Shin Sekai Yori

[Buffalobiian]

http://i.imgur.com/CBg7a.jpg

Alternative title:
Shinsekai Yori (Japanese)
新世界より (Japanese)
From the New World

Plot Summary: In the future Japan has become a fractured country, and small towns now exist. The rulers of this world have the cursed power of Telekinesis. When an incident occurs, 5 children come to realize the world is not as it seems, and learn the bloody history behind this world. These 5 children unite and help the world as it falls into a downward spiral of chaos. -ANN




Hadena - Episode 01 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=356983)
Commie - Episode 01 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=357123)

[Belial]

The first episode seems interesting, defiantly going to keep watching

[shinta|hikari]

This was a lot darker and more complex than I thought it was going to be. This is not the type of show that I get excited to watch every week, but the type that I rate very highly once I manage to finish it.

[MFauli]

That was surprisingly ... awesome.

Almost didn´t give it a try when I saw the little girl in the picture above, but I´m glad I gave it a chance. The way the parents keep secrets from their children is extremely scary, somehow.

I see the potential for greatness on par with Bokurano. Let´s see how it turns out.

[Kraco]

Quite interesting and definitely darker and more atmospheric than I was expecting. I like how the whole culture and way of life pretty much changed. It was also a better change than in something like Psyren, because a destroyed apocalyptic world is nothing but a destroyed apocalyptic world, no matter how it was born. But here were have people who have lived for generations under these rules and laws and know nothing better (or different).

I wonder what the fiends are. If kids without any or with too weak psychic powers are killed, it would seem strange just outside of the villages, behind some robes would live humans without any powers. Are they people that mutated senseless? Or simply some beasts that roam there to ensure obedience? The copycats are obviously controlled by those in power.

I watched UTW's version, btw: Episode 1 - UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=357231)

[Xelbair]

The story about Akki... what if it is the other way around? what if THEY are the Akki - the ones with late-bloomed power get exiled and get drunk on power(From the looks of it the purification ritual actually weakens their power) and they keep rampaging.

[David75]

First scene was well introduced and was quite gory in a not too graphical way despite the realuty of it. I guess angles and scene cut was done properly.
Then we get to the rest of the ep that didn't feel as good as we were in child fears territory, even if there's a darker reality confirmed by the parents.
I will watch ep 2 for sure. Since this is only an introduction, I can't just get stuck on that "child's fear" feeling.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 02 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=359154)

[MFauli]

Still extremely hard to grasp what this show actually is about. Some weird combination of Ghibli-movies, Mushishi and Bokurano. Which isn´t a bad thing.

[David75]

I can't decide whether that cat is controlled by the school officials, or if it's an after effect of not being able to control your powers. Like you develop them in the wrong way and it backfires that way.

With the synopsis pic and the way the MC is interested/cares in/for QueerRats, I guess they'll play an important role in the show. Like the MC being saved from the cat by a special link with the QueerRats. Side effect would be she has to live outside of the safe limits (outside the rope) as an outcast. Yet she will probably be the one to stabilize the force... I mean make this fucked up world better by stopping the killing of so many innocents.
But it might be too easy.

[animus]

The vibe this show gives off reminds me a little of Kamisama Dolls.

[Ryllharu]

The narration is the most unnerving part.

At first Endou Aya (SkyRaker in Accel World, Sheryl Nome of Macross, Yurika in Apollon) narrating sounded just like a generic narrator describing the world, but at the end of the second episode, they made it abundantly clear that she was one of the five kids of group one. Not Maria, so it has to be Saki.

Moreover, they blatantly told us that Maria will go berserk sooner or later and kill dozens if not hundreds of people. So now we have to look forward to the how and the why.

[Kraco]

Are QueerRats normal people who were mutated by those with psychic powers into weak creatures?

The opening scene of thise episode also affirmed that while the world developed a society stabile on the surface, it's no doubt withering away. We don't know how many children are pruned due to not awakening to powers, but I suspect it's a lot, and they further remove those not developing strongly enough despite awakening. It's not really a situation that would encourage population growth, plus I reckon lots of crimes are also punishable by death (or whatever else, but nonetheless removing the people from the psychic gene pool).

It's nicely successful how it's depicted these kids are living "happily" without realising how twisted their world is.

[shinta|hikari]

Excellent show so far. It has both light hearted and foreboding elements, and it is the smooth mingling of both that set the perfect atmosphere for the story and world this show is trying to unravel.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 03 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=361754)

[Kraco]

No wonder they were told people encountering evil minoshiro wind up dead: I doubt the secretive society they live in wants just about anybody encountering a random creature in the forest to learn everything about the distant past. So, curiosity will kill the cat...

Helluva lot of information, though, inside a single small entity.

[Buffalobiian]

I wondered if the librarian would have had the means to kill Saki if it chose to. I have a feeling it could (or could summon something that could), but decided that killing humans wasn't beneficial.

I heard the number, and thought that it wasn't that big, but then calculated backwards to find it's 980 000 x 1TB HDDs worth of text. Now that's a fair bit. It mentioned that it held all texts within that holographic body, right? Do all other librarians hold a copy, or are they in charge of various other types of archives? (pictures, video footage etc)

A wandering terminal makes no sense either, so I'm keen for an explanation. I was expecting this episode to be as dark as the previous two, but being unexpectedly light isn't a bad thing in this case.

(What happened to "not staying out at night or the copycat gets you"? The entire time they sat talking around the fire, I kept thinking "wtf are you doing people?? get inside a tent..")

[Kraco]

I heard the number, and thought that it wasn't that big, but then calculated backwards to find it's 980 000 x 1TB HDDs worth of text. Now that's a fair bit. It mentioned that it held all texts within that holographic body, right? Do all other librarians hold a copy, or are they in charge of various other types of archives? (pictures, video footage etc)

I'd at this point believe texts or writings meant more like books or works in this case. Non-fiction, and even many fiction, books have used plenty of illustrations since ancient times. It would make little sense thus to separate them. Considering the amount of data, I reckon some videos could be included as well. After all, plain text takes very little space, and it can even be further compressed for digital storage.

[David75]

Since there's some tech involved, that world could be a virtual reality of some sort.

[animus]

The anime's awfully cryptic and confusing... but I like it.

[Lucifus]

Absolutely epic! Favorite show of the season.

Cryptic, but hopefully we'll be learning a great deal more next episode.

[Ryllharu]

I am greatly amused that the campsite rice cooker has remained completely unchanged despite the total collapse of civilization, nearly 600 years of tyranny, and another 400 years of whatever this governance system is. They could have at least made it an unpainted bamboo one, but it appears like a black lacquered wood one (admittedly probably bamboo) with a steel wire handle!

edit:
It's weird that it is the only refined metal we've seen. Everything else is so much more organically designed. See for yourself at 11:37 if you missed it.

I also finally realized another issue. Saki caught onto it, but didn't take it to full conclusion. If the minoshiro hypnotized them as a defense mechanism and algorithm installed by whoever... Saki noticed that it was the same as the time at the temple during the ceremony that brings her to adulthood, when she deliberately sacrificed her power. But if that was only hypnotism, they haven't lost any of their power. They've just been tricked into thinking they have, along with everyone else in the village.

[David75]

My guess is that the rite of passage tries to hypnotize children into weakening their powers for their own safety as they probably do not have the control needed to supress the cat that would kill them. Said cat created by their own power. Or maybe that cat is just attracted to weak (as in control) cantus users that release too much uncontrolled cantus.

You noticed the metal, I noticed the glasses. Red/pink glass sunglasses, with complex form perfectly adapted to her face. Seems to me it requires some tech to manufacture those. More oever, they're not your traditionnal (and useless if not dangerous for the eyes) shade sunglasses, they seem to specifically filter part of the light spectrum, like UV sunglasses...

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 04 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=364440)


-------------------------------











So the copycat (whether it really exists or not) is really working for the school after all (or whatever the parent organization of the school is). I couldn't keep up with the talk about the different syndromes, but I'm just going to guess the QueerRats are one of them. As some of humanity gained superhuman abilities.. a reciprocal number degenerated?

[Kraco]

I wonder how long the hypnosis to seal cantus can last, especially under stressful conditions. Of course it's also a self-fulfilling condition, so for some it will only strenghten but likewise for some others it ought to be cancelled just as easily the first moment they try to use cantus unconsciously to defend themselves. I'm not even counting the fact a smarter person would realise after a while that it's impossible to actually seal such a bodily function with paper dolls and whatnot and thus it's nothing but a sham.

Still, a highly revealing episode in any case. Even the badass monk is just as much genetically modified and psychologically conditioned as the kids. I hope the libraries have had an ability to multiply by some means. It would be a pity if all the historical data is lost for good, even if they are a seed for distortions in the society.

I guess we will learn the identity of QueerRats in the coming eps. Whether they made themselves (a syndrome) or were made by one of the factions of old.

[Ryllharu]

If Saki's flashbacks were any indication, the Harmony school was quite a bit more involved than any of them have been conditioned to remember. Saki was witnessing an old man stabbing himself repeatedly and blaming her for doing it (whether she was or not), that set off her death feedback. She was the one having the most issues during the library's explanation. Being the last of the group, Saki's brainwashing is either more fresh, or not as settled and concrete as the others, so she's remembering it better.

I'm guessing that either Saki or Shun are going to break their hypnosis to save one of the others, as Saki did with the small queerrats. One of the others, Maria or Mamoru will probably have a mental breakdown and go berserk, breaking it then, and becoming the terror that society thinks they can be.

edit:
Culling the more violent and abuse-prone students is...surprisingly pragmatic. Disturbing, but effective. I still feel that far more disturbing is the complete pervasiveness of the brainwashing as a means of control. The kids could barely even remember who got removed, and forget a great deal of other things that happen. No minor events either, they're trained to just shrug them off as non-events, like a stone rolling off the side of a path.

[MFauli]

Aside of Saki´s super-annoying reaction to ... everything, it was another good episode.

The explanation-talk, however, was a bit too much for me to process. Saki and Shun were quick to assume they´re the descendants of the scientist-tribe. Was this confirmed? Considering the ominous nature of this anime, I´d rather guess their ancestors were those of the criminal tribe.

The monk was too powerful imo, though. And he reminded me to much of Hanzo from Hunter X Hunter, aesthetically.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm guessing that either Saki or Shun are going to break their hypnosis to save one of the others, as Saki did with the small queerrats.

Are you saying Saki broke the rules saving the queerrats? Or that Saki unlocked her hynosis there?


Aside of Saki´s super-annoying reaction to ... everything, it was another good episode.

The explanation-talk, however, was a bit too much for me to process. Saki and Shun were quick to assume they´re the descendants of the scientist-tribe. Was this confirmed?

Agreed about Saki's reactions, and no.. it wasn't confirmed as far as I remembered. For someone seeking information, they pretty much convinced the Terminal that they wouldn't accept anything but that option. If we assume the terminal is telling the truth.. then the science people were the ones developing the control technique... with makes sense for them to be the precedents of the Harmony Village.

[Ryllharu]

She broke the rules when she saved the queerrats, I agree.

What I meant was that Saki, or Shun, will likely unlock their hypnosis and come to their full powers when one of the someone of their group is in severe danger. A similar situation of near death.

Specifically, I would guess that it would be either Shun or Saki saving the other one, since the budding romance vibes are thick between those two.

[Kraco]

Specifically, I would guess that it would be either Shun or Saki saving the other one, since the budding romance vibes are thick between those two.

I hope it goes that way. But, alas, it wouldn't surprise me either if this show got Shun killed, for example. You never know with this story (which is a good thing, of course).

[animus]

Best fucking show of the season. Even though they're completely different the possibility of character deaths reminds me of Bokurano.

[David75]

I wonder if Queerrats are in fact just "Humans without powers"

After all, the humans we follow have been genetically modified, they are under strong brainwashing and hypnosis.
What if what they see as Queerrats are in fact humans that totally look like themselves? Particularly the tall Queerrats?

They might also all be Queerrats, that would explain the cat being such a threat. Maybe the scientists decided the rats were the only race that had enough environmental adaptability, their social interaction right (to them), and they could manipulate them.
Or maybe they enhanced the race and transfered human "spirits" in Queerrats as Mankind was dying. That could explain how and why everyone sees themselves and others as humans, provided they are brainwashed.

I did not pay attention to the size of tree leafs compared to hands and such. Just to know wether they really are smaller than your average human being. If the cats shadow is an indication, I'd say 30% of your average human being.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 05 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=367121)




------------------------------
















Chaotic.

Did the monk die somewhere? We saw him blowing up stuff, then he was nowhere to be found.

[Ryllharu]

He was turned into a fine pink mist by the blowdog's bones. He blocked the explosion itself, but the bones (some of which also explode apparently) annihilated him.

The "bonobo" scene was peculiar. However, Saki resisted the urge after she realized it, and was able to pull Satoru out of it as well. She's definitely something special.

One of these two are going to have to undo their hypnosis, or they're never going to make it home.

This show's cliffhangers are quite irritating.

[animus]

This episode was a fuck load of peculiar. It just felt really off compared to the earlier episodes. The different colors and what not didn't help either.

[Buffalobiian]

It felt like everyone had longer hair in this episode, which made them more "adult".

[Kraco]

The animation itself was especially chaotic for this episode and took some artistic turns, and the plot didn't much help. Still, it was quite fitting in the sense that with the genetic and psychological programming these kids have, they must have been highly confused themselves. The bonobo scene was quite interesting indeed, but it also disturbed me because it was Satoru, not Shun... I'm glad it ended so quickly. I hope the next episode will reveal what happened to the others. They really need to get over the hypnosis.

[Buffalobiian]

It felt like everyone had longer hair in this episode, which made them more "adult".
The bonobo scene was quite interesting indeed, but it also disturbed me because it was Satoru, not Shun... I'm glad it ended so quickly.

You know, that makes so much more sense now.

The entire time I watched the screen thinking "Isn't that the brash guy?", but my logic kept correcting me with "No, it's the guy she likes. If she's paired with someone, it has to be him.

Now I know why his hair looks completely different and the rudish, haughty attitude he had when he thought of the haycatcher-egg plan.

edit: as well as why Saki yelled at him to shut up. I thought she cracked under pressure there..

[MFauli]

what did i just watch??

it felt like i missed an entire season of character development since last episode. was cool to see satoru become a badass, but really...chatoic all around.

oh, and satoru got robbed a fuck with the main heroine!

[Xelbair]

I finally got the idea with awakening their powers before school!

Their powers are sealed by hypnosis, and they undergo training for death feedback, if it doesn't work well they are eliminated... if it does they suddenly get their powers back. Of course each training session ends with hypnotism to make them forget about them.

Why eliminate them? my guess - because hypnosis isn't permanent.

[Buffalobiian]

I thought death feedback is genetically programmed? What's the training?

[Kraco]

Surely not. It doesn't sound like something you could genetically program. At most it works in the background, making the training possible. Lessening aggression, increasing empathy and regret, that sort of things.

[Buffalobiian]

If death feedback uses training/hypnosis, then it doesn't really make sense that humanoids like the Queerats (which the monk clearly doesn't recognise as humans) set off his feedback.

If the Cantis user doesn't believe they're harming a person, then the feedback shouldn't work if it's acquired through training.

[Kraco]

I don't think that's an area known very well even in RL. Some people are so delicate they can't even bear to see blood. Some can slay non-mammals no problem, but would feel uneasy if required to kill for example a cute bunny. Others can kill any animal without a second thought, yet would suffer mentally if they killed a fellow human in cold blood. Lastly there are those for whom human lives are inconsequential. However, I reckon it's compeletely unknown how much of this is due to anything genetic, how much to the surroundings, apart from obvious mental disorder cases. So, I'd say that no matter how much they were genetically manipulated, they still need thorough training and psychological conditioning.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 06 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=369768)


------------------------







Hmm, strangely enough Satoru hasn't suffered from Death Feedback by killing those foreign queerats. The last two episodes have been at a pretty breakneck pace. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, just different from what I was used to from watching the first 3 eps.

I'd hate for Satoru to die. I find him to be more interesting than Shin. He was kinda annoying when nothing happened in the village, but now that they're in a crisis he's showing how he can put his proactiveness to work.

As with previous weeks, the episode had me engrossed. The portrayal of squealer being more dangerous and shifty than you can read from his words alone was well done. I was actually entertaining the idea that the Robber Fly might have even teamed up with the Ground Spiders to kill off the human rulers - but then it would make no sense to have Squealer save them in the first place.

The most confusing part was that Saki didn't tell Satoru to reverse he own seal. Perhaps she thought he might lose his powers, or that herself knowing the process is hypnotic would render it useless (but so would the Seal, if that was the case).

[Kraco]

As with previous weeks, the episode had me engrossed. The portrayal of squealer being more dangerous and shifty than you can read from his words alone was well done. I was actually entertaining the idea that the Robber Fly might have even teamed up with the Ground Spiders to kill off the human rulers - but then it would make no sense to have Squealer save them in the first place.

I was thinking the Robber Fly got their Queen kidnapped by the Ground Spiders and they were blackmailed to lead the humans to an ambush. However, in retrospect I think their behavior is explained by their simplistic animalistic nature and the fact they consider humans (cantus users) gods. Of course they might now start to doubt that godhood, but they probably might be more willing to push any deeper analysis to the future and concentrate on the immediate problem of the Ground Spiders. In short, it might be useless to try to use only logic to explain their actions. The Ground Spiders look more developed and witty, though.


