Naruto Chapter 603

[Marik]

[MangaStream] Naruto c.603: SendSpace (http://www.sendspace.com/file/ppndij) | Online Viewing (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/84254315/1)

MangaPanda (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/603)

[EpyonNext]

Well that pretty much kills the theory that Obito inherited the Tobi mantle from Madara. Also explains why his ass was taller when fighting the Fourth.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

A lot of sitting around this chapter but I still enjoyed it. The ending was cool and it set up next week's perfectly.

[rockmanj]

The scene where it looks like Obito was whacking it made me laugh when Kakashi showed up like -_-.

[Prof. Chaos]

All those flashbacks, could that be the Zetsu's doing some sort of genjutsu on him over time, making him gradually forget and hate Kakashi?

[viperwasp]

All those flashbacks, could that be the Zetsu's doing some sort of genjutsu on him over time, making him gradually forget and hate Kakashi?

No I don't think it's anything like that. Only motivation to grow strong during his short montage there. The hate for Kakashi will come probably at the death of rin.... which was probably setup by Madara! But maybe not. There might be more to it then just rin dying. But at this point I think that might be all that will be needed. The current Obito in the fight against Naruto and the others seemed pretty sure of himself when he said the reason was that Kakashi let Rin die.

I feel like that somewhere along the line Rins death is going to be the fault of either Madara, or Obito himself perhaps both.

[Kensee]

"Even the dead can be revived."

The only way Obito will see/be with Rin again, is for this plan to work. That is his motivation.

edit: I may have just forgotten, but what is the demon statue made out of? 1st Hokage nature element stuff?

[UChessmaster]

How come "not Obito" doesn`t turns off his sharingan, he should be able to do so right?

[Sidnne]

"Even the dead can be revived."

The only way Obito will see/be with Rin again, is for this plan to work. That is his motivation.

Why couldn't he just have her revived with the edo tensei? Then she would be revived for real, and not just in a dream world.

[Tofu #2]

Why couldn't he just have her revived with the edo tensei? Then she would be revived for real, and not just in a dream world.

because then she would have been a fucking zombie. plus edo tensei didn't show up until right before the war started, and then he would also need her dna. It would make more sense to revive her with Nagato like he was gonna do to Madara, but it seems like he's after more than just her revival and 100% believes in the moon eye plan.

[Assertn]

Nothing to complain about this chapter. Which also means I don't really have anything to contribute, sadly. Next week should clear up a lot of the remaining plot holes.

[Kensee]

because then she would have been a fucking zombie. plus edo tensei didn't show up until right before the war started, and then he would also need her dna. It would make more sense to revive her with Nagato like he was gonna do to Madara, but it seems like he's after more than just her revival and 100% believes in the moon eye plan.

What he said. Obito not into necrophilia, and since he can't revive using Nagato he's going for the whole "live in a false perfect dream world" plan.

The things a guy gotta do to get some in this crazy ninja world :rolleyes:

[Y]

Why couldn't he just have her revived with the edo tensei? Then she would be revived for real, and not just in a dream world.

You can't really ask questions like that because then you start wondering why everyone doesn't use Edo Tensei to literally solve all the problems in the world and create a utopia.

[Carnage]

Because Edo Tensei requires live sacrifice? I dont know if regular village people would be down with that.

[Y]

Because Edo Tensei requires live sacrifice? I dont know if regular village people would be down with that.

It requires a dead body, but there's no reason you couldn't use a recently dead person who died on the battlefield, or even better, just use the technique to resurrect the same person you just sacrificed. It'd be like going under for surgery. Me and DS hashed it out and determined that you could basically solve all societal problems with judicious use of Edo Tensei.

EDIT:

I actually just read that chapter where it has to kill a still-living person, but there's no reason you couldn't daisy-chain it to resurrect the soul of the person you just used previously, and have some death-row inmate provide the first sacrifice.

[UChessmaster]

OR, you could just use the moon eye plan and not have to single handedly murder EVERYONE.

[darkshadow]

You don't kill everyone obviously, fuck.

[Y]

It's not murder if it's just a stepping stone to get you in an immortal, invincible body.

[UChessmaster]

You don't kill everyone obviously, fuck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

OR, you could just use the moon eye plan and not have to single handedly murder A CONSIDERABLY ELEVATED AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. Better?

[Y]

You don't have to murder anyone. Only one person needs to die (as in actually be permanently dead) in order to chain-resurrect an infinite amount of people with Edo Tensei, and I'm sure someone would volunteer to sacrifice themselves for literally global utopia.

[poopdeville]

That's not such a bad idea, at least for a ninja village. I'm sure they'd get plenty of volunteers to die (i.e., be sacrificed) for the previous guy, knowing that somebody else is volunteering next. And when they run out of volunteers they could kill off Mizuki instead of letting him run wild in the anime fillers.

