Beating Children/Spanking

[Sapphire]

Holy FUCKING shit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl9y3SIPt7o&feature=youtu.be&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3C fvhsf5cpI%26feature%3Dautoplay%26list%3DULqPw9Gk-O3mA%26lf%3Dmfu_in_order%26playnext%3D8


2004: Aransas County Court-At-Law Judge William Adams took a belt to his own teenage daughter as punishment for using the internet to acquire music and games that were unavailable for legal purchase at the time. She has had ataxic cerebral palsy from birth that led her to a passion for technology, which was strictly forbidden by her father's backwards views. The judge's wife was emotionally abused herself and was severely manipulated into assisting the beating and should not be blamed for any content in this video. The judge's wife has since left the marriage due to the abuse, which continues to this day, and has sincerely apologized and repented for her part and for allowing such a thing, long before this video was even revealed to exist. Judge William Adams is not fit to be anywhere near the law system if he can't even exercise fit judgement as a parent himself. Do not allow this man to ever be re-elected again. His "judgement" is a giant farce. Signed, Hillary Adams, his daughter.

[Sapphire]

More parents beating the shit out of their children in the 90s:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRKOdBBINY&feature=share

[XanBcoo]

It really angers me that so many of society's problems are blamed on "people not hittin they kids enough"

Half of the teachers at my school go on about it and I have to bite my tongue because apparently you're a bleeding heart wingnut liberal if you don't agree with taking your anger out violently on a human being one fourth your size.

[Animeniax]

I still believe in paddling/belt lashing as a form of discipline. Time-outs just don't work to get the kid's attention.

Also, I think we need more cartoons like G.I. Joe with their moral message at the end of each episode. Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!

Or we need mandatory military service.

[Sapphire]

You underestimate children.

[darkshadow]

A spanking still works better than stupid time-outs or trying to reason with a kid; heck animals even listen better than some of these devil children.

[Sapphire]

If you've been beating your child since the age of 2 and they're still that unruly at 6, obviously beating isn't working.

[darkshadow]

Beating is very different from spanking, beating a 2 year old will either get them hospitalised or leave marks and bruises that will have them taken away from you. But yeah if you "beat" a 2 year old and they're still unruly at 6, nothing else would've helped aside some sort of therapy.

[Sapphire]

There is no difference between beating and spanking.

[darkshadow]

beat, beat·en or beat, beat·ing, noun, adjective


verb (used with object)
1.
to strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly.



spank
1    [spangk] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to strike (a person, usually a child) with the open hand, a slipper, etc., especially on the buttocks, as in punishment.

It's very different.

[Sapphire]

You just wrote the same thing twice. Beating "with a reason" is still beating.

[darkshadow]

uhh no, spanking very clearly defines the state of the hand and the target, beating could be anything from clenched fist to a baseball bat targeting anything.
Something is no longer a spank if it doesn't produce the sharp resounding sound of a spank.

[Animeniax]

There's a big difference between the beating and spanking, as evidenced by ds's dictionary entries.

I don't think spanking should be done with something like a wire. And it shouldn't (like most things) be done out of anger. It should be used to teach and discipline.

[XanBcoo]

It should be used to teach and discipline.

What lesson is being taught?

[Animeniax]

What lesson is being taught?

Depends on the offense. But associating certain behaviors (bad ones) with pain is a good way to discourage those behaviors.

Don't get me wrong, hitting a kid for cooking is not discipline unless they've been told before not to do it, and the consequences if they do.

[Sapphire]

No it isn't. Why would you try to control someone's behavior through pain? That does not teach them reasoning. That does not teach them to be a logical human who can think for himself.

[Animeniax]

No it isn't. Why would you try to control someone's behavior through pain? That does not teach them reasoning. That does not teach them to be a logical human who can think for himself.

You can't teach kids reasoning as easily as you seem to think, they don't have the life experience or understanding to appreciate consequences. You tell them what's what and then have to make them understand it. If people could so easily be reasoned with, there wouldn't be drunk driving, drug use, murder, etc.

We teach pets the same way. And I love my dog. But nothing else works.

[KrayZ33]

You just wrote the same thing twice. Beating "with a reason" is still beating.
beating hurts, spanking shouldn't

spanking a child should be the same thing as spanking a new born baby.
its the shock that makes them cry, not the pain. (everything else is beating)

thats one of the reasons why spanking won't work if you keep doing and rely on it often.

but lets not forget, your moms and dads turned out to be good (at least I hope so)
and why don't you ask them about their time in school and what teachers did there

[David75]

I do not know if my participation in this will help since I do not have a clear answer/solution I would apply.

I would prefer the no spank rule, no violence, not even a psychological one.
But truth is, some children clearly are almost impossible to manage and no one can help you manage them.

Do not forget that parents also have their problems and hard days and some children can really bring you over the pain limit.
Example:
Said child yells for everything not pleasing it, day and night, shouting, making fusses all the time regardless of the way you try to present things. You've had hard days, at work, in your familly...
It might happen that you cross a line where you can't bear it anymore.

Honestly, it's one of the reasons why I do not want children.
I've seen many cases of incredibly unmanageable children with parents that had dreams of no violence. Dreams severly crushed, as
they have to spank at times and even yell.
I do not want that because I know I'm not better than those people.
I have other reasons I do not want children, don't get me wrong ;)

[Sapphire]

@Ani:

So you equate children to animals who have no brain capacity to know what they're doing and must be violently conditioned against "bad" behaviors like your dog. This reasoning doesn't make it OK to hit them.

How many children have you even seen? I deal with 3-4+ year olds for my work. Regardless of what you want to think, they aren't that stupid. Treating them like idiots who have to be hit to "get the point" doesn't help their intellectual growth or ability to distinguish "right from wrong," only making them understand with their mind helps.

If you already think a child is an idiot who won't get it unless you hit them, it makes me wonder how much you'd even bother reasoning with a child before hitting him in the first place. I often just see DO WHAT I SAY, YOU'RE NOT DOING IT? *SMACK*.

[Buffalobiian]

beating hurts, spanking shouldn't

spanking a child should be the same thing as spanking a new born baby.
its the shock that makes them cry, not the pain. (everything else is beating)

thats one of the reasons why spanking won't work if you keep doing it.