The most confusing part was that Saki didn't tell Satoru to reverse he own seal. Perhaps she thought he might lose his powers, or that herself knowing the process is hypnotic would render it useless (but so would the Seal, if that was the case).

Satoru couldn't do the thing in reverse because he doesn't know Saki's mantra. But I think it's a plot failure that Saki's own hypnotic block is still in effect after that. Satoru's case is very clear, he didn't need to realise anything, but since Saki now fully knows what's going on, she ought to be able to click her own switch - or rather the switch shouldn't be there anymore in the first place. It seems weird her hypnosis would still work if she fully knows that flimsy thing is the only thing holding her back.

[Xelbair]

I think if you 'unseal' someone's cantus you have to redo the death feedback training - at least that's what this ep is suggesting.

Kraco - it think is is ok - hypnotizing yourself is really hard... and maybe the whole sealing makes them forget their own mantra(which i assume is needed for them to use cantus).

[Buffalobiian]

@Kraco: Saki could have just told him her mantra, but then..


and maybe the whole sealing makes them forget their own mantra(which i assume is needed for them to use cantus).

I guess that explanation works somewhat. I interpreted the hypnosis as inducing the belief that your cantus is sealed and doesn't work (rather than selectively wiping your memory of your mantra).

[Kraco]

I don't buy them needing the mantra to use cantus. That's just another aspect of the training and conditioning allowing more control, both precautionary and in case something goes wrong. However, I can't see how Saki could have had such a revelation and could have unlocked Satori from the hypnosis without realising she's not really incapable of using her own powers in the first place, that she only thinks so. It's obvious they forget their own mantra, and that's precisely why they are heavily discouraged to share their mantras with each other (since those aren't forgotten).

Well, nevertheless, I won't be too dissatisfied with the current plot progress if Saki does awake on her own when Satori's stamina fails for good or he even dies, and Saki has to defend herself.

Other than that, I'd also like to know what happened to the rest of them.

[shinta|hikari]

Satoru dying is fine with me. He is being too stubborn and needlessly brutal for me to want him alive.

I think hypnosis in this show works differently from RL, where hypnosis mostly has no effects at all. It seems to act more like a spell, and undoing it by using a similar ritual is the only way.

[Ryllharu]

Saki undoing his seal didn't work quite the way they thought it would. She has definitely noticed that Satoru has become substantially more aggressive, and called him out on it. While a certain amount of it can be tied to fatigue, frustration, and obvious rage at the foreign tribe, there was more to it. Saki didn't quite recognize the way he was acting. She may have undone quite a bit more than she thought.

The both of them realized by the end that Saki not using her own abilities is starting to gain attention. They very likely will kill her if they find out, so the two of them returning to safety quickly is paramount. They also caught the potential of the "friendly" tribe using them for their own ends. They were most certainly not taking the pair to safety, they were using them as a sort of "nuclear" option. They were running the group through the worst of the trapped areas, they weren't lured in by the other tribe thanks the scouts making it through safely.

This is another part of why Satoru is getting desperate. The most expedient way to get home is brutality. Satoru said it himself. Fear works the best on the queerrats, for both tribes.

This was somewhat of a rambling post, but you're too hard on Satoru. Something is off about him after what Saki did, but nevertheless, the situation somewhat demands his current methodology.

[Kraco]

Yeah, I also think Saki reusing the hypnosis might have unlocked a bit more than just Satoru's cantus.

The "friendly" tribe using them for their own ends is obvious and perfectly natural. That's what you would do with living gods, assuming the living gods won't kill you outright, which would also be perfectly natural. You seek from the gods what you can't do on your own. If the gods can't do it either, they become instantly useless. I think that was pulled off pretty well in this episode, especially the small moment of uncertainty when Saki made the careless comment nearing the end.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't hate Satoru, I just don't need him alive to enjoy the show. I also find it more interesting when even main characters that are developed for a few episodes can die, making the suspense more real.

If Satoru can do all this with his Cantus, I wonder how powerful Shin is, considering he is an honor student and is viewed even by Satoru as an elite.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 07 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=372281)



--------------------------


<<Obligatory "great episode!" comment be here>>

I'm once again impressed by Satoru's ability to think things through here. Saki helped him out as far as strategy goes against the catapults, but his doubts about the queerats and initiative to lead their escape were much needed for group survival (even if you argue that his doubts were ultimately "misplaced" since Kiroumaru ultimately helped them).

I'm not sure if Squealer's guidance to the lake was all part of the plan, or whether Kiroumaru simply tracked him there and decided to help out. I find it strange that Shun and the others would be conveniently waiting at the exact same spot when Saki and Satoru went through so much more trouble to get there. It would seem more likely that they received Kiroumaru's help somehow.

There seems to be great variance between all these queerats, from the lowly Robber Flys, bandit-like Ground Spiders.. and now the seemingly most advanced, war-worthy Giant Hornets. One would even describe Kiroumaru as being handsome. I'd say his decision to help them (and defy the Ethics Council) was based on the word spreading about Saki saving queerrats from before.

The preview for the next episode suggests that our group is starting to go rogue after having the magic of hypnosis lifted from them.. but the whole remove-bad-children system should still be active, which suggests they've all be conscious of how adults perceive them ever since and adjusted their image accordingly.

[Kraco]

Hard to say. I think the stress and constant danger to their life was making them paranoid, rather than there being any real reason to escape. I did get the feeling Kiroumaru was highly intelligent and I doubt he bought the whole godhood thing above the level of the dangerous psychic powers. Besides, to think the village would make queerats eliminate gods is ridiculous. Nothing would plant a seed of rebellion better than to have the queerats experience killing humans firsthand. It could work with a special, isolated death squad living totally separated from the rest of the queerats but not otherwise. Kiroumaru might have helped them simply because Satoru saved him from the explosion earlier.

I don't think Kiroumaru helped Shun's group, though. They obviously had faced no hardships whatsoever, so they escaped successfully after the monk's death and then likely camped around that very lake for the whole time Saki and Satoru were fighting for their lives. I have to confess learning this lowered Shun in my eyes quite a bit. It's kind of sad Satoru is now the most experienced among them... But then again, Satoru is still Satoru, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one making the most mistakes now that they are back.

[Ryllharu]

Judging by the narration before the ED, combined with the preview, I'm guessing that, like before, Saki's method of restoring a Cantus isn't quite the same as the method originally used to lock a Canti user down from their true, world-dominating strength that they're born with. They're brought down from their initial strength, and further ingrained with mental compulsions and restrictions. It's been carefully crafted over centuries. Saki was inexperienced with the methodology, and is just unravelling it, repeating the words, perhaps missing the other parts that she was hypnotized into forgetting about. Like the flashback when the old man was stabbing himself and convincing her that she was doing it in order to ingrain the death-sickness in her. What other parts was she made to forget?

So with a bit of a time skip, we will likely see more and more of the instability creeping its way into their personalities. Satoru became more aggressive, and from the earlier ominous narration, Maria goes berserk at some point, my guess would be due to jealousy toward Saki.

We'll also likely see a rivalry between Satoru and Shun over Saki. Shun and Saki like each other, her tears thinking she'd never make it back while thinking of their night on the river show that, but Satoru and Saki also have a connection (more of an emotional entanglement) due to their escape that can never be broken.

Maybe that's what pushing Maria over the edge. She wants one of them, but they both want Saki, and her jealousy erupts. The existence of the narration proves she didn't kill Saki, so perhaps Maria will be torn between her hatred and fondness for Saki.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 08 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=374801)


------------------











Wow.. didn't see that coming, even if in retrospect the hairstyles in last week's PV were screaming BL.

[Kraco]

Wow.. didn't see that coming,

Yeah, although looking back at it now, this surely was the most obvious way to make the "bonobo genes" evident. In any case I'm happy it didn't last longer than a single episode. It made its point already in that limited time, and it was annoying to watch Shun with somebody else than Saki.

I wonder what happened to Shun. I'd hate to think he was disposed of, but with this series it's not altogether impossible. He even left a memento behind, in Saki's hands. But right now I'm still inclined to think his fate will be tied to the next arc, and he won't be found dead by the end of it.

The best scene of the episode was the meeting between the masked priest and Shun, and the deranged grin Shun sported afterwards, nicely followed later by Saki's memory of the eye peering out of the cracked eggshell. In my opinion it demonstrated how Shun was all the time expecting repercussions from their little side trip two years prior, and he couldn't anymore handle the stress. So, when it finally happened, he was actually glad it's all over. It would have been nice to know what the priest said inside the distortion bubble, but I guess that's not essential.

[Buffalobiian]

Yeah, although looking back at it now, this surely was the most obvious way to make the "bonobo genes" evident. In any case I'm happy it didn't last longer than a single episode. It made its point already in that limited time, and it was annoying to watch Shun with somebody else than Saki.

I, on the other hand, am very pleased with the results. Bonobo genes ftw!

I wonder what Maria is to Saki. Is she just a sexual frustration outlet, or is it a case of "I love Maria, but I love Shun more" triangle?

[Ryllharu]

Well, that episode didn't at all go the way I thought it would!


Theirs is a weird relationship. Maria is definitely the dominant one in their relationship, but Saki is only there because she couldn't have Shun. Maria may be Saki's source of comfort, but once there, Maria is the one in control.

[Kraco]

Theirs is a weird relationship. Maria is definitely the dominant one in their relationship, but Saki is only there because she couldn't have Shun. Maria may be Saki's source of comfort, but once there, Maria is the one in control.

That's pretty natural, all in all. Saki seems to be the one the least affected by the bonobo genes, perhaps because she might be the one thinking about it the most (and consequently fighting against such a legacy). So, even though she seeks comfort from the only source available when Shun isn't there for her, it's not like she'd necessarily want to be with Maria intimately, so she couldn't really be in control. On the other hand, there's no way Maria wouldn't realise how Mamoru feels, but it looks like she's just enjoying torturing him, so it fits well together with being the dominant one as well with Saki.

[Buffalobiian]

Mamoru's a guy?!

I thought it was completely weird that s/he sounded so manly, but I had always thought s/he was female..


edit: hmm, you're right. The school uniforms are coloured according to sex.

[MFauli]

For shame, Satoru! From almost banging the main heroinel t0 tongueing a boy. Fail :/

Very interesting episode. And much better than the mess of those previous weeks. Shun´s deranged grin was the highlight of this episode. Felt completely surreal and unexpected. I´d love to know what happened between him and the priest.
However, no way in hell is Shun going to be disposed of. The adults will maybe try to, but it´d be to too anti-climatic to have it actually happen. Shun will work it out, somehow.

What I´m also looking forward to is the explanation of why the adults let the group stay alive when they knew about their "neo cantus" all along. Curiosity?

EDIT:

Oh, and Mamoru will be the one to show what the true, bad, terrible nature of a Bonobono is like. Damn, the way the girls talked in his presence was just cruel. "We´re drifting apart" - "Me and Saki will always stay together!" Umm, okay, heartless bitch, there´s a sensitive boy next to you who likes all of you, how about welcoming him, too?!
Yeah, Mamoru´s definitely going to have his EVA-goes-crazy-without-energy moment.

[shinta|hikari]

I actually liked how they went all out with the BL. The delivery didn't feel like fanservice at all, and seemed important to establishing the world of the story. There will be BL fans screaming while watching the episode, but that isn't the (only) goal.

I think the priest sensed what kind of operation Shun is doing with his Cantus. The exercise was simply to make the chick hatch, but Shun was far more talented and twisted than anyone imagined. He was performing genetic manipulation. Shun was also careless. He let his pride control him and caused him to show off to the priest, causing the current state of affairs.

[animus]

Saki's such a bitch. She knows Mamoru's got a thing for Maria and she still taunts him and asks how's it like to have a one sided crush while she's the one occupying Maria.

[Kraco]

I think the priest sensed what kind of operation Shun is doing with his Cantus. The exercise was simply to make the chick hatch, but Shun was far more talented and twisted than anyone imagined. He was performing genetic manipulation. Shun was also careless. He let his pride control him and caused him to show off to the priest, causing the current state of affairs.

Yeah. Although since the priest's visit was a surprise, it's not like manipulating the egg was specifically aimed for that moment. It was just the culmination of the long observation period, I reckon. I will also still maintain my original stance about his motivations, and not think it was carelessness but on purpose. I don't think the deranged smile really fits together with carelessness, unless he was first careless and then suddenly snapped.

[Buffalobiian]

Saki's such a bitch. She knows Mamoru's got a thing for Maria and she still taunts him and asks how's it like to have a one sided crush while she's the one occupying Maria.

It really was insensitive.

Mamoru's in the same position as Saki in the Saki-Shun-Satoru relationship, except Saki's got her comfort pillow ala Maria, while Mamoru's got his drawing board. Maybe it was out of sheer curiosity on Saki's part since she doesn't see Mamoru having some sort of backup partner.

Still, after Saki said that I thought "Do you srsly want him to murder you or something?"

[shinta|hikari]

@Kraco - Letting his pride dictate his actions is the careless part.

[Kraco]

@Kraco - Letting his pride dictate his actions is the careless part.

That could be true, but there hasn't been a single scene that unambiguously would have shown he would make mistakes due to being too proud, none that I remember anyway. So, it's just speculation. Although I admit everything I said is nothing but speculation as well, and a single grin is too weak evidence for any solid conclusions.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 09 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=377058)

[Kraco]

I wonder how thin is the line between a genius and a demon? Though it makes sense that the younger and more unexperienced one is, the easier it would be to lose control of excessive power. If that's what it's all about. If it is, the deranged grin of the previous ep surely would fit well together with it, as well as Shun's later behavior. He must have sensed not only what the society would do with him but the reason for it: his own growing instability.

We haven't really seen anything much concrete of the upper echelons of that society, so it's impossible to say for sure, but considering all the secrecy, rumours, and finally that the school was releasing the cats to hunt Shun, I'd say Shun actually has reasonable chances. If we have rumours, nameless fear, and other such insubstantial things instead of deadly enforcerers patrolling the streets at night, it suggests there's not so much power behind it all. It's very easy to snatch away kids even with little force, especially if the population is scared witless. However, if someone is close to getting something called a demon, then I think they are already betting against high odds when trying to deal with it.

In any case, I still hope Saki and Shun will get together as a happy couple before the end.

[Buffalobiian]

In any case, I still hope Saki and Shun will get together as a happy couple before the end.

I was hoping more for a Saki/Satoru ending.

That cat didn't look too aggressive when it looked at Saki (though the one in the preview is an entirely different matter). The release-scene suggests the teachers don't have much control over the cats besides a release-then-capture method, so the cats aren't likely to just overlook her.

I'm also interested in what the relationship between the kids and the Queerats are now. Did anybody see Satoru with one of those bracelets/chokers? I'm suspecting that Shun may have given one to Saki only.

[Uchiha Barles]

This is the point I'd really like to know, just how much of what happened during the camping trip are the adults aware of. Shun mentioned that they know that their powers had been sealed, and then obviously unsealed. I'm in agreement with the people suggesting that the sealing/unsealing process developed by the society places controls the cantus users; controls that probably were not replaced when they unlocked their own powers using Saki's method. If that's the case, then these kids could probably kill other humans. With the society knowing this, I'd have expected a much more pronounced and immediate reaction from them. That's not what we're seeing though. They're behaving as if Shun is a "normal" threat whose restraints are still in place.

This is of course assuming everyone is correct about the restraints and their implementations.

[Kraco]

I doubt all of their human killing inhibitions would have been removed. Even normal people most of the time would hesitate slaying at least the first victim. These folks have been both genetically modified and then conditioned over who knows how many years to suffer from the consequences. No single incident likely could ever remove all of that. Satoru killing hostile queerats doesn't necessarily yet mean he could kill real humans as easily (or creatures protected suitably, like the library).

What I was trying to say in my previous post is that they aren't necessarily thinking Shun is still normal (because they aren't, clearly), but that they might have limited means of dealing with him. I don't know how the cats operate, but they should be pretty mighty to be able to subdue Shun, who is supposed to be more powerful than Satoru. And Satoru showed immense power during the trip arc - and they were two years younger back then. Until I see the beasts in action, I won't believe for a moment they can do it, unless they catch him asleep. Shun knows even about hypnosis, like the library employed, so he should be wary already in case the cats rely on that.

[Uchiha Barles]

Yeah, those beasts attacking them is partly what brought that up. As far as we know, they've been used to deal with children who seemed to be growing in a manner that was problematic for the society. But Satoru's shown a great deal of combat ability, and this was 2 years ago. The ease with which the adults were able to use their Cantus makes me think "...I don't see why Satoru himself couldn't do this..." Yet, the adults seem to wholeheartedly believe that Shin will be dealt with by those cats...why? There's a disconnect here. Either Satoru is special among them, the adults are unaware of something concerning the kid's experiences during the camping trip, or the mechanics of things (power sealing, the abilities of the cats, etc.) aren't quite clear yet. Obviously the last thing I listed is true, but I get the feeling that the 2nd is as well. This is important because I think that when the shit hits the fan, this is going to be the cause of it.

