Sword Art Online [Archive]

Archangel

Sat, 07-07-2012, 05:05 PM

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3676/swordartonlinekiritoasu.jpg

Alternative Title: ソードアート・オンライン

Type: TV
Episodes: 24?
Source: Light Novel
Producers: Aniplex, A-1 Pictures, Genco
Genres: Action, Adventure, Fantasy, Game, Romance

Synopsis: The only way to escape is to 'clear' the game. Death in game means actual 'death'

The ten thousand who have logged onto the as of yet mysterious game 'Sword Art Online' using their Nerve Gear have been forced into this perilous death game and are trapped inside.

Protagonist Kirito, one of the many gamers, has greeted this 'truth' amd plays as a solo player in the giant castle that is the stage for this game; 'Aincrad'.

To meet the conditions of clearing the game and leaving this twisted virtual world, he must get through all 100 floors. Will Kirito have what it takes to clear the game, or will he die trying?

Resources: ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=13858) | AniDB (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8692) | MyAnimeList (http://myanimelist.net/anime/11757/Sword_Art_Online)

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[Horrible subs] - 1080p (hhttp://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=329534) | 720p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=329532) | 480p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=329531)

shinta|hikari

Sat, 07-07-2012, 06:33 PM

That was orgasmic. They are doing a fantastic job in adapting this with all the necessary details included, even without narration.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 07-07-2012, 10:14 PM

I don't know what the intentions of the Game Master is (unless he's telling the truth), but this is the best way to teach someone about the value of the real world.

As the saying goes, "The best way to teach your child about money is to have none."

I hope Klein doesn't die, but that only makes him the perfect candidate for a death that will piss everybody off.

I wonder if you can have virtual babies in this game. Or how your body gets nutrition during the one month that you're lying on your bed getting bed sores....

shinta|hikari

Sat, 07-07-2012, 10:17 PM

I like how they kept most of the grim and dark elements from the novel. I hope this level of quality lasts until the last episode.

I knew it would happen, but I still LOLed at the faking couple after the mirror activation.

Inazuma

Sun, 07-08-2012, 02:58 AM

Klein has a Bernadotte-san side to him - I hope he'll come back as a badass leader in a pinch situation for the hero

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 07-08-2012, 04:56 AM

The only way for you to live any long period of time is for the people in the real world to move you to a hospital and hook you up to machines. In the novels, they mention that while you can't remove the NervGear, you can lose your internet connection for up to 2 hours or so before the helmet fries your brain. During the time when you're disconnected, NervGear is probably still intercepting signals to your body, but you're probably unconscious.
I imagine they wait until nighttime to disconnect you and move your body to a hospital, in the hopes that you're not in the middle of a battle in-game.

Kraco

Sun, 07-08-2012, 04:59 AM

Electronics are much more sensitive to microwaves than living tissue, so all one would need is a big enough microwave oven to fry the NerveGear, although it can't be so complicated a skilled technician/engineer couldn't disable it even without such drastic methods. But then again, that's hardly the point of this show, so I'll forgive such an unrealistic detail in the setting.

In reality 99%, at least, of the limited 10000 first participants would be guys, right? That's another exception from reality I will forgive more than happily.

I'm looking forward to some characters who'd actually enjoy this current state of affairs, regardless of their disposition otherwise. It's given there would be people who would actually enjoy slaying fellow players if PvP is possible. In fact Kirito's deep and sensible grasp of the situation could develop into enjoyment once he really gets into it.

Munsu

Sun, 07-08-2012, 04:28 PM

First episode was a bit uneven, but promising start with high production values. Will certainly keep watching.

Xelbair

Sun, 07-08-2012, 05:50 PM

That was orgasmic. They are doing a fantastic job in adapting this with all the necessary details included, even without narration.

Indeed, if they will keep it up it will be godly.
I'm wondering if they will use chronological order or go with vol1 fully -> side stuff afterwards.

I don't know what the intentions of the Game Master is (unless he's telling the truth), but this is the best way to teach someone about the value of the real world.

As the saying goes, "The best way to teach your child about money is to have none."

I hope Klein doesn't die, but that only makes him the perfect candidate for a death that will piss everybody off.

I wonder if you can have virtual babies in this game. Or how your body gets nutrition during the one month that you're lying on your bed getting bed sores....

There is a reason behind all of this, sir.

Electronics are much more sensitive to microwaves than living tissue, so all one would need is a big enough microwave oven to fry the NerveGear, although it can't be so complicated a skilled technician/engineer couldn't disable it even without such drastic methods. But then again, that's hardly the point of this show, so I'll forgive such an unrealistic detail in the setting.

In reality 99%, at least, of the limited 10000 first participants would be guys, right? That's another exception from reality I will forgive more than happily.

I'm looking forward to some characters who'd actually enjoy this current state of affairs, regardless of their disposition otherwise. It's given there would be people who would actually enjoy slaying fellow players if PvP is possible. In fact Kirito's deep and sensible grasp of the situation could develop into enjoyment once he really gets into it.

in novel most of players were male. Girls were really rare.

Alhuin

Mon, 07-09-2012, 02:39 AM

It's been a few seasons since I've decided to keep up with an anime, but I'm coming out of the shadows for this one.

I don't really have much to say about the first episode, besides that I enjoy the dark nature of it. And I can't decide if I like the main character's normal look or virtual look better.

Gotwoot is subbing this one, by the way. In a joint with UTW. Much better than HorribleSubs.

UTWoots - Sword Art Online 01 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=329745)

Ryllharu

Mon, 07-09-2012, 03:42 AM

I can tell it is going to be difficult to be able to enjoy this series. Due to the translated novel's popularity there are detailed spoilers (mostly character bios) all over the place. I hadn't even gotten around to watching the first episode before it happened. They're just thrown out there casually.

It's got promise though, and I like that it is supposedly in the same setting as Accel World. Interesting what a difference 24 years makes (Sword Art in 2022 and Accel World in 2046). You'd think that after something like this, they'd be incredibly strict in regards to people (and particularly the youth) getting their consciousness sent into VR worlds at all.

I take it that the Neuro-Linker has substantially higher safeguards over the NerveGear.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 07-09-2012, 03:46 AM

Ryllharu

Mon, 07-09-2012, 03:48 AM

Where were you prowling? I'll know not to go there.
AniDB was where I got spoiled, and I imagine any comments on sites like RandomC or similar are going to be loaded with them.

This happens every time with popular light novel series that are on Baka-Tsuki.

Kraco

Sat, 07-14-2012, 04:41 PM

Episode 2 - HS (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=331746)

- - - - - - -

I was kind of worried for a long while during this ep about Kirito looking kind of emo, so worried he seemed scared, and too weak. I guess he wasn't too weak in the end, only the last boss was helluva strong, but I was incredibly happy when he made his little speech with the theatrics, donned the coat, and left with the lone wolf attitude. Actually that attitude was so funny and promising that I almost wish Asuna doesn't stick around.

Ryllharu

Sat, 07-14-2012, 05:29 PM

Ugh, the Engrish.

There's only two things that "beater" should ever apply to:
One is someone who is...one-eye snake charming. Two is someone who runs into bushes to flush out game for hunters. I'm hoping that Kirito somewhat ends up being the latter. I expect he won't be teaming much after the word gets out, except for Boss battles. But he could at least run around all sneaky and help out other players while they are leveling on a floor.

I guess the other direction they could be going is that he's the one who will beat the game ultimately, so he's a "beater" of challenges.

Still super awkward.

From Asuna's speech about not wanting to just be sitting around in the first town, I take it most of the other actually female players stay out of danger the majority of the time. Maybe they spend most of the time playing as Smiths or Merchants like Ragnarok Online or something. There's no magic, but there are tons of skills. I assume that means not only combat-oriented ones.

Archangel

Sat, 07-14-2012, 05:56 PM

I don't think it actually means anything, Kirito just used the name to distinguish between beta testing noobs and beta testing assholes. He made himself out to be the asshole for the the well being of the entire game, batman style.

The lack of details bothers me, i wish i had a guidebook to how the game worked. Xelbair will have to do for now.

Dark Dragon

Sun, 07-15-2012, 12:28 AM

I'm also reading the novels, up to volume 7.

If you guys have any general question about game mechanics, just PM me. I don't really post since it's hard to discuss a lot of things without minor spoilers.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:36 AM

I expect he won't be teaming much after the word gets out, except for Boss battles.

I expect Asuna to be right back by his side next episode (if not that, then soon). Lone wolf needs quality company.

miyama_ryu

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:40 AM

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:00 AM

Kraco

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:03 AM

Asuna came across as being a little strange to me. She seems to be an absolute noob who does not even know about your name being on your life bar, Its like she has never played an MMO before. Yet she has some sick moves that even impresses Kirito. This makes her look like a verteran. So is she super talented? Or is she hiding something, like being a beta as well?

Being an MMO prodigy would be more sad than cool (unless she's Korean), so I'd rather hope she has lots of SP experience, has RL martial arts skills, or something else along those lines. Just being another beta tester would be a boring revelation. Even though I reckon having some female beta testers would be beneficial to a game, but for this game in particular it's not really of utmost importance since it's just a killing field envisioned by the madman creator.

David75

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:15 AM

We're not 100% sure people really die IRL. After all, everything they get can be altered. But it is better to think it truly is the case.
But since so many players are still in game after a full month when their real bodies should've dehydrated already, it might be the outside world had to tend to their body needs without logging them off.

I'm not into mmo or the likes, so I'm a total noob regarding references or the likes.
The only thing I get is that they need to fight for survival up to level 100, that the best beta tester only managed to get to level 8 and the real game is more difficult.

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:37 AM

I'm kind of sad they're skipping a lot of the side stories from the novels. They skipped the "First Day" story about what happens to Kirito after he abandons Klein in the starting city, and they only did about 1/4th of the content from Aria in the Starless Night. They also cut out one of my favorite side characters, and I doubt she'll be showing up later based on the next episode title.

I guess they just wanted to get to the boss battle, which kind of makes sense. You don't want the whole thing to be exposition.
I'll just leave these here for anyone who wants direct links to some novel content that won't have any spoilers. Obviously you won't want to go beyond these chapters.:
First Day - covers what happens to Kirito after he leaves Starting City on the first day of the game - http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Sword_Art_Online:Volume_8_Chapter_ 3
Aria in the Starless Night - Covers up to the end of episode 2 (pretty much ends at exactly the same point), but is significantly longer and has more characters (Argo the Rat) - http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Sword_Art_Online:Aria_in_the_Starl ess_Night

Uchiha Barles

Sun, 07-15-2012, 12:24 PM

We're only into episode 2 and already my expectations for the series took a severe blow. Why the hell would diabel refuse the potion? You die in real life if you die in the game dumb fuck. For something that silly to happen so early causes me to be unable to take the life/death thing seriously.

KrayZ33

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:04 PM

Potions are probably very expensive i guess
and since he wanted to atone for his sin (greed) he told him to keep the potion

Archangel

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:34 PM

There wasn't even a potion in the novel i think, that part was so weird.

I think i read somewhere that potions only heal per second though so it wouldn't have done any good anyway. Not sure though.

Kraco

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:43 PM

I took that scene in a way that the dude was already dead in practical terms (zero hp), but the game engine allowed some last words in the best dramaturgic manner.

Xelbair

Sun, 07-15-2012, 03:50 PM

Your HP bar doesn't decrease immediately after a blow - he knew that he was going to die anyways because potions aren't instant - they just speed up the regeneration.

Archangel

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:15 PM

I think i read somewhere that potions only heal per second though so it wouldn't have done any good anyway. Not sure though.

Your HP bar doesn't decrease immediately after a blow - he knew that he was going to die anyways because potions aren't instant - they just speed up the regeneration.
Muahahaha, kneel before my all knowing novelfaggotry!

Munsu

Sun, 07-15-2012, 04:58 PM

Archangel

Sun, 07-15-2012, 07:17 PM

I'll let it slide here, but please stop giving information that hasn't been provided in the anime. I'm sure all these things will be explained further in the series.

That said, enjoying this series so far and liked the turn of events towards the end with Kirito, makes for a much better character.
No they won't, this is the type of shit that gets released on websites and forums. The anime doesn't have time to go into such tiny details.

Munsu

Sun, 07-15-2012, 07:28 PM

No they won't, this is the type of shit that gets released on websites and forums. The anime doesn't have time to go into such tiny details.

Guess you're probably right, regardless I'd like to give the opportunity for the anime to explain itself in some manner. And you know, speculate instead of someone jumping in to spoon feed the answer.

But we'll see.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 07-15-2012, 07:51 PM

While I am also irritated at a lot of things they are skipping, I think it would be better for novel readers not to explain too much as well. I do want to at least defend the source material though, so I think saying that it actually made sense or had an explanation in the novel should be allowed.

Needless to say, that episode was a pretty horrible adaptation.

Archangel

Sun, 07-15-2012, 08:31 PM

Guess you're probably right, regardless I'd like to give the opportunity for the anime to explain itself in some manner. And you know, speculate instead of someone jumping in to spoon feed the answer.

But we'll see.
See, the thing is that if nobody explains these little tidbits everyone simply remains annoyed on particular scenes that didn't seem to make sense.

Barles was already going on about blown expectations when the reason was quite simple. I think we leave the matter alone and allow novel readers to reveal these little tidbits if and only if someone asks or refers to them directly in their posts.

Nobody will reveal any major or important plot details, we're all grown ass men who can tell the difference between clarifying and spoling >_>

Munsu

Sun, 07-15-2012, 08:37 PM

See, the thing is that if nobody explains these little tidbits everyone simply remains annoyed on particular scenes that didn't seem to make sense.

Barles was already going on about blown expectations when the reason was quite simple. I think we leave the matter alone and allow novel readers to reveal these little tidbits if and only if someone asks or refers to them directly in their posts.

Nobody will reveal any major or important plot details, we're all grown ass men who can tell the difference between clarifying and spoling >_>

There's PM, you can create a Light Novel thread in the appropriate section, you can allude to something vague without going into details to keep the interest up, etc. There's a myriad of ways to go about discussing this without spoiling details to those of us who don't want to be spoiled.

This is not the re-invention of the wheel. The anime section is a no-spoiler zone for a reason. For any other concern, please refresh our policy on spoilers:
http://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/13928-Gotwoot-Policy-on-Spoilers

And that's the end of the matter, so please don't derail the thread further than it already has.

Thanks.

deathnightwc3

Mon, 07-16-2012, 12:30 AM

First thing that came to mind was Lelouch when he basically made himself the focus of all the beta-tester hating.

Archangel

Mon, 07-16-2012, 03:11 AM

First thing that came to mind was Lelouch when he basically made himself the focus of all the beta-tester hating.
...really? Lelouch?

A dude dressed in black made himself out to be the villain for the greater good... and your mind went to Lelouch?

Uchiha Barles

Mon, 07-16-2012, 03:20 AM

After hearing some of the details, I guess it does make sense why he avoided taking the potion. Honestly, had I thought about it a bit, even without knowing the details, I could've surmised that he refused the potion because he knew it wouldn't work. The problem is that the scene was so poorly done (imho), I was blinded and I didn't even want to try to see. From the moment Diabel charged in, to the moment he died, I went into disbelief mode. If they're going to leave out details from the source material that make things clear, they need to do something in the adaptation to compensate. In this case, I was not immediately convinced as I was watching the scene that the wound was too grave for the potion to be effective. That disbelief intensified when Kirito got struck in a very similar fashion later in the fight. I guess I'll just get over how it was done and go with the spirit of things on this one.

A less crippling, but potentially longer lasting peeve, was how Kirito decided to handle the hatred towards beta testers by trying to concentrate the game population's hatred on himself. I mean...it's noble and all, but it hardly seemed like the only choice he had. It hardly seemed like the best choice he had. First off, he was yelling at the top of his lungs that the boss' weapon was different than what was shown in the beta. I'm sure a number of them heard. All he had to do was mention that and see if anyone who might've heard would back him up. Furthermore, I think there were at least a couple of people there who didn't jump to conclusions about his character. Egil comes to mind in this. These people would've quieted the group long enough for him to make some speech or another to set them straight. The group that killed the first boss would then hold status, and Kirito and his assassin lovely would hold status within that group, even if he decided to go at it solo afterwards. That status could then be used to open the lines of communication with the rest of the player base and disseminate proper information about the beta testers and their actions.

God help him if the server is PvP enabled. With your life on the line, you have to be cocksure or (and?) stupid as hell to purposely make yourself the focal point everyone in the game, assuming you have better options. But beyond the dangers he faces going this route, I fail to see what personal benefit he can get out of this. It's all risk and no apparent reward. That being said, a lone wolf, widely hated character is usually more fun to watch, particularly if the issues I mentioned are addressed.

fireheart

Mon, 07-16-2012, 04:08 AM

That disbelief intensified when Kirito got struck in a very similar fashion later in the fight.

Well no idea really but since it's suppose to be an MMO I just chalked it up to either level difference or better equipment.

Edit: Also Diabel got hit twice while Kirito got hit once.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 07-16-2012, 04:26 AM

Uchiha Barles

Mon, 07-16-2012, 05:06 AM

Whether he called out the weapon or not didn't matter, since most of them were dead set on him cheating anyway. Explanations woiuld have been palmed off. The only thing to do was to ride with their emotions and become the biggest bad guy they were making him out to be. It wasn't just that either, he managed to add to his speech that the entire group here is now better than any beta tester so they'll no longer suspect each other when someone performs well. He new that the group had to stay together if they were to survive. As for himself.. well he's been soloing since the start anyway. He can always join a mob whenever he needs to anyway. No one's going to refuse help from supposedly the strongest Beta tester in SAO (if they believe the story in the first place).

I simply disagree that most of them were dead set on him cheating. One guy is dead set on him cheating, Kibaou. He's racist against beta testers xD. What a lot of the others seem to be, is easily swayed. This means that a solid argument that's simple to get could sway them in the proper direction. We saw this happen already when Egil mentioned the booklet of data compiled by the beta testers. That put Kibaou right in his place after he tried to spread his paranoia the first time and it united everyone else.

After the fight, Kibaou came with his accusations, which are essentially the same, just this time, he could pinpoint a beta tester. Egil and Kirito on the other hand, had much more ammunition to argue and defend. First of all, the information concerning the boss and his tactics were accurate save for the weapon change, which Kirito noticed and warned about as the fight unfolded. That's why yelling it out and people being able confirm that he did was important. It shows that he was as forthcoming to the group as he could be. Second, Kirito realized that Diabel was a beta tester, and its clear that Diabel did do something noble in being relatively selfless in the use of his knowledge, even if he attempted to get the bonus phat lewt for himself. Third, he risked a lot himself and took much damage that fight, so it's not like he didn't contribute and risk much. Save for Diabel, he was the most important factor in them leaving that fight alive. All this would show that at least some of the beta testers, the ones present at that fight in particular, weren't terrible people.

Basically he was in a very good position to go up against Kibaou and sway the group. That position was solidified with Egil and whoever else had the wherewithal to listen and think. They would then argue on his behalf as well. All this actually gives Kirito the upper hand. Furthermore, if he decided to go on the offensive, he was in a very good position to put Kibaou in his place once and for all.

"This is the second time you've tried to spread your fear and bigotry, and the second time your cowardice exposed. I think I speak for all of us when I say we've had enough of that."