Spanking? lol.. I don't think I've ever been "spanked" by that definition. "Beat" with a stick? Sure, countless times.

(Disciplining tip: use flexible bamboo/plastic. It bends so you won't break bones, so you can go all out. Make sure the target is wearing clothes as to not cut the skin. It saves you medical bills by preventing infection.)

Ani's got a point regarding the ability to comprehend consequences. Apparently I bit this girl when I was young after watching Lion King. Dad told me off, but I did it again. He bit me hard after the teacher told him what happened, and I never did it again.

Fuck having kids...

[Kraco]

Humanity is driven by two things: Fear and greed.

The law enforcement (not laws themselves, but their enforcement) of every bloody country on Earth (except Somalia that has none) is based on fear of consequences. Still people overly regularly speed or ignore red lights if they think they can get away with it with decent odds. So, if the adult world is based on fear, what could make anybody think the child world shouldn't be?

[Sapphire]

That's a question of "is" vs. "should be".

[KrayZ33]

Spanking? lol.. I don't think I've ever been "spanked" by that definition. "Beat" with a stick? Sure, countless times.

thats a shame then.

even people 2000 years (and more) ago knew that you don't have to use strong force or even tools to chastise someone

[Buffalobiian]

thats a shame then.

Just to clarify, I was talking about the spanking=hand part. All the hits were in the name of disciplining.

[KrayZ33]

Don't worry, I'm not trying to say your parents (or whoever) are a mad and abusive

I'm just trying to state that I believe, serious hitting with the intend of *hurting* the child so it learns the lesson is over the top

[fahoumh]

Does anyone here even have children?

[EpyonNext]

Does anyone here even have children?

Quote of the century.

[Sapphire]

Theoretically, we were all children once.

[Buffalobiian]

Theoretically, we were all children once.

Only in theory. :rolleyes:

[David75]

Does anyone here even have children?

I don't. And I probably won't.
But the experience I get from others isn't enticing enough...

[Alhuin]

I work in retail. I see hundreds of children every day, most of which are just children and do child-like things. But occasionally there are the children that will run down aisles knocking things off the shelves, scream constantly at the top of their lungs, hit and kick random people/associates, and generally just be an all-around demon-child. It's children like this that have not had any discipline from their parents, rather it be spanking or some other form, and the reason why I feel it is necessary.

When I was young, I did stupid things. I was disciplined for it. I didn't do them again, or if I did, I expected to be punished. I don't think I've turned out any more fucked-up than I would have without being spanked.

But again, as DS originally mentioned, there is a big difference between being spanked and being beaten.

[Animeniax]

beating hurts, spanking shouldn't

spanking a child should be the same thing as spanking a new born baby.
its the shock that makes them cry, not the pain. (everything else is beating)

thats one of the reasons why spanking won't work if you keep doing and rely on it often.

but lets not forget, your moms and dads turned out to be good (at least I hope so)
and why don't you ask them about their time in school and what teachers did there
Spankings hurt. They leave your butt cheeks sore and red and it hurts to sit after you've been spanked. It may also be an emotional/psychological pain from being punished by your parents. But it's mostly a physical pain. Once they associate that pain (specifically from spankings) with the acts that result in that pain, they will learn and stop those acts. That's the hope anyway.

[KrayZ33]

what I'm saying is that its enough to give a cuff if you think you have to use some kind of force to get your point across

if parents spank their children with such great force, so that their butt-cheeks are red and hurt when they try to sit, then that has nothing to do with disciplining anymore.. they just want to blow off some steam.

[Y]

Corporal punishment is purely immoral. Here's a very simple question: in what situation is it appropriate for you to hit an adult in order to correct their pattern of behavior? None (please do not bring up facile examples like defending yourself from a mugging as behavioral correction). There are consequently no situations where hitting a child to correct their behavior is appropriate. You, as an adult, are perfectly capable of physically controlling a child without resorting to violence.

[Animeniax]

what I'm saying is that its enough to give a cuff if you think you have to use some kind of force to get your point across

if parents spank their children with such great force, so that their butt-cheeks are red and hurt when they try to sit, then that has nothing to do with disciplining anymore.. they just want to blow off some steam.
I disagree. It doesn't take that much force to tan the soft backside of a child. And if it doesn't hurt, then they won't learn a lesson from it, then it's pointless.

It's like touching a hot burner on the stove. They'll do it one time and learn never to do it again.


Corporal punishment is purely immoral. Here's a very simple question: in what situation is it appropriate for you to hit an adult in order to correct their pattern of behavior? None (please do not bring up facile examples like defending yourself from a mugging as behavioral correction). There are consequently no situations where hitting a child to correct their behavior is appropriate. You, as an adult, are perfectly capable of physically controlling a child without resorting to violence.

Apples and oranges. If children had the cognitive capability than adults have, then the only differences between the two groups would be physical and experience. Then you take a midget who has lived a sheltered life and he'd be no different from a child. An adult might not learn from a spanking, but a child will.

[KrayZ33]

And if it doesn't hurt, then they won't learn a lesson from it, then it's pointless.

and that is wrong.

[Y]

Apples and oranges. If children had the cognitive capability than adults have, then the only differences between the two groups would be physical and experience. Then you take a midget who has lived a sheltered life and he'd be no different from a child. An adult might not learn from a spanking, but a child will.

Children do not have the same cognitive abilities as adults. Thus, a child will take a beating less appropriately than an adult would - after all, an adult will listen to "reason" about how the abuse was justified. Children of course take entirely the wrong lessons from virtually everything, and it's not as though hitting a child to correct their behavior is actually rationally justified.

A simple example, again:


It's like touching a hot burner on the stove. They'll do it one time and learn never to do it again.

Yes, exactly. Once you beat your child and then demonstrate a causal relationship between the beating and the negative behavior the child exhibited, the behavior is instantly corrected. My goodness you are a fucking idiot.

[Animeniax]

and that is wrong.

Pain is the human experience that teaches us not to do something. If you skated without protective equipment on and broke your arm, but it didn't hurt to break your arm, what would prevent you from doing the same dumb thing? Spanking a child is application of a basic truth about human physiology and behavioral learning.


Children do not have the same cognitive abilities as adults. Thus, a child will take a beating less appropriately than an adult would - after all, an adult will listen to "reason" about how the abuse was justified. Children of course take entirely the wrong lessons from virtually everything, and it's not as though hitting a child to correct their behavior is actually rationally justified.

