Naruto Shippuuden Episode 298

[Marik]

[HorribleSubs] Naruto Shippuuden 298: 1080p (magnet:?xt=urn:btih:050DB7F8EBA5914F19FB66C1F69A3 F0A7953025E&dn=%5bHorribleSubs%5d%20Naruto%20Shippuuden%20-%20298%20%5b1080p%5d.mkv&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.nyaatorrents.info%3a6544%2fann ounce) | 720p (magnet:?xt=urn:btih:46DA93EB08B0C723F6AF26C0D6A42 60F27C8A261&dn=%5bHorribleSubs%5d%20Naruto%20Shippuuden%20-%20298%20%5b720p%5d.mkv&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.nyaatorrents.info%3a6544%2fann ounce) | 480p (magnet:?xt=urn:btih:C24664E216096BE1E7166571F2901 6597CDEB672&dn=%5bHorribleSubs%5d%20Naruto%20Shippuuden%20-%20298%20%5b480p%5d.mkv&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.nyaatorrents.info%3a6544%2fann ounce)

[Harima Kenji]

Great fight so far. Itachi never seizes to amaze me. Seems like Naruto is in deep shit, though..

[Kraco]

Seems like Naruto is in deep shit, though..

He's always in deep shit due to his lack of brains.

But yeah, Itachi kicks ass, as always.

[Killa-Eyez]

Awesome stuff. I was curious to know what that crow was all about. Didn't expect this.

So Nagato used his Allmighty Push on Amaterasu, huh? It's funny how everyone just throws their techniques around. Makes them seem ordinairy and powerless like Naruto's Sharingan.

Can't wait to see what else Itachi's got in store for us.

[DarthEnderX]

FUCKING AMAZING!!


Couple of nagging questions I had got answered in this episode.

First being that I was originally annoyed that Shisui's eyes had a unique power without being Mangekyou. Turns out Shisui DID have the Mangekyou. Also weird that he's apparently not dead. If Shisui is alive, how did Itachi get his Mangekyou?

Second was "Can Nagato use all his Rinnegan powers without having a bunch of Pains?" Apparently, the answer is yes, cause he used at least 4 of them in this episode.

The last question obviously was "What was the deal with that crow?" and the answer was more awesome than I ever could have imagined. Itachi put a Mangekyou inside Naruto to brainwash his own brother if he ever used his eyes on Naruto? And instead it ends up doing something even more awesome, accidentally making Itachi a real character in this series again, hopefully.


The question I have now is, can Kabuto simply release Itachi now that he's no longer under his control, or is Itachi free to just do whatever he wants now?

So now, Naruto is in possession of an awesome Mangekyou eye that can't do anything for 10 years. Obviously, he needs to give that shit to Kakashi so he can get himself an EMS and stop going blind!

I do feel like it's a slight plot hole that both of Shisui's eyes do the exact same thing. Every other Mangekyou user has had different powers in each eye.

So Pain absorbs a bunch of Tailed Beast chakra and it fixes his body. Why didn't he do that back when he was still alive? He had access to tons of Jinchuuriki.

[Kraco]

The question I have now is, can Kabuto simply release Itachi now that he's no longer under his control, or is Itachi free to just do whatever he wants now?

I sure hope he can't. Not because I'd be a fan of any resurrected characters (though Itachi is a close call), but because so far the bloody resurrection haxor technique has shown too few flaws compared to the benefits. It'd be about the time for Kabuto to start looking behind his shoulder. Since he's an Oro copycat, he should be just as afraid and envious of sharingan as Oro was.

[frog hermit]

So now, Naruto is in possession of an awesome Mangekyou eye that can't do anything for 10 years
i am not understanding this 10 year thing. i thought the crow was used to free itachi. and now that power/crow/eye is gone. or are you saying the eye is freed up now and can go to whoever basically. but whats this 10 year thing?

[DarthEnderX]

Shisui's Mangekyou power (Kotoamatsukami) is only usable once every 10 years unless the user also has the 1st Hokage's cells(which lowers the reuse time to, like, a day).

This was stated before by Danzou. And now restated by Itachi.

I was just saying how, since the Mangekyou power is unusable for the next 10 years, fixing Kakashi's eyesight is the best use that eye has now. Unless you're going to give it to someone who has the 1st's Cells, like Yamato.


On a completely unrelated note, Shusui's Mangekyou is the first one they've shown that's 4 sided instead of 3.


Since he's an Oro copycat, he should be just as afraid and envious of sharingan as Oro was.I'm guessing that for whatever reason, zombie eyes are no good for transplanting. Otherwise Kabuto would have just taken Zombie Itachi's eyes.


