Hyouka

[TheBladeChild]

1262

Oreki Hotaro is a high school boy, who always acts passively. One day, he enters "Koten Bu (Classic Literature Club)" as recommended by his elder sister.

There he meets Chitanda Eru, Fukube Satoshi, and Ibara Mayaka. Chitanda is a calm beautiful girl but she turns into an embodiment of curiosity once she says, "I'm interested in it (Watashi, Kininarimasu)". Fukube is a smiling boy with a fantastic memory, he never deduces anything on his own. Ibara is a short girl and is strict with others and herself. She loves Fukube, but he always dodges her approaches.

They begin to investigate a case that occurred 33 years ago. Hints of the mystery are buried in an old collection of works of the former members of Koten Club. The collection is titled "Hyouka".

-My Anime List

Episode 1

Mazui:http://mazuisubs.com/torrents/Mazui_Hyouka_-_01_8529356F.mkv.torrent

[animus]

The main character's philosophy was frighteningly similar to mine during high school, without all of Houtarou's deductive prowess. I was just about as lazy as he was.

The first episode does have me intrigued with it's execution and high production values.

[Kraco]

As expected of KyoAni, this show is worth watching for the production values alone (which makes me all the more sad KyoAni refused to animate Little Busters). I also found it funny they cast Clannad's Tomoya and Sunohara's VAs for the main roles in this show as well. The dudes aren't even that much different from Clannad, aside from Fukube obviously being a capable fellow, as opposed to the ever-loser Sunohara. What comes to the story, though... Hard to say if it floats at all.

The MAL description in the OP contains some errors. Based on the novel description on Manga-Updates, I don't think it's even a difference derived from there. It must be written by somebody who knew nothing of the story... Or, rather, knew something of it, including spoilers, but didn't have the wits to write a correct or proper description.

[Kraco]

Episode 2 - Mazui (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=309816)
Episode 1v2 - Mazui (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=309219) (with a different encoding and adjusted wording).



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I'm getting used to this and even starting to find this a pleasurable watch for reasons other than the jolly good graphics. The fact Hotaro appearing an energy saver isn't only due to being lazy is a good detail in my opinion. Hard to say yet why it is so, but he seems to be setting himself apart from the way average teenagers act. Of course everybody think they are unique, so I hope there's something rather more fundamental behind that revelation of his in the library. While he's not as rude as manhwa male protagonists, I also find it enjoyable he's not bowing to anybody (except his sister). At least not so far. Yet another pleasant aspect of his personality is that he's not all about solving mysteries but rather giving Chitanda any answer that will satisfy her, truth or not, and thus will get rid of the bother. That's some funny dynamics between them.

After these two eps I'm not anymore wondering at all why KyoAni chose to animate this story. It seems to be right down their alley.

[Buffalobiian]

Chitanda trips me up. Her design is like Yui from K-ON! after her hair-cut plus some Mio attributes to make her both ditz AND top-girl. The dragging-around-solving-mysteries part reminds me of Haruhi. The "friend" even enjoys satisfying Chitanda's desires at the main char's expense.

I guess I'll keep watching. It's interesting.. but takes so much effort.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 03 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=312143)
[ASL]_ChouCho_-_Hyouka_OP_-_Yasashisa_no_Riyuu_[FLAC]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=312062)
[ASL]_ChouCho_-_Hyouka_OP_-_Yasashisa_no_Riyuu_[MP3]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=312061)

[Kraco]

For some reason I was expecting the newspaper dude to be hiding something worse than tobacco... But I guess that's bad enough already considering it's a school and he's doing it in a club room. And this isn't a punk show.

In the end Hotaro couldn't say no to Chii-chan's sad face, as expected.

[Buffalobiian]

For some reason I was expecting the newspaper dude to be hiding something worse than tobacco... But I guess that's bad enough already considering it's a school and he's doing it in a club room. And this isn't a punk show.

At first when they noticed it was perfume, I was he was having an orgy in there or something. Cuz that's the first thing you think of when someone mentions perfume right?...

Chitanda's cute, but her reaction right at the end "was she going to faint/outburst?" when they found out that the first anthology was missing made me cringe a little. Just that moment, it appeared as if she was just a bit too childish.

I'm sure that will all reset by next week though.

[Kraco]

Chitanda's cute, but her reaction right at the end "was she going to faint/outburst?" when they found out that the first anthology was missing made me cringe a little. Just that moment, it appeared as if she was just a bit too childish.


This is a moe show for KyoAni to animate while there's no K-ON to make. Better keep that in mind. Not that it would really be possible to forget since it looks next to identical to K-ON anyway...

[MFauli]

God, I want to slap her in the face and say "BITCH, SHUT UP".

Animation quality is nice, but it kinda feels like a poor man´s Haruhi. And damn, the annoying girl reminds me of another anime´s girl, I just cannot remember the name. Such annoying overly energetic behavior - really, you couldn´t make an anime that´s more typical "anime-y".

[Buffalobiian]

the annoying girl reminds me of another anime´s girl, I just cannot remember the name.

Her hair and such actually reminds me most closely of Azuki Miho from Bakuman.

Her actions? Too many to guess at..

[MFauli]

Her actions? Too many to guess at..

Haha, true. Though I´m not thinking of Bakuman. Argh, it sucks when you remember something but not the name. This attitude of hers, this outworldish, super-energetic, never-embarrassed behavior, and how she acts towards a boy she just met. Hm ... am I thinking of Clannad? Not sure.

[Buffalobiian]

Clannad?

As in a smarter version of Fuuko?

Yeah, that could work.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 04 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=314079)

[Kraco]

Episode 4 - Mazui (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=314079)




- - - - -

For the first time during the show I actully felt sorry for Chitanda. Hotaro was of course being himself coming up with a perfectly plausible explanation by combining various facts and building a theory that seemingly covered everything they brought onto the table - and, most importantly, didn't take more than one toilet break to formulate. However, like the end showed, it still failed to answer the ultimate question which prompted Chitanda to start the whole process. From the audience's point of view that's the same thing as feeling "that's it?" after so much buildup. I wonder if Hotaro himself is so energy saving he didn't bother to suspect this might not necessarily cut it for long.

[Buffalobiian]

For the first time during the show I actully felt sorry for Chitanda. Hotaro was of course being himself coming up with a perfectly plausible explanation by combining various facts and building a theory that seemingly covered everything they brought onto the table - and, most importantly, didn't take more than one toilet break to formulate. However, like the end showed, it still failed to answer the ultimate question which prompted Chitanda to start the whole process. From the audience's point of view that's the same thing as feeling "that's it?" after so much buildup. I wonder if Hotaro himself is so energy saving he didn't bother to suspect this might not necessarily cut it for long.

The preview seems to suggest that, the way Houtaro stops midtrack with a displeased look as he fully realises his disservice to Chitanda's efforts. I'm sure he suspected that this wasn't all there was to do with the incident, but based on his late start and limited information, this was the best conclusion he could come up with. Brainpower can only do so much when you use it too late.

edit: I've found the animation gimmicks to backfire on me a little. They're nice and interesting, and I'd gather they'd be rather well received by native speakers since watching someone's face yap an explanation to you can be rather boring (unless it's Chitanda). When I'm a subtitle-reader though, my concentration is torn between watching the whole screen and focussing on the subtitles - often leaving me stranded somewhere in the middle. I often get a rushed feeling that I didn't fully appreciate either one. SHAFT can do that to me at times too.

edit2: Ponytail banzai!

[MFauli]

Ugh, just watched ep 3. If this wasn´t an anime, but a real-life tv show, Chitanda would be criticized for over-acting. I hate characters like her. But Oreki is interesting enough, and I like his best friend, who´s basically a carbon copy of the Durarararar banana´s leader.

[Kraco]

Ugh, just watched ep 3. If this wasn´t an anime, but a real-life tv show, Chitanda would be criticized for over-acting.

I dislike overacting in live action TV shows, which is why most Japanese TV drama looks so bad, but in anime I tend like it, if it's there to emphasize a character's personality or fits the mood and atmosphere of the show.

