instead

In this exact same chapter, sasuke says the reason he was able to counter Deidara was because "my eyes give color to chakra" hence in the image you quoted, Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra. So what is so special about the sharingan that it can distinguish one body full of chakra from another?
If you think about it for a minute or two then it may come to you. Also if you cannot tell the difference between this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-105-6/naruto/chapter-100.html) and this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-366-6/naruto/chapter-361.html) then I cannot help you.

The Sharingan's main abilities excluding MS have been shown to be of a "following" nature, whereas the Byakugan is more of a "insightful/penetrating" nature. Lol and here I thought the sharingan's main abilities as has been stated many times, including when it was first introduced here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-17-5/naruto/chapter-12.html), is that it gives you the ability to see through, read, copy and defeat all of your opponent's jutsus. The sharingan also has a penetrating eye or eye of insight, depending on which translation you wish to use and an eye of hynosis which gives then superior genjutsu,

(Going of the previously made statement that the Byakugan was superior to the Sharingan, long before Sharinganigans) If the Byakugan can't tell the difference, how could the Sharingan? When was this statement made and by whom? The only thing you can possibly be referring to is this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-83-13/naruto/chapter-78.html). That was an opinion and not a fact and it has been shown to not be true. This is really idiotic, if you are arguing so doggedly based on a supposition that you developed as a result of Kakashi giving his opinion on something nearly 550 chapters ago. Especially considering that since that time his opinion has clearly been proven wrong. For example on that same page it is suggested that the Uchiha clan evolved from the Hyuga clan which led to the popular theory that the sharingan was some evolved form of the byakugan which we know is wrong. See the sage of the six paths' powers being divided between his two sons. One, the Uchiha progenitor, getting his eyes and the other, the Senju progenitor, getting his body. Hell in that same chapter Neji demonstrates the byakugan's superior abilities of insight by deducing Hinata's mental and emotional state simply by observing her body language. Something most people do instinctively.

As to how the sharingan could possibly be able to do something the byakugan can't do, the answer is simple. The sharingan is not the byakugan. The byakugan does not give the user the ability to copy other jutsu nor does the sharingan give the user a nearly 360 field of vision. So to answer your question, A is not B.

Um that's what I said? Though if the original body is being "divided" how exactly would you tell which one is original? On top of that, everytime we've seen the bunshin, a poof of smoke obscures the caster The original body is not being divided, it is being copied, there is a huge difference. If you were to cut off the ears of one of Naruto's shadow clones, when the technique is released Naruto would not have any physical wounds on his body. Whereas if Naruto loses his ears all his subsequent clones would be earless. Hypothetical scenario and a very bad one at that but the point stands. Secondly we do not in fact see a poof of smoke every time a shadow clone is made and I do believe the smoke appears around the clone itself. Similar to the smoke we see when something is summoned.


If you want examples, from Naruto Wiki, I'm not going to take this as concrete since there's no sources to the manga cited;

In the anime episode Brothers: Distance Among the Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha claims that the Sharingan can distinguish clones from the original. This contradicts the manga and other anime episodes.

Yeah I am aware of that, which is why I didn't use it to simply put an end to this before and to clarify the statement isn't really contradictory since there is nothing in the manga then for it to contradict. It is simply something that was added to that episode that was not in the manga.

Fuck, Kakashi couldn't even tell the difference between Zabuza and his water clone, and Itachi showed no evidence of distinguishing Kakashi's clones in both of their fights.
Again, those are two very bad examples to use. Kakashi did afterall see through and copy Zabuza's first clone, it was his second clone that he was unable to counter. Despite that after being freed from the water prison Kakashi totally dominated that fight because of the sharingan and it was Haku who had to rescue Zabuza. In addition Kakashi has said many many times, including in that fight, that he cannot use the sharingan properly because of his low chakra capacity and the fact that he is not an Uchiha. If you remember, Kakashi passed out after that fight and was unable to move for a week. In fact every time Kakashi has used the sharingan for any significant amount of time he was incapacitated afterwards. After he and Naruto fought Deidara he had to be carried back to Konoha by Gai. He died when he fought Pain and was revived by Nagato and during the current battle he was nearly about to die again before Kurama gave him chakra. After the battle with Kakuzu he said simply using MS completely drains him. It should also be noted that during that fight with Zabuza he also said that the sharingan doesn't fall for the same technique twice.

The Itachi example is bad because in their second fight Itachi's objective was not to defeat them but to delay them as long as possible and his actions later would suggest that he intentionally threw that fight as well as others in order to protect the leaf. Also in their first fight both Kakashi and Itachi were able to detect each other's clones. Really Kakashi's first battle against both Zabuza and Itachi are two great examples of how sharingan users can dominate their opponents.

Now I think everyone will agree that this manga of full of inconsistencies and loopholes, the author just creates dues ex machinas whenever the fuck he wants, so you really shouldn't be looking into it too much. This isn't really about whether I am reading into it too much or not. It is not even about whether the sharingan can see through shadow clones or not. This is about you asserting that the sharingan cannot see through shadow clones and stating that there is no evidence that supports it can, nor can you see any reason why it would. When your entire argument is based on the fact that the byakugan can't and you believe the byakugan to be superior to the sharingan and that is just ridiculous. I am just upset that you cannot make a sound and convincing argument.

I'll just link this (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/10) for the hell of it.

[Uchiha Barles]

Has it even been shown that there exists an "original" Naruto when shadow clones are out? The best I can recall is Naruto summoning a bunch of clones to beat the living shit out of each other until only the "real" one was left. But assuming there is no "real" one, then it doesn't matter which clone was the last clone standing, it would be the actual Naruto.

