Attack on Titan: Shingeki no Kyojin [Archive] - Page 6

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-07-2022, 01:33 PM

Ymir could have called him, and that's what Eren is implying here. It may not have been him specifically, but she cried for help and he was one subject who heard her.

The other interpretation is that memory transplant isn't necessarily an Attack Titan thing. It's just what Eren said to Zeke. It's probably a Founding Titan thing. Eren even commented here that he needed Zeke to take him through Grisha's memories in order to push Grisha the way he did.

The facts are that Eren is the Founding Titan. It has lots of manipulative abilities on Eldians in general, but only Royals - or those in contact with Royals - can tap into that power. Presumably it's by visiting the Ymir-dimension. Eren has always had both the Attack and the Founding titan since he ate Grisha.

Also, even though they call the place "paths" and whatnot with that tree branching out, thus far it seems to mostly represent the Eldians/titans. When Ymir got to her dimension, there was no tree of light. When her 3 daughters ate her body and became 3 titans, the tree materialized with 3 main branches from the trunk. As the montage played out, the tree got more branches. I'd say that's more symbolic of Ymir's "family tree" than any alternate-reality-type of path.

As the the Founding Titan, Eren could talk to all his subjects. They also were brought into the Ymir dimension as well in that final episode. It seems to encompass people from across the globe as there were Eldians with armbands shown.

The concept of "Royal" starts getting muddy IMO, since everybody who is a "Subject of Ymir" should be a descendant of Ymir - and thus a Royal. I still don't know what to make of that.

But as for my previous thought about what'd happen when normal people get spinal fluid - probably nothing useful. Otherwise the whole Honorary Eldian thing would collapse and you'd just use Marley Soldiers instead.

MFauli

Mon, 02-07-2022, 01:37 PM

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-07-2022, 02:19 PM

Fuck Kirito (lol, sorry).*looks around*

I don't think too many people are going to leap to the defense that Kirito is some amazing character.

kmkze04

Wed, 02-09-2022, 10:58 AM

Could the difference between royal and non-royal Eldians be that royals are direct descendants of Ymirs, while non-royals are Eldians who ate Ymirs flesh?

I can't think of any other meaningful difference. Like, maybe the king had children with various women, and he ordered all of them to eat Ymir's corpse, whether they were her own offspring or not.

From the looks of the family images only the daughters ate the flesh and the translation implies the continued... incestual cannibalism? The issue there is that those are daughters so barring some kind of Titan interbreeding, it couldn't exactly be kept in the family.
Unless maybe it's implying that someone would need to have the blood of all three daughters to be a "Royal" and the rest are branch family members. So Royal would only reappear a number of generations later. Or it could simply be you need to have a certain purity of blood and not have gone through too many outsiders.
Or maybe there's just an essence of Ymir that travels down one path, in which case her appearance and the "seed" situation basically mirroring Historia's has giant significance. Ymir herself may have just reappeared and is being given a chance to go a different way.

MFauli

Wed, 02-09-2022, 11:05 AM

So basically Historia has a real great broth-I mean, father.

;>

neflight86

Thu, 02-10-2022, 11:01 AM

Once again, Ishiyama has defied my expectation and offered up another genuinely interesting character flashback that recontextualizes all I think I know.

At first, I was baffled and disappointed that Ymir didn't simply kill all of her captors the instant she gained the titan powers- why wouldn't she? Oh well, I guess the storytelling can't be air tight all the time... But after a few days of reflection, I realized that it was in line with her character. A sad young girl who's only ever known enslavement and obedience, her natural inclination is to seek direction. After all, she was willing to take the blame for the missing pig in the first place simply because she had no gumption to fight back, or pity for her fellow slaves, or any number of other hesitations that herded her wounded into that tree.

As a real world anecdote, circus elephants are tied to stakes by a rope from a young age, where they learn that they cannot get free from it. In reality, a fully grown elephant could almost accidentally break that same rope with their girth alone, but they never try because the 'reality' of resistance's futility has been engrained upon them by the time they have the power to 'rebel'. Same principal at work here, but it took a much better storyteller than I to present it buried within an origin flashback.

And direction she got. At least some truth to both permutations of the story, and I expect there's still more to come. From these events, I expect that the royal blood line, specifically, are those who ate of Ymir's flesh, while the remaining offspring make up regular Eldians.

If Frits'z command was taken literally by Ymir, who had the power to change Eldian physiology when she possessed the founding titan, that would explain why titans eat people; they were told to eat of Ymir's flesh, and her descendant's flesh. They just happen to not be smart enough to tell them apart from other people.

If Angry Emo was a pokemon, Ayran would be its final evolution.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-13-2022, 04:05 PM

Episode 81

-------------------------

So Connie took Falco away... and will meet Levi along the way and choose to save him instead? That sounds like how it'd play out. From a story POV I can't see them "wasting" the Jaw titan on Connie's mum. It's also the perfect titan for Levi to be honest.

MFauli

Sun, 02-13-2022, 04:19 PM

Man, FUCK Annie :/ I really don't want a happy end for her nor ruining Eren's plans. Reminder that she murdered many good people. Trash bitch. Pls let her find a miserable end.

Connie running off with Falco is annoying. What's he thinking? Even if he succeeds, the whole world will be after his mother then. And what's he gonna tell her, "Mom, I sacrificed this little boy to save you. Btw. dad and everyone else is dead." I fully empathize with Connie in that the thought should cross his mind. But to actually do it, is ... ugh. Impulse control, Connie, impulse control!

Now, as for Eren's plan ... can we talk about how flawed it actually is? I see two major issue with it:

1.) Way too few of those big titans to destroy the whole planet in a reasonable time. These titans made the walls of some small territory. Every step forward widens the gap between the next titan. Eventually, you won't be able to see the next titan from the one you're standing next to.. Basically, the planet is vast. Now, if Eren just wants to have a world where the surviving non-Eldians are in permanent terror because they never know when one of the titans crosses their paths, that's an option I guess.

2.) If I were one of the leaders of any of the countries in the world and word got around that gian titans are unstoppably destroying everything ... I'd send my entire airship fleet towards Paradis. If not to save the world, just to pull them to hell with everyone else. What is Eren's plan against such a counterattack? If a massive airship fleet comes bombing Paradis, nothing can save his precious Eldians.

Oh well. We'll see. One thing I hope to see is Mikasa warming up to Eren again. They did a little of that with Jean telling them how Eren did everything for their sake. And that's true. Really, Zeke's plan to castrate an entire ethnicity just to give peace to a lot of assholes' minds ... how is that just? They could have taken precautions. They could have segregated all Eldians to Paradis and left them alone there where no titans can harm anyone in the world. And their technology was already letting them keep titans in check, surely with more technological progress, titans would lose all fear at all. So many alternatives. What Eren is doing is simply what happens when the Jews suddelny gain the power to fight back the nazis. When the Uighurs gain the power to fight back China. It is what happens when the oppressed minority suddenly obtains a power to turn the tables. And you cannot blame, you simply cannot.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-13-2022, 04:33 PM

1.) Way too few of those big titans to destroy the whole planet in a reasonable time. These titans made the walls of some small territory. Every step forward widens the gap between the next titan. Eventually, you won't be able to see the next titan from the one you're standing next to.. Basically, the planet is vast. Now, if Eren just wants to have a world where the surviving non-Eldians are in permanent terror because they never know when one of the titans crosses their paths, that's an option I guess.

It's not "divide and conquer", it's a stampede. Like a locust swarm.

2.) If I were one of the leaders of any of the countries in the world and word got around that gian titans are unstoppably destroying everything ... I'd send my entire airship fleet towards Paradis. If not to save the world, just to pull them to hell with everyone else. What is Eren's plan against such a counterattack? If a massive airship fleet comes bombing Paradis, nothing can save his precious Eldians.

The island still has soldiers. If you send troops to the enemy you need a supply line. As for saving Eldians, it's called bunkers.

As far as Eren is concerned, the world sending troops to his hometown doesn't change anything. The world wants Paradise Island dead anyway. He's going on a genocide mission to fuck them up. It the world nukes his home, that's an outcome that was going to happen if he turtled up anyway. The world is advancing on anti-titan weaponry as time goes by. The only defense is offense. So no, the nations launching attacks on Paradise Island in an "attack of mutual destruction" changes nothing.

Oh well. We'll see. One thing I hope to see is Mikasa warming up to Eren again. They did a little of that with Jean telling them how Eren did everything for their sake. And that's true. Really, Zeke's plan to castrate an entire ethnicity just to give peace to a lot of assholes' minds ... how is that just? They could have taken precautions. They could have segregated all Eldians to Paradis and left them alone there where no titans can harm anyone in the world. And their technology was already letting them keep titans in check, surely with more technological progress, titans would lose all fear at all. So many alternatives. What Eren is doing is simply what happens when the Jews suddelny gain the power to fight back the nazis. When the Uighurs gain the power to fight back China. It is what happens when the oppressed minority suddenly obtains a power to turn the tables. And you cannot blame, you simply cannot.

There is no blame. If the goal is to save Paradise Island, this is the way.

Zeke's castration plan isn't bad really. It's just about choosing which side wins. If you want Eldians to win then you kill everyone else. If you want everyone else to win then you kill Eldians. Zeke's castration plan is the most peaceful way to achieve the latter. Eren's massacre is the only way to achieve the former.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 02-13-2022, 08:02 PM

I feel like it sucks Eren doesn't have more control. Why CAN'T he just cure the Eldians of their titanism? And it's weird he can't make the titans spare the Eldian ghetto.

I feel like the only hope for a "happy" resolution, is if the tree entity is somehow killed or returned, and that just ends all titan power.

And then, with the threat of the titans gone, the rest of the world just...burns Marley to the ground.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-13-2022, 08:08 PM

I feel like it sucks Eren doesn't have more control. Why CAN'T he just cure the Eldians of their titanism?

He might not be able to undo the fundamental thing about Eldians.

And even if he could, the world may not believe him, or have confidence in him keeping his word.

"The only good Eldian is a dead Eldian." Titan fear runs deep.

MFauli

Mon, 02-14-2022, 02:47 AM

Killing the god parasite wouldn't really help, because you don't know how many more exist. For all we know, the world could be filled with those, just waiting to make contact.

neflight86

Mon, 02-14-2022, 09:04 AM

RIP Pixis. Tha Gabby action was fun, as was the finality of dealing with plain titans. They can be killed en mass now.

Connie taking Falco seems more like an 'end of the world' thing. He sees that things have become apocolyptic and is essentially 'abandoning' his post to follow his desire since everything is going to end soon, anyway.

So Connie took Falco away... and will meet Levi along the way and choose to save him instead? That sounds like how it'd play out. From a story POV I can't see them "wasting" the Jaw titan on Connie's mum. It's also the perfect titan for Levi to be honest.

This may come to pass, but I really think that the author might have bigger plans for Falco than to resurrect Levi- he is the anti-Aran of this story, in my eyes: someone who has gone through the same or worse but maintains their 'humanity' and isn't consumed by hatred.

Man, FUCK Annie :/ I really don't want a happy end for her nor ruining Eren's plans. Reminder that she murdered many good people. Trash bitch. Pls let her find a miserable end.

Way back when she was a threat, she spared Armin twice because he didn't seem to be a hinderance to her mission. She was following orders to reclaim the founding titan after deep undercover. Like Reiner said "we were just kids; we didn't know anything". She wielded enormous power to accomplish a goal during war time (to her). Is that murder, if those kills were to further her mission that her family's well being was riding on? She is responsible for those deaths, for sure, but were they premeditated and driven by hate? There is room for doubt.

1.) Way too few of those big titans to destroy the whole planet in a reasonable time. These titans made the walls of some small territory. Every step forward widens the gap between the next titan. Eventually, you won't be able to see the next titan from the one you're standing next to.. Basically, the planet is vast.

What is a reasonable time for genocide? If the tians seek out humans with infrared vision, like Rod Reiss did in season 3, they can hun them down effectively enough. Or, instead of walking away in circular pattern, they could form roving shoulder to shoulder columns like wiper blades and cover the surfaced area fairly efficiently.

It is what happens when the oppressed minority suddenly obtains a power to turn the tables. And you cannot blame, you simply cannot.

Then you agree that you/we cannot blame Marley for oppressing them previously? Am I understanding that right?

Zeke's castration plan isn't bad really. It's just about choosing which side wins. If you want Eldians to win then you kill everyone else. If you want everyone else to win then you kill Eldians. Zeke's castration plan is the most peaceful way to achieve the latter. Eren's massacre is the only way to achieve the former.

Well said.

I feel like it sucks Eren doesn't have more control. Why CAN'T he just cure the Eldians of their titanism? And it's weird he can't make the titans spare the Eldian ghetto.

My guess is that you can only exhert control over the titans made from your essense/dna/whatever. The mindless titans here were made from Zeke's spinal fluid wine, so I suspect only he can direct them, and he's nowhere to be seen right now. As for reverting their titan form, I think that may be another tragic reveal down the road; that there was a way to turn them back all this time.

Killing the god parasite wouldn't really help, because you don't know how many more exist. For all we know, the world could be filled with those, just waiting to make contact.

Now there's a spooky thought!

kmkze04

Mon, 02-14-2022, 10:37 AM

I'm very curious with Annie because not sure if she was conscious or completely suspended in her hardening shell. While everyone else kind of matured, progressed, developed their own self-awareness, etc., she could be coming back out the very same person that went in, skipping through time. Her motives and drives were never really established, nor was where she stands in that gray area between Marley and Paradis. Just like Attack and Zeke had hidden powers, she might end up having one. All that adds up to a huge wild card coming into play and a potential deus ex machina.

Or we could go all Ronin Warriors and have the remaining Titans decide to combine into some uber 6-Titan to face down Eren's 3.

And 10 bucks that's Eren's baby in Historia, that's who he's really trampling the world for. Her kind of spaced out look feels like trauma. Either she knew his plan but her nature opposes it, but she couldn't find a reason to sway Eren away from it. All it would take would be her speaking up in that case to get him to stop. Or she couldn't believe he'd sacrifice her either to get Zeke to fall into his trap and might be wanting to put an end to a rabid animal.

Lots of fun possibilities, really can't wait to see it unfold.