[gos27]

Can't really say it's 'over-acting' in an anime, just fucking irritating. Oreki is a cool character as well as his friend. Only watched 3 episodes, probably gonna wait until gg release episode 4.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 05 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=315973)


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I wish I was Houtaro. I'd be differential diagnostic god.

[Kraco]

When they said what Hyouka is in English, I thought that "I scream" immediately, but then rejected the idea, it being so lame. I guess I should have believed Houtarou when he said it's lame. But considering behind the name was a high schooler, and even more so back in those times, such lameness is to be accepted if not expected.

In any case that was quite a satisfying conclusion to the arc, explaining perfectly why Chitanda was crying. If she doesn't fall for Houtarou, or already hasn't, I don't know what kind of a guy would catch her attention.

[Buffalobiian]

When they said what Hyouka is in English, I thought that "I scream" immediately, but then rejected the idea, it being so lame. I guess I should have believed Houtarou when he said it's lame. But considering behind the name was a high schooler, and even more so back in those times, such lameness is to be accepted if not expected.

In any case that was quite a satisfying conclusion to the arc, explaining perfectly why Chitanda was crying. If she doesn't fall for Houtarou, or already hasn't, I don't know what kind of a guy would catch her attention.

Houtaro's Japanese accent helped it a lot I think, being unable to pronounce ice cleanly by itself, leading to something similar to "Ai-su-cu-ree-mu". I enjoyed the horrific animation right at the end. It was needed to show just how dreadful it was for Sekitanni Jun.

The satisfying ending actually leaves me rather curious (!) at what's left in store for us.

It greatly reminds me of the 2009 run of Haruhi where the major problem was resolved by 6 episodes or so.

[KrayZ33]

I enjoyed how this arc ended, the story was really cool and interesting.

I'm looking forward for more, the MC is nice too.

[animus]

I thought that this whole mystery of the uncle was gonna span the whole series or something. Maybe solving his disappearance will be another arc?

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 06 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=317957)

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http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4954/mazuihyouka06a426aae4mk.jpg


HAHAHAHA. The mystery was pretty meh, but all the side bits made up for it.

[Kraco]

The mystery was pretty meh...

No way! No other anime could spend an entire episode to conclude that hand-written a and d can look remotely similar.

But yeah, I'm greatly enjoying Houtaro's growing fear every time a mystery or incident of any kind starts to gain Chitanda's attention. Now it was even incarnated as those little Chii-chibis of curiosity. I can't imagine Houtaro minds how close to him Chitanda gets so casually, though. She must be just as pure as Mayaka said. So free of lust that she doesn't realise she's so close.

[Buffalobiian]

[ASL]_Various_Artists_-_Hyouka_ED_-_Madoromi_no_Yakusoku_[MP3]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=319007)
[ASL]_Various_Artists_-_Hyouka_ED_-_Madoromi_no_Yakusoku_[FLAC]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=319006)

[ASL]_ChouCho_-_Hyouka_OP_-_Yasashisa_no_Riyuu_[MP3]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=312061)
[ASL]_ChouCho_-_Hyouka_OP_-_Yasashisa_no_Riyuu_[FLAC]_[w_Scans].rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=312062)

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 07 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=320004)

[Kraco]

Houtaro doesn't need to listen to late night ghost stories; he experiences horror beyond imagination every time Chitanda exclaims she's curious.

This episode probably presented as much fanservice as KyoAni is capable of - and more than half of it was dudes... But at least the mystery was more interesting than the letter error last time. It was also nice to watch Houtaro getting embarrassed with Chitanda getting so close. But I wonder if Chitanda realises that at all.

[Buffalobiian]

All Houtaro needed was a clingy female to add some roses to his previous grey life. It's funny how his deducing powers work against him by setting him off with just the sound of someone bathing next door. Or how he can't even look at Chitanda anymore when she gets curious.

They mentioned that Satoshi barely scraped his tests last time. I don't see how a database is capable of doing that..., if anything it should be Houtaro since he can't be bothered studying and has to get by with whatever he can deduce from the exam paper's wording.

[Kraco]

They mentioned that Satoshi barely scraped his tests last time. I don't see how a database is capable of doing that..., if anything it should be Houtaro since he can't be bothered studying and has to get by with whatever he can deduce from the exam paper's wording.

That's actually a bit inaccurate. Maybe they are calling Houtaro low-energy instead of lazy for the exact reason he seeks intelligently the route of less trouble rather than just lazing around not caring for the tomorrow. Since you absolutely need to pass the exams, it makes perfect sense he studies enough to ensure he has zilch chance of failing - because failing would mean much more extra work and wasted time. Satoshi, however, has so much going on, including multiple clubs, that it'd be no wonder if he has little time for formal studies. Maybe he's a database - but a database of what is the real question.

[Buffalobiian]

That's actually a bit inaccurate. Maybe they are calling Houtaro low-energy instead of lazy for the exact reason he seeks intelligently the route of less trouble rather than just lazing around not caring for the tomorrow. Since you absolutely need to pass the exams, it makes perfect sense he studies enough to ensure he has zilch chance of failing - because failing would mean much more extra work and wasted time. Satoshi, however, has so much going on, including multiple clubs, that it'd be no wonder if he has little time for formal studies. Maybe he's a database - but a database of what is the real question.

Right.

Houtaro did say he's a database of useless information as well on multiple occasions. Maybe that's what he's referring to.

[KrayZ33]

I wanted them to buy a yukata for her :(

oh man, she was so scared and sad when it got soaked
she was like "they are going to yell at me", adorable

[Kraco]

I wanted them to buy a yukata for her :(

oh man, she was so scared and sad when it got soaked
she was like "they are going to yell at me", adorable

Who should have bought one for her? Since it didn't seem like a horrible family, letting a relative with her friends stay for free and all, I imagine there must be a legit reason why only the older sister had a new yukata like that. Maybe she had even saved her own money to afford it. Kayo took it without a permission, so she deserved a little scare.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 08 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=322002)



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lol, so since murder cases are outside the responsibilities of students, we'll just make them solve a movie script instead, same thing!

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 09 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=323861)

[Kraco]

Chitanda getting drunk from eating liqueur chocolates was the funniest part of this episode. Otherwise it wasn't so brilliant. I didn't expect this arc to last more than two episodes, and I'm sorry it did because it's not so interesting.

[Buffalobiian]

Chitanda getting drunk from eating liqueur chocolates was the funniest part of this episode. Otherwise it wasn't so brilliant. I didn't expect this arc to last more than two episodes, and I'm sorry it did because it's not so interesting.

I agree on all accounts. The assistant director was just stupid. The props dude was the best of the bunch (as much as I hate to admit), while the last girl just completely didn't care for all the clues at all.

[KrayZ33]

I liked it.

but you are right, I thought they'd end it with this episode and I was really looking forward to it.

on a side note, I enjoy the animation-quality alot. Amazingly detailed.
this show is the one I want to see the most each week, especially since Fate/Zero will end soon

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 10 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=325659)

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Hoh..... Oreki being wrong.. I like it. That felt way too easy. I had forgotten about the rope, but I do remember that Oreki didn't address the fact that Hongou only asked for a tiny jar of blood, but Haba needed to prepare an entire bottle for the amputation scene.

If Hongou really did have everything nailed down (as they're assuming), perhaps the scene wasn't acted out correctly. Someone probably misread/misinterpreted a cut arm as a severed arm.

However, if we then assume that the position and existence of the severed forearm was also in the script, then the remaining possibility is that the forearm did not belong to the guy who is down. The footage does not show the first victim's stump, so he's the culprit using himself as a red herring. This also explains the lack of "fake" blood on the floor.

[KrayZ33]

to be honest, Oreki's attempt to solve this mystery has been really weak imho.


first they mention how on a ...what did they call it... "psychological viewpoint" the culprit won't go somewhere where he might be seen (window entrance rejected) and now he is all like "the viewer won't care, the twist is so amazing"


not to mention that he missed out on the rope completely even though they discussed it with one of the other "detectives" just before he started working on the case.
and he is still missing a few key-points imho, what about Houngo(?)'s notebook and its symbols, I believe they have to mean something (especially since it pretty much proves that she read most of the books)... but it didn't feel right from the beginning

that "slow speaking" girl is especially fishy imho...
she's the one who found the map, she's the one who knows where the keys are and giving suggestiongs about how the master key should be kept safe (maybe to imply that everyone could have grabbed it and killed him?)
and Houngo wished her "luck"

and whats the motive?