[Abdula]

Yeah, there is always the real/original/true Naruto mixed in somewhere. In his fight with Zabuza he smothered Zabuza with shadow clones and used them as a distraction to cover the fact that he was transforming into a shuriken as is explained here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-20-6/naruto/chapter-15.html). In his fight with Neji during the chuunin exam Neji actually destroys Naruto's shadow clones and leaves him the last one standing or not more than once. In that same fight when Naruto uses a large number of shadow clones Neji ignores all of them and attempts to attack the real Naruto because doing so would dispel the jutsu. I can think of a few more examples. I'll just use the two examples I can think of at the moment that best answer your question. When Naruto and Kakashi were fighting Deidara and the kyuubi cloak came out and Naruto went two-tailed all his clones were destroyed, this also happened when he was developing the rasenshuriken. The best example I can think of now though was when Naruto and Sakura were having their training battle against Kakashi, Naruto used a shadow in midair in order to pull his real body out of the way of Kakashi's shuriken, here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-251-9/naruto/chapter-246.html).

[Uchiha Barles]

Yeah, I'm still not sure, through no fault of your own. None of those examples prove what I'm asking. The only think I can think of that would do that, is if someone someone got to attack the "real" naruto in such a way that it floored him immediately or otherwise made him unable to sustain the shadow clones, and they all disappeared. I don't think we've seen such a thing.

Like, the cloak example, assuming there is no real Naruto, any clone could draw up the kyubi's chakra, and then all the other clones would disappear. This leaves whatever clone that drew on the kyubi chakra to be the "real" Naruto. The Naruto and Sakura example doesn't really prove it either. Why let Kakashi kill a clone when it's no sweat off his back to avoid the attack completely now that he's created a clone? Similar reasoning puts the other examples on weak footing.

So yeah, the question more precisely formulated is: Assume Naruto creates a single clone on a field and there are now 2 Narutos. Is there a Naruto in this situation that should he be destroyed, Naruto himself would be dead? I'm not sure we have an answer to this yet.

[Y]

Naruto doesn't have to "sustain" the Kagebunshin. They exist independently of him. I'm not even sure if you killed him that the clone would dissipate automatically. That being said, Neji comments that he is searching for Naruto's "real body" while attacking the Kagebunshins during their fight, so clearly he believes that there is a Prime Naruto to be found and killed. Also, even if your theory were true, Naruto clearly does not behave as though it is (he has the clones work to defend Prime Naruto, and exploits the fact that he does so by disguising one of the clones as Prime Naruto during the Neji fight). This is an implication for a much different manga than a kids' battlin' coming to explore. Might I recommend the "Madrox" mini that Marvel published a few years back for this concept explored in a more mature context.

Also the Sharingan cannot differentiate between Kagebunshins and the true body, except insofar as Sasuke's insight could predict which body the clones were going to defend.

EDIT:

As was pointed out in IRC, you do in fact have to "sustain" the Kagebunshin; Kakashi comments that because he is weaker than Naruto he cannot keep the Kagebunshin up for long.

[viperwasp]

EDIT:

As was pointed out in IRC, you do in fact have to "sustain" the Kagebunshin; Kakashi comments that because he is weaker than Naruto he cannot keep the Kagebunshin up for long.

Yes that is right. Also when Naruto fought Neji in the exam. Neji was able to notice that the real Naruto always stayed back and he dashed past the clones to hit the real Naruto! Well Neji thought he did but instead Naruto purposely held back a clone to fool Neji.

However, Naruto seemed to purpose dispel his shadow clones to further trick Neji into thinking he hit the real Naruto. Thus it must be a known fact that Shadow clones fade away or die when the main user is really injured, knocked out or killed etc. If not Naruto would not have known to even try that. And Neji would have also have noticed to if clones started to fade away for no reason... instead of trying to attack Neji to protect the real naruto.

[MFauli]

"stfu you miserable cunt"

what nice reputation comments I get. Just saw that. lol

[viperwasp]

"stfu you miserable cunt"

what nice reputation comments I get. Just saw that. lol

Wait this site has reputation comments in the forums? Where can someone even see them? I can't seem to find them on anyones profile? And that was not nice for someone to call you that. lol

[TwisT]

You can't see others. They are anonymous and for the recipient only. You can see them by clicking "settings" at the very top of the page. Should list the last 20 or so +/- rep and comments if they left any.

[Abdula]

Damn it, this is getting annoying. I was going to post this last night but I was too preoccupied with Age of Empires. Love that game by the way, any fans here?

Anyway UB as both Y and Viperwasp pointed out, the ideal example you require is exactly what Neji did during the chuunin exam except that Naruto was able to anticipate his strategy. Which was a beautiful thing, the pretimeskip stuff was much more emotionally compelling than what came later. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLp4UuVTd7o#t=13m30s), I'll just link the youtube video to make it simple.

The only technique we've seen so far in Naruto that functions anything like what you're thinking of, in that it splits the users body into separate entities that can operate independently of each other, is Mu's fission technique seen here (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/558/5) and as Kabuto mentions here (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/558/6) Mu's technique is not cloning at all.

I have no idea why you guys seem to think the shadow clone technique is so special or that Naruto in effect creates a bunch of other Narutos. I guess the fact that they are called clones is kind of misleading and the many sketchy translations haven't helped but Naruto does not in fact split himself into different bodies or anything of the sort.