[MFauli]

The one, big omission in all of this is the presentation of this world´s society. We only ever witness Saki and her friends when they´re at school or at home. What about the rest? Where are all the adults outside? It feels so barren. It´s just the group of five, meeting Queer Rats and other fantasy stuff. Saki´s parents are worried about her, they´re morning their lost child, yet we´ve seen so little of their world that it makes me wonder, why I should care about it all.
Or, if I´m following my more leftfield-thoughts, it makes me suspect that EVERYTHING we´ve seen so far is something completely else. Another pseudo-Matrix-MMORPG-like environment? Some outside-person messing with these children´s brains and stuff? No idea. But it´s all so weird that I keep getting ideas like that.

Also relating to the above, just what is Saki´s daily life at home like? How´s the relationship between her and her parents? I mean, damn, I could never take it, if my parents so obviously hid some important matter from me. JUST SPILL IT. Who gives a shit about rules and such. Don´t take your own child for stupid. sigh.

Whatever. After that super weird "side"-story about Saki and Satoru fighting muscle-packed queer rats, this anime has now returned to being genuinely exciting. Looking forward to next episode.

[Ryllharu]

The only thing I'm surprised at is that Saki didn't confront her parents about the disappearance of her older sister, especially now that she remembered it. It's not the first time it has come up, her mother is particularly bad at hiding her own distress about her children (though perfectly understandable).

It should be clear by now that what makes Saki special is her unique brain structure, not the strength of her Cantus (which is just below average). For whatever reason, brainwashing simply doesn't stick on her. She recalls details of their collective upbringing/training that the other four don't remember, and now she was unable to unlock the memories of her older sister, something she showed no sign of awareness toward when she first overheard her parents.

I had thought that Saki either wasn't alive at the time her parents had a child (or other children) and that Saki was their "next try" or she wasn't any older than a baby. From the flashback, Saki was certainly old enough to possess self-awareness, and have plenty of vivid memories of her sister. The brainwashing purge is quite powerful to remove her sister's existence so completely. It's even more telling that Saki broke through that.

[Kraco]

The only thing I'm surprised at is that Saki didn't confront her parents about the disappearance of her older sister, especially now that she remembered it. It's not the first time it has come up, her mother is particularly bad at hiding her own distress about her children (though perfectly understandable).

That didn't surprise me at all. There's already a big gap between her and the parents. She must be heavily judging them to belong to the generally secretive, ignorant, normal part of the society as opposed to their little group from the trip arc. Her feelings of fellowship might right now belong to the group that is being set apart from the society. There has to be mistrust involved as well. She's feeling unsure how much she can trust her parents, especially after they adviced she must forget Shun. And above all, she suddenly got too busy anyway. If she had gone to pressure her parents about the sister, they might have prevented her from leaving to search Shun.

[David75]

I'm a little surprised in such a society the parents giving birth would raise their own children.

In that kind of setting, I would have thought they'd give babies to other couples so that the bonds do not get too strong between children and parents.
Then another swap or even collective upbringing from 3 to adulthood.

[Kraco]

Wouldn't that considerably increase unease and rebellious sentimentality in the long run? It's not like most parents would ever want to let go of their (young) children. They would have needed to remove that feeling from the very genes, which would have ultimately also meant that the adults wouldn't have properly taken care of anybody's children. That society heavily depends on certain internal peacefulness and high conformity, which both require meticulous upbringing (in addition to the hypnotic conditioning). Like I said in an earlier post, they don't seem to have a large police force at all and there seems to be few punishments aside from making people disappear entirely, so they can't afford to have unruly citizens resulting from poor childhood.

[Kraco]

Episode 10 - UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=379295)






- -- - - -- --








Damn, did he really die? As they say, no body was shown, but it did give an impression of finality with the broken mask and everything. If that happened, this won't be a romance of any sort for me anymore but a tragedy, no matter what kind of pairs it might spawn later. It was the most cruel lesson for Saki in any case, of the true state of their world. I wouldn't really say there would have been great surprises as such in this episode, but it certainly condensed it all together and underlined subconsciousness, as well as added another, perhaps more important, reason why the hypnosis and conditioning are used so extensively; not to protect humans from the (willful) actions of other humans but rather themselves.

Whatever the case, I'm happy Saki at least was there, even if she couldn't do anything. Although I wish she had at least tried. She didn't even tell him she loved him as well.

[Ryllharu]

Damn, Saki was hot in this episode. Her hardened expressions were unbearably attractive.

I speculated before that her Cantus was just below average. That certainly didn't appear to be the case here. It's almost like she's been hiding the true level of her skill at the school. She crushed the cat with minimal effort, and she flies far better than Maria does. Yet, she was shown struggling to rebuild a glass jar. Was this a change in her determination (and therefore ability) because of her strong desire to see Shun, or has she always been this strong?


I wouldn't really say there would have been great surprises as such in this episode, but it certainly condensed it all together and underlined subconsciousness, as well as added another, perhaps more important, reason why the hypnosis and conditioning are used so extensively; not to protect humans from the (willful) actions of other humans but rather themselves.
There weren't many surprises in terms of what the subconscious is capable of, there was no limit to what Shun didn't warp, and how warped it became. Perhaps the most distressing was the milky water that had softened rectangular droplets, drifting slowly back to the pool. He was beginning to warp physics beyond the molecular level. Saki was certainly shocked by it when she put her hand into the pool.

I think the big surprise this episode was the true purpose of the barrier, to channel the entire community's subconscious warps of reality outside their community. Their small pocket of civilization ravages the world outside, possibly every night. Their nightmares, guided by the community leaders and the school, are physically manifested, purely through their imagination.

That revelation opens the door to some rather substantial questions.

That makes me think back to the episode when the group went down the river. The wondered if they would find one of the explosive bird nests, and found one. They wondered if they would see a blowdog, and they did eventually see a few. Most notably, they desired to find a false monoshiro...and found one, starting this whole mess. Everything that happened then is now in question. Did the five really just stumble across all those things on a trip that some of them thought started out pretty boring, or did they subconsciously allow it to manifest, strengthened by the fact that their close-knit group all thought about the same things as they discussed it right before they slept?

edit:
No wonder the queerrats revere them as gods, and fear them equally. The more powerful the group of queerrats, the more they fear the cantus-users. The most prominent tribe ultimately ends up being more on the mind of the humans, and correspondingly gets more subconscious "attention." Perhaps that is why Kiroumaru looks so human/dog-like compared to the others. The community leaders "respect" him, and he slowly got taller and more relatable to humans.

[Kraco]

Yeah, I also felt the reversed reason for the barrier was one of the best details of that kind in any anime. However, I wouldn't really call it a huge surprise, because from the beginning I had been thinking behind the boundary linger things the cantus users created either by going berserk or on purpose. I still deem it's impossible something like the minoshiro could be a pure accident. Sure, you could mutate some other creature to look like that, but the vast amount of information it contained must have come from somewhere. Unless the thing was pumped full of generations of dreams and information processed in dreams. But for that it was too organized and intelligent, no matter how you look at it. So, it must have been created on purpose.

[Ryllharu]

It was one thing to believe that the generations of power-mad telekinetic royals had created all manner of beasts out of boredom. Or rampaging karma demons. It was another that many of the creatures are just the fabrication of modern and controlled cantus users' subconscious thoughts leaking out over generations

I agree that the false minoshiro was created by scientists as a living library. Shun was talking about the regular minoshiros. The ones that rattle their back crystal-spines as they walk.

[Buffalobiian]

Damn, did he really die?

Shun sounded determined enough this time, and if a God really wants to die I don't think anybody could do otherwise.

As tragic as this is, I'm glad Subaru found Shun first and was the one to go with him. It's simply fitting.

As for Saki's ability, I don't think she tries to hide. She's not particularly smart, so I'd say that her conscious will to perform a task handicaps her performance. If she just acts more on gut instincts without trying to (wrongly) autocorrect, her Cantus seems to be pretty damn good.

[Kraco]

It was one thing to believe that the generations of power-mad telekinetic royals had created all manner of beasts out of boredom. Or rampaging karma demons. It was another that many of the creatures are just the fabrication of modern and controlled cantus users' subconscious thoughts leaking out over generations

Yeah, but I still wasn't so much surprised by it. That was my point. It was a big revelation, yes, and I think I admitted as much in my post, but not a surprise as such.


I agree that the false minoshiro was created by scientists as a living library. Shun was talking about the regular minoshiros. The ones that rattle their back crystal-spines as they walk.

Right. I stand corrected. I totally forgot that proper minoshiros existed and they weren't all walking libraries...

[David75]

Regarding Saki Cantus abilities, it could be the excercise she had to deal with is a lot more difficult/refined than most students.
After all, rebuilding a broken glass object costs a lot of entropy/energy with traditional means (reheat glass to liquid, recreate the bottle). In her case, she does it on the molecular level. Might prove more difficult than what Mamoru does with sand and painting...

So all in all it's possible that flying is in fact a lot easier.

Still, the over control theory is fine too. Happens to a lot of people.
Then there's another point, Sake was like chanting something, maybe some mantra to unlock more abilities?

Regarding the Library Minoshiro, Saki's mother is a librarian and Saki was the one able to activate it in her own way.
Could it just be possible that that minoshiro had Saki's mother leaked knowledge/subconscious? Saki's mother probably has access to part of the secrets and history.

[Ryllharu]

Regarding the Library Minoshiro, Saki's mother is a librarian and Saki was the one able to activate it in her own way.
Could it just be possible that that minoshiro had Saki's mother leaked knowledge/subconscious? Saki's mother probably has access to part of the secrets and history.
Nah, it was by chance that she was wearing the sunglasses (unless her mother forced her to take them? I can't remember). That was the thing that saved her from automatic hypnotism.

After that, Saki basically brute forced the thing by ripping its hypo-tendrils off one by one. "Convinced" it to respond to them.

[einbreaker]

Speaking of which what about the fact that Saki's mother gave Shun the book detailing the history of the karma demons. I thought it was kind of weird being that up until this point all the adults seemed to be restricting knowledge of the world. Why would she in this occasion just give him the book detailing what karma demons truly are?

[Kraco]

Why would she in this occasion just give him the book detailing what karma demons truly are?

Because karma demons have a "duty" of recording their experience into that diary as far as they are able to. To help future generations to fight against that degeneration.

[einbreaker]

Because karma demons have a "duty" of recording their experience into that diary as far as they are able to. To help future generations to fight against that degeneration.

I guess that would imply that they let the incident in his village happen if they knew he would be turned into a karma demon and didn't kill but instead gave him a journal.

Maybe he was past the point where they could have stopped him.

[Uchiha Barles]

See, this last episode created one question for me, that needs to be answered in order for this world to make sense. How do they contain, control, and dispose of those who seem to be going karma demon? Initially, we thought the cats were used as assassins. Turns out we were right, but as far as effectiveness in that role is concerned, they were pretty impotent. It seemed to me like they left Shun up to his own devices for the most part, and sent the cats out as insurance. What happens when those going karma demon aren't so willing to die for the greater good? I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see how the village can do much about it given what we've seen.

[Kraco]

I guess that would imply that they let the incident in his village happen if they knew he would be turned into a karma demon and didn't kill but instead gave him a journal.

Maybe he was past the point where they could have stopped him.

We heard the head priest tried to save him. I reckon he was given the book back then already, perhaps in the hopes that by reading the experiences of past karma demons, he might gain some clues and be able to stop his own transformation. Maybe they could have killed him back then instead, but were willing to take the risk to nurture a powerful cantus user and learn more about ways to prevent their birth. Or trying to kill him might have instead sped up the degeneration, causing even more damage. They did give him the bottle of poison early on, in any case.


What happens when those going karma demon aren't so willing to die for the greater good? I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see how the village can do much about it given what we've seen.

They do prune out all aggressive, selfish, rule breaking bastards very early on, though. That significantly increases the chances any karma demons developing later would cooperate. Well, cooperate as much as they can, anyway.

[MFauli]

Subaru :(

Didn´t like this episode. As with the beginning of Saki´s and Satoru´s adventure, it was way too confusing. What was Saki doing out there alone? Wasn´t she supposed to meet up with her friends?
And those hunter cats were quite the let down. I agree with Uchiha Barles, if that´s the best the village has to fight karma demons and "traitors" like Saki, they´re a lost cause.

[shinta|hikari]

I think not all karma demons are as powerful as Shun, who is supposedly a genius that is destined to replace the high priest.

Saki would have died if not for the charm that Shun gave her. I think the cats are pretty useful.

[Uchiha Barles]

Saki would have died if not for the charm that Shun gave her.

True, but Saki was being a giant pussy. Her knee jerk reaction to being bit on the neck was enough to put that cat out of commission. God help those cats if Satoru ever goes karma demon. I feel bad for them. Another question that'd be good to have an answer for is what kind of power can you typically expect from a cantus user? We still don't have a way to, however imprecisely, measure the relative capabilities of of anyone. All of the Cantus users we've seen do anything combat related have all done things that were quite impressive. Are we to believe they're all geniuses? Because for sure, they can all take out those cats.

[Ryllharu]

I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate the cats. The first one snuck up on Saki quite successfully. Their speed and initial stealth takes a lot of karma demons (or regular misbehaving students) by surprise.

As for the second, Saki warned Shun that they had released more than one, so he was on guard for it.

I think all Cantus users are meant to be incredibly powerful. At the very beginning of the flashbacks, the telekinetics were insanely powerful. The greater their level of self-control, the weaker they seem. They can accomplish great things rashly, in a panic, or out of desperation. It is the fine control that they are constantly trained on at the school. That is where many of them struggle. It probably takes very little concentration to hurl trees and set them ablaze, or wring a body like a dishcloth, but as David mentioned, rebuilding a glass jar requires a great deal more control to get things just right.

[shinta|hikari]

Shun automatically transformed the molecular structure of the numerous poison pills he ingested to render them harmless.

No, not everyone is a genius like Shun.

[Kraco]

Shun automatically transformed the molecular structure of the numerous poison pills he ingested to render them harmless.

No, not everyone is a genius like Shun.

He didn't do that willingly. They spent a lot of time in this episode to establish cantus as a subconscious power that's hard to control. However, when you aren't actually trying to control it, it can accomplish far greater things by flowing freely according to the whims, dreams, wishes, and whatever other poorly controlled processes. So, it's not actually a life of trying to muster enough strength to do something but rather trying to suppress the flow so that the necessary amount focused and shaped to do the wanted task is let out. Normally they do seem to be able to perfectly cut out all of it, though, except when sleeping, based on Shun's words.

In light of this, it could be Satoru wasn't getting so tired during the trip arc because he used so much cantus but because he was controlling and focusing it so much.

I also think the cats are normally more effective than this episode suggested also for the simple reason most of the villagers have never done anything violent or even seen it done. So, under normal circumstances, the cat always gets the first strike, and it should be lethal. Karma demons are a different thing because they aren't in control, so anything thrown at them, short of a nuclear bomb, would have totally unpredictable efficiency.

[shinta|hikari]

Like I said, automatically.

My point is that others won't be able to do the same. If every single karma demon was able to do that, the adults would not have given the poison to Shun in the first place.

EDIT: To clarify, I think that aside from controlling your cantus, there is the issue of a person's base ability. Even the subconscious is limited by one's power. For example, normal humans cannot suddenly fly just because they are asleep. They are still bound by what the body and mind can potentially do.

I also think that having more power makes it difficult to control, which is why Shun ended up the way he did. He wasn't really the most rebellious type, but due to his power, everything went out of control.

That said, I think that while the other karma demons do possess a higher level of cantus that normal, that does not mean they are all on the same level as Shun. His base ability is just so much higher, and that much more dangerous.

[Buffalobiian]

Given that the village has had a previous history of Karma Demons, I'm with agreement with Shinta that the poison cocktail would have worked on your "average" karma demon. Even Shun was surprised that it didn't actually kill him.

[Kraco]

Yeah. That seems very reasonable. Although even if only a third of the karma demons could die by poison, it would still be worth to give the bottle. Not that I'd assume there to be a steady supply of karma demons for good statistical calculations. It could be once in decades occurrence. The village has centuries of history, after all.

[Ryllharu]

It was pretty obvious they try everything, and given what we saw they're capable of, it's pretty obvious why. There is definitely a protocol to ensuring karma demons can't do irreparable, lasting harm.

1) Instill in the children from a very young age that even a karma demon has the ability to willfully recognize they should not exist, and attempt to kill themselves. Years of reinforced training, conditioning, and outright propaganda.

2) Attempt to get them back under control through meditation and isolation.

3) Give them poison pills. If they are committed to letting themselves die as assisted by 1), the pills will work. Shun admitted to Saki he apparently wasn't ready to die yet, so he subconsciously purified himself.

4) Send queerrats to kill them.

5) Send cat(s). The so-called "last resort."

Can't send another cantus user, because the brainwashing feedback will kill whatever cantus user was sent as well, so:

6) Hope the karma demon will recognize what they have become, again instilled by 1), and will themselves to death, overcoming their subconscious desire to live.

7) Despair, for all is lost.


Shun wasn't any more or less powerful than any other karma demon (or telekinetic) who was as far gone as he was. Converting the pills was nothing. He wanted to still live for some reason (some closure about his feelings for Saki perhaps?), and so he did. During the course of their discussion, Shun recognized how close he was to distorting or killing her, the same way he accidentally killed his parents, and mutated Subaru. Given his strong feelings for her, and desire to keep her from being hurt, he was at last willing to submit (or so we are led to believe).