Again, this is because I did not see anything in the episode indicating that people other than Kibaou were dead set against Kirito and beta testers. They did not seem to be consumed by a mob mentality at that point. Even so though, lets assume Kirito's attempt to sway the group did fail. He *still* could've taken the path he ended up chosing after trying defend himself against the accusations.

As far as the risk he's put himself in, I just don't think it's a good idea to make the world your enemy. News of the events of that fight and its aftermath is going to spread like wildfire. He'll have enemies from the group he was in, and he'll have many more enemies he hasn't even had a chance to meet yet.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 07-16-2012, 05:27 AM

Uchiha Barles

Mon, 07-16-2012, 06:05 AM

On the other hand, I believe that all those arguments could have been used against him:

The boss information was correct until his weapon was drawn
-All a ploy to gain our trust

Kirito yelled out that the attack wasn't as written
-You didn't yell it out fast enough to save Diabel. It's just your farce to make it look like you warned him. Nothing was changed. You Beta Testers knew everything from the start.

Third, he risked a lot himself and took much damage that fight, so it's not like he didn't contribute and risk much. Save for Diabel, he was the most important factor in them leaving that fight alive.

-You knew the boss's attack patterns. There's no way you would have died. You joined this fight to get the final-attack bonus item. Diabel died. We're just lucky to be alive. Who knows how many of us you'll sacrifice for your plans in the next fight.

The book kicked back off of the paranoid guy's arguments, but if Kirito tried arguing here it would have backfired.

All the mob knows is that their leader died (who they didn't know was a beta tester, and Kirito doesn't want to reveal that neither) while following an apparently sound plan, and they've got someone surprisingly strong that they can pin the responsibility on.

Why would they try to fight him and risk being killed?

Oh, yes his points certainly could be contorted, but Kibaou would have to do way better than that. Everyone knew the attack patterns by the time they fought the boss. If they didn't read the booklet, that particular information was read to them from the booklet by Diabel. Furthermore, the sword having changed from Beta means that Kirito did NOT know ahead of time how the boss would attack at that point in the fight, and he took a near deadly blow on account of that. Besides those relatively feeble attempts, everything else is grasping for straws. No one halfway sensible would see the information in the book being correct save for the new sword, AND realizing that the sword was different from what was in the beta, would come to the conclusion that the book was a simply a ploy to gain trust. You can't expect the beta testers to know of things that were not present in the beta. And each point Kirito is able to debunk would make every other point (of the ones you mentioned) weaker because they depend on each other in that they're mostly attacks against Kirito's character. It's just too easy to make this guy look stupid because the strength of anything he could pull is simply weaker than what Kirito could pull.

As to why Kirito doesn't want to reveal that Diabel was a beta tester...I have no clue why. It would be to his advantage if this argument took place. You miiiiiiiiiiiiiiight be right that Kirito trying to argue the point you mentioned would've failed. But Kirito wouldn't be arguing alone, Egil would've helped, and so would anyone else who could listen and make a decision after having listened. Most of the group showed that ability when Egil first argued against Kibaou. That's a big point here. Kirito's stronger position along with support from the more reasonable members of the group would've just ruined Kibaou. What charisma Kirito might've lacked, Egil had in abundance.

As far as why people would attack him...I'm not sure. If player vs. player exists in this game though, I would assume that there are rewards for participating in it. Those rewards would be incentive for people to attack him. For example, maybe that black coat he got from the boss is an awesome item. An equally cocksure player might attack him to try and take it from his corpse (if that's allowed). Or maybe, a group of people who otherwise wouldn't attack him might think that he doesn't deserve that item because of his deception, and that item's power is better used by a group that's not as horrible as he is. They'd gang bang him for it, particularly since he's a solo player. Since power is directly related to survivability in that game, taking powerful items from opponents is incentive to attack them.

@Kraco below: With the exception of notoriety, there is nothing you mentioned that he couldn't have gained without becoming a focal point for everyone's fear and anger. His strength was established by that fight, and it is that stregth that strong characters are going to take note of. If playing the game solo would make them take even more notice of his strength and this is a goal of his, he could just drop the group and keep going through the game solo...without having everything think he's a douche. As of right now, I just don't see any benefit to him to be seen as evil, mean, etc. He could have done the solo thing without all that.

Kraco

Mon, 07-16-2012, 06:09 AM

Considering how Kirito was so quick to go solo from the beginning, I reckon he did what he did here because he wanted to do it and it suits his ego. Maybe he really wanted to divert attention away from beta testers at large like some martyr, but that doesn't need to be the biggest reason. Now he's not just any nameless victim in the game anymore, but something more, an individual with a dangerous reputation. With log-out missing, this is now their life, so he might as well make something out of it. He might have made enemies especially among the petty types seeking to blame anybody for their misery, but, like Bill said, this also means he might get the attention of strong types as well, if they judge him useful in bigger fights. It's better to form a group with tough players, not weaklings if your life depends on it. He might miss chances to hoard more last hit bonuses, but that desire didn't end too well for Diabel.

Only the petty suckers would immediately believe everything he said, anyway. More potent players out there would take it with a grain of digital salt.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-16-2012, 08:35 AM

Mobs (player, not monster) are stupid. Do not expect them to be the least bit rational.

The best part about this episode was Asuna eating the bread, and that was only because I knew her face and had to imagine her expression under the hood.

Yukimura

Mon, 07-16-2012, 03:33 PM

Kraco

Mon, 07-16-2012, 04:23 PM

The last hit bonus seems like a really lame game mechanic if all the bosses are going to require team based takedowns like what we saw in ep 2. However, we know the programmer is a sadist so in that regard it makes perfect sense, giving unfair loot distribution that encourages behavior like Diabel's is just another mindscrew for the poor players.

It's indeed bad business for temporary groups and teamwork such as we saw in this episode, but thus it would in fact encourage forming a real group by people who can trust each other. Because then they could simply redistribute the gear among themselves. They could even try to distribute the last strikes themselves, but if all the bosses are as strong as this one, that might rarely be a viable option.

Like I said earlier, there's no merit whatsoever for Kirito to stick around these weaklings (aside from the beauty). While I think his speech was half about boosting his ego (including a martyrdom), I still think he also fancies a reputation, even notorious. In any case it was within his interests to get rid of these people who were of little use in the fight but of much annoyance outside of it. This should have taken care of that. The only thing that would have made me like his character development more would have been to grab Asuna and tell the losers that he will take the chick as well, not only the last hit bonus.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 07-16-2012, 10:08 PM

Kirito isn't really a people person, so this was probably the easier way out for him.

deathnightwc3

Sat, 07-21-2012, 06:28 PM

[HorribleSubs]Sword Art Ep 3 720p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=334045)

Archangel

Sat, 07-21-2012, 07:33 PM

As rushed as it was, amazing episode.

I hope they eventually stabilize the rhythm though, this could grow to be really tiresome.

deathnightwc3

Sat, 07-21-2012, 07:35 PM

I thought it was really weird how they left off with him being a solo player in episode 2 and in the beginning of episode 3 he joins a party then guild. Other than that, it was an amazing episode.

Uchiha Barles

Sat, 07-21-2012, 08:36 PM

Oh man I loled xD. T'was a hearty lol from a deep place! I nearly laughed to death when that guy in the light brown cloak got pick axed to death. It was like those idiots never played an adventure game before, or saw a fantasy movie. "Oooooh! Secret door with an unguarded treasure chest? Not a single monster present up to this point? How lucky are *we*?!?" It was obvious that guild was going to get slaughtered with all the carefree attitude going unchecked and Kirito telling Sachi she wouldn't die (lol), but I didn't think it'd be so funny.

That aside, pacing is really killing this anime. I haven't read the light novel this apparently comes from, but watching that last episode still felt like watching something like, say, Unlimited Bladeworks. Kirita's relationship with the guild members needed to be developed further for there to be a real emotional impact at their loss (besides whatever emotion you feel when laughing at a joke). There was a group PvP fight that really should've been shown in detail, and Kleine crying because he wants Kirito to live....seems unfounded. I don't see why, based on how and how much their relationship developed, he would care enough to shed a single tear. I'm sure a better job was done in the light novel, but again, there's a severe lack in exposition here. Everything is present for a very good story, but not enough of these things are developed, and it's a shame.

shinta|hikari

Sat, 07-21-2012, 10:07 PM

This should have been longer than 26 episodes, period.

animus

Sat, 07-21-2012, 10:20 PM

Oh man I loled xD. T'was a hearty lol from a deep place! I nearly laughed to death when that guy in the light brown cloak got pick axed to death. It was like those idiots never played an adventure game before, or saw a fantasy movie. "Oooooh! Secret door with an unguarded treasure chest? Not a single monster present up to this point? How lucky are *we*?!?" It was obvious that guild was going to get slaughtered with all the carefree attitude going unchecked and Kirito telling Sachi she wouldn't die (lol), but I didn't think it'd be so funny.

That aside, pacing is really killing this anime. I haven't read the light novel this apparently comes from, but watching that last episode still felt like watching something like, say, Unlimited Bladeworks. Keita's relationship with the guild members needed to be developed further for there to be a real emotional impact at their loss (besides whatever emotion you feel when laughing at a joke). There was a group PvP fight that really should've been shown in detail, and Keita crying because he wants Kirito to live....seems unfounded. I don't see why, based on how and how much their relationship developed, he would care enough to shed a single tear. I'm sure a better job was done in the light novel, but again, there's a severe lack in exposition here. Everything is present for a very good story, but not enough of these things are developed, and it's a shame.

You're using the wrong names a lot. You mean Kirito's relationship with the guild members (instead of Keita's relationship). And you mean Klein crying when he wants Kirito to live (not Keita again). Keita was the leader of the Black Cats guild that jumped off.

Uchiha Barles

Sat, 07-21-2012, 10:38 PM

You're using the wrong names a lot. You mean Kirito's relationship with the guild members (instead of Keita's relationship). And you mean Klein crying when he wants Kirito to live (not Keita again). Keita was the leader of the Black Cats guild that jumped off.

My apologies, not sure what I was smoking. Editing that now.

miyama_ryu

Sun, 07-22-2012, 04:53 AM

That aside, pacing is really killing this anime. I haven't read the light novel this apparently comes from, but watching that last episode still felt like watching something like, say, Unlimited Bladeworks. Kirita's relationship with the guild members needed to be developed further for there to be a real emotional impact at their loss (besides whatever emotion you feel when laughing at a joke). There was a group PvP fight that really should've been shown in detail, and Kleine crying because he wants Kirito to live....seems unfounded. I don't see why, based on how and how much their relationship developed, he would care enough to shed a single tear. I'm sure a better job was done in the light novel, but again, there's a severe lack in exposition here. Everything is present for a very good story, but not enough of these things are developed, and it's a shame.

I think it should be pretty obvious that they are rushing through these early arcs to leave space to cover the later levels where stakes are a lot higher to cover those in more detail. As exposition episodes, these three episodes I consider achieves their point, the first episode gets them into the world and establishes their premises. The second episode is the fateful meeting of Kirito and Asuna. The third episode I think will provide the motivation for Kirito to become a lone wolf, since it would be lame if the only reason was because he is a beater. So take this into account and watch on, for sure these are rushed, but in episodes to come, when the gear is up a few notches, you will be glad they rushed these. But on the other hand, if on episode 13 they end up doing a beach episode, it will serious e-smack them.

Kraco

Sun, 07-22-2012, 04:58 AM

This should have been longer than 26 episodes, period.

With this pacing it seems like they must be aiming for 13 episodes. The beginning of this episode was simply unreal considering how the previous episode ended. It's really killing this, like Barles said. I don't know if this is still supposed to be some kind of intro to the world, but it certainly feels like that. I really hope it will slow down and start to build solid progress and character development.

But that being said, just like with the second episode, I was actually pretty pleased how this third episode as well pushed Kirito toward the lonely wolf position in the end. I hope the Christmas card didn't totally shatter that but only made him value his own life a bit better. I like Kirito taking risks but not risking his life for sentimental purposes of no concrete value to anybody.

Ryllharu

Sun, 07-22-2012, 05:04 AM

Filler or no, rushed or no, as a stand alone episode, this was a damn good episode. Leaps and bounds better than last episode.

NeoCybercoin

Sun, 07-22-2012, 06:17 AM

Episode 3 and he is most likely already in his mid 50's. Anyone know the level cap? Because if he keeps on leveling like this he'd reach 100 in no time.

David75

Sun, 07-22-2012, 07:14 AM

I wonder when they'll be faced with the obligation to kill each other for survival...

KrayZ33

Sun, 07-22-2012, 07:17 AM

didn't that just happen with the Divine Dragons guild?
the show ist awesome, I just wish it would be longer and thus a bit more detailed.

his "beater status" seems to be of no concern anymore, thats a shame

Uchiha Barles

Sun, 07-22-2012, 07:33 AM

Well, Keita did say something to the effect of "You're a beater you had no business hanging with us!" right before he jumped to his death. Seems to me like the guild didn't know about his status before hand, and when Keita found out, he was pissed.

Which reminds me, it kind of is Kirito's fault that guild got destroyed. With his presence, their encounters in the game were probably significantly easier. Not realizing that Kirito was of a much higher level than they were, they probably misjudged the difficulty of the content they were facing. Sure, they were kind of dumb to fall into an obvious trap, but part of that dumbness was most likely influenced by a false sense of security stemming from Kirito's presence and deception.

David75

Sun, 07-22-2012, 07:52 AM

but part of that dumbness was most likely influenced by a false sense of security stemming from Kirito's presence and deception.

Yup.
Kirito was always backing them up. When he fails, everyone dies but him since he still has just what it takes to save his ass... but not enough margin to save anyone else.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-22-2012, 08:10 AM

Yup.
Kirito was always backing them up. When he fails, everyone dies but him since he still has just what it takes to save his ass... but not enough margin to save anyone else.

Which is funny because that was the very reason why he refused to take Klein's friend when he offered to fast-track at the beginning.

A lot of this actually happens because the groups employ Kirito as a helper/consultant instead of a leader. Everybody else makes the calls.. then when Kirito notices and tries to call them back, they're as good as dead. Leading probably puts Kirito off, so he's destined to be solo or at most, form a partnership.

Kraco

Sun, 07-22-2012, 09:04 AM

The scene at the beginning of this episode, when he was convinced to join that group, showed without question just how much he's lacking in leadership charisma in normal human interactions. The end of the second ep and for example his meeting with Klein before and after the spruce boss fight demonstrated, however, that he's not lacking in the particular lone wolf charisma whenever he's pushed back to realising that suits him best (at this point, anyway). I reckon he might fare much better in a less tight group of strong fighters, who don't need a leader and are less dependent on each other, only fighting for a common purpose (end bosses) and having fun with each other.

Dark Dragon

Sun, 07-22-2012, 11:46 AM

While i think this story would've been better spread over 2 episodes. This as a stand alone episode is still very well done.

It does lacks the emotional impact because we didn't have time to know the character and the lack of narrator really hurt this show. There's plenty of small detail that would've been beneficial for the audience to know through Kirito as a narrator like in the books.

shinta|hikari

Sun, 07-22-2012, 01:13 PM

I wonder why they did not use Kirito as a narrator at least in some parts. Some internal monologue to explain things a bit should not ruin the feel of the show at all.

David75

Sun, 07-22-2012, 01:39 PM

Well, narration slows down the pace. And it seems they are in a hurry. So they probably had to slash through a lot, probably to keep only the cool/flashy parts for fans.

Dark Dragon

Sun, 07-22-2012, 02:41 PM

The problem is i don't see the need to rush.

minor length spoiler:

This entire story arc is just volume 1 along with a a few side stories that makes up volume 2. Highschool Dxd was able to easily fit 2 volumes into 12 episodes so even at regular pacing there isn't really a need to go so fast.

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 07-22-2012, 03:43 PM

I think they're going to try to fit through Volume 4 in the anime.

Regarding this episode, overall pretty good. They just should have added the small detail that Kirito knew the traps from the floor they died on and up were significantly harder, but didn't tell them about it.

I was also happy to see the information broker, since they cut her out of episode 2.

Archangel

Sun, 07-22-2012, 05:42 PM

Yeah i was happy to see Argo, she seems a cool character.

I've been reading the volumes that they've adapted so far and i think they did a pretty good job.

deathnightwc3

Sat, 07-28-2012, 04:46 PM

[HorribleSubs]Sword Art Online ep 04 1080p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=336151)
[HorribleSubs]Sword Art Online ep 04 720p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=336150)

Archangel

Sat, 07-28-2012, 05:24 PM

Nerf Kirito plx.

Ryllharu

Sat, 07-28-2012, 06:34 PM

Kirito just needs to stop hanging out in lower-level areas in an attempt to impress girls.

Sat, 07-28-2012, 08:14 PM

I gave this show a shot. Yes, I watched an anime. It's pretty inoffensive and has a certain charm. The art and animation are bland. I did laugh a little at some of the MMO jokes like the first enemy being a boar and the clingy guy who wants to level with you. That being said, three's really nothing with substance here. The second episode introduces Asuna the ridiculous walking cliche, and the guys we meet in episode three are no better - they're obviously marked for death the second Kirito lies about his level to them and barely exist aside from that. There's no emotion from a shitty fake tearjerking scene for a character we don't know or care about. I love the sepia toned flashbacks for a dead girl who was in the show all of ten minutes.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 07-28-2012, 10:48 PM

Nerf Kirito plx.

Nah, it's like Ryll says, it'll all be fixed once Kirito goes back to a more challenging level with people of his calibre.

I enjoyed this episode regardless. It feels so boss to completely own everybody, even if a little boring.

Reminds me of my skyrim character (that I replayed recently in anticipation for Dawnguard) at lvl61 who can beat anything if I slightly try. She wears a shirt because armour is too OP.

The imouto was cute too. Her undressed look confused me and I thought I was seeing a miniature Asuna.

deathnightwc3

Sat, 07-28-2012, 10:49 PM

I pretty much agree, I do like the anime for what it is, but it just hasn't built up any storyline to follow.

KrayZ33

Sun, 07-29-2012, 04:05 AM

evertyhing is going to fast man, how come Kirito is so famous now
its awesome as it is, but it could be even better

can't say I didn't enjoy him outgearing dem noobs, but lvl 72 now? thats ~20+ levels each ep so far. (if you count ep 1 as a prolouge)
is it over at lvl 100? (100 floors each floor 1 level?)

I pretty much agree, I do like the anime for what it is, but it just hasn't built up any storyline to follow.

don't know about that, the goal is to get out of the game and thats done by clearing all floors, so as long as they advance in floor numbers the story is making progress.
I really want to know how this show is going to end and what is going to happen to everyone and especially the GM

Sun, 07-29-2012, 12:30 PM

don't know about that, the goal is to get out of the game and thats done by clearing all floors, so as long as they advance in floor numbers the story is making progress.

The goal of the show isn't for Kirito to escape from the game, it's for me to give a shit that he did so. There's little life to Kirito's character and everything else exists as a series of barely fleshed out cliches. There's not a lot of world building, dialogue is almost purely expository instead of doing character work, and like you said, the plot is advanced by a number changing (which itself is a fairly cute commentary on MMO gaming). He basically just wanders around and grinds offscreen, with no continuity to stitch the events in the first few episodes together in a meaningful fashion.