The thing I'm hoping happens now that Itachi is free is, if he doesn't have to sacrifice himself to defeat Nagato, then I want him to come into contact with Sasuke, and tell him what an R-tard he is.

[Killa-Eyez]

The thing I'm hoping happens now that Itachi is free is, if he doesn't have to sacrifice himself to defeat Nagato, then I want him to come into contact with Sasuke, and tell him what an R-tard he is.

Lol. Than Sasuke would be like "whatever man, you're dead anyway".


I'm guessing that for whatever reason, zombie eyes are no good for transplanting. Otherwise Kabuto would have just taken Zombie Itachi's eyes.

I wonder if that eye would work on a living person, being Edo Tensei-fied. I'm guessing the eye would work assuming living and resurrected bodyparts go together and as long as he keeps the jutsu active. It'd prolly take up alot of chakra though and when it runs out, he'd have sacrificed his own for naught.

[DB_Hunter]

Itachi would make a bad ass Hokage

[DarthEnderX]

Well sure. Having an immortal Hokage probably has all sorts of advantages.

[Buffalobiian]

Well sure. Having an immortal Hokage probably has all sorts of advantages.

Heh. I'm sure he meant having someone who cares so much about the village and who actually has the insight and planning ability to back up their raw power into making it happen.

[DarthEnderX]

So Nagato used his Allmighty Push on Amaterasu, huh? It's funny how everyone just throws their techniques around. Makes them seem ordinairy and powerless like Naruto's Sharingan.Nagato always used Almighty Push constantly. Like, every 5 seconds.

[DB_Hunter]

I mean the non-Zombie version of Itachi. He had tremendous skill, wisdom and the ability to give everything for his convictions. If he had lived on I'm sure he would have eclipsed Madara for all his accomplishments, or at least be an equal.

[DarthEnderX]

All true, but the one thing he seems to be missing is leadership qualities.

And I kind of call the wisdom part into question. Yeah, he has a lot of tricky plots going, but the goal of those plots was to get Sasuke to grow up a certain way, and due to the overly complicated and duplicitous nature of those plots, he's managed to achieve the exact opposite of what he intended.

[Killa-Eyez]

Nagato always used Almighty Push constantly. Like, every 5 seconds.

Yeah, awesome right? -_-

[DB_Hunter]

All true, but the one thing he seems to be missing is leadership qualities.

And I kind of call the wisdom part into question. Yeah, he has a lot of tricky plots going, but the goal of those plots was to get Sasuke to grow up a certain way, and due to the overly complicated and duplicitous nature of those plots, he's managed to achieve the exact opposite of what he intended.

Fair point. I would say it is something he could overcome and develop from though. Itachi from a young age was made to do things and live a life that was not only incredibly difficult emotionally but twisted. He was what, same age as Naruto and co are now perhapse a year or two older, when he had to slaughter his entire clan? How many people his age have had to do something like that yet not lose their mind? He was shunted in to the world of Anbu, grew up during a ninja war, endure the attack of the Kyuubi and then became an S-Rank criminal on the orders of the village hierarchy; he never got time to stablise himself and think in a stress free environment and despite all this he never showed even a fraction of the emo tendencies every other character that age has show.

Yes that's the ninja world and Madara and his brother spent their entire lives in constant battle, but it was still within the social norms of their particular clan. I mean in terms of horror only Sasuke actually could say comes close, having seen your parents slaughtered by your older brother and then mocked by him. But then he has become totally screwed up.

And you could make a similar argument about Sandaime with Orochimaru; yet no one would be better than him to be Hokage when he was around and when Tobirama died first and then Minato.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, he has a lot of tricky plots going, but the goal of those plots was to get Sasuke to grow up a certain way, and due to the overly complicated and duplicitous nature of those plots, he's managed to achieve the exact opposite of what he intended.

Thanks to a guy called Madara, that is. Otherwise, he did pretty damn well all these years I'd say.

And he even put the crow in as a safeguard for when his plan does fail. He used the eye on himself this episode, but I don't think anybody can really plan on coming back from the dead.

As for leadership, I'm not sure how that could have turned out. The Uchiha were dead on taking over the village, so it's no wonder they dislike a Hokage-serving ANBU like Itachi. I would say that due to his skill and intelligence he would have been revered as a Hokage (much like Kakashi would have been), even if he wasn't as charismatic as Naruto.

[DarthEnderX]

Thanks to a guy called Madara, that is. Otherwise, he did pretty damn well all these years I'd say.I don't.

If Itachi's end goal was to have Sasuke live a happy fulfilled life as a respected member of the Hidden Leaf, then Phase 1 of his plan: Instill into him a lifelong all-consuming hatred, was a retarded way to start.