Regular clone techniques work by creating a copy made out of chakra that merely looks and acts like the user but has no physical substance, this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-68-6/naruto/chapter-63.html) is how Sasuke saw them during the chuunin exam. Other more advanced clone techniques use some other substance to give the clones physical form be it water, clay, sand or whatever. Shadow clones differ from other clone techniques in that shadow clones don't use any other substance to give the clones physical mass but instead use just chakra. The very reason Neji was unable to differentiate Naruto's real body from his shadow clones is because the clones have the same amount of chakra as the user and are made from no other substance. That is an issue specific to the byakugan.

Shadow clones themselves don't seem to have much physical mass and are destroyed once they take any significant amount of damage as we have seen many many times and as Naruto says here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-67-7/naruto/chapter-62.html). Though Naruto's clones made with Kurama's chakra seem to be stronger than his other clones which makes sense I guess. In the beginning of Naruto's rasenshuriken training Kakashi said that the shadow clone technique was developed for reconnaissance purposes and unlike other clone techniques whatever knowledge and experience the clone gains goes back to the user once the technique is released. Pretty much so that what happened to Jiraiya or what happened to Hayate when he was caught spying by Kabuto and Baki during the chuunin exam wouldn't happen.

Also the Sharingan cannot differentiate between Kagebunshins and the true body, except insofar as Sasuke's insight could predict which body the clones were going to defend.
I want to respond to this before I continue. I have no idea what you are referring to. If you are referring to Naruto vs Sasuke in the valley of end then you're very confused. First of all Sasuke defeating a bunch of Naruto's clones in the beginning of that battle was anime only, it was not in the manga at all. Secondly Sasuke gaining the sharingan's abilities to predict movements didn't happen until he got the third tomoe which didn't happen until near the very end of that battle. So I have no idea what you are referring to. The only other example I can think of is when Naruto tried to bum rush Sasuke with a bunch of shadow clones in their first battle on top of the hospital and Sasuke destroyed them with a giant fireball.

You guys keep insisting that the sharingan cannot detect shadow clones but seem to have absolutely no reason why you believe it other than that you believe it. The main point that has been made to support that argument is that Neji's byakugan could not and as I said that is ridiculous. I feel like I walked into a convention for ultra-fundamentalist christians. This is simply whether you believe it is more likely than not based on the points that have been made, you know basic preponderance of evidence. Smh does no one remember this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-10/naruto/chapter-142.html) I really wonder if no one can see any of the points I am making or if I need to simplify them more. I wonder if Tofu has figured this one out yet for example
In this exact same chapter, sasuke says the reason he was able to counter Deidara was because "my eyes give color to chakra" hence in the image you quoted, Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra. So what is so special about the sharingan that it can distinguish one body full of chakra from another? Pardon me for ridiculing your post even more but you said Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra when a shadow by virtue of being made completely out of chakra would be completely full of chakra and since the shadow clone uses half of the original's chakra the original would of course not be completely full of chakra. It is your own logic, besides would not the sharingan's ability to " give color to chakra" logically allow it to distinguish a real body from one made completely out of chakra?

Anyway instead of reiterating any of the points I have made in my posts or worse yet looking for more evidence. I will just ask that you read my posts and if there is something in the manga that contradicts what I have said, just point it out.


"stfu you miserable cunt"

what nice reputation comments I get. Just saw that. lol
Yeah there is a thread for that here (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/15869-Goofiest-rep-comments). It probably also has something to do with what has been said in this (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/22475-Should-MFauli-be-banned) thread.

[darkshadow]

Pardon me for ridiculing your post even more but you said Sasuke is only able to see those bugs because they're completely full of chakra when a shadow by virtue of being made completely out of chakra would be completely full of chakra and since the shadow clone uses half of the original's chakra the original would of course not be completely full of chakra. It is your own logic, besides would not the sharingan's ability to " give color to chakra" logically allow it to distinguish a real body from one made completely out of chakra?


I'm not going to say you made a stupid post, but this specifically is one stupid fucking argument; kage bunshin splits chakra evenly, the user can not decide how much chakra he puts into a clone.
If naruto wants to make 999 clones, it means all clones and the original will only have 1/1000th of the full chakra. This obviously means that the 1/1000th of chakra is the full chakra of each of them individually; sharingan isn't going to see one of them brimming with chakra and all the others just with a small speck of it in their toes.

All of the chakra will be flowing through their entire bodies and sharingan will see them all as equal packets of chakra.

[SilentSnake]

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-265-9/naruto/chapter-260.html

It doesn't seem to me that the sharingan in itself can distinguish a kage bunshin from the real one (I mean "figuring out" which one is real doesn't really count since it's brains, not sharingan ;)).

If somebody can show some *real* manga evidence that would say otherwise, please do.

Just the chapter without a wall of text.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Clone_Technique

"In the anime episode Brothers: Distance Among the Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha claims that the Sharingan can distinguish clones from the original. This contradicts the manga and other anime episodes.[16]"

[Tofu #2]

LOL this thread still going


If you think about it for a minute or two then it may come to you. Also if you cannot tell the difference between this and this then I cannot help you.

IMO these are just literary devies to help the viewer visualize what is happening.
--------


The Sharingan's main abilities excluding MS have been shown to be of a "following" natureLol and here I thought the sharingan's main abilities as has been stated many times, including when it was first introduced here, is that it gives you the ability to see through, read, copy and defeat all of your opponent's jutsus. The sharingan also has a penetrating eye or eye of insight, depending on which translation you wish to use and an eye of hynosis which gives then superior genjutsu,

So, how do you see through, read, copy and defeat all of your opponent's jutsus? Perhaps by following the movements?