I think there is something that could be done with Kirito's character, although I doubt the show will do so. Kirito seems almost like a sociopath, not just your garden variety MMO loner. He understands and sympathizes with the maniac game designer, his home life was portrayed entirely by a voice from outside a closed door, he obviously can't relate to human beings, and he's actually thrilled at the prospect of living vicariously through his online persona. When confronted about his beta test experience he brags about how amazing he was, drawing even more ire onto himself, because he has the social skills of a serial killer. Presumably by the end of the show he will open up somewhat, but I'd like to see a much more cynical take on a main character like him.

Ryllharu

Sun, 07-29-2012, 12:59 PM

Allegedly, this recent material is all filler written after the main story. I'm told the anime is presenting the material in chronological order, whereas the novel just jumps right ahead.

But I agree completely. There's a pathetic excuse for "character development" for Kirito. This whole episode, we learned just one thing about him, his guilt about his sister/cousin. But even that comes out of nowhere, and serves no purpose aside from his motivation to help the girl here...which they largely rescind when it's revealed he was doing it for a completely different reason. I guess we don't even know if it was all a lie.

deathnightwc3

Sun, 07-29-2012, 05:44 PM

I would actually like to see an episode dedicated to the front lines, enough of this 'hang around lowbies' episodes. :P

Hitokiri

Sun, 07-29-2012, 06:10 PM

shinta|hikari

Sun, 07-29-2012, 06:42 PM

I loved this episode. I enjoy it when the protagonist is actually bad ass, and there is nothing more bad ass than not being able to die even if you don't do anything.

This is a 26 episode show. Be patient and all of this information will make sense eventually.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-29-2012, 07:32 PM

Ryllharu

Sun, 07-29-2012, 08:37 PM

I'm not in agreement with Ryll here. Episode 2 showed how Kirito made a name for himself as well as the general "frontline beta" category Beater. Episode 3 showed how being Kirito/beater is perceived negatively by the lower ranking players, while episode 4 showed being in such a class reflects positively (accepting requests, helping people get important items when they need them).Yeah, and none of that translates to knowing anything about Kirito, and in what way or even if he's changed.

Episode 4: After we found out his reason for helping her was different that what he claimed (she was just bait anyway), we honestly don't know if he was giving her saying anything true, or if it was just a complete line of crap, only saying it for the benefit of his true prey to drop their guard a bit.

Episode 3: Like you said, he clearly wasn't too traumatized by all of them getting slaughtered on his watch and the last committing suicide, since he just picked up and carried on. I suppose he was a bit more cautious this time, but on the other hand...all of the guild members had warp crystals too, they just got blocked from using them by the trap. So again, nothing really changed there after all. He's no more or less cautious with his party members than he was before. He's just an even higher level.

Episode 2: All in all, it's really not any different from episode 1. He still runs off to do his own thing. He refused the offer to play along as a team member in favor of bum rushing to the quick leveling spots in the first episode, and he did the same thing here. The only difference is he told people that is what he was going to do, instead of slinking off. You can't really call that any sort of character development.

Name anything that's changed from the first episode about Kirito. He's still selfishly running about, taking pride in the fact that he's stronger/smarter than basically anyone else, using limited-release knowledge for his own ends, and occasionally helping noobs, but refusing to put any trust in them. It's been four episodes, it's still the same information you could glean from the first episode.

Sun, 07-29-2012, 08:46 PM

Buffalobiian

Sun, 07-29-2012, 10:34 PM

Here's my problem. The huge amounts of exposition don't even explain major plot elements like whether or not Kirito is lying about having advanced very far in the game during the beta, which is (as far as I can tell) not intended to be ambiguous. You could assume he was telling the truth about his advanced knowledge and then you have to justify his random, pointless lie about only having advanced to floor eight. If you assume he is lying about his advanced knowledge and skill then it raises a whole bunch of other questions. Either way it makes him out to be a weird, lying asshole.

Kirito advanced to the 8th Floor in the beta like he says. There's no reason to lie about that here. The fact that he only managed to break through the first floor in the real SAO with a party means that the beta was significantly different and perhaps harder. He's been on the forefront ever since. He's not necessarily ahead of absolutely everyone else in terms of clearing floors - but he clears the same floors as the lead group (taking care of zones?) by being solo.. so he does the same shit alone while others do it in groups. He's superior.

@Ryll: Kirito hasn't changed overall too much, but it was about him going through phases of experiencing situations where his involvement helps people vs situations where his involvement was detrimental to people. I'll agree that in the end it was pretty much zero-sum.. though perhaps Kirito got a bit more of a confidence boost since the positive case happened later in time.

Dark Dragon

Sun, 07-29-2012, 10:37 PM

The main problem so far is that the anime is going in chronological order.

Episode 2,3 and 4 are all side stories written after the conclusion of the main story in volume 1. Which mean the author wrote these with the assumption that whoever is reading them already know Kirito from all of the information disclosed in volume 1. These chapters are just meant to offer some more extra information while introducing some side characters.

Most of your complaints about lack of character development mostly stem from the fact that majority of Kirito's development happened in the main storyline (as it should be). It's probably a mistake for the animation studio to decide to have the anime follow a chronological order instead.

With that said, most of your questions will be answered in time so have patience, or just go read the light novel.

It might also help to know that episode 4 in the novel is from the perspective of the girl, so everything that happened was just her takes of the event. It was intended to leave Kirito personality and character as slightly ambiguous.

Mon, 07-30-2012, 11:06 AM

Kirito advanced to the 8th Floor in the beta like he says. There's no reason to lie about that here. The fact that he only managed to break through the first floor in the real SAO with a party means that the beta was significantly different and perhaps harder. He's been on the forefront ever since. He's not necessarily ahead of absolutely everyone else in terms of clearing floors - but he clears the same floors as the lead group (taking care of zones?) by being solo.. so he does the same shit alone while others do it in groups. He's superior.

Here's the thing. None of that makes a lick of sense. If the beta was so hard why was the first floor more difficult on live? If he only made it to floor eight, why did he say he was the best player in beta? 8 out of 100 sounds like he sucks ass. The subsequent episodes certainly make it seem like he is aware of hazards on levels much higher than that due to having already completed them on the beta, and he says he knew about the boss's nodachi ability due to having fought enemies with that sword on a much higher level. The only way to explain that is if, like you said, he is off raiding with the top level teams entirely offscreen, which is what I would consider the meat of the story here, not him doddering around getting people killed in the newbie zone.

In fact, it really makes no sense for him to be any good at the game. MMORPGs are fundamentally social games. Games like WoW are extremely easy from the perspective of the amount of skill any given individual has to contribute to his role, and difficult in the sense that you must organize and coordinate efforts among many group members appropriately. It's literally impossible to be any good at it as a lone player. This game clearly requires raid combat to defeat even the simplest floor boss if you're appropriately leveled, so what he is actually doing in the initial episodes is power leveling alone and defeating raid bosses WAY below his level. That doesn't make him any good.

@ Dark Dragon: I don't care how this was presented in the book series. If the chronology was actually important to the development of the cast, it should have been preserved. If it wasn't (and it wasn't, being merely an artifact of how the first book was composed) then the changing plot should have accomodated some character growth instead of just assuming we all read the supplemental materials beforehand.

Dark Dragon

Mon, 07-30-2012, 11:20 AM

That's what i was saying.

The chronology IS important for the development of the cast and the animator made this decision without considering this beforehand.

They are adapting the side stories as they were written in the books, without considering that the audience of the anime does not have all of the information that was available to readers of the books when they were at this point in the story.

Just to clarify, i'm pointing out that this is one short-coming with the adaptation. Another is the fact that there is no narrator so there are a lot of important minor details being left out.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 11:40 AM

@Y: SAO isn't WOW.

You actually control your character in the game as if you are moving your own body. Teamwork is important, but individual skill even more so. You don't auto dodge attacks. You have to rely on reaction speed, coordination, and imagination to fight well.

Partying in SAO is not as critical compared to other MMOs because there is no healing magic. The slow working potions can't be used from a distance either. The healing dragon Silica has is an exception, and even then it heals only a scrap of HP. These factors make soloing a viable option for skilled players.

And do you seriously want to fight enemies of the same level in a game where dying means death in reality? It makes sense to maintain a certain level advantage over the content to ensure survival, but not too much that it would be too inefficient. Even then, Kirito is the type to take risks when leveling, since that is the only way to make up for not having a party.

Kirito joined that party because he was lonely. Even if soloing is more his play style, SAO isn't just a game. They eat, sleep, and do everything in it. Soloing basically means being alone all the time, and it is only natural to want to have friends in that scenario.

In this episode, he was there because he wanted to catch the criminals. It's not like he randomly wanders around lower levels. He even mentioned that he was away for 5 days, and that is already way too long. That means he normally fights at the highest available floor every day.

Mon, 07-30-2012, 12:56 PM

@Y: SAO isn't WOW.

You actually control your character in the game as if you are moving your own body. Teamwork is important, but individual skill even more so. You don't auto dodge attacks. You have to rely on reaction speed, coordination, and imagination to fight well.

Not really. Dozens (apparently) of appropriately-leveled characters barely defeated the first floor boss. It would plainly have been impossible for one person, no matter how personally skilled, to do anything - in fact the main combat mechanic displayed in the first three episodes.is a mechanic that requires a party. One person blocks or deflects the boss's attack and then someone else switches in to actually get a hit in on the boss. Naturally Kirito is a master of the usage and timing of this mechanic despite not partying with anyone. Combat is also extremely simple for a multitude of reasons, so once again, individual skill is not a huge contributor to group success.

And do you seriously want to fight enemies of the same level in a game where dying means death in reality? It makes sense to maintain a certain level advantage over the content to ensure survival, but not too much that it would be too inefficient.

The obvious choice would be for absolutely everyone to refuse to play the game and wait until the creator is arrested and they're removed from the world, but that would make for a pretty boring show.

I'm not trying to argue that I need more MMORPG tactical realism in the show, mind you. It's just that his character doesn't work at all within the context of the world. He's a loner, but he's the wrong kind of loner to be good at what he's doing, and the show doesn't care enough to make sense of that. He is just the best because he's the main character/

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 01:19 PM

Bosses naturally have to be defeated by groups. The game would be too easy otherwise. Even Kirito joined that group that beat the 1st level boss so obviously he knows it is necessary. Moreover, MMOs aren't all about bosses. Leveling is important as well, and Kirito is apparently really fast at it. He solos when leveling, and joins in when they fight bosses. Makes sense to me.

Kirito is good because he is smart, calm, and just really good at fighting. You completely ignored the fighting aspect in SAO. Combat isn't simple. They aren't pressing a button or mouse clicking when they attack. They do the attacks as if they were in the real world. Positioning, balance, form, all of those matter. Sword skills do have system assist as explained in episode 1, but even that needs to be initiated by movement. Like I said in the previous post, dodging is all manual.

Having a high leveled character but having no skills to use it would result in death. Actually, you would not reach a high level without skill in the first place. I imagine those with martial arts training, especially swordsmanship, would have a great advantage in this game. Kirito trained in Kendo.

Kirito is good at the switch system because he was in the Beta. He naturally had a lot of chances to learn and master it there, maybe even partying up at times.

About refusing to play the game, I bet a lot of people are actually doing just that. I can't imagine thousands of people dealing with their predicament in the same way. There are even murderers after all.

KrayZ33

Mon, 07-30-2012, 01:51 PM

The obvious choice would be for absolutely everyone to refuse to play the game and wait until the creator is arrested and they're removed from the world, but that would make for a pretty boring show.

not really

1. GM is mad (!) no one plays? random pk every 5 minutes
2. someone removes your net-gear in rl if you don't hurry
3. they stop life-support
4. over a year has passed already (must feel awesome to know that over a year has passed and nothing changed)
5. who knows if there is any other way to get out of there? they could just disconnect the whole internet or shut those servers down couldn't they? seems like they can't for some reason, who knows...guess if they do it might fry your brain
6. creator gets arrested and then what?

Mon, 07-30-2012, 03:38 PM

The only complicated aspect of the combat system is the control interface, i.e. your body. But that isn't the point. The point is this:

He's a loner, but he's the wrong kind of loner to be good at what he's doing, and the show doesn't care enough to make sense of that.

The show just badly wields the "loner badass" cliche and nothing you wrote addresses that. You just said "well, he's obviously skilled, so he mastered the group elements of the game offscreen" despite that it makes no sense for the character as presented to us to have done so and he obviously didn't gain any social skills from having done so.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 04:44 PM

Actually my entire reply was addressing your point.

I simply stated a list of things that made him good despite being a loner. Being a loner and being good are not mutually exclusive, and all I said points to that.

I agree that the show is not explaining things enough, but that does not mean it does not make sense. It just isn't going out of it's way to make things clear, which it should.

Ryllharu

Mon, 07-30-2012, 05:21 PM

Combat isn't simple. They aren't pressing a button or mouse clicking when they attack. They do the attacks as if they were in the real world. Positioning, balance, form, all of those matter. Sword skills do have system assist as explained in episode 1, but even that needs to be initiated by movement. Like I said in the previous post, dodging is all manual.

Having a high leveled character but having no skills to use it would result in death. Actually, you would not reach a high level without skill in the first place. I imagine those with martial arts training, especially swordsmanship, would have a great advantage in this game. Kirito trained in Kendo.
Maybe the novels explain it differently, but that isn't at all how the series presents itself. Not even remotely.

Kirito explained to noob-master-Klein that skills auto-activate once you think hard enough about them. The "input motion" isn't as if you perform the Crimson-Leaves Strike from "The Book of Five Rings," there was clearly no skill involved. You put your arm in the approximately correct position and it works when you think about it hard enough. This barely registers as Dragon Punch input difficulty.

Klein wasn't exactly skilled at martial combat before. He started Sword Art Online just coming off other MMOs, the regular kind. Once Kirito told him how to do it, he was fine, and now he's one of lead parties. You think either of the two girls knew any manner of martial combat before? Sachi was in a computer club and the other is just some random girl who likes cute things, no reason for her to even try SAO in the first place was given. They didn't have that much difficulty. Sachi was only having trouble because her guild forced her to switch to front-line defender, and given the very real threat of death in that group position, it's understandable. Sachi's friends had no trouble at all pulling off skills.

Knowing Kendo (allegedly) doesn't help Kirito more than giving him a little experience in moving his arms in specific ways to avoid any ambiguity on the skill initial position command. Maybe it makes for pulling off strings of commands faster. Over time, that's the same for anyone with any game in any genre.

Aside from the input method of holding your arm in position or making an upward swing from low (to bat aside the boss' weapon) instead of a horizontal swing (to simply attack) as clearly seen in episode 2, SAO isn't any different from TERA. They use timing here for extra damage, the same way that most MMOs use temporary skill debuffs that combo by other party members' attacks. TERA does that. Guild Wars 2 will be doing that too. The timing is just more precise...and that isn't any different from any console action-RPG where lag isn't an issue.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 05:52 PM

I keep saying that dodging is manual. That means defending is too. Parrying attacks, using shields, all that is manual. Actually, normal attacks are manual too. All of these skills benefit from martial arts training, which improves reflexes, and coordination. Knowing Kendo in particular is a big advantage, since you know how to parry, block and strike using a sword from the get go.

The only time system assist kicks in is if the weapon is shining blue. That was clear in episode 1, when Kirito was explaining to Klein how to use sword skills.

You don't need to know martial arts to play SAO, but knowing it gives you an edge.

Ryllharu

Mon, 07-30-2012, 05:58 PM

No, you're pulling advanced knowledge from the novels. At no point has the series ever expanded on how combat works. And TERA has manual dodging (and/or dodge skills) too. Nothing special here.

Kirito and Klein in episode 1 implied there are skills for everything. That includes blocking skills. There's a clear difference between skills and special attacks. Kirito explained that both his Listening and Detection skills were quite strong (unusual for many players), which is why he was able to notice the evil guild members. Those are passive skills, and don't rely on his real life abilities at all.

Try convincing me again without using info from the novels.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 06:11 PM

I didn't use novel info. The avatar moves in accordance to how the person moves. That means blocking or dodging an attack means actually blocking or dodging an attack. That's all there is to it. There may or may not be blocking skills, but you don't even need those if you can do it manually.

Also, you are severely mistaken if you think dodging an attack in real life (which is the whole point of the NERV gear thing - full motion capture) and dodging it in TERA are the same thing.

Mon, 07-30-2012, 06:12 PM

Again, I really don't want to debate the tactical realism of the show because that's just dumb, but Sword Art Online is obviously a very simple game for one reason - if it were even remotely taxing it would kill absolutely everyone playing it in short time. Like just think for a few seconds. If you had to be a real life black belt in jiujitsu to advance in the game, everyone playing it would already be dead. To go back to WoW, even the absolute simplest bosses are usually complicated enough to require a wipe or two when an unexpected mechanic rears its head. The difference in SAO is you can't watch a Youtube video, wipe a few times or ask the #1 guild for their strat. Everything has to be simple enough to be understood and defeated on the very first attempt.

shinta|hikari

Mon, 07-30-2012, 06:16 PM

I am opting out of discussion about SAO from here. Ryll is right that I may be defending it because I have background information from the novels. While I do not intend to use that information in discussion (I even consciously avoid it as much as I can), it is impossible to ensure that since I am already tainted by knowledge, and may inadvertently reveal things thinking that they were explained in the anime.

For the sake of anime only watchers, I will lurk this thread until the anime ends.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 07-30-2012, 06:34 PM

Mon, 07-30-2012, 07:29 PM

That's a typo on my part. I meant the beta was easier than the real deal.

The beta was undoubtedly much harder than live, relatively speaking. On live, permadeath means you can never wipe to learn an encounter or understand a boss's ability. If the game was as easy in beta as it was on live, presumably everyone would have had a huge advantage due to the lack of permadeath.

Buffalobiian

Mon, 07-30-2012, 08:04 PM

The beta was undoubtedly much harder than live, relatively speaking. On live, permadeath means you can never wipe to learn an encounter or understand a boss's ability. If the game was as easy in beta as it was on live, presumably everyone would have had a huge advantage due to the lack of permadeath.

The fact that after 1 month no one had cleared Floor 1, and that higher boss abilities trickled down to lower levels compared to the beta clearly suggests that the Live was harder than Beta.

Mon, 07-30-2012, 08:11 PM

The fact that after 1 month no one had cleared Floor 1, and that higher boss abilities trickled down to lower levels compared to the beta clearly suggests that the Live was harder than Beta.

I'm purely talking about encounter difficulty in a design sense. Obviously the reason no one cleared Floor 1 is because they expected to be rescued, were refusing to participate, were playing SUPER cautiously so as not to die, etc, not because it was made harder from a design perspective. The change to the first boss didn't even make it harder, it just made it different from what they were expecting.

Hitokiri

Mon, 07-30-2012, 08:56 PM

Episode 2: All in all, it's really not any different from episode 1. He still runs off to do his own thing. He refused the offer to play along as a team member in favor of bum rushing to the quick leveling spots in the first episode, and he did the same thing here. The only difference is he told people that is what he was going to do, instead of slinking off. You can't really call that any sort of character development.

Name anything that's changed from the first episode about Kirito. He's still selfishly running about, taking pride in the fact that he's stronger/smarter than basically anyone else, using limited-release knowledge for his own ends, and occasionally helping noobs, but refusing to put any trust in them. It's been four episodes, it's still the same information you could glean from the first episode.