[Kraco]

This is consistent with Oreki's past performance. During the titular case he also didn't predict everything, although back then he suspected it himself. I think this was also psychologically sound, including forgetting the rope. He isn't trained to solve criminal cases (or rather, mysteries), which was also evident in the fact he processed it all only inside his head, instead of using the laptop or a physical board or whatever to make sure he's not missing anything. Maybe the critical factor here is that he was praised too much and got careless. He's talented enough to process information and think out of the box, but he will still fall victim to human errors.

But then again, let's not forget this is a movie and not a real case. Ultimately it's the original author's fault to not finish it. If another person does, it will become that other person's story instead, and there's nothing wrong about it anymore at that point, details included or forgotten. You just have to accept that. The bad acting certainly didn't help and only supported Oreki's version. To be cynical, Ibara made the mistake of not allowing Oreki is get past this whole thing.

[KrayZ33]

on a side note, maybe I just played into the author's (Hyouka) hand..

now that I think about it, everyone had extremely high expectations for Oreki (including me)... even though he hasn't done anything "that" great so far, he even says so himself, everytime someone mentioned it.
And now, just as he is about to believe what everyone told him, it seems like he is about to fail.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 11 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=327776)


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Wow. That's Empress for you. She actually seems a lot like me if I was ever put in a position like that.

Those messages finally make sense now too (the ones at the beginning of episode 08 and the ones at the end of this one). They were confusing largely because I didn't realise that the person typing was Irisu, and also that the person she talked to will change over at times.

[animus]

I guess Irisu was typing to Hongou and Oreki's sister right?

Anyways, did we establish anything about the Empress? Did she really just reject her script and didn't want to hurt her feelings? I guess she did when she typed in response "I was in a position to not let the movie fail."

[KrayZ33]

I felt really sorry for Oreki, everyone had such high hopes for him to solve the mystery and he couldn't match their expectations at first.

They encouraged him to help and for the first time he began thinking about it seriously and really tried to help and it ended in a (for him and his friends that is) wrong way.
then after realizing that he was just being used under a false pretext, he must have felt even worse

[Kraco]

Irisu was quite a manipulator. He praised Oreki sufficiently so that he would completely fail to doubt her or the setting she had created. But then again, she even looks like a completely cold and merciless person and didn't bat an eyelash when Oreki accused her of only thinking of the end result and nothing else, so I doubt she gives a shit about how this might have affected Oreki. She showed some concern when chatting with his sister, but I reckon that was faked as well and only due to the fact she respects her personally and would desire respect in return. A valuable lesson for Oreki, in any case. When solving future mysteries, he will also count in factors like this, no matter how much it hurt this time.

[Buffalobiian]

I guess Irisu was typing to Hongou and Oreki's sister right?

Anyways, did we establish anything about the Empress? Did she really just reject her script and didn't want to hurt her feelings? I guess she did when she typed in response "I was in a position to not let the movie fail."


In episode eight, Irisu texted to Hongou, chatted with a Senpai (Oreki's sister? Last we heard she was in India? Or Ukraine?), then chatted with Chitanda "L".

This episode as you sa, she talked with Hongou, then Oreki's sister.

While I do feel sorry for Oreki this time (it'll make it quite hard for him to believe he can really make a difference again), I sympathise with the Empress more after the final scene. Like a true empress, she has to keep her little empire from failing - and if it requires her to step on people, so be it. People expect her to do her job, but she gets bad press for it.

[Kraco]

While I do feel sorry for Oreki this time (it'll make it quite hard for him to believe he can really make a difference again), I sympathise with the Empress more after the final scene. Like a true empress, she has to keep her little empire from failing - and if it requires her to step on people, so be it. People expect her to do her job, but she gets bad press for it.

Is that what you tell yourself (since you reckoned you'd be like her in a similar position)? This all was more due to her personality than the needs of the job. Why exactly did she calculate Oreki would create a better plot this way rather than after having sufficiently details not to feel betrayed and used after it all? Besides, this way is no way to use people in an organization, unless it really is an empire and you are a despot. You figure Oreki would ever want to deal with her again (he even seems to lazy for a revenge)? She knew well she's using him as a disposable tool. It was all the worse with the manipulation, even if it was necessary to get the energy saver moving at all.

Still, that seems to be her personality, just like Oreki's is energy saving plus problem solving and Chitanda's is curiosity.

[shinta|hikari]

I got really pissed with how his friends behaved. They selfishly held expectations, then selfishly reacted in such a way that they knew would hurt Oreki. Oreki never wanted to be considered special (even if he is), but they made him out to be, then when their expectations are not met, they all act as if he let them down.

While I am not a fan of the manipulative bitch, I am more disgusted at the other characters right now. I particularly disliked how they tried to be sensitive and approached him one by one with disappointment written all over their face (a testament to the amazing art in this show). One can argue that it is because they are friends that they are honest with him, but honesty can be expressed much better. They don't have to speak and look like they are blaming and patronizing him for making a mistake.

The "If you really think so, then I can tolerate it" parts of the dialog made me want to punch each of them in the face. The only thing that hurts more than criticism is pity.

[Kraco]

Nah, your view is far too one-sided. Orehi himself readily rejected all the theories by the filming crew. Then he went forward, without consulting the other Classics club members overly much (especially afterwards, before presenting it to the filming crew), with finishing the script. It got made into the film before the others had a chance to say anything about it. I think they were indeed justified in being disappointed with it; they had been under the impression Oreki tried to complete Hongou's text, but it was immediately clear to them he didn't but wrote his own. It's true they had unreasonably high expectations, but Oreki equally got unreasonably far ahead of himself after the praise by Irisu.

[Buffalobiian]

Is that what you tell yourself (since you reckoned you'd be like her in a similar position)? This all was more due to her personality than the needs of the job. Why exactly did she calculate Oreki would create a better plot this way rather than after having sufficiently details not to feel betrayed and used after it all? Besides, this way is no way to use people in an organization, unless it really is an empire and you are a despot. You figure Oreki would ever want to deal with her again (he even seems to lazy for a revenge)? She knew well she's using him as a disposable tool. It was all the worse with the manipulation, even if it was necessary to get the energy saver moving at all.

Still, that seems to be her personality, just like Oreki's is energy saving plus problem solving and Chitanda's is curiosity.

It wouldn't work to tell Oreki everything because the whole thing about Hongou being sick was a lie anyway. He needed to keep the story consistent and make it so the Film Club was in a bind, instead of hiring a writer because that would be viewed as being incompetent.

As for whether I'd act like her, it depends on how important the project is (how much more I value the result vs people having fun and a good relationship), how well I get along with the rest of the group (value of said relationship) and how desparate I am for the results (affects which methods and how much time I have to try various methods in order to achieve the result I need).

A club to me is pretty trivial, but if I was managing a company with "real" consequences, my approach could very well be different, and similar to what she pulled here.

[Kraco]

A club to me is pretty trivial, but if I was managing a company with "real" consequences, my approach could very well be different, and similar to what she pulled here.

In a company people are paid for their work (or rather, the results), so technically they only need to know the essentials. That's natural, even if in practice they oft get more details one way or another. So, she wouldn't need to "pull" anything in a company (or in fact any place where hired or contracted people work for money). So, contrary to that, what makes this so nasty is that Oreki worked for no compensation under a guileful pretext carefully crafted by Irisu. In the end all he got were those disappointed looks from his peers, like Shinta mentioned, and his own personal disappoinment from failing the job (as far as he's concerned, even if the film was a success). The fact he was fooled by Irisu was additional salt to the wounds. It doesn't make you feel much of a detective if the person praising you in fact was deceiving you successfully.

Aside from that, you said nothing that would make me believe Oreki wouldn't have been able to come up with a story even if he had known more. Nobody but Oreki would have needed to know she was hiring a writer.

[Buffalobiian]

Nobody but Oreki would have needed to know she was hiring a writer.