As Kraco said, they made quite the effort to explain, in detail, how powerful the subconsciousness is. Power is easy for a Cantus user, control is hard.

[David75]

I like the idea of Cantus being very strong from the beginning.
It might also be that Cantus is strong and gets stronger as with age and use.

It's a bit like uranium.
There's great power stored inside and it gets more and more dangerous when you refine it and density grows. And at some point you get past a point where a chain reaction starts and there's a power surge and explosion. Thing is, even in nature it can happen.

So for Cantus, even if you do not do anything about it, it will eventually evolve to a point where it's too dangerous.
The only alternative is to try to control it, even if the risk is having children that become dangerous because they control it with bad intentions (hence elimination...)

[shinta|hikari]

Other karma demons aside (because admittedly, it cannot be proven whether Shun was stronger or not because we have not seen any other ones), there is definitely a difference in power between Shun and the rest of the students.

If you say that control is what allows one cantus user to be more powerful than another, and that their base cantus power/potential is the same, then why would Shun lose control first? In that premise, the ones who are weakest in class (because they lack control) should become karma demons first, and Shun, who displayed amazing control, should never go to the dark side.

Just to be clear, the term power I am using is not mere force or strength of the cantus, although that is part of it. It is the overall active and latent ability of the individual. Rearranging molecules using the subconscious should fall into this category. The point of the subconscious is that they are not able to control it in the first place, so it would be weird to say that Shun was able to do that because he had better control of his cantus.

[David75]

I was trying to say that if you give your conscious self tools to try to shape/control cantus, then you tend to refine your Cantus too.
Why?
Because then your subconscious can use those same tools and shape the Cantus in whatever ways.
So teaching children also has them becoming more dangerous sooner, as the raw Cantus refines itself with the tools children learn at school.
Since the balance beetween brainwashing and abilities is so hard to get right, there's a high "defect" rate resulting in children disapearing.

And once in a while, there's a chain reaction in some child were the Cantus can refine itself autonomously and control feedback can't do anything against it->Karma Demon.
And Among those Karma Demon, we have Shun that might be at the top, able to escape all the failsafes that should have killed him before he becomes what he is to become: a menace to the remaining mankind.

My guess is that the mnemonic that kept Shun from death was Subaru. The unconditional love of this tiny animal was a lifeline Shun was able to connect to. That was just before Shun met with Saki again.

But at the end of the episode we can assume Shun is dead, or will die shortly should his conscious mind be powerful enough to commit suicide in whatever form.

That will enable Maria's growth for the next arc, as we've been hinted Maria will kill many.
Maria will probably be the next top tier Karma Demon, helped by Saki trying to protect/save the ones she loves.
But it might be a little more complicated than that, as Maria is not as important in the show as Shun is till now.

Back to Saki and her handling of the Cat. Well, as said she should be dead without that necklace.
Now I'm a little surprised Shun knew about that protection. He's powerful, has wits and all. But it's hard to think he thought
of that protection and created all by himself. It could be he was help by his family.
Or was it pure luck?
Wasn't that necklace Subaru's at first?
Like the Cat was coming for Shun.
Subaru was with him.
Shun's power already had transformed Subaru. Instead of attacking Shun first, the Cat attacked Subaru and failed because of the necklace. The Cat attacking Subaru first could be the result of 2 things: Subaru's transformation and the Dog/Cat base instincts. Or just the fact that Subaru was extremely quick in reacting, attacking first, forcing the Cat to defend itself.
This giving time to Shun to prepare an attack against the Cat, putting the necklace to protect himself from the second Cat.

At this point, he's already too strong to be defeated by the cats, he then meets Saki and gives her the necklace.

[Kraco]

At this point, he's already too strong to be defeated by the cats, he then meets Saki and gives her the necklace.

It's kind of funny, in a good way, that when he was floating the marbles during that scene, I was thinking he's a bit of a show-off... But now it was revealed he was likely scared he might accidentally affect Saki with his cantus, and so he did that as a diversion for his own subconsciousness.

[shinta|hikari]

I didn't see him like that during that scene. I was already sure that he was going out of control and he was using the marble to allocate his excess power at that point.

If Shun always loved Saki, why was he together with Satoru? If he wanted to protect Saki by not getting close to her, wasn't he a bit too cold to Satoru, using him just so he can have a partner?

[Kraco]

If Shun always loved Saki, why was he together with Satoru? If he wanted to protect Saki by not getting close to her, wasn't he a bit too cold to Satoru, using him just so he can have a partner?

Because he was a shy teenager, despite being a genius! It's easier for guys to get closer to each other (in normal friendship), as well as girls get closer to other girls in similar fashion, and if they have plenty of bonobo genes, I guess that relationship can develop further. I doubt Shun ever had romantic feelings toward Satoru, but maybe he couldn't supress his genes completely and kind of drifted into such a relationship, not having the courage to approach Saki. I don't think he was simply worried about hurting Saki with his cantus and totally unconcerned about mutating Satoru into something unnatural. He's not really that sort of a person. And who would want to believe they are degenerating into a karma demon until it's so obvious they can't deny it anymore? He probably desperately tried to live a normal life as long as he possibly could at all.

[Buffalobiian]

@David: I think the charm was just lucky. It was too thin for something with a primary purpose of protecting the neck. It's actually a miracle that the metal was exactly where it was.

As for it belonging to Subaru, didn't we get some scenes with him after Shun gave the necklace to Saki? That means he wasn't mutated at that point, and I can't see why Shun would take it off Subaru.

Regarding that scene, I had thought the flying balls were marking the physical boundary that Shun wanted to keep from people. I also thought that Shun's reply suggested he gave the only copy of the charm to Saki, who made the assumption that Shun would have given one to Subaru as well.

[Ryllharu]

The "wasp balls" were to keep Shun so focused on floating and spinning the glass balls that his subconscious wouldn't be able to warp things around him. If 95% of his concentration is used maintaining those in mid-air, he can use the other 5% to maintain a discussion and not worry about the world warping around him, or Saki getting twisted.

There wasn't a physical boundary, they were all around Saki, at the periphery of his present focus, where the subconscious might do the most damage.

[shinta|hikari]

I love the idea that Cantus does not simply destroy those you care about. It warps them too. The latter is probably the more cruel consequence, especially for Subaru who retained his heart.

Even the random Saki butt focusing this episode did not bother me at all.

[Kraco]

Episode 11v2 - UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=381402)





- - - - - -- - -





It's kind of nasty how they are able to shape memories like this. I guess it would be even worse objectively speaking if it was perfect, but now by having flaws it's subjectively worse because the victims feel they lost something and their memories aren't all real - yet they can't know what they have lost and which ones aren't the real memories. Quite a stressful atmosphere in this this episode all in all. I couldn't help but repeatedly in my mind tell Saki to get rid of the unknown dude during the early portion of the ep. Fortunately he did. Fortunately she still has a gut feeling she lost something precious, even if she can't remember Shun's name or face.

I was first annoyed by Maria, but it turned out she was nothing compared to Mamoru's rejection of the reality. He really didn't want to leave his comfort zone for the truth's sake. I guess he only came that far because Maria was there. I'm glad he was removed from their company before the last part. It was also funnier it was only those three present when Saki and Maria ganged up on Satoru. Well, Satoru's stocks rose a bit during this episode.

Who was the ghoul in the preview? Looking at his environment, it didn't look like the world the townspeople are living it. It was like a ruined hospital from our world (or their very distant past).

[Ryllharu]

There's probably a special reason they're calling out Saki now. I'm guessing Mamoru tattled on the three of them, mentioning Saki specifically. The Ethics Committee is finally starting to understand that Saki is unique. They grabbed all three, but I get the feeling that they just want to talk to Saki. They'll probably just rebrainwash Maria and Satoru.

Each subsequent time, the deeper they try to tear out or overwrite memories from Saki's mind, the further back she can remember and with greater detail. Each attempt they make to modify her recent memories, she gets more of the older ones back. Before, she remembered her sister's apperance, now she remembers a keepsake. More importantly, she recalled someone far less important to her. Not her sister, not Shun, but their old 6th member, culled for her weakness. They had no reason to even try to remember her, but the discordant memories associated with Shun's replacement triggered her suspicions, and she got the vague idea fairly effortlessly. There wasn't even really a reason to remember the poor girl.

Worse still (for the Ethics Committee), Saki's refreshed memory undoes some of the work on her other friends.


The way Maria is talking lately, it seems more like she knows more than she's letting on. It doesn't seem like she's just protecting Mamoru. Maybe that's just the lingering wariness thanks to the warning of her mass-murder spree so many episodes ago.

edit:
Satoru mentioned that the mirror didn't seem to be that badly made. Saki guessed that it was because her sister was weak, but what if that wasn't the case? What if Saki's cantus didn't awaken when she thought it did? I can't help but wonder if Saki made the mirror, perhaps as a present for her sister. Then her parents, out of fear for having Saki awaken so early, had her cantus temporarily sealed? Her mother's joy in seeing it appear could have been more than simply fearing her daughter would be weak for life (and therefore killed). Saki's mother seems to have a huge influence due to her position as historian and keeper of the books penned by karma demons during the degeneration.

[Kraco]

There's probably a special reason they're calling out Saki now. I'm guessing Mamoru tattled on the three of them, mentioning Saki specifically. The Ethics Committee is finally starting to understand that Saki is unique. They grabbed all three, but I get the feeling that they just want to talk to Saki. They'll probably just rebrainwash Maria and Satoru.

Possibly, but assuming they really are keeping an eye on them, the fact they wandered to the deserted village for no reason (under their fake memories) should have been a big signal there was a breach in the reprogramming. However, it's not impossible Mamoru would try to get rid of Saki to protect his big love, Maria. What comes to Maria herself, I'm not sure she's necessarily hiding anything, but her personality is kind of fickle, selfish, and high-school queenish (or whatever word you'd use for that sort of female characters). She might be of the opinion that should would willingly trade a vanished past and friends for a good current life. You could have hardly called her the most compatible person with Shun anyway.

The preview was hard to interpret, but it looked to me like the ethics committee (of some members of it) might have some other plans for Saki than just trying to wipe her memories again. Maria and Satoru are naturally another matter. It's possible they would have lived a normal life without Saki's interference.

[MFauli]

ok, STOP.

Am I the only one who´s feeling like there´s an episode missing`? Damn, I hate those jumps.

Girl kiss at the end was super weird, especially with Satoru hugging them on the meanwhile.

[David75]

ok, STOP.

Am I the only one who´s feeling like there´s an episode missing`? Damn, I hate those jumps.

Girl kiss at the end was super weird, especially with Satoru hugging them on the meanwhile.

bonobo genes...

[Kraco]

ok, STOP.

Am I the only one who´s feeling like there´s an episode missing`? Damn, I hate those jumps.

That was 100% on purpose. There's no way to make the audience forget, so making the audience confused for a little while is the best that could be done to convey something of what Saki was experiencing.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay...

Subaru = Bulldog/mutated dog
Satoru = gay dude.

Last episode I thought Satoru got mutated into a dog and posted with that in mind, so umm... sorry for the confusion.


bonobo genes...

Gotta love'm.

Ryll's theory seems to fit all the pieces, but I just can't imagine what all this achieves (All this means ep1 till now, since the preview suggests that everything up till now was to prepare Saki for a certain task..).

[Kraco]

Last episode I thought Satoru got mutated into a dog and posted with that in mind, so umm... sorry for the confusion.

I don't know what they are making you drink in Hong Kong, but it must be potent!

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 12 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=383524)

[Kraco]

Nothing awfully surprising in this episode, pretty much just verifying officially what we all have guessed so far. But then again, naturally this was quite an important episode by having Saki hear about the plans those in charge have for her. I was looking forward to some other sort of revelations from the ethics committee chief, something relate to Shun, but I guess that was nothing but my own useless hope of Shun not being dead... It's still a pity he needed to become Saki's own experience of a karma demon.

If I had to pick some minor surprise, it would be the short history of dealing with fiends and karma demons. The world seems to have a dwindling human population, so one would have surmised there were more of those in the past and thus traditions of getting rid of them safely would have existed for a long time.

Quite an interesting ending, in any case. Becoming a fiend seems to require preconditioning and doesn't happen suddenly without any warning, so I doubt Mamoru (or Maria) will become one now, but who knows. They could have the signs simply hidden beneath the repetitive reprogramming this group has suffered due to the summer trip and then the Shun case.

[Ryllharu]

I love the visuals in this series. The fiend starting in a struggling human guise, and then tearing apart to become a enflamed demon with a human shape, or the karma demon flashing a skeletal form with tears running down its face.

I felt it was pretty obvious what will set Saki's decision. She would either succeed as Ethics Committee head because she wants her memories back of Shun (not very likely), or she will have to stop or even kill one of her friends (almost certain). Mamoru doesn't seem that likely, but Maria is still the primary. I'm not willing to let go of that ominous warning that we got so early on just yet.

Lately, especially after they became official partners, Maria has gotten past her teasing and toying with Mamoru. She has all but vocally admitted she loves him. Maria was protecting him last episode, and furthermore, she was very concerned by him running away here. She's almost desperate to find him. She knows a lot more about him than we've ever seen her say before, so she does pay a great deal of attention to him. I think she is far too proud to admit how much she loves him. She's upset now, and revealing her hand a little.

I suspect that Mamoru will get killed as a result of this. The Board of Education is paranoid after all. Despite Asahina's request to leave them be, they may get fed up with how many chances Group 1 has been given, particularly after they've already had one major failure. If one turned into a karma demon, they're probably afraid another will do after acting erratic. But that act itself will drive Maria into becoming a Fiend. She will seek revenge for Mamoru, and snap, probably slaughtering a group of queerrats and then everyone in the school. This will force Saki's hand.

---------------------

Big fan of Asahina. She was very elegant and attractive, both in the flashback and now.

Lastly, Maria is really cute in her cloak.

[Kraco]

I suspect that Mamoru will get killed as a result of this. The Board of Education is paranoid after all. Despite Asahina's request to leave them be, they may get fed up with how many chances Group 1 has been given, particularly after they've already had one major failure. If one turned into a karma demon, they're probably afraid another will do after acting erratic. But that act itself will drive Maria into becoming a Fiend. She will seek revenge for Mamoru, and snap, probably slaughtering a group of queerrats and then everyone in the school. This will force Saki's hand.

That's what I was also thinking, but this show fortunately isn't so straight-forward and linear I'd yet sign that prediction. It could happen, certainly, but will it happen now? If it does happen and if it's the last thing needed to push Saki into accepting the position, it would be kind of... too smooth a ride plot wise. Although if she then did something radical once in power, it would naturally make the plot again meaningful.

[Ryllharu]

They never mentioned the other "benefits" that a Ethics Committee head is granted, just the release of all her suppressed memories. What if they also undo the death feedback? If Maria does become a Fiend, I can't see her going down quietly. She wouldn't be as easy to trick as with pretending a poison is medicine. Also, Saki can't die as a result, as in how the doctor sacrificed himself. It would be something else if Saki actually had to do it with her own cantus. Saki shows a great deal of devotion toward her friends. That led to why she got nominated in the first place. Maria is her closest friend. I wouldn't say that would be smooth, though I also wouldn't say that plot point would be very original.

There is also the issue of Saki's sister to deal with yet. They haven't explained the mirror (which daughter actually made it?), or why her sister was removed. I suspect that will become a bigger issue if they return Saki's memories. There's a lot more to it than just killing her because she was weak, or she lost control too.

[Buffalobiian]

That's what I was also thinking, but this show fortunately isn't so straight-forward and linear I'd yet sign that prediction. It could happen, certainly, but will it happen now? If it does happen and if it's the last thing needed to push Saki into accepting the position, it would be kind of... too smooth a ride plot wise. Although if she then did something radical once in power, it would naturally make the plot again meaningful.

While I'm thinking like Ryll as well, I'm also expecting my thoughts to be wrong as you've said. Since I've got no other alternatives though, the money's still on Mamoru triggering Maria.


Big fan of Asahina. She was very elegant and attractive, both in the flashback and now.

Too right. Satoru's got good genes. I wonder what place he'd have in the society as an adult? I can only really think of him as being on the Education board since he's quick and decisive but not quite compasionate/open enough. Their time during the Summer camp would suggest he's also on the paranoid/cynical side. I'd even say he had more nerves than Saki then.

He just doesn't fit being a librarian (the only other role we've been introduced to).

[Ryllharu]

There's also community utility workers, like Saki's father. He runs the waterwheel and electricity lines.

[Kraco]

Too right. Satoru's got good genes. I wonder what place he'd have in the society as an adult?

Maybe they'll put him in charge of queerat relations. He has proven he's quite efficient at... dealing with them.

[Uchiha Barles]

Sub-sophomoric joy ahead!

1398

[Ryllharu]

That is quite the independent observation. I never noticed it.

[Ryllharu]

[UTW] Shinsekai Yori - 13 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=385477)



----------




The biggest question from this episode is what exactly saved Mamoru? Mamoru is far too weak to crush a copycat and Maria was sent home.

Maybe Shun isn't quite as dead as we might have thought.

I'm guessing the Education Committee picked Mamoru as a sacrifice for a test. Like Satoru's grandmother said, the group is kept alive at the request of the Ethics Committee, who finds promise in them (mostly Saki), a certain resiliency, while the Education Committee has repeatedly proposed that the whole group be purged because they're paranoid.