Actually, even though he knew about the Last Attack Bonus item (Coat of Midnight), he still played along with Deibel's plan and was purely support (Squad D, E and F taking out the Sentinels). That's not selfish to me. He could have bum rushed the Boss to get the item, but he didn't. He, also tried to warn Deibel once he saw that the Boss weapon was different, but it was too late. His last request to Kirito was to: "Defeat the Boss for Everyone" while denying Kirito's health potion.

Also in the end, when that guy accused him of letting Deibel die, the situation got ugly within the party. When someone else asked if other people in the party were also beta testers and to come out and show themselves, the party would have most certainly broken up with a lot of mistrust between each other. To avoid this, he played the role of the bad guy (self proclaimed Beater) so no one else would come under fire for being a beta tester.

It is clear he was thinking about the group, especially since his last thought was a flash back of Deibel pleading with him to help the group before he died. Again, not selfish.

TL:DR - no he's not selfish; want proof read above or watch the damn episode again.

Yukimura

Mon, 07-30-2012, 10:11 PM

Kirito is either selfish or cowardly or some combination of the two (my money is on option 3). My read on him is his is either unwilling to or incapable of relating to more than one person. In a group setting he never seems to operate effectively, to disastrous, as we see in episode 3, or cold-hearted, as we see in 1,2, and 4, results. I don't get the feeling that he is directly malicious, but I still think even when he is doing 'good' things he is doing them purely for his own sense of satisfaction and is not actually considering things from the perspectives of other people when determining his behavior.

Despite being unable, for whatever reason, to relate properly to or interact with people in groups, I think Kirito has a desire not to be alone and probably a desire to feel a sense of belonging to a group. Whether he is tragic because he can't or a deplorable because he won't but has a hero complex he has to satisfy I find it hard to see him as being particularly praise-worthy. His attempts at playing 'the hero' all reek of selfish intent with benefits for others being fortunate side effects that he could care less about one way or the other.

In episode 1 he offers to help Klein, but refuses to join with him and looking for Klein's other friends and forming a party. This tells me ultimately he was thinking of himself and perhaps knows his limitations where groups are concerned, it also tells me he was willing to take one person along, albeit a person who would be dependent on him due to inexperience.

In episode 2 he joins the raid, knowing what it took to beat the first boss in the Beta but I imagine not knowing/having the exp to take it on himself. He doesn't ever speak up or offer any of his knowledge to try and help the group but he's capable of at least going through the motions, perhaps because he was happy to feel like he belonged to something. However, we also know that he knew about the last hit bonus and it remains to be seen whether he truly did just join the group hoping to get lucky with the last hit. Once he realized that things with the party were falling apart he made that speech about how he was the greatest thing since sliced beta and turned all the groups ire onto him. My guess is that this was a result of panic about the way the group seemed to be turning against him. He got defensive and forced their ire onto him on his terms before they could kick him out on their own.

In episode 3 he pals around with people far under his own level but doesn't offer any guidance or wisdom from the higher levels and doesn't try very hard to discourage them from risking the danger they might face on a higher level. He knew he'd be alright and maybe he thought that either they could somehow take care of themselves or he could watch their backs well enough to keep them alive, but he didn't take action from the perspective of trying to minimize the risk to them, he only offered token resistance to their going to what we can assume was one level behind the front. Again, a complete failure to work effectively within a group setting. However it's interesting to note when he deals to a single individual, particularly one who is obviously far 'weaker' than him and thus in a position to defer to him, he seems to relate to people just fine.

In episode 4 he only has one person to party with and this is a situation he seems quite capable of dealing with and even properly relating to, but he maintains a firm control of the upper hand throughout his interaction with dragon-chan. However, we discover that he was down at that level for at least partially selfish reasons. The argument could be made that he was trying to clean up the 'trash' of the game for the sake of particular players, but it seemed to me like he wanted to play 'hero' and could reasonably expect nothing would happen to him so he went and did it.

MasterOfMoogles

Mon, 07-30-2012, 11:35 PM

It is interesting that all of Kirito's actions could have multiple motivations behind them. Many things factor into his actions, some selfishness and cowardice, some bravery and selflessness, and certainly some social awkwardness.

In episode 1, he selfishly wants to go powerlevel as fast as he can, so he can be the strongest. Knowing what he knows about how evil people can be, I think anyone would want to be higher level than the PK who might try to kill you. Kirito wants to make a friend and help him advance, but is too scared to take the responsibility for Klein and his friends' lives in his hands. He weighs the certainty of his own strength against staying behind to help them, and chooses himself. The easy way out.

In episode 2, he is in the raid because he wants to clear the game. However, hate for the beta players is pretty high, so he is scared of getting called out. Luckily for him, there is the guidebook that explains everything that he knows anyways, so he doesn't have to say anything. He thinks everything is under control so he just goes along for the ride. At the end of the battle, he realizes that things are going bad and the bad blood between regular players and beta players will probably just get worse. In a move that is both selfish and selfless he takes all the hate onto himself. This is, in a way, the easy way out of the situation. He doesn't have to be responsible for anyone and doesn't have to deal with tough social situations.

In episode 3, loneliness has clearly caught up to Kirito, so he joins the guild. He thinks the only reason they're nice to him is because they don't know who he is, so he hides the truth and tries to stay with them. He thinks everything is under control, so again he avoids the tough social interactions that would come up if he told the truth. Again he takes the easy way out, just trying to coast by. He thinks he can get by like this, but it ends up being a total failure. He caused the deaths of 5 people and is pretty traumatized, to the point of being suicidal (attempting to solo a raid boss). Sachi's final message clearly had a big impact on him, and was probably the only thing that stopped him from going crazy.

In episode 4, he seems to have embraced who he is. On the upper floors, he found someone begging to take revenge for his guildmates who were effectively murdered. He knew he had the power to put a stop to it and save lives, so he goes to the lower floors, but not hiding who he is this time. Scilica is probably the first person Kirito has ever actually opened up to and talked to since the incident. He is probably doing it partly out of guilt, having gotten his own comrades killed, but it is undeniable that he is doing a good thing. He seems to be doing "the right thing" here, even when nobody else would. Kirito wasn't in any danger, but that doesn't mean what he did was easy.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 07-31-2012, 12:17 AM

Kirito is selfish?(1)

WTF.

(1) and by "selfish" I take it to mean that he's more selfish than the average joe.

He's a beta tester, and he offered to help Klein to build up his strength. Once the designer made his speech, Kirito knew that to ensure his survival he had to build up his level quickly. He offered to take Klein with him because one person wouldn't hinder their performance too much, but refused leading an entire band.

That's called co-operation. At that stage Klein had nothing to offer Kirito, but Kirito was happy to help him out as long as he didn't suffer in return. That's not "selfish", which I interpret to be hoarding stuff/benefits for yourself (that wasn't rightfully yours in the first place) while leaving others to rot.

Then came the fight. Kirito didn't give off any information because:

1) someone was leading already and had a plan figured out
2) that someone had beta information about bosses

It was Diebel who broke the formation to get the bonus kill, not Kirito. He only disregarded their battle plan because it was no longer valid against this new boss ability. The last-kill by Kirito wasn't planned. It's not like he would have pushed Asuna out of the way to get the kill if she was in his position instead.

The speech afterwards was to give everyone else a common enemy (Kirito) so they'll band together, instead of trying to make up with the rest of the group and leaving seeds of distrust that would end up killing them. (the speech, as I explained before, also meant that the group won't doubt each other's performances)

Then comes episode 3 where for whatever reason Kirito was around to help out this group. He didn't intend to join them, but they asked so he felt obliged (and might have wanted a little company on the side.. who knows). He lied about his level to fit in. The end result was that the others got cocky and thought they could be as great as Kirito is because they're of similar level.. but that's not entirely his fault I reckon.

In the final episode Kirito left the front lines in order to catch some asshole. There's no evidence to suggest that he approached Silica for that reason. For one, he was searching for Rosalia. If he knew where she was, he'd attack them. Silica only became "bait" after Kirito detected the Listener.

Ryllharu

Tue, 07-31-2012, 02:58 AM

Also in the end, when that guy accused him of letting Deibel die, the situation got ugly within the party. When someone else asked if other people in the party were also beta testers and to come out and show themselves, the party would have most certainly broken up with a lot of mistrust between each other. To avoid this, he played the role of the bad guy (self proclaimed Beater) so no one else would come under fire for being a beta tester.

TL:DR - no he's not selfish; want proof read above or watch the damn episode again.I get what you're saying, but you're misinterpreting my post. Despite all the unselfish actions Kirito performs during episode 2, at the end, after his speech that unifies the group, he declares quite openly that he's running off to go power level again, and we know from later episodes that he actually does just that. He's the same level or higher than the front line groups, yet can still spend several days away from there and still be as good as they are. During episode 3, he is shown power leveling most nights while his guild sleeps.

So they actually negated the pathetic excuse for character development Kirito might have gained. At the end of BOTH episodes 1 and 2, Kirito helps a few noobs, but then tells them that he's going to go run off and be better than them (well, he never told Klein). Any altruistic actions he accomplished are negated by the fact that he willfully refuses to help them where it actually matters, saving everyone. He power levels on his own, and forces them to figure out everything for themselves.

I suppose the only reasoning you can put behind this is either Y's right, and he's a complete sociopath, or Yuki's right, and he's got major Asperger's combined with a Hero Complex, so he goes out to fight weak people to save, but panics every time he's thrust into a social scenario.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 07-31-2012, 03:07 AM

So they actually negated the pathetic excuse for character development Kirito might have gained. At the end of BOTH episodes 1 and 2, Kirito helps a few noobs, but then tells them that he's going to go run off and be better than them (well, he never told Klein). Any altruistic actions he accomplished are negated by the fact that he willfully refuses to help them where it actually matters, saving everyone. He power levels on his own, and forces them to figure out everything for themselves.

So refusing to do charity/suffer losses for someone else makes you selfish? Helping Klein isn't something that "actually matters"?

If Kirito is right and the man spent "all of his fortune" to buy the Prison Crystal, that means he left none as payment for Kirito. (I don't really think that's the case, but I can imagine the crystal costing the bulk of the expense and Kirito just charging {or was perhaps simply offered} what's left of the ex-leader) The he went and gave all the gear to Silica and helped her level up even though the warp crystal would have been good enough to ensure survival (or just armour).

He also sacrificed a few days of levelling (which is important to him) in order to help the guy catch scum.

Kirito is as selfish as the average person. He donates his time and money when it suits him without compromising his livelihood. Just because you didn't quit your job, fly to Africa and help dig wells doesn't mean you're selfish.

Ryllharu

Tue, 07-31-2012, 03:34 AM

MasterOfMoogles

Tue, 07-31-2012, 04:02 AM

I don't think everyone has the leadership skills and the abilities necessary to lead 10,000 people through a life or death situation. He's just a 15 year old boy who wants to play MMO games.
Some of the arguments in this thread are a great example of just how hard it is to get everyone on the same page.

Edort4

Tue, 07-31-2012, 04:26 AM

Game server meets EMP.

Lately I cant get myself to like this kind of "mainstreamish" anime. I find it terribly lacking in all areas: script, art, music, character deepness/development. For me its some kind of Hack Sign rehased bs. Not even innovative and terribly nonsensical. And that the OP shows Kirito with a bunch of random female characters hints me where the show is aiming at. I find this to be a classical example of decadency inside the "industry".

Anyways in some way or another we all "like" MMOs because so much discussion for such a bland and weak show... I have to concede the show that it gets to the tickle spot of persistent alternate reality lovers.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 07-31-2012, 06:53 AM

If you have the knowledge and skill to save 5000+ people all at once, why are you only using it to impress weak people one by one? The second Kirito might get thrown into a leadership role, he insults a bunch of people and runs off instead, or willfully stands aside and lets them get themselves killed.

5000+?

He never met a group that big. If you're talking about the beta-book, the Floor #1 boss taught you that the beta and live SAO are different - and relying on wrong information will kill you.

Knowledge and combat skill doesn't make you a good leader (as the above said). Charisma, on the other hand, is something else.

When you have the capability to save people on such a large scale, I do believe one has the responsibility to do something about it. The ultra-wealthy dump tons of money into charity (which in turn assists their tax burden), the brilliant modify food to grow in harsher conditions or create water purifiers on the cheap.

The ultra-wealthy don't dump money at the cost of their company's performance. Scientists don't develop new technology for free.

Kirito is willing to help to his capacity without suffering a loss. That's perfectly normal.

Which if you believe the backstory he told Silica, he did that all the time in the real world too, to his sister/cousin.

Kirito didn't like doing whatever it is that his grandfather forced them to do. That's his grandfather's assholish ways that put them in a bind. Her cousin having twice the burden wasn't a result that was foreseeable, and was suggested by the cousin herself. I think Silica's reasoning had some sense behind it. Given that Kirito was already actively defying his grandfather's wishes, the cousin could have joined Kirito in their cause if she hated the activity. The fact that she was willing to do "twice as well" when an outlet was available suggests she would have put in exceptional effort regardless. Such is an example of "helping without suffering a loss".

Please don't think he did anything nice to Silica directly. He gave her gear he has no use for (which he must accumulate constantly from grinding all the time),

He gave her stuff that he could have sold. She offered to pay, but he accepted nothing.

Then he went and let her deliver most of the killing blows where allowable so she could level up when he could do it himself more quickly to save time (as well as soak up whatever measly XP those level monsters provide)

and only helped her enough that the trap he was setting up could be sprung.

He saved her from the monsters in the forest, then aided her in reviving her pet. From the start he intended to go that far, and that's what he did. If he really wanted to bail, he would have caught Rosalia and just bailed without a word (or shrug off Silica with his "haha, I'm an evil Beater and you were just my bait, so long!" act). Instead he stuck around to explain, to see that the revival was successful, and to promise to meet her in real life.

She was more than (and wasn't initially intended to be) jailbait.

His real goal on those floors was playing hero to a guy who had just lost his entire guild. Coming off episode 3, it just makes it look like Kirito was doing it to assuage any left over guilt he had from when he caused a similar situation. I still think it would have been better if he had killed the redhead, but I guess they don't want to send him down the "I am Justice!" sociopath route just yet.

Not everyone believes in capital punishment. The guild(less) leader wanted (his own form of) justice enacted on some assholes but was powerless to do so. Kirito helped him out because he agrees with the cause. I don't think he has any real Hero Complex like you suggest, or else he'd be more happy to lead groups.

If you had to connect it to episode 03, you could say that Kirito indirectly lead to his teammates' death. He probably hated himself for that. As such, he hates murderers even more. That would be his motivation.

darkshadow

Tue, 07-31-2012, 10:29 AM

Silica was bait, plain and simple; he helped her out because she reminded him of his sistercousin; first and foremost he decided to use her dead pet as a means to get what he wanted.
Or in other words he was nice to her to make himself feel better.
The equipment he gave her was trash for someone his level and he's probably rolling in money anyway; aside from not wanting it for his own feel-good selfish reasons, he simply didn't need her "pocketchange".

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 10:49 AM

Can't believe people see Kirito as selfish....

pretty much every episode showed the exact opposite, its ridiculous

Silica was bait, plain and simple; he helped her out because she reminded him of his sistercousin; first and foremost he decided to use her dead pet as a means to get what he wanted.
Or in other words he was nice to her to make himself feel better.
The equipment he gave her was trash for someone his level and he's probably rolling in money anyway; aside from not wanting it for his own feel-good selfish reasons, he simply didn't need her "pocketchange".

I'll keep in mind:
never help out noobs especially when you have better things to do , because it seems like it will make you look selfish
guess clearing the game so people can finally log out and risking your life by doing so is very selfish too because in the end he just did it for himself amiright?

by the way, stop donating guys, those kids in africa don't want your ugly pocketchange so you can feel good and say "I'm donating - not my fault everyones eating shit there", why don't you go over there and help you selfish sons of bitchez :O
that exactly what you guys are telling Kirito to do

darkshadow

Tue, 07-31-2012, 11:16 AM

He's only been helping himself.
He's not helping noobs, if he did then those 5 living human beings wouldn't be dead now; do you remember what blue-haired girl said? She was glad he was higher level cause it meant he could look after them. What does he he do? Promptly ends their lives, because he felt it was more important to lie about his level and give the group a false sense of being stronger then they were.

And when it really came down to it, them talking about going to a much higher floor, he didn't even try to tell them they could potentially get one shotted, and thus die in real life really easy.
Heck on the floor itself one of them comments: "see, piece of cake", not knowing kirito has been carrying them this whole time and a tiny slip up on his side could mean instadead...which is exactly what happened.

And lol @ clearing the game, he was obviously hanging out with that lower level group for months, it's clear that he's not on the front-line all the time desperately risking his life trying to safe everyone; he powerlevels a bit and then just wanders off on lower levels essentially feeding himself with actions that make him feel better about himself.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 11:28 AM

you mean those 5 who would've died if he didn't intervene. right before he joined their guild?

ya, he wanted them dead and tricked them!
awww im kidding, it was an accident

Tue, 07-31-2012, 11:28 AM

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up. Kirito in the first episode expressed understanding and sympathy to the goals of the crazy, mass murdering game designer. Yes, that's right. The only sense of emotional connection he formed in the first four episodes is with the greatest mass murderer in history. This is your altruistic hero, assclowns.

you mean those 5 who were dead if he didn't intervene before he joined their guild?

ya, he wanted them dead and tricked them!

Why do you think they explored the instant death floor in the first place? Because Kirito, over the course of weeks and months, systematically lied to them about how strong he was, and by extension how strong they were. They assumed (because of Kirito's lies) that they were much stronger than they actually were. If Kirito was never involved with them, they would never have been on the instant death floor getting themselves killed thinking they were strong enough to clear it.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 11:57 AM

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up. Kirito in the first episode expressed understanding and sympathy to the goals of the crazy, mass murdering game designer.

nope, he didn't
its simply not what he has said or expressed in the first episode

he admire*d* him yes... well guess he was wrong about him

Why do you think they explored the instant death floor in the first place? Because Kirito, over the course of weeks and months, systematically lied to them about how strong he was, and by extension how strong they were. They assumed (because of Kirito's lies) that they were much stronger than they actually were. If Kirito was never involved with them, they would never have been on the instant death floor getting themselves killed thinking they were strong enough to clear it.

as I said, you guys make it sound like he killed them on purpose
and if he had not saved them, then they would have died long ago, at least thats what the guild and guild leader said right before he decided (after being asked) to join the guild

and to come back to the "Kirito is selfish" discussion
not every MC is "Emiya Shirou" gosh... he's not willing to give up his own life/goals whenever someone asks for a favor, so what?
giving strangers free gear/loot and help them level a bit is more than 95% of players would do and guess what, the community in Swort Art Online is probably the same you'd encounter in WoW
its a miracle that not a single high level starts killing people on the lower-fields while saying: "YOU MAD?! TROLOLOLOLO"

Dark Dragon

Tue, 07-31-2012, 12:00 PM

I'm going to abstain from any more discussion in this thread because i also know too much from reading the novels.

That's probably for the best since i won't have to waste my time and argue with bullshit like

You guys must be letting your perspective from reading the books fuck your judgment up

because clearly, having actual information to make a judgment about a character is wrong.

