Anime: Current versus Past.

[Dark Dragon]

Every time there's a preview for the new season of anime, there's someone in the thread complaining how this season is even worse than the last.

I'm curious if everyone feels this way, or is this the feelings of a few.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm one of those people that don't like a lot of things, and have always been that way. By and large, I've found no season whose content I was aware of to be overwhelmingly good, but there have definitely been gems here and there, and I see no sign of that trend halting. For instance, this season BTOOOM! makes me want to vomit, I find myself doing a lot of eye rolling while watching Psycho Pass, and I can't seem to get into a lot of the other shows for some reason. But Shin Sekai Yori is promising to be one of the all-time greats for me, and I'm enjoying Chu2Koi, in no small part because of how my own childhood was. Most seasons go like that for me, plus or minus the presence of an excellent show.

[MFauli]

Animation quality/production value has become better. Everything else worse.

I won´t compare quantity of quality, because that might paint a fales impression, caused by nostalgia. However, what´s missing in current days´ anime is that inspirational spark. I guess that is also part of becoming older, but I´ve simply seen soooo much ... I´m tired of seeing conceptual retreats, only executed in a worse manner than before.

My favorite time of anime was during those seasons when Monster, Death Note, Claymore or pre-timeskip Naruto were released. There was so much creativity, done well, so much feel-able quality, oozing through the air.
What´s happening now? Shows like BTOOOM or Sword Art Online, that arrive with an awesome sounding premise, only to turn out weird or subpar or plain disappointing. FFS, what was it with Eureka Seven: Astral Ocean? I´m not finished yet, but why would you base it in the real world for so many episodes, make it so ... dry, when the previous Eureka Seven was such a gorgeous anime, also thanks to its fantasy setting. And fuck ups like this keep happening.

That´s of course leaving all MOE aside. sigh

When the highest quality anime has become a remake of an existing anime, you just know anime has become worse.

[Kraco]

There are a few numerical factors condemning anime of today compared to the older times, factors that ultimately have resulted in fewer shows. Less shows means less variation as well, and less risks taken. This is ultimately due to the market situation which will only continue to get worse.

However, I still voted No, because I think most of my perception is a result of having seen too much already. In the beginning everything was shiny and new and felt so refreshing. Even generic harem seemed jolly good. However, I'm still pretty tolerant, even if I drop shows a lot as well. I like the better video and audio today as well. Some shows really benefitted from modern technology and might have been mediocre if animated in the past. Besides, I like modern character design more than the old styles (which explains why I can watch some moeblob shows as well).

Times change, but in the end it's just entertainment.

[shinta|hikari]

There are always good and bad shows per season. There are always disappointments and pleasant surprises each time. The quality varies each season, but in general the downward trend is a mere illusion.

People tend to clump together all the great shows they have watched as "old" anime, and usually forget that those don't belong to one season. Most of the time, the masterpieces are seasons apart. This grouping makes people think that each new season is lacking quality, when in fact the seasons where the greats were aired probably also had a similar average quality across all the shows aired.

I still add shows to the masterpiece and excellent lists of my anime archive, so I am quite sure there is no general quality decline. In fact, some of the best shows I have seen aired in the past few years.

I also agree with Kraco's point that saturation deteriorates the overall experience. I should know, having watched way too much anime for my own good (click my sig if in doubt). I can pretty much predict what will happen for 90% of the shows I am currently watching, which is why I don't post nearly as much in the anime threads as before.

[Inazuma]

Well - No one expects anything as good as Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Alchemist or Evangelion anymore.

So I voted Yes

[Kraco]

Well - No one expects anything as good as Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Alchemist or Evangelion anymore.


Bah. I considered the new FMA much better than the old one.

[Ryllharu]

There was crap anime then, there's crap anime now. There was occasional masterpieces then, there are occasional masterpieces now.