MFauli

Mon, 02-14-2022, 11:08 AM

neflight86

Mon, 02-14-2022, 11:43 AM

I'm doubtful because any... contact... between them would have given Ayerin the coordinate power access and this plan would likely have happened sooner.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-14-2022, 12:45 PM

I had previously considered Historia x Eren, but then discarded the idea for some reasons:

1) The whole Contact thing. The story wouldn't make that much sense if Eren had that much exposure to Ymir's World. Eren also explicitly said he wanted to keep Historia out of this and chose not to reveal this Royal connection thing.

2) While there's merit to passing on Royal blood, there's no merit in having Eren pass on his seed specifically.

3) On an emotional level, Eren's never loved Historia so that doesn't check out either.

The idea was fascinating because it put meaning behind Historia being randomly pregnant and taken out of the picture, but the reasons I was making up for it didn't seem to work. It's possible for it to be true, but I can't actually figure out a rational reason why it should have happened.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-14-2022, 07:18 PM

Killing the god parasite wouldn't really help, because you don't know how many more exist. For all we know, the world could be filled with those, just waiting to make contact.So? They've found one in the last several thousand years. If it would solve the current problem, it's not worth doing cause maybe the problem could come back in a few millennia?

"There's no point curing this disease, cause there's probably just gonna be another disease someday!" is a really weird attitude.

My guess is that you can only exhert control over the titans made from your essense/dna/whatever. The mindless titans here were made from Zeke's spinal fluid wine, so I suspect only he can direct them, and he's nowhere to be seen right now.But Eren is directing the wall titans. And he didn't make those.

MFauli

Tue, 02-15-2022, 07:20 AM

"There's no point curing this disease, cause there's probably just gonna be another disease someday!" is a really weird attitude.

Change "some day" to "any moment" and you'll understand.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 02-15-2022, 11:16 AM

But Eren is directing the wall titans. And he didn't make those.

The Founding Titan made those directly, and Eren is now controlling the Founding Titan, so that part checks out.

As for Zeke's titans that he turned due to his Royal Blood connection, who knows. As previously mentioned, the uniqueness of Royal Blood isn't clear cut.

MFauli

Tue, 02-15-2022, 11:51 AM

We don't even know if Eren's mind has the capacity to see what's going on in the real world anymore. He's within another dimension where just gave orders to the wall titans, and he himself turned into some creepy uber-titan.

MFauli

Sun, 02-20-2022, 04:15 PM

episode 82:

Can't say I like the current development. I don't like Annie, I don't like Gabi, I don't like the carrier titan, I don't like Levi. And all of them are being built up to play some big role in the coming episodes :/

If I got one wish, it'd be this: Have Mikasa realize that she never was under control and that she truly loves Eren. And then help him, no matter the circumstnaces. Be Eren's Eva Braun if need comes to be ;>

Btw. were the wall titans people, too, or did Ymir build them from nothing? I'm not sure I saw that.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-20-2022, 04:36 PM

Can't say I like the current development. I don't like Annie, I don't like Gabi, I don't like the carrier titan, I don't like Levi. And all of them are being built up to play some big role in the coming episodes :/

I like Annie. Gabi's now more likable than ever and she's had some good character development. I like Pieck. I like Levi. So is well.

The pace has slowed down and they're being all introspective, which makes me suggest that this series isn't going to finish soon like I thought it was going to. The aftermath looks like it'll take a while to resolve.

I think all titans were people. That has never been suggested otherwise. The wall titans are all just colossals in a way.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-21-2022, 12:38 AM

I like Annie. Gabi's now more likable than ever and she's had some good character development. I like Pieck. I like Levi. So is well.MF just hates anyone that's against Eren. Even though Eren's supporters are clearly terrible.

Gabi still sucks though.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-21-2022, 03:37 AM

Eren's supporters are radical and act like assholes, but Eren's overall direction is not wrong. He's just chosen a side to save and has the balls/insight to know that this would be the only way forward. I guess he also hates being oppressed so it's easy for him to stomp on everyone else if that's what he sees as just. Everyone else who thought Eren was "going too far" or was "making too much collateral damage" has nothing to say when they're reminded that the world were going to wipe them out.

Everyone else is hesitant, but ultimately aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the world.

Gabi's interesting but she's also an "Eren". Difference is that she's currently powerless. She no longer wants to flatten Paradise Island, but given Eren's ultimatum now, it'll be interesting to see how far she'll go to stop him.

Armin thinking about leveraging Gabi was something I hadn't considered. He's more level headed than we think even if he lashed out.
It wasn't a bad move though. Mikasa will have to think for herself this time.

I don't get why Annie's dad decided to get himself killed. His flashback of wanting to see his daughter come back alive does not explain it at all. He knows that an Eldian acting out of line doesn't make a Marley listen.

MFauli

Mon, 02-21-2022, 05:07 AM

Eren is Light. Doing questionable things for the right cause. Historians will call him a villain, but those who understand will applaud him.

I don't get why Annie's dad decided to get himself killed. His flashback of wanting to see his daughter come back alive does not explain it at all. He knows that an Eldian acting out of line doesn't make a Marley listen.

He thought his daughter was long dead, was my assumption. He didn't have anything to lose.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-21-2022, 01:39 PM

Eren is Light. Doing questionable things for the right cause.What a complete and utter misunderstanding of that character.

Light is basically Dexter. "I'm a psychopath who doesn't actually care about right and wrong. But if I only focus my psychopathy on so-called "bad" people, I'll get tons of support!"

Eren is probably slightly less bad, because he actually does think he's doing the right thing. But anyone who's willing to sacrifice as many good people as it takes to get all the bad people is not in the right.

MFauli

Mon, 02-21-2022, 02:26 PM

What a complete and utter misunderstanding of that character.

Right back at ya.

Saying Light didn't actually care about making the world a better place is showing your lack of understanding of his character. I'm not surprised, however, because most people fail to properly empathize with Light.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-21-2022, 05:45 PM

I'm confident you're wrong. Light only cared about himself. Murdering criminals was just a way for him to foster adulation and worship.

But, short of asking the author himself, there's no way to prove it.

MFauli

Sun, 02-27-2022, 05:00 PM

episode 83:

Fuck Annie and Reiner, "saving the world" my ass, they're murderous assholes and deserve death :/

And I reeeeeally hate how this is shaping up to make Eren the big, final villain. Ugh.

Pls, anime, surprise me and let Eren win.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-27-2022, 11:57 PM

Annie stuffing her face with pie was pretty enjoyable. Really going for the moe gap there.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-28-2022, 01:25 AM

Fuck Annie and Reiner, "saving the world" my ass, they're murderous assholes and deserve death :/

And I reeeeeally hate how this is shaping up to make Eren the big, final villain.Dude...he's going to muder millions of people. He's absolutely the villain now. And yes, Annie and Reiner ARE murderous assholes and deserve death. But so is Eren, times about a million. And stopping him absolutely qualifies as saving the world.

MFauli

Mon, 02-28-2022, 05:24 AM

Dude...he's going to muder millions of people. He's absolutely the villain now. And yes, Annie and Reiner ARE murderous assholes and deserve death. But so is Eren, times about a million. And stopping him absolutely qualifies as saving the world.

How is Eren a villain? There were 2 options:

- Eldians die
- everyone but Eldians dies

Protecting your people from being eradicated doesn't make you the villain when the other side could have just stopped attacking you.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 02-28-2022, 05:04 PM

There were 2 options:100% bullshit.

He has enormous power now. He has countless options. He's just convinced himself(and you, apparently) he only has 2.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 02-28-2022, 11:30 PM

I want to remind everyone that the Zeke option is still available.

But also, it doesn't solve the fundamental problem right now. Remember that Titans are powerful, and Marley was okay with keeping Paradise Island in check while it dominated elsewhere. There was always the risk of "Rumbling", but that hasn't happened for many 100 years by now. I don't know if top brass at Marley truly believe that that was still going to happen without provocation.

The reason Marley has launched some new offensives in the past few years is because Anti-titan tech was coming along and Marley's one military advantage was going to be lost, and fuck do some of those minorities hate Marley for what they've done in the past few decades - but not nearly as much as they hate Eldians.

So, Marley needs the Founding Titan in order to have full control over the titans and finalise their world dominance while Titans are still relevant.

The whole world-meeting that Eren crashed was rallying everyone together based on their hatred and fear, but Marley's original plan was to take the Founding Titan for its own gains.

Now, with that in mind, sterilizing everyone doesn't actually satisfy Marley. While Eldians will die out eventually and the world will not suffer, the remaining Eldians alive are still a "military threat/bomb" as is whoever holds the Founding Titan.

In summary, sterilizing Eldians will ensure this tragedy will not affect any future Eldians, but those alive are still very much going to suffer.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 03-01-2022, 12:05 AM

Can't Eren see the future with his powers? Then clearly he is going to win no matter what. Whatever that win entails is unknown, but his will will get done.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-01-2022, 12:19 AM

Can't Eren see the future with his powers?He can only see the memories of every Attack Titan user.

If he doesn't have a memory of winning, then he doesn't.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 03-01-2022, 01:05 AM

Since he is an Attack Titan user, then he has seen all his possible futures. It would be ridiculous for him to choose a path where he doesn't get what he wants. Naturally, there are limitations because of unchangeable circumstances, but he would've chosen the best future for his goals among what are available. In that sense, he is definitely going to win. What that win looks like remains to be seen, but he certainly chose it.

MFauli

Tue, 03-01-2022, 01:22 AM

Afaik the attack titan can see the future of all the future attack titan bearers. If Eren is the last one to bear the attack titan, he can't see farther than his present. Which leaves open whether he sees nothing because he fails or because he concludes that whole thing.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-01-2022, 02:00 AM

Since he is an Attack Titan user, then he has seen all his possible futures.I also think you're greatly overestimating the amount of control he has over what memories he sees. They just showed us with his trip with Zeke how hit-and-miss the process is. And there's absolutely zero indication that he can actually sift through possible futures like Dr. Strange.

It would be ridiculous for him to choose a path where he doesn't get what he wants.Unless there is no path where he wins.

If someone slips in and kills him while he's convening with the Coordinate or whatever, all he might know is "My memories stop here."

Afaik the attack titan can see the future of all the future attack titan bearers. If Eren is the last one to bear the attack titan, he can't see farther than his present. Which leaves open whether he sees nothing because he fails or because he concludes that whole thing.Agreed. We don't even know if he can see he can actually see his own future memories, or only those of other Attack Titans.

MFauli

Tue, 03-01-2022, 02:23 AM

Btw was it confirmed whether Mikasa's affection for Eren was all a lie only or not?

Buffalobiian

Tue, 03-01-2022, 02:51 AM

It was not confirmed.

neflight86

Tue, 03-01-2022, 04:37 PM

Connie got two good laughs this episode. The first from hygiene time with mommy titan, and the second as he finally dunked on Annie's gap-moe. You can tell he's not an only child. At first, I was afraid Armin's plan was to kill the titan and remove Connie's motive to feed Falco. I wouldn't count out the cruelty, but thankfully his self-sacrifice gambit got his point across instead (I forgot he was the colossal, lol).

It is funny that Annie remains the same s1 character, not aging, and has to look (even more) up to everyone else that has grown up as she speaks. Her role to play is unclear, and her alliance uneasy, at best.

For the record, them just 'finding' her eating pie is a giant, glaring coincidence, but it doesn't matter more than any other serendipity in AoT.

Eyrun is more or less genocidal now, and there have been no convincing arguments in support of his plan outside of a few people directly benefiting from it, so I suspect he still knows something else hidden from us that may change the game one more time. That's my hunch, or else he may have to kill the friends he's trying to protect to carry out his rumbling. How long after the wall titans reach shore until he takes the top of the leaderboard in human kills from Bertholt and Reiner?

MFauli

Tue, 03-01-2022, 04:50 PM

While I still disagree about Eren being a bad guy, I agree that there has to be one more twist.

Although I'm not even talking about a twist relating to Ymir or the bigger story, but more to what's going to happen. This is my hope more than my confident prediction, but I'd LOVE to see how Armin and Co. reach Eren, start fighting him, and even get close to finishing him off - when Mikasa at long las realizes that she was never under Eren's control and that she actually loves him for realz. We'll get a hilarious scene similar to Annie when she was exposed and weirdly blushing and all, this time with Mikasa "blooming" and even visually return to her more feminine look pre-timeskip. And then she'll defend Eren with all her might, because love trumps all.

As for overarching stroy twists, I can see 3 scenarios:

1.) Considering time travel shenanigans were introduced already, Eren might make his conscious travel back to his younger self and take over. Thus allowing him to do-over EVERYTHING. Basically playing a video game with a guide next to you. :>

2.) Eren finds out the hard way that Ymir wasn't the only god parasite-carrier and the world turns into a total war battlefield between different god parasite-carriers.

3.) Some other character finds the god parasite-source and intentionally gets one to be able to fight Ymir head on.

Or maybe the heroes fight Eren and the End.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 03-01-2022, 09:16 PM

At first, I was afraid Armin's plan was to kill the titan and remove Connie's motive to feed Falco. I wouldn't count out the cruelty, but thankfully his self-sacrifice gambit got his point across instead (I forgot he was the colossal, lol).

Me too. "That's an interesting and ballsy way to get to her neck" I thought.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 03-02-2022, 12:10 AM

Her role to play is unclear, and her alliance uneasy, at best.I assume her role is to turn into a giant lady and hit someone.

MFauli

Wed, 03-02-2022, 03:02 AM

I assume her role is to turn into a giant lady and hit someone.

Not joking or horny-posting: Watch Annie's role be having sex with the Attack titan. It has always been weird that there was a "female titan", like, how is that a special ability, lol?! Maybe Ymir created the female titan after herself, trying to establish a titan race of people. The goal of Ymir's could be to give birth to a race of pure titans that exist only as titans (with a full consciousness) as Eldians are all imperfect titans, sullied by the original king's blood.

The implications then would be that Eren truly becomes the big villain, because now he and Annie would be attempting to eradicate EVERYONE, non-Eldians and Eldians likewise, forsaking humans in favor of the future titan race.