A lot of you guys are way too convinced of your own opinion over the information (or lack of) that was disclosed so far. I'm reading way too many "obviously" or "definitely" when it's mostly theory that you came up with.

You guys are probably not going to enjoy this anime if you continue to nitpick over every detail. It was already established that there are some problems with this adaption. There are also plenty of hints in the episodes as to the whole situation that is only noticeable to people who read the novels (once again, the fault of the studio). At this rate, I'm worried that they'll leave out more important details that are only revealed through narration.

If the main character bothers you that much, it's probably best to stop watching the show altogether. I doubt that the studio will wise up because they already screwed up 2 important chapters so far.

Tue, 07-31-2012, 12:19 PM

I'm going to abstain from any more discussion in this thread because i also know too much from reading the novels.

That's probably for the best since i won't have to waste my time and argue with bullshit like

because clearly, having actual information to make a judgment about a character is wrong.

You mean, arguing about a different character. The Kirito of the novels is a character that doesn't exist in the show. We're working off what happened in it, not what happened in the material it's adapted from.

nope, he didn't
its simply not what he has said or expressed in the first episode

he admire*d* him yes... well guess he was wrong about him

The tone of awe in his voice when he's thinking of the creator of the game is markedly different from his neutral, detached responses to everything else. In his own mind he still refers to the man as a "genius". He refers to not only "understanding" the rules of the game (which hardly require an admiration of the creator to comprehend) but also his rationale for locking them in the gameworld.

as I said, you guys make it sound like he killed them on purpose
and if he had not saved them, then they would have died long ago, at least thats what the guild and guild leader said right before he decided (after being asked) to join the guild

Oh that makes it totally ok that his negligence got them killed later, he had saved their lives once already. What the fuck? Also, in the subs I watched, the guy does not say that Kirito saved their lives or that they would already be dead, but it can certainly be implied - but that's only because they're fighting much more powerful enemies than they would have.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 12:33 PM

Utwoots:

A toast to the man we owe our lives too

Oh that makes it totally ok that his negligence got them killed later, he had saved their lives once already. What the fuck?

not what I said but that aside:

he most likely didn't want them to end that way and he regrets not telling them his real level? He went to the guild leader and told him everything, even though he didn't have too, he could've kept going with the "I'm just lvl 20 and couldn't help them :( " role but he didn't
because it was not his intention to hurt them, he wanted to help them, he wanted them to reach the front lines, he wanted them to reach their goals (or guild-leaders goals) by pushing them, but he pushed too hard. they themselves wanted to reach the front lines as fast as possible.

as I said, you make it sound and look like he loves to bath in the tears of others and is doing all for his own amusement.

Tue, 07-31-2012, 12:51 PM

as I said, you make it sound and look like he loves to bath in the tears of others and is doing all for his own amusement.

First of all, the main character's social dysfunction should be immediately evident. In addition to the comments about the game's creator, in the first episode his home life is presented as a featureless room and his only interaction with his family is through a closed door. Do you not find this image telling in a show about an MMORPG? Kirito finds MMORPG virtual worlds more fulfilling than the real world. Secondly, just because he is deeply dysfunctional does not mean he is a sadist. I don't think the character we've seen in these episodes relates to human beings enough to take pleasure in their discomfort. In episode four, why does he help the girl out? Because she was an innocent person about to die? Because he wants to repair her self-confidence and her relationship with her MMO pet? No, because she reminded him of a family member. This is a reflection of his threat to the PK guild leader at the end of the episode - the consequence for murder isn't moral or spiritual to him, it's a few days of being PVP flagged.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 01:15 PM

First of all, the main character's social dysfunction should be immediately evident.

yes I agree, he's the typical shut-in MMO players who might enjoy those games more than real-life
for reasons unknown (so far? or maybe forever... harrassment, father beating him too much, who knows)

in the first episode his home life is presented as a featureless room and his only interaction with his family is through a closed door.

its not really awkward is it? Sister leaves the house, he starts playing .... thats it
I wouldn't read to much into it though..

and lets not forget its not just him who's hyped about this game, its seems to be a really big thing, like a new Ipod or something like that

In episode four, why does he help the girl out? Because she was an innocent person about to die? Because he wants to repair her self-confidence and her relationship with her MMO pet? No, because she reminded him of a family member.

exactly, thats the most normal thing to do, its what anyone or most human beings would do
just like a man would help a woman before he'd help another man
the fact that he IS there in the first place shows he want to help others... just like Queen Orange said "Why would a front-liner roam here?!"
he saved her life, and probably just then he realized how much she looks like his sister. openly admitting it and telling her that he probably just helps her because he wants to amend his errors (or something like that)

This is a reflection of his threat to the PK guild leader at the end of the episode - the consequence for murder isn't moral or spiritual to him, it's a few days of being PVP flagged.

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

he doesn't fight back at all, he owns them by showing his superiority, he has absolutely no intention of hurting them

red-head said: "you'll turn Orange if you *HURT* me"
he even mentioned that his client doesn't want them dead, but in prison... which might be the reason why he agreed to do it for him!?

but even IF we ignore all that.

killing her might be the only other way to stop that PvP madness in a game where "people die when they are killed"
he is willing to pay the price for "self-justice"...again hes taking all the blame (red-playermark)..something other front liners wouldn't do for a random low level stranger.
and lets face it, killing her would probably save even more lives

Tue, 07-31-2012, 01:22 PM

exactly, thats the most normal thing to do, its what anyone or most human beings would do
just like a man would help a woman before he'd help another man

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

This isn't explained in the episode, and doesn't make sense given the fact that we know her guild lures people in and kills them and yet is flagged orange and not red. But it's no problem, we have the spoiler crew here to talk about unnecessary technical derails.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 01:40 PM

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

my english is probably to bad for you to understand what I'm saying. you are cutting corners

written by myself

he saved her life, and probably just then he realized how much she looks like his sister.

hmm nope, I think someone should be able to read and understand that
and no its not weird, its a fact to be honest. I'm sure you find lots of info about it on the internet if you really care.
you don't have to make up reasons bro, I can live with people hating him, I hate it when people make up stuff to justify it though

This isn't explained in the episode

it IS... what the fuck come on?

Tue, 07-31-2012, 01:51 PM

hmm nope, I think someone should be able to read and understand that
and no its not weird, its a fact to be honest. I'm sure you find lots of info about it on the internet if you really care.

This is really dumb and lazy. You invented a biotruth argument out of nothing and then asked me to go find proof of your assertion. Well, no. That isn't how people consciously make decisions normally. That's really fucking weird actually. The altruistic impulse is because people get distressed when they see other people suffer, not because they need to work out their family issues through a proxy. Of course, the point of that scene was just to make a creepy pseudo-familial association between the characters because anime is fucking creepy as shit.

it IS... what the fuck come on?

I asked Arcness in chat and he said the colors got explained during his cheesecake dinner date (which I completely zoned out of). That being said, the player killer guild in episode four is clearly flagged orange, so again it's just more slipshod writing.

fireheart

Tue, 07-31-2012, 01:55 PM

Regarding episode 4 Kirito did say the guild leader spent the whole day begging for someone to help him It could be argued that Kirito sat and watched him the whole time and only moved when he relized no one was going to help him. While this doesn't really reflect well on him the more important fact is that none of the people in the front cared about this guild walking around PKing people or bothered stopping them. It says a lot about all the people in the front.

As for his powerlevling to be fair if I did what he did and made me out to be a beater, gathering the hate of who knows how many in a deathgame where PKing is allowed then I'd powerlevel like a maniac. I'd be way too paranoid not to do it, what if someone from Diabels party decided it was his fault and they all ambushed him to take their revenge on him? What if there were more people like Kibaou who decided that it's his fault 2000 players died and goes after him and even if they don't kill him and just take all his gear, how long would he survive?

Paranoia could also be the reason why he powerleveled right at the start of the game, what if he farmed exp with everyone else and someone went nuts and tried to kill him because he figured that mob was his and Kirito stole it from him. Maybe not very likely to happen but the fear of it possibly happening is another matter, once it taken root it'd be hard to let it go and trust that people wouldn't screw you over. To be honest I don't have the kind of faith in mankind that would enable me to believe that other people with Kiritos knowledge wouldn't use it to ensure they have a higher chance of survival. Nor do I have enough faith to really believe that people under that kind of stress where their life is at line wouldn't snap and attack you for believing you stole their mob or someone trying to steal everything you got. If anyone here have enough faith to utterly trust in all the random people and doesn't even entertain the slightest doubt or fear then I commend you for it, but not everyone is that strong.

Most normal people don't check for resemblance to their close relatives when saving people during a disaster, dude. That's a really weird way to go about things. You don't have to literally defend absolutely every aspect of the character.

I thought that was the reason why he's going out of his way to help revive her pet since she asked why he'd go so far to help her and not the reason why he saved her from certain death.

KrayZ33

Tue, 07-31-2012, 02:21 PM

TThat isn't how people consciously make decisions normally. That's really fucking weird actually. The altruistic impulse is because people get distressed when they see other people suffer, not because they need to work out their family issues through a proxy.

look, Its exactly as fireheart says
I wrote just that... (and I didn't edit that part)
he saved her and then realized "hey, she looks like my kawaii imouto <3" and helped her even more

and about the "men help women more than they would help other men" part
its a basic instinct, its just that way... I don't really want to get into it and I can't promise 100% acuraccy but the core should be right:

Women are flight animals, Men are not... evolution "made" (as in darwin's theory... and not lamarck-style) women weak, because they have to feed their offspring, muscles would drain too much energy... they want to be protected
Men are stronger, normally they got the will to fight, they got muscles and power... they want to protect the women, which is weaker. both the "will to be protected" and the "will to protect" play a significant role in how you would react in a situation where you have to help either a man or a woman.

the so called "gentleman reflex" is very similiar to this (I don't know if that is the correct english translation)

and its a given that family members or people who resemble such members are being prioritized

darkshadow

Tue, 07-31-2012, 06:09 PM

Utwoots:

he most likely didn't want them to end that way and he regrets not telling them his real level? He went to the guild leader and told him everything, even though he didn't have too, he could've kept going with the "I'm just lvl 20 and couldn't help them :( " role but he didn't
because it was not his intention to hurt them, he wanted to help them, he wanted them to reach the front lines, he wanted them to reach their goals (or guild-leaders goals) by pushing them, but he pushed too hard. they themselves wanted to reach the front lines as fast as possible.

You seem to misunderstand something, I don't recall us ever saying his intention was for them to die, but if this was a US legal case, he would be charged with involuntary manslaughter; the keyword here is negligence, we said he lied and gave them a false sense of their own strength.
This was especially important when the group wanted to go to the instant death floor, yet even here he didn't think it was important to inform them of their possible easy deaths.

I don't know if you are bestowing some novel knowledge on us, but in the anime nothing indicates that he wanted to "push" them, he saved them because he happened to be around for whatever reason, he joined up with them for an undisclosed reason which was probably loneliness.
If he wanted to "push" them, he could've done so while telling his level; that way there would be no misunderstanding about the groups own strength, they would've probably not even brought up going to the instant kill floor, and this is how he caused their deaths.
Intentional or not, he was the cause of their deaths, which is hilarious cause it means him saving them initially was entirely pointless.

Oh and about your ass-grab about 95% of all players, in all online/mmo games I 've played, ranging from PSO till Dragon's Dogma, I've always encountered players that massively helped me out without any pretext.
I guess I'm lucky to meet that 5% of players for 11 years in a row right?

Tue, 07-31-2012, 07:52 PM

Yo just because you negative rep my posts doesn't mean you have a good point. In fact it pretty much implies you know you DON'T have a point and just want to shit out retribution anonymously instead of being able to discuss or defend your ideas.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 07-31-2012, 10:48 PM

You seem to misunderstand something, I don't recall us ever saying his intention was for them to die, but if this was a US legal case, he would be charged with involuntary manslaughter; the keyword here is negligence, we said he lied and gave them a false sense of their own strength.

If you want to sue for negligence, you'll have to prove all of:

1) That a duty of care was due to the plaintiff,
2) That the duty of care was breached,
3) and that the breaching of said duty of care resulted in the harming of the plaintiff.

Good luck proving the first part. He's not part of a profession where duty of care is implied when someone approaches you for service.

-------------------------------------

About the whole argument regarding Kirito not warning people about the next floor up....

- He did warn them and try to persuade them. It's not his right to bloody detain them. He's not their parent..
- The mob wasn't entirely wrong when they thought they could handle that upper floor. They beat the normal monsters without too much trouble.
- Kirito was surprised that there was a hidden trapdoor on such a low level. Clearly that indicates the trapdoor was not indicative of that floor's typical difficulty. The existence of such a floor on that level was also outside of Kirito's knowledge.
- The mob rushed forward thinking that since everything's gone according to expectations, this should be cakewalk.
- Kirito tried to warn them, but it turned out to be too late. Someone died.

^ Anything from the last three points look familiar?

It's the same shit that happened when they fought the Floor #1 Boss.

- device from higher level trickled down to a lower level.
- Someone got overconfident and rushed forward
- Kirito notices something, but was too late.

Sorry the almighty Beater wasn't as almighty as you wanted him to be. :/

----------------------------------

Now for the argument about helping Silica:

- he saved her because someone needed to be saved. That's IT.
- he "went so far" to help her because she looked cute and was like someone he knew. This isn't a "disaster" situation where everyone's fleeing from immediate danger like Y implies. Kirito is not in immediate danger or in desperate need of resources. He reached out to someone because they looked cute and familiar.
- Kirito was searching for Rosalia. Silica only turned out to be bait because of two things:

1) because someone was listening (hinting at an ambush - and Titan Hands could have been one such party.
2) Rosalia actually turned up.

Notice that Silica never mentioned Rosalia's name when they met on the street at night. Kirito didn't know her identity then.

-----------------------------------------------------

red = PK
orange = hurt/crime

This isn't explained in the episode, and doesn't make sense given the fact that we know her guild lures people in and kills them and yet is flagged orange and not red. But it's no problem, we have the spoiler crew here to talk about unnecessary technical derails.

I asked Arcness in chat and he said the colors got explained during his cheesecake dinner date (which I completely zoned out of). That being said, the player killer guild in episode four is clearly flagged orange, so again it's just more slipshod writing.

HAHA. No, really, I laughed. In a very sad way.

Firstly, no one said that the guild only consisted of the arrested party. Kirito said "green members" lure the travellers in. The guild could be larger than what was presented.

Secondly, Kirito mentioned that being Orange for a few days doesn't bother him. That means that infarction/warning levels subside over time. It's entirely plausible that Red can become Orange given time.

But lastly (at least for this section), the guild was out to steal rare items from people. They rob. If you hold onto your good too tightly.. then something might happen.

Note that Titan's Hand is labelled as the/an Orange Guild.

--------------------------------------------

Regarding Kirito admiring qualities of the Game Master.. so what? The game master is a genius. No evil-doing will change that. Someone who is unable to appreciate the merits of something simply because it's lumped with bad stuff in a single container (or because those merits are being used for a bad purpose) simply shows an inability to evaluate things.

You don't need a novel to read Kirito's character. My only exposure only consists of the 4 episodes aired. It's.. not that hard.

MasterOfMoogles

Tue, 07-31-2012, 11:00 PM

It is actually pretty easy to murder someone without being marked as a murderer.
Simply ambush them in a dungeon, force them to give you all of their equipment, and then leave them alone in the middle of the dungeon to try to escape without any weapons or armor.
Even in MMOs without pvp, there are also plenty of other ways to get players killed like training monsters on them and such (though most games nowadays put in things to avoid that).

In most games with pvp flagging type functionality, you can even do things like jumping in the line of fire to force someone to be flagged. Then you can proceed to "defend yourself" with no consequences.

Buffalobiian

Wed, 08-01-2012, 12:35 AM

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1143/75745457.png

About 12, per 1 rep...

That's the total damage you can do to me.

-I’m level 53.
-I have 6854 reputation points.
-My comment posting skill generates 215 points every 10 reps.
-We could stand here all day and you’d never beat me

Is that even possible?

-It is.
-High enough numbers will make you invincible.
-Forums that use a reputation system are unfair in that way.

Dark Dragon

Wed, 08-01-2012, 12:43 AM

Someone is just going around just neg repping everyone. There no point to even worry about it, probably just trying to stir more shit.

KrayZ33

Wed, 08-01-2012, 01:13 AM

I don't know if you are bestowing some novel knowledge on us, but in the anime nothing indicates that he wanted to "push" them,

then rewatch ep 3

Yo just because you negative rep my posts doesn't mean you have a good point. In fact it pretty much implies you know you DON'T have a point and just want to shit out retribution anonymously instead of being able to discuss or defend your ideas.

I havn't used the rep system for a year or so... funny though that you even care to check, its like you were waiting for someone to neg-rep you

Oh and about your ass-grab about 95% of all players, in all online/mmo games I 've played, ranging from PSO till Dragon's Dogma, I've always encountered players that massively helped me out without any pretext.
I guess I'm lucky to meet that 5% of players for 11 years in a row right?

ya sure....
everytime you asked for gold or assistance I bet you couldn't even handle all the whispers and kindness.

Wed, 08-01-2012, 01:50 AM

Someone is just going around just neg repping everyone. There no point to even worry about it, probably just trying to stir more shit.

It was me. I would have signed them but I didn't think it was appropriate. I thought that would have been obvious given my previous post.

I havn't used the rep system for a year or so... funny though that you even care to check, its like you were waiting for someone to neg-rep you

I only checked when DS mentioned in IRC that he was neg repped as well for this thread. I then neg repped everyone who disagreed with me. Booya.

MasterOfMoogles

Wed, 08-01-2012, 03:03 AM

You forum beaters, I didn't even know you could check your rep somewhere. How are us newbs supposed to get stronger without knowing this!?

On a somewhat different topic...
Ignoring the VR aspect and death game, does anyone think a MMO like SAO would be interesting to play?
I like the idea of a MMO where the players actually work towards a goal together and can clear it. I think the perma-character death would also be interesting with PvP. Would people be able to actually clear the game, or would it just be a grief fest?
$1 to create a character and play, but if you die, you're dead. You could offer incentives to kill the reds.

The grindy part of it doesn't seem like it would be that good, but I could imagine things where maybe as floors are cleared, players below could get benefits towards leveling or something.
I'm not really sure how you could capture the feel of the battle system, either.

Ryllharu

Wed, 08-01-2012, 03:21 AM

Instant grief fest.

The only thing that is keeping the non-psychopaths in the game from running around PK-ing each other is the threat of real death, and even that doesn't work if they're like Rosalia and don't believe it.

I'm a bit surprised the GM hasn't shown them reports of bodies, doing a public display to prove his point. I suppose you can always argue that he can fake it all, so it is really all pointless. The psychopaths are going to murder other people and probably get off on it.

MasterOfMoogles

Wed, 08-01-2012, 03:36 AM

I guess you're right. You don't think there would be enough people interested in actually clearing it to self-police? EVE Online is pretty free-reign on PvP isn't it? Is it a big grief fest?

The simple fact that they've been in the game longer than a few days should be enough for everyone to realize how real it is.
If there wasn't a threat of death, people would have just removed them from the game forcefully, or shut down the servers.

It is actually really interesting to think about what would happen in the real world if someone could take people hostage remotely and automatically like this.
Could they even arrest this guy if he said "Without me inputting a code every day, everyone within the game will die."?
Would you be willing to see if he is serious after a couple hundred people already died?