Ah, but words can spread.

To give an example, it's one thing to hire a shadow-writer to write your book for you. It's another to find someone to help you deduce what the original writer wanted before they "fell sick" or "died" etc. In on case you are asking someone to invent something for you because of your inability to do your job yourself, while in the second case you've found someone to help rediscover something that your writer had left you - and her leaving was an unfortunate incident that was outside if your control.

While everyone (at least in the two clubs) know Oreki helped out the Film Club and was cool with it, it's different to have a film by the club with a script "co-written by" Oreki the outsider.

If we compared this one again to the company thing, Oreki would be an outsider with no real attachment to the company in trouble. "help me figure out what my colleague was thinking" vs "help me finish this job".

[Kraco]

Ah, but words can spread.

That's an invalid argument. She used Oreki specifically because she deemed he has the wits to come up with a theory that would suit the film's needs, from the fabricated setting (the corpse that shouldn't have been there). So, the risk of Oreki finding out the truth was given and high - otherwise he wouldn't have had what it takes anyway. You'd think betrayed Oreki would be more likely to have a loose tongue.

It's true Irisu would have needed to choose her words carefully in order to avoid giving Oreki the ultimate hint that the corpse never was in Hongou's script. But even if she had lied a little to make sure he starts from the corpse and not before it, she could have told him the truth immediately afterwards, instead of letting him discover it the most hurting way possible.

Considering it was nothing but a club film, the price paid feels a bit too high, both for Oreki and Irisu herself.

[Buffalobiian]

So, the risk of Oreki finding out the truth was given and high - otherwise he wouldn't have had what it takes anyway.

I don't think that's the case, as highlighted by the fact that multiple people had to tell Oreki that the theory was wrong before he knew it. Irisu worded herself in such a way that Oreki got caught up in it.

Betrayed Oreki won't necessarily have any looser tongue than one who knew he was a scriptwriter from the start, since everything is settled now (filming and stuff), whereas a scriptwriter Oreki could begin to feel "used" as he writes the script - and may even give up half way leading to a stalled production.

Empress wanted the film done - and so managed to motivate Oreki by making him feel special and needed, rather than just a gun for hire (which could backfire). Then there's the other side of the story where she decided not to hurt her feelings and made up the whole lie about being sick.

At the end of the day though, the difference comes down to saying "I need help, only you can do this" vs "I have an assignment, can you do it for me?"

As for the price, I always had the impressions that clubs were a big thing in Japan - all the more if you were in a leadership position.

[Kraco]

I don't think that's the case, as highlighted by the fact that multiple people had to tell Oreki that the theory was wrong before he knew it. Irisu worded herself in such a way that Oreki got caught up in it.

Traditional murder mysteries and solving them are, in the end, people oriented actions. It's not like Irisu didn't know Oreki himself is surrounded by people who might help him.

But then again, perhaps I'm giving Irisu far too much credit. This could have been, realistically, the best way she could think of so it's useless to blame her for not doing things differently. If she had been able of more, it's likely she could have finished the script by herself as well. This was her limit, and people paid the price, not excluding herself. Next time she wouldn't make the same mistakes, just like Oreki wouldn't. A lesson for both of them.

[shinta|hikari]

@Kraco - I am not saying Oreki is blameless, but he did nothing that deserves that kind of treatment from his friends. Like you said, his friends didn't do much, so what gives them the right to be disappointed? They can disagree with Oreki and point out his errors, but being disappointed because they selfishly expected more from him is unfair. Like I said, I was particularly ticked off by their patronizing behavior. Had they criticized him in a different manner, I would not be irritated at all.

[Kraco]

At least officially they went to help the Film club as the Classics club, no as Oreki plus his expendable henchmen. Together they also analyzed the film and rejected the crew's theories. However, after that Oreki got individually contacted by Irisu, he alone wrote the ending to the story and it was filmed before the rest got their chance to voice their opinions. I know in a similar position I'd be somewhat pissed off I was present when the Film club's theories were rejected yet got no say in Oreki's theory - which the rest could have rejected as well just like we saw them doing afterwards. If you talk about their patronizing behavior, then Oreki's was arrogant.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm fine with Oreki being arrogant.

[fireheart]

I'm mostly with Shinta on this one. Though it's kinda unclear what happened in between seeing as both Satoshi and Ibara knew he was working on it after they rejected all those theories. I can't really see Oreki not telling them his conclusion if they asked about it then again I can't really imagine them not asking what his conclusion was either unless they didn't want to call him just for that.

In short my problem with their attitude can be summed up in:
- Solve this for us Oreki, we don't care that you're not interested :D
- You solved it, let's see... the ending was interesting and surprising. But you're wrong that's not the real ending :mad:
It just doesn't feel warranted to me.

While I'm at it another reason I didn't like their attitude when they told him the flaws in his theory is simply, they haven't ever shown to care about what Oreki wants nor his opinion despite all the things they force him to take on.

But I did love the scene with Oreki and Chitanda at the end because it made it seem like things were somewhat strained between the two and it looked like Chitanda understood that she's a big part of the reason since she forces these issues on him. I guess it's also interesting how she didn't want Hongou to end up in the same position as her uncle being unable to scream yet she inadvertently got Oreki into a similar position instead. Though that's just how I viewed that scene, it made me feel quite sorry for him. I'm going to be disappointed if everything goes on like normal considering how much they tore him down.

As for the Empress I'd say some fault lies with Oreki, he was after all informed of Irisu's ability to turn the people around her into her pawns and that's why she got the nickname Empress. Had he remembered it then there probably would have been less of a chance for her to trick him. But really the biggest reason for not liking her would be the line at the end that the reason she did all of it was because she found the story to be boring. So it seems she did it for a personal reason and nothing else. Oreki got torn apart just for that, because she thought the story was boring.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, a boring film is a shitty film, and if we say she has an eye for that sort of stuff since she's head of the club, then it could be viewed as a fair call. She saw a boring film as one that would fail, and the votes showed that having no deaths wasn't a popular idea either.

[shinta|hikari]

That does not make it okay to screw other people.

[Kraco]

In short my problem with their attitude can be summed up in:
- Solve this for us Oreki, we don't care that you're not interested :D
- You solved it, let's see... the ending was interesting and surprising. But you're wrong that's not the real ending :mad:
It just doesn't feel warranted to me.

It's a matter of perspective. Their original goal was to figure out what the ending was supposed to be like from Hongou's pen. Somewhere along the line Oreki practically forgot that and wrote his own ending. He pretty much admitted that himself after he was reminded of all the facts he had either forgotten or hadn't thought of at all. There's no doubt the film benefitted from this, because with the miserable wooden acting a narrative device was far more likely to succeed than anything depending on the actors. That the rest were less involved only supported their dim view of the result: unlike Oreki, they weren't a part of film making but solving the Hongou mystery. So, after seeing the movie, they realised nothing was solved.

Oreki only cared about energy saving, so trying to understand his wants and needs is useless (since only leaving him alone and in peace would theoretically satisfy that). It's a service to him to sometimes kick him around to make him do something with his talents.

[shinta|hikari]

Another thing that bugs me about how it all unfolded is the fact that Oreki is technically a victim, yet none of the others who were disappointed in him knew that. Had he not been manipulated and given wrong information, he would have solved it. That means that the current evaluation of his friends, which seems to have degraded due to this incident, is inaccurate.

While his friends knew that he was easily fooled by women, to the extent that they gave him the tarot title of "Strength" and regularly commented on how he was affected by the Empress, they did not know how he was used in this case.

One can argue that being easily controlled is a weakness, and it is, but that is not his fault. Victim blaming is just stupid.

Did Oreki only reveal the truth to Chitanda? Did he explain how he was used by the Empress? Does he even give a fuck about redeeming his image to the other two anymore?

The fact that he figured out the Empress' plan and the motives of all those involved is an amazing feat, something that he should be definitely proud of. Sadly, his comment when the Empress told him that her praises were not from the heart indicates that all these events had the opposite effect.

[fireheart]

Well, a boring film is a shitty film, and if we say she has an eye for that sort of stuff since she's head of the club, then it could be viewed as a fair call. She saw a boring film as one that would fail, and the votes showed that having no deaths wasn't a popular idea either.