In killing Mamoru, the Education Committee hopes to provoke another one of them into snapping, justifying the execution of the entire group. They probably really don't like that Asahina met with Saki, and proposed that she be her successor.

[Buffalobiian]

I automatically assumed Mamoru attacked the cat there out of fear since I had no better explanation. The Ethics committee already said that they don't interfere with the Education department though, so I wonder if they'll make such a case by stopping a kill.

I'm not quite "feeling" Maria's attachment to Mamoru still. Time has passed, but it still feels pretty jarring to me how it's gone from:

"I love Saki and don't give a shit about Mamoru"

to

"Mamoru!!!!"

My interpretation is torn between bonobos-love and a weak-brother/overanxious-sister relationship.

[Uchiha Barles]

If the education committee is indeed at odds with the ethics committee on letting the members of that group stay alive, I can see why that society is in the precarious state its in. To *not* utilize people like Saki and Satoru for their talents is absurd, even if they broke rules at some point. One of things that's been bugging me is that, not only is there no hard counter to cantus, even by way of cantus itself, but thus far there's been no discussion about it. No discussion on why such a counter would be possible or impossible, desirable or undesirable. You need people in place to examine that kind of thing with candor, and as a whole, they don't seem to have (or have had) very many such people.

[Buffalobiian]

To *not* utilize people like Saki and Satoru for their talents is absurd, even if they broke rules at some point.

The point is they're paranoid about their experiences turning them into destructive forces. It's not entirely unjustified, Shun was turned.

Also, to date we haven't been shown that a strong Cantus is somehow beneficial to society. It seems more like a convenient tool to life. The Ethics head also said it wasn't a requirement for her position, and Ethics sits at the top of the hierarchy.


One of things that's been bugging me is that, not only is there no hard counter to cantus, even by way of cantus itself, but thus far there's been no discussion about it.

They explained about how two Cantus interferring with each other is a big taboo back in one of the earlier episodes (ep2?). It was during the games where you pushed a ball with puppets. One guy from the opposite team slowed down Shun's puppet. He was subsequently never to be seen again.

[Uchiha Barles]

Here's my understanding of the defenses they have against cantus users when the social conditioning fails or when conscious control of the cantus is lost:

1) Cats sent to track down and kill the cantus users.
2) Relying on the cantus users to take themselves out.
3) Queerats

Based on what I've seen thus far of cantus users, 1 rogue user could potentially bring down society. 10 could potentially bring down the planet. We know how easily the cats can be defeated, we've seen it happen twice, maybe 3 times. We know how unreliable it is to expect the users to commit suicide. Shun failed even while actually trying (but being unwilling). And the queerats...a rogue user would rip them to shreds, let alone more than one. The methods of defense in place just do not live up to the potential harm posed by unrestrained cantus. I don't see how that society has sustained itself or will continue to sustain itself.

This is why their paranoia and wanting to kill the kids in that group is a problem for me, and it has nothing to do with their cantus. Saki and Satoru are inquisitive. While Saki's mental and emotional stability is exceptional, Satoru's displayed a tremendous amount of insight. These qualities were discovered outside of the curriculum established by the school. Looking at them through paranoia goggles just blinds them to the potential those kids have to help the society. If their way of doing things ends up in the culling of a lot of people like Saki and Satoru, that's a problem. They seem to be working to maintain a status quo that's going to inevitably end in their eradication, when they should be working towards improving their situation. The cowards in charge don't have what it takes. You need some of the people they're trying to kill.

For instance, why is it taboo to interfere directly with another user's cantus? I do recall them saying that, but I thought initially it was only for the sake of the game's rules.

[Kraco]

The biggest question from this episode is what exactly saved Mamoru? Mamoru is far too weak to crush a copycat and Maria was sent home.

Maybe Shun isn't quite as dead as we might have thought.

Nothing would make me happier than Shun still lingering, but I wouldn't trust on that. I also got the impression it was Mamoru doing that, but perhaps it was half-subconsciously, leading him down a very dangerous path. But maybe it was, after all, someone else who doesn't agree with the Education committee's decision. It would be strange, in my opinion, if eliminating citizens' children, for any reason, didn't generate opposition, so technically there could be any number of people willing to save him, but naturally the Ethic's committee still seems the most likely helper, unless there's a mole within the very Education committee itself.


They seem to be working to maintain a status quo that's going to inevitably end in their eradication, when they should be working towards improving their situation. The cowards in charge don't have what it takes. You need some of the people they're trying to kill.

Wasn't that the theme of the show? That a group of children find out truths about their world that's slowly destroying itself. That's what the paranoia and lack of tools, ideas, and methods is doing.

[MFauli]

They´re all assholes. OH, suddenly you claim you care about Mamoru? Yeah, sure. smh

As for how Mamoru survived that copycat attack...it´s either that Shun is really alive in some form and guarding his friends. Or, Mamoru´s true Cantus powers were showing. Or maybe we witnessed his first steps towards becoming another karma demon.

Whatever. Wonder what they´re about to do now. Sacrifice Mamoru or go back to how things were before their mind being erased. And flee or start a revolution?

[Buffalobiian]

I'm not quite sure how to guage Mamoru's power. They've mentioned things from "weak" to "average".. and they're not exactly the same thing.

[Uchiha Barles]

Wasn't that the theme of the show? That a group of children find out truths about their world that's slowly destroying itself. That's what the paranoia and lack of tools, ideas, and methods is doing.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it the theme, mainly because I don't quite know where this story is heading, and there's enough missing of where this story came from. It'd be nice to see what the other societies that arose after the dark ages were/are like, as well as some of the details of how they handled the problem of out of control cantus users. Because there could be reasons they don't try. A friend of mine likened it to everyone walking around with a pocket nuke as a vital organ. There's no counter to that, and there are reasons you might not want to experiment with that. I'm just not convinced that Cantus has been properly presented as such a case yet.

[Ryllharu]

That's just it though. The implication has been that there aren't any others left. What wasn't wiped out by the god-kings was wiped out by karma demons, fiends, or warped by the subconscious collective within the Holy Barrier.

Queerrats are quite a bit more intelligent than any of the other warped species (monoshiros, exploding flycatchers, blowdogs, etc.) that it might be more likely they didn't start as an animal, but are de-evolved humans.

And the most savage of the queerrat tribes are from across the sea. The closer to the civilization, the more advanced they are, the more humanlike. It could go one way, or the other. Maybe they did start as mice or rats and become more and more evolved the closer they get. At this point I'm no longer sure which.

[animus]

Maybe this is what causes Maria to snap and go on a killing spree.

[Buffalobiian]

Maybe this is what causes Maria to snap and go on a killing spree.

What do you mean by "this"? Simply the fact that society is after Mamoru? Mamoru dying? Or just this current mess in general?

I'm pretty sure this is where it's gonna be too. Saki won't be dying and Maria/Satoru... yeah, not happening.

[Kraco]

Episode 14 - UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=389706)





- -- - - - - - - --






Especially when Satoru appeared I got the feeling the board of education was planning to get rid of the whole group, all at once conveniently and well outside of the village, behind Tomiko's back. While the preview suggested queerats' own ambitions might be more dangerous, it's still not mutually exclusive, in fact it would be nothing but the two sides of the same coin. You can't have queerats kill humans but still keep them thinking humans are gods. So, employing them like that is digging your own grave, considering they are much more numerous and the human population must be dwindling.

The board of education wasn't surely too impressive. No wonder they make mistakes. Which is also exactly why they could be trying to pull a fast one while Tomiko believes stuff is going her way. But who knows, it's hard to judge, and maybe they really are willing to wait three days.

[Ryllharu]

The board of education wasn't surely too impressive. No wonder they make mistakes. Which is also exactly why they could be trying to pull a fast one while Tomiko believes stuff is going her way. But who knows, it's hard to judge, and maybe they really are willing to wait three days.I felt they were more than adequate. While they certainly look worse because they have been challenged by Tomiko's chosen group, the inquiry itself was well done. The vice-chairman got to be the "bad cop" and fluster whoever they are talking to, while the chairman herself plays "good cop," worming her way into their confidence by being "helpful." Toward the end, she very quickly turns around and acts with utter disdain toward Saki. Granted, her reaction is probably hardened by Group 1 being Tomiko's pet project, but we also saw that the chairman idolizes Tomiko.

The way they did it, it would be trivial to trap someone in a lie, or use the Prisoner's Dilemma against them. You could tell they're very good at McCarthy-style trials.

I do enjoy being wrong with regards to story direction though. Saki's vase repair turned out to be quite impressive and important. No wonder she was having so much trouble. I suppose it makes sense. Glass easily shatters, but as an amorphous solid, it must work similarly to telomeres. So while the other students think that Saki is only mediocre because she struggles at her assigned task, hers turned out to be as equally difficult as Shun's was. I wonder what, if anything, they were grooming Maria for then. Probably not Board of Education, they seem to prefer rigid thinkers who like the status quo.

[Uchiha Barles]

"Docile lambs alone cannot protect a village."

And with that statement most of my doubts concerning the soundness of how they're going about trying to deal with the situation they're in are laid to rest. Some details are still missing in the specifics, but up until now I wasn't convinced that that concept existed somewhere in their society. With that in mind, I actually agree with Kraco on the lack of impressiveness of the ethics committee. It's not that they don't do their jobs well, it's that they don't realize the stakes concerning the members of group 1. This is particularly unimpressive because they were aware that an experiment was being performed on group 1, and that it was ordered by the ethics committee chairman.

In light of that, their decision to dispose of Mamoru without consulting granny was a mistake. That along with their handling of Saki and Satoru implies that they did not consider the reasoning behind the ethics committee's decision to go along with the experiment. This is either because they did not know it, or they really could not (for whatever reason) use that knowledge as input in their decision making. That makes the education committee come across less as a driving force behind the village's protection, and more as a mere tool. Until the introduction of the Tomiko, I thought everyone behind the village's defense were more like the members of the education committee.

[MFauli]

I just cannot agree with these people´s conception of society. Yes, even individuals can become huge disasters if they turn into fiends/karma demons. But the solution mustn´t be that we kill every child that shows certain signs. It´s all the worse when seemingly all adults agree on this procedure. I also cannot imagine that Saki would ever agree on it, so I wonder what has Mrs Immortal that confident.

During Saki´s hearing, I kinda hoped that she would just say "screw it" and start going berserk against these heartless pricks. And when somebody knocked the door, I had hoped it´d be Satoru, having fled from where he was kept after his hearing, and wrecking havoc on, again, these pricks.

About the telomer-regeneration: Shouldn´t this be an ability that everyone can learn? Fixing stuff seems rather unspecial.

[Ryllharu]

About the telomer-regeneration: Shouldn´t this be an ability that everyone can learn? Fixing stuff seems rather unspecial.Think of it as a final safeguard. If a fiend or karma demon cannot be stopped, eventually they'll die of old age, illness, or their own genes becoming unstable due to their Cantus. Given how long Saki has been practicing fixing that vase, it is apparently quite difficult, and that's only the first exercise to achieve that. It doesn't seem like an ability that would spontaneously develop from one's subconscious, it requires a lot of concentration.

You want to give that ability to someone with an extremely stable psyche, like Tomiko believes Saki has.

Also, who wants to live forever? It's a tough skill, those who can pull it off get the "reward" of watching everyone around them die of old age, like Tomiko said.

That makes the education committee come across less as a driving force behind the village's protection, and more as a mere tool.
Education maintains the status quo for the sake of stability, and Ethics carefully guides society forward. If Tomiko has been ruling their community for 200+ years, she finally found someone who can guide them in a new direction.

Both are necessary, and Ethics > Education in the hierarchy because otherwise society would simply stagnate.

[Buffalobiian]

I also cannot imagine that Saki would ever agree on it, so I wonder what has Mrs Immortal that confident.

Because history has taught them that it's the best available method, even if it's not ethically ideal.


About the telomer-regeneration: Shouldn´t this be an ability that everyone can learn? Fixing stuff seems rather unspecial.

Repairing things on a micro-scale is apparently not. You don't have to have a perfectly flat surface for something to function as a mirror.

[Kraco]

I called the education board unimpressive because they are supposed to supervise education (and students in general, that is, young population), but I think being placed in charge of disposing kids has twisted them. If they appeared good at interrogations, good cop + bad cop routines, and whatnot, that's nothing but a sign of how bad things are. They are just witch hunters anymore, and only try to maintain appearances. There's no way they would have interfered with Tomiko's experiment if they hadn't fallen so deep into their god complex, because they would have seen the bigger picture like those responsible for education and public morals among the youth should. In short, they have given up already. No wonder Tomiko wishes for a successor who could perhaps change things.

[MFauli]

Because history has taught them that it's the best available method, even if it's not ethically ideal.


What about this: Make sure to train EVERYBODY into a strong Cantus-user. Even if one of them turns into a karma demon, the others should be powerful enough to stop the fiend with their own powerful Cantus. That way you don´t have to dispose of imperfect children.

[Buffalobiian]

What about this: Make sure to train EVERYBODY into a strong Cantus-user. Even if one of them turns into a karma demon, the others should be powerful enough to stop the fiend with their own powerful Cantus. That way you don´t have to dispose of imperfect children.

Death-feedback makes normal humans rather incompetent killers.

[Uchiha Barles]

What about this: Make sure to train EVERYBODY into a strong Cantus-user. Even if one of them turns into a karma demon, the others should be powerful enough to stop the fiend with their own powerful Cantus. That way you don´t have to dispose of imperfect children.

I brought this up a couple of weeks ago, asking the question about why cantus cannot be used to interfere with another's cantus. The series hasn't quite answered that question yet, but the overwhelming impression is that, for one reason or another, this is not possible. As far as harming the cantus user himself (as opposed to interfering with his cantus), the behaviour conditioning they go through prevents that.

Everyone is indeed being trained to control their cantus, but not everyone has the same potential. If nothing else, they seem willing to train you as far as your potential will allow.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 15 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=392180)



--------------------------------------


















Squealer!! Boy, do I LOVE hating you. It would be my pleasure to wring you like a cloth, but you bring along the much-enjoyed (one could argue "needed") tension in this show that I'll have to wait till the end of the series.

[Kraco]

Squealer is surely thinking big and queerats making progress by leaps and bounds. It's indeed a dangerous situation for the humans who are stagnating fast. Of course queerats have the huge weakness of depending on a single queen per colony, but nevertheless, the humans shouldn't get too complacent. It's as clear as a winter sky that Squealer wouldn't think twice about slaying all humans if an opportunity without unreasonable danger arose. Even now he's quite masterfully using Satoru and Saki to further the imperialistic goals of his own colony.

[David75]

I guess it was hinted a human could be used for his cantus if properly lobotomized...

[Uchiha Barles]

The show runners are quite masterful at building tension. It almost felt like watching a horror anime. The scene where they were entering the queen's chambers was rather scary. In fact, I don't think I've felt this way since the scene in Shiki, when Megumi slithered from under the bed to blood drain Toru.

And yeah, I'm fully expecting the queerats to fight against the humans soon. They're definitely kissing human ass right now, but having been able to exert significant power upon their own queen, they've gotten a taste of what it is to rise from under oppressive rule and fear. I have no doubt they at least somewhat see a similarity between the power previously held by the queen, and the humans. I'm sure that right now, they're brainstorming and developing ways to fight against cantus users. In fact, Squealer's intense attentiveness to Satoru's abilities and limits during the group trip arc is probably what prompted the effort to begin in earnest.


I guess it was hinted a human could be used for his cantus if properly lobotomized...

Yup...

[Buffalobiian]

I guess it was hinted a human could be used for his cantus if properly lobotomized...

Perhaps.

Childbearing is a biological function though, while Cantus control seems to require a proper consciousness to filter through. An incapacitated Cantus-user-in-a-jar could be quite dangerous. It'd essentially be a Karma Demon.

[Kraco]

Indeed. However, I'm not so sure Squealer would in fact want a cantus in a jar. He might simply want a docile, obedient, harmless human to parade around, to use as a tool to rally queerats againt humans by showing that while they can be dangerous, they certainly aren't gods. Of course it's possible, if they have a false minoshiro, that he might have learned of karma demons and could be planning to make a "cantus bomb" to decimate a human town, but right now I feel that's a stretch.

[MFauli]

I REALLY hated Saki and Satoru in this episode. Oh no, queerats don´t like letting themselves be eaten by their queen! Bad, bad queerats! You´re oh so cruel defending yourself against this awesome example of a "mother". WTF

And I really like Squealer. At least one "person" in this anime that´s smart, clever and ambitious. It´s quite clear to me that queerrats are one of the degenerate past human tribes. And they´re about to cause an upset. Though I´m not following the above discussion. Saki wasn´t worried about the queerrats using a cantus user ... she was worried about them using cantus-users in the same way they use their queen. Or am I over-analysing this? It kinda sounded to me as if Saki was worried the queerrats would breed their own cantus-users ...

[Buffalobiian]

And I really like Squealer. At least one "person" in this anime that´s smart, clever and ambitious. It´s quite clear to me that queerrats are one of the degenerate past human tribes. And they´re about to cause an upset.

I think they've evolved rats. Cantus users are changing their environment and creating new species. The False Minashiro was supposed to be a sea cucumber or something. It seems as if there are no degenerate humans to be seen thus far. They're all either dead, or Cantus users.