DarthEnderX

Thu, 03-03-2022, 11:22 AM

Maybe Ymir created the female titan after herself, trying to establish a titan race of people.Did she "create" any of them with intention?

They were created from eating her corpse. You think she specifically assigned them powers?

MFauli

Thu, 03-03-2022, 12:07 PM

Did she "create" any of them with intention?

They were created from eating her corpse. You think she specifically assigned them powers?

And yet there's only ONE titan who's specifically "female". That's just odd to me and remarkable. And if that titan actually is supposed to have a special abilty, being able to bear "children" would be that.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 03-04-2022, 06:19 PM

None of the titans have dicks.

MFauli

Fri, 03-04-2022, 06:28 PM

None of the titans have dicks.

Come on.

MFauli

Sun, 03-06-2022, 04:26 PM

episode 9:

I'm only 4 minutes into the episode, but I had to pause to write this: I REALLY think you're wrong here, Hanji, wtf! "I'm sure none of them would choose to save Eldians if it meant to fight the whole world". Yeah, I'm pretty sure there'd be A LOT of people who would choose to do exactly that, including commander Erwin. The scouts are the ones that put their lives on the line to protect Eldians from titan attacks, yet you think they'd betray their people just like that?

Hanji is completely fucked up. I know you guys agree with her, but it makes no sense that an in-universe character in her position would be SO willing to betray her own people. That's what she's doing, betray them. "Genocide is wrong!" she shouts when it is exactly what she wants to do - just instead against the world, she intends to commit genocide against Eldians.

These characters are way to altruistic right now and I don't like it nor buy it. It feels forced, like the author wants to push a certain message here. Just last episode, Eren's friends were in a state of "it's wrong, it's fucked up, but he's doing it for us, so it's also right. Wah, I don't know!" and that is an understandable state of mind: Confusion. Self-doubt. Doubt. And now they're sitting in a room and listening to Hanji's rambling about giving their life to stop Eren from saving Eldians and further to condemn all Eldians to die.

I'm gonna continue watching now, but damn, that makes me angry. Ugh.

Edit:

Finished the episode. Nothing changed. For a moment Jean was showing some reason, but then he ended up supporting the plan anyway.

It really feels like the plot is over-dictated by the author at this point, with characters making decisions that make no sense.

Also LOL @Annie, your dad is already dead, eat shit, bitch.

Only good thing this episode: Mikasa still plans to talk with Eren, not just kill him. I hope he can talk some reason into his friends. "Why should the bullied give up their lives? So that the bullies are rewarded for all the bad they've done?", something like this, hopefully.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 03-06-2022, 08:02 PM

The point of this episode was that these guys started killing each other without talking to each other.

The most impactful bit came from Magath. He started off the episode debating history and righteousness with Jean. I wouldn't say he has the moral high ground, but he does have some world history to base his actions off.

Fast forward to Gabi's confessing that the Paradise Island Devils were all scapegoats for the rest of the world's Eldians so they can act as Good Eldians and deflect all hate towards them. Magath realised that this is something of his doing until this point - If not personally then systemically.

I think where you're wrong MFauli, is that you think that the Scouts killing titans without guilt is the same as scouts killing humans without guilt.

Levi being Levi while missing his bits is quite funny.

The woman in Jean's dream had quite dark hair. On first take I thought he wanted Mikasa's babies.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 03-06-2022, 10:47 PM

Henge's stew?! THAT'S your lore secret of the week?!

I REALLY think you're wrong here, Hanji, wtf! "I'm sure none of them would choose to save Eldians if it meant to fight the whole world". She's not talking about not fighting the whole world. She's talking about not MURDERING the whole world. Fighting implies only killing the people that fight back. Eren is going to kill EVERYONE. Even the other countries that hate Marley as much as him. Even his fellow Eldians on the mainland that have been living in concentration camps.

Henge is absolutely right. Nobody who's not a complete psychopath would support global genocide.

universe character in her position would be SO willing to betray her own people. That's what she's doing, betray them. "Genocide is wrong!" she shouts when it is exactly what she wants to do - just instead against the world, she intends to commit genocide against Eldians.No, it isn't. Because that's predicated on the notion that one side or the other HAS to be genocided, and that there are no other possible conclusions. And only a total dipshit believes that.

It really feels like the plot is over-dictated by the author at this point, with characters making decisions that make no sense.No, it just doesn't make sense to you. Because, as you constantly like to show us, you're pretty much morally bankrupt.

Only good thing this episode: Mikasa still plans to talk with Eren, not just kill him. I hope he can talk some reason into his friends. "Why should the bullied give up their lives? So that the bullies are rewarded for all the bad they've done?", something like this, hopefully.Lol, if that's what you're hoping for, you might as well just stop watching.

MFauli

Mon, 03-07-2022, 04:16 AM

Expected reply, Darth, but let me ask you this: If instead of killing the rest of the world (which you oppose so much as "wrong"), Eren had the ability to reverse the anti-Eldian plan (making it so that all non-Eldians can no longer procreate), would you be okay with that? You seem to make a difference between a "killing-genocide" and a "no more procreation-genocide". Murdering people is bad, but slowly having them go extinct is okay? Would it be okay then in reverse? That's what I'm very curious to hear from you.

For the record, I think your morality is quite broken, too.

The woman in Jean's dream had quite dark hair. On first take I thought he wanted Mikasa's babies.

I mean, who doesn't? ;>

Buffalobiian

Mon, 03-07-2022, 11:43 AM

Slowly having a race die out is okay.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 03-07-2022, 12:13 PM

Not okay. Still genocide.
1956

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-07-2022, 12:32 PM

You seem to make a difference between a "killing-genocide" and a "no more procreation-genocide". Murdering people is bad, but slowly having them go extinct is okay?Not even a little. Global genocide is like a 12-out-of-10 on the villainy scale. Global sterilization is like an 11. It's just slow genocide.

But, again, not the only option available to him. Eren has ALL of the power atm. His avenues for resolving this conflict are practically limitless.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 03-07-2022, 01:33 PM

@Darth - Just out of curiosity, if we use a more typical rating system of 1 to 10 with 10 being the maximum and put global genocide at 10, that would mean global sterilization is at 9 for you. What would be a 7 and 8 for you?

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-07-2022, 01:57 PM

What would be a 7 and 8 for you?I dunno...like, a less cartoonish number of murders?

It's kinda why I made it a 12. Cause, realistically, murder is a 10. So global genocide is just, like, a couple billion 10s.

MFauli

Mon, 03-07-2022, 02:10 PM

Not even a little. Global genocide is like a 12-out-of-10 on the villainy scale. Global sterilization is like an 11. It's just slow genocide.

But, again, not the only option available to him. Eren has ALL of the power atm. His avenues for resolving this conflict are practically limitless.

You keep saying this, so I'll ask you to be concrete here:

What are these "limitless avenues"/alternatives that Eren has access to that would not result in anybody's genocide AND would not be a huge gamble risking Eldians' lives? The latter is an important factor, because any failed alternative attempt to resolve things would result in Eldians' total annihilation, while the rest of the world, no matter what happens, would always be able to heal and continue.

I don't see all these countless obvious alternatives, so please, go full-fanfic for me.

neflight86

Mon, 03-07-2022, 02:25 PM

Add "campfire discussion" to scenes AoT has elevated to a new height within Anime.

Glad to see Jean's character growth from season 1 come back and support him when presented with an easy-way-out on a silver platter. It still made sense for him to lose it at Reiner now that all is known- if only to protect Annie.

Henge's stew?! THAT'S your lore secret of the week?!
Don't knock it till you try it, I guess. She even asked Jean "What about your seconds?" in the most awkward time possible, so you know its gotta be good!

episode 9:

I'm only 4 minutes into the episode, but I had to pause to write this: I REALLY think you're wrong here, Hanji, wtf! "I'm sure none of them would choose to save Eldians if it meant to fight the whole world". Yeah, I'm pretty sure there'd be A LOT of people who would choose to do exactly that, including commander Erwin. The scouts are the ones that put their lives on the line to protect Eldians from titan attacks, yet you think they'd betray their people just like that?

Most of them wanted to protect humanity in ignorance of what the scope of humanity was. That makes it more tragic. The common enemy (the Titans) unified the Paradise islanders and prevented the (messy) sustainment of geopolitical factions wherein the potential for war comes from in the first place. Had they known of the outside world, opinions (among the scouts) would have been divided at worst, but mostly against this genocide as they were decent people who value human life even if it is from another race, whatever that is.

These characters are way to altruistic right now and I don't like it nor buy it. It feels forced, like the author wants to push a certain message here. Just last episode, Eren's friends were in a state of "it's wrong, it's fucked up, but he's doing it for us, so it's also right. Wah, I don't know!" and that is an understandable state of mind: Confusion. Self-doubt. Doubt. And now they're sitting in a room and listening to Hanji's rambling about giving their life to stop Eren from saving Eldians and further to condemn all Eldians to die.

...

It really feels like the plot is over-dictated by the author at this point, with characters making decisions that make no sense.

...did ...did you just suggest the author wrote too much of the story? I'm joking; your wording gave me a chuckle. I think your real issue is that you think there is no room for peace or negotiation since things have gone this far.

They touched on that this episode when Yelena recounted the atrocities committed by everyone sitting around that fire, and how everyone came to terms with just how grey this entire conflict is. That they are willing to entertain talk and negotiation, even with those that hate them (like the Marleans at the campsite) is a result of the tragedies they have all suffered breeding empathy and at least some emotional maturity. The Owl said as much back in season three when he told Grisha that unless he loved someone within the walls that we would 'keep repeating the same mistakes again and again'. Vengeance begets vengeance. Like the deaths of Gabi's friends and then Sasha, you can trace it all back to acts of revenge stoking the flames of hate. It's a recurring theme of the show.

I think you yearn for black and white delineation of justification. That's not here. Attack on Titan's story outgrew that seasons ago.

The most impactful bit came from Magath. He started off the episode debating history and righteousness with Jean. I wouldn't say he has the moral high ground, but he does have some world history to base his actions off.

Fast forward to Gabi's confessing that the Paradise Island Devils were all scapegoats for the rest of the world's Eldians so they can act as Good Eldians and deflect all hate towards them. Magath realised that this is something of his doing until this point - If not personally then systemically.

That was a great scene and a fine cap-off to his spat with Jean earlier.

Its been foreshadowed for a while now, but Flock finally gets to be a mini-boss. I expect him to die next episode, and maybe a little flashback to flesh him out before (or during) him getting... fleshed out... He's been practically one note this whole season, so I'd like to see what makes the chief Jagerist tick.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-07-2022, 02:35 PM

What are these "limitless avenues"/alternatives that Eren has access to that would not result in anybody's genocide AND would not be a huge gamble risking Eldians' lives? The latter is an important factor, because any failed alternative attempt to resolve things would result in Eldians' total annihilationThat's fucking stupid, and is basically just an excuse to remove ALL other options from the table.

"Unless this is 100% guaranteed to work, you HAVE to murder EVERYONE else instead." That's a completely unreasonable and nonsensical restriction to put into place, and I'm not even going to entertain listing hypotheticals with that kind of bullshit handcuffing in place.

Basically, if it had been up to you, we would ALL be fucking dead from nuclear war by now. Because your entire justification is "Well, if there's even the slightest chance they might annihilate us, then it's too dangerous NOT to annihilate them! Don't explore any other options. The risk it too high."

...did ...did you just suggest the author wrote too much of the story? I'm joking; your wording gave me a chuckle. I think your real issue is that you think there is no room for peace or negotiation since things have gone this far.I think my biggest problem with the writing was the way Willy Tibur was able to unite the entire rest of the world against the Eldians with a single speech. Even though Marley is the ones that had been conquering them and dropping titans on all of them for centuries. Even though that was all Marley's doing, Tibur was somehow able to convince them that, "no, the people we keep imprisoned and basically use as missiles against you are the problem, and you should all help us to go their island and get us even MORE of the power we've been using against all of you".

And they all just agreed to that.

Like, realistically, Eren should just be able to smash Marley's military and government. Free his fellow Eldians, and then begin negotiations with the other countries, having just freed them all from Marley's oppression. Hell, the Japanese-ish country was ALREADY willing to ally with them.

But no. Everyone has to die instead. Every innocent man, woman and child on the planet that's not on the island with him. Fucking stupid.

MFauli

Mon, 03-07-2022, 03:32 PM

That's fucking stupid, and is basically just an excuse to remove ALL other options from the table.

"Unless this is 100% guaranteed to work, you HAVE to murder EVERYONE else instead." That's a completely unreasonable and nonsensical restriction to put into place, and I'm not even going to entertain listing hypotheticals with that kind of bullshit handcuffing in place.

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?! You make it sound like I'm the bad one here. I think your stance is vastly worse than mine.

Basically, if it had been up to you, we would ALL be fucking dead from nuclear war by now. Because your entire justification is "Well, if there's even the slightest chance they might annihilate us, then it's too dangerous NOT to annihilate them! Don't explore any other options. The risk it too high."

You want to bring in real life-politics now? Because I sure as hell AM in favor of fighting Russia with NATO forces. Yes, that would mean some nukes hitting targets in Europe, too, but Russia would be defeated once and for all and all this bs that Putin keeps doing finally ends. The alternative, that is unfortunately what's happening now, is that Ukraine is about to be eradicated from the map, the terrorist regime Putin will ultimately win, and once all of this is over, the situation will be as unstable and unpredictable as before the war started, except now Russia is even stronger. And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.

Similar, all the alternatives are worse for Eldians. Unless you finally provide some of your "limitless avenues".

I think you yearn for black and white delineation of justification. That's not here. Attack on Titan's story outgrew that seasons ago.

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not. The most we get is Jean's beating Reiner, but that ends with Jean also joining the rest. And tbh, within these shades of grey, everyone following the same goal is pretty black/white in itself.

neflight86

Mon, 03-07-2022, 05:21 PM

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not.

It's not wrong, per say, but none of these characters have a leg to stand on if they did, which is why they don't. It makes great sense. Who at this camp fire could say, with absolute moral superiority "The other side is completely bad, and we are justified in killing them"? Nobody because they all have blood on their hands. Gabi, early season 4 could do that (in her propagandized ignorance), but has since matured and even she knows things aren't as simple as "We can only prosper if the island devils survive".