------------
Sure, the byakugan comparison was weak, then again your argument is based on an assumption because the sharingan has done so many kewl things.


It just makes it hard to believe that such a powerful eye technique wouldn't be able to see through a B-ranked skill that most konoha ninjas seem to know that requires one simple seal

my argument is that even though I can't think of any instance where it was explicitly stated that the sharingan can see through shadow clones, if it can do so many other things why do you think it wouldn't be able to see through shadow clones.
Shouldn't the rinnegan, the god eye, the father of the sharingan, be able to see through clones? Or even at least henge? I'm quite aware this traces back to your a!=b argument, but I'm just going based on "your own logic"
-----------------

Yet, as I linked to above, Madara said only his eyes were able to see through Hashirama's wood clones. Based on that statement it would not be a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones but were unable to see through Hashirama's wood clones yet Madara was able to.
No I'd rather take it as a statement that either Madara has unique eyes, or Madara's trained his eyes to see through his long time rival's technique, since there are other character's that have equally ranked eyes.
--------------------

Also the point of mentioning the different ways people have used to defeat the sharingan is that no one has said that simply using shadow clones would be effective against the sharingan and I would think something that simple would be mentioned.
Meh, http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/11
----------------

Kakashi did afterall see through and copy Zabuza's first clone, it was his second clone that he was unable to counter.

It should also be noted that during that fight with Zabuza he also said that the sharingan doesn't fall for the same technique twice.

---------


Kakashi has said many many times, including in that fight, that he cannot use the sharingan properly because of his low chakra capacity and the fact that he is not an Uchiha.
Well what does properly mean? We've seen Kakashi use his Sharingan to the same extent everyone else has, the only difference being the drain in energy. Of course, I have no idea why you brought this up, and it would make more sense if Kakashi couldn't use the Sharingan properly and couldn't see through Zabuza's water clone.
-----------

The Itachi example is bad because in their second fight Itachi's objective was not to defeat them but to delay them as long as possible and his actions later would suggest that he intentionally threw that fight as well as others in order to protect the leaf.
You're right, he was trying to delay them, wouldn't it make more sense to cast the genjutsu on the real body so the fight can be delayed longer?
----
As for looking for more evidence, here you go
http://i26.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/naruto-3724985.jpg
http://i21.mangapanda.com/naruto/598/naruto-3540647.jpg
http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/360/naruto-1569086.jpg

[Abdula]

*Sigh* This thread is going to give me a headache. I don't understand what it is you guys don't understand. I was just not going to bother but there is no chapter this week and that is why we're here after all so once more unto the breach or perhaps down the rabbit hole would be better.

I'm not going to say you made a stupid post, but this specifically is one stupid fucking argument; kage bunshin splits chakra evenly, the user can not decide how much chakra he puts into a clone.
If naruto wants to make 999 clones, it means all clones and the original will only have 1/1000th of the full chakra. This obviously means that the 1/1000th of chakra is the full chakra of each of them individually; sharingan isn't going to see one of them brimming with chakra and all the others just with a small speck of it in their toes.

All of the chakra will be flowing through their entire bodies and sharingan will see them all as equal packets of chakra.
This is kind of disappointing or maybe I am just misunderstanding something either way bare with me. I am not sure how to word this. The reason why Naruto and only is suppossedly able use shadow clones as he does is because of the kyuubi. Chakra equals mental/spiritua energy plus stamina/physical energy. Jiraiya explained that Naruto's seal by design allows the kyuubi's chakra to mix with his and this not only increases Naruto's own chakra but Naruto is able to convert that chakra to stamina or physical energy which is what is responsible for his accelerated healing. We've seen this happen many times, when Sasuke put a chidori through Naruto for example but it also happens whether Naruto is actively using the kyuubi's chakra or not. After Orochimaru used that 5 element seal on him for example even though he couldn't use the kyuubi's chakra until after Jiraiya removed the seal his healing ability still worked after his fight with Kiba. This is supposedly the same reason for Kisame's strength and why they called him the tailless beast. He had the ability to take his opponents chakra and convert it to stamina to heal himself and convert that stamina to his own chakra which as he said made him stronger the more he fought and thanks to Samehada he was able to further increase that ability.

This is important for a number of reasons. For one thing during his rasenshuriken training Kakshi mentioned that Naruto has at least twice as much chakra as he does and I tend to believe his opinion because he has seen Naruto in action many times and we know if anyone keeps track of chakra usage its Kakashi, plus he has a sharingan. He also mentioned that if Yamato was not there to suppress the kyuubi's chakra Naruto would have 100x more than he does. I think putting a rather exact figure to the amount of chakra Naruto has was a stupid move. Another point is that as you said Naruto cannot control the amount of chakra that goes into his clones if he makes 2 clones they each get a third of his chakra, if 999 they each get 1/1000th of his overall chakra. That in itself puts a limit on the number of clones Naruto is able to make. He said during his rasenshuriken training that because of the concentration and power required for elemental recomposition he was limited to using 200 clones max when trying to use wind chakra in the rasengan. When he was using sage mode he could only leave two clones behind with sage chakra and he could only use 3 clones in battle against Pain or perhaps it was the reverse of that, whichever. Another point, Jiraiya has been forcing Naruto to use more chakra than he normally could pretty much since he first met him, I think explaining the reason is unnecessary, he even went so far as loosening the seal on the kyuubi to increase Naruto's chakra capacity. There are a couple other points but this is already long and I am tired and the words just escape me at the moment.