I realize the thinking behind it was "I'll take all of Sasuke's hatred onto myself so he doesn't have to hate anyone else." But the problem with taking an 8-year old and making vengeance his entire existence is that, once he's obtained that vengeance, he doesn't know how to be anything else.

Itachi said it himself. "Sasuke is still naive. He can easily be died any color." Maybe if he hadn't spent so much time trying to manipulate and deceive his brother into turning out the way he wanted, his little brother wouldn't have been so easy for Madara to manipulate.

And his final fail-safe measure is "I'll just fucking mind control him into being the way I want." which doesn't even end up getting used on the right person.

[Buffalobiian]

Itachi said it himself. "Sasuke is still naive. He can easily be died any color." Maybe if he hadn't spent so much time trying to manipulate and deceive his brother into turning out the way he wanted, his little brother wouldn't have been so easy for Madara to manipulate.

But how else could he have done it?

You don't exactly tell an 8-year-old that:

1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha but don't hate me, because
2) The Hokage ordered it to be done since we're all rebellious as shit.

The original fail-proof plan was to kill everybody including Sasuke. If Itachi failed at something, it was that he failed to kill his brother, leaving a seed of hatred to grow into a national threat. (said threat wasn't forseen because no one should have known about it)

Judging from Itachi's reactions this episode, Madara was lying when he said Itachi didn't carry out the task alone. Itachi was carrying out the task alone, which was why he didn't expect Madara to know anything about him. (He even safeguarded against that by having Sasuke launch Amaterasu at Madara when Madara tried to do something to him. In the end, we never found out how Madara escaped death from that)

[DarthEnderX]

1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha but don't hate me, because
2) The Hokage ordered it to be done since we're all rebellious as shit.Why not?

Or better yet, just leave out the part where the Hokage ordered it. Tell him you volunteered for the mission because you feel the village is more important than any single clan.

Then at least Sasuke MIGHT decide to hate Itachi still, or he might just hate the Uchiha clan, who are dead, so who gives a fuck. And if Sasuke still decides to hunt you down, you let him. You tell him you understand why he's doing it, and you don't hate him for it.


In the end, we never found out how Madara escaped death from thatI just assumed he used his phasing power to phase through the flames. Or teleport them away.


But how else could he have done it?

You don't exactly tell an 8-year-old that:

1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha but don't hate me, because
2) The Hokage ordered it to be done since we're all rebellious as shit.Why not?

How is that any more damaging than telling him: 1) Yes, I killed every Uchiha because MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Or better yet, just leave out the part where the Hokage ordered it. Tell him you volunteered for the mission because you feel the village is more important than any single clan. And while you're at it, explain to him why your life experiences and how your friendship with Shisui Uchiha causes you to feel that yet.

Then at least Sasuke MIGHT decide to hate Itachi still, or he might just hate the Uchiha clan, who are dead, so who gives a fuck. And if Sasuke still decides to hunt you down, you let him. You tell him you understand why he's doing it, and you don't hate him for it.

It's called treating him like a person you actually care about, instead of like a puppet, and then being surprised when someone else shoves their hand up his ass.

[Buffalobiian]

Why not?

Because you don't tell your young brother about top secret ANBU missions, especially when it involves dirty work.

Even if he understands, do you think an 8yo can keep his mouth shut when others are badmouthing Itachi about how he's a murdering lunatic and other shit?

[DarthEnderX]

Because you don't tell your young brother about top secret ANBU missions, especially when it involves dirty work. Isn't that basically one of the major themes of the entire series though is how all the secrecy and duplicity of the ninja world is responsible for pretty much every terrible thing that's ever happened in the series?

Take Gaara for example. He spent years as a psychopathic mass murderer because those who cared for him thought it was good for the village to deceive him.

In fact, I'd say it's probably THE most central theme of Naruto as a whole. That the way ninja society operates doesn't fucking work. It turns endless stream of child soldiers into non-functional monsters. Every horrible villain in the series has some tragic backstory that happened because somebody was trying to protect their village's interests.

And the only reason any of our villainous characters are ever redeemed is through contact with Naruto, who's the only character in the series that goes, "You know what, this ninja shit is fucked up, I'm going to try treating these people as human beings instead of weapons".


Anyway, my original point was that I don't consider Itachi to be a particularly "wise" character. And that's because he acts in a way that is in keeping with the way the ninja world is run. And the ninja world, which is, for all intents and purposes, a government built ENTIRELY of spies and assassins, is the exact opposite of what I would consider to be "wisdom".