What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote. This is all Irusu personally objecting to her script for her personal reasons and then screwing Oreki over for said reasons. There's nothing in this but her personal gratification.


It's a matter of perspective. Their original goal was to figure out what the ending was supposed to be like from Hongou's pen. Somewhere along the line Oreki practically forgot that and wrote his own ending. He pretty much admitted that himself after he was reminded of all the facts he had either forgotten or hadn't thought of at all.

Oreki only cared about energy saving, so trying to understand his wants and needs is useless (since only leaving him alone and in peace would theoretically satisfy that). It's a service to him to sometimes kick him around to make him do something with his talents.

I understand the reason why they might be pissed I just don't think it's warranted when they from the very start had no plans to solve the mystery and was going to rely on Oreki to solve it. Satoshi is probably the easiest example as he says himself a database can't draw conclusions thus he relies completely on Oreki to draw conclusions.
The point is simply if you force something on someone else to do and don't like the results then you don't have the right to be all pissed off in their face especially when you weren't going to do it yourself. Hence they could have broken the news to him in a different way.

I still don't like it, if we got shown that they relented every once in awhile I wouldn't have any problem with it but they don't. If he tries to walk away Chitanda more or less tackles him to the ground and the others encourages Chitanda to do it. When he loudly argues that he doesn't want to do it they throw in that it's not like him to waste so much energy arguing something. Friends relent every now and then and accepts that they don't want to, we haven't seen them do this at all. It's about giving and taking and I don't see Oreki getting anything in return for everything he's given. I wouldn't say they're friends rather the rest of the Classics Club looks more like energy thieves.

What they did was not a service but a huge disservice considering how at least Satoshi tried to make him realize that he's got a talent, Oreki is most likely a far better person than me because after that I wouldn't want to solve anything for those kind of people and let them solve it instead if they know so badly.

[Buffalobiian]

What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote.

I'll have to go back to remind myself where they've said it "several times" since I can't remember, but if you remember then that's cool.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

[fireheart]

I'll have to go back to remind myself where they've said it "several times" since I can't remember, but if you remember then that's cool.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

Well I'll admit I got caught up in the moment when I wrote several time but it was mentioned at least once, I think they also mentioned that no one blamed her for the unfinished script either which to me kinda goes hand in hand with them accepting whatever script Hongou wrote. Either way I stand by what I wrote, whether it was mentioned once or a dozen times doesn't really change anything.

Anyway also saw the scene after the first screening again where Oreki asks if she intends for them to finish the script to which she straight up lies and says no.

Whether the movie was well received or not doesn't matter, the problem is that she screwed Oreki over despite the fact that it's possible to achieve the same results without screwing him over. The rest was mostly finding more faults with her making what she did worse.



Also in the conversation after the screening she states that the reason she wanted the Classics Club in the first place was because she heard about Hyokka which means the rest of the club should realize that she only wanted Oreki. So everyone was clearly on the same page that without Oreki the whole thing wouldn't proceed shown by how everyone did everything they could to convince him. I think everyone understood that they were only invited in order to get Oreki to participate.

[Buffalobiian]

Well I'll admit I got caught up in the moment when I wrote several time but it was mentioned at least once, I think they also mentioned that no one blamed her for the unfinished script either which to me kinda goes hand in hand with them accepting whatever script Hongou wrote.

The crew didn't blame Hongou for not finishing the script, that is true.

I couldn't figure out what happened with the script initially though. Did Irisu see the script first, thought it was boring, then changed the script which the Film Club members actually saw and enacted? Or did the film club members themselves just decide to change the events themselves?

In any case, even though the film club doesn't blame Hongou for not finishing the script, the partial script that they were happy with was either changed by themselves or Irisu. Neither of those two things indicate that the club overall would have liked Hongou's original script.





Whether the movie was well received or not doesn't matter

Yes it does, because you originally said:



What Shinta said also they've stated several times that no one would really object to whatever Hongou wrote.
This is all Irusu personally objecting to her script for her personal reasons and then screwing Oreki over for said reasons. There's nothing in this but her personal gratification.

A film that the production crew is happy to make doesn't mean the film will be well received. That's what I was getting at.

Irisu intervened because she thought the script was boring, that the resultant film would be boring, and that students at the Culture Festival watching it would also perceive it as boring - thereby making it a failure of a film.


Hence her last line in the chatroom before it ended this episode.

I was going after how "personal" her decision was, not really about how "okay" it is to screw someone over for it. I also explained earlier about how trying to hire Oreki as a script writer wouldn't have necessarily motivated him to work like he did, so the results would not have necessarily been the same if she had treated them all differently.

[fireheart]

Like I said it's mostly the screwing Oreki over and the rest is just finding more faults in her, like adding more oil to the fire.

Frankly I don't think anyone other than Irisu knew that no one was suppose to die in this movie, the rest probably just thought that Kaito died and went with it trying to make it as dramatic as possible. If the script went with "Kaito found collapsed in a locked room, arm cut and blood and the key on the floor." they wouldn't really know how Hongou planned it and did their own take on it and that's how I viewed the changes. So I think the crew just assumed he died because of the vote not because they had any complaints about her script. Also didn't the Classics Club read through the script but didn't find any inconsistency until Oreki realized it never said that Kaito died?

As for Irisus line at the end, given her reaction before that it seemed more like she was trying to justify her actions, seeking recognition that she did the right thing. So to me she still did it for a personal reason, not because she couldn't allow it to fail as that's merely an excuse though it probably have an ounce of truth in it at least. But maybe the light novels shed more light on this whole thing.

[Kraco]

I still don't like it, if we got shown that they relented every once in awhile I wouldn't have any problem with it but they don't. If he tries to walk away Chitanda more or less tackles him to the ground and the others encourages Chitanda to do it. When he loudly argues that he doesn't want to do it they throw in that it's not like him to waste so much energy arguing something. Friends relent every now and then and accepts that they don't want to, we haven't seen them do this at all. It's about giving and taking and I don't see Oreki getting anything in return for everything he's given. I wouldn't say they're friends rather the rest of the Classics Club looks more like energy thieves.

If the situation was half as bad as you suggest, Oreki would have left the club already, whether his sister accepted or not. In reality, however, even the energy saver would get lonely and to some degree he might have even enjoyed the fact the rest were impressed by his problem solving skills. Besides, since nothing indicates he's gay, I'm sure he's not bothered by Chitanda's presence and "curiosity attacks" in particular. Still, up until now it was all fun and games. I hope he won't become too grumpy after this case, although at the same time I hope the next arc won't make them behave as if this incident never happened.

[fireheart]

If the situation was half as bad as you suggest, Oreki would have left the club already, whether his sister accepted or not. In reality, however, even the energy saver would get lonely and to some degree he might have even enjoyed the fact the rest were impressed by his problem solving skills. Besides, since nothing indicates he's gay, I'm sure he's not bothered by Chitanda's presence and "curiosity attacks" in particular. Still, up until now it was all fun and games. I hope he won't become too grumpy after this case, although at the same time I hope the next arc won't make them behave as if this incident never happened.

Again I got caught up in everything but I'd say it goes pretty much that way whenever Chitanda is curious about something and that's pretty much what the show is about so we don't see if they accept his opinion that he doesn't want to do something in other matters. The only time so far she held back was at the end of the episode which was also the part I liked the most.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 11.5 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=330066), 12 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=330060)

[shinta|hikari]

What is the 11.5? A recap?

[Buffalobiian]

It's an OVA that was web-streamed. It's not a recap, but actually fits in between 11 and 12. The BDs will have a better raw. It does contain character development(ish) and Beach Queen Chitanda.

I wasn't really listening to the ED2 song when it played, but the animation was pretty cute.

[shinta|hikari]

So they just completely forgot about the whole Empress incident?

[Buffalobiian]

So they just completely forgot about the whole Empress incident?

No, 11.5 addresses that. I tried not to be specific.

[shinta|hikari]

Something to look forward to, then.