Buffalobiian

Mon, 03-07-2022, 09:15 PM

Not okay. Still genocide.
1956

Yes, it's still genocide.

But it's okay.

In everyday human life, it's not okay to stop a race from procreating against their will and having them die out, assuming they're sentient and have human thought capacity.

In a war where one side has giants and one side is figuring out how to secure victory against the other? It's fine. It's the least violent way to effectively have peace.

We've been engineering a virus that does just that against rabbits in Australia. That, or we keep doing what we're doing right now and just shooting/clubbing/baiting/whatever-ing the rabbits we come across.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 03-07-2022, 10:53 PM

Damn, you just compared Eldians to rabbits.

I'm with Darth. There are better options that don't include genocide, even if it can fail in the future and another solution needs to be found then.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-07-2022, 11:25 PM

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?!Okay, so what's the success rate of his CURRENT plan? What are the odds of Zeke just regaining control at any moment and sterilizing the Eldians? Can you tell me what that % is? Or would you just have to make up a number? How do you know the difference between an 80% success plan and a 50% plan?

And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.I feel like the fact that you think "Russia gets stronger and the EU looks weak" is "worse in the long run" than everyone dying in a nuclear war pretty much says it all.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 03-07-2022, 11:31 PM

Damn, you just compared Eldians to rabbits.

I did. I don't see humans as being much different to animals in regards to genocide or the suffering induced by taking away procreation success.

Both individuals suffer if violent murder was used instead, and both species are perceived as a threat by the other party.

Humans will be aware that their race will die out one day, and perhaps with it their culture or their version of history - but that doesn't really impact on the gravity of the genocide itself. That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

This is especially true if Zeke's Eldian Sterilisation Project managed to guarantee that remaining Eldians did not suffer the treatment they have been subjected to thus far. But, as I mentioned before, Zeke's sterilisation plan is flawed because it doesn't address the fact that Marley wants Eldians for military purposes.

We're talking about solutions to win a war and addressing the various objectives of Marley, the world and Paradise Island.

Co-existence isn't impossible, because there's a kink in the story. Remember that Marley wants the Founding Titan because the world is getting better at killing titans. They want the Founding Titan to dominate the world before the other countries' tech trees overtake theirs. Meanwhile, the world is "apparently" scared of the Rumbling and is happy to help (we don't know for sure, we've only seen Marley come on this offensive).

So what should technically happen in 100 years' time? If what Marley says is true, then there will come a time when Eldians are themselves not a threat. In a world where everyone can kill titans with relative ease, Eldians cease to be the feared race that they were.

Conditions for peacefully ending this conflict would be:

1) Guaranteeing Paradise Island's safety.
2) Removing Marley's objective of world domination.
3) Removing the treat of titans by giving the world titan-killing technology.

That's a pipe dream though.

Eren's choosing to nuke everyone instead. Similarly in real life, nukes are super effective. Difference between his world and ours is that he's the only side that has them, while in our world nukes are slow and a few people have them, so the concept of guaranteed mutual destruction gave us relative peace and the cold war.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 03-08-2022, 01:53 AM

That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

This isn't really the difference though. The difference is the genocide of a society that you can understand and converse with versus one you cannot. That is really the fundamental difference between humans and animals, or as you say, Eldians and rabbits.

In your worldview, we are basically not more immoral if we kill a human vs killing a rabbit, and we do kill a ton of rabbits with no repercussions IRL, so that entails we can kill humans with no repercussions. At the very least, in trying to maintain a functional and enduring human society, the latter cannot be condoned.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 03-08-2022, 03:30 AM

Foreword: I tried writing a bunch of quotes/replies, but I’m going to use fresh dot-points to express my views since that’s more clear. Plus my previous post may have been misleading about a thing or two so I won’t re-quote that.

So, here goes.

-I agree that both sterilization and killing of individuals amount to genocide. I disagree that both forms of genocide are the same thing.

-I think sterilization of humans and sterilization of animals is comparable. Means of sterilization aside, the harm (or lack thereof) is equal.

-I think there is a difference in the killing of animals vs the killing of humans on an individual level. The difference comes down to the latter being able to comprehend their sense of self, having a concept of time and future, and what murder/killing/death means in relation to that. Animals vary in their understanding of the above. Not all animals are equal.

To give some examples here, I’d say that the hierarchy of least to most immoral killing would be something like:

5wk embryo = 32wk foetus = 2 day old baby
Demented person lacking awareness but knows hunger and sleep etc = random mammal.
Human/being with higher order thought processes intact.

-Being able to communicate with the victim doesn’t change the morality of killing per se. It changes whether or not other options are available to explore. The morality of killing depends on the victim’s sentience as above. Communication (either one-way or two-way) does help us establish how sentient each party is however.

-I share Darth’s sense of scale when it comes to large scale killing. When it goes beyond an individual level and we’re talking about thousands of lives, I can’t process the comparison of animals vs humans and I consider them effectively a number/statistic. They might as well be equal.

MFauli

Tue, 03-08-2022, 04:37 AM

Okay, so what's the success rate of his CURRENT plan? What are the odds of Zeke just regaining control at any moment and sterilizing the Eldians? Can you tell me what that % is? Or would you just have to make up a number? How do you know the difference between an 80% success plan and a 50% plan?

100%. At least that's what Eren is thinking at the moment.

And I'd still like to hear 2-3 alternative avenues that don't involve anyone's genocide. I'm not asking for a "gotcha", I'm honestly curious, because I cannot think of a no genocide-scenario, other than relaying a decision to future generations, which wouldn't solve the issue.

I feel like the fact that you think "Russia gets stronger and the EU looks weak" is "worse in the long run" than everyone dying in a nuclear war pretty much says it all.

"Everyone dying" from Mr. "You're thinking too black and white". A couple nukes would hit. The West would live on. Cities be rebuilt. At some point a decision needs to made and I'd rather it be made when Russia is at its weakest and before more innocent countries are being invaded by them. The West doesn't have some god-given right of not being hit by war realities. Fuck Putin.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-08-2022, 06:23 AM

And I'd still like to hear 2-3 alternative avenues that don't involve anyone's genocide. I'm not asking for a "gotcha", I'm honestly curious, because I cannot think of a no genocide-scenario, other than relaying a decision to future generations, which wouldn't solve the issue.I gave my preferred course of action already in a response to neflight:

Like, realistically, Eren should just be able to smash Marley's military and government. Free his fellow Eldians, and then begin negotiations with the other countries, having just freed them all from Marley's oppression. Hell, the Japanese-ish country was ALREADY willing to ally with them.And again, you're putting another unnecessary requirement on to the end. Now the plan also has to be "actions of future generations"-proof? Why?

"Everyone dying" from Mr. "You're thinking too black and white". A couple nukes would hit. The West would live on.Not sure why you think that. The whole reason nuclear deterrence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_theory#:~:text=Deterrence%20theory%20ho lds%20that%20nuclear,an%20attack%20by%20convention al%20forces.) has worked up until now is because of the idea neither side can nuke the other because both the US and Russia have enough nukes to literally blanket the opposite hemisphere in fire.

The idea being, as soon as you launch a couple nukes at Russia, Putin, knowing that it's the end of him, and being the asshole that he is, wouldn't respond with just a couple surgical strikes. And at that point, even if you aren't hit by a nuke directly, the nuclear fallout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter) afterwards is likely enough to wipe out mankind.

shinta|hikari

Tue, 03-08-2022, 09:03 PM

-I agree that both sterilization and killing of individuals amount to genocide. I disagree that both forms of genocide are the same thing.

Agreed. Killing individuals is certainly worse.

-I think sterilization of humans and sterilization of animals is comparable. Means of sterilization aside, the harm (or lack thereof) is equal.

The main difference here is that sterilization for humans will result in their culture and history vanishing since there will be no descendants to continue them. Animals do not have such concepts, living only in the present with no understanding of history or legacy.

5wk embryo = 32wk foetus = 2 day old baby
Demented person lacking awareness but knows hunger and sleep etc = random mammal.
Human/being with higher order thought processes intact.

I disagree with the first statement because a 2-day-old baby has the potential to grow into an adult human WITHOUT having to be a parasite to its mother. Fetuses are different from born babies in this strict sense and should give them human rights. The rest I agree with.

Communication (either one-way or two-way) does help us establish how sentient each party is however.

This was the root of my point. If a creature cannot communicate at the level of human beings, then they should not be treated at the same level as human beings. The results of this can vary according to personal morality, such as vegans who treat most animal life as precious, or in contrast, people like me who will eat anything including humans (that are already dead) if it wouldn't land me in trouble.

-I share Darth’s sense of scale when it comes to large scale killing. When it goes beyond an individual level and we’re talking about thousands of lives, I can’t process the comparison of animals vs humans and I consider them effectively a number/statistic. They might as well be equal.

Was that really Darth's point, though? I think he'd see killing thousands of humans vs thousands of chickens in a different light, as would I.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 03-09-2022, 02:15 AM

Yeah, I don't place any of the same value on animals that I do on sapient life.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 03-09-2022, 04:14 AM

The main difference here is that sterilization for humans will result in their culture and history vanishing since there will be no descendants to continue them. Animals do not have such concepts, living only in the present with no understanding of history or legacy.

I disagree there that culture makes the genocide more unacceptable. A culture-rich race does not deserve to live on more than one that doesn't have one. That's what I said here:

That is, genocide of a culture-rich society is the same as genocide of a cultureless society.

------------

I disagree with the first statement because a 2-day-old baby has the potential to grow into an adult human WITHOUT having to be a parasite to its mother. Fetuses are different from born babies in this strict sense and should give them human rights.

A 2 day old baby is completely dependant on the mother. It can not survive on its own in any way. Self-sufficiency isn't so much the issue as self-awareness. Nor can it communicate to the level of a competent human. I pretty much share Peter Singer's views on this topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion,_euthanasia,_and_infanticide

Was that really Darth's point, though? I think he'd see killing thousands of humans vs thousands of chickens in a different light, as would I.

I didn't think he'd consider animal and human life to be of similar weight, but the tl;dr version after I re-read his post is that I did misread some of what he read. That said, re-reading that.. Darth you say that Global sterilisation is 11 and global killing is 12, but murder is 10.. so sterilisation > murder?

Personally, when it comes to global genocide, I consider all species more or less the same. Delete human = world loses a species. Delete dog, world loses a species. The world doesn't care if you have history or thought. I think ultimately we kill other living things because we can, because we find it beneficial, and because the other party isn't advanced enough to fight back.

I should mention at this point that I think Thanos did what was needed, which makes it the correct thing.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 03-09-2022, 07:17 AM

Personally, when it comes to global genocide, I consider all species more or less the same. Delete human = world loses a species. Delete dog, world loses a species. The world doesn't care if you have history or thought.To me, human beings are the world. I don't particularly give a shit what the inanimate ball of rock we happen to live on thinks about the subject.

I should mention at this point that I think Thanos did what was needed, which makes it the correct thing.:rolleyes: Whatever you say, chief.

shinta|hikari

Wed, 03-09-2022, 08:43 AM

@Buff - Thank you for the clear answers. While I have differing opinions about some of what you said, I really appreciate the consistency in your views.

While not as detached as yours, I have a fairly unemotional reason for my opinion about putting humans above animals and caring for them in general (which makes killing them a bad thing). It's isn't really empathy or even a sense of attachment to being the same species. I simply find beauty in striving for improvement rather than letting stagnation and regression naturally continue. It just so happens humans are the most prevalent and dominant species on earth and thus has the most impact when changed in my lifetime, making the effort, or at the very least chasing the ideal, more worthwhile.

This is also why I'm not so worried about climate change because I'll probably be dead before shit truly hits the fan. In contrast, I worry about nuclear war now because things will go to shit so fast, and I don't want to die yet.

MFauli

Sun, 03-13-2022, 10:08 AM

No episode this week?

Buffalobiian

Sun, 03-13-2022, 10:16 PM

It's out. (ep85)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Somehow Yelena is supposed to know where Eren's headed when she was a Zeke loyalist?

Duo titans show why dual bosses are such a bitch to fight.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 03-13-2022, 10:53 PM

Somehow Yelena is supposed to know where Eren's headed when she was a Zeke loyalist?He told Eren everything about the mainland. So she might know what his targets will be.

MFauli

Mon, 03-14-2022, 05:00 AM

That was a bad episode :/

Sorry, but am I supposed to empathize with the "heroes" when they're THAT overwhelmingly in advantage?! Blabla mission goals blabla, but Floch's group never a chance once battle broke out. All the heroes + titans versus group of randos. Exciting /s

This didn't need more than half an episode, considering how predictable it went. And fuck Armin and Conny. A situation like this is where you give up on your grand plan because you realize it's right to kill friends over it.

Also I just want to see Annie suffer. Bitch feels no remorse at all, slamming helpless people again like it's nothing.

Edit:

Question to manga readers, only yes or no pls, and send me a PM if posting it here is too much: Are 2 episodes enough to cover the rest of the story or can we expect more anime, maybe in the form of a movie? Just wondering, because I just realized it's only 2 more episodes :/

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-14-2022, 08:19 AM

All the heroes + titans versus group of randos.You mean the thing 90% of the series used to be about?

Bitch feels no remorse at all, slamming helpless people again like it's nothing.And it's sooooo fucking satisfying. Floch's group are the the worst fucking Nazi-wannabes. It's just too bad Floch himself isn't dead yet.

MFauli

Mon, 03-14-2022, 08:39 AM

You mean the thing 90% of the series used to be about?

We must have watched different shows then, because my Attack on Titan was about underdogs fighting against all odds. Not dominating the battlefield.

And it's sooooo fucking satisfying. Floch's group are the the worst fucking Nazi-wannabes. It's just too bad Floch himself isn't dead yet.

What is wrong with you :/ The nazi-wannabes are the one's trying to eradicade their own people "for the greater good".

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-15-2022, 12:34 AM

We must have watched different shows then, because my Attack on Titan was about underdogs fighting against all odds. Not dominating the battlefield.Right. The entire first half of the series was about a bunch of randos going up against titans and getting their ass kicked. The thing you just complained about.

I mean, Annie is literally doing all the same shit she was doing in the arc that focused on her.

