Fate/Zero

[Archangel]

http://i.imgur.com/Fi3gc.png

Alternative Title: フェイト／ゼロ

Type: TV
Episodes: 25
Source: Visual Novel
Studio: Ufotable
Genres: Action, Fantasy, Supernatural

Synopsis: War of the Holy Grail - Pursuing the power of the "Holy Grail" which grants a miracle, this is a contest in which seven magi summon seven Heroic Spirits to compete for it. In that battle whose conclusion was postponed three times, now, the fourth war commenced again. Entrusting their dearest wish of victory, the magi joined the battleground called "Fuyuki", but amongst them, there was a man who was always alone, and could not find out the meaning behind his fights. His name was Kotomine Kirei. Not comprehending the guidance of fate, Kirei was lost, and had kept questioning. Why someone like his was given the Command Seals. However, the fate of his fights crossed Kirei's path with a nemesis by chance. That person is - Emiya Kiritsugu. A man who was sterner than anyone else, more merciless than anyone else, and who sought the miracle of the Holy Grail.

Merely recited in fragments in Fate/Stay Night, this is the Fourth War of the Holy Grail 10 years ago. The truth which unfolded behind the battle between Shirou's foster father, Rin's father, and the younger Kotomine Kirei, is finally revealed...

Resources: ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=12376) | AniDB (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=8160) | MyAnimeList (http://myanimelist.net/anime/10087/Fate/zero)

---

Commie - Episode 01 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=249602)

[Archangel]

DAT

FUCKING

EVERYTHING

Those production values are insane! They're going to keep this up on a weekly basis for 24 more episodes??! And the story feels so much colder and grittier, not to mention that having so much out in the open at the very beginning leaves room for character development all around, not just for the protagonist.

I jizzed my pants both mentally and physically, already best show of the season even though i haven't watched any of the others yet.

[TheBladeChild]

Damn....and I have never been more excited for a anime season that I am now. This first episode was amazing. I love how the music during the summoning ceremonies toward the end, came together in one epic moment. Sorta reminded me of the ending of the first episode of Code Geass R2. And this is just one series Im gonna be following. This is gonna be a epic fall. =)

Edit: Saber in that black suit in the end, is awesome!

[Ryllharu]

I'll admit I wasn't super enthusiastic about this considering how the UBW movie turned out (i.e. useless to anyone who hadn't played the game), but this double set of episodes completely reinvigorated my excitement.

From Irisviel to little Rin and Sakura on through to Kiritsugu's obvious surprise of Saber's gender, this delivered.

I too am liking the grittier tone of this series. Nothing wrong with it, and the history of Kiritsugu's methods combined with all the underhanded scheming of...pretty much everyone else certainly lead me to believe this could be an anything-goes Grail War.

Random tidbits:
- Damn, Irisviel is hot. Her presence will easily make up for the apparent lack of female servants this time around.
- Zouken is super evil, and most of his family is evil. How Kariya ever grew up to be that kind of a person is a miracle in and of itself.
- For all his talk about rejecting the idea of blood meaning everything, Waver sure is a douchebag. He treats regular humans as trash all the same.
- Awesome OP.

[fireheart]

Small stuff I'm surprised that Kirei summoned the Assassin servant. Is it just me or is Assassin and Berserker barely in the intro seeing as Kiriya is either alone or surrounded by bugs in the intro, though I'm guessing the shadow with red eyes is Berserker since the little we saw of Berserker in this episode had the same smoke effect.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 01 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=249758)

[David75]

Got a little technical problem, both commie and utw versions have playback issues with VLC/MPC-HC under 7... but also under ubuntu with SMplayer or embeded player.

It's the same machine in all cases, a tad strange, I doubt it comes from the disk and I do not think vlc/mpc/7/ubuntu and players use GPU accelerated decoding.

I'll try with a lower res release.

[Marik]

It's because they're 10-bit releases. Grab CoreAVC 3.0.1, or the latest CCCP, or use VLC Nightly.

[Archangel]

...you're aware that both releases are in 10bit right? And you've updated your codecs?

[David75]

Thanks guys, something new came up I did not know or had the curiosity to check (now I understand why la croisée looked strange... and I did not search for the reason.)
MPC32 internal filter disabled, madvr and it works.

Will watch it later.

Thanks guys!

[Archangel]

I'm surprised you missed it, guess that means this is the first series you'll be following in a while

[Ryllharu]

Just so this is clear, what is the official mod stance on spoilers in regards to this series?

This series is a prequel, but it spoils character development out of Fate/Stay Night (FSN). In addition, FSN obviously spoils this series, as the results and twists of the 4th Grail War are frequently mentioned throughout FSN.

Furthermore, this appears to be pulling much more heavily from the game-FSN than the anime. Fate Zero already has some references to things that were not touched on or inconsistent with the anime version of FSN.

Is this to be treated as its own series, or is it to be assumed a "sequel" to FSN? If the latter, which would allow us to make references to events of FSN, are we using the game (which this seems like it will be more closely following) or the anime?

I know a lot of regular gotwoot posters have played through the FSN game, sometimes multiple times. However, a number of gotwoot posters also have not, or are only partway through.

[Sapphire]

Allow an open discussion of the Fate series. Spoiler warnings at the top, if needed?

[Buffalobiian]

I would treat this as a sequel to the FSN anime.

Spoilers, strictly speaking, are exposing details that aren't covered yet in the anime adaptation - and I would refrain from making any too-revealing comments that are related to the game, since we're also unsure of how much Fate/Zero will expose anyway. The real question for me is whether to consider FSN-Anime and Fate/Zero as related and cross-referenced projects (add UBW movie onto that if you want). My personal stance is that such cross-referencing should be allowed.

[Archangel]

My stance is that everyone that's watching this has already watched the first series, probably the movie as well and around 50% will have completed the whole game thus making this whole hypothetical discussion quite worthless.

That said i'm already anticipating 2 or 3 pages of this crap going on further and dumber tangents as you go along... so yeah, go nuts.

[shinta|hikari]

I think this show is popular enough for people to know that spoilers for the entire universe is possible. Visitors of the thread should be careful, but it would be stupid and unproductive to limit what can be posted because this is a prequel. It would murder discussion quite a bit.

OMFG.

Loli Rin, all masters introduced complete with motivations, gritty atmosphere, a bad ass main character (aka NOT Shirou) and Saber? Best show in a long long while.

@Ryll - I think Kariya became as self-sacrificing as he is precisely because