A simple example, again:

Yes, exactly. Once you beat your child and then demonstrate a causal relationship between the beating and the negative behavior the child exhibited, the behavior is instantly corrected. My goodness you are a fucking idiot.
Not sure what kinds of adults you deal with or if you're spewing from some college textbook (probably citing wikipedia) but adults don't listen to reason, especially when confronted with violence. They may adjust their view temporarily to avoid physical pain. Children aren't quite as capable at learning to exploit this relationship, so bad act = pain works with them where reasoning does not.

We should be glad you're into same sex so you don't procreate and we have another shitty undisciplined brat yelling in the movie theatre or running amok at the grocery store. Though you could always adopt I guess.

[KrayZ33]

doesn't change the fact that they don't have to suffer pain from spanking to learn a lesson, lol

and since when does pain prevent children from doing the same thing some time later again?

[Animeniax]

doesn't change the fact that they don't have to suffer pain from spanking to learn a lesson, lol

and since when does pain prevent children from doing the same thing some time later again?

Feel free to continue issuing timeouts and trying to reason with kids to do what you want them to do. Good luck with that.

[KrayZ33]

I've never recieved any form of physical pain when I was a child... so not really a problem I guess.
doesn't change the fact that its not the pain which gives them a lesson, but that they parents are seriously angry with them

if you spank someones else child it won't have the same effect as if you spank your own one, which loves you and cares about what you think of him/her

and if you do it too often, it won't have an effect at all
so pain = lesson learned, is just plain bs..

[Y]

Spanking a child is application of a basic truth about human physiology and behavioral learning.

What we have here in actuality is an application of the basic truth that your posts on any given subject are as wrong as they can possibly be. You should post about lottery numbers and see if anyone on here can devise a system that lets them win every time. Just a brief tour around the child psychology field pretty much routs your argument that this is just a "basic truth".

Source (http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx)


... Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment...

Note the sad dithering by the author of the press release to qualify her findings.

Source (http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP78%20-%20Straus%2BDouglas-Pub-Policy%20-%20CP-08.pdf)


...There has been a large amount of research, much of it of high quality, showing that [corporal punishment] is a risk factor for many social and psychological problems...

... Without exception, these 20 studies revealed that CP was associated with an increased probability of mental health problems. Thirteen studies investigated delinquent behavior. It is widely believed that CP “teaches the child a lesson” and therefore reduces delinquency. Instead, in 12 of the 13 studies CP was found to be associated with a higher probability of delinquent and anti-social behavior. The same near unanimity (4 out of 5) was found for studies of the relation between experiencing CP as a child and later adult criminal behavior...

Emphasis mine in all cases.

The facts are unanimous in their rejection of your "basic truth" and "common sense" approach to child rearing, which I pray you have never employed in any real world scenarios. I would assemble an absolute juggernaut of a post attempting to get the studies mentioned off of a public portal and cite them individually if I had any suspicion that your posts in this thread are arguments in good faith. Considering your fucking dreadful post history it's more likely you are supporting corporal punishment because you have an unsustainable desire to pour shit over every thread posted on Gotwoot.


We should be glad you're into same sex so you don't procreate and we have another shitty undisciplined brat yelling in the movie theatre or running amok at the grocery store. Though you could always adopt I guess.

Just a note: Kagemane_no_Jutsu at least had a mild concussion to blame for his bigoted ramblings in the flame pit. I have absolutely no problems with you flaming the quality of my posts, but bringing the quality of my flaming into it, so to speak, is hilariously over the top even for you.

EDIT:

It's been a long time. I shouldn't have left you.



The current discussion includes how corporal punishment should be defined, how corporal punishment can be distinguished from physical abuse, and whether established associations with child behaviors are best thought of as parent- or child-driven effects. In light of their comments, Gershoff herein revises the process-context model, revisits the issue of whether current knowledge is sufficient to condemn the use of parental corporal punishment, and concludes that lack of demonstrated positive effects and the potential links to physical abuse argue for discouraging corporal punishment in favor of alternative methods of discipline.




... Second, in contrast to other discipline behaviors, there is a large body of high-quality and
well-controlled research showing adverse mental health effects of CP, including prospective
studies, This enables evaluation of this mode of discipline to be evidence-based.
Third, a focus on CP is necessitated by the public health principle that removing a risk
factor with a small effect size. but which is broadly prevalent (such as CP), can result in a
much larger reduction in illness rates than removing a risk factor such as physical abuse,
which has more damaging etfects on individuals, but occurs relatively rarely (Rose, 1985),
Fourth, is the cultural myth that CP is 'sometimes necessary'. This is based on the belief
that CP is effective when other methods have failed. We label this as a myth because research
shows that, although CP is effective in stopping misbehavior in the immediate situation,
these studies also show that it is not more effective than other modes of discipline, even
in the immediate situation.

A PowerPoint presentation of findings regarding sexual misbehaviors and corporal punishment. (http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP79-CP-of-children-sexual-behavior-problems-08-Washington.pdf)





I'm not even going to cite any particular passage from the last one. The title pretty much gives it away. Someone should teach this guy about spoiler rules. It's gripping reading if you (I use the general "you" here, as it does not apply to Animeniax) have any sincere interest in the subject.

I didn't use Wikipedia, Animeniax, I used Google and the certain knowledge that it would be effortless to find specific, numerous, professionally damning passages to smack you in the face. I have only a brief knowledge of the subject myself, having browsed SA threads on corporal punishment when LF was still active, and never having delved too deeply into the subject I cannot quote chapter and verse from publications about child psychology like you can. Oh, wait. You just pulled all your opinions from the same place your posts normally originate. You said that your ideas about child rearing are a "basic truth" of child psychology when virtually the entire field is arrayed against you. Even the dissonant studies that do not agree with my perspective are merely inconclusive instead of contradictory. But don't worry. I'm sure your real world, no-nonsense approach won't be deterred by things like mountains of real-world evidence or logical arguments that you barely even read in your rush to shitpost about absolutely everything.

[shinta|hikari]

It really depends on the child. For the most part, spanking is not necessary, but there are definitely crazy kids out there.