[Kraco]

Yeah, that episode 11.5 should definitely be watched between 11 and 12. I actually think it increased the overall believability a lot that it was such a bikini episode. Oreki was all depressed, and they basically had to solve that in a single episode. I'd say that being able to look at Chitanda in a bikini played a great part in setting his mind right and returning some life into him.

In episide 12 he's pretty much what he was before the whole film arc, so without 11.5 it would really be like they just ignored the whole thing. How he suddenly discerned his own role in the grand marketing scheme was as clear a sign as any that he's back to his old self. And Chitanda never noticed a thing.

Not bad episodes, as far as this show goes.

[KrayZ33]

Haha, great episodes

sure smiled and laughed quite a lot. and Chitanda looked great there.

[animus]

It'd be confusing if you watched 12 without 11.5, with Oreki's sister showing up and everything. I think him and his sister's interaction is quite organic. With her tussling his hair and what not. Kinda odd that they don't show her face at all.

[shinta|hikari]

I just watched episode 11.5, and it just made me hate the other 2 Hyouka members more. Calling Oreki boring and annoying is not the best way to cheer him (or anyone for that matter) up, especially if part of the cause of his depression lies with the people insulting him. If it weren't for Chitanda, things could have ended up worse.

I still want to know if any of the club members actually knew that Oreki was screwed over by the Empress. If I were in their shoes (Oreki's friend), I would get royally pissed at the Empress and get some retribution.

Chitanda scored some major points for me. It was almost like the other characters were used as a foil to make her shine and shrink the distance between her and Oreki.

[Kraco]

Nah, you are just biased. Ibara was hostile toward Oreki from the get-go, so there's no need at all why she would now try to soften her words. I'm more inclined to believe she said anything at all for Chitanda and Fukube's sake and because she feels some sort of rivalry between herself and Oreki and was now getting disappointed in Oreki falling down. Fukube on the other hand is a straight-forward guy who's not holding back much. Both were perfectly in character.

[shinta|hikari]

I am not saying they were not in character. I was saying that I hate their characters. So you are perfectly correct.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't think Oreki spread the word around that he was screwed over by Irisu. After that little talk, he was totally in "I don't know why I even bothered to give a shit" mode.. and talking to others about it would have been a waste of energy.

He did reveal the truth about Hongou to Chitanda, but whether he left the whole "manipulated" part in is another question.

[Kraco]

Who would want to straight-out confess they were successfully manipulated? Especially if they have a reputation of being intelligent (and little else)? Better just leave the others thinking he failed like any mortal man occasionally could rather than tell them he both failed and was a fool. He had his sprouting ego crushed well enough even without telling the rest of the club why exactly.

[shinta|hikari]

Making a mistake is different from being screwed over by someone. You don't normally assume that people are out to manipulate and use you (at least not to the extent the Empress did), so it would have been the perfect excuse for his failure. It is not really his lack of intelligence that got him fooled, but his inherent characteristic to be swayed by women, as explained by his tarot, the Strength.

Knowing Oreki though, he is not prideful or energetic enough to actually make excuses or redeem his reputation.

[Kraco]

Excuses don't make anybody look better, stronger, or wiser. Like the saying goes: There are only bad excuses. I suppose it could be a cultural thing as well and I wouldn't know the Japanese culture well enough to judge, but it's safe to say that deep down excuses only exist for the failed persons themselves. No matter if the audience believes it or not, it won't make the end result any different or better. Oreki doesn't strike me as the kind of superficial or desperate person who would try to explain things to himself by making excuses.

[shinta|hikari]

Excuses can be valid. The term itself sounds bad, but it is there because it is necessary and meaningful.

You know, like how you were late for work because the train was stopped, or how you could not go to work because your wife died. Maybe explanation would be a better term?

In the first place, when someone screws you over like that, excuse or not, you usually talk about it with your friends. Oreki is simply not the type of person who talks of his own accord, which is probably the reason he has not told anyone about the Empress' scheme.

I am not saying making excuses would suit him better. I just feel it is quite unfair that they have a mistaken view of Oreki's true abilities because they are not aware of all that transpired. It would be great if they found out about it some other way.

[Kraco]

Excuses can be valid. The term itself sounds bad, but it is there because it is necessary and meaningful.

You know, like how you were late for work because the train was stopped, or how you could not go to work because your wife died. Maybe explanation would be a better term?

No, excuses are always bad, because they are reasons for failing that are born ultimately from your own mistakes or shortcomings. Reasons and explanations are a different thing, like a wife dying. Train stopping is borderline because technically you'd need to take into account such a thing if you really were worried about getting to work - and in fact if it was a special day like an uber important meeting in the morning, you ought to take an earlier train. However, normally people don't need to do it because statistically they will be at work on time and always taking an earlier train would be waste of time in the long run, and few would enjoy that. But it could still be viewed as an excuse by a nazi boss...


In the first place, when someone screws you over like that, excuse or not, you usually talk about it with your friends. Oreki is simply not the type of person who talks of his own accord, which is probably the reason he has not told anyone about the Empress' scheme.

I am not saying making excuses would suit him better. I just feel it is quite unfair that they have a mistaken view of Oreki's true abilities because they are not aware of all that transpired. It would be great if they found out about it some other way.

I wouldn't have anything against the others finding out on their own. However, I'm satisfied with his lack of initiative to tell it by himself. Precisely because it would be an excuse and wouldn't change anything results wise. Ibara might even dislike him all the more if he said it. Fukube could go either way, but I doubt he would like to hear excuses after all the praise he has given Oreki. It's impossible to guess how Chitanda would react. While you said he's not prideful I actually think he has enough pride to carry his defeat on his own and not be all hollow by trying to shift the blame.

[shinta|hikari]

Explanation it is then. It is pointless to argue about semantics anyway.

Well, Oreki is not eloquent enough to give an explanation smoothly without it sounding pathetic, so you are right that it may be better that he doesn't do it.

I don't think he was defeated at all. He was a victim. Victims don't compete with the offender/perpatrator. Feeling ashamed because someone wronged you is absurd. It would be different if Oreki knew that he was going into a battle of wits from the get go, but he was basically lured into a trap.

[Kraco]

There's no end to detective stories where the real culprit is actually the one who called the cops or who seemed to be helping the cops the most - only in order to lead the investigation from the shadows in a way that suits him/her. Let's not forget that the Classics club was originally called to save the movie by figuring out Hongou's incomplete script. So, to be specific, already at that point a more suspicious man could have thought where the movie abruptly ended wasn't according to the original script. After that the situation only got worse for Oreki. He was guilty of forgetting half of the case by only finishing the script and not honestly figuring out Hongou's intentions. That was his own fault, plain and simple, under manipulation or not.

[shinta|hikari]

You seem to be proposing that Oreki should have suspected that the Empress was lying from the start. Given the circumstances, it is unbelievable to expect that of anyone. This wasn't a crime scene. It was a student club made movie. No one would have their guard up like you suggest.

I am not denying Oreki was careless in that he forgot a lot of things, like the rope. All I am saying is that he was not able to show his true ability due to the Empress' influence, and it would be unfair for him to be judged when people (his fellow club members) are not even aware of that.

[Kraco]

Not necessarily from the start, but when he put down the pen tip to the paper to write the script he should have taken Irisu's words with a grain of salt as well, just like everything else he had heard (like the theories from the other film club members). The other Classics members still have no idea Oreki (possibly) failed due to falling to the Empress' machinations, yet they all realised the result wasn't what Hongou had in mind. So, nobody can say Oreki didn't have enough facts in his hand, had he been able to stay objective.

You are correct about this not being a crime scene and in the end the movie was absolutely more interesting this way than how Hongou would have liked it to be, but these are separate things from Oreki's image as a detective (or at least a puzzle solver) prodigy that he had just started to believe in himself. Besides, I feel there's some discrepancy between how disappointed the others really were and how bad Oreki simply felt himself, regardless of the others. Even if they appeared condescending or whatnot, they didn't even gang up on him or anything of that sort, and immediately afterwards they have been doing their best to either cheer him up or make him forget the whole thing (the pool ep).

[shinta|hikari]

I agree that his fellow club members had no ill intentions when they approached him. It is the way they did it that I dislike. I do understand that they are such people from the start of the story, so this was inevitable.