The theory is supported here by how the two main clans (Robber Frly, Giant Hornet) are also the most human, seemingly due to their higher exposure/interaction with Cantus-humans.


Though I´m not following the above discussion. Saki wasn´t worried about the queerrats using a cantus user ... she was worried about them using cantus-users in the same way they use their queen. Or am I over-analysing this? It kinda sounded to me as if Saki was worried the queerrats would breed their own cantus-users ...

Saki is worried that queerats would revolt against humans (their superiors) when they have the means to do so. If humans were deemed necessary to the queerats' survival somehow (let's say... they need bioenergy - to borrow from The Matrix), then humans would be kept alive to the extent of serving that purpose only.

I was amazed at words like "concrete", "diplomacy" and "encephalitis" to come from Squealer's mouth. It really shows how far they've come (and how far they can go / how dangerous they can become).

[Kraco]

Agreed. And the fact Saki and Satoru, and perhaps others, now think they are getting closer to humans will only accelerate their evolution, if indeed the stray thoughts of cantus users during their sleep affect those outside of the towns. If they are already predisposed to consider them close to humans, their subconsciousness will only grant them more human characteristics. It will also be troublesome in the sense that once they get too close, humans might not be able to fight back anymore due to their conditioning. The cats won't stand a chance against heavily armed armies, either.

[Ryllharu]

I REALLY hated Saki and Satoru in this episode. Oh no, queerats don´t like letting themselves be eaten by their queen! Bad, bad queerats! You´re oh so cruel defending yourself against this awesome example of a "mother". WTF
If you watch her and listen to her words carefully, Saki actually wasn't that opposed to their actions and that upset Satoru further who then spent effort convincing her otherwise. That surprised me at first, I expected it to go the other way around. But then I remembered Saki never liked the fact that the queen once tried to kill Squealer.

So Saki was a bit horrified at the fact they had lobotomized her instead of some other method, but in truth she was having a difficult time finding faults in their logic.

What Saki didn't like was that Robber Fly was using the two of them as a shield and nuke. She recognized that right away, while Satoru didn't.

The pair are not as united as your post seems to imply.

[Buffalobiian]

What Saki didn't like was that Robber Fly was using the two of them as a shield and nuke. She recognized that right away, while Satoru didn't.

^ Which surprised me. I always thought Satoru was the smarter/more paranoid one when it came to dealing with queerat-interaction and politics.

[shinta|hikari]

Saki has the advantage of information. She knows far too much for someone her age. Satoru may feel something is off, but her knowledge supersedes that.

The queerats are really arrogant if they think they can overthrow their gods. Satoru and Saki could have wiped out a colony, or so Satoru claims (quite accurate judging from their power). Imagine what high ranking cantus users can do.

[MFauli]

The queerats are really arrogant if they think they can overthrow their gods.

I find this to be a highly interesting analogy to reality. Just one civilisation pushed back/forth. We = queerrats, using science to master nature/god/whatever. And we´re watching it all from the perspective of god/nature, instead of the usual human view point.

[Kraco]

The queerats are really arrogant if they think they can overthrow their gods.

Perhaps. If only they knew they don't actually need to do anything but survive and wait to win. But of course Squealer might want to see the change during his own lifetime.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 16 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=394486)



------------------------------------------------












I'm happy that Satoru and Saki finally scored one together of course, but with the bonobos genes floating around, such acts of bonding don't carry the same significance that I have in my mind anymore.

I also wasn't aware that Saki and Maria were that close. The entire group had been presented together in such a away that it wasn't apparent the pair were the stronger "childhood friends" out of the bunch. (granted, I'm sure it was purposely presented that way).

Squealer is so saving that card up his sleeve for blackmailing. The key to diffusing the Squealer timebomb is whether Kinoumaru ends up siding with the humans or one of his own kind.

[Ryllharu]

At some point, Saki is going to have to go on a journey, find Maria, and kill her. She knows it, and that tears her heart out. I don't think a lot of it would have to do with Squealer's blackmail. I feel like it has more to do with something else Saki is pretending to forget about Maria amidst all the happy memories.

I'm not sure how much of the Shun-Phantom is Shun somehow still interacting with the world, and how much is Saki's subconscious. She frequently goes to it as a voice of reason.

[Kraco]

Squealer is so saving that card up his sleeve for blackmailing. The key to diffusing the Squealer timebomb is whether Kinoumaru ends up siding with the humans or one of his own kind.

It's not that simple at all. It all depends on Saki's fortitude and little else. Because the queerats can ill afford to try to confront any humans with an attitude like that. If Squealer tries to blackmail Saki and Saki refuses, then what? He goes to some other humans to rat on Saki? Maybe it would hurt Saki, maybe not, but most assuredly it would make those humans, who are already paranoid enough to slay their own children, become extremely suspicious of queerats. Like Maria's letter attempted to teach, these people no more stop at anything when they let fear control them, so it wouldn't spell well for queerats.

So, for now I'd be more inclined to think Squealer is smart enough not to employ it as a tool for blackmailing but rather a favour. He was pretty good at using the kids for his own ends, more than once, so I think such manipulation is more like his chosen path. Until queerats decide to wipe out humans entirely, of course.


I'm not sure how much of the Shun-Phantom is Shun somehow still interacting with the world, and how much is Saki's subconscious. She frequently goes to it as a voice of reason.

I guess I'm pretty miserable, but I can't help but hope it means Shun is still lingering... But naturally Shun's vague memory would play splendidly the role of Saki's inner voice of reason and conservatism considering Shun played it by the book, trying to kill himself once he became a karma demon.

[Buffalobiian]

Maybe it would hurt Saki, maybe not, but most assuredly it would make those humans, who are already paranoid enough to slay their own children, become extremely suspicious of queerats.

But it would prove the queerat's loyalty to the humans overall. I wouldn't be so sure the humans would fear them just yet, since they're pretty sure of themselves about their genetic superiority and ability to kill of queerats at will. They only fear karma demons and fiends because they're something they can't kill. (PS: all the more eerie that Squealer mentions human bones as if he's had to deal with them before).

As as for Shun, I think he's pretty dead. If a karma demon wants to kill themselves, I'd think nothing can stop them.

[Ryllharu]

If a karma demon wants to kill themselves, I'd think nothing can stop them.
Except their own subconscious...

Shun tried once, he failed. Shun tried again while sending Saki away, there's no way to know if he succeeded.

Which was stronger, Shun's desire to keep Saki safe from himself, or his desire to still be a part of her life?

[Buffalobiian]

Except their own subconscious...

Shun tried once, he failed. Shun tried again while sending Saki away, there's no way to know if he succeeded.

Shun thought he wanted to kill himself initially, but he actually didn't and his subconscious degraded the pills. The second time he well and truly wanted to die. I am convinced that Subaru's death got through to him that his very presence means death to those around him.

[Kraco]

But it would prove the queerat's loyalty to the humans overall.

No, it wouldn't. That's my whole point. It would only prove two things: Queerats withheld the information until it suited them to reveal it, and once they heard what Saki had to say, they might also learn queerats tried to blackmail humans. Many of those in power among the humans are paranoid. They don't fear only other humans, they also fear information and thus false minoshiros. If they realised queerats aren't only brainless half-animals, a paranoid mind wouldn't be able to take it for long.

[MFauli]

My favorite part of this episode was the beginning, where Maria basically explained how shit this whole current concept of their society was. Exactly what I´ve been saying last week. Nice.

As for the future, I see at least one of two things happening, necessary from a story-telling perspective:

A) The FULL-ON way: Saki and whoever´s left officially turn against the adults and fight. Destroying most of the villages, accepting everybody who shares their view.

B) The subtle way: Shun is still alive. As are other previously thought dead children, be they karma demons or not. Some big twist is unveiled, showing something like ... like all those who were supposed to be killed but survived, having managed to create a better society by themselves.

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm definitely appreciating the attention paid to detail by this series. Satoru finally brought up questions about the underlying mechanics of cantus and just what exactly must be powering it. His thoughts continue to venture into profitable territory and I really hope that gets fully developed. Not that I have any reason to think it won't. This kind of thing'll be needed because Maria's description of the village was definitely spot on. In particular, she says that it's not simply that the adults are terrified of what happens when a cantus user goes rogue. The way the keep tabs on things seems to suggest something more is happening. I can't tell if Maria is simply lacking knowledge that Saki is privy to, or if she's indeed becoming aware of something more sinister.

That dream Saki had was fantastically creepy. More like a bad shroom trip than a dream in fact, which got me thinking: I don't think she's as free from manipulation as it might seem. It's just a feeling, because certainly the conclusion that Maria has to die is a logical one given the talks she's had with the head of the ethics committee. Even so, something about that dream felt implanted, and her waking thoughts felt like a conditioned response to a stimulus. I'm thinking this probably because of how against the grain it is relative to her feelings on the matter. Thinking a bit more into it, it makes sense that they wouldn't let the members of group 1 completely from under their power even if they're given more leeway.

[Ryllharu]

I don't think you need to think that deeply about the necessity to kill Maria.

Mamoru will get killed, by someone. If not from their home community, someone or something else will. When that happens, Maria is going to become a fiend, and she will return to the villages to wreak her vengeance for driving them away in the first place.

It's not manipulation. Saki knows Maria better than anyone else.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 17 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=397229)

[Kraco]

Quite rapid development. I wonder what kind of military technology the main army of Robber Fly is boasting, or if it was sheer strategic excellence that granted them an easy victory. The preview suggested Maria & Mamoru might be somehow involved, but who knows. I certainly see no reason why they would intervene in queerat conflicts. Unless they in fact never fled far but have been living supported by Robber Fly.

Other than that, I was happy Saki and Satoru weren't together. Although I guess there's a danger this incident will cause that to happen.

[Ryllharu]

The Giant Hornets got completely annihilated in a subsequent battle.

Now this is a pretty big if, but what if Robber Fly has Maria working for them?

Saki and Satoru contemplated the effects of lobotomization on humans. The Robber Fly alliance has become experts at it working on their queens, despite the crude efforts they once had with Robber Fly's queen.

I'm not suggesting that they captured Maria, lobotomized her into a compliant state. But what is the possibility that the Robber Flies captured Mamoru lobotomized him, and are using him as coercion? At first, I would think she would go on a bloody rampage, slaughtering all of them to get him back. But what if they had performed it in such a way that she would need them to take care of him for her? Mamoru seems a likely target for capture, he's too timid and would be too trusting of queerrats after his departure from society.

I think Squealer/Yakomaru is too smart to merely be used as a pawn by Maria in her scheme of revenge against society. He would certainly use her if the offer was presented, but he wouldn't tolerate living under her command, he views queerrats as equals to the gods these days. I can't blame him really, he finds it so easy to trick all but the most wary of them (Saki and Asahina Tomiko).


As an aside, 26 year old Saki is hot. I like her air of sternness as well, always did, but now it suits her all the more. I also wonder if she has still been working on her telomere regeneration exercises with Tomiko. Saki working for the exospecies department is not something I ever would have guessed she'd do. Now I am really curious what happened in those last several years.

[Buffalobiian]

I didn't get the commentary during the fight. One side is shooting the other with firearms, and they're surprised that the ones being shot at have bamboo shields? wtf.

While I think Maria is working with Squealer to destroy the Giant Hornets and the village, I don't quite buy the use-Mamouru-as-bait theory just yet, though the more I think about it the more it sounds plausible.

As for Squealer refusing to work with or under a god, I wouldn't be so sure about that. He's got his pride, but he's also crafty. If he has to bow his head to a god in order to use them, so be it. Dealing with one or two gods after the village is destroyed is much easier than trying to overthrow an entire village by themselves.

[MFauli]

Haven´t watched the new ep yet, but random question that came popping in my head:

What is "shin sekai yori" translated into english? "Shin Sekai" means "new world", but how do you translate the "yori" here? Afaik "yori" is used for making comparisons, like "otoko wa onna yori tsuyoi" ("men are stronger than women"). But I cannot make out how to translate this title. Anyone?

[Ryllharu]

I didn't get the commentary during the fight. One side is shooting the other with firearms, and they're surprised that the ones being shot at have bamboo shields? wtf.The ones using the guns also had the thick bamboo shields. The comment was meant to point out that the Robber Fly Alliance is using ancient human warfare technology, largely mirroring human history detail for detail. The implication is clear, Squealer/Yakomaru has captured a False Minoshiro.


Haven´t watched the new ep yet, but random question that came popping in my head:

What is "shin sekai yori" translated into english? "Shin Sekai" means "new world", but how do you translate the "yori" here? Afaik "yori" is used for making comparisons, like "otoko wa onna yori tsuyoi" ("men are stronger than women"). But I cannot make out how to translate this title. Anyone?
I shouldn't even respond to this, but try reading the first post in the thread (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/21124-Shin-Sekai-Yori?p=519486&viewfull=1#post519486).

[David75]

At the beginning of the ep, I was wondering if we were following a backstory to
another Saki from centuries ago before Queerats developed into what they are in the
Saki era we know of. Eventhough they were careful in showing us the year, Satoru
and other details.
I clearly would have liked such backstory, but the episode was a lot stronger for
many other reasons.

Adult Saki is hot, that's clear, but I find her not that mature for her age. Maybe
she's been working on the aging stuff and only ages at 1/4 or 1/3 of the pace of
other human beings. In the ep, she was more around 18-20 than 26 in my opinion, at
least on a mental level. But again, this is purely based on some expectation and
examples from the societies I live in, and not theirs that is clearly less advanced
and openminded.

Regarding the Queerats, my idea is that Humans have been played with bigtime.
They did not understand the battle they were offered to watch was for show and
something more sinister is in the works.
Of course, it's easier for us to know as Saki spoiled us into searching for what
can go wrong.

They are gradually outsmarting their Gods in strategy, tactics, war, science and numbers.
They only lack cantus, but numbers and war experience could have them beat humans after all.
To my knowledge, they were able to get rid of the monk, even if losing lots of their peers.

If they ever got their hands on a minoshiro, they probably now are devising long term strategies to overpower humans.
And maybe they are indeed using Mamoru and Maria in ways we do not know yet. Either their fiend form that can transform some of their peers into powerful beasts, and maybe others in smarter forms... After all, they have numbers, so they can experiment a lot.
Or as stated above, by controling one with the other.

Saki probably felt something strange, but never dared speak at her small level. Tomiko is growing old and her ear ending is not a problem for her. Maybe she's even wishing for something to happen at the end of her life, like what happened at the beginning as everything in between was so boring.
The decision to have Saki care for exospecies for so long is a smart one too. There she can learn the work position she should have some day as managing human communities... food/water/homes/quarrels etc and decisions to have some dead and save others.

But it only holds truth if humans survive. We think we know Saki is still living, but maybe we're only having her stroy told from a minoshiro...

I wanted to try a more detailed and better written answer, but that would take too long and I'd miss the right time to elaborate.
So I decided to throw ideas poping from the top of my head.

It clearly was a good episode for all the subtext anyone can find.

[Kraco]

The end of monarchy and subjugating the queens might have been more of a political and societal development theme than a hint that humans would be put on the operation tables of queerat surgeons. During the interrogation in this episode the people present showed some surprise when Squealer talked about deposing queens and establishing democracy. But who knows, maybe the author watched the Planet of the Apes back in the day...

I won't believe queerats are outright coercing Maria (or Mamoru) to do anything until I see it with my own eyes. Not that Squealer wouldn't be able to stomach such a thing, but it's still probably a bit premature for them to risk so much.

[Buffalobiian]

The ones using the guns also had the thick bamboo shields. The comment was meant to point out that the Robber Fly Alliance is using ancient human warfare technology, largely mirroring human history detail for detail. The implication is clear, Squealer/Yakomaru has captured a False Minoshiro.

I re-watched that scene.. it seems the ones doing the shooting were actually the Hornets (with both sides having shields).

[MFauli]

Okay, but why is "yori" translated with "from"? Should be "Shin Sekai Kara" then.

Anyway, watched the new ep.
I *HATE* Saki and all the humans. Seriously, I´m SO rooting for the queerrats ... both factions. I like Kiroumaru´s dignity and powerful appearance. And I love Yakomaru´s wit and intelligence.
Nothing the queerrats do is "evil". They´re trying to create their own society - which is perfectly fine in my book.

Let´s hope the queerrats somehow manage to cause an upset, putting "the gods" off their podestal and become the new dominant species of the planet. Saki watching the queerrats´ war is barbaric and nothing else. fuck her.

[David75]

Nope, Saki is just undergoing the training required to be a human leader.

[Buffalobiian]

And maybe they are indeed using Mamoru and Maria in ways we do not know yet. Either their fiend form that can transform some of their peers into powerful beasts, and maybe others in smarter forms... After all, they have numbers, so they can experiment a lot.

Karma Demons warp things unconsciously. Fiends kill things without limits.


Okay, but why is "yori" translated with "from"? Should be "Shin Sekai Kara" then.

Anyway, watched the new ep.
I *HATE* Saki and all the humans. Seriously, I´m SO rooting for the queerrats ... both factions. I like Kiroumaru´s dignity and powerful appearance. And I love Yakomaru´s wit and intelligence.
Nothing the queerrats do is "evil". They´re trying to create their own society - which is perfectly fine in my book.


During the interrogation in this episode the people present showed some surprise when Squealer talked about deposing queens and establishing democracy.