[Splash!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

OR, you could just use the moon eye plan and not have to single handedly murder A CONSIDERABLY ELEVATED AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. Better?

Actually, you WOULD have to kill everyone at least once if you want to make all of them immortal, even if you daisy chain it. You can't be resurrected as an immortal if you haven't died. Plus, if you want to bring back people from the past as well as make everyone in the present immortal, you would need more bodies than there are people...

So yeah, the moon eye plan has considerably less hassle and works better overall.

[Y]

Actually, you WOULD have to kill everyone at least once if you want to make all of them immortal, even if you daisy chain it. You can't be resurrected as an immortal if you haven't died. Plus, if you want to bring back people from the past as well as make everyone in the present immortal, you would need more bodies than there are people...

So yeah, the moon eye plan has considerably less hassle and works better overall.

You don't have to permanently kill everyone, just put them into the Edo Tensei and immediately resurrect them. It's not "death" it's more like a surgical procedure you go under for.

The Infinite Tsukiyomi would end the human race, not create a utopia, since everyone under the genjutsu is going to die of starvation pretty quickly.

[Sidnne]

The Infinite Tsukiyomi would end the human race, not create a utopia, since everyone under the genjutsu is going to die of starvation pretty quickly.

Not if they use the zetsu bodies so they don't have to eat or drink or take dumps anymore.

[Splash!]

You don't have to permanently kill everyone, just put them into the Edo Tensei and immediately resurrect them. It's not "death" it's more like a surgical procedure you go under for.

The Infinite Tsukiyomi would end the human race, not create a utopia, since everyone under the genjutsu is going to die of starvation pretty quickly.

I don't think it would go as smoothly as you think, especially if it is a prolonged process. What if some immortals decide they would rather resurrect someone from their past than someone from the present. There are only so many bodies to go around. It could lead to a real mess. I can already picture a scenario where immortals would keep farms of regular human beings and use them to bring back all sorts of people from the past, one by one.

Infinite Tsukiyomi on the other hand has the advantage of being instantaneous. No chance of conflict that could result from some people having immortality while others don't. Also, Tsukiyomi can completely alter one's perception of time. So it should be possible to create a faux eternity where only a moment has passed in the real world. They really won't have to worry about starvation for a long long time, and maybe by then they could figure out a way of getting out of the genjutsu world. They would literally have forever to think about it...

[poopdeville]

I don't think it would go as smoothly as you think, especially if it is a prolonged process. What if some immortals decide they would rather resurrect someone from their past than someone from the present. There are only so many bodies to go around. It could lead to a real mess. I can already picture a scenario where immortals would keep farms of regular human beings and use them to bring back all sorts of people from the past, one by one.

If they step out of line, they'd have their personalities erased and be put under the Kage's command. (At least, under this hypothetical scenario) This would mean no Uchiha could be revived, since TWO of them managed to get out from under the mind control aspect of Edo Tensai. But, otherwise, even two Hokage and lots of other dudes (including other Kage) couldn't manage it.

[Splash!]

If they step out of line, they'd have their personalities erased and be put under the Kage's command. (At least, under this hypothetical scenario) This would mean no Uchiha could be revived, since TWO of them managed to get out from under the mind control aspect of Edo Tensai. But, otherwise, even two Hokage and lots of other dudes (including other Kage) couldn't manage it.

Its not really a utopia anymore if you have to be mind controlled by some higher authority and can be erased if you step out of line...

[poopdeville]

Mind control only happens if their personalities are erased. It would be punitive.

For example, a guy like Kakashi would probably never betray Konoha, and so he would keep his free will for eternity. A guy like Orochimaru would (hypothetically) have had his mind wiped when he betrayed Konoha and became a missing nin.

Or are you complaining that this is a stratified social structure, with a Kage at the top? Defining utopia seems somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Splash!]

Or are you complaining that this is a stratified social structure, with a Kage at the top? Defining utopia seems somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.

I was considering the flaws of using Edo Tensei to "solve all the problems in the world and create a utopia", like Y had originally suggested.

I don't want to get into the specifics of defining a Utopia either, but I don't think making everyone immortal would go very far towards resolving conflict if there is still a way to mind control and erase their personalities. You have just introduced a mechanism for 'killing an immortal'. Now what is to stop different factions from fighting each other if there is a way to permanently erase them.

At the very least, I imagine World Peace to be a characteristic of a Utopia. Setting up a stratified social structure with checks and balances could go a long way towards mitigating conflict and preventing chaos (and is pretty much what people end up doing normally anyways), but it offers no guarantees of World Peace.

[poopdeville]

You have just introduced a mechanism for 'killing an immortal'. Now what is to stop different factions from fighting each other if there is a way to permanently erase them.


At the very least, information secrecy. Nobody but the Kages need to know how to kill off a zombie's personality. They're ninjas, right? They should be able to keep secrets.