Now that you mention it, it seems like the other club members don't really care much about his failure. Now I am wondering if this an issue of direction. The scene where they confronted him may be too expressive when it came to facial animation and voice acting, that it made it seem much more serious than it actually was.

Since this is based on a light novel, those factors may exist in the anime only. Maybe they were not as condescending as they seemed, which would fit more with the rest of how the story played out. If you take out the detailed expressions and voice changes (particularly how desperate and pathetic Oreki looked and how his friends looked at him in disappointment), the content of the conversation itself is not that big of a deal.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 13 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=332200)

[Kraco]

Not such an interesting episode. Among the few good scenes the best were Oreki studying Chitanda's photos and the subsequent scene of Chitanda realising he had been looking at them. I hope something will come out of the items stolen here and there. Sounds like something custom-made for Oreki to solve, which might be the truth even literally. Although who did it is another question. The wheel of fortune card stolen first made me think somebody simply wanted to gain some extra luck in an event, but with the other stuff taken, I'm not so sure, unless that somebody wanted extra luck in the go game.

[Buffalobiian]

I grinned stupidly this episode - both at the photoshoot and at the opportunistic manga society president.

Chitanda... damn she's wife-and-mother material. Let's see how her cooking turns out.

[shinta|hikari]

She is probably the type that can easily learn it even if she is not good to at it yet.

[Buffalobiian]

She is probably the type that can easily learn it even if she is not good to at it yet.

I haven't seen enough to be able comment, but I can say that if she has even the slightest talent she would learn diligently since she doesn't like to waste food.

[shinta|hikari]

She seems to be good at most things anyway, and people who are like that are generally decent to great cooks.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 14 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=334399)

[KrayZ33]

moe-oversatisfaction

suprisingly thrilling though

[shinta|hikari]

As I thought, Chitanda is great at cooking. She could have won the whole thing herself if it weren't for the rule that each contestant had to make a dish.

[Kraco]

This cooking contest was almost as good as the regular Iron Chefs (and much more moe, of course). I found it quite amusing how blatantly scripted it was that Oreki kept acquiring useful items without ever lifting his lazy ass off the chair. It was such a minor part of these past eps, despite playing such a big role in the end, that it didn't feel as overly convenient in the big picture as it should have. As funny was that it took him so long to finally intervene, as if shouting out of the window was a big burden.

Chitanda getting devious advice from the master of machiavellianism was a jolly good scene. I hope she puts it to use soon!

[Buffalobiian]

I loved Irisu's reaction when Chitanda said she was good at asking people for stuff.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 15 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=336629)

[shinta|hikari]

C'mon Hyoutarou. You can crush his pride better than that.

[Buffalobiian]

C'mon Hyoutarou. You can crush his pride better than that.

Don't like Fukube?

I think he's a nice guy. Just a bit of jealousy from being with such a high-potential guy all the time.

[shinta|hikari]

I've disliked him since the film incident.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 16 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=338979)

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 17 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=341282)

[Kraco]

As expected of Oreki. That was some impressive detective work from a guy who never lifted his ass off the chair to solve the case. Before confronting the culprit, of course. I wonder if he was really thinking Chitanda would drop the subject just like that. At the very least I want to see the scene of Chitanda being astounded once again by Oreki.

Mayaka's troubles in the manga club were kind of more ambiguous and I still don't fully understand what was going on to make her so depressed every now and then, although this episode and especially her meeting with the senpai explained a big bunch. Nevertheless, I deem she's the kind of a person who makes a big deal out of nothing.

[Buffalobiian]

Mayaka's troubles in the manga club were kind of more ambiguous and I still don't fully understand what was going on to make her so depressed every now and then, although this episode and especially her meeting with the senpai explained a big bunch. Nevertheless, I deem she's the kind of a person who makes a big deal out of nothing.

Well.. someone was ticking her off really badly when they blamed the low sales of their "100 manga reviews" on her and said it was stupid because there's no point in reviewing a manga (because only your own opinion counts, no one else's does.. the quality of a manga is entirely subjective).

It even sounds like bad blood was brewing in the manga society before this trigger happened.

[Kraco]

Oh, right, in the middle of all this I forgot they were blaming her for low sales. I guess she would take that hard, for a reason. Although to be honest I don't see how they wouldn't blame themselves just as much. She's only a junior in the club, after all, and I doubt in any position to decide on her own what they were going to do.

But yeah, I wouldn't have bought "100 manga reviews".

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 18 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=343610)

[KrayZ33]

cute little mystery there, wasn't hard to figure it out but the episode itself was overall...- hmm yeah - relaxing to watch. This show has really a very calm atmosphere if it wants to

I liked it.

[Buffalobiian]

The word Chitanda's looking for "kakkoii.. <3"

That whole sky thing had a hint of Makoto Shinkai-quality added to it for effect.

[Kraco]

I got a feeling Oreki would have actually wanted the latter bicycle scenario to happen. It's kind of strange Chitanda is so forward but doesn't really show any signs of being romantically interested in Oreki, despite obviously wanting to be in his company and respecting him. Maybe she's simply too peculiar a personality for that. Oreki doesn't look like he would have the guts to make the first move. Perhaps the last episode will change that, hopefully.

The mystery in this episode was kind of lame objectively speaking, with no feeling of importance, but the other aspects beside the mystery made the ep enjoyable.

[Marik]

Episode 19: 720p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=345949) | 480p (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=345961)

[Buffalobiian]

Yay to extra friendliness! Oreki being able to refuse some of Chitanda's lesser requests and making her pout. /thumbs-up.

[Kraco]

Oreki being able to refuse some of Chitanda's lesser requests and making her pout. /thumbs-up.

Aye.

Not a bad episode, assuming something really happens between those two before the end. Otherwise this wasn't so exciting (as if any eps of this show were), but it's kind of admirable how they could stick to the single room for (almost) the whole duration.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 20 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=348201)

[Kraco]

Quite a low-key episode. The reverse mystery didn't much help it under those circumstances. I'd have hoped a bit more development between those two, but they certainly don't seem to be in any hurry - up to the point of not wanting to give anyone the impression they are a pair while Chitanda is performing her duties to the family. Although Oreki getting so sucked in during the formal gift giving scene that he accidentally spoke in Chitanda's place was quite funny.

All in all there wasn't much in this episode aside from seeing Chitanda and Mayaka in different clothes.

[Buffalobiian]

I thought it was refreshing to see a reverse mystery for once, especially after seeing how happy Fukube was for finally deducing something and being the one to do the rescuing for once.

[Kraco]

Yes, I also think the reverse mystery was a really interesting concept, but in my opinion there was far too little other meaningful stuff in this episode to really do it justice. The whole initiation of the dilemma was stupid beyond belief. A small shack of some 6-8 square meters and they just stood silent in the supposedly dark corner (at most two meters from the door) while somebody first closed the door and then put the beam in place. Not to mention what kind of an oaf locks the door without first looking or asking if anybody's inside. It's no fridge door forgotten open, for crying out loud.

But yeah, it most certainly made Fukube much good, to be able to figure something out successfully.

[shinta|hikari]

The funny thing is, Fukube's accomplishment just serves to show Oreki's capability. It was Oreki who knew that Fukube would be able to figure it out after all.

Honestly, I think Mayaka is just an idiot and anyone with a brain would have thought something was strange once the 2nd item, an empty wallet at that, was found in the same place.

[Buffalobiian]

The funny thing is, Fukube's accomplishment just serves to show Oreki's capability. It was Oreki who knew that Fukube would be able to figure it out after all.

Guess that's what you'd call "having expectations"? :p

I'm not sure I can blame Mayaka. I would not have thought of anything when I saw the handkerchief, and I would have been stumped (but defaulted to no action) if I saw a wallet with nothing in it. It would have taken one more item for me to get off my butt to finally check out what was going on, but Fukube arrived by that time.

[shinta|hikari]

Guess that's what you'd call "having expectations"? :p

Nope. Fukube himself said that "having expectations" means that you are unable to do it yourself. Oreki can of course figure it out because he was the one who had the idea of the coded message in the first place.