This reminded me of a very good point. The queerats were bred to be the humble servants of mankind. The democracy thing clearly shows that they've evolved out of that docile mentality. If we're evaluating them as living things it may be unethical to cull them based on their will for dominance and survival, but from the human perspective they're not defective products that no longer serve their purpose - Like an AI that has gained self awareness and desires self-preservation.


They are gradually outsmarting their Gods in strategy, tactics, war, science and numbers.
They only lack cantus, but numbers and war experience could have them beat humans after all.

Remember the Clone Trooper's commentary about Jedis?

If they can be tricked, they can be killed.

[shinta|hikari]

Too bad a single human can wipe out a colony. If the naked mole rats pose any threat, it is due to their ability to make use of cantus, like how they manipulated Saki and Satoru in the past, and now Mamoru and Maria.

@Mfauli - Yori is also "from" in Japanese. It is the noun form of the word yoru, which means "to come from." Learn more of the language before complaining.

[Xrlderek]

This is getting really good, only show I'm watching this season. I'm afraid to stumble into spoilers, does anyone know how much material this show has to work with? Would make my day if it has many many books.

[Buffalobiian]

This is getting really good, only show I'm watching this season. I'm afraid to stumble into spoilers, does anyone know how much material this show has to work with? Would make my day if it has many many books.

According to Wiki, this story originates from just one novel.

[shinta|hikari]

It isn't a light novel, but an actual novel, right?

[Buffalobiian]

It isn't a light novel, but an actual novel, right?

That's what I think, so it shouldn't be lacking content.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 18 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=399666)

[David75]

So with less than aproximately 100 queerats, they were able to:
Kill many humans
Kill somebody the equivalent grade of a general
Kill somebody equivalent to a ministry of war
Evaluate the power of the main weapon humans have : Shisui.

For the latter, I guess his power probably is at max the one of a Fiend/KD... or he wouldn't be sane himself.
And for some reason, I think queerats already know how to deal with Fiends/KDs...
Also, they confirmed for themselves humans suck at the art of war...

Regarding bones and DNA, we have to remember Mamoru is a great artist, he probably has the skills needed to create very good bones and dental copies. For DNA, I guess that since he's about to go KD, his powers skyrocketed and he was able to apply all his knowledge to the molecular level. I think this is all Mamoru's doing as we do not know much of Maria's specifics as we only saw her using cantus to jump/fly.

[Kraco]

It was indeed a successful strike for the queerats, considering a single fight. Though what happens next will decide the result of the whole war. If Mamoru and/or Maria is defending the colony and have become fiends, then the extermination team might be wiped out. A karma demon wouldn't be overly convenient since they eventually destroy everything around them. But a fiend might be manageable for queerats. Besides, I think people from the village would have spotted the effects of a karma demon. Such a thing would need to be kept far away from the colonies and especially human villages.

[MFauli]

HELL YEAH!

That was my reaction over the course of most of this episode´s length.
I really have to ask: Am I the only one that feels that the queerrats are the good guys here, while the humans are the villains? Or is it an intentional plot element?
Never did I think "oh those damn queerrats, hopefully the humans can defend themselves". Instead, I saw arrogance and coldheartedness on the human side of things. Tomiko daring to speak about "living beings" at the end of the episode, when all she cares about is her own species, made me rage.

Go, Yakomaru, make this world yours!

:>

[Buffalobiian]

I'm all for the humans. I can't really fault the queerats for wanting to attack humans in order to rid themselves of constant mortal threat, but I do hope they lose. Humans are prettier. They never seemed to kill queerats on the basis of "just because they could" either, so I see them as nice bosses who were simply genetically superior.


For the latter, I guess his power probably is at max the one of a Fiend/KD... or he wouldn't be sane himself.
And for some reason, I think queerats already know how to deal with Fiends/KDs...
Also, they confirmed for themselves humans suck at the art of war...

Are Fiends actually more powerful than their non-Fiend counterparts, or do they simply have their Death Feedback removed? Full bets on Mamoru being the Fiend backing up Squealer. I wonder if Mamoru and Maria actually never left the village and promised to help the queerats instead?

[Uchiha Barles]

As far as the humans are concerned, I don't want to see Satouru die, that's about it. I really do dislike the arrogance of a lot of the humans. It seems like our main characters are the only ones with any empathy with the queerats even if they're pretty bad themselves. I'm kiiiiiiiiiiiind of rooting for the rats. Besides, Yakomaru is just too damned entertaining not to be rooting for him. It'd be like watching the Dark Knight and not rooting for the joker. Hogwash!

And um...Kimomaru is totally in on all this. That smirk he displayed last week totally gave him away. I suspect both he and Yakomaru leveraged the favors done for group 1 in the past to enlist Mamoru and Maria, combine with some brain washing by way of sympathizing with their plight. Furthermore...I'm entirely convinced that the skeletons Saki and Satoru returned to the village were human skeletons. I think Yakomaru, by that time, had already seen or taken part of the murder of a cantus user. The remains are probably from said user. This was already a great episode, I can't wait to see what comes next. Crafty rats...

[Buffalobiian]

And um...Kimomaru is totally in on all this. That smirk he displayed last week totally gave him away.

I thought that was just bloodlust..

During this episode while Shisui was standing on his tower, I was wondering the entire time whether queerats had invented/re-discovered sniper rifles yet. He just seemed way too good a target.

[shinta|hikari]

Shisui would have easily melted the bullets as they came at him.

Cantus at such a level is simply overpowered. He even knew about the spies once he started to actively look for them. He simply let his guard down, and it cost him a powerful, albeit irritating and arrogant ally.

I really hope Yakomaru receives the protracted death promised this episode. I hate smarmy ambitious assholes.

Karma demons are karma demons because they can kill. Skill is irrelevant I believe, but as was shown in this episode, geniuses do exist regardless of moral inclination.

[MFauli]

I really hope Yakomaru receives the protracted death promised this episode. I hate smarmy ambitious assholes.


Yeah, fuck the guy that devotes his life to save his kind from slavery and discrimination. Wait, what!

[Kraco]

Karma demons are karma demons because they can kill. Skill is irrelevant I believe, but as was shown in this episode, geniuses do exist regardless of moral inclination.

No, fiends are those who can kill, and probably will kill because turning into a fiend seems to require some screws to become loose in the head. Karma demons are simply individuals who can't control their cantus anymore and thus screw up their surroundings accidentally. Karma demons, after all, have a history of assisting their own removal and recorded their experiences for any later unfortunates to learn from.

[shinta|hikari]

Oh crap, in that entire post I meant to say fiends, not Karma demons.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 19 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=402090)

[David75]

Yakomaru really got a way to control a fiend, and a fiend's cantus power is in an other league entirely. So I wonder if Shisui would be enough.
I guess the way they control Mamoru's fiend form is thanks to Maria. Also, I guess Saki and Satoru are still alive thanks to Maria's control, since I don't think fiends care that much for old relatives.

[Kraco]

Damn, it's annoying to watch people not doing anything to protect themselves but just die like sheep. If not for the brainwashing they would have had any number of ways to get rid of the fiend. But being conditioned as they are, they can barely run away.

I don't honestly see how Squealer or anybody could control that thing. Why would it even want to be controlled by a queerat? If it kills humans for fun, killing queerats should be no different. Maria should make no difference here. Even if the fiend wouldn't kill her, I don't see how Maria would be all too sane trying to control the fiend considering what it is doing. Yet if she is, it'd be somewhat strange she would in turn be controlled by queerats, because she would be pretty much a fiend herself. Even normal humans can kill queerats by hundreds without a second thought.

[David75]

Maria=Karma Demon
Mamoru=Fiend

And for some reason, although changing so much, they still share a very deep bond but completely lost their sense of reality.

Then, in a way we still have to be explained, Yakomaru can influence a KD (Maria) enough for his own tasks.

I just thought that maybe Qeerats, with their queen to individual reproduction, keep past experience and keep improving over generations as some of them evolve and find solutions to many problems.
Maybe over the course of time, they acquired some ways to influence KDs, and maybe they got that with a minoshiro too.

[MFauli]

Finally, all the (at times boring/tedious) build up is paying off. The last two episodes were fantastic.

First, I´d like to repeat that I´m siding with the queerrats. Oh, so I´m supposed to feel empathy for those four "gods", when they´re slaughtering dozens of queerrats in the beginning just by looking at them? I guess everyone who´s siding with the humans in this anime is also a fan of Uchiha Sasuke sadlol.

We finally get to encounter the real threat of the queerrats´ revolution: The fiend. I don´t know how Yakomaru managed to get control over one, but he somehow did. Although I´d like to mention that we really don´t know all that much about how influenceable fiends really are. It´s all hearsay from the human elders. There could be lots of lies or simply broken records hampering with the true image of what a fiend is.
Then there´s David´s posting above mine, introducing an interesting theory, too. Mamoru as a fiend, Maria as a Karma demon, strong enough to keep up with the former, combined with the emotional band between the two.

What I don´t remember: Shouldn´t Saki and Satoru actually be able to fight the fiend? The other humans cannot, due to death feedback. But didn´t the heroes-group "remove" that "seal", when they were on their camping trip and met the fake momoshiro? After losing and regaining their Cantus? Which is why they were considered dangerous by the human elders to begin with?

Which gets me to the point: Is Shisui also free to use his Cantus against other human beings?

[Kraco]

Maria=Karma Demon
Mamoru=Fiend

And for some reason, although changing so much, they still share a very deep bond but completely lost their sense of reality.

Then, in a way we still have to be explained, Yakomaru can influence a KD (Maria) enough for his own tasks.

I just thought that maybe Qeerats, with their queen to individual reproduction, keep past experience and keep improving over generations as some of them evolve and find solutions to many problems.
Maybe over the course of time, they acquired some ways to influence KDs, and maybe they got that with a minoshiro too.

A karma demon is somebody who has lost control of their cantus, at least to a substantial degree. It's nothing more than that. They are still as sane as any other villager, unless death feedback or the bizarreness of their surroundings damaged their headspace. They are just involuntarily altering or destroying everything around them. I reckon in the beginning many of them wouldn't even realise what's going on.

So, I don't see the relevance in suggesting Maria is a karma demon and that somehow would help Squealer control her. They can't even control themselves, so it's not like somebody else could - unless that somebody else was a better cantus user than anybody has ever seen and could somehow tweak with a karma demon's brain to control their cantus for them.

A fiend is another matter. They seem to be insane, more or less, and have no inhibitions whatsoever. Quite the contrary, in fact, since normally a human without any fancy hypnotized or genetic conditioning wouldn't just slaughter everybody inside a random building, unless they had a specific mission to do that (like wiping out terrorists). It seems like fiends enjoy killing and aren't simply able to do it.

[Buffalobiian]

The man kept saying the Fiend was a "he", but I wouldn't believe him entirely until I see the thing myself. He was growling and was shrouded in darkness, so it could easily have been a misinterpretation.

Maria being a KD is irrelevant, and would make her even less approachable by queerats IMO. The rest of this point was covered by Kraco.

Fiends seem to have lost some of their rationality, but I'm not sure that they're incapable of being reasoned to. Yakomaru can give the field the element of surprise he may need to infiltrate the village and hence they cooperated. That, or the fiend simply had no reason to fight the queerats that helped him in the past. Perhaps he even feels sorry for them because they've been mistreated the same way he had been.

Satoru's anti-queerat tactics continue to impress, and I'm genuinely amazed that he's now able to make a mirror out of condensed air.


--------------------------------

[ASL]_Various_Artists_-_Shin_Sekai_Yori_ED_-_Wareta_Ringo_Yuki_ni_Saku_Hana_[MP3]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=402079)
[ASL]_Various_Artists_-_Shin_Sekai_Yori_ED_-_Wareta_Ringo_Yuki_ni_Saku_Hana_[FLAC]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=402078)

[Kraco]

The man kept saying the Fiend was a "he", but I wouldn't believe him entirely until I see the thing myself. He was growling and was shrouded in darkness, so it could easily have been a misinterpretation.


The fiend was in fact Maria? Squealer assassinated Mamoru and managed to make Maria believe the village got him?

The only thing that really bothers me about all this is the timeline. To be specific, the ten years jump. What on Earth were Maria and Mamoru doing all that time? Logic dictates they would be long gone. So, what would have made them come back? I find it hard to believe they would have enjoyed Squealer's hospitality right next to the village bent on killing them. There's also no way Squealer could have kept them imprisoned until he was ready to make his grand move against other queerats and the humans. The only logical explanation would be that Mamoru turned into a fiend somewhere far away (perhaps the world was just as shitty everywhere) and in his insanity wandered back to the place of origin, with Maria forced to follow him. Then Squealer would have needed to do nothing but take full advantage of the rare chance. That doesn't exactly explain how he could have used those two to wipe out Giant Hornet, though.

Hmm... Or Mamoru could have randomly died elsewhere and Maria, turned into a fiend, came back to look for her old love, Saki. And decided to kill everybody else in the process while she was at it. I guess that sort of thinking would be natural for a fiend.

[MFauli]

Well, there´s one more possibility (if you can call it that) that would also incorporate the 10 years jump.

In the episode where we got to see the imprisoned queerrat queen, we speculated about this kind of control over a superior being. That there might even be a clue to how he, Yakomaru, might gain control over a human being/Cantus user in the future. So, maybe, just maybe, Yakomaru indeed successfully turned the experience of controlling a queen into something that let him control a human. I mean, if this anime decides to become truly fucked up, maybe we´ll get to see Maria kept captive in some dark hole, put in chains agianst a wall, her belly all swollen and big. And we´ll learn that Yakomaru had her give birth to newly born human beings that Yakomaru then turned into his personal war machines. Could we make out how old the fiend in this latest episode was? If not, maybe it is indeed some 9-10 year old boy/girl.
But that´s really the most disturbing "solution" I could come up with. It´s probably something less provoking.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, there´s one more possibility (if you can call it that) that would also incorporate the 10 years jump.

In the episode where we got to see the imprisoned queerrat queen, we speculated about this kind of control over a superior being. That there might even be a clue to how he, Yakomaru, might gain control over a human being/Cantus user in the future. So, maybe, just maybe, Yakomaru indeed successfully turned the experience of controlling a queen into something that let him control a human. I mean, if this anime decides to become truly fucked up, maybe we´ll get to see Maria kept captive in some dark hole, put in chains agianst a wall, her belly all swollen and big. And we´ll learn that Yakomaru had her give birth to newly born human beings that Yakomaru then turned into his personal war machines. Could we make out how old the fiend in this latest episode was? If not, maybe it is indeed some 9-10 year old boy/girl.
But that´s really the most disturbing "solution" I could come up with. It´s probably something less provoking.

This post is a bannable offence unless you draw it.

@Kraco: Squealer might have been able to keep tabs on them during the last 10 years. One of them might have spontaneously died or turned into a fiend from some attack, and Yakomaru somehow convinced them that the attacks were from enemy queerats and that the entire human village is after them.

The labotomising technique might be able to detach things in the brain such that death feedback no longer occurs.

[David75]

I like the Maria Queen idea... Quite plausible indeed. I like the idea very much.

My idea for the KD controlling a fiend stems from the fact that KDs change everything around them, so a fiend would also be changed somehow. I know it's quite a stretch, but we have two powers that can interact with one another and at the same power level so that they can't kill each other. And KDs can influence everything around them.

[Kraco]

In the episode where we got to see the imprisoned queerrat queen, we speculated about this kind of control over a superior being. That there might even be a clue to how he, Yakomaru, might gain control over a human being/Cantus user in the future. So, maybe, just maybe, Yakomaru indeed successfully turned the experience of controlling a queen into something that let him control a human. I mean, if this anime decides to become truly fucked up, maybe we´ll get to see Maria kept captive in some dark hole, put in chains agianst a wall, her belly all swollen and big. And we´ll learn that Yakomaru had her give birth to newly born human beings that Yakomaru then turned into his personal war machines. Could we make out how old the fiend in this latest episode was? If not, maybe it is indeed some 9-10 year old boy/girl.
But that´s really the most disturbing "solution" I could come up with. It´s probably something less provoking.

... I don't really want to believe in that (because it would be so gross). I feel the facts also speak against it. Narration and some other hints suggest Maria isn't lobotomized. I can't see any other way for powerless queerats to manage to imprison a human for a long time. As long as she could use her cantus, it would take hundreds of queerats to subdue her, and even afterwards it would be a nightmare for the queerats to keep her under control using force. If they did tinker with her brain, she would be in no condition anymore to be a character of much importance.

Besides, who would be the father? If it was Mamoru, the queerats would need to survive keeping two humans prisoners! But other than that, it is actually quite an interesting idea, leaving the queerats out of it. If the fiend was Maria and Mamoru's kid who, without any education or conditioning, was running rampant. Although I'm not sure if 9-10 years is old enough to be so powerful and dangerous.

[David75]

In the Minoshiro ep, one of the flashbacks depicted a boy that seemed to be quite young.

[Ryllharu]

It's more likely that the queerrats lobotomized Maria, blamed it on the humans, which caused Mamoru to snap, as opposed to some other grotesque means.

To utilize a fiend, Yakomaru would have to ensure that its rage was directed at the human society, so it wasn't randomly slaughtering them. Substantial brainwashing combined with a very clever ruse to keep the Fiend focused on killing only the human society and its allies. That's only if Maria isn't dead. They also could have killed her in the woods with with poison or whatever, and again, blamed it on the humans. This would also have had to happen recently.