Long story short it should not be possible for Naruto to make 999 clones. Given the amount of chakra he is said to have he should not be able to make that many clones. Anyone who only has 1/1000th of their overall chakra should die. Ebisu, Kisame, Kakashi, Hachibi, Jirobo, Shino and others have said that once the amount of chakra in your body gets too low you will die. Kisame even stated that he was the best in Akatsuki at bringing back targets alive because with Samehada he could absorb just enough of his target's chakra to incapacitate them without killing them. Hachibi said that if not for him constantly giving Bee chakra during his battle with Kisame, he would have died. Based on the way chakra works in this series, regardless of whether he has 100x more than Kakashi or not there is no way Naruto or anyone else should be able to function on less than 1% of their overall chakra. Much less do that 3 times in what Kakashi said was only a few hours, as he did during his rasenshuriken training and yet Naruto did this in chapter 1. The very reason the multiple shadow clone jutsu was forbidden in the first place was because if you make too many clones and thus reduce the amount of chakra you have in your body too much you die. It is the same thing Kakashi said to Sasuke when he taught him chidori. 2 was his limit and if he attempted another it would fail and he would die, Sasuke got around that by using the curse seal. I always assumed that one of two things happened. The Kyuubi was able to replenish Naruto's stamina thus keeping him alive and Naruto was able to convert that stamina to chakra. Or as we saw during the chuunin exam when he fought Neji. After Neji sealed Naruto's tenketsu stopping his chakra flow Naruto drew on the kyuubi's chakra instead. Neji did say that Naruto was lucky to be alive after that, because it should have killed him that is how the gentle fist works. Either way Naruto would not have so little chakra for long which is one of reasons I always found Naruto having the same amount of chakra as the clones weird. The other reason is how the clones themselves supposedly work. The clones should have a finite amount of chakra which naturally diminishes at a given rate, which would explain why Kakashi can't sustain clones for as long as Naruto can. and using jutsus even taijutsu should reduce that amount even more. The other thing is that as has been shown during Naruto's battle with Pain for example whatever chakra the clone has left over when the technique is dispelled or the clone destroyed goes back to the original. I would think either the byakugan or the sharingan since both have the ability to see chakra, would be able to see that and thus pick out the original. Similar to how Naruto because of his ability to sense chakra while in sage mode, was able to find Nagato. Just my admittedly convoluted thoughts.


Words I wonder why you bothered reposting things that were already mentioned in the thread? And yes even if the sharingan were the freaking eye of providence I don't think it would be of much use if they did not have brains. I don't think anyone would be able to do anything properly if they did not have brains, like posting for example:p. Just had to make that joke. Seriously your eyes would be pointless if your brain could not process and interpret the visual images it sees.

@Tofu. I am starting to enjoy these actually. Btw get an avatar.

LOL this thread still going
IMO these are just literary devies to help the viewer visualize what is happening.
Yep still going. Yeah ok just literary devices as opposed to just showing us what the hell is happening. no. Sasuke clearly looks at the bombs in his arm with the sharingan. Later he even admitted to Deidara that he was able to see the microscopic bombs that would have been otherwise invisible because of the sharingan's ability to see chakra.

So, how do you see through, read, copy and defeat all of your opponent's jutsus? Perhaps by following the movements? So are you saying that anyone whose eyes could follow high speed movements would be able to do the same thing? Gai for example. Why then did Orochimaru want the sharingan, so that he could learn every jutsu, when his eyes could already follow high speed movements. Seriously.

Sure, the byakugan comparison was weak, then again your argument is based on an assumption because the sharingan has done so many kewl things.No, my point is that the sharingan seems to be able to do whatever the user wants it to. I want to see everything, sure. I want to copy jutsu, sure. I want the ultimate genjutsu, sure. I want to see chakra, sure. I want to control bijuu, sure. Time space ninjutsu, sure. Unblockable flames, sure. Ultimate shield, sure. I want to alternate my own reality, Izanagi.

Shouldn't the rinnegan, the god eye, the father of the sharingan, be able to see through clones? Or even at least henge? I'm quite aware this traces back to your a!=b argument, but I'm just going based on "your own logic" Yes it should specifically because A is B in this case or are you forgetting that EMS turns into the rinnegan which creates such a huge plot hole. For one thing Madara seems able to use his sharingan abilities with the rinnegan, Susano'o for example, which makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that Nagato didn't seem to be able to when the abilities, including Nagato's, comes from the eye itself. The reason Kakashi can use Obito's kamui is because he has Obito's eyes, same for both Danzo and Itachi with Shisui's eyes. That being the case, why the hell didn't Nagato use any of Madara's abilities since he had his eyes? Why didn't he just use the sharingan's ability to suppress the Kyuubi's chakra as Sasuke did, or just take control of it like Obito did, or use Susano'o like Madara. The very reason Madara said he gave Nagato his eyes was because he is an Uzumaki who are distant relatives of the senju, so he would be able to use the rinnegan and summon the Gedo Mazo. Also the sage of the six paths was said to be able to do anything. He could literally turn what he imagined into reality, Nagato demonstrated part of that power when he was able to bring and entire village of people back to life. At this I wouln't be surprised if they said Rikudo could kill you by simply thinking of it. This whole thing just makes very little sense.

No I'd rather take it as a statement that either Madara has unique eyes, or Madara's trained his eyes to see through his long time rival's technique, since there are other character's that have equally ranked eyes. I think I must be missing something here because you just restated my point.