Ryllharu

Wed, 08-01-2012, 04:00 AM

EVE is 95% griefing. That's pretty much the whole point. News stories are written about the biggest takedowns.

Unfortunately, the only people who know the truth about the designer's claims are the ones on the outside. He has utter control over the inside of the game, he can show the players whatever he wants.

deathnightwc3

Wed, 08-01-2012, 11:22 PM

Can anyone explain to me how these people are still alive in the game with so much time passed? Or is the game's time a lot faster than real time?

darkshadow

Thu, 08-02-2012, 12:15 AM

Obviously all 8000 players have been hooked up to IV's and receive daily medical maintenance...

Archangel

Thu, 08-02-2012, 12:24 AM

Did you know there's a directly proportional relationship between how many times you say obviously and how much i want to kick you in the nads?

Hitokiri

Thu, 08-02-2012, 12:30 AM

Can anyone explain to me how these people are still alive in the game with so much time passed? Or is the game's time a lot faster than real time?

They'll touch on that later on.

Thu, 08-02-2012, 02:45 PM

...

I don't understand why you would think this is an acceptable post. It's both a spoiler and something that doesn't answer his question in any meaningful way.

Ryllharu

Sat, 08-04-2012, 04:51 PM

[HorribleSubs] Sword Art Online - 05 (720p) (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=338494)

---------------

WTF? A random mystery two-parter? The writing in this show is distinctly terrible compared to the hype behind it. This episode was generic trash, the kind of crap that is distinctly filler, just because the author gets bored with the main plot. Extra chapters exclusive to the manga volumes stuff.

The only reason I keep watching is because the insistence of the novel readers that it is good, but so far, this series is only barely on par with The Sacred Blacksmith (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=6546) (which in case you've never seen it, sucked).

At this point, I am beginning to sincerely doubt that this illusive main plot will somehow redeem all these terrible filler episodes. I'm just not seeing how any part of this would somehow make these utterly generic fantasy themed episodes "deeper" or more moving.

Sat, 08-04-2012, 05:56 PM

Forums? More like chatlogs.

<&Y> lol
<&Y> latest stop on the "Kirito is crazy" train
<&Y> he wants the battle plan to protect the fucking NPCs
<&Y> oh cool
<&Y> Asuna is now commander of a guild and has the total opposite personality from the last time we saw her
<&Y> glad all that development took place offscreen
<%Ryllharu> *vice-commander
<%Ryllharu> But point stands.
<&Y> he is actively refusing to participate lol
<&Y> this guy is a FUCKING PSYCHO
<&Y> killing a bunch of people through inaction? meh. luring the boss into conflict with npcs? war crime.
<%Ryllharu> It gets better Y, wait for the discussion of fairness and another dose of admiration for the creator
<&Y> "That's what I said, but I never expected her to actually do it"
<&Y> Kirito is the kind of guy who would hold an ingame funeral whenever the leader of the Horde gets killed by a raid of bored Alliance at 4AM
<&Y> oh yeah I love that 2 years later Kirito hasn't aged
<&Y> despite the game explicitly using your real face
<&Y> the sense of time and space in this series is really distorted
<&Y> like months/years pass abruptly and with little reason
<&Y> i guess you could write that up as a cheeky comment on how much of your life MMOs eat up
<&Y> Kiirito leaving the rest of the guys to do all the work, and of course the girl is the one who comes around to HIS perspective, not him coming to his fucking senses
<&Y> so far Asuna has been on camera for less than 30 seconds
<&Y> and 2 of the shots of her are a panty shot and a "sprawled out sleeping" shot
<&Y> ok, I can be positive too - someone getting town killed is exactly the kind of integration of the MMO setting I was just bitching about not having
<&Y> of course it's someone offscreen pushing the boundaries of the world instead of our characters, but still
<&Y> haha a gag where Kirito gets his hand crushed by Asuna! except no one feels pain, so the gag doesn't make any fucking sense
<&Y> another girl who apparently has purple anime hair irl
<&Y> the dev is pretty lazy
<&Y> he let a well known town kill bug stay live for 6 months?
<&Y> must be too busy jacking off to dead japanese girls

deathnightwc3

Sat, 08-04-2012, 08:16 PM

Considering how limited they are on episodes, I'm afraid that the main plot is going to be gutted pretty badly. =(

Buffalobiian

Sat, 08-04-2012, 10:06 PM

<&Y> haha a gag where Kirito gets his hand crushed by Asuna! except no one feels pain, so the gag doesn't make any fucking sense

It makes more sense that people should feel pain. Thus, the hand-gag does work. The part last episode where Kirito just let people cut him up shouldn't.

Purple is a real colour in anime. >_>

I can understand his thinking about NPCs somewhat. It depends on how advanced they are in terms of AI I guess as well.

Imagine if this wasn't SAO but in real life in the future.. and replace the NPCs with "Androids"/"Robots". Depending on their intelligence level, you can very well develop an attachment with them. If they're designed to simulate real humans, it's not absurd to think people can treat them as such.

Things with Asuna certainly didn't go the way I thought it would have. It's a surprise, but I wouldn't say I'm glad to see it.

As for the idea that no one's aging.. they didn't say whether the neurogear keeps syncing up with your appearance on a regular basis, right? That'd mean if you didn't get a haircut IRL, then doing so in the game is useless because it'd keep re-syncing.

Not to mention appearances don't have to change terribly much after 2 years.. if at all.

In terms of timeflow.. this could well be a prototype for Brain Burst.

Sat, 08-04-2012, 10:16 PM

It makes more sense that people should feel pain. Thus, the hand-gag does work. The part last episode where Kirito just let people cut him up shouldn't.

Kirito in the first episode states that you don't feel any pain from combat in SAO.

Purple is a real colour in anime. >_>

The point is that the writers obviously forgot everyone is supposed to look like they do in real life as soon as it was introduced. There are literally no fat, old, or extremely unattractive people after that one sight-gag and in every episode a woman is introduced who looks like a supermodel or a completely ridiculous anime character. I guess in the world of SAO, only extremely attractive women with impossible hair colors play MMORPGs.

I can understand his thinking about NPCs somewhat. It depends on how advanced they are in terms of AI I guess as well.

Your arms must be tired from doing all that stretching. Kirito is so engrossed in the false world they live in that he has concerns for the lives of respawning computer scripts. This very explicitly ISN'T flawless simulations of mankind, it's the fucking item shop vendors and town guards. There's a reason Asuna treats his suggestion to preserve the NPCs as crazy: He be crazy.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 08-04-2012, 11:13 PM

Your arms must be tired from doing all that stretching. Kirito is so engrossed in the false world they live in that he has concerns for the lives of respawning computer scripts. This very explicitly ISN'T flawless simulations of mankind, it's the fucking item shop vendors and town guards. There's a reason Asuna treats his suggestion to preserve the NPCs as crazy: He be crazy.

Is immersing yourself in a world you can't escape from (at the moment) something you should really call crazy?

Kirito's enjoying the game as he goes. He sees it as an experience, almost like a second, alternate life.

Asuna at the beginning sees the game as an obstacle that's getting in the way between her and the real world. She doesn't care for the process.

There's nothing wrong with seeing your participants in SAO as people, regardless of whether they're "real" outside of the world. It's not like Kirito is faced with the decision of choosing between:

a) Sacrificing the NPCs so they can get out of SAO, and
b) Spare the NPCs and stay stuck on your current floor forever.

David75

Sat, 08-04-2012, 11:54 PM

Does anyone think a NPC could be used for those in town killings?

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-05-2012, 12:05 AM

Does anyone think a NPC could be used for those in town killings?

I hadn't thought of that.. but that's interesting. How would you think it'd work?

Hiring an NPC assassin? Provoking an NPC and framing someone else so the NPC goes for someone else?

David75

Sun, 08-05-2012, 12:50 AM

We've got magic items, magicians and the likes. They could manipulate NPC's as tools, program them into doing THIS at THIS time to THAT person.

It's the dagger throw that had me think that, as I see NPC's they are pretty much like any other "human", same abilities. They are able to throw a dagger too. The only tricky part is that you should never be able to control them that much. But who knows, since PK is all about details...

Another thing that's bugging me, That purple hair girl dies from just one dagger?
She's already in the late 50 floors, she should have high enough HP to recover from a normal dagger.
Like the other guy should be able to recover from a normal spear.
I understand that weapons get deadlier when you get more HPs, it's just that they did not underline that. It even came to me as these are totally plain/normal weapons. So why do they kill people with respectable HPs so easily?

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-05-2012, 01:07 AM

We've got magic items, magicians and the likes.

There are healing and revival items, but in general I think they said before that SAO is characteristically void of mages and spells, right?

I understand that weapons get deadlier when you get more HPs, it's just that they did not underline that. It even came to me as these are totally plain/normal weapons. So why do they kill people with respectable HPs so easily?

It could be a skill that grants you a critical/sneak hit multiplier.

David75

Sun, 08-05-2012, 01:20 AM

No magic?
Forgot about that, especially when some players get skills that ressemble divination... or revelations about weapons for example.

Regardind the use of NPC, my guess is that using one a a tool to kill would still get you the kill. So use one that will use another NPC... I know, it's largely stretched. But I guess you could die from rocks falling on you, drowning and the likes. So potentially NPCs could accidentally kill you.
Now the details are how you control those accidents...

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 08-05-2012, 03:41 AM

Man, there are some super nitpicky complaints about this show. I guess if you really want to find something to hate it is easy to pick things out in anything, though.
Sure, you might not feel pain in SAO, but there is certainly discomfort if someone is crushing your hand. You would also expect pain so you have a programmed behavioral response.

About hair color, have you never played a game where you can change your character's style? Shoot, in WoW you can even race change now, can't you? Is it really such a stretch of the imagination that you might be able to dye your hair anime color in a game?

Regarding aging, the NervGear probably just scanned them in the beginning and doesn't do continuous updates. The full body scan required them to touch themselves all over and they obviously can't do that anymore.

Training a boss monster to town just sounds like a terrible idea in a game where life and death is on the line. Have you played a MMO where you could train a boss to town? Tons of random people die, the NPCs generally don't help, and sometimes they even make the boss stronger. Overall, it just seems like a terrible idea. People could die while you're not fighting it the way it is supposed to be fought. Additionally, it might have extra behavior regarding towns that would be bad for you and you really just have no idea what it is going to do. I remember one boss in WoW that would get stronger/heal itself everytime someone died. This included NPCs or just random level 10's that happened to be in town.

Ryllharu

Sun, 08-05-2012, 04:52 AM

Man, there are some super nitpicky complaints about this show. I guess if you really want to find something to hate it is easy to pick things out in anything, though.

Man, there are some super adamant defenders with this show. I guess if you really can't admit this series has serious writing problems it is easy to make things up to justify the issues, though.

Ridiculous hair colors I can forgive (that's easy), Kirito being a sociopath who displays disturbing admiration for the sociopath game creator...is kind of interesting actually (but he's certainly not a nice guy as others would try and have us believe), every girl being a supermodel is kinda weird but its anime, whatever.

But given the massive level of hype behind this series, I was expecting something better written than middle schooler fanfiction. They say this was his first series as part of a creative writing contest, and damn does it show. Don't try to tell us that these side stories are that much better when Kirito's full characterization from the main plot has already been presented. That's not going to fix it, and is just an excuse for bad writing and poor planning.

Maybe this anime is tailored to those who read the source material. But by no means does that constitute it being given a free pass from many of the well-deserved criticisms.

KrayZ33

Sun, 08-05-2012, 02:15 PM

didn't like this ep that much

- Kirito complaining about dying NPCs is super-stupid
there are tons of things that should be considered when you pull a boss into a town, but NPC casualties are not something you'd normally worry about...
something like "what about the low level players and player-merchants and blacksmiths who live in this town" would be more appropriate.. long distance pulls don't work well most of the times, one mistake and the boss hits you in the back, deaggroes and switches to some random player, and once that happens its hard to get it back in position. -> chaos bound to occur...

that aside
- At the moment it seems to be impossible to pk in towns, and in my opinion it has to be some kind of bugusing
whatever it is that allows someone to kill others just like that in town, I hope its something reasonable... and not some shit like "I hacked the system zomg rofl lololo"

also
its a shame that they don't show boss fights anymore, eps1-3 and even 4 were so enjoying to watch because it felt like a real MMO, at the moment its more like a normal anime with some fantasy setting.

I want some guild progress here, and some loot hunting there, some skill-builds on the left and some questing on the right.

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 08-05-2012, 03:24 PM

It would really suck if the NPCs didn't actually respawn and you got them all killed, especially if you needed one for an important quest or something.

KrayZ33

Sun, 08-05-2012, 03:26 PM

well Asuna said they are going to respawn, and no-one said that they don't

MasterOfMoogles

Sun, 08-05-2012, 03:29 PM

Since you can't kill players in town, I would suspect you can't kill NPCs in town. Not sure how you would really test it. It still seems like a pretty terrible idea.

KrayZ33

Sun, 08-05-2012, 03:47 PM

only because players can't kill them doesn't mean monsters can't

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-05-2012, 07:22 PM

I assumed they were going to evacuate the town of players before they did their luring, since worrying about NPCs over players would be stupid. You'd have to be a pretty big group of assholes if Kirito was the only one concerned about any vulnerable characters being killed in this plan.

Regarding the town-PKs, it could be possible that staying inside a town doesn't make you safe from attacks but instead makes you unable to kill another player outside of a duel. If that is true, then a player who has acquired a way to accurately launch projectiles from outside the town can exploit the code.

Yukimura

Tue, 08-07-2012, 02:18 PM

With each episode I'm believing more and more in an endgame for this story that makes out Kirito as the only 'right' person in the whole world for holding to the worldview that the game is 'real' and should be treated as such. I'm also still holding onto the idea that the final epilogue will reveal that no one was actually dying, only getting permanently locked out of the game, and perhaps that a brain bust like time dilation effect was in play such that all of this is happening within only a few hours of real time. As for how Kirito ends up being 'the righteous hero' in the end I think it's telling that so far he is the the only major character who seems to fully accept what the game is trying to sell to players, namely that it is so completely immersive that it should be treated as an equivalent replacement for the real world with all the implications that implies.

With episode 5 to contrast with Kirito's interactions with characters in the previous episodes demonstrate that he is drawn to people who encounter 'real' problems in the course of 'living' in the game. The guild in episode 3 and the girl in episode 4 seemed a lot closer to 'living' the world than the front-liners who seem much more focused on 'defeating' the game rather than living it. The people in episode 3 and 4 ran into in game problems that Kirito helped them with (or didn't so much in the case of ep 3) with his 'life' skills acquired in game because that's what he wanted to do as a person living in that world, not because it was the shortest path to victory and escape. On the other hand the front-liners behave more like SAO is very dangerous, but ultimately, just a game. They want to 'win' as soon as possible and don't seem to care about anything else or take the time to experience life within the game. Now I'm more interested in knowing what role things like eating and drinking play in the game and whether they are actually necessary to survival. If they aren't then how people approach them would offer further insight into how they are experiencing the world.

The NPC worry is another example of separating Kirito's mindset from that of the other front-liners. In the real world, even if you're on an adventure to slay some monster (or say Hitler), you should care about the random townsfolk in some village you pass through. Ideally, you shouldn't be willing to sacrifice them in order to get your end goal. In a game this is understandable because hey, they aren't real, it's just a game so all that matters is your goal. But my hunch is the SAO creator wanted to make a game experience so real that you couldn't justify any actions with 'hey, it's just a game' and Kirito is the one person among the front-liners who has bought into that idea that the SAO world is equal to the real world and is trying to live in it rather than just survive it and finish it.

Completely changing gears for a moment, the idea of sleep PK seems to destroy the supposed fairness of the game, plus it seems quite implausible from a game design standpoint to the point that it must have either been added to showcase just how twisted the game maker is or it is a poorly thought out plot device put in b/c the author wanted some cheap drama/danger. The helmet connects directly to your brain so there is no reason anyone else needs to be able to see whatever menu screens you're looking at in game. Similarly, the designer had little reason to make your characters physical input necessary for making selections on the menu screen, that could all have been handled by reading intentions from brain signals and applying them to the screen, whether others could see the screen or not. Now putting aside the fact that the screen being visible to all is unnecessary and that physical motion being tied to menu manipulation is unnecessary the idea that a sleeping persons involuntary finger motions can translate into game actions is plausible, but simply ridiculous from a 'fairness' standpoint. The game hardware KNOWS what your brain does when you move your finger to press a button on the screen, those signals will obviously not be present when you are asleep and someone moves your finger to press a button, so why would the game accept this input except as a service to the plot convenience gods? I am willing to overlook this on the assumption that the game designer is an asshole but to me it still reeks of a poorly thought out plot device. However, if we're going with it I would expect to see gangs of muggers who go around holding players down and forcing their arms to press the buttons that would transfer all their stuff to their attackers.

Kraco

Tue, 08-07-2012, 02:33 PM

Now I'm more interested in knowing what role things like eating and drinking play in the game and whether they are actually necessary to survival. If they aren't then how people approach them would offer further insight into how they are experiencing the world.

If they can taste and feel what they eat and drink, then it will offer considerably less insight. After all, potato chips and candies serve no nutritional purpose in RL, yet people eat them, as well as booze can be hard to justify unless it's a part of a social gathering, yet people drink it happily (not counting pro drunkards here). Similarly people would eat and drink the virtual food and drinks if it gives them the pleasure of taste and the familiar feeling of chewing something.

fireheart

Tue, 08-07-2012, 03:49 PM

Well they probably can taste things judging by the conversation that Kirito and Asuna had about the bread in episode 2.

Buffalobiian

Tue, 08-07-2012, 06:57 PM

If the game is trying to simulate a world, it makes sense for the menu to be physically accessible instead of making everyone feel like they've got telekinetic powers. Your finger motions will make menu navigation more akin to flicking through a journal/inventory/manual that's in the game rather than interacting with an interface that lies outside the game.

Tue, 08-07-2012, 10:40 PM

With each episode...

I really don't want this series to reward Kirito's early actions. He SAYS he feels more alive in the VR world than reality, but he treats people as disposable and lives a disconnected, empty life there as well. Rewarding that as some kind of Platonic ideal of action in this situation is a pretty sadistic and ugly ending.

The NPC worry..

Again, you want Kirito's weird moral disconnect - the fact that he cares more for scripted computer programs than humans - to be rewarded as the "correct" viewpoint to take in this situation, and not only that, for it to be a good thing because it most closely conforms to the crazy, evil game designer's ideals. Once again, what a nasty, fucked up main character.

Completely changing gears for a moment....

The sleep-PK thing is a great use of the setting, imo. Simple, gamebreaking bugs like that can't be corrected in this scenario, because it's not as though the game designer can push some server restarts and patch the game up. It does show how crazy disconnected from reality Kirito is: "This game world is fair. That's why you can kill people in their sleep by moving their hands around, and it's never been fixed. I'm fucking retarded."

Kraco

Wed, 08-08-2012, 01:41 AM

The sleep-PK thing is a great use of the setting, imo. Simple, gamebreaking bugs like that can't be corrected in this scenario, because it's not as though the game designer can push some server restarts and patch the game up. It does show how crazy disconnected from reality Kirito is: "This game world is fair. That's why you can kill people in their sleep by moving their hands around, and it's never been fixed. I'm fucking retarded."