The nazi-wannabes are the one's trying to eradicade their own people "for the greater good".No. The Nazi-wannabes are the ones trying to wipe out all other races for the ambitions of a global empire.

Edited. Tone it down.
-Buff.

neflight86

Wed, 03-16-2022, 01:17 PM

Sorry, but am I supposed to empathize with the "heroes" when they're THAT overwhelmingly in advantage?! Blabla mission goals blabla, but Floch's group never a chance once battle broke out. All the heroes + titans versus group of randos. Exciting /s

This isn't about empathizing with 'heroes' and 'villains'. It's not about catharsis. This (entire second half of this season) is about the conclusion to a set of events and decisions (made by all sides) that have apocalyptic repercussions. The tension in this fight/operation was outlined from the start- protect the engineers and the airship or this is a failure. No doubt the Jagerists are outmatched, but they have an advantageous win condition.

And fuck Armin and Conny. A situation like this is where you give up on your grand plan because you realize it's right to kill friends over it.

I think you're saying that they should never have tried to do this bloodlessly due to the stakes. Two counter points: first, the deception afforded them the opportunity to get into range to disable the bomb. Second, this builds on the previously demonstrated themes of the show. In season three, Armin wanted to talk to Bertholt before it came to (more) violence, and just last episode at the camp fire, everyone was reminded that Marco died begging for a chance to 'talk it out'. Armin (and Connie) are kind enough to put their lives on the line to try and spare their former comrades, but it doesn't work out.

Matter of fact, they only succeed because Thomas and Daz didn't want to kill them in the first place. The weight of their duty compelled Connie to finally pull the trigger when Daz (and arguably Thomas) didn't because of friendship. They did realize it was 'right to kill their friends over it', but that decision wasn't made in a sociopathic vacuum. That's why the human drama in AoT is so compelling. It never loses sight of both the good and bad parts of how people are and how they are affected by the cruelty of this world.

Never have I thought someone was as screwed as when Annie and Reiner both transformed behind Floch, but somehow he's still kicking. Revolutionary as he is, as far as I can tell he's just a normal person with monomania and his trauma from the suicide charge.

MFauli

Wed, 03-16-2022, 04:26 PM

This isn't about empathizing with 'heroes' and 'villains'. It's not about catharsis. This (entire second half of this season) is about the conclusion to a set of events and decisions (made by all sides) that have apocalyptic repercussions. The tension in this fight/operation was outlined from the start- protect the engineers and the airship or this is a failure. No doubt the Jagerists are outmatched, but they have an advantageous win condition.

I think you're saying that they should never have tried to do this bloodlessly due to the stakes. Two counter points: first, the deception afforded them the opportunity to get into range to disable the bomb. Second, this builds on the previously demonstrated themes of the show. In season three, Armin wanted to talk to Bertholt before it came to (more) violence, and just last episode at the camp fire, everyone was reminded that Marco died begging for a chance to 'talk it out'. Armin (and Connie) are kind enough to put their lives on the line to try and spare their former comrades, but it doesn't work out.

Matter of fact, they only succeed because Thomas and Daz didn't want to kill them in the first place. The weight of their duty compelled Connie to finally pull the trigger when Daz (and arguably Thomas) didn't because of friendship. They did realize it was 'right to kill their friends over it', but that decision wasn't made in a sociopathic vacuum. That's why the human drama in AoT is so compelling. It never loses sight of both the good and bad parts of how people are and how they are affected by the cruelty of this world.

Never have I thought someone was as screwed as when Annie and Reiner both transformed behind Floch, but somehow he's still kicking. Revolutionary as he is, as far as I can tell he's just a normal person with monomania and his trauma from the suicide charge.

Hence why the whole setup of that episode makes me sympathize with Floch the most :/

I see your point about Armin and Connie giving talking a chance mirroring Marco. If that was intentional, it's a nice idea indeed.

MFauli

Sun, 03-20-2022, 05:15 PM

Episode 86:

Floch is a hero.

Fighting against the armored titan, the female titan, the jaw titan, Mikasa, Jean, Conny, Armin, the Pieck titan, and the Marleyan guys, and ALMOST winning. That sequence where he rushed towards the ship to land the deciding blow with a missile against the ship was breathtaking and I was rooting so hard for him. He really is the Yagami Light of this decade. But praise must go to all his team mates, too. None of them were named, important characters, and here they are bravely fighting several of the scariest disasters that ever appeared in Eldia. I was almost crying when the train exploded - so many courageous people murdered in the blink of an eye, just so that some murderous traitors can set their plan in motion. There's a slim hope that Floch is still alive as he just fell into the water while still conscious. Hopefully he can heal and take revenge.

However, wtf, how can this story end with only one episode left?! THat's impossible, right? Nobody here answered my question last week, but at this point in time I assume they either lied about the "final" season part, or that there's gonna be a movie to conclude the story. Would be a very abrupt ending if all the open questions are cut dry in only 20 more minutes. Even withou t answering everything, the pacing would be so absurd high that it'd ruin the feel of the episode. Oh well.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 03-20-2022, 08:23 PM

I got the impression that Levi was supposed to have less of his lower body after Zeke blew him up. He's now just "wounded".

DarthEnderX

Sun, 03-20-2022, 09:47 PM

It's fitting the worst character in the series gets taken out by the other worst character in the series.

But praise must go to all his team mates, too. None of them were named, important characters, and here they are bravely fighting several of the scariest disasters that ever appeared in Eldia. I was almost crying when the train exploded - so many courageous people murdered in the blink of an eye, just so that some murderous traitors can set their plan in motion.Being the underdog doesn't automatically make them right. Morally, they're more monstrous than the titans.

I especially love how you call them "murderous", when Floch was literally in the middle of murdering unarmed prisoners when they arrived. Your double standards are hilarious.

However, wtf, how can this story end with only one episode left?! THat's impossible, right? Nobody here answered my question last weekI assume some people here are manga readers and, thus, it'd be spoiling to answer your question.

neflight86

Tue, 03-22-2022, 09:22 AM

Lets give Mfauli some credit (where it is due): It is more fun to argue about this stuff than to hold hands and kombaya the praises of our heroes endlessly.

Floch got the same treatment most in anime do when they persevere in the face of adversity. He got so close, but was shut down in the end, and we got some fine spectacle out of it. What interests me, though, is there there was no 'gotcha' flashback bridging the stampede survivor to the fascist we ended up with. Actually, I guess we may have seen that in plain sight as season four progressed. While I understand his eventual position, I think a little more context... maybe just one more small scene between "You should have saved Erwin!" and "Death to the outside!" would have been more satisfying, from a storytelling perspective. It may also be the year gap between seasons has faded my memory.

Gabi must have a passive accuracy bonus against flying targets, and the animation made Connie look like he caught a few bullets after he activated his diet ackerman mode. Mikasa also had some fine murder this episode, but the action was truly merely icing on the cake.

I like that Pieck even warned "the first transformation never goes well" to Falco.

Magath and Sades got a good farewell, and seldom has there been a more clear cut handing off to a newer generation, which ironically may be the last generation. Both got some good closure.

I understand there is no episode next week, but the week after we're getting an hour long finale, or something.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-22-2022, 11:44 AM

Watching this episode made me realize the AoT world is way smaller than I thought. Less than a day to cross the sea? 4 days to trample an entire continent.

Lets give Mfauli some credit (where it is due): It is more fun to argue about this stuff than to hold hands and kombaya the praises of our heroes endlessly.Technically, he's still doing that. He's just convinced himself that Eren is still the hero.

MFauli

Tue, 03-22-2022, 11:50 AM

Watching this episode made me realize the AoT world is way smaller than I thought. Less than a day to cross the sea? 4 days to trample an entire continent.[/qote]

The author didn't think this through. The episode said "600km in 1 day" or so. Ok, that's 600km ... with a width of what, 100-200 meters, whatever the broadness of one of the giant titans is. That is nothing. Saying "the world is small" based on that is like saying "your lawn is only 20meters", ignoring that your lawnmower is only like half a meter broad, requiring many, many rows of 20 meters length. The few titans Eren controls will take years to do comprehensive damage to the world.

[quote]Technically, he's still dong that. He's just convinced himself that Eren is still the hero.

You convinced yourself that the traitor group is. Here's what I wrote today on MAL, but it's quite fitting to your absurd pov, too:

Lots of word around that FACT that the traitors are targeting exactly the same goal as Floch, except their factional association differs.

To point at Yeagerists' misdemeanor is just a shallow, cheap attempt at justifying the traitors' actions. Was Floch always "nice"? No. But he did what he had to do to SURVIVE. Complaining about making Eldians drink the spinal fluid wine as if Floch just wanted to be evil - WRONG. It was a crucial part of their plan to survive and as we saw, it worked out the way he intended it to. You criticize him for sacrifizing some of his own people, yet you cannot answer what would have been the alternative. I'll tell you: Extinction. Without the Yeagerist's plan, Eldians would already be gone, murdered by Marleyan troops. Or worse, Zeke's plan would have succeeded and Eldian's would have been condemned to a slow genocide, also ending in their going-extinct.

A battle for survival is never "nice" or pretty or 100% fair. I assume you're one of those Twitter-snowflakes that is currently campaigning against "Hogwarts Legacy" just because J. K. Rowling says an opinion out loud that the vast majority of people shares. Facts aren't nice. Facts are facts and important. Just like Yeagerists had to do the gruesome spinal fluid wine-plan to prevent a much, much greater evil from happening.

And you also ignore the elephant in the room: That Yeagerists, Floch and Eren are the absolute underdog! In any other story, they'd be the clear heroes. But for "reasons", the author of AoT decided that a minority fighting for survival against a majority should be the bad guys. Yeah, screw those Eldians who only want to keep existing, why don't they just lie down and die, amirite?! /s. Annie, Reiner, Pieck, Falco. Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Hange, Coonie. Gabitch. The Yeagerists are LITERALLY fighting against the ultimate plot armor, the combined named heroes - and they never gave up. If there was a video game that had you go up against 10 bosses in a row, you'd call that bullshit, and that'd be just a video game. For Floch and the Yeagerists, it was reality, and they didn't hesitate one piko second.

That final dash of Floch's is inspiring beyond anything the traitors have shown so far, cowardly and with fear on their face murdering their own friends. Mikasa enjoying bathing in the blood of others. Annie still not showing any shame or regret for what she did in the past, continuing to smash people like they're annoying flies. In all of this, Floch is a hero, and the Yeagerists are the bravest group of people this anime has shown us so far. No other group of people had to go up against such an invcincible enemy force before.

And here people like you have the gall to attribute genocide to one, but not the other group, when that's besides the point. The point is: One group only wanted to live in peace. The other group wants to murder the former. You're rooting for the latter - pretty fucked up if you ask me.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-22-2022, 02:14 PM

Lots of word around that FACT that the traitors are targeting exactly the same goal as Floch, except their factional association differs.Already wrong and where I immediately stopped reading. Because, this still assumes that Eldian and non-Eldian survival is mutually exclusive. As we've said many times, it isn't. Just because Eren has convinced himself it's true, doesn't mean it is.

Floch and Eren are trying to kill all non-Eldians. The protag-team is trying to stop them from doing that. They are NOT trying to kill all the Eldians. So, no, their goal isn't the same at all.

MFauli

Tue, 03-22-2022, 03:46 PM

Already wrong and where I immediately stopped reading. Because, this still assumes that Eldian and non-Eldian survival is mutually exclusive. As we've said many times, it isn't. Just because Eren has convinced himself it's true, doesn't mean it is.

Floch and Eren are trying to kill all non-Eldians. The protag-team is trying to stop them from doing that. They are NOT trying to kill all the Eldians. So, no, their goal isn't the same at all.

As YOU have said many times, and it has always been wrong. Your false assumption is that the outside-world would be willing to talk and keep peace. That is just not realistic. There'd be, at most, peace until Eren dies and the thread of the mega titans vanishes. Plus while peace, the outside world would progress technologically and eventally overpower titans. Those mega titans of Erens are nothing against a single nuke.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 03-22-2022, 08:08 PM

The author didn't think this through. The episode said "600km in 1 day" or so. Ok, that's 600km ... with a width of what, 100-200 meters, whatever the broadness of one of the giant titans is. That is nothing. Saying "the world is small" based on that is like saying "your lawn is only 20meters", ignoring that your lawnmower is only like half a meter broad, requiring many, many rows of 20 meters length. The few titans Eren controls will take years to do comprehensive damage to the world.

Why would you march your wall titans in single file? You don't sweep with a broom's narrow edge. You use the long edge. Same deal here.

(they're 50m tall btw, and human proportions data published in the 1970s record average human shoulder width to be 0.225 that of height, putting these titans' shoulder width at 11m each.)

The Walls reached about 50 meters in height from base to summit and were incredibly strong in substance.[5] However, the Female Titan was able to damage one of them when she attempted to climb over it,[6] and the Beast Titan was able to break off pieces of Wall Rose and throw them.[7]

The distance from Wall Maria to Wall Rose was said to be about 100 km, the distance from Wall Rose to Wall Sina about 130 km, and the radius of Wall Sina about 250 km.[8] Assuming the Walls to be perfect circles, this would have made the total perimeter of Wall Maria to be around 3,016 km with the total area inside the Walls being 723,822 km².

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-22-2022, 11:04 PM

As YOU have said many times, and it has always been wrong.The dichotomy, as presented, is completely ridiculous. Other viable avenues have been explained to you. My HOPE is that this dichotomy is just the characters being stupid and unwilling to entertain other solutions. Hopefully, it's not the WRITER being stupid and writing it so this dichotomy is real.

There'd be, at most, peace until Eren dies and the thread of the mega titans vanishesHe can just pass it on to someone else.

Plus while peace, the outside world would progress technologically and eventally overpower titans. Those mega titans of Erens are nothing against a single nuke.Then you don't let them.

Again, Eren holds ALL the power here. If he has enough power to flatten the entire world, then he has enough power to flatten weapon research and manufacture.

MFauli

Wed, 03-23-2022, 03:42 AM

Darth, it has been explained to you countless times why that's wrong. Instead you tell me that. Seriously? Why not throw in some insult while you're at it, sigh.