Well what does properly mean? We've seen Kakashi use his Sharingan to the same extent everyone else has, the only difference being the drain in energy. Of course, I have no idea why you brought this up, and it would make more sense if Kakashi couldn't use the Sharingan properly and couldn't see through Zabuza's water clone.No he really hasn't used it to the same extent as Itachi or Sasuke has for example. He can't even use Kamui the way Obito can and that is not simply because of his chakra levels. I brought it up because Kakashi keeps making a point of repeating it so there is something to it. It would make sense if he couldn't but he did. As Zabuza said Kakashi was able to see and copy his water clone technique despite the mist yet he didn't seem to be able to tell that the second clone was a clone at all. If the situation were reversed and he wasn't able to detect the first clone but did detect the second one then it would make sense but the opposite of that happened. Also in his fight with Itachi when Akatsuki first gets mentioned he was clearly able to tell the difference between Itachi and his shadow clones.

You're right, he was trying to delay them, wouldn't it make more sense to cast the genjutsu on the real body so the fight can be delayed longer?
I do believe I said I don't really consider anything that happened in that fight one way or the other. For one thing Kakashi commented right away that something was off about Itachi, particularly his fire ball technique. Secondly in that very same image Itachi compliments Kakashi on his skill for using the doton to conceal himself, I don't think he was referring to Kakashi jumping out of the ground and attempting to punch him.
I think you're doing a poor job of this I can actually make your argument for you, though it would be pretty ridiculous for me to argue both sides. For example I'm surprised no one has brought this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-372-14/naruto/chapter-367.html) up yet. Do you think Sasuke knew that was a clone, he should been able to tell but it appears he didn't.

I see you edited your post since I first read it. I was wondering why I thought a few things were missing. Oh and yes that is how the byakugan has been shown to work even when Ao uses it here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-22827-14/naruto/chapter-459.html) which is very different from even the basic sharingan. The byakugan lets you see the chakra circulation system in a body and the tenketsu which is what the Hyuuga developed the gentle fist style to attack and why the evenly distributed chakra is a problem for the byakugan. It was never mentioned as an issue the sharingan would have. Assertn mentioned this in his third post in this thread. I have no idea why it keeps getting mentioned.

Here is the thing about all of this that is really really annoying me. You guys keep insisting that the sharingan cannot distinguish a show clone from the original. You, Tofu, went so far as to say that there is no evidence to support that it can nor can you see any reason it would. My initial response to that and all of my subsequent posts have been to show that not only is there evidence that the sharingan can but based on its stated abilities and the many other things it has been able to do, logically it should be able to distinguish a shadow clone from the original. I do not recalling ever stating that it could just that it should be able to. Let me check my posts just to be sure.

Though I don't remember it explicitly being stated, there is evidence enough to believe that the sharingan would be able to see through shadow clones. Though, this is an old argument and I don't really want to get into it, not in that regard at least but oh well. There are many reasons why people think it would be able to see through shadow clones.
WORDS
So I just wouldn't underestimate the sharingan.


Simply put, I think it is reasonable to assume that the sharingan can detect shadow clones, particularly Madara's, and it is ok to continue doing so unless we are told otherwise. You seem to be of the mindset, that it cannot be done unless Kishimoto expressly states otherwise.

This isn't really about whether I am reading into it too much or not. It is not even about whether the sharingan can see through shadow clones or not. This is about you asserting that the sharingan cannot see through shadow clones and stating that there is no evidence that supports it can, nor can you see any reason why it would. When your entire argument is based on the fact that the byakugan can't and you believe the byakugan to be superior to the sharingan and that is just ridiculous. I am just upset that you cannot make a sound and convincing argument.


You guys keep insisting that the sharingan cannot detect shadow clones but seem to have absolutely no reason why you believe it other than that you believe it. The main point that has been made to support that argument is that Neji's byakugan could not and as I said that is ridiculous. I feel like I walked into a convention for ultra-fundamentalist christians. This is simply whether you believe it is more likely than not based on the points that have been made, you know basic preponderance of evidence.
Anyway instead of reiterating any of the points I have made in my posts or worse yet looking for more evidence. I will just ask that you read my posts and if there is something in the manga that contradicts what I have said, just point it out.
Why the hell do you guys just say it cannot. My point is that saying the sharingan cannot detect clones is kinda like saying ninjas cannot sense each other if anyone remembers that old argument. Based on what has been said about the sharingan, substitution jutsu should never work against it, right? I keep forgetting not to argue about Naruto. These things never go well.

[Splash!]

^ I am looking at this page right here:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/10

If that translation is to be trusted, Kakashi mentions Naruto being able to use Shadow clones as diversions against Madara and Tobi, but not being able to deliver the final blow (due to the decreased amount of chakra not being sufficient to do so). If the Sharingan could tell the difference between the real body and the shadow clone, why would he suggest that the diversion could work?

[Death BOO Z]

[...] Either way Naruto would not have so little chakra for long which is one of reasons I always found Naruto having the same amount of chakra as the clones weird. The other reason is how the clones themselves supposedly work. The clones should have a finite amount of chakra which naturally diminishes at a given rate, which would explain why Kakashi can't sustain clones for as long as Naruto can. and using jutsus even taijutsu should reduce that amount even more. The other thing is that as has been shown during Naruto's battle with Pain for example whatever chakra the clone has left over when the technique is dispelled or the clone destroyed goes back to the original. I would think either the byakugan or the sharingan since both have the ability to see chakra, would be able to see that and thus pick out the original. Similar to how Naruto because of his ability to sense chakra while in sage mode, was able to find Nagato. Just my admittedly convoluted thoughts.