In fact it is fair. People can and should be possible to kill more easily during their sleep. What is not fair is that towns are supposedly safe places. Why exactly should it be impossible to slay somebody in a straight-forward manner in a town when you can do it just fine outside of the arbitrary border separating a town from the wilderness? Rather than the sleep duel being an ugly bug, I'd say making the towns safe from direct PvP is a compromise the designer had to make to draw people in in the first place. Whatever method was used to kill the two poor saps in the latest ep was another crack in the unreasonable safety of the towns, and I'd bet the designer left such gaps there fully on purpose.

deathnightwc3

Wed, 08-08-2012, 01:46 AM

Well if this game takes in reality's way of 'beta to finished game', there will always be a niche group of players who can and will exploit bugs without reporting them. So I'm not all that surprised that the game has a few bugs here and there.

Kraco

Wed, 08-08-2012, 03:06 AM

Besides, if they can build a direct neural interface device, you'd think they would have figured out already how to patch a game without a need to reboot. The fact it's now necessary is only due to programming conventions stemming from the ancient 80's. It's a different thing, though, if there are anybody around to patch anything anymore. The big evil designer should be either in police custody or hiding in some third world country. Who knows about other programmers, but one would guess they never knew about all this and potentially could still be available to fix things. But then again, the designer must have disabled the necessary outside monitoring and editing capabilities from everybody or else the code could be fixed to include the quit button.

Wed, 08-08-2012, 12:11 PM

In fact it is fair. People can and should be possible to kill more easily during their sleep.

You're confusing "realism" for fairness here.

Yukimura

Wed, 08-08-2012, 01:48 PM

Again, you want Kirito's weird moral disconnect - the fact that he cares more for scripted computer programs than humans - to be rewarded as the "correct" viewpoint to take in this situation, and not only that, for it to be a good thing because it most closely conforms to the crazy, evil game designer's ideals. Once again, what a nasty, fucked up main character.

I agree he'd be a nasty fucked up main character if the series tried to justify his behavior through plot convenience, but even if the creator tried to reward him with the moral high ground or some other sort of vindication, we don't have to agree and decide he's a great guy. That said I would value the show more if they tried to pull something like that than I expect to if it turns out the story is just another rehash of the hero's journey type redemption/maturation story and Kirito learns the value of friendship and teamwork through the adversity of grinding his way to floor 100 to defeat the big bad boss.

Wed, 08-08-2012, 02:29 PM

the story is just another rehash of the hero's journey type redemption/maturation story and Kirito learns the value of friendship and teamwork through the adversity of grinding his way to floor 100 to defeat the big bad boss.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Kraco

Wed, 08-08-2012, 03:08 PM

You're confusing "realism" for fairness here.

Not really. How Kirito could just stand still on the bridge while a bunch of guys were exhausting themselves trying to beat his auto-regeneration speed with their lacking damage was hardly fair and even less realistic. Being able to slay a careless sleeper is realism but it's also fairness in the sense it allows a less strong character to get even with a strong one. In my opinion if you aren't wise and watch your back, it's only fair someone will exploit that carelessness without the game engine getting too much in the way.

Wed, 08-08-2012, 04:31 PM

Being able to slay a careless sleeper is realism but it's also fairness in the sense it allows a less strong character to get even with a strong one.

So it's fairness in the sense that it isn't fair. Obviously, pushing someone's hand to accept a duel and killing them in their sleep is not an equitable or morally fair outcome for the victim. Come on.

Kraco

Wed, 08-08-2012, 05:18 PM

That's only a detail dictated by the game mechanics. It equals perfectly to simply catching somebody asleep and thus completely vulnerable and slitting their throat (which the game engine doesn't happen to allow for whatever reason). I fail to see how that's not fair. Surely it's every bit as fair as some high level mofo one-hit killing a lower level player in the wilds. There's nothing at all preventing players from taking precautions against sleep duels, like choosing a decent location for the nap or having somebody on guard when others sleep.

I don't know why it should be a great shock to anyone that bad things can happen to a sleeping person found by a villain. They at least believe they are inside a lethal game, so it would make more sense to doubt any gaming convention they learned from normal games.

Wed, 08-08-2012, 06:19 PM

Buffalobiian

Wed, 08-08-2012, 06:21 PM

It's fair in that the act is available to everybody.

Thu, 08-09-2012, 12:11 AM

It's fair in that the act is available to everybody.

This isn't the definition of fair that I, the writers, or to be honest you would ever use. That's like saying shooting another player during a football game is a fair move because anyone can bring a gun into the stadium.

Buffalobiian

Thu, 08-09-2012, 01:42 AM

This isn't the definition of fair that I, the writers, or to be honest you would ever use. That's like saying shooting another player during a football game is a fair move because anyone can bring a gun into the stadium.

That's because shooting itself is against the law. Regardless of whether guns are available to everyone or not, the act of shooting someone without being provoked demands punishment.

Kraco

Thu, 08-09-2012, 02:39 AM

Neither of these things are "fair". What world do you live in where killing someone in their sleep constitutes a fair fight.

What world? Sword Art Online. You are forgetting we are talking about a game world where the emphasis is solely on fights. If you are thinking all fights need to be knightly one vs one melees in a clearing with a crowd cheering around, you are mistaken. That would be utterly unfair against the type who prefer more intelligence and subterfuge.

In our world, specifically our more or less peaceful countries, killing someone is most of the time unfair because you clearly aren't meant to kill anyone. The only fair kills would be the police (or self-defending gun owners) killing a totally out of control criminal shooting left and right endangering everybody.

Thu, 08-09-2012, 11:41 AM

Thanks for these two really stupid defenses of a bad line because, for some reason, you like this show so much the main character has to never make a mistake.

KrayZ33

Thu, 08-09-2012, 12:26 PM

sleep-PK = Exploit

the question whether its "fair" or not should be irrelevant with this, its not working as intended, thus not one of the game designers given rules.

the question is whether you can call such a game "fair" at all, just like with most other rpg-games.

certain builds could be stronger than others in some areas, certainly not fair for the guy with the disadvantage in that moment, but he might shine elsewhere. so its "fair" again isn't it?
I couldn't follow Kirito when he was talking about items which are able to bypass town-security... sure thing it sounds unfair.. I give him that

the town IS suppossed to be a safe Haven, you arn't able to hit anyone there under normal circumstances (anyone playing MMOs would most likely think its not intended to hurt people in town, I agree with that myself), but why does he consider it "unfair" if there are *skills* or items which allow to bypass that security... after all - if its a skill, that guy has to spent points for that which he could use to increase his PvE-effectiveness or something like that AND (if there are no classes, which I'm not sure off so far) everyone has the possibility to set a point into that skill don't they?

and if its a special item, then it most likely dropped off some random monster, then again, everyone is able to farm that type of monster....
which brings me to another point, there is a loot-system and a level-system
the game has always moments where it is not "fair", a higher level could easily bash any lower level somewhere outside of town, that was shown in ep 4... (he even said that games like this are unfair, lulz)

and a "last hit"- loot bonus? certainly not fair at all if you consider that you can get that even though you did nothing during the first 99% of the fight

I wonder why they even care to explain so much shit
their episodes are limited and the only episode which showed some real fighting so far was EP2
I want them to go back to that.. they sure made a *HUGE* mistake by skipping so much stuff,
they should've gone slower.. maybe the episode themselves would show and proof most of the game rules then. and the most important part, people wouldn't care about minor contradictions.

but this is really weird, EP4 was like "I'LL SHOW YOU HOW UNFAIR GAMES LIKE THIS ARE, SO DON'T YOU DARE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT OR IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!"
and then 1 ep later "This game is actually pretty much fair :3 "

not only that but, lets call it the reunion of Asuna and Kirito had nearly no impact on me.... and here I thought it's going to be a big thing when they meet again... some drama or some sort'

Kraco

Thu, 08-09-2012, 12:49 PM

the question whether its "fair" or not should be irrelevant with this, its not working as intended, thus not one of the game designers given rules.

How do you know that? What is the point the game creator is trying to make with all this? Whatever it is, the people in believe they are fighting for their lives as much as people in a war torn country in RL. Maybe the creator never intended towns to be safe havens in the first place and that's simply what the players assumed because they tend to be in many MMOs and superficially they seemed to be in this one as well. But reality has now revealed them real gaps in that assumed safety. Now they know this deadly game has no utterly safe places whatsoever, which might very well be as intended by the creator.

KrayZ33

Thu, 08-09-2012, 01:24 PM

How do you know that?

because you need to accept it?
why such a pop-up-window in the first place otherwise?

which might very well be as intended by the creator.

thats 100% not the case
I'll believe it if the first player-mage shows up and thats when I'll drop the show.

so random.
you could also say that the game designer deleted the log-out button, but if you turn 180° jump 2 times and run 3 steps backwards you'll log out, he just wants them to THINK that they can't log out!
but my guess is that a succesfull log out by turning 180° degrees, jumping 2 times and running 3 steps backwards is not intended too

Kraco

Thu, 08-09-2012, 02:04 PM

So, the creator is evil enough to trap thousands of mostly young guys and gals into a game for months, dooming their physical bodies to life support and telling them they die also in RL should they die in the game, and you think he's so sweet a man he wouldn't purposefully leave a few holes in the game to make things even more "interesting"?

It sure is an exploit because it works in such a roundabout way, but it doesn't mean it wasn't left there on purpose for the crafty ones to find and use to terrorise the gullible. Also, we have so far no idea how the recent couple of people were killed, since they surely weren't in a duel. Maybe it's even more strange than force challenging a sleeping person, but nevertheless only time, if even it, will tell whether it's intentional or not. You are free to believe it's not, I'll stick to believing the creater is even more nefarious.

KrayZ33

Thu, 08-09-2012, 02:22 PM

it doesn't make much sense imho

if he wants people to die and feel unsafe in towns too, he could've made it possible for players to fight and kill each other in towns too. why do it in such a roundabout way?

well, whatever next ep will show how it was done

Buffalobiian

Thu, 08-09-2012, 09:08 PM

but this is really weird, EP4 was like "I'LL SHOW YOU HOW UNFAIR GAMES LIKE THIS ARE, SO DON'T YOU DARE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT OR IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!"
and then 1 ep later "This game is actually pretty much fair :3 "

-We could stand here all day and you’d never beat me

Is that even possible?

-It is.
-High enough numbers will make you invincible.
-MMOs that use a levelling system are unfair in that way.

Kirito was saying that MMOs with levelling are unfair in the way that you can build a character with stats to the point where your regeneration exceeds the damage you take from lower level guys. The "unfairness" refers to the fact that the lower levels have ZERO chances of winning if their damage output isn't high enough.

On the other hand, if stronger characters didn't have stats that allowed for such regeneration, lower levels would still have a hope/chance to eventually chip away the stronger opponent's HP to zero.

This is an "unfairness" inherent to the levelling system. Kirito said that the rules of SAO are essentially fair.

KrayZ33

Thu, 08-09-2012, 11:02 PM

and how is a SKILL or weapon that allows someone to bypass town security unfair?
unless it was given to him by the GM himself.

This is an "unfairness" inherent to the levelling system. Kirito said that the rules of SAO are essentially fair.

there is also no rule that prevents low level bashing...

I think Kirito meant this:
SAO is fair in a way that the rules apply to everyone, there are no exceptions... this is why he can't believe that one guy is able to kill people in towns, while others have to duel someone to do it

Buffalobiian

Thu, 08-09-2012, 11:35 PM

and how is a SKILL or weapon that allows someone to bypass town security unfair?
unless it was given to him by the GM himself.

I actually never really considered that skill/weapon thing unfair in the sense that it's not available to everyone. In that sense I agree (and even encourage) the idea that it's an obtainable skill and is completely alright to have.

One can argue that it's "unfair" in that it's giving people license to kill in a no-kill zone.., but that's not an argument I'm going to push.

there is also no rule that prevents low level bashing...

I don't consider low-level bashing being something unfair to the extent that warrants a rule to prevent it.

I think Kirito meant this:
SAO is fair in a way that the rules apply to everyone, there are no exceptions... this is why he can't believe that one guy is able to kill people in towns, while others have to duel someone to do it

While I more or less agree with this, examples like the Listening skill show that skills designed to overcome barriers aren't unheard of in the game.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 08-11-2012, 09:19 PM

HorribleSubs - Episode 06 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=340912)

Ryllharu

Sun, 08-12-2012, 03:07 AM

This episode put me to sleep. I mean that quite seriously.

David75

Sun, 08-12-2012, 03:19 AM

This episode put me to sleep. I mean that quite seriously.

I couldn't help but think it was so averagely average that it was worthless.
Once they told us the trick, what is left is very low end average "love" anime drama and potential teen love story.

KrayZ33

Sun, 08-12-2012, 04:10 AM

better than last ep imho

2 bad there was no PK in the end after all, especially when those freaks came up

Yukimura

Mon, 08-13-2012, 09:44 AM

Wow, great way to throw away a perfectly good debate point surrounding the rules and the game and the idea that things aren't quite as they seem while still sticking to the murder mystery archetype complete with a seen from a mile away twist. What have we gained from these two episodes other than a few scenes of Asuna demonstrating that she's a mild tsundere and that some people are crazy or assholes or both?

Kraco

Mon, 08-13-2012, 03:07 PM

So, the lesson of this whole escapade is that Asuna wants to marry Kirito in game?

I wish it had been a lesson on the loopholes, whether intended or bugs, in the game engine, instead. I won't be calling the plot totally worthless as it did have the crazy murder gang and the unbelievably weak husband, but all in all the resolution doomed these episodes more or less meaningless in the bigger picture (unless Kirito really marries Asuna...).

Mon, 08-13-2012, 03:11 PM

This is a pretty bad show six episodes in. The first episode is the only one where the script doesn't totally sink the whole proceedings. Episode six was, as usual, dumb as shit. So, they were just teleporting away instead of dying? Ok, so where is the teleport graphic? We've seen it, and it's completely visually distinctive from the death animation, and is not present at all during either of the "deaths". This is like the most elementary fuckup in telling a mystery story - making the mystery impossible to solve because the writer cheated to hide information from you, in this case, the fact that they were escaping with teleports.

Hitokiri

Fri, 08-17-2012, 01:20 AM

better than last ep imho

2 bad there was no PK in the end after all, especially when those freaks came up

Wow, those three badass PKers just wussed out when he showed up. Did the leader actually have a blue colored scar on his cheek?

MasterOfMoogles

Fri, 08-17-2012, 04:13 AM

It seems unlikely that murderers could easily hang out on the front lines, so even if they're super strong, they probably aren't as high level as Kirito. Also, if they knew who he was and also believed his bluff about the front-liners showing up, it makes sense they would book it.

I was pretty disappointed with the death animations, too. I went back and compared them to the other ones (Diabel, Black Cats), and they all look the same - no way to tell that there is actually a trick to these. It is possible to arrive at the "Nobody could have killed them, so it must be fake" conclusion anyways, but since they don't go into the systems very much that is a pretty hard conclusion to reach.

I also don't like Griselda's ghost showing up. Just way too cheesy.

KrayZ33

Fri, 08-17-2012, 09:26 AM

Wow, those three badass PKers just wussed out when he showed up. Did the leader actually have a blue colored scar on his cheek?

looked like a tatoo for me

Fri, 08-17-2012, 02:35 PM

The fact that everyone skilled at the game apparently looks just like an anime character in real life is one of the best jokes of the series.

KrayZ33

Fri, 08-17-2012, 02:43 PM

say - whaaaaaat?

you mean, just like all the actors in movies look like actors in RL? oh digidi-damn

Fri, 08-17-2012, 03:05 PM

say - whaaaaaat?

you mean, just like all the actors in movies look like actors in RL? oh digidi-damn

The show in the first episode goes out of its way to show you that most of the players are actually nerdy, overweight, men pretending to be women, etc when the game designer turns off their avatars and makes the characters look like their real selves. Thereafter this is entirely ignored and everyone's design is obviously fantastical. This is actually like the inverse of the Ocean's 12 joke where people suddenly realize that Julia Roberts' character looks like Julia Roberts. The show goes out of its way to explain that in this world, people won't look like anime characters but instead like real people, and then subverts that over and over again. It's pretty funny regardless of whether it's intentional because I laugh every time I see another highly skilled MMORPG player with the body of a supermodel.

KrayZ33

Fri, 08-17-2012, 03:20 PM

thats anime

I consider most characters shown in this show rather ugly in terms of the shounen "anime-character-beautifulness-level"

fat, stubbly beards, extremely thin bodies, long male hair - from time to time... some characters in ep 1 showed up later from what I could make out, like the dragon-pet girl and the cross dressing dude and the fat-man.
(guess what, not all good gamers are fat n ugly btw..)

Ryllharu

Fri, 08-17-2012, 04:33 PM

The show in the first episode goes out of its way to show you that most of the players are actually nerdy, overweight, men pretending to be women, etc when the game designer turns off their avatars and makes the characters look like their real selves. Thereafter this is entirely ignored and everyone's design is obviously fantastical. This is actually like the inverse of the Ocean's 12 joke where people suddenly realize that Julia Roberts' character looks like Julia Roberts. The show goes out of its way to explain that in this world, people won't look like anime characters but instead like real people, and then subverts that over and over again. It's pretty funny regardless of whether it's intentional because I laugh every time I see another highly skilled MMORPG player with the body of a supermodel.
Which I find very interesting, considering that the protagonist of the pseudo-sequel set in the same universe (yet started a season earlier), Accel World (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8691), is short, fat, and out of shape.

It's like the author realized how wasted the potential of that incongruity was, and utilized it properly the next time. Their avatars are even created by facets of their insecurities and mental trauma.

Makes Sword Art Online seem even more like a beta version of the story the author wanted to tell.

Buffalobiian

Fri, 08-17-2012, 09:49 PM

I'd say it's more accurate to say that the system decided that it didn't want players to look like MMORPG characters and instead want them to look like anime characters (since this is anime, after all), but whatever..

I took that move as having 2 reasons:

1) The creator wanted the players to act more like themselves (whether or not their "real" selves are more like real people or anime people.

2) For the (fake couple) lulz.

edit: I guess as a third point, it just goes to show how far the creator's hacked their NervGear to convince players that he's got enough control to fry their brains IRL.

Sat, 08-18-2012, 01:46 AM

Which I find very interesting, considering that the protagonist of the pseudo-sequel set in the same universe (yet started a season earlier), Accel World (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8691), is short, fat, and out of shape.

It's like the author realized how wasted the potential of that incongruity was, and utilized it properly the next time. Their avatars are even created by facets of their insecurities and mental trauma.

Makes Sword Art Online seem even more like a beta version of the story the author wanted to tell.

That's really interesting. As far as I can tell from the Wikipedia publication history, SAO was very literally a trial run for his later work.

I'd say it's more accurate to say that the system decided that it didn't want players to look like MMORPG characters and instead want them to look like anime characters (since this is anime, after all), but whatever..

I took that move as having 2 reasons:

1) The creator wanted the players to act more like themselves (whether or not their "real" selves are more like real people or anime people.

2) For the (fake couple) lulz.

edit: I guess as a third point, it just goes to show how far the creator's hacked their NervGear to convince players that he's got enough control to fry their brains IRL.