I practically raised my nephews and nieces when they were growing up, so I am speaking from experience.

[Kraco]

This discussion veered away from the fact (and it is a fact, not only applicable to children but adults and animals alike) that it's the fear of punishment of any kind, not only corporal, that has the effect, not the punishment itself. Like those dubious papers Y quoted said (and I'm sure the researchers behind them had the results ready and waiting before they even began the studies), physical or mental violence itself is risky. But no discipline will statistically result in lots of monster children like anybody who leaves his room and has at least a single working eye must know. Children are individuals though, and greatly affected by those around them, so where one kid will grow up just fine without any punishments (as opposed to KrayZ), another will turn bad.

To get back to the beginning, the method used must be able to generate that fear. In ye olde times when suspicious researchers weren't yet writing their papers, nobody thought twice about spanking as the first method of choice.

[Y]

It really depends on the child. For the most part, spanking is not necessary, but there are definitely crazy kids out there.

I practically raised my nephews and nieces when they were growing up, so I am speaking from experience.

I mean god damn. This is the company you keep. Think about that.

[shinta|hikari]

What do you mean?

[darkshadow]

He's talking about something nobody wants to revisit, so just ignore it ;]?

[Y]

He's talking about something nobody wants to revisit, so just ignore it ;]?

I am on fire today.

[Animeniax]

This discussion veered away from the fact (and it is a fact, not only applicable to children but adults and animals alike) that it's the fear of punishment of any kind, not only corporal, that has the effect, not the punishment itself. Like those dubious papers Y quoted said (and I'm sure the researchers behind them had the results ready and waiting before they even began the studies), physical or mental violence itself is risky. But no discipline will statistically result in lots of monster children like anybody who leaves his room and has at least a single working eye must know. Children are individuals though, and greatly affected by those around them, so where one kid will grow up just fine without any punishments (as opposed to KrayZ), another will turn bad.

To get back to the beginning, the method used must be able to generate that fear. In ye olde times when suspicious researchers weren't yet writing their papers, nobody thought twice about spanking as the first method of choice.As you noted that's the problem with science, particularly social sciences. The experiments can be performed in a way to support the hypothesis, not just to test them. Y found notes from some studies supporting his point. I could just as easily find that many supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment. Another issue is what is reported, how much is disclosed, and other factors not tested for.

And yes, the corporal punishment must come from someone whom the child has a positive relationship with, as the punishment essentially threatens that relationship, and that is what brings the child in line and corrects behavior. Paddling by the school principle will not have the same effect as paddling from your parent (assuming you have a healthy relationship with that parent).

[TwisT]

I'm against spanking/beating as a form of discipline. I can barely discipline a dog. I feel guilty as fuck when i get an outburst and lash the dog with the leash even though it wasn't really that hard and the thick fur probably absorbed everything. I believe that the most you should go too is to grab the childs shoulders, raise your voice and give him a firm shake, not talking about some aggressive shake that leaves neck injury as is reported every now and then, but a firm one that lets the child know it's serious business. It should get that shock effect that stops the child in his tracks, and then you can start talking to the child. And this is of course only for when the child is out of control and won't listen and just screams or/and runs around. And if this doesn't help, in my opinion it's the parents that has failed to begin with. Because if the child don't respond to even that he has been sugar coated to much that he is used to be able to do whatever he wants that he don't even take that serious.

You have to establish your dominance/authority from an early point in life so the child knows that when you raise your voice, playtime is over and it's time to start listen to the "authority". And this is doable without violence if done from early age. It only works if the child is raised to realize the severity of the situation when the parent raises the voice and/or grabbing the shoulders. I get the feeling these demon children you see have from the beginning never been disciplined. At least not from the start. I bet that when they threw their temper tantrums their parents just caved in and let them continue their bad behavior, or bribed/rewarded them with an ice cream to get them quiet. And then when they got older and they are really out of control nothing will work on them because they are the authority. All they need to do is scream and throw a temper tantrum. And if you finally start to stand up for yourself and not cave in they have learned that they are the boss of the house and will just step their game up by maybe even get violent. And violence might be the solution to establish the dominance/authority but does that sound right? Should the child suffer physical punishment just because the parent failed to begin with? If this is the solution then in my opinion the parent should go out to the street and get someone to physically punish them for their failure too. Because to me this is like you feeding your child crack for years and then suddenly you realize the error of your way and stop, and every time the child screams you "correct" it by giving it a spanking.

Also i find it that parents that feel the need to spank or beat their children or just thinks this is good and justified parenting usually use this type for everything. Not only when things go to far. Child slaps a sibling? Spanking time! Child breaks something? Spanking time! Child don't wanna go to sleep? Spanking time! As soon as the child don't do something that pleases the parent or don't do something the parent agrees on it's spanking time.

[Animeniax]

It worked for Ben Grimm.

[Kraco]

Also i find it that parents that feel the need to spank or beat their children or just thinks this is good and justified parenting usually use this type for everything. Not only when things go to far. Child slaps a sibling? Spanking time! Child breaks something? Spanking time! Child don't wanna go to sleep? Spanking time! As soon as the child don't do something that pleases the parent or don't do something the parent agrees on it's spanking time.

Those are failures of parents to begin with. When we are talking about corporal punishment in raising children, the basic setting should be parents who absolutely would not want to touch their children violently. Because decent parents love their children, and you don't want to hurt somebody you love. So, they do it against their feelings, for the sake of the child's manners and morals. Even if you argue morals out of fear of punishment are external morals, from the society's point of view it doesn't matter if it's inherent or slapped on. And indeed the primary goal of raising a child is to make sure the offspring has a decent chance in the society and will thus lead a wholesome life.

[Y]

As you noted that's the problem with science, particularly social sciences. The experiments can be performed in a way to support the hypothesis, not just to test them. Y found notes from some studies supporting his point. I could just as easily find that many supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment.

Lazy, awful, and patently untrue.

[Animeniax]

Those are failures of parents to begin with. When we are talking about corporal punishment in raising children, the basic setting should be parents who absolutely would not want to touch their children violently. Because decent parents love their children, and you don't want to hurt somebody you love. So, they do it against their feelings, for the sake of the child's manners and morals. Even if you argue morals out of fear of punishment are external morals, from the society's point of view it doesn't matter if it's inherent or slapped on. And indeed the primary goal of raising a child is to make sure the offspring has a decent chance in the society and will thus lead a wholesome life.