Nothing has changed, except maybe the improvement of quality of the animation itself (but that's up for debate too...Hayate no Gotoku)

Here's what I said the last time this came up:

[That anime used to be much better is] just selective memory and nostalgia. I really loathe statements like this.

Everyone remembers Bebop, Trigun, and Card Captor Sakura from Spring of 1998. But how many people remember Lost Universe? Brain Powerd? Neoranga? Android Ana Maico 2010? None of those?

Overall quality hasn't dropped. Everyone just remembers the gems and forgets all the mediocre series and the cruft.

[David75]

In recent times, Usagi Drop, Fate Zero, Kokoro Connect, Natsuyuki Rendez-vous and other shows have been nice in my opinion. So I would not say it's getting worse. As Kraco pointed out, I could name those shows average only because I'm so used to watching anime it does not recreate me in the same way as it did when I was in the discovery phase.

This season for example, I decided to follow a lot more shows and I'm able to enjoy Ixion Saga... Normally I would not even read the second line of the synopsis for such a show. But all in all, I really had good laughs and enjoyed some eps. Others I would rather have skipped. But overall the net result is positive.

Just open your minds and try for yourself instead of being overly influenced by other people opinions. Watch at least 2 eps from a show if the synopsis isn't totally out of your interests.

[Y]

The ceiling for quality is lower and so is the floor. The rise of moe and creepy pedophile shows means this is pretty much the worst decade of Japanese animation ever.

[Animeniax]

I used to love anime but as the medium matured (denatured more like) I grew weary of it. The stories got stale and the characters got repetitive, following archetypes that no longer make sense or hold any appeal. Add in the reduced budgets and failures of some of the more prominent anime studios and what once set anime apart (the artistry and story-telling) is so cookie cutter these days that I stopped watching.

Japanese animation mirrors Japanese culture in that it has a fairly limited scope and close-minded view of the world, even with the internet and globalization. Look at J-dramas, they have fallen by the wayside to more compelling and interesting shows out of Korea. When they actually handle interesting and socially relevant subjects, they handle it in such a clinical and stale way to make them boring and forgettable.

[Kraco]

Japanese animation mirrors Japanese culture in that it has a fairly limited scope and close-minded view of the world, even with the internet and globalization.

I certainly wouldn't mind if they adapted more foreign works into anime. But have they done that at all after the World Masterpieces Theatre series from the 80's?

[Animeniax]

I certainly wouldn't mind if they adapted more foreign works into anime. But have they done that at all after the World Masterpieces Theatre series from the 80's?

I don't know about direct adaptations being an answer, I meant more along the lines of diversifying their stories and characters by adopting a broader worldview and changing their mindset, something that will take years if it's even possible at all. That'd be asking a lot and would mean a significantly changed Japan. A lot of the attraction people have for their pop culture derives from the insular nature of Japanese society. If you change that society, people might not like what comes with it as far as pop culture interests.

[Archangel]

Most people who complain on how better anime used to be base that on the best selection of vintage series that were recommended to them, unaware of all the shit that also aired in between. Even statements from oldies who watched it live are contaminated by nostalgia so you shouldn't take them at face value either.

That said, the rise of moe hasn't helped the issue especially when the western audiences are obviously more a fan of the shounen genre. On a personal note i hate that shit too, but if anything it's been getting better recently.

Psycho pass is an example of the industry testing the waters to see if there's still room for inovation, it's selling fairly well too so there's that.

[Y]

Japanese animation mirrors Japanese culture in that it has a fairly limited scope and close-minded view of the world, even with the internet and globalization.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Buffalobiian]

I do think subject matter explored in anime has changed over the years, so if you're a fan of one but not another.. you may interpret this as a drop in quality. Since I enjoy just about everything just fine, that doesn't seem to be apparent to me.

If one was to argue that there were more innovative/landmark shows in the past than present.. then that would be something I might agree with more.

[MFauli]

Psycho pass is an example of the industry testing the waters to see if there's still room for inovation, it's selling fairly well too so there's that.