Conflict will never be eliminated, because conflict is inherent to the world insofar as different people will always be in competition over scarce resources. Conflict can be resolved peacefully or through force. But removing the necessity for food, for example, eliminates a huge source of conflict -- people will actually fight for food, since they normally need it to live. Real wars are over necessities like food and water, or strategic resources to necessary to defend the sustainability of their economies.

By removing these physical needs, the only source of conflicts to remain will be unnecessary luxuries. Even if zombies do fight over them, nobody gets hurt (except a little butthurt for having their luxury item stolen -- I am ignoring scenarios like Shikamaru burying Hidan alive...). Suddenly, instead of war being a terrible burden to the world, it is just a minor inconvenience in an eternal future. Peace will be effectively redefined to include war, since it does no permanent harm, much like how shooting rubber bands at people does not preclude world peace.

Also, the zombies will have an eternity to learn these lessons.

Although this is all purely hypothetical, it does seem like a big WTF that none of the Kage, Orochimaru, etc. never thought of this.

[Splash!]

^ So going back to the point I have been making in my previous posts, Infinite Tsukiyomi already accomplishes all of that and happens instantaneously. You are assuming the preexistence of a well established society of immortal zombies. I have been saying the transformation into such a society poses a huge problem in itself, since it is likely to be a slow process. If you could turn everyone into an immortal zombie within a matter of seconds or minutes, it could probably work out, but I don't see that happening.

Also, I think its a pretty bad idea to let the Kages have complete control everyone. In a society of immortals, we have given a few select individuals with the power to control and pass judgement on everyone else (by erasing their personalities). What's to stop the one of the kages from exploiting this ability down the road.

[poopdeville]

^ So going back to the point I have been making in my previous posts, Infinite Tsukiyomi already accomplishes all of that and happens instantaneously. You are assuming the preexistence of a well established society of immortal zombies. I have been saying the transformation into such a society poses a huge problem in itself, since it is likely to be a slow process. If you could turn everyone into an immortal zombie within a matter of seconds or minutes, it could probably work out, but I don't see that happening.

I'm not presupposing anything. In particular, I explicitly mentioned that the zombies will have an eternity to learn the lessons of peace. You say "since [the transformation] is likely to be a slow process" but have provided no actual arguments or examples as to why that would cause a problem.

We already know what happens when a tyrant uses edo tensai. He raises an army to do his dirty work. But we're not talking about a tyrant. We're talking about the Hokage.

Also, how is the potential for coercion through mind control worse than the mind control the Moon's Eye Plan depends on?


Also, I think its a pretty bad idea to let the Kages have complete control everyone. In a society of immortals, we have given a few select individuals with the power to control and pass judgement on everyone else (by erasing their personalities). What's to stop the one of the kages from exploiting this ability down the road.

Presumably the fact that they are in charge, and would therefore have nothing to gain.

[Tofu #2]

If for this hypothetical situation to work, the hokage has control of everyone, he would need to be immortal to retain that control, so somebody would need to use edo tensei to revive him, and that person would have control of him.

[Splash!]

I'm not presupposing anything. In particular, I explicitly mentioned that the zombies will have an eternity to learn the lessons of peace. You say "since [the transformation] is likely to be a slow process" but have provided no actual arguments or examples as to why that would cause a problem.

Huh? I was talking about the daisy-chaining approach taking time. To convert a person into an immortal, you need to first kill them, then summon them using a living human being as a vessel. To get everyone to become an immortal, you need to repeat this process over and over again for all the human beings in the world. Of course it will take awhile...

"I explicitly mentioned that the zombies will have an eternity to learn the lessons of peace" <- You need all of them to become zombies before this even happens. During the slow conversion process, you will have a mixture of both immortals and regular human beings. And hence what I said earlier:


What if some immortals decide they would rather resurrect someone from their past than someone from the present. There are only so many bodies to go around. It could lead to a real mess. I can already picture a scenario where immortals would keep farms of regular human beings and use them to bring back all sorts of people from the past, one by one.




Also, how is the potential for coercion through mind control worse than the mind control the Moon's Eye Plan depends on?


In a world where everyone has been rendered unkillable, I don't see what is to be gained by giving someone that kind of control. That isn't the issue, the problem is making everyone an immortal to begin with. Sure, the Hokages can oversee the conversion process, but I am not so convinced they would be saintly enough to do whats fair from all the way to the end. What if one of them would rather a close relative or past acquaintance be revived? Doing so would leave one less vessel for the people in the present.

For the Moon's Eye plan, I am assuming the caster will be put under the same Genjustsu as everyone else. Furthermore, there are no limits on who can be "brought back".

[TwisT]

Zombies can't have children can they? So no one would be able to experience what it is to have children or family. I'm sure many would oppose such a thing.

[FireEmblem]

Edo tensei would in no way guarantee any sort of peace. Someone will figure out how to un-immortalize their enemies. Feuds run deeper than the need to eat...