[Kraco]

Itachi's wisdom ended at the point he decided it's wise to slaughter his own clan when someone not from his clan told him to do it. There's simply no excuse whatsoever for that. He turned against his own people. How he handled the lone survivor, Sasuke, is inconsequential after that fell deed. It hardly matters what he told or didn't tell Sasuke, the boy's mental health was ruined anyway; it's just semantics to ponder how exactly it was ruined.

[DarthEnderX]

Itachi's wisdom ended at the point he decided it's wise to slaughter his own clan when someone not from his clan told him to do it. There's simply no excuse whatsoever for that. He turned against his own people.He's supposed to take their side just because they're his clan?

So if, say, your family is planning to blow up a dam that's would flood an entire city and kill everyone in it, the wise thing to do would still be to side with your own family?

Congratulations! You're the reason people think racial profiling works!



when someone not from his clan told him to do it.You know, something just occurred to me reading this...

So we know Danzou had Shisui's eye, and we know exactly what it does now...can we be sure Itachi actually did choose to follow his orders and slaughter his clan? Maybe Danzou made him do it with Shisui's eye.

This has no bearing on what we were just talking about, it's just something I happened to realize.

[DB_Hunter]

Itachi may not have dealt with Sasuke in the best way but he wasn't dealing with a normal situation. Plus how old was he himself? It was the old wrinkled leadership of Konoha that took the decision and then left Itachi to deal with the fallout, which is no easy task and not fair either.

Itachi was young and his intentions were always good, he was thrust in a situation where no other ninja in the whole world has been and was expected to make the right choices at a young age. That's too much expectation and I don't think it should colour his overall character.

[Buffalobiian]

So we know Danzou had Shisui's eye, and we know exactly what it does now...can we be sure Itachi actually did choose to follow his orders and slaughter his clan? Maybe Danzou made him do it with Shisui's eye.

Did Danzo know about this? Itachi was Hokage's ANBU, not one who followed Danzo/Root. Danzo would have had to know about this plan if he was to hypnotise Itachi into doing it. (Can't remember if Danzo revealed that he knew about the plan all along or not)

As for Kraco's point.. I don't think he actually meant to side with the Uchihas, but to let other people kill your clan instead of killing it yourself. (edit: guess not. See next post)

As for the "ninja world is screwed up" scenario.. Naruto is talking about dispelling the hatred and taking it all upon himself. If Sandaime was to use that ideal, the had the option of:

1) Tell the Uchihas to suck up their hatred and be buds.
2) Let the Uchiha attack his village, then tell his village to suck up their hatred and be buds.

I doubt plan 1 would have worked given how pissed those guys were, and plan 2 means you have to fight anyway. Given that the Uchihas were pretty damn elite in their own right, that would mean casualties galore.

A pre-emptive strike was what Sandaime ordered.. and Itachi was the best person to execute it.

Thinking back about the whole "dispelling hatred" thing.. Itachi was pretty close to doing that. The perfect way would have been to kill everybody, leaving the village and making sure Itachi's own hatred born from being made to kill his own brother ended with himself.

Instead, he let his brother live. He egged Sasuke's hatred on.. but since no one would be left to avenge him (Itachi), the chain of hatred should have stopped there.

[Kraco]

He's supposed to take their side just because they're his clan?

So if, say, your family is planning to blow up a dam that's would flood an entire city and kill everyone in it, the wise thing to do would still be to side with your own family?

Congratulations! You're the reason people think racial profiling works!

Yes, thank you for the congratulations, you are welcome.

You also should be presented with a cell in the same hell I apparently belong to if you believe people pre-emptively performing a genocide are any better than people who were just maybe possibly perhaps planning to do something drastic. So, yeah, I do think Itachi should have taken his own clan's side - by trying his utmost to prevent the conflict (if he was a man of peace and hoping his little bro gets a jolly childhood) and if that failed, then openly fight in the ranks of Uchiha against the rest of Konoha (assuming the rest of Konoha were as radical as Hokage and had taken part in the civil war). He could have, for example, brought it all to light. That would have surely heightened the tensions but it would have also forced everybody to deal with the situation, violently or peacefully, but most importantly: openly.

So, yeah, I do genuinely believe you should defend your family and clan, no matter the situation, but defending them doesn't need to mean the worst possible alternative available. That might get you branded a traitor by some people on both sides, but in the end that personal sacrifice could have helped many more, again on both sides.

[Buffalobiian]

So, yeah, I do genuinely believe you should defend your family and clan, no matter the situation, but defending them doesn't need to mean the worst possible alternative available.

Put it this way: neither side is backing down. Calling out the Uchiha means their defeat because the Hokage would flatten them.

Not calling out would mean the village's defeat because the element of surprise turns the tables.