The answer is that the writers forgot, or don't care, that people are supposed to look like real people (I've played a lot of online games. Women like the leader of the PK guild not only don't play those games, they don't exist). I think the show could actually make a funny gag of it by having one of the characters comment on the absurdity, but it appears entirely unintentional.

Kraco

Sat, 08-18-2012, 02:32 AM

I don't see the point of expecting the central characters to represent reality. The scene in the first episode was clearly for a momentary sense of realism (like making the players really feel that's their life for now) and for the lulz like Bill said. Afterwards it was gradually dropped because this is purely fictional drama, not even fake reality TV. The whole background idea of these guys' bodies being on life support for months while they play would be unbelievable in reality. As if officials would allow that instead of safely removing the Nerv Gear helmets. Also, I don't know how product safety supervision goes in Japan, but I'd imagine a device directly affecting the central nervous system, potentially lethally, would require something more than the assurance of the manufacturer that it's okay. So, when things like these are ignored, I think it's perfectly reasonable they make the bigger characters more pleasant to the eyes and interest of the audience.

Archangel

Sat, 08-18-2012, 10:34 PM

This show is slowly but steadily becoming a goddamn waste of my time.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-19-2012, 12:58 AM

If all goes well, maybe we'll get an S2 where shit gets serious or something. Queen's Blade was a nice surprise. That show had tits going for the first season though, but maybe the fanbase for SAO would be enough to match that.

I looked at the stats of the two swords that were featured here. From that alone, the Dark Repulsor doesn't seem to be as strong as the Elucidator, unless "Strength" and "Running" are responsible for that difference. It sounds weird that someone would request Kirito for a sword (since he said it was a "request") when they should just ask a blacksmith themselves.

Kraco

Sun, 08-19-2012, 05:58 AM

This show is getting mushier and mushier with each episode. Seriously, they should have got another director for this one clearly doesn't have what it takes.

What's it with all the girls falling for Kirito? Shouldn't the game have loads of guys and few girls? It feels more than unlikely so many of those scarce girls would then fall for the antisocial loner (although he's clearly not as antisocial anymore as he was in the beginning). Or are all the other potential guys too busy fighting the game to socialize at all? Maybe that's the crucial factor, after all, since normal people would probably prioritize surviving the game as fast as possible much higher than Kirito, who's right at home stuck there.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-19-2012, 06:14 AM

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that we're skipping all the levelling stuff and just getting little "Kirito's side adventure" stories.

Druaga was mostly linear, and I can't say that was a huge success.

Ryllharu

Sun, 08-19-2012, 06:17 AM

Druaga didn't take itself seriously. Arguably, Druaga never took itself seriously. That's why it worked in all the places SAO doesn't. Druaga didn't wait until episode 4 for a tentacle scene, and the main character wasn't a Mary Sue.

fireheart

Sun, 08-19-2012, 07:50 AM

I looked at the stats of the two swords that were featured here. From that alone, the Dark Repulsor doesn't seem to be as strong as the Elucidator, unless "Strength" and "Running" are responsible for that difference. It sounds weird that someone would request Kirito for a sword (since he said it was a "request") when they should just ask a blacksmith themselves.

Well from what Asuna said didn't Kirito want the sword for himself? There's durability on all the equipments so it's probably a good idea to have some spares and having one that's as good as the one he usually uses is probably preferred. And he did say he wanted a sword that's as good or better than the one he had and it's pretty close to the same stats. Also it said Dark Repulsor + 0 so I'm guessing you can enchant/enhance it while you can't do it with Elucidator since there weren't any + number on it.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-19-2012, 08:35 AM

You must be right. I was basing my previous thoughts heavily on "My request is complete" at 17:00.. as in he was given a request to fulfil.

David75

Sat, 08-25-2012, 03:03 PM

[HorribleSubs] Sword Art Online - 08 [1080p].mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=345461)

"People stopped trying to clear the game"
"I wonder if it was what the creator of the game wanted"

Well, to me he wanted people to clear the game.

An easy way would be to have a level to disappear every day (or 2 days) starting from the first and every item/people/enemies from that level moved to the upper one.

That would really spice things up.

So we got yet another slice of life ep with a little action. Probably some PK to come and the blame to be put on the two lovers...

Archangel

Sat, 08-25-2012, 04:27 PM

So are we finally in the second volume or what? This chapter seemed a lot more interesting than the last few.

MasterOfMoogles

Sat, 08-25-2012, 04:59 PM

Actually, we're finally in the first volume.
The Black Swordsman (Scilia), Warmth of the Heart (Lizbet), and Red-nosed Reindeer (Black Cats) are all from volume 2.
The murder case is from volume 8.
Aria in the Starless Night is a side story (not sure if it was published, or released as a doujin from the author, or just posted on his website).
The only material from volume 1 was episode 1 and now this.

I'm looking forward to when they fight The Gleameyes, he looks pretty beast.

Buffalobiian

Sat, 08-25-2012, 09:53 PM

Creepy stalker guy...

.. I'm expecting Asuna to quit her guild one of these days if this keeps up. Partying with Kirito should be enough to show her that's going with a guild is not the only way to play with support, and likewise for Kirito.

I would have cut that guy up in the duel. Since you supposedly can't feel pain, it doesn't "hurt" to do it. He won't have to pay for a new weapon neither. It'll also mean that he's got to stay inside a town while he heals himself (unless he goes to purchase healing potions), so he'll be out of the way of the date as well.

Plus.. there's no blaming the weapon and all. Sometimes trying to act nice and honourable just isn't as good as giving a clear backhand to the face.

KrayZ33

Sun, 08-26-2012, 03:39 AM

ep was fun to watch, I hope it will stay like this.

If I were Kirito, I'd be pissed if my rarest drop so far has been a cooking ingredient

Ryllharu

Sun, 08-26-2012, 05:55 AM

This chapter seemed a lot more interesting than the last few.
Indeed. This was the first episode that actually felt like it had a connection to any of the other episodes, much less an actual narrative for once.

Stand alone episodes are not the author's strong suit. It was impossible to care about any of the side-story girls before, or even Asuna herself.

@MasterOfMoogles
I don't think it is a matter of whether or not this was part of the actual first volume and story, the side stories were just really poorly written, and frankly not engaging, due to a variety of factors already sufficiently beaten to death.

The setting was actually utilized in this episode, and that made a big difference.
- Guild "politics"
- Kirito is still considered a cheating a-hole (despite there being no way a beta player could have gotten this far), but also people underestimate him because if there was someone as strong as he is, there's no way they wouldn't be in a guild, or the leader of one.
- Many just living their lives in the game, few still trying to leave.
- Lots of "useless" skills that people power level, but Asuna still lamenting that it is way to simplified, something I thought during the blacksmith episode that went unmentioned by the characters.

A lot of the side episodes could be transplanted directly out of Generic Swordplay Fantasy anime #158 (or even cyberpunk anime #213) and you'd never even know it.

NeoCybercoin

Sun, 08-26-2012, 06:50 AM

Kraco

Sun, 08-26-2012, 07:15 AM

Probably some PK to come and the blame to be put on the two lovers...

You can't really blame anybody of the worst deeds with the colour of the diamond indicating what they have and haven't done. I wouldn't be surprised if the shady figure tried to get the dishonoured escort dude to use dirty tricks against Kirito.

- Lots of "useless" skills that people power level, but Asuna still lamenting that it is way to simplified, something I thought during the blacksmith episode that went unmentioned by the characters.

I'm wondering if that cooking skill really is useless or if there's some underlying mechanism encouraging people to delevop also "useless" skills. Like there being two categories of skills and you can't use all points inside the useful category. Or perhaps cooking can be used as a fast alchemy skill.

Anyway, I quite liked this episode. But then again, I don't think anything else was needed but having Kiroto and Asuna in the same scenes to make me happy... Though I'm still wishing Kirito would be colder and more badass in the company of strangers (like would be fitting for the lone black swordsman) and only all mushy in Asuna's company.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-26-2012, 07:21 AM

So they say that the movements of monsters are becoming more and more irregular as well as the fact that they tend to do things they shouldn't be able to do before ( as far as I gathered ) and yet they insist a boss can't leave it's room. I've got a feeling this one can and that all hell will break loose after.

Quite possibly so. My initial feeling was that the hooded guy was going to push them into the room (since I also assumed that by taking a peek, they meant from outside the room in case the doors closed on them).. but that doesn't seem to be the case.

- Kirito is still considered a cheating a-hole (despite there being no way a beta player could have gotten this far),

The part I didn't like (because of inconsistency) is that the guy doesn't know Kirito. He should be the most well known individual now aside from the leaders of powerful guilds. He's not a Beater. He's the Beater.

edit: I felt sorry for the rabbit. :(

shinta|hikari

Sun, 08-26-2012, 07:37 AM

Rabbits are delicious.

I would max out the cooking skill just like Asuna did. Imagine living for years without anything decent to eat. I would rather get killed by a ragout rabbit.

Dark Dragon

Sun, 08-26-2012, 11:36 AM

I'm wondering if that cooking skill really is useless or if there's some underlying mechanism encouraging people to delevop also "useless" skills. Like there being two categories of skills and you can't use all points inside the useful category. Or perhaps cooking can be used as a fast alchemy skill.

Actually if you go back to episode 2.

Asuna was quite cold and distant in a way that is similar to how Kirito is acting now. Kirito giving Asuna some butter to use with the bread clearly surprised her with the taste. That particular event might have something to do with encouraging Asuna to develop cooking.

Kraco

Sun, 08-26-2012, 12:14 PM

Yeah, but to develop cooking and max out cooking are two quite different things. I do agree that I'd also invest some points in cooking even if it didn't give anything else but more tasty stuff. It would do good to your mental health to eat something actually edible in the long run instead of some dull goo. But unless you are planning to open a restaurant, I don't see the point of maxing it out.

Archangel

Sun, 08-26-2012, 01:22 PM

You max it out because you can. It's a secondary skill, something that you train in your days off i assume.

Kraco

Sun, 08-26-2012, 02:33 PM

You max it out because you can. It's a secondary skill, something that you train in your days off i assume.

Hmm... So, you don't actually have finite skill points based on your level? I thought the eavesdropping case way back suggested otherwise.

Archangel

Sun, 08-26-2012, 02:54 PM

I'm just assuming but that's a practical skill, while cooking is a secondary skill.

Edit: Actually, i rewatched the ease dropping incident and i'm convinced the system is more like runescape and less like skyrim.

NeoCybercoin

Sun, 08-26-2012, 03:22 PM

That's what I believe as well. Like Blacksmithing. The more things you make the more you level skill.

Sun, 08-26-2012, 03:36 PM

You can't really blame anybody of the worst deeds with the colour of the diamond indicating what they have and haven't done. I wouldn't be surprised if the shady figure tried to get the dishonoured escort dude to use dirty tricks against Kirito.

The murderer guild in a previous episode was flagged orange despite red being the killer color, so yeah, it's definitely possible that someone could get blamed for a murder they didn't commit.

Anyway this episode was ok. It seems like these short stories are being told out of order, because Kirito isn't using the sword he got from the blacksmith girl and Asuna jabs him with a joke about not associating with other girls. Asuna acts out of character in the scene with the bodyguard, literally cowering behind Kirito and passively acceding to the bodyguard's rough handling until Kirito intervenes. She's his superior, she's stronger than him, and she left her passive shell quite a while ago in the story, there's no reason for her to be acting like this. Him being a man or being taller than her means absolutely nothing in this world.

There's actually two little action scenes that are reasonably well done, the Labyrinth environment is cool looking, and if you're the kind of person who finds Kirito and Asuna's relationship interesting this episode is endearing. Plus it's at least playing at setting up future conflicts with the unknown observer in the crowd.

Kraco

Sun, 08-26-2012, 04:02 PM

Asuna acts out of character in the scene with the bodyguard, literally cowering behind Kirito and passively acceding to the bodyguard's rough handling until Kirito intervenes. She's his superior, she's stronger than him, and she left her passive shell quite a while ago in the story, there's no reason for her to be acting like this. Him being a man or being taller than her means absolutely nothing in this world.

I wish it was because Asuna was trying to coax Kirito to make a move and claim her (like he finally did) and not because she was out of character and acting so stupidly in front of a soldier of a lesser rank. But I reckon the real reason is the latter, unfortunately, even if she has sometimes been quite crafty with her words in Kirito's company.

fireheart

Sun, 08-26-2012, 07:20 PM

She didn't exactly seem pleased over the idea of having a bodyguard so maybe she's just too creeped out by the fact that he stalks her 24/7 even when he's dismissed? And the way he acted kinda added to him coming off as a creepy stalker.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-26-2012, 08:40 PM

The murderer guild in a previous episode was flagged orange despite red being the killer color, so yeah, it's definitely possible that someone could get blamed for a murder they didn't commit.

Your crime status goes away with time.

I just think Asuna was creeped out from being stalked. I'm bigger and stronger than cockroaches and spiders. I still get creeped out by them.

Hitokiri

Sun, 08-26-2012, 10:54 PM

Your crime status goes away with time.

I just think Asuna was creeped out from being stalked. I'm bigger and stronger than cockroaches and spiders. I still get creeped out by them.

Good reminder. It looks like Kirito confirmed that in episode 4 when he confronted Rosalia on the bridge.

I'm glad they got back to Vol 1. Finally some good action and Gleam Eyes looks impressive.

The head of the PK guild with his blue scar/tattoo makes another appearance. We might see more shenanigans with his guild soon. If it's like some of the motards I've seen in MMOs then an ambush at the most inopportune time is in order.

Buffalobiian

Sun, 08-26-2012, 11:15 PM

Good reminder. It looks like Kirito confirmed that in episode 4 when he confronted Rosalia on the bridge.

I'm glad they got back to Vol 1. Finally some good action and Gleam Eyes looks impressive.

The head of the PK guild with his blue scar/tattoo makes another appearance. We might see more shenanigans with his guild soon. If it's like some of the motards I've seen in MMOs then an ambush at the most inopportune time is in order.

Ah, so that's who he was. I didn't recognise the tattoo (though the way it was shown means it had to be significant somehow), and could only guess from the hood. I remember we were talking last time in this thread about the PK guild being weak and shuffling away when stronger members came. If this guy's comfortable sitting around on the top(?) floor, they can't be that weak. Perhaps they don't do well when placed in direct combat, like a classical assassin.

Mon, 08-27-2012, 02:12 PM

Your crime status goes away with time.

I know. That's what I was saying.

Yukimura

Mon, 08-27-2012, 03:30 PM

It's nice to see an episode that feels like part of a larger continuity finally but it's not so nice to see people acting out of character and yet more little details that seemingly don't fit together but make the plot move. What bugged me this time was the notion that a) Asuna could know that she'd maxed out the cooking skill, which I took to mean she had achieved the highest possible level of cooking skill in the game and b) that she's managed to max out any skill only 3/4 through the game content. For a) it's possible the game tells you how far you can possibly go in a skill which is fine but isn't the impression I got about how skills worked. However the implications of b) are what I found really foreboding.

If they're only on floor 74 or whatever and two years in and she's completely maxed out a skill, especially one that she probably only uses a few times a day at most since she learned that butter tastes good in game what does that say about the level at which all skills cap compared to the maximum levels the content has. She wasn't likely the first to max cooking as there are likely non combatant chefs who cook all day every day who would have leveled the skill much faster. If she has indeed maxed it out, then that implies the front line fighters who must use their weapon skills dozens or hundreds of times per day should be nearing a similar limit. How much longer will it be before the people at the front lines can't get any better due to the restrictions of the game and what are they going to do if the creatures continue to get more powerful and hard to beat as they continue to climb. At the very least partying will become more and more of a requirement for anyone to move ahead in game. But if there are 25 more levels of difficulty and people are starting to run out of room to grow that's a rather large gap to cover.

On the other hand, given the history of the show I'm rather more willing to believe it was a line thrown in b/c it sounded good and gave Asuna an excuse to be involved with the rabbit meat and have a dayto with Kirito and that the author didn't really think about the implications of Asuna to have hit a level cap on any skill at this point in the game. It also occured to me that she could have meant she had achieved the highest possible cooking skill for her current level which I could attribute to a translation error/awkwardness but with all the other examples of shaky continuity I am more inclined to believe it was an accurate translation of a poorly thought out line in the source material.

I have little to add about Asuna's behavior with respect to her 'guard' beyond that it was rather informative about the true nature of her character. I found it telling that she eventually stood up to him and used the authority she had all along to dismiss him but initially acted like a scared little girl in his presence, especially once I thought about what happend before her personality shift. Kirito, who Asuna feels comfortable around, dueled her guard him and demonstrated in no uncertain terms that he was superior him, only then did Asuna have the confidence in her authority over her guard to actually use it. This came off to me as a glaring sign that for all her skill and levels and tsuntsun personality Asuna is cut from the the same highly refined moeblob cloth as any other 'strong' anime girl. No matter how tough she is she still needs someone to protect her from the big scary world for her to actually shine, which of course means she can never shine brighter than the patron who allows her to come out of her shell. I hope we get a chance to see her guild master as his character and the relationship she has with him should be telling as to whether I'm right or not but it already looks like she'll be teaming up with Kirito who provides her with exactly what she needs to continue keeping up the facade that she's a strong, confident, independent woman, a man to depend on.

Kraco

Mon, 08-27-2012, 04:44 PM

Assuming one can't max out fighting skills by using the worst rusty sword against some pesky critter from the lower levels, repeated infinitely, it would make sense one can't max out a cooking skill by only making simple food over and over. In that sense it would have been a better detail if Asuna had rather almost maxed it out and gained one level immediately by making the whatever rabbit stew. That is, maxing it out would need a bunch of extremely rare ingredients, and maxing out fighting skills would require fighting monsters from the high levels towards the top. But yeah, considering what Y has said about the origins of this story, I believe the author doesn't really bother to hone every detail, far from it.

fireheart

Mon, 08-27-2012, 06:52 PM

What bugged me this time was the notion that a) Asuna could know that she'd maxed out the cooking skill, which I took to mean she had achieved the highest possible level of cooking skill in the game and b) that she's managed to max out any skill only 3/4 through the game content. For a) it's possible the game tells you how far you can possibly go in a skill which is fine but isn't the impression I got about how skills worked. However the implications of b) are what I found really foreboding.

If they're only on floor 74 or whatever and two years in and she's completely maxed out a skill, especially one that she probably only uses a few times a day at most since she learned that butter tastes good in game what does that say about the level at which all skills cap compared to the maximum levels the content has.

I don't know, maybe it's just me but I've played plenty of games where I learned all the skills I could before I got to the end game part of it. For example I have a level 30 (max 70) character in an MMO that have high enough sword equipment level to equip max level swords, my character level is far from able to equip and use it but not my equipment level. Hitting max level in a particular skill/equipment doesn't equal no more room to grow just that it's about using the skills you've learned and getting better gear, if the skill damage is % damage based on your attack then every attack skill grows with your equipment. Then again we don't know enough about the system to really know.
Might be remembering wrong but most MMO you usually get a lot of experience when crafting, more than your character level. You also need to consider that when cooking it could involve several steps each going to leveling up the skill. And there's nothing saying she only does it a few times a day, since they're just virtual then they should be able to eat as much as they want so maybe she cooks an enormous amount of food since she can just keep eating.