Why the hell do you guys just say it cannot. My point is that saying the sharingan cannot detect clones is kinda like saying ninjas cannot sense each other if anyone remembers that old argument. Based on what has been said about the sharingan, substitution jutsu should never work against it, right? I keep forgetting not to argue about Naruto. These things never go well.

a possible argument is that clones aren't given chackra but are allocated.
every naruto version draws chackra from the same source (which isn't physically present), and the clone chackra distribution is just stating the clone A can draw up 1/100 of the chackra, while clone B is rationed 1/10 and C is allowed to gather 1/2 of the chackra. and when a clone "dies", the reserved chackra pool is freed up for the original to use.
there still has to be some "outgoing " messages from the clones (containing information), but that doesn't mean it should be physically transferred to the original.

I.E even the post office has a mailing address. all chackra (even in the original body) is connected with an dualist source (a chackra server) that it sends feedback to. like communication via satellite.

[SilentSnake]

text

I posted the link to Kakashi/Itachi to refresh your memory since your comment simply disregarded what happened and screamed "just as Itachi planned".

Gladly Tofu #2 posted more panels (I was too lazy to look ^^) which, at least to me, seem pretty straightforward with the answer and prove you wrong.

[darkshadow]

a possible argument is that clones aren't given chackra but are allocated.
every naruto version draws chackra from the same source (which isn't physically present), and the clone chackra distribution is just stating the clone A can draw up 1/100 of the chackra, while clone B is rationed 1/10 and C is allowed to gather 1/2 of the chackra. and when a clone "dies", the reserved chackra pool is freed up for the original to use.
there still has to be some "outgoing " messages from the clones (containing information), but that doesn't mean it should be physically transferred to the original.

I.E even the post office has a mailing address. all chackra (even in the original body) is connected with an dualist source (a chackra server) that it sends feedback to. like communication via satellite.

...no, the amount of chakra is predetermined and if a clone disperses all its experience and chakra (if any left) gets reallocated to all other clones and the original; the more clones disappear the stronger/wiser all of the remaining become, kage bunshin is an even split at all times.

[Yukimura]

I think what DS claimed above is supported by the scene where Naruto was doing the leaf cutting training and one of his clones made a breakthrough and and then dispelled itself and instantly all of the clones learned the information that had been gained by the dispelled one and started using it in their own training.

In fact, I think its reasonable to assume that the chakra that is distributed back to the collective is the actual vehicle for the knowledge transfer in the first place. When you add together the fact that Kage Bunshin dispelling returns knowledge to the collective to the established fact that a piece of a person's chakra can contain all of that persons knowledge at the time the chakra was separated from them then it stands to reason that the reason the Kage Bunshin knowledge transfer works the way it does is because the chakra of the dispelled clone is returned to the collective and their knowledge is integrated.

[viperwasp]

Does anyone have an answer or something to why the 3rd Hokages shadow clones could survive being stabbed though multiple times? OR was that just in the Anime? I never saw the Manga that much from way back than.

But the 3rd clones survived an attack that would likely kill or mess up a full out powerful Ninja much less clones.

Now I understand throughout the series we have seen shadow clones die and or withstand different degrees of damage. Even Narutos clones have fluctuated in how much they can handle. Sometimes a bee sting can kill them and other times the side of a mountain impacting a clones face may not dispel the clone. I don't have any exact real examples but you know we have kind of seen it. But at least most clones seem to die at any form of real physical damage.

I chalk it up to the persons will power, mastery of the shadow clone jutsu, and there overall ability to manipulate chakra or jutsu etc. Still the 3rd had some fairly bad ass shadow clones. Part of me just wants to call foul here and say it was somewhat of a plot hole or just has no real answer. It's up to the average person to just invent a reason why.

Heck you could even make up that the 3rd was draining or sustaining his shadow clones with the enemy he was grasping onto. But personally I'm just going to call it the Will of Fire.

[Abdula]

I think what DS claimed above is supported by the scene where Naruto was doing the leaf cutting training and one of his clones made a breakthrough and and then dispelled itself and instantly all of the clones learned the information that had been gained by the dispelled one and started using it in their own training.

In fact, I think its reasonable to assume that the chakra that is distributed back to the collective is the actual vehicle for the knowledge transfer in the first place. When you add together the fact that Kage Bunshin dispelling returns knowledge to the collective to the established fact that a piece of a person's chakra can contain all of that persons knowledge at the time the chakra was separated from them then it stands to reason that the reason the Kage Bunshin knowledge transfer works the way it does is because the chakra of the dispelled clone is returned to the collective and their knowledge is integrated.
Hey Yuki. I had no idea you still roam these parts. I think this (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/519/10)scene lends even more credence to what DS said.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/552/6
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/555/2
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/555/11
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/10
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/11
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/6
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/14

Those however, and I can think of a few more, are contradictory and at the very least show that shadow clones are not an even split at all times. Naruto's shadow clones going sage mode by themselves, not to mention being able to create other shadow clones, completely contradicts what was said during his fight with Pain. If his shadow clones could make other shadow clones then why the hell didn't the clones he left at Myobokuzan simply make another clone and have that one gather natural energy when Naruto reverse summoned the first one. Why did Naruto have to make clones in sage mode in the first place.

Which is the point I was trying to make about the sharingan earlier. If in the next chapter Madara says he can see through shadow clones you just have to accept it. Much the same way we just had to accept Naruto all of a sudden gaining the ability to sense "evil" intentions out of nowhere when the plot required it. Deus ex machina is deus ex machina.