Why would you march your wall titans in single file? You don't sweep with a broom's narrow edge. You use the long edge. Same deal here.

(they're 50m tall btw, and human proportions data published in the 1970s record average human shoulder width to be 0.225 that of height, putting these titans' shoulder width at 11m each.)

1.) I was willing to go for a greather width to drive home the point. But they absolutely look wider than 11m to me. 2ßm at least.

2.) Anyway, why do you think I meant "in a column"? My assumption was that the titans walk away from Paradis into every direction, thus leaving a trail of 600km times 0.002km per day. That's a relatively tiny patch of flattened ground, basically you can easily avoid it.

3.) Now, you seem to think Eren leads all titans in a pulk, which I hadn't though of. But then it still takes a while to flatten an entire country and other countries have more time to prepare. Plus, again, I don't see how Eren can actually achieve killing everybody on the outside. It'd be still rather easy to avoid the titans, and while they'd break all houses and structures, there'd still be nature left/regrow quickly, so there'd be stuff to continue life with afterwards.

Until we see Eren's destruction plan in action (and we might, considering that some regions seem to be doomed already as was said this last episode), I'm doubtful about its viability in actual execution.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 03-23-2022, 04:05 AM

2.) Anyway, why do you think I meant "in a column"? My assumption was that the titans walk away from Paradis into every direction, thus leaving a trail of 600km times 0.002km per day. That's a relatively tiny patch of flattened ground, basically you can easily avoid it.

I assumed you meant a column because you talk about avoiding a single titan's span when there are thousands of titans around it.

Expanding from an epicentre has its weakness since density of titans reduces as you travel. I had a 3000km wall moving at 600km/day in mind.

I don't know what a pulk is. I googled it and I got some dog sleds.

MFauli

Wed, 03-23-2022, 04:15 AM

I assumed you meant a column because you talk about avoiding a single titan's span when there are thousands of titans around it.

Expanding from an epicentre has its weakness since density of titans reduces as you travel. I had a 3000km wall moving at 600km/day in mind.

I don't know what a pulk is. I googled it and I got some dog sleds.

Ah, sorry, assumed pulk was an English word, too lol. Means "bunch" or "group" in German.

Are there really "thousands" of those mega titans? Didn't look that many. But I guess if you assume that all the walls on Paradis are made of them, I guess that'd be close. 3000km width total sounds too much though. I guess we'd have to see a map of Paradis and measure it from there.

Found this:

https://i.redd.it/awjpfs4xafb61.jpg

That'd make it actually about 5000-6000km quickly estimating it. Definitely more mega titans than I thought before. But still even that takes time to truly flatten the world.

neflight86

Wed, 03-23-2022, 02:02 PM

I believe somewhere it was mentioned there were "millions" of titans in the walls. Also, their speed can be roughly calculated in that, within hours, it was commented that the most of the titans within wall Sina (the innermost wall and the last to leave by displacement) had left the boundary of Trost (a city on the outer edge of wall Maria). There was a roughly 60Km distance from Maria to Rose, and I'm not sure how much more to Sina, but I'm convinced they are traveling a a decent clip.

DarthEnderX

Wed, 03-23-2022, 02:06 PM

Are there really "thousands" of those mega titans? Didn't look that many.The show said millions. Though I agree it didn't look it.

Darth, it has been explained to you countless times why that's wrong.Your explanation always boils down to you thinking there are only two options just because a character said so. But a character saying a thing doesn't make it true. Especially when that character is Eren, a character that has been repeatedly shown to be both a huge dumbass, and that frequently goes into blind rages.

MFauli

Sun, 04-03-2022, 12:03 PM

ROFL, next season announced for 2023.

Only question now: HOW bad will the cliffhanger in today's episode be? lol

MFauli

Sun, 04-03-2022, 03:51 PM

Episode 87:

Wipe those bastards out, Eren.

DarthEnderX

Sun, 04-03-2022, 10:53 PM

Glad we got to see a little of the timeskip gap.

So...is Zeke dead? We didn't SEE him die, but we also haven't seen him since Eren's transformation. Did Eren eat him?

ROFL, next season announced for 2023.FUUUUUUUUCK!!

Wipe those bastards out, Eren.Yeah! Make sure you wipe out all those nice notTurks that welcomed you in while they, too, were suffering. And don't forget the notJapanese that actually helped you. Don't let a single one escape!

neflight86

Mon, 04-04-2022, 08:06 AM

A final season is nice (and a nice surprise- back to another year of spoiler dodging), as a movie would take even longer to reach my eyes. I'm ready for Attack on Titan to be over, but there's no way I'm prepared for it.

I'm grateful the time gap was somewhat filled in here. It gives more context, of course, and reinforces how difficult a decision this likely was to make (even if it was a wholly evil decision for the sake of a few).

Historia's place is still unclear to me. She's not against the genocide, but doesn't want the memories of it to feel guilt over? Am I understanding that right?

The battleship scene was good and spooky. The threat of the titans should now be pretty real to the world.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 04-04-2022, 11:24 AM

The battleship scene was good and spooky. The threat of the titans should now be pretty real to the world.I actually found the image of all the wall titans swimming ridiculous. I assumed they'd walk on the bottom. (actually, with how small the ocean was revealed to be, I half expected them to just wade across)

I wish we could get a clear look at Eren's titan.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 04-04-2022, 02:13 PM

Historia's place is still unclear to me. She's not against the genocide, but doesn't want the memories of it to feel guilt over? Am I understanding that right?

More or less.

She understands that Eren's plan is the most rational one if one was to prioritise Pradise Island's prosperity above all else, but she won't be able to get over her personal guilt. Eren was willing to wipe that guilt from her.

I understand Eren's side of things.

If one was to ensure no further Eldians get into a cycle of hating each other due to the titan issue, and one was to prioritize Paradise Island's welbeing above all else, genocide is an actionable plan.

MFauli

Mon, 04-04-2022, 03:40 PM

If one was to ensure no further Eldians get into a cycle of hating each other due to the titan issue, and one was to prioritize Paradise Island's welbeing above all else, genocide is an actionable plan.

Just for clarification: What Marley (and the traitors) are planning to do, is genocide, too, right? You're not saying "only one side is trying to commit genocide"?

Buffalobiian

Mon, 04-04-2022, 03:56 PM

Just for clarification: What Marley (and the traitors) are planning to do, is genocide, too, right? You're not saying "only one side is trying to commit genocide"?

Not technically.

Marley wants to destroy Paradise Island in order to get the Founding Titan. They still need Eldians around in order to use the Titans, so no they don't technically want to kill all Eldians.

MFauli

Mon, 04-04-2022, 04:07 PM

Not technically.

Marley wants to destroy Paradise Island in order to get the Founding Titan. They still need Eldians around in order to use the Titans, so no they don't technically want to kill all Eldians.

Ah, slavery. That's better then.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 04-04-2022, 04:44 PM

Ah, slavery. That's better then.Of the two choices between enslaving 10% of the human race, and murdering 90% of the human race, yes, it absolutely is.

That's moot though, because there aren't just two choices, and the "traitors" aren't on Marley's side, and as soon as Eren killing everyone is off the table, they'll go right back to fighting Marley.

MFauli

Mon, 04-04-2022, 05:05 PM

Again the "there aren't only 2 choices", omg. Your continued trolling really makes discussion unjoyous :/ CLEARLY, this anime presents us with TWO choices. If this were real, then you might be right, but in this fictional story, two is the limit of choices, there were no hints at alternative choices. And between those two, both lead to genocide.

And I will say again: It wasn't Eren nor Floch's side who started this conflict. They were just living (and trying to survive) on a remote island.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 04-04-2022, 06:45 PM

CLEARLY, this anime presents us with TWO choices. If this were real, then you might be right, but in this fictional story, two is the limit of choices, there were no hints at alternative choicesYer dumb.

And I will say again: It wasn't Eren nor Floch's side who started this conflict.Isn't he? He's Eldian. And the first Eldian King is the origin of this entire conflict.

And since you love reducing everything down to 2 ridiculously oversimplified options, Eren is technically on the same side as the first king.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 04-06-2022, 02:26 AM

What I was surprised to learn was that Floch indeed was clued in on Eren's plan right from the start. Historia too.

MFauli

Wed, 04-06-2022, 03:39 AM

What I was surprised to learn was that Floch indeed was clued in on Eren's plan right from the start. Historia too.

Yep, dito. It's what made me appreciate Floch even more. He wasn't some dumb underling, no, he was pretty much Eren's right hand.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 04-06-2022, 12:06 PM

I'm still not sure if Eren simply confided in him because he overheard everything, or whether Eren saw something in him. Historia was involved primarily because she holds the royal bloodline.

It looks like he sidelined everyone else because he knew exactly what kind of people they were - and if Historia the "bad girl" couldn't handle it then they wouldn't be able to either.

DarthEnderX

Sat, 12-24-2022, 10:57 PM

Where the hell is the ending?!

Buffalobiian

Sat, 12-24-2022, 11:41 PM

You talking about the outro song or the conclusion to the story?

DarthEnderX

Sun, 12-25-2022, 02:09 PM

I mean when is "The Final Season", season 3?!

MFauli

Sun, 12-25-2022, 11:36 PM

I mean when is "The Final Season", season 3?!

I wanna know when "The Final Season - The Final Part" is. >_>

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-26-2022, 02:37 AM

I wanna know when "The Final Season - The Final Part" is. >_>
https://media.tenor.com/SUNioctcfEUAAAAC/this.gif

DarthEnderX: "Reasons and motivations? GTFO, lol!"There is no reason or motivation in existence that justifies what he's planning to do.

MFauli

Mon, 12-26-2022, 02:57 AM

There is no reason or motivation in existence that justifies what he's planning to do.

Team Mikasa/Armin want to commit genocide against Eldians "for the greater good".

Team Floch/Eren defend Eldians pro-actively by killing everyone else, because "everyone else" can't stop themselves from attacking Eldians.

If you want to say "there are no morally good sides here, everyone is wrong/right to some degree", that'd be okay. But painting Mikasa/Armin as the good guys and Floch/Eren as the bad guys, that's just insane.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-26-2022, 08:31 AM

Team Mikasa/Armin want to commit genocide against Eldians "for the greater good".Blatantly false. Not genociding everyone else isn't genociding the Eldians.

Team Floch/Eren defend Eldians pro-actively by killing everyone else, because "everyone else" can't stop themselves from attacking Eldians.Blatantly false. The Hizuru already don't want to kill them. And everyone else really only wants to kill them because of the Marleyans. If you topple the Marley regime, you can reason with the rest of the world.

If you want to say "there are no morally good sides here, everyone is wrong/right to some degree", that'd be okay. But painting Mikasa/Armin as the good guys and Floch/Eren as the bad guys, that's just insane.I mean, we can do that if you want. But Mikasa/Armin are, like, a 2/10 on the villainy scale and Floch/Eren are an 11/10.

MFauli

Mon, 12-26-2022, 09:51 AM

Blatantly false. Not genociding everyone else isn't genociding the Eldians.

The anime presents 2 options. Floch and Eren choosing to save Eldians from attacking others is not evil.

Blatantly false. The Hizuru already don't want to kill them. And everyone else really only wants to kill them because of the Marleyans. If you topple the Marley regime, you can reason with the rest of the world.

Again, the anime presents 2 options. The Hizuru are a tiny, as we learn unimportant group. There is no hint from anyone that only Marleyans want to kill Eldians. And even if not killing, there's still enslaving.

I mean, we can do that if you want. But Mikasa/Armin are, like, a 2/10 on the villainy scale and Floch/Eren are an 11/10.

You have it backwards.

From the pov of the Eldian heroes:
- Mikasa/Armin choose to help genocide their own people for the greater good of a future world.
- Floch/Eren choose to genocide the rest of the world to defend their own people from being eradicated.

Basically, Floch/Eren are like the Jews in 1943, except they got titans.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-26-2022, 11:03 AM

The anime presents 2 options.No, the anime's worst characters present 2 options. Anyone over the age of 7 is supposed to be able to tell that they're wrong.

Basically, Floch/Armin are like the Jews in 1943, except they got titans.Correct. They're like if the Jews in 1943 got titans, and instead of using them to defeat the Nazis, they used them to genocide every non-Jewish person on the planet.

MFauli

Mon, 12-26-2022, 11:06 AM

No, the anime's worst characters present 2 options. Anyone over the age of 7 is supposed to be able to tell that they're wrong.

Correct. They're like if the Jews in 1943 got titans, and instead of using them to defeat the Nazis, they used them to genocide every non-Jewish person on the planet.

1.) Meant to write "Floch/Eren".

2.) No, the analogy is that the whole world is nazis, just like for Jews in German KZs, there was only nazis surrounding them.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 12-26-2022, 02:31 PM

2.) No, the analogy is that the whole world is nazisRight, which is why your analogy, and your entire argument, is wrong.

Marley is the Nazis. Everyone else is just people conquered by Marley, who are only going along with them because they can't stop them. It's like saying Poland, France and North Africa are Nazis.

If Eren stops the Marleyans, there's no reason for everyone else to keep following their lead. Just like with the Nazis.

And like I said, the anime makes this super obvious. There's a reason why the instant Eren embarks on this course of action, he ceases to be a POV character anymore. Because he's the villain now.

MFauli

Tue, 12-27-2022, 04:20 AM

Right, which is why your analogy, and your entire argument, is wrong.

Marley is the Nazis. Everyone else is just people conquered by Marley, who are only going along with them because they can't stop them. It's like saying Poland, France and North Africa are Nazis.

If Eren stops the Marleyans, there's no reason for everyone else to keep following their lead. Just like with the Nazis.

And like I said, the anime makes this super obvious. There's a reason why the instant Eren embarks on this course of action, he ceases to be a POV character anymore. Because he's the villain now.

It has been said countless times that whole world wants Eldians gone. Pls cite a single scene where it is made clear that only Marley wants that.

Also: Even if it's only Marley - you just said everyone else was conquered by Marley. So ... duh ...

DarthEnderX

Tue, 12-27-2022, 07:50 AM

It has been said countless times that whole world wants Eldians gone.Again. By characters that are assholes. You aren't supposed to agree with them.