See these are the same basic assumptions I work with. A good caring parent will still need to resort to spanking because in some cases it's the only way to teach the child. A bad parent will beat/abuse the child as the only form of parenting they have at their disposal.

[Killa-Eyez]

I've been spanked, lashed, and beaten. Not your typical "Demon child" but certainly a pain in the ass. In my case my parents didn't know any better as they were "spanked" (likely more severely) when they were disciplined. Throw in the fact they had me unwilling and unplanned.

Can't say if those beatings helped me or not, too far a long for my recollection. I do however hold strong moral just towards infants and believe every child is approachable in a non-violent manner. Some more difficult than the other but as a parent it's your task to find out which buttons to push.

Violence is simple, harsh and mentally effortless. It shows a disinterest for more plausible solutions. Then again, it's a violent world. If your child never had one "spanking".. You get the gist.

I personally do not believe in violence and wish it upon nobody. Sadly reality shows others have different views. So as long as there's violence I think it's a must to a least have some sort of experience in it, if only for survival purposes. Should it be given by the parent? I think not. There's lots of other healthy ways in which a child can be introduced with physical violence.

I probably sound Gandhi-like with my views but rest assured, I have done many violent things and will probably be subjected to more. I just don't think violence is ever a solution but just simply a vicious circle of hate. I obviously talk out of experience.

[UChessmaster]

I see nothing wrong with spanking your children when necessary.

[XanBcoo]

We should be glad you're into same sex so you don't procreate and we have another shitty undisciplined brat yelling in the movie theatre or running amok at the grocery store. Though you could always adopt I guess.
I work with shitty, undisciplined brats who are beaten by their parents on a day to day basis and everything you've said is dismissive, unsupported by even the weakest anecdotal evidence, and almost completely wrong.

Stop being a shit head. There is no definitive way to "discipline" a person and smacking the fuck out of a small child does not teach them to avoid any sort of behavior that they won't repeat again.

You did, however, touch on the more important point that it's far more important to establish a positive relationship with a child before any sort of discipline takes place.

[Animeniax]

I work with shitty, undisciplined brats who are beaten by their parents on a day to day basis and everything you've said is dismissive, unsupported by even the weakest anecdotal evidence, and almost completely wrong.

Stop being a shit head. There is no definitive way to "discipline" a person and smacking the fuck out of a small child does not teach them to avoid any sort of behavior that they won't repeat again.

You did, however, touch on the more important point that it's far more important to establish a positive relationship with a child before any sort of discipline takes place.

When did spanking become synonymous with "beating" and "smacking the fuck out of" your kid?

[Sapphire]

Hitting kids argument @ HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=72JIOWGKoKY#t=403s)

[darkshadow]

I seriously couldn't listen to his how selfrightious(i'm not sure this is the word I'm looking for) he sounded...; he sounded just as bad as ppl that are completely pro hitting your kids.
"spanking has reliably shown to cause drops in IQ"; I guess my 147 must've been near 200 then....stfu..

[Sapphire]

"Self-righteous,' meaning he sounds too confident that beating children is wrong, therefore his argument should be disregarded?

He already addressed your anecdote of "I'm fine/smart therefore you're wrong because I was spanked" as a non-sequitor. He was using evidence from a scientific study to debunk that argument so I don't see why you seem grated.

[Killa-Eyez]

I think he meant he sounds "full of himself" being a sympethatic Mr. Goodie-2-shoes towards those who have (been) spanked. Gotta admit, the way he looks into that camera saying all that stuff with those big puppy eyes is quite nauseating.
Nevertheless, like drugs "spanking"=bad, mmmkay?

[Sapphire]

"He looks obnoxious" is a startlingly bad non-argument to avoid the issue.

[darkshadow]

Nobody is "avoiding the issue"; the way he sounded is just the wrong way to deliver a message like this. I dare go as far as to say he almost sounded religious with his view on the matter: "I'm an atheist, there is no god, you are wrong and I'm right; fuck you".
And no he didn't debunk any argument I made, cause I didn't make any; he's basically saying, hey yeah all of you that got spanked are now dumber people because of it and are only so so instead of being totally awesome....hey because you didn't accept JC as your lord and savior your life is now so so instead of awesome....

I'm sure you realise I'm exaggerating, but that's just the impression he left behind with that stupid smug face and voice of his :D.

Hmm, and here I told myself I would stay out of this discussion....so I guess this is my last post here ;D.

[Sapphire]

You seem really personally offended about the IQ thing.

[Animeniax]

Because it's barely correlated, definitely not causal. There are so many other factors to IQ (and IQ testing) that can't be controlled for when testing solely for corporal punishment -> lower IQ. It's specious reasoning in the guise of science.

[Sapphire]

I Googled "spanking" and "IQ" and read the first 10 websites.

Sure, let's disregard the data though.

[XanBcoo]

He already addressed your anecdote of "I'm fine/smart therefore you're wrong because I was spanked" as a non-sequitor. He was using evidence from a scientific study to debunk that argument so I don't see why you seem grated.
He actually didn't use scientific studies to refute that argument, just poor logic. A lot of that guy's arguments were really weak, and the way he talked made me want to hit him harder than Animeniax wants to hit his kids.

Regardless, whether low IQ scores and Corporal Punishment have a causal relationship or merely a correlative one, it's still in the kid's best interest not to use violence as a negative punishment strategy, as evidenced by 1 minute of researching the issue online and Y's articles posted earlier in the thread.

I'd also like to say that as weak as anecdotal evidence is, I see the effects of corporal punishment on a day to day basis, and as someone who is in the business of child behavior and management strategies, resorting to physical punishment is completely ineffective in the face of a mountain of other resources.

Hell, even if it were stacked against other negative punishments it still does a pretty terrible job. The evidence supporting its effectiveness is so inconclusive, and the evidence of its negative effects so numerous that it's silly to even consider it. It's a way to vent frustration, nothing more.

Edit to below: I was just on my way to correct that. Thank you. My ideas got jumbled.

[Buffalobiian]

The evidence against its effectiveness is so inconclusive,

Evidence for* its effectiveness?