Open civil war could result in more casualties because you'll have to kill off the entire Uchiha clan anyway, while the village loses their warriors too. Such an unstable internal power struggle would also invite external invasion from enemy nations.

[Kraco]

It can't be helped. Everybody has an equal right to live. If you aren't ready to get your own blood spilled, don't be eager to have others' blood spilled. However, I'm just talking about this from the perspective of Itachi's theoretical other choices, instead of the poor one he made. You can't seriously claim that massacring the entire clan was the best and only choice. It's no proper answer at all, it's just an easy way out chosen by a coward.

Naturo has been fighting against those easy, cowardly ways throughout the story, in his own foolish way. Like DE said earlier.

[DB_Hunter]

One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly. His values meant that he held the stability and prosperity of his nation higher than that of his clan, as he viewed the leadership of Konoha to be on the whole reasonable. The Uchiha clan on the other hand seemed to be acting out of pride more than anything, as any issues should otherwise have been brought to the negotiating table. The fact is they were planning a coup, something which Itachi's father confirmed in his dying breaths when he said he admired Itachi for being firm in his choice.

[DarthEnderX]

Did Danzo know about this? Itachi was Hokage's ANBU, not one who followed Danzo/Root. Danzo would have had to know about this plan if he was to hypnotise Itachi into doing it. (Can't remember if Danzo revealed that he knew about the plan all along or not)I was pretty sure that when Madara told Sasuke about it he gave the impression that all of the Konoha Elders were responsible for the decision. So the 3rd, Danzou, and those other two old people.


As for the "ninja world is screwed up" scenario.. Naruto is talking about dispelling the hatred and taking it all upon himself. If Sandaime was to use that ideal, the had the option of:

1) Tell the Uchihas to suck up their hatred and be buds.
2) Let the Uchiha attack his village, then tell his village to suck up their hatred and be buds.To be honest, it shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place.

The series gives the impression that the reason the Uchiha chose to rebel was because they were being treated like shit. And they were being treated like shit purely because of the actions of Madara. Which goes back to the whole "Ninja world is screwed up" because Konoha thought it would be a good idea to alienate the most powerful clan in the village because one of it's members was rogue.


if that failed, then openly fightAgain, ninja world.


One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly.Well, to be fair, he took them on from a position of trust...and most of them in their sleep.

[Kraco]

One young man taking on an elite clan by himself can hardly be called cowardly. His values meant that he held the stability and prosperity of his nation higher than that of his clan, as he viewed the leadership of Konoha to be on the whole reasonable. The Uchiha clan on the other hand seemed to be acting out of pride more than anything, as any issues should otherwise have been brought to the negotiating table. The fact is they were planning a coup, something which Itachi's father confirmed in his dying breaths when he said he admired Itachi for being firm in his choice.

Sure you can build stability and prosperity on a genocide, but where you do stop? Is the Hyuuga clan the next? They seem pretty dangerous. Or perhaps it's Nara? They are so intelligent they must be harbouring thoughts of being better than anyone else to lead the village. In fact the Konoha elders should get down to removing the feudal lords and their lineage since they clearly aren't up to ruling the whole country. Once you reject the idea of getting along with other people, you are walking down such a path.

And yes, it is cowardly. Because Hokage decided to remove Uchiha out of fear. He feared they were planning something and feared they might succeed. Besides, Konoha was stupid enough to elect Danzo as their leader. If that man qualified, any Uchiha would have as well.

[DarthEnderX]

I just think it's cool we're having such a deep conversation about Naruto.

I haven't done that in ages cause all you fuckers do it in the manga threads!

[DB_Hunter]

Sure you can build stability and prosperity on a genocide, but where you do stop? Is the Hyuuga clan the next? They seem pretty dangerous. Or perhaps it's Nara? They are so intelligent they must be harbouring thoughts of being better than anyone else to lead the village. In fact the Konoha elders should get down to removing the feudal lords and their lineage since they clearly aren't up to ruling the whole country. Once you reject the idea of getting along with other people, you are walking down such a path.

And yes, it is cowardly. Because Hokage decided to remove Uchiha out of fear. He feared they were planning something and feared they might succeed. Besides, Konoha was stupid enough to elect Danzo as their leader. If that man qualified, any Uchiha would have as well.

I'm not saying Itachi did the right thing by obeying the leadership just because of who they are; that would be as bad as Itachi siding with the Uchiha just because of who they are. I'm assuming that the leadership did what it could to look at the Uchiha's problems and look to address them, not just massacre them based on suspicion alone. There may have been perceived slights ever since the foundation of Konoha between the Senju and the Uchiha but things seems to have been brought to a head by the attack of the Kyuubi which was controlled by an Uchiha. The Uchiha were isolated as a precaution it seems and they didn't like it. Was it the right thing to do? It can be seen akin to collectivised punishment or racial profiling which probably wound the Uchiha up.