But Psycho-Pass is also 100% unremarkable. (Mind you, I´ve only watched the first episode so far ...). Where are those anime that are both innovative/creative AND hook you from the very first minute on? I´m not going to pretend like anime today is NOT worse than in the past. Might be an unpopular opinion here on this board, but I stay with my view of things: It´s been getting worse.

Or let me detail this statement a bit: Those big, earth-shattering, everyone-needs-to-go-watch-it! anime are disappearing. Instead, a lot of different niches are appearing. Niches that offer quality anime to a specific, very limited audience. Since Psycho-Pass has been mentioned ... that reminds me of Nighthead in terms of appeal, and Nighthead, rightfully so, was never ranked as top-tier quality. Was it released today (with up-to-date animation), those of you denying the worsening of modern anime would praise it as proof for your side of things.
Same with Shin Sekai Yori. While it is one of the better shows NOW, it´s just a poor man´s Bokurano/Noein compared to those older anime.

While I already admitted to nostalgia being at play, partly, you guys took the different approach and lowered your standard.

[shinta|hikari]

Some of my all time favorites aired in the last 6 (it is quite evenly spread out) years, all while I was simultaneously watching the earth-shattering classics that you mentioned, so no, I didn't lower my standard. I rate them as soon as I watch them by the way, so nostalgia doesn't have room to seep in.

[darkshadow]

Anime sucks.

[Y]

Some of my all time favorites aired in the last 6 (it is quite evenly spread out) years, all while I was simultaneously watching the earth-shattering classics that you mentioned, so no, I didn't lower my standard. I rate them as soon as I watch them by the way, so nostalgia doesn't have room to seep in.

Prosecution rests, Your Honor.

[Animeniax]

Some of my all time favorites aired in the last 6 (it is quite evenly spread out) years, all while I was simultaneously watching the earth-shattering classics that you mentioned, so no, I didn't lower my standard. I rate them as soon as I watch them by the way, so nostalgia doesn't have room to seep in.

Yes but had you seen those earth-shattering classics when they were released, when they were light-years ahead of their time, I think you'd see a difference between how great those were and how good the current stuff is. I think the true test will be in another 10-15 years, will you remember the current anime the way people remember the classics even 30 years later?

[shinta|hikari]

My argument is that those classics aren't really light years ahead of their time. Nostalgia makes them appear to be so. They were great, but so are some of the new shows of recent.

I also think that the overall change in genre focus from action to slice of life is affecting how people view quality. People who love action tend to dislike slice of life stories after all.

[Y]

I can appreciate a great many things in a variety of settings and themes. One of my favorite episodes in Haruhi is the one where Kyon goes and gets a heater the whole episode. I love Friday Night Lights. This doesn't make anime for loser pedophiles any better.

[Xelbair]

1) remove nostalgia-glasses
2) take into account that you've been probably watching only good shows from back then, while skipping all crap
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

same thing as with music industry - we keep saying that music got worse etc etc but in fact we only remember really good bands from the past and compare them to generic crap.

[Archangel]

same thing as with music industry - we keep saying that music got worse etc etc but in fact we only remember really good bands from the past and compare them to generic crap.

Only difference is that what was popular then was the good music, while what's popular now is the image they're selling.

[DarthEnderX]

I think the question is pretty misleading.

Worse now then WHEN exactly? Each person's "nostalgic" period of anime is going to be different.


Bah. I considered the new FMA much better than the old one.I consider the parts that are canon to be better in BOTH series.

The parts of the original that are before the series went off into filler handle those portions much better than Brotherhood, because Brotherhood tends to skim through those early parts.

Once you get to the part of the series where the original stopped following the manga, Brotherhood is better.

The second half of the original series is still good, but I prefer Brotherhood's progression and conclusion.

I'm always wishing I could merge the first half of the original series and the second two thirds of Brotherhood into one superseries.