[Animeniax]

I think they refer to that as a "Freudian slip". You mistakenly posted what you actually feel, instead of the PC message you're trying to espouse. Very very telling.

And no, I don't want to hit my kids. I will be the type of parent who wouldn't have to resort to it, since I will teach them discipline and respect in other ways, but would not rule out spankings to ensure compliance. If other parents can't teach their kids these lessons with non-physical methods, then I want them to spank their kids so I don't have to put up with their shit in public spaces.

[Dark Dragon]

I think corporal punishment does work to a certain extent, but not as much as many of you think it does.

If the kid realize that you are purposely not trying to hurt them and only intent is to give them pain to stop the behavior then it becomes useless altogether. In that situation the kid mindset would be "I'll get in trouble, but it's only a little bit pain and nothing worst than that".

I do think things like "time-out" are generally useless and modern parents are too soft on their children. There are many effective way to deter or encourage a behavior.

For example, i currently go and visit my niece and nephew once a week. My niece has a terrible habit of biting her fingernails, but i generally got her to stop it by associating not biting her fingernails with getting a treat every time i come over. Also if you're having trouble coming up with punishment, foods generally works really well. My nephew hates broccoli, so my brother would always make some when he does something bad. One of us would then stand over him and make him finish every bit of it before he can go do anything else. I believe the key is to make the punishment as unpleasant as possible, and that doesn't necessarily mean it has to hurt physically.

There are always exception to the rule though and there have been enough cases of criminals coming from perfectly functional family to prove that.

[Kraco]

Why does this argument always go back to beating children so much their IQ will drop or they will get used to spanking? The number of spankings should be so low that as a parent you'd remember every one. Otherwise it will indeed very quickly indicate nothing but failed parenting or a clinically sociopath kid. A kid at the spanking age is still 100% dependent on the family, and thus the act of spanking should be psychologically traumatic. It should definitely not be "it's only a little pain every time I steal an ice cream, no big deal". It should be not only the physical pain but also humiliation, uncertainty, and all manner of other negative feelings that will generate the fear and maintain it so that it never needs to be (ineffectively) repeated.

[Animeniax]

Kraco has it right. In the right child-rearing environment, spanking is not something resorted to easily or with regularity. I can think of maybe 3 times in my childhood where we did stuff bad enough to get spanked.

The studies you all are referencing are most likely referring to something closer to child abuse. Normal disciplining of your child through spanking won't hurt the IQ, unless maybe if you strike them in the head. I suppose it could hurt them emotionally/psychologically enough so they perform poorer on IQ tests, but that link is still dubious.

[Deadlift]

Kraco has it right. In the right child-rearing environment, spanking is not something resorted to easily or with regularity. I can think of maybe 3 times in my childhood where we did stuff bad enough to get spanked.

The studies you all are referencing are most likely referring to something closer to child abuse. Normal disciplining of your child through spanking won't hurt the IQ, unless maybe if you strike them in the head. I suppose it could hurt them emotionally/psychologically enough so they perform poorer on IQ tests, but that link is still dubious.

I also agree with kraco, I was spanked as a child, not beaten, the difference being the purpose, not fear or control, but respect. It`s like if you know someone who never swears, but the moment they do you take them a hell of a lot more seriously than your friend who tells you how F*cked his day is all the time. Just like spanking, if yourè hitting your kid on a daily basis you can`t seriously consider it discipline, it`s abuse. That being said if a parent were to spank a child only when necessary the message would be a lot different.

With regards to the IQ debate, IQ is a measure of intelligence quotient, Einstein had an almost average IQ, but it could be said he maximized that potential. To make a claim such as quote on quote data has been gathered to show emotional issues caused by abuse to be linked to intelligence is being indignant; consider some of the greatest minds regarded by society lived in a time when it was common place to beat not just spank your children. There are already accredited ways of gauging emotional potential (EQ) and it is far more logical to connect emotional abuse as a contributing factor within those fields, for this reason I seriously doubt any so called data from google, which are not legitimate beyond how many people have viewed them.

In the end agree beating children is wrong, I disagree that a spanking constitutes a beating, emotional abuse is not intrinsically tied to physical force and by claiming such a connection as an absolute it diminishes the complexity of the issue.

[Y]

I think they refer to that as a "Freudian slip". You mistakenly posted what you actually feel, instead of the PC message you're trying to espouse. Very very telling.




Don't post in this thread anymore you stupid son of a bitch.

[Animeniax]

Don't post in this thread anymore you stupid son of a bitch.

Suck it. Which is what you do anyway, so have fun.

[Sapphire]

I worked with a 4 year old today and I continued to be amazed at how fast he could pick things up, and then build upon his prior knowledge and apply it to other problems. (Like doing adding and subtracting in his head after working with blocks, then using that knowledge to manipulate dollar amounts). Not to mention his spacial reasoning is off the chain, and he learned how to read ridiculously quickly.

If one of us made some sort of mistake or blunder, he could immediately tell what the source of the blunder was, or what misunderstanding or slip of mind caused it. He's FOUR. I have worked closely with other very young minds and if you take the time to explain the logic of something, they certainly understand it. Young children aren't dogs that need to be programmed and conditioned through violence, like Ani stupidly thinks. And Ani, even if you were just trolling, I've lost all respect for you. Beating children to bend them to one's will isn't funny.

I want to teach that kid how to play chess.

It makes me sick that people take bright bundles of human potential and try to beat them into obedience. Just sick.

[David75]

Strip physical violence and that's exactly what modern societies are doing: forcing people into obedience.
But I admit this is quite off-topic.

[Animeniax]

Are you espousing Foucault?

[Sapphire]

More videos... WOW.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q8smmtRECXE

[darkshadow]

http://allhiphop.com/2011/12/16/hip-hop-rumors-signs-the-world-is-coming-to-an-end/

[XanBcoo]

How can the author of that article come to the conclusion that more kids need "Tough Love" when they just spent the entirety explaining that it did literally no good whatsoever and turned the entire ordeal into a joke?

[darkshadow]

It doesn't matter if it didn't "do any good", cause what if it did? What if that whipping could've kept him from being killed; are you really that fucking against "violence" that you wouldn't even explore that option to potentially save someone you deeply care about? I guess not, you'd probably just reason with them, see that it didn't work and give up, find the person dead the next day and cry about how you maybe could've done more.
Maybe you need to change your title to "Ghandi".