I think the key to this lies in whether or not the Senju really did oppress the Uchiha from the start as claimed by Tobi and whether the Uchiha really were trouble makers from the start. If they did oppress them then perhaps the Uchiha were right to fight back in which case, Itachi shouldn't have just sided with the leadership. However if the Uchiha were to do a coup it should have been a targetted attack and not a random massacre of other ninjas from the Senju clan. If they were planning random massacres then Itachi may have sided with the leadership in order to implement a solution with the least amount of bloodshed, if he thought the leadership itself could still be salvaged and be made just whilst the Uchiha were beyond redemption and had become twisted.

You could say I guess the mistake in this was the way the leadership dealt with the post Kyuubi attack situation. It shouldn't have criminalised an entire clan even if one member was responsible for the attack.

[frog hermit]

I really enjoy reading DE "the ninja world is messed up" theory. it really does seem like the central underlying theme. and Naruto is the only one who can see differently, he will change the Ninja world.

Itachi killing his whole clan was not the best action to take. But he was a soldier acting on orders, patriotism and maybe some Japanese type of "honor system" we really don't understand as Americans but makes sense to Japanese people. We are talking about a culture of people that had Seppuku for the warrior class when failing at their task. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku -

What would Naruto have done in itachi's place? I don't think kill his whole clan would be an option.

[DarthEnderX]

You could say I guess the mistake in this was the way the leadership dealt with the post Kyuubi attack situation.I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

[Kraco]

Even if the Uchiha were oppressed, to a degree, after the Kyuubi attack, I still find it hard to believe that every single adult, after putting their children lovingly to sleep, congregated to discuss clandestine plans for the destruction of the world. What else would they have done but have meetings of some sort, considering they were purposefully separated from the rest of the village for something none of those present did? Of course they would meet up occasionally to, at the very least, think how they could change their situation. The rest of Konoha still considered them elites, so it's only natural they would like to have an equal chance to lead the village as well.

I guess in a paramilitary environment like a ninja village, any meetings could be seen mutinous by the leadership, but nevertheless, there can't be any other reason but witless fear or insane hatred to slaughter them all down to the very last baby. I hope the truth will be revealed to the whole village when this is all over. That ought to make an interesting scene.

[DB_Hunter]

I agree it does seem like collectivised punishment and that is wrong. The fault for this lies with the leadership of the village.

Should Itachi, as a soldier, have then rebelled against the command structure and leadership? Should he have sided with the Uchiha or as the situation was complicated simply sat this one out? Perhaps he should have.

[Kraco]

Should Itachi, as a soldier, have then rebelled against the command structure and leadership? Should he have sided with the Uchiha or as the situation was complicated simply sat this one out? Perhaps he should have.

Real history has never accepted "I was just following orders" as a very good excuse for crimes against humanity. Especially in a situation where there was no imminent threat to the person expected to fulfill the order. There was no such threat upon Itachi since the dude could leave the village just fine even after performing the task and becoming a scapegoat. So, he was free to do whatever he wanted, including hitting the road (to avoid punishment by the leadership) or defending his own family and clan, one way or another.

It's quite ironic the same people who ordered such an atrocity then have the audacity to preach about their precious Will of Fire.

[DB_Hunter]

I agree with the concept that when the leadership orders you to commit evil being a soldier and saying I follow the chain of command does not absolve you of blame. Also if you think about it, it was quite selfish of Itachi to murder every Uchiha man, woman and child but leave the one he loved alone. In the series this is shown as his love but in reality it was a flaw in his thinking; what made Sasuke's life more valuable than that of another Uchiha child?

On this basis I think you can say that Itachi should not have become Hokage as he has a proven track record of letting his personal interests override the mission at hand and also to execute immoral missions. But then this claim can also be leveled at Sandaime for letting Orochimaru go and also allowing the Uchiha massacre to go ahead.

I think we are actually reaching the limits of the manga's capability to establish values which should guide governance and a nation with this discussion. On a simplistic level the actions of both Sandaime and Itachi are shown as acts of love but if taken in the greater context they are decisions which had massive consequences.

[Buffalobiian]

First of all, I think we need to establish and agree on the assumption that the Uchihas were staging a coup. At least then we're all talking about whether or not Itachi picked the right side to protect.

And honestly, if a guy agreed to wipe out his entire clan on the premise that it's saving the rest of the village.. I'm pretty sure a guy as intelligent as Itachi would have made sure he wasn't acting on someone's guess.

I had totally forgotten about the whole Uchiha-being-isolated thing.. but it still doesn't make Itachi's decision any different. To him, both sides are villagers from Konoha. It's just a matter of picking the action that causes the least casualty (given that the killing of one side is unavoidable), then following that path.

[DB_Hunter]

But the issue here is that even if they were plotting a coup, was this justified? This would determine which side was 'right' in all this.

[Kraco]

(given that the killing of one side is unavoidable)

And what on Earth dictates that? This is exactly why I called it a coward's easy way out: Kill 'em all and you will never need to worry about anything again, in good and in bad - except that history books may call you a bloodthirsty monster and tyrant if you don't succeed perfectly with your scapegoat. Now it's pretty much up to Naruto and the very few others who know the truth to decide how it will all end. Will they have forged history books or will they face their past.

[DB_Hunter]

It would seem then in order to solve the Itachi/Sasuke question, the surviving elders of the Konoha leadership should be put in trial for suspected mass murder and then tried in court to establish the truth. What this doesn't mean however is that Sasuke goes emo and starts to kill everyone in Konoha as revenge, because it could well be that his brother is guilty in some capacity in all this.

[Kraco]

But then again, if we look at this from a totally different direction, maybe it's Naruto with his ideals of justice and friendship who should be kicked out of the village. In the end it is a ninja village. And ninja are shadowy assassins, spies, and thieves. If we consider Will of Fire nothing more than pretty words to raise battle morale, then it could be said Uchiha got what they deserved by getting surprised so off-guard. In the world of ninja only the most guileful, strong, skillful, resilient, and wicked triumph. If this is the truth, then this show surely has done poor job depicting it on screen through the main characters. It'd be hard to imagine Tenten suddenly slitting, say, Chouji's throat if suddenly ordered to. Or Lee cracking Hinata's skull after receiving an order to do it, without a question. So, I'd say there's some glaring disparity between how the Uchiha clan's case was handled and how the main generation is being raised.

[DarthEnderX]

First of all, I think we need to establish and agree on the assumption that the Uchihas were staging a coup.I'd say that's a perfectly fair assumption. Itachi was their man on the inside after all, I doubt he would have had them pull the trigger on the Uchiha if a coup wasn't imminent.

But of course, that's only an assumption we can make barring crazy ninja deception like someone intentionally framing the Uchiha somehow in order to get them wiped out etc, but it's pretty pointless to try and take those things into account.


And what on Earth dictates that? This is exactly why I called it a coward's easy way out: Kill 'em all and you will never need to worry about anything again, in good and in bad - except that history books may call you a bloodthirsty monster and tyrant if you don't succeed perfectly with your scapegoat.Well, again, it being the ninja world basically removes other options.

It's not like you can just banish the clan, because then they'll go join another village, which will give that village an advantage over you.


It would seem then in order to solve the Itachi/Sasuke question, the surviving elders of the Konoha leadership should be put in trial for suspected mass murder and then tried in court to establish the truth.You're assuming that "Mass murder for suspected treason" is even a crime to these people. It probably isn't.

Or that Naruto even HAS a court system. I've never seen one.

[Kraco]

It's not like you can just banish the clan, because then they'll go join another village, which will give that village an advantage over you.

No, it would give that other village a timebomb ready to explode at any moment. An advantageous clan wouldn't have been banished in the first place, would it?

[DarthEnderX]

No, it would give that other village a timebomb ready to explode at any moment. An advantageous clan wouldn't have been banished in the first place, would it?I think given how powerful the Uchiha's reputation was, any of the other villages would jump at the chance to recruit them.

But you're right, the Uchiha trying to found their own village(like Orochimaru did) is probably more likely.

[poopdeville]

Real history has never accepted "I was just following orders" as a very good excuse for crimes against humanity. Especially in a situation where there was no imminent threat to the person expected to fulfill the order. There was no such threat upon Itachi since the dude could leave the village just fine even after performing the task and becoming a scapegoat. So, he was free to do whatever he wanted, including hitting the road (to avoid punishment by the leadership) or defending his own family and clan, one way or another.

It's quite ironic the same people who ordered such an atrocity then have the audacity to preach about their precious Will of Fire.

Itachi never claimed to be "just following orders". He loved the village and realized the strategic necessity of destroying the Uchiha threat. So he did it, as ordered, instead of the other things you mentioned.

Itachi had the will of fire.

[Kraco]

How exactly are you protecting a village by massacring a sizable portion of it? My idea of the word "protect" (which the Will of Fire is full of) doesn't involve piles of innocent bystander corpses, children included.

Like I said much earlier, his wisdow ended right there, when he thought that order was a sound one. It's much worse he wasn't just following orders but in fact embraced the idea like a madman.