Yes but had you seen those earth-shattering classics when they were released, when they were light-years ahead of their time, I think you'd see a difference between how great those were and how good the current stuff is.I never really understood this argument and people love to make it all the time.

That somehow, something is quantifiably better just because everything around it was terrible.

I never followed that reasoning. Things that want to be considered great should be measured up against everything else that is considered great, not against whatever it happened to be up against at the time.

I mean, I understand the idea of "giving something it's due for doing something that had never been done before" but just because something did something unique doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it better.

[Kraco]

Yes but had you seen those earth-shattering classics when they were released, when they were light-years ahead of their time, I think you'd see a difference between how great those were and how good the current stuff is.


I never followed that reasoning. Things that want to be considered great should be measured up against everything else that is considered great, not against whatever it happened to be up against at the time.

I mean, I understand the idea of "giving something it's due for doing something that had never been done before" but just because something did something unique doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it better.

Yeah, I could call this the big Gilgamesh fallacy: That the original must always be better than those that followed. It would indicate people don't ever learn from past works and can't develop any existing ideas further. That is, of course, utterly ridiculous. Naturally it can be said that first time seeing a totally novel idea would make it taste that much better, but such an argument would take us to a purely subjective area. Besides, it's not like the usually named anime classics would be treasure chests of unique ideas in the first place. They were simply shows that worked exceptionally well, but nothing has prevented later shows to work well either.

[Animeniax]

I never really understood this argument and people love to make it all the time.

That somehow, something is quantifiably better just because everything around it was terrible.

I never followed that reasoning. Things that want to be considered great should be measured up against everything else that is considered great, not against whatever it happened to be up against at the time.

I mean, I understand the idea of "giving something it's due for doing something that had never been done before" but just because something did something unique doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it better.

They make it a lot because it's a valid argument. Put up the best of the heyday of anime against the best of recent anime and there's no contest. There's a reason some will be considered classics of all time. In recent anime, there really isn't any that will be remembered even 10 years from now except for nostalgia. Meanwhile, the classics will hold nostalgia as well as intrinsic appeal.


Yeah, I could call this the big Gilgamesh fallacy: That the original must always be better than those that followed. It would indicate people don't ever learn from past works and can't develop any existing ideas further. That is, of course, utterly ridiculous. Naturally it can be said that first time seeing a totally novel idea would make it taste that much better, but such an argument would take us to a purely subjective area. Besides, it's not like the usually named anime classics would be treasure chests of unique ideas in the first place. They were simply shows that worked exceptionally well, but nothing has prevented later shows to work well either.We can look at Hollywood movies to prove it is no fallacy. Originality in a medium goes a long way to making it memorable and beloved, and we do tend to hate those that copy or derive material from them. And it's not just the ideas, it's the execution, the production values, and a certain "I don't know what" that captured our imaginations and led us to explore further that we love. Maybe we're just getting older and more cynical though, so our opinion of modern media just reflects that.

[Kraco]

Yeah, but those are two different things. Something can be a classic because it happened to be the first one to execute something new successfully enough, including making something more widely known. But it's a different thing whether it's really so exceptional if compared objectively to others that came later. If you took some random joe from the streets who has never seen any anime or heard any hype and sat him down to watch randomly old classics and good new shows with their shiny HD graphics and clear audio, would he think similarly?

Besides, those classics are only classics in the minds of those who saw them a long time ago or younger folks who have been conditioned by the older people repeating endlessly how great they are. If you look at, for example, the infamous Japanese polls that Sankaku translates, those classics are nearly absent. They are forgotten among the primary anime audience.

So, yeah, you are both right and wrong. Most current shows will be forgotten soon enough, but in fact younger people have already forgotten those that we might call classics.

[MFauli]

You make it sound like a popularity contest, Kraco.
Classic or not is not defined by popularity. Otherwise all (more or less) shallow shounen anime would trump all the rest.