It's like when Madara says, "Mind controlling everyone inside a giant tree is the only path to world peace." You aren't supposed to go, "Oh, well I guess they better get on up inside that tree there then." for fuck's sake.

Just. Because. A. Character. Says. Something. Doesn't. Make. It. True.

Even if it's only Marley - you just said everyone else was conquered by Marley. So ... duh ...Hey numbnuts. Guess what happens when you liberate someone from their conqueror. They don't stay conquered. See: Poland/France/North Africa/etc. After the Nazis were defeated, those countries didn't STAY Nazi controlled.

The whole start of season 4 shows Marley at war with these other countries. If you get RID of Marley, those countries aren't just going to keep on towing the Marley line.

MFauli

Tue, 12-27-2022, 09:41 AM

Again. By characters that are assholes.

By the only ones that tell us stuff. You making up stuff inside your mind doesn't make it a valid argument.

Hey numbnuts. Guess what happens when you liberate someone from their conqueror. They don't stay conquered. See: Poland/France/North Africa/etc. After the Nazis were defeated, those countries didn't STAY Nazi controlled.

The whole start of season 4 shows Marley at war with these other countries. If you get RID of Marley, those countries aren't just going to keep on towing the Marley line.

The world of AoT can't be compared to our real world 1:1 and you know that. The whole world saw what titans can do when Marley conquered them. They, EVERYONE, want the titans gone. Afaik they all expressed their hatred toward titans. Killing Marley leadership won't remove the world's fear of Eldians. It's irrational, like our real world's hate towards innocent pedophiles: The moment the word "pedophile" is used, people lose all their IQ and become dumb. "Kill them!", "Castrate them!", "Monsters!" - towards innocent people who have never committed a crime. And no, hardly anyone makes a difference between pedo-criminals and innocent people who just happen to have a pedophilic attraction that they don't act upon. This is what it's like with Eldians: Them promising not to attack the world with their titan powers wasn't enough for the world. Thus the world tries to eradicate all Eldians. And that is a sentiment not exclusive to Marley.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 12-27-2022, 10:47 AM

By the only ones that tell us stuff. You making up stuff inside your mind doesn't make it a valid argument.The SHOW is SHOWING you otherwise!

For fuck's sake, GABBY doesn't even want the Eldians dead any more. And she is THE WORST. If they can convince her, they can convince LITERALLY ANYONE. The show is DESPERATELY trying to show you that and you just REFUSE to acknowledge that it's even an option.

It's irrational, like our real world's hate towards innocent pedophiles: The moment the word "pedophile" is used, people lose all their IQ and become dumb. "Kill them!", "Castrate them!", "Monsters!" - towards innocent people who have never committed a crime.And in this metaphor you've crafted, the only way for pedophiles to live in peace is to...murder every non-pedophile on the planet.

Thus the world tries to eradicate all Eldians. And that is a sentiment not exclusive to Marley.Except Marley's plan WASN'T to get rid of the Titans. It was to capture the founder so they can have extra big control over the titans, and the world. They don't want the Eldians dead, they want the re-enslaved.

And, for some inexplicable reason, most of the other countries are okay with this plan. Because Willy Tybur said so, and apparently everyone listens to him.

So yeah, actually, almost nobody wants the Eldians dead. It's pretty much just Zeke and his tiny faction.

MFauli

Tue, 12-27-2022, 12:36 PM

The SHOW is SHOWING you otherwise!

For fuck's sake, GABBY doesn't even want the Eldians dead any more. And she is THE WORST. If they can convince her, they can convince LITERALLY ANYONE. The show is DESPERATELY trying to show you that and you just REFUSE to acknowledge that it's even an option.

And in this metaphor you've crafted, the only way for pedophiles to live in peace is to...murder every non-pedophile on the planet.

Except Marley's plan WASN'T to get rid of the Titans. It was to capture the founder so they can have extra big control over the titans, and the world. They don't want the Eldians dead, they want the re-enslaved.

And, for some inexplicable reason, most of the other countries are okay with this plan. Because Willy Tybur said so, and apparently everyone listens to him.

So yeah, actually, almost nobody wants the Eldians dead. It's pretty much just Zeke and his tiny faction.

Oh, I'm sorry: The world only wants all Eldians enslaved. Not murdered. Mea culpa.

MFauli

Fri, 01-20-2023, 03:25 AM

https://twitter.com/anime_shingeki/status/1615272849819815936?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1615272849819815936%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Final Season Part 3 Final Arc Part 1

:|

neflight86

Fri, 01-20-2023, 09:39 AM

From what I heard, the language was vague and by 'two parts', they may mean two elongated episodes. Airs in March.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 01-20-2023, 08:26 PM

The Last Part - Part 3 - Part 2

Dumbest shit ever.

From what I heard, the language was vague and by 'two parts', they may mean two elongated episodes.If that's the case, they should have just made a movie.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 01-21-2023, 01:07 AM

I just rewatched the "Manipulate Grisha" episode and the "Turn Ymir to your side" episode.

They were so good.

neflight86

Fri, 02-10-2023, 10:52 AM

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/daily-briefs/2023-02-08/attack-on-titan-the-final-season-part-3-anime-1st-half-airs-as-1-hour-special-on-march-3/.194668

Some confirmation that we're getting two hour long episodes to end out AoT, if anyone was still wondering.

MFauli

Fri, 02-10-2023, 11:17 AM

On the one hand ... two 1-hour episodes is nice.

On the other hand ... ONLY two more episodes?! I really wonder how everything can be wrapped up with that. Well, if it's trly 1 hour each and not actuallly 45 minutes, then it's basically 6 more episodes, half a season. Still ... phew.

DarthEnderX

Fri, 02-10-2023, 07:47 PM

I really wonder how everything can be wrapped up with that.1. Land plane on Erentitan.
2. Talk him down.

Well, if it's trly 1 hour each and not actuallly 45 minutes, then it's basically 6 more episodes, half a season.It probably means hour-long airing. So 4 episodes-worth.

shinta|hikari

Fri, 02-10-2023, 08:58 PM

I cannot imagine Eren is going to back down no matter what at this point.

MFauli

Sat, 02-11-2023, 10:47 AM

I cannot imagine Eren is going to back down no matter what at this point.

And I really hope it wins. Don't let this be a Death Note-repeat pls :(

DarthEnderX

Sun, 02-12-2023, 12:26 AM

Don't let this be a Death Note-repeat plsJFC.......

Buffalobiian

Sun, 02-12-2023, 05:51 AM

I just hope it makes sense. Light losing didn't seem to make that much sense last time I watched Death Note.

neflight86

Fri, 03-03-2023, 05:47 PM

Part 3 (Part 1)

Oof. It's gonna take a while to sink in. The whole episode, really. Hanji is gone and... confirmed coordinate afterlife?

Floch, for all the heady-handed things he has done, really believed in his cause when he had no further reason to put on airs.

I was greatly dissapointed at first, when they separated Gabbi, Falco, and the Annie from the main group, but turns out that was a set up for some new powers and they confirmed that, against all odds, the liberio insurrection succeeded! Annie (and the other Marlean Eldians) has some skin in the game again, so to speak, but how will that be communicated to her?

Glad Onyonkoupon didn't die the instant after his piloting skills were no longer needed. He may still die, but at least not in a plane crash now, methinks.

The theme here seems to be accepting the burden of 'sins' one has committed, or questioning anyone's ability to act when they are absent a moral high ground from which to justify it. The answer? We have to, anyway.

Ehrahn can be such a tsun in how he is allowing others to oppose him as an expression of giving them freedom, when he clearly didn't want this to be the way it went down anyway? He is currenlty a slave to his own future memories, and surely sees that, so is this whole situation a rebellion against that 'wall'?

After the end credits we get another vague 2023, so my ulcer will just have to fester for a bit longer until I can get some satisfaction...

MFauli

Fri, 03-03-2023, 06:18 PM

neflight86

Fri, 03-03-2023, 07:12 PM

The first of the two hour long eps just dropped (https://nyaa.si/view/1644594). New material.

MFauli

Fri, 03-03-2023, 08:00 PM

Watched it.

First of all: Floch continues to deliver. Well, no more now, sadlol. He basically caused Hange's death, despite being killed at the end of last season. Doesn't get more badass than that.

Hange's death itself was badass, too, sad of course.

The final showdown with the plane dropping them on top of Eren was hype, although it just hit me there: Are Conny and Jean the only "normal" participants at this point? Well, if we consider Levi and Mikasa "human beasts", lol. I feel kinda bad for Conny and Jean, lol.

Why does Annie look like a little child now? Weird.

As for the overall story, it's hard to tell what's going on. If ALL the outside-people were like that airship commander, acknowledging their past sins and promising to never repeat them, then stopping Eren makes sense. However, since that cannot be assumed, I'm still of the opinion that Eren's approach is justified. My only issue here is: I have no idea whether Eren even still exists or has his own will. The way he talked to his "friends" sounded as if he's either possessed or gone mad.

Lastly, what are you guys thinking about this afterlife imagery with Hange and Erwin and the other dead people? Does it imply that there is an actual afterlife or is this strictly tied to the titans/titan god worm?

DarthEnderX

Sat, 03-04-2023, 11:53 AM

I'm glad that they just straight up confirmed that, yeah, Eren has the ability to just cure the Eldians of their Titanism. Basically allowing for all the upsides of the euthanasia plan, without the downside of the whole...going extinct thing.

Ehrahn can be such a tsun in how he is allowing others to oppose him as an expression of giving them freedom, when he clearly didn't want this to be the way it went down anyway? He is currenlty a slave to his own future memories, and surely sees that, so is this whole situation a rebellion against that 'wall'?That's my concern now. That they're explaining Eren's unwillingness to explore other solutions, even though he's holding ALL the cards, as him being locked into his future actions.

If ALL the outside-people were like that airship commander, acknowledging their past sins and promising to never repeat them, then stopping Eren makes sense. However, since that cannot be assumed, I'm still of the opinion that Eren's approach is justified."If even one person hates me. I have to kill ALL people. Just to be sure."

Still an astoundingly terrible take.

My only issue here is: I have no idea whether Eren even still exists or has his own will. The way he talked to his "friends" sounded as if he's either possessed or gone mad.What they seem to be implying, is that Eren can see his own future, but is unable to change it. So he's resigned himself to his fate.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 03-04-2023, 06:07 PM

Why does Annie look like a little child now? Weird.
Because she's in looooove.

But also because I think she didn't grow while in the crystal.

I agree that Floch and Hange were pretty badass. When things exactly burst into flames when near the wall of titans seems inconsistent but whatever. It also seems that underground bunkers seems to be the way to go for escaping the titans. They're also pretty dumb and don't respond to external threats, terrain or fallen titans at all.

As for Eren backing down if the whole world decides to repent, it's not that easy. For one, he's the Founding Titan only for as long as he's alive - and he's only got a limited lifespan. If no one consumes him, then he still dies and his power goes to a random Eldian who may or may not share his views. That person could also just reverse whatever changes he's made to all Eldians (assuming they are a royal, or have access to a royal), so there's no real permanent solution.

Eren channeling the Beast Titan for anti-air was super cool. I didn't expect that, and it brought to light how "manifesting" works (mixing titan powers). Now we just get to see how Annie manages to get back into the fight.

I'll also admit, I laughed at "I had to swallow all sorts of stuff".

DarthEnderX

Sun, 03-05-2023, 08:50 AM

For one, he's the Founding Titan only for as long as he's alive - and he's only got a limited lifespan. If no one consumes him, then he still dies and his power goes to a random Eldian who may or may not share his views. That person could also just reverse whatever changes he's made to all Eldians (assuming they are a royal, or have access to a royal), so there's no real permanent solution.Yes. If only there was some way for him to choose who to pass the titan on to...like the Marleyans have done for centuries...

Buffalobiian

Sun, 03-05-2023, 10:25 AM

So he's restricting the freedom of Eldians by taking away their traits, while removing the freedom of a future Founding by making them inherit the power?

Add this to the whole "can't be a royal but must maintain control of a royal to use this power" and this is highly unlikely to work. About as unlikely as the whole world repenting and happy to have one person hold the world nuke.

The Euthanasia plan works because it means no one can be born. Then the Founding Titan dies and has no one to reincarnate into.

MFauli

Sun, 03-05-2023, 10:51 AM

Here's the thing: Eldians didn't exist forever. Why can't this whole system not be ended? In other words: Find more of these god-worms or similar beings and figure out something from there.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 03-05-2023, 12:19 PM

You think the rest of the world wants to be a Devil Spawn?

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-06-2023, 01:38 PM

Here's the thing: Eldians didn't exist forever. Why can't this whole system not be ended? In other words: Find more of these god-worms or similar beings and figure out something from there.Why would he need more worms? If he can take away people's titan powers, he can take away the passing of those to future Eldians.

Right now, Eren can literally cure all Eldians forever with a thought.

MFauli

Mon, 03-06-2023, 02:08 PM

Why would he need more worms? If he can take away people's titan powers, he can take away the passing of those to future Eldians.

Right now, Eren can literally cure all Eldians forever with a thought.

Not Eren. The other people in the world should acquire god worms to fight Eldians on equal terms ^^

DarthEnderX

Mon, 03-06-2023, 02:42 PM

Not Eren. The other people in the world should acquire god worms to fight Eldians on equal termsAh. I see.

Hard to judge without knowing more about the worm's origins. If it landed here on a meteorite or something, it could very well be the only one of it's kind on the planet.

neflight86

Mon, 03-06-2023, 10:22 PM

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-07-2023, 01:29 AM

Perhaps removing the parasite's component of Eldian DNA or whatever is the one thing that the founding titan cannot do to their bodies, as that would eradicate the parasite, effectively. Maybe it wants to remain and propagate?You can keep the parasite and remove the titan forms. Supposedly, the titan forms are all personally constructed by Ymir. Just tell her to stop.

neflight86

Tue, 03-07-2023, 10:34 AM

She was doomed to making them at the, but the original one (herself in the flashback) wasn't made in the coordinate that we have seen, so I suspect it is something akin to the parasite's true form and irremovable.