[Sapphire]

It obviously didn't work because he was obviously scared to admit that he's an actual gangbanger. Well even though he lied to avoid the beating he still got beat.

Someone who was compassionate would have gotten an admission that he was actually in a gangbanger. And then talked him out of it with words instead of IF I CATCH YOU I'LL BEAT YOUR ASS.

[darkshadow]

That is a completely unfounded assumption, how the fuck do you know if everyone else in his family didn't already do this? Seeing how it's his uncle that dished out the punishment he could've easily been like "ok this shit isn't working, the kid isn't listening at fucking all".

There is always 2 sides to any story, just because you saw a whipping doesn't fucking mean it started this way, this gangbanger shit of that dumbass kid was obviously already going on for a while.

[Sapphire]

- Uncle sees gangbanging pics on FB
- Storms after kid
- Kid goes OHSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT IT WASNT ME
- Uncle goes FUCK YOU YOU'RE GETTING IT, TELL THEM ITS A LIE BITCH
- It's all a lie!!!!!! OMG I'm still getting beaten???? OMGGGGG
- Goes back to gangbanging because no one ever told him why it's a fucking bad idea, they just beat him
- Shot and killed

-Scenario 2-

-Kid gangbangs
-Uncle sees
-Son, I need to talk to you, gangbanging is dangerous, please take care of your life
-Kid denies it
-Uncle keeps talking compassionately until a dialogue opens
-Kid stops gangbanging because he's reasoned out in his head due to talking to a functional reseoning adult
-Kid is alive now

[darkshadow]

I'm done, there is no reasoning with someone who assumes shit and can't accept that shit went on that we didn't fucking see.

[Sapphire]

I don't understand how you think beating someone can convince someone of logic, other than discussion. Philosophers don't beat each other, they persuade each other with words.

Would you rather someone beat you for doing something they don't like, or talk you out of it?

[Kraco]

What makes you think a gangbanger listens to anybody's words? If he doesn't listen to words, he might listen to a punishment, because it forces him to evaluate his options, unlike words. If you ask me, a person prone to gangbanging already demonstrates an inclination not to obey the rules of civilization (that is, discussions and reasoning), but rather the rules of barbarism. Whether the kid stays out of gangs due to a sudden enlightement from sagacious words or due to realising his lowly place in the grand scheme of things after a beating, would both result in saving his life. However, it's unreasonable to assume this particular uncle could have Gandhied the kid out of trouble peacefully, so he tried the only way he was capable of. Either way, like the article said, he did care.

[Buffalobiian]

Someone explain to me the difference between a gangbanger and a gangster.

I'm getting results from gangbanger = gangster, pussy-gangster to gang sexer.

[Sapphire]

What makes you think a gangbanger listens to anybody's words?


Sociologically speaking, people join gangs (at least in America) for a sense of community and cohesiveness. They aren't subhuman who can't listen to words.

[MFauli]

Someone explain to me the difference between a gangbanger and a gangster.

I'm getting results from gangbanger = gangster, pussy-gangster to gang sexer.

Please be joking :/

[XanBcoo]

I'm done, there is no reasoning with someone who assumes shit and can't accept that shit went on that we didn't fucking see.
The irony hurts more than my dads beatings

What if that whipping could've kept him from being killed; are you really that fucking against "violence" that you wouldn't even explore that option to potentially save someone you deeply care about?

lololol I'm so logical because I don't assume things even though the kid actually died and the beating did absolutely no good and I'm still clinging onto the idea that it might have helped lol logical logical.


If he doesn't listen to words, he might listen to a punishment, because it forces him to evaluate his options, unlike words. If you ask me, a person prone to gangbanging already demonstrates an inclination not to obey the rules of civilization (that is, discussions and reasoning), but rather the rules of barbarism.
Hmmm...and I wonder where he might have learned that!

Ignore me, though. I'm assuming and being illogical.

[Animeniax]

There's no evidence that the beating had anything to do with the death. The kid could have tried to stay clean but got sucked into the shit and died anyway. Or he could have reacted badly to the beating and gotten more into the gangsta lifestyle, leading to his death.

[Kraco]

Yeah, this is a lone example case and can't statistically prove anything one way or another. If what his mom was telling was even close to the truth, it does suggest he at least tried, a little, to stay out of it, but in the end didn't possess the willpower or a strong enough external stimulus to override his own lack of willpower. But then again, he might also have been simply too stupid and naive; maybe he went there to tell the gang he wants out - and was let out, in the most permanent fashion.

[Sapphire]

Whatever the circumstances, it is a very sad situation.

[XanBcoo]

There's no evidence that the beating had anything to do with the death. The kid could have tried to stay clean but got sucked into the shit and died anyway. Or he could have reacted badly to the beating and gotten more into the gangsta lifestyle, leading to his death.
That's exactly my point.

What, in the end, was the point of physically punishing the dumb kid?

Because from what I see, it was just good for laughs.

[Animeniax]

In the uncle's defense, at least he paid enough attention to the kid to check his facebook page, see he was heading down a bad path, then tried to intervene. Too many parents don't take any interest in what their kids are doing, good or bad.

[XanBcoo]

Ok, sure? But was it effective? Absolutely not.

I like what this commenter said:

the kid deserved to get his ass beat no question, but posting that shit online and humiliating a teenager isnt gonna accomplish anything but making him worse, imagine the harassment he probably got at school after that tape leaked, probably made him feel he had to prove he was tough to all the kids who were fuckin with him, inadvertantly that video could have made him worse and helped lead to his death


We're not discussing whether or not the uncle cared. That's not what this thread is about. The fact that he decided to deal with it in a way that very likely exacerbated the situation supports the idea that corporal punishment is probably not the way to go about fixing things.


Huge illogical assumption incoming!

And no, we can't assume much from the video, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this beating wasn't a one-time occurrence. Like in many low socio-economic African American families (https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=corporal+punishment+african+americans&pbx=1&oq=corporal+punishment+african+&aq=0&aqi=g1g-v1g-j1g-b1&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=0l0l1l26l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=bc72ee4fb68a64f6&biw=1680&bih=915), physical punishment was probably the norm here, and barring mental illness like psychopathy, the entire "might makes right" method is largely a learned behavior. It's not outlandish to say it's likely that the video is an accurate sample of the kid's disciplinary upbringing.