Maybe I´m overestimating "younger" people, but when I started watching anime, I entered as a Pokemon/Dragon Ball-fan. I proceeded to watch Naruto (with Japanese voices and English subtitles). And when the time was ripe, I was looking for the good stuff. Meaning, I turned towards already released classics - and I loved them, despite not having watched them when they were originally released.

And unless I´m a special case (I´m not), new anime-fans will at some point ask for those same classics that I got recommended many years ago. And neither BTOOOM nor Psycho-Pass nor Eureka Seven: AO will be along those.

But to give some perspective: There is one genre of anime that´s kinda experiencing a rise in overall quality, which is romantic/comedy/drama/slice of life, whatever you call it.

[Y]

1) remove nostalgia-glasses
2) take into account that you've been probably watching only good shows from back then, while skipping all crap
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

same thing as with music industry - we keep saying that music got worse etc etc but in fact we only remember really good bands from the past and compare them to generic crap.

It's actually objective fact that pop music, in all genres, is becoming more melodically homogenous and restrictive. That being said, it's ridiculous to pretend like despite a wide variety of quality it's impossible to say that the industry is improving or getting worse, just because there are both good and bad shows. Look at the rise of American television, where the last few decades have seen an absurd improvement in the quality of writing and production values of cable shows. You just can't say that it's the same as it's always been, because it's manifestly not.

[Animeniax]

It's actually objective fact that pop music, in all genres, is becoming more melodically homogenous and restrictive. That being said, it's ridiculous to pretend like despite a wide variety of quality it's impossible to say that the industry is improving or getting worse, just because there are both good and bad shows. Look at the rise of American television, where the last few decades have seen an absurd improvement in the quality of writing and production values of cable shows. You just can't say that it's the same as it's always been, because it's manifestly not.

I've always contended that certain music is popular and mainstream because it resonates with so many people on a cerebral level, not because people are sheep and just like what is cool, though there is a lot of that going on. I think music at it's core is a finite language that only has so much range. The more we explore it, the more we hit its boundaries and tend back towards the middle. I think Japanese anime is similar in that it is bounded by the Japanese fan base and their very limited worldview.

[Dark Dragon]

Worse now then WHEN exactly? Each person's "nostalgic" period of anime is going to be different.


I didn't want to make the question too complicated. In general, we're comparing the current generation of moe of the past 5-6 years to the late 1990's and early 2000's when most people started to become interested in anime.

Of course everyone is going to have a favorite from different periods of time. However, it's safe to assume that most of the people here got interested in anime around the time when DBZ was very popular internationally and stayed interested in anime cultures because they liked the environment.

You can then argue that people who are not happy with the current quality of anime might not have ever become interested at all in the sub-culture if the current environment existed during the time when they started to take interest in anime. Then it comes down to a question of whether it is a change in taste, a decrease in general quality regardless of technology (writing, art style), or a combination of multiple factors.

[DarthEnderX]

They make it a lot because it's a valid argument. Put up the best of the heyday of anime against the best of recent anime and there's no contest.That's not even remotely the argument you were making though.

You said the older stuff was better BECAUSE it was better than anything else at the time. Not because it's better than what there is now.

If you want to say stuff then is better than stuff now, that's one thing, you said stuff then was better just because it was better than what else there was then.

Which doesn't even make sense when you think about it. Because if the stuff that was good then is better because everything else then was bad, why does everything you think is better come from that period.



We can look at Hollywood movies to prove it is no fallacy. Originality in a medium goes a long way to making it memorable and beloved, and we do tend to hate those that copy or derive material from them.Memorable and beloved is not the same thing as better.


Maybe I´m overestimating "younger" people, but when I started watching anime, I entered as a Pokemon/Dragon Ball-fan. I proceeded to watch Naruto (with Japanese voices and English subtitles). And when the time was ripe, I was looking for the good stuff.I'm 33, and I still consider Naruto to be "the good stuff". When it's not doing filler anyway.