[DarthEnderX]

How exactly are you protecting a village by massacring a sizable portion of it?By preventing a larger, even more lethal conflict.

Remember, Itachi supposedly did what he did because he experience the "horrors of war" at a young age. To him, it was better to simply assassinate the Uchiha than to inflict the full-scale war their rebellion would have caused upon the village.

Again, I don't agree with that. It's more of that bullshit ninja world reasoning. I'm just saying that is Itachi's justification to himself.

[Buffalobiian]

Again, I don't agree with that. It's more of that bullshit ninja world reasoning.

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too. It's not just some doomed-to-fail BS. It more or less works.

[Kraco]

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too. It's not just some doomed-to-fail BS. It more or less works.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ever after WWII the success rate of ethnic cleansing has been quite miserable in real history. It wasn't so much monitored earlier, but is there any specific reason to believe it worked remarkably better pre-WWII? I think if a society is ready to rely on a method like that, it's quite rotten already and even if the massacre seemingly worked, there should be plenty of other problems remaining. Like how they treated Naruto. They were lucky in Konoha Naruto is such a brainless saint.

[Buffalobiian]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ever after WWII the success rate of ethnic cleansing has been quite miserable in real history. It wasn't so much monitored earlier, but is there any specific reason to believe it worked remarkably better pre-WWII? I think if a society is ready to rely on a method like that, it's quite rotten already and even if the massacre seemingly worked, there should be plenty of other problems remaining. Like how they treated Naruto. They were lucky in Konoha Naruto is such a brainless saint.

I'm not talking about mass genocide, but the idea that you pre-emptively destroy enemies before they can attack, after you're sure that they're going to launch an attack at you.

[Kraco]

I'm not talking about mass genocide, but the idea that you pre-emptively destroy enemies before they can attack, after you're sure that they're going to launch an attack at you.

Yeah, but the definition of the enemy makes all the difference. We aren't talking about wiping out an unquestionable terrorist training camp here, but a part of their own village with children and elderly in addition to the men and women of fighting age. Add to that the fact many of those men and women must have been honourable veterans of Konoha's past wars, definding the whole village against external threats.

Like I said in one of my posts, it could be said it makes all the difference it's a ninja village, that is, a village of assassins, so none living there, not even a ramen booth owner, should expect nothing but to get backstabbed at any moment by their own neighbour, but how does such a mentality show in the main character generation? It doesn't show at all! Except for emo-Sasuke... And Danzo's Root.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, but the definition of the enemy makes all the difference. We aren't talking about wiping out an unquestionable terrorist training camp here, but a part of their own village with children and elderly in addition to the men and women of fighting age. Add to that the fact many of those men and women must have been honourable veterans of Konoha's past wars, definding the whole village against external threats.

Those old folks and women were supportive of this (as far as Itachi/Konoha is concerned).. and leaving them around is the same as leaving seeds of hatred lying around. (women giving birth to new generation of vengeful Uchihas?)

Anyway, it's the thought and plans to overturn the village that counts. That's treason, war hero or not.

[Kraco]

Anyway, it's the thought and plans to overturn the village that counts. That's treason, war hero or not.

Really? So back in the States the Democrat presidential candidate is committing a treason everytime a Republican is in power and vice versa? Every man is entitled to dream of changes in the leadership. Even if they weren't segregated like Uchiha happened to be, but if they were, then all the more so. Considering what happened to them, I'd say Uchiha were miserably late in putting their plans into action.

[DarthEnderX]

Secret agents and task forces exist like that in our world too.Yes, and the places on Earth that have those of the kind that would wipe out portions of it's own population for fear of rebellion are generally considered some of the worst places on the planet.


It more or less works.If by "works" you mean "Keeps those in power, in power" then yes. If you mean "works" as in "creates a functioning society that is able to grow and develop"...not so much.


It's funny, but at the end of the day, the Naruto world is basically a lot like the world in Metal Gear Solid 4. It basically boils down to "What if the world was run by a bunch of Private Military Corporations." Because that's essentially what the ninja villages are.

[Buffalobiian]

Really? So back in the States the Democrat presidential candidate is committing a treason everytime a Republican is in power and vice versa? Every man is entitled to dream of changes in the leadership. Even if they weren't segregated like Uchiha happened to be, but if they were, then all the more so. Considering what happened to them, I'd say Uchiha were miserably late in putting their plans into action.

The Uchiha aren't running for Hokage. They're doing a coup. If the Republican started a coup ...

Hmm, actually.. treason might not be the right word. You have to sell out your country for an opposing one for it to be treason, don't you? Civil war doesn't count then.