[darkshadow]

Nothing is being contradicted, nature chakra is seperate from his own, that's why he can have clones gather it for him.
The clones are also exact copies, any jutsu naruto can do they can do as well obviously, so them creating more clones isn't a contradiction and it can be assumed that it will split chakra only between themselves since it's being recast as a "new" user.

All clones naruto makes in sage mode will also be in sage mode, meaning if one of the clones he left behind would to split itself, it would effectively half the nature chakra it had gathered, giving naruto only 1 shot of a rasenshuriken if dispersed instead of 2.
Also the clones were completely immobile and could only focus the nature chakra, even when reversed summoned they didn't move at all; naruto clearly stated that the 2 clones focussing nature was his max, 1 more and they'd lose focus.
That's also why he only had 3 clones to fight pain, 4 fighting clones would also disrupt the focus.

[Tofu #2]

Yep still going. Yeah ok just literary devices as opposed to just showing us what the hell is happening. no. Sasuke clearly looks at the bombs in his arm with the sharingan. Later he even admitted to Deidara that he was able to see the microscopic bombs that would have been otherwise invisible because of the sharingan's ability to see chakra.
No I'm not talking about the chakra visualization, I'm talking I don't think the Sharingan can see through veins.


So are you saying that anyone whose eyes could follow high speed movements would be able to do the same thing? Gai for example. Why then did Orochimaru want the sharingan, so that he could learn every jutsu, when his eyes could already follow high speed movements. Seriously.
Seems like you're taking what I said completely literally, since this is no longer relevant, I'm going to disregard.



Yes it should specifically because A is B in this case or are you forgetting that EMS turns into the rinnegan which creates such a huge plot hole.
I think it's safe to say that without a doubt, the rinnegan cannot see chakra, cannot see through shadow clones, and cannot see through henge.


I think I must be missing something here because you just restated my point.[/quote
[quote]Madara said only his eyes were able to see through Hashirama's wood clones. Based on that statement it would not be a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones but were unable to see through Hashirama's wood clones yet Madara was able to.
If ONLY Madara can see through wood clones, (read: Madara, NOT the Sharingan, though it is because of the Sharingan) then it is indeed a spectacular leap of logic to infer that other people were able to see through other types of clones.


No he really hasn't used it to the same extent as Itachi or Sasuke has for example. He can't even use Kamui the way Obito can and that is not simply because of his chakra levels. I brought it up because Kakashi keeps making a point of repeating it so there is something to it. It would make sense if he couldn't but he did.
Sure he can, he already warped the 8 tails, he's just starting to learn. Perhaps you can provide an example of something Itachi or Sasuke has done that exceeds Kakashi's limit, short of MS powers.


Also in his fight with Itachi when Akatsuki first gets mentioned he was clearly able to tell the difference between Itachi and his shadow clones.
Well there's already 2 Itachi's in that panel, it wouldn't be completely crazy to guess they were both clones.


I do believe I said I don't really consider anything that happened in that fight one way or the other. For one thing Kakashi commented right away that something was off about Itachi, particularly his fire ball technique. Secondly in that very same image Itachi compliments Kakashi on his skill for using the doton to conceal himself, I don't think he was referring to Kakashi jumping out of the ground and attempting to punch him.
It's not that hard to believe Itachi was actually trying in that fight. Putting Kakashi into a genjutsu that puts him to sleep would be leagues lower on a scale of "protecting Konoha" than using Tsukiyomi on him


I think you're doing a poor job of this I can actually make your argument for you, though it would be pretty ridiculous for me to argue both sides. For example I'm surprised no one has brought this (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-372-14/naruto/chapter-367.html) up yet. Do you think Sasuke knew that was a clone, he should been able to tell but it appears he didn't.
No I omitted this because you could easily argue Sasuke was surprised at Itachi acknowledging his strength


I see you edited your post since I first read it. I was wondering why I thought a few things were missing. Oh and yes that is how the byakugan has been shown to work even when Ao uses it here (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-22827-14/naruto/chapter-459.html) which is very different from even the basic sharingan. The byakugan lets you see the chakra circulation system in a body and the tenketsu which is what the Hyuuga developed the gentle fist style to attack and why the evenly distributed chakra is a problem for the byakugan. It was never mentioned as an issue the sharingan would have. Assertn mentioned this in his third post in this thread. I have no idea why it keeps getting mentioned.
You misunderstood what I said, I did not mention a single thing about chakra, but this goes back to comment #2 of this post.


Here is the thing about all of this that is really really annoying me. You guys keep insisting that the sharingan cannot distinguish a show clone from the original. You, Tofu, went so far as to say that there is no evidence to support that it can nor can you see any reason it would. My initial response to that and all of my subsequent posts have been to show that not only is there evidence that the sharingan can but based on its stated abilities and the many other things it has been able to do, logically it should be able to distinguish a shadow clone from the original. I do not recalling ever stating that it could just that it should be able to. Let me check my posts just to be sure.
Why the hell do you guys just say it cannot. My point is that saying the sharingan cannot detect clones is kinda like saying ninjas cannot sense each other if anyone remembers that old argument. Based on what has been said about the sharingan, substitution jutsu should never work against it, right? I keep forgetting not to argue about Naruto. These things never go well.
I'm just discrediting your evidence and providing evidence that it can't.

[EpyonNext]

Jesus Christ. China doesn't even have walls to match the text in this thread.