[Animeniax]

Sorry I thought from what I posted the implication would be clear that the older stuff was better than what preceded it, better than its own contemporaries, and better than what came after. Saying it was ahead of its time is just one justification for why it is better. When something is memorable and beloved, it registers with you in a way that the mediocre cannot. It may not be necessarily better in other terms (technical, realistic, etc), but "better" is entirely subjective anyway.

[DarthEnderX]

Sorry I thought from what I posted the implication would be clear that the older stuff was better than what preceded it, better than its own contemporaries, and better than what came after.Fair enough.

I'm merely disagreeing with the notion that if we'd watched something "at the time" we'd realize how great it actually is. That's not greatness, that's nostalgia. If something is truly great, it will always be great, even to someone viewing it for the first time years later.

In reality, more often the opposite is true. Things that are truly great and stand the test of time are often not appreciated when they are new.

For example Citizen Kane, a popular "greatest movie of all time" these days, wasn't very popular when it came out.



But I digress. The point is, the answer to this question depends entirely on what the OP considers to be "the past".

For example, One Piece is probably my favorite thing in anime, and has been almost as long as I've been watching it, which is almost as long as I've been a fansub watcher.

So depending on whether the OP considers "the past" to be over 10 years ago or not, my opinion hasn't really changed at all in the past decade.

[Xelbair]

I just pointed out that we tend to remember good shows of the past, and notice the bad shows of the present(because there are always more bad shows than good ones), add nostalgia glasses to that and you've got 'XXX industry is getting worse'.

Of course you can point out periods when it gets really better or really worse - just as in every statistical analysis.

We could easily test that - we need few guys who have too much free time and could rewatch 1-2 prominent series from each season and grade them after watching them. Then we could do the graph with title(chronologically) on X axis, grade on Y axis.
Of course error will be big due to small pool of data...

[Buffalobiian]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3417/890691455539b9e7c4ffb.jpg

In both male and female cases, my favourite art style was between late 80s and throughout the 90s. It's got that rawness to it that gives the art both power and beauty/grace when required.

Before that, the art was a bit rough and unrefined. The current art is very clean, but sometimes they can appear a bit too cookie-cutter. Perhaps use of CGI means more "stock templates" are used.

I'm using the timeframes very generally of course - it's all progressive. Early 2000s actually fits in quite well to the above description too.


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7048/89075646720fcd5aba30b.jpg
Source. (http://www.dannychoo.com/en/post/26954/Anime+Through+The+Ages.html)

[Kraco]

In both male and female cases, my favourite art style was between late 80s and throughout the 90s. It's got that rawness to it that gives the art both power and beauty/grace when required.

I like the style that started to appear in very late 90's and refined during 00's. I do acknowledge it has lost some of the edge and personality that was present much more in your preferred time, but I guess I like the cleanliness and... though I don't know if I should admit it, but I also like some of the increasing modern moe style in the art. I don't have such a dim view of the increasing use of computer aided drawing, as long as the 2D origins remain true and it's not just flattened, cel shaded 3D CGI. If it looks cookie-cutter, I believe it's more due to the flaws of the character designer (yes, that's you, Tony Taka) and the director. Not to mention the ever present budget constraints that modern technology has alleviated in some ways, made worse in others because I reckon you can do more with less, but only quantity, not quality.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, I did mean "cookie cutter" in a very liberal sense. I still greatly enjoy my anime. (clarification: the last sentence in my previous post refers to the early 2000s sharing the late 90's look, not the 2010. I thought this clarification would be required because I gave two descriptions prior, making it unclear which one I was referring to).

On that thought, was the change in art between Naruto vs Shippuuden one that was present in the manga, or just an anime thing? I greatly enjoyed the look of the original run more than the post-timeskip look.

Bones handled the new HxH pretty well. The old run was still more detailed, but the new version makes up for it with better animation.

And yeah, I really liked Tony Taka's work until I realised that I only needed to see a handful (or one, really) to have seen them all. Then I just liked it.