[Buffalobiian]

Nope. Fukube himself said that "having expectations" means that you are unable to do it yourself. Oreki can of course figure it out because he was the one who had the idea of the coded message in the first place.

That depends on what we mean by being "unable to do it yourself".

In this case, Oreki was unable to free himself and expected Fukube to.

In the whole Juumonji thing, I thought Fukube invalidated the other guy's use of "having expectations" (in reference to Fukube catching the culprit?) because the dude was actively trying to catch the culprit. He wasn't fully expecting someone else to accomplish the task because he thought he had a possibility of being the accomplisher himself.

You can't wholeheartedly think that someone else will fulfil a task if you thought you could be the one to do it. In this case, I think Oreki knows he can't free himself (without calling out for help), and therefore expects Fukube to.


(That said.. I'm not sure how much I agree with Fukube's take on the word "expectation". Normally I use it to mean I'm reasonably sure someone can/will do something.)

edit: what's the actual word they use for "expectation"? Is it a much surer meaning than its English translation?

[shinta|hikari]

They use the word "kitai", but it's not really any different from the English variant. It is merely Fukube's take that is quite unique, and I thought you were referencing that usage since you put "having expectations" in quotation marks.

When I said being "unable to do it yourself", I meant in terms of capability, not the situation. Fukube tried and failed to solve the Juumonji case, so he was forced to leave it to Oreki. He realized his own limitations. Fukube's usage is about a person's potential and ability, as shown by the scenes where his insecurity surfaces. Oreki's did not have such feelings in this episode, so him asking for help from Fukube does not fit into Fukube's definition of "expectation".

[Kraco]

Oreki had 100% expectations when he realised Fukube had watched the same episode he had and had in fresh memory the scene with the tied... thing. A pouch with a random dirty cord tied around it means absolutely nothing without a specific expectation someone will understand the clue. Although a third lost item from the same persons and the same place should be a heavy enough clue by itself for anybody.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 21 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=350773)



---------------------------------------------















I'm pretty sure I would have rushed to an answer had I been Fukube. I would have wanted to steal the chocolate or at least try to sabotage it at one point, but then realise that there's no way I would be able to destroy my tracks and would just make me looking like an asshole.

[shinta|hikari]

But he is an asshole.

I agree with Mayaka. I am angry at her too for liking such a jerk. Looking at Chitanda all flustered made it worse.

[Kraco]

I have to agree with Oreki, I don't really understand what Fukube was talking about. Especially since not so long ago he was very seriously trying to beat Oreki in detective work. That isn't overly consistent with what he was saying here. Although I suppose being inconsistent is human. Still, he was a real douche by ruining Mayaka's effots. He sounds almost as stupid as people who believe they don't have the right to be happy for whatever reason.

Aside from that depressing stuff, I wonder if Chitanda confessed to Mayaka that she likes Oreki. Being the airhead she is, she didn't give him any chocolate because of family traditions that, I'd think, don't really apply to situations like this at all.

[Buffalobiian]

It's the same as saying "If I don't get close to people, I won't get hurt again". It works, if you're not someone who feels sad by not being close to anyone that is.

Fukube's saying that he feels a lot better now that he doesn't give a shit about anything since when he inevitably fails to be any good at it, it won't hurt.

I'm not sure how much time's passed since the whole arc where he tried beating Oreki, but that even could have worked both ways. Fukube sounded pretty laid back since the first episode, so he probably adopted this stance back then already. The festival got him to try for something again, and confirmed his theory that he's doomed to fail at anything he tries.. and thus he's even more set on not trying anymore.

It's not too different from Oreki's run-in with Irisu - except Fukube didn't get the encouragement Oreki did from Chitanda.

[Kraco]

It's the same as saying "If I don't get close to people, I won't get hurt again". It works, if you're not someone who feels sad by not being close to anyone that is.

Unfortunately for Fukube he very much enjoys interacting with people. And in fact he's more sad by not getting close to Mayaka than he would be by getting closer to her. But it's indeed true that he fears how he might develop if he accepts her. However, he never struck me as a person who would do his utmost to avoid risks.

[Buffalobiian]

Mazui - Episode 22 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=353168)

[Kraco]

I feel like the ending would have been much better if Oreki's line had actually happened and not only been a figment of his imagination and hopefulness. I suppose this way was more fitting for his character and the general theme of the show and it would have been a stretch if he had actually said it aloud, but, come on, a man can step away from his chosen path for a moment, once in his life. Would it really have broken this show if it had happened at the very end of the last episode? Even after 22 eps I felt his character was ambiguous anyway and even the energy saving feature had been pushed to the background in order to satisfy Chitanda's whims.

Now we got a finish where things are as always between both Fukube & Mayaka and Chitanda & Oreki are as friendly as ever but nothing important was said.

[KrayZ33]

this show was awesome...
and such a cute ending.

Would've loved to see more of Irisu, she's so hot

[Buffalobiian]

That was the end?!

I didn't watch this show with episode counts in mind, but right at the end of this episode I had thought that we'd vet another 2 to progress things a little bit further. Damn it.

Hope we get another season of this, but good watch overall.

I never did like the division in Asian countries that separated streams into Humanities and Sciences. I got to mix & match my senior courses and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[shinta|hikari]

Stupid Oreki, not having the guts to go for it.

Still, this leaves a 2nd season possible (and likely, because this is KyoAni and will probably rake in cash) so I am all for it.

I can't help but think that Oreki would do much more good in law enforcement or something that makes use of his deductive skills. Business accounting isn't really going to maximize that, but having Eru as his wife will make sure that hole is covered.

[Buffalobiian]

7
I can't help but think that Oreki would do much more good in law enforcement or something that makes use of his deductive skills. Business accounting isn't really going to maximize that, but having Eru as his wife will make sure that hole is covered.

Seeing the cause and effect of his surroundings, then maximising the amount of gain he can achieve with minimal investment seems to fit right in though. He demonstrated some of that when he forced the hand of the newspaper group fellow who was smoking.

He'll probably need a business partner like Fukube to be his database again though, since Oreki would be too lazy to read widely enough to make such deductions (though I also see Fukube as the wandering type). Mayaka will be there just because Fukube is.

[shinta|hikari]

Chitanda can provide the information. She is incredibly smart with an unbelievable memory after all. The only reason Fukube was given the role of DB was because the story needed another male to prevent a harem from developing.

[Buffalobiian]

Chitanda might provide adequate amounts of information when she's around, but I wouldn't say she's a replacement for Fukube. If Oreki is taking care of the business side while Chitanda's doing the actual growing/research, I can't see them making time to turn up to a business-deal-talk too often.

Chitanda would be focussing her energy and attention onto her own job, while Fukube would be the one Oreki needs to just read widely in general, or research/pull up knowledge about his clients during meetings on demand.

This is all according to the hypothetical scenario in my head though..

[shinta|hikari]

Chitanda is extremely under used in the show. Given the scenario you are imagining, she should be able to handle both tasks. She remembers anything she hears (and I assume sees) once after all, and word for word without even intending to at that.

[David75]

Watched the whole show over the week-end and got that last ep tonight.
I was not convinced by the show, was mildly interrested in the movie arc. Funny thing is I liked side characters better than the quatuor! Irisu piqued my interrest. I liked the manga prez and her friend and many more. But I felt Chitanda lacked depth and was used only for her catch phrase and eyes. Did not like how she's drawn too.

Oreki is portrayed as an energy preserving gray character, meaning boring. Well he's just that almost all of the show.

Mayaka and Fukube are good supporting characters, I guess they made it passable and were the reason I did not drop the show.
There's probably the atmosphere, how places and surrondings are rendered. Somehow I liked that and also watched the show for that reason.

[shinta|hikari]

I watched this more for the mysteries than the characters.

[Kraco]

Episode 11.5 - Mazui (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=392763)

A non-eye cancer inducing version of the Chitanda's boobs special.

[Buffalobiian]

Episode 11.5 - Mazui (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=392763)

A non-eye cancer inducing version

Ah, so that's what this was. I was wondering why I recognised it as something I've (not so) clearly watched before, but didn't mind seeing again either.

Maybe it was something white.