Narrator Saki's words long ago were interestingly phrased. She said that if only Maria had died early on, many many lives would be saved, not that Saki herself had to kill her (referring to when Maria and Mamoru escaped). If Mamoru is the fiend, this makes more sense. He never would have fallen desperately in love with her to the point the he would go ballistic trying to avenge her.

At this point, the queerrats aren't really controlling Mamoru anymore. It's like biological or fire warfare. Release it, and stay upwind.

-----------------

As for anyone here claiming to support a particular side, it should be pretty clear that there isn't a "good" side in this entire series. There are no heroes, no one to admire, only villains and our hopelessly lost protagonists, paralyzed by indecisiveness.

Yakomaru is a sociopath who will stop at nothing to secure his ambitions and retaliate against whatever might humiliate him even if it takes years (his queen, Kiroumaru, humans in general). He is exceptionally manipulative. It should be absolutely certain that his "democracy" is a joke. There is no question who truly rules their society. It may have a sort of Senate, but it would be child's play for someone of his skill at manipulation to sway all of them his way over and over and over again. He rarely will even field his own forces unless he is certain of his own safety (often tricking Saki and Satoru into shielding him). He sends the latest subordinate group that his kingdom has subjugated to do the dirty work.

The humans on the other hand, have become as foolish as the Cantus Emperors, thinking that nothing could ever threaten them. Their society as a whole began to treat everything different from them as less than human. They slaughter their own. Their crimes against their own are far worse than anything they have done to queerrats or anything else. Out of fear of creating new Cantus Emperors, they as a whole became what they were so afraid of. It was interesting that Satoru got so angry about what the queerrats had done to their queen, while Saki at least understood that it's not any different from what human do to their own children, equally out of fear.

Yakomaru displays ambition at all costs with no risk to oneself like the worst dynastic Chinese bureaucrat, humans possess an immense hubris, while at the same time constantly cowering in fear about the threats from within.

[Kraco]

It's more likely that the queerrats lobotomized Maria, blamed it on the humans, which caused Mamoru to snap, as opposed to some other grotesque means.

To utilize a fiend, Yakomaru would have to ensure that its rage was directed at the human society, so it wasn't randomly slaughtering them. Substantial brainwashing combined with a very clever ruse to keep the Fiend focused on killing only the human society and its allies. That's only if Maria isn't dead. They also could have killed her in the woods with with poison or whatever, and again, blamed it on the humans. This would also have had to happen recently.

The preview had Maria's voice saying she will protect Saki. Was it a flashback? Or was it referring to upcoming events when Maria wouldn't allow the fiend to harm Saki? I guess only the next episodes will reveal that. With this show, there's no way to know beforehand.

[Buffalobiian]

The preview had Maria's voice saying she will protect Saki. Was it a flashback? Or was it referring to upcoming events when Maria wouldn't allow the fiend to harm Saki? I guess only the next episodes will reveal that. With this show, there's no way to know beforehand.

I thought it was indicating that Maria is coming (the fiend) to protect Saki from the humans. Saki will probably kill her since she's the one that Maria lets her guard down against.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 20 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=404541)

[Kraco]

I'm beginning to think these folks don't deserve to survive. Not because I'd side with queerats, but because the humans are so miserable already. They murder their own children out of fear, but then when something bad comes from the outside, they are totally unable to defend themselves and die like sheep. Such evolutionary failures have no business ruling any part of the world anymore.

You'd think out of all those people you could find a few who have lost their family and everything and thus wouldn't mind sacrificing themselves to destroy the fiend. Maybe that's what Tomiko had in mind, who knows. The fiend should be pretty tired already, having been so busy and all the time surrounded by some cantus mist. It must have run out of glycogen a long time ago and is trudging on fat alone already.

[MFauli]

Lol @ the scientifc approach here, Kraco :D

My qualm with this episode would be the lack of care for all the dead people. We see Saki, that new boy and other people walking inmidst of dead and injured people. Yet, nobody seems to really freak out.
Maybe that´s just me, but this anime went through great efforts to portray the ultimacy of the Cantus´ power, and how people felt 100% safe thanks to it. Seeing fellow citizens being killed by those "measy" queerats should be super shocking. And I mean SUPER shocking, not just "well, we had one episode showing some reaction, now we´ve moved on to what follows" kind of shocking. I want to see people break down, crawling on the ground, going into fetal position and crying - at the sight of the UNTHINKABLE: Human beings beeing killed by something, and in this case, by queerats.

As for what happened in this episode, yeah, I guess Tomiko is trying to sacrifice herself. And I agree with Kraco: Just someone kill this fiend. One dead human, one dead fiend, and it´s over.
But ... what happened to Satoru? He didn´t die, right? Otherwise, Saki would have shown a stronger reaction. But it´s stupid ... he couldn´t have gone far enough to be so lost out of Saki´s sight to not find him again within seconds. But Saki just went all "whatevs" and journeyed away. :|

[Buffalobiian]

As for what happened in this episode, yeah, I guess Tomiko is trying to sacrifice herself. And I agree with Kraco: Just someone kill this fiend. One dead human, one dead fiend, and it´s over.
But ... what happened to Satoru? He didn´t die, right? Otherwise, Saki would have shown a stronger reaction. But it´s stupid ... he couldn´t have gone far enough to be so lost out of Saki´s sight to not find him again within seconds. But Saki just went all "whatevs" and journeyed away. :|

Satoru's not dead. You see him in the preview. The explosion sent everyone flying, so I can see the two losing sight of each other. That's especially if they were hiding from sight or if one of them fell unconscious. They already established that reporting to the village was more important than the party having to sacrifice lives, so I find it pretty believable. The lack of even attempting to find Satoru was strange. Maybe he can't fly so she counted him as dead. :p

And it seems that there's a KD amongst the queerats after all.

[Ryllharu]

I wonder if Saki's latest flashback of Shun unlocked any more of her memories. Tomiko mentioned before that her mind is extremely resilient and stable, making brainwashing less effective on her. That flight through the air was the perfect kind of trigger to release more of her sealed memories.

[Buffalobiian]

I kind of hate how Shun keeps getting in the way.

Saki: I loved him.
Satoru: I feel the same way.

..COCKBLOCK..

[MFauli]

Oh, and don´t forget: She mentioned Maria, then "the other precious friend". And that´s it.

PLEASE GO DIE, Mamoru! - is what she´s basically saying :/

[einbreaker]

Oh, and don´t forget: She mentioned Maria, then "the other precious friend". And that´s it.

PLEASE GO DIE, Mamoru! - is what she´s basically saying :/

Yeah I was getting vibes throughout the whole series that no one really liked him they just kinda put up with him. Like the Bitch comment saki made about her and Maria being a thing and Mamoru being a third wheel. And there is probably resentment from Saki since Mamoru is the direct cause of Maria leaving and possible the fiend attacking them last episode.

[Uchiha Barles]

And it seems that there's a KD amongst the queerats after all.

Yeah. I would guess that the queerats are using the leakage to produce weapons against the humans. Depending on whether Maria or Mamoru is the fiend attacking the village right now, we might get to see something like this (http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/21124-Shin-Sekai-Yori?p=525916&viewfull=1#post525916) afterall :D.


I kind of hate how Shun keeps getting in the way.

Saki: I loved him.
Satoru: I feel the same way.

..COCKBLOCK..

I never really did like Saki, so a Satoru x Saki only mattered to me in that Satoru might care about it in more than a bonobo gene satisfaction kind of way. It seems like he does not.


Oh, and don´t forget: She mentioned Maria, then "the other precious friend". And that´s it.

PLEASE GO DIE, Mamoru! - is what she´s basically saying :/

This is why I hope Mamoru's the fiend.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 21 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=406774)

[David75]

So the baby/children theory was right...

And Queerats really did find ways to control fiends, their best human annihilation weapon.

Tomiko hinted there's a solution to killing fiends, but with luck. My bet is that it takes someone with her ability to manipulate their own DNA into erasing the deathfeedback... but only if the brainwashing part can also be removed.
I guess Tomiko can manage the DNA part, but never worked towards the BW part.
Saki might be the only one who does master both, although we never really witnessed her working on DNA manipulation.

[Kraco]

I don't like this. The plothole is so huge. I have nothing against employing fiends as such, but in reality the fiends should be killing queerats randomly and in far greater quantities than humans. There's no way to control them, only manipulate them exceedingly crudely, like possibly making them wander in some direction (still likely at the cost of many queerats). The one in this episode clearly showed how utterly deranged it was. If it kills humans for sport, or even without an intent, it will kill queerats, or anything else, just the same.

I really hope Squeeler will find that out the hard way, or I will need to consider the last portion of this show trash.

Still, the humans in this show are so miserable they totally deserved this catastrophe.

[Ryllharu]

I suppose it would really depend on how the queerrats are indebting the children to them, but the bigger difference is that I doubt they are true Fiends.

They feed them, care for them, maybe even treat them as something special, so the "fiend" sees the queerrats as their family/allies. The "other" that the queerrat-raised-fiend would hate and loathe would be the regular humans. It wasn't hard to see how Maria and Mamoru's child viewed the queerrats as friendlies (6:50). I would be surprised if any queerrats had died by the hand of this fiend. The "otherness" of humans is reinforced every time the Queerrat Fiend witnesses members of their "family" callously murdered by humans with Cantus.

So the Queerrat Fiends aren't Fiends in the traditional sense. The regular Fiends suffer a mental break, out of rage or isolation or whatever. Pure psychosis. The Queerrat Fiends simply aren't trained and have zero discipline or restrictions on their abilities. They are simply raw power. A return to the original murdering Espers from now-ancient Japan. The queerrats don't control them, but they do not have to fear them. They're family.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't get how unconscious leakage was supposed to be the key to overpowering Shisei, but it does make some sense that deranged Fiends (and now untrained fiends) aren't able to lock down their Cantus.

I so should have replaced MFauli's avatar with Yakomaru's mug 2 weeks ago.

[Kraco]

If the fiends could be controlled and lived happily with like you are suggesting, Ryll, then the humans would never have needed all that bullshit brainwashing, conditioning, gene manipulation, and hypnosis treatment, or culling out the undesirables. Half of the show was about making a point of how absolutely necessary it supposedly was for a stable society (or let's say a society at all) to bring up the children with absolute, and ruthless, care or none of them would survive. That's why the adults were so afraid of children, as absurd as it seemed.

And now we are supposed to believe the queerats can pull it off? One look at that abomination's face and behavior was enough to reveal it must have killed hundreds or thousands of queerats before it got to these villagers - or it's a huge plothole.

Nor do I believe the fiends (humans) would anyway live too long under the rule of queerats. Superior ability breeds superior ambition, like they said in Star Trek. They wouldn't suffer happily a rule of rodents much weaker than they.

[Buffalobiian]

Hold on. Death Feedback was genetic, wasn't it? How did Maria's baby get rid of it?

[David75]

Hold on. Death Feedback was genetic, wasn't it? How did Maria's baby get rid of it?

I was asking myself the same question.
Maybe Mamoru of Maria were able to manipulate their child's DNA to eradicate that gene.
But that would still be a problem for the babies they stole, and I do not see M&M child being able to manipulate DNA.

[Ryllharu]

Death feedback isn't genetic. We've seen a flashback of Saki being subjected to the brainwashing that causes it. When she was still in Harmony School ages, the old man at the temple repeatedly blames her for hurting him (well before she had her Cantus) and then stabs himself in the leg with a knife, traumatizing her.

That's where Death feedback comes from. It's very deep brainwashing.

[Kraco]

Bonobo genes are the genetic factor. That is, in times of stress they start to think of... things that aren't violent (like sex). I can't really see something as fancy as death feedback being plausible genetically. There might be some factors that could be partially affected genetically, like nausea when seeing blood or paralysis in front of violent behavior. However, I don't see it being fully genetic with creatures as complex as humans. The existence of fiends in fact means it can't be. I doubt fiends become fiends by having a mass of genes spontaneously altered in their brain and elsewhere in their endocrine system.

[Buffalobiian]

I initially had the idea that death feedback wasn't genetic, but somewhere down the line I got the impression that it was.

Perhaps I just lumped it with Bonobos genes and thought there were two genetic factors..

In that case, Satoru and Saki shouldn't have it, right?

[Kraco]

In that case, Satoru and Saki shouldn't have it, right?

Haha, now that would be sweet irony. Most of the town is dead, and then they realise they don't have death feedback and would thus have been able to get rid of the fiend? Nah, I don't think so. I don't see it overly likely the head honcho uber priest leader monk with two irises per eye would have a full death feedback and two random youngsters wouldn't. Saki and Satoru might be missing something, but I very much doubt it's the death feedback. An average human is fully capable of slaying queerats (or other animals), that doesn't require any special conditions. I reckon the monk of the trip arc got weaker because he killed the false minoshiro with its false trigger for the death feedback. At the time it looked like killing dozens of queerats might have affected him as well, but maybe that wasn't the case at all in the light of what we have seen now. Although it would make sense there are individual differences between humans.

[Ryllharu]

The monk was weakened severely by the false monoshiro's illusion, but what did him in were the larger, savage species of queerrat. That clan was much larger and more human like in shape. The more spectacular attack he made, the more he obscured their outlines, making them look even more human-shaped.

He did himself in.

One might argue that Squealer's infiltrator sub-variant would cause the same effect, but they got close enough that it was pretty obvious from their ugly mugs that they weren't human.

[Buffalobiian]

Haha, now that would be sweet irony. Most of the town is dead, and then they realise they don't have death feedback and would thus have been able to get rid of the fiend? Nah, I don't think so. I don't see it overly likely the head honcho uber priest leader monk with two irises per eye would have a full death feedback and two random youngsters wouldn't.

Quite the contrary actually. As a village you'd want to make sure your most powerful cantus user wasn't able to kill people left/right/center. As far as humans went, all he had to do was overpower your cantus in order to immobilise you (or just render you powerless) while cats killed you off. (This is assuming you're just a bad human and not a fiend/KD).

I suspected whether or not the kids had it because Satoru's cantus was restored by Saki and Saki's cantus was restored by Shun. That said, all the priest actually did was seal their cantus so there isn't any strong indication that their death feedback was also revoked (and thereby needed to be re-hypnotised into it).

[MFauli]

Can someone please explain to me in detail why Shisei was killed? It wasn´t death feedback, but "leaked cantus". Whats that about?

Anyway, great episode. Well, except for EVERY human being being super obnoxious. I hate Saki for still freaking out at this point in time. I hate Shisei´s arrogance. And I hate how Saki and Satoru fail to realize that what the one queerat told them rang all too true (cantus users having queerats live under their tyranny).



I so should have replaced MFauli's avatar with Yakomaru's mug 2 weeks ago.


:-o

[shinta|hikari]

I honestly thought that I underestimated the intelligence of the queerats until their world conquest plan was revealed. Then I just loled.

One of these Fiend children will inevitably enter a rebellious phase way before they reach that goal.

[Buffalobiian]

I honestly thought that I underestimated the intelligence of the queerats until their world conquest plan was revealed. Then I just loled.

One of these Fiend children will inevitably enter a rebellious phase way before they reach that goal.

Now I really need to know where Maria and Mamoru are.. (I'm assuming Yakomaru poisoned/infected them or something..)


Can someone please explain to me in detail why Shisei was killed? It wasn´t death feedback, but "leaked cantus". Whats that about?

No idea.. (and fuck you're ugly. I regret saying that.)

[Ryllharu]

Assuming my, "Maria and Mamoru's child is not a true Fiend, just an utterly undisciplined Cantus user" theory is right, he has no subconscious control over his cantus at all. The series been clear that all the years of schooling combined with the innate "unknown beyond the holy barrier" are meant to limit the damage done by subconscious Cantus leakage.

This "Fiend" is actually more like a Fiend combined with a Karma Demon. It's an power-mad, rage-filled Esper.

When the "fiend's" undisciplined attacks failed to work on Shisei, the child obviously began to wonder why it wasn't working the way he was used to. As he continued to imagine how it should be working, his subconscious took hold and killed Shisei in a more passive way. The same way a Karma Demon can't help by warp the world around them, the "fiend" eventually managed to make the world match with the subconscious thought that Shisei should be killed by his Cantus.

In contrast, Shisei, who has expert control over his Cantus, could easily deflect any active attack. But as he is not Karma Demon, the subconscious side to his Cantus will not be able to keep him alive and continually deflect the "fiend's" subconscious will to see him dead.

Shisei is too in control to warp reality, while the "fiend" warps it non-stop. It's just that usually, the "fiend's" active thoughts are the same, every foe he comes across should be dead.

[shinta|hikari]

I agree. The child's leaking cantus killed Shisei because he couldn't see it coming. Shun wiped out his entire family subconsciously, so it is not surprising that cantus leakage is more than capable of killing people. Shun's incident also shows that there is no reliable way for outsiders to prevent or control cantus leakage, so Shisei was powerless against it.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 22 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=409137)

[David75]

Humans are idiots in that show.

Why would you want Kiromaru and Yakomaru+troops with you when you find PsychoBuster?

That's the ideal biological weapon against any and all Cantus users... And I'm sure Yakomaru will easilly use and duplicate it.