And even if it's not, the video did nothing but humiliate the kid. "Tough love" indeed.

[Assertn]

Decided to actually take a look at this silly thread. Watched this video:

More parents beating the shit out of their children in the 90s:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRKOdBBINY&feature=share
...afterwards I felt more inclined to side with with the parents that discipline over the psychologists. Did you watch the video? The parents even tried to give timeouts instead of spanking, and the kids would openly challenge them. It's easy to sit here and be an armchair parent, but honestly I wouldn't have any better advice for the parents. Kids do this. They make it into a game to see how far they can push you and what they can get away with.

Additionally, it's ridiculous to associate spanking with beating the living shit out of a child. Like someone said before in this thread, spankings aren't meant to inflict pain, they're meant to shock or embarrass the child. I've never been hit by a belt by my parents, but I've been threatened with it, and I knew from spankings that it's a possible occurrence, so I stop being a dick. Worked on me.

Anyway, spanking is just a form of conditioning, and its silly to compare conditioning a child to conditioning an adult. A 2 year old is definitely capable of learned behavior from conditioning, regardless of whether or not he/she has the memory capacity. (You can condition behavior in rodents, for christ's sake.)

Edit:


-Kid gangbangs
-Uncle sees
-Son, I need to talk to you, gangbanging is dangerous, please take care of your life
-Kid denies it
-Uncle keeps talking compassionately until a dialogue opens
-Kid stops gangbanging because he's reasoned out in his head due to talking to a functional reseoning adult
-Kid is alive now
Uncle: Son, gangs are bad. Don't consort with gangs or you might die.
Kid: Holy shit! I had no idea there could be consequences with being affiliated with violent organizations. Thank you for showing me the light, uncle!

[Psyke]

My daughter Rena just turned 3 last month.

While I don't like to encourage using the cane to discipline children, it sometimes seems inevitable, and perhaps more efficient to do so. A large part comes from the culture as well. Asian countries tend to rely on the rod much more freely, as discipline and regimentation still forms the base of the education system.

And personal experience plays a part too. My parents used to cane me, and in hindsight everything worked out fine. I stayed out of trouble, and didn't lose the values taught to me. This thinking also paved the way for me to use a disciplinarian approach when I need to teach Rena.

Granted, I don't like it but the entire process must not just end there. It's harder with the younger ones, but at 3, Rena can understand the rationale of why we need to correct her. If she can understand, for e.g. why it's harzardous to play with electrical switches, there isn't a need to resort to using the cane. If not, the interim "solution" would be to use pain as a demotivator.

I have peers who strongly believe in not using force on children. While I believe it can work, it's still very difficult and depends heavily on the family's background and culture.

[Buffalobiian]

Thanks for the video Assert'n. I never realised that was what Americans meant by spanking. (Hand to butt, used fairly frequently when you don't want something done.)

Mine in contrast, seemed less frequent (but maybe those were just condensed clips), but much more intimidating and painful. In my cases, elastic materials (the handle of a duster (http://www.alivenotdead.com/attachments/2009/03/352636_200903041400018.jpg)) were used. The point would be to induce pain and then act as a deterrent for repeating the "incriminating" behaviour.

I'm not sure how releated my experiences are though, since I was much older than the children in the video.

[XanBcoo]

It's easy to sit here and be an armchair parent, but honestly I wouldn't have any better advice for the parents. Kids do this. They make it into a game to see how far they can push you and what they can get away with.
Please describe your experience with children that gives you clearer insight than "armchair parents" (read: actual parents who choose not to hit their children or professionals who deal with troubled children on a daily basis)


Uncle: Son, gangs are bad. Don't consort with gangs or you might die.
Kid: Holy shit! I had no idea there could be consequences with being affiliated with violent organizations. Thank you for showing me the light, uncle!
More realistic situation
Uncle: Son, I TOUGHT YOU BETTER THAN THIS (no actual teaching done, aside from whippings when the kid does something the parent doesn't like)
Kid: *Dies as a result of his actions and publicly humiliated on the internet*

And to deal with the numerous "it worked on me" posts that have shown up or will show up: I was never punished physically and it worked on me. It's a silly argument and should be left out of the discussion.

[Assertn]

Please describe your experience with children that gives you clearer insight than "armchair parents" (read: actual parents who choose not to hit their children or professionals who deal with troubled children on a daily basis)
I did. With this:

Decided to actually take a look at this silly thread.

Since I don't have any meaningful experience (along with 90% of the other posters in this thread, I choose not to give opinions on how children need to be raised. Instead, I go with the skeptical empiricism position, and explain how its uninformed to pretend to know a blanket approach will work with all child-rearing situations.


More realistic situation
Uncle: Son, I TOUGHT YOU BETTER THAN THIS (no actual teaching done, aside from whippings when the kid does something the parent doesn't like)
Kid: *Dies as a result of his actions and publicly humiliated on the internet*

In all honesty, there really isn't a way to discipline a 16 year old into not being involved in the corrupt underbelly of society. It would probably come down to what caused him to go that route in the first place (maybe he didn't feel loved by his family?), and then confront it.

[Animeniax]

And to deal with the numerous "it worked on me" posts that have shown up or will show up: I was never punished physically and it worked on me. It's a silly argument and should be left out of the discussion.
Well the main argument in this thread is that corporal punishment is all bad, so their evidence that corporal punishment didn't warp them does matter, more so than claims that other forms of discipline also work, which is not in dispute.

[Y]

Decided to actually take a look at this silly thread.

This is what my serious posts have earned. Lord, lord, why hast thou forsaken me!

[XanBcoo]

Since I don't have any meaningful experience (along with 90% of the other posters in this thread, I choose not to give opinions on how children need to be raised. Instead, I go with the skeptical empiricism position, and explain how its uninformed to pretend to know a blanket approach will work with all child-rearing situations.
What part of the numerous studies on child behavior coming from people who work with troubled children on a daily basis isn't empirical?



In all honesty, there really isn't a way to discipline a 16 year old into not being involved in the corrupt underbelly of society. It would probably come down to what caused him to go that route in the first place (maybe he didn't feel loved by his family?), and then confront it.
Possibly because they were whipping him on camera?