I think the ones we saw her making were maybe the wall titans and were never actually human; they appear mindless.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 03-07-2023, 11:47 AM

I think the ones we saw her making were maybe the wall titans and were never actually human; they appear mindless.No more mindless than any other non-shifter Titan that's being puppeted.

neflight86

Tue, 09-12-2023, 08:20 AM

Mark your calendars, boys...

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2023-09-12/attack-on-titan-the-final-season-part-4-2nd-video-unveils-finale-november-4-premiere/.202263

Its almost time!

DarthEnderX

Tue, 09-12-2023, 09:28 AM

This is the ACTUAL for real final finale, right?

Buffalobiian

Tue, 09-12-2023, 09:53 AM

I'd be surprised if it's not.

MFauli

Sun, 09-17-2023, 11:33 AM

This is the ACTUAL for real final finale, right?

Yes

Until the announcement of 'The ACTUAL for real final finale plus One'

MFauli

Sun, 11-05-2023, 04:28 AM

Well, that was amazing. Lots of "rule of cool", but definitely one of the better, more satisfying ends to a long-running show.

Now gimme a sequel story lol

Buffalobiian

Sun, 11-05-2023, 02:12 PM

Final Season Part 3 Episode 2 (actually the final one)

-----------------------------------------

-That was quite conclusive and meta.
A slight flare of Evangelion TV ending feel, but actually making sense mostly.
It also reminds me of Code Geass S2's ending in terms of Eren taking on the sacrificial role and close friends crying for him - but better, because that S2 was a trainwreck.

-So Historia actually banged some random dude? The baby did look a little like Eren but it seems like she isn't.

-One aspect that didn't quite make sense to me is how some "past titans" broke free from Ymir's absolute control.

Ymir loving Fritz presumably happened while she was favoured by him, but she was initially beat up as a slave, let some pigs run off deliberately because she thought they should be free, but after getting titan powers she decided to go back to Fritz as a slave instead of killing him? That logic seems strange, especially since we know now that she wasn't wronged. She actually did let the animals go.

Then she was obeying Zeke until Eren hugged her and said that she must have called him here - and we're alluded to this happening when Eren was sleeping under a tree once. But if that was the case, it'd be because she wanted freedom or something. If love was her driving force and reason to serve, she'd have no need to fight join Eren's fight against non-titans or have any qualms about Zeke (the current royal family representative as far as she's concerned) wanting to sterilise titans.

This love theme actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

-The bird wrapping the tail of the scarf around Mikasa's neck (as a symbol of Eren loving her/asking her to take care of herself) was missed by me initially. I thought it tried to pull the scarf away to say "forget about me", which didn't make sense. Only after reading things online and inspecting the scarf closely did I realise that the bird flipped the scarf tail around Mikasa to go from 1.5 loops to 2 loops, effectively wrapping it around her more.

-And Ackermans were supposed to be immune to memory manipulation, so "You got your memories back too, right? Of the times Eren came to see us." couldn't have happened.

That said, she had a vision unique to her where they had eloped to a cabin. Not sure if that's the substitute..

-I thought Marley pointing guns towards Eldians immediately after Eren died was hilarious. All Eren really managed to do was just even the playing field, though it's hard to imagine that 20% of humanity is an even match for Paradise Island when the former has such a technological advantage.

MFauli

Sun, 11-05-2023, 02:59 PM

What I still don't get: are we supposed to believe that Eren only acted/pretended all the stuff he did in the beginning of the show while in truth following his big plan? So when he says he sent that one titan to eat his mom inst9oc Bertholt, was young Eren's crying and wish to save her all fake? Did he pretend to be bad at using the gear during training camp? Did he pretend not to know that Annie is the female titan? And so on?

Buffalobiian

Sun, 11-05-2023, 07:14 PM

He doesn't pretend. He doesn't have a choice.

He can sit there in meta-space and think about his actions, but it's pre-determined, and regardless of what he remembers and regardless of his intentions going into the action, he'll always end up performing that action.

That's what how pre-determined futures work. You only think you have a choice, but if you saw the future happen, it will happen regardless of your intentions.

Future him also manipulates past him to arrive at the future he got to. Eren doesn't retain full memory of the future until he touched Historia's hand at that meeting. He just gets manipulated during periods of need then his memory gets wiped again once the important action is done.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 11-06-2023, 02:11 AM

Well that certainly was a...thorough, ending. Eren going for the Code Geass resolution. Followed by one grim fucking credit sequence.

And they used the solution I'd been suggesting since they introduced the euthanasia plan. "Just cure all the titans". No idea why that required killing 80% of the world first.

I'm glad they thought up something interesting for the final battle. Past Shifter Titans was interesting and still plausible.

Now gimme a sequel story lolWell they laid the groundwork for that. The kid walking into Eren's grave tree mirrors the tree Ymir became a Titan in.

So if they want to start the cycle all over again with kid with dog as Ymir and Eren as the space worm, they've set that up.

This love theme actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It's basically just there so Mikasa can resolve things. Seeing Mikasa kill Eren despite still loving him allows Ymir to kill Fritz in her mind.

I'm not sure whether it was that, or killing the worm, that cured everyone's titanitis.

DarthEnderX

Mon, 11-06-2023, 01:09 PM

I'm hearing that the anime ending is significantly different than the manga ending?

Mon, 11-06-2023, 04:30 PM

It's been a while. I was really hyped for this show, right?

And they used the solution I'd been suggesting since they introduced the euthanasia plan. "Just cure all the titans". No idea why that required killing 80% of the world first.

Eren wanted to kill most of the non-Paradis population in the world and also destroy their engineering and military capabilities so that after he was dead and the power of the Titans was destroyed, there would temporarily be no capability for a global war. The Titans were already almost getting outmoded as weapons of war, if all he did was erase Titans from existence, the Marleyan Empire just conquers and enslaves the rest of the world.

I'm hearing that the anime ending is significantly different than the manga ending?

A few lines were changed, most notably the omission of the infamous "Thank you, Eren, for becoming a mass murderer for our sakes" line. Instead, Armin now says he believes he and Eren will be together in hell for what they've done. The footprints Eren and Armin are sitting in were filled with water (and then blood) in the show.

The biggest change is in the credits montage. In the original manga ending, the series ends with Mikasa sitting by the tree. The stuff with the world moving on and the city being bombed was added in the volume release. Crucially, in the comic, it's unclear when the apocalyptic war is taking place - we see bombers and modern apartment buildings, but given that presumably all the engineering knowledge from the outside world survived and they were already in the 1940s or so (with exceptions like the impossibly advanced 3D Maneuvering Gear) it's entirely possible this was only a generation or two later. This maintains ambiguity over whether Eren's plan worked or not. It could be the "war of reprisal" he was worried about happened after all, or it could just be an unrelated conflict in humanity's endless cycle of war.

In the show, the city advances into some kind of futuristic sci-fi cityscape. This almost certainly means that the "war of reprisal" didn't happen and that it was just an inevitable global war, as it would presumably take centuries before they were able to live in the Blade Runner society. So for my read the show leans much heavier on "Eren and the gang of Paradis Island won at a heavy cost" rather than leaving it ambiguous.

What I still don't get: are we supposed to believe that Eren only acted/pretended all the stuff he did in the beginning of the show while in truth following his big plan? So when he says he sent that one titan to eat his mom inst9oc Bertholt, was young Eren's crying and wish to save her all fake? Did he pretend to be bad at using the gear during training camp? Did he pretend not to know that Annie is the female titan? And so on?

Eren can supposedly virtualize his memories, and "future memories" through the Paths, but this is not retroactive. He only obtained this ability when he touched Historia. It doesn't percolate backwards in time to earlier iterations of his consciousness.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-07-2023, 12:44 AM

Someone told me titanism didn't get cured in the manga?

MFauli

Tue, 11-07-2023, 12:58 AM

Eren can supposedly virtualize his memories, and "future memories" through the Paths, but this is not retroactive. He only obtained this ability when he touched Historia. It doesn't percolate backwards in time to earlier iterations of his consciousness.

Then how did he command that titan away from Bertholt?

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-07-2023, 01:02 AM

Then how did he command that titan away from Bertholt?Also, Bertholdt didn't need to survive. That titan would have just become the colossal titan instead.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 11-07-2023, 04:53 AM

Then how did he command that titan away from Bertholt?

He can manipulate actions of others to an extent. Eren talked Grisha into killing the royals for example.

Bertholdt needed to survive in that he needed to carry out the mission as Bertholdt. Zeke's mum becoming the new Colossal wouldn't have acted the same way as Bertholdt.

MFauli

Tue, 11-07-2023, 12:21 PM

. It doesn't percolate backwards in time to earlier iterations of his consciousness.

That is the part my question related to. Either young Eren was a masterful, sociopathic actor OR older Eren did influence his earlier consciousness.

DarthEnderX

Tue, 11-07-2023, 01:56 PM

Either young Eren was a masterful, sociopathic actor OR older Eren did influence his earlier consciousness.I assume the latter, with young Eren not being aware of it happening.

neflight86

Tue, 11-07-2023, 01:57 PM

Had to take a few days to process this one. This was pretty dense, lore-wise, and a lot of moving parts to reconcile if the story is to remain tight, and I think it overall did very well.

-One aspect that didn't quite make sense to me is how some "past titans" broke free from Ymir's absolute control.

Ymir loving Fritz presumably happened while she was favoured by him, but she was initially beat up as a slave, let some pigs run off deliberately because she thought they should be free, but after getting titan powers she decided to go back to Fritz as a slave instead of killing him? That logic seems strange, especially since we know now that she wasn't wronged. She actually did let the animals go.

Then she was obeying Zeke until Eren hugged her and said that she must have called him here - and we're alluded to this happening when Eren was sleeping under a tree once. But if that was the case, it'd be because she wanted freedom or something. If love was her driving force and reason to serve, she'd have no need to fight join Eren's fight against non-titans or have any qualms about Zeke (the current royal family representative as far as she's concerned) wanting to sterilise titans.

This love theme actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I think Zeke and Armin had to beg them to help them instead in the paths. I expect they were in the same existential daze Zeke was in.

That's part of what I love about AoT. It makes this story feel so human to me. Humans are rational actors, but sometimes they act on internal rationale that won't make sense to anyone else; just like real broken people. It would be hard to justify to myself if I hadn't seen similar Stockholm-style patterns of abuse before in life and other outlandish acts that 'made sense to them', like staying in abusive relationships or convincing yourself that any attention is just as good as affection, ect... A slave knew nothing but slavery (not sure how old she was when the village was taken) and she also seemed to value 'freedom' by letting the pigs out; or she wanted the attention of the king... or she is touched.

The lack of clear cut answer is no doubt infuriating to some, but I like it being open to interpretation as the foundation of the rest of the story is easy enough to fill in the gaps myself.

As for obeying royals, I believe it was trying to keep her love of Fritz alive by proxy until she met Eren who resonated with her desire for connection/freedom, as Zeke put it.

-And Ackermans were supposed to be immune to memory manipulation, so "You got your memories back too, right? Of the times Eren came to see us." couldn't have happened.

Fair point. I would guess that the actual founding titan's (Ymir herself) powers can overcome that limitation. This was the first time the show suggested Ackermans could not turn into Titans after the blue mist. Good thing Kenny didn't waste that syrenge, but how would they know for sure if they never tested it?

What I still don't get: are we supposed to believe that Eren only acted/pretended all the stuff he did in the beginning of the show while in truth following his big plan? So when he says he sent that one titan to eat his mom inst9oc Bertholt, was young Eren's crying and wish to save her all fake? Did he pretend to be bad at using the gear during training camp? Did he pretend not to know that Annie is the female titan? And so on?

The show is fairly clear in that the transmission of commands back in time had to be done when he finally made contact with Zeke as a titan (travelling through time to send memories or interfere with Grisha). Contact with Historia seemed to work different as she was not a titan; that let him more freely receive memories, so he didn't get the memories he 'needed' to transform into Jagerest Eren until the medal ceremony at the earliest. In short, he didn't have future memories of him ending the world until the medal ceremony in season 3. From there I suspect he began trying to subverting the future he saw during the 4 year intermission until he accepted them as immutable and kind of gave up on trying and living, by the looks of it. He admitted that having time meld together (past present,future) like that essentially short circuited his mind. If he's a victim of anything, and is worthy of any sympathy, it's for that.

And they used the solution I'd been suggesting since they introduced the euthanasia plan. "Just cure all the titans". No idea why that required killing 80% of the world first.
...
I'm not sure whether it was that, or killing the worm, that cured everyone's titanitis.

I was confused about this as well. Some online breakdowns suggested that it was, in reality, Ymir's satisfaction that cured the Titan affliction, and that her 'hanging on' to Fritz's command due to her misguided love or longing is what effectively trapped all of her biological offspring via the paths. In reality, that is fairly haunting as well that no one (eldian) who has died thus far has been allowed to pass on from... whatever plane of existence the paths represent until Ymir decided to let go. She had the kill switch the whole time, it seems. That's why she's in the background of Eren's broken tooth hole when Mikasa gives him the too-close haircut.

Or, it could have something to do with drawing that worm thing out of the body and killing the founding titan then?

It's basically just there so Mikasa can resolve things. Seeing Mikasa kill Eren despite still loving him allows Ymir to kill Fritz in her mind.

I'm not sure whether it was that, or killing the worm, that cured everyone's titanitis.

...oops, looks like you already said what I was getting at.

Eren wanted to kill most of the non-Paradis population in the world and also destroy their engineering and military capabilities so that after he was dead and the power of the Titans was destroyed, there would temporarily be no capability for a global war. The Titans were already almost getting outmoded as weapons of war, if all he did was erase Titans from existence, the Marleyan Empire just conquers and enslaves the rest of the world.

Excellent point. Thanks for bringing it up. While it obviously doesn't glorify or excuse what he did, there was some reasoning behind it. How that mutual fear played out suggests this entire story is predicated on people having immense power without the means to properly gauge when and how to use it, as humans are such flawed creatures. Eren's an idiot, and he admits as much, but we wouldn't likely be much better in the same position.
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Dense. Rich. Beautiful in themes and storytelling. Even the heavy-handed hokey bits come off as earnest and endearing. Overall, a wonderful, unique, and singular series, and anime is a richer medium with it firmly in the pantheon of greats. I wonder if I’ll ever see another series this effecting again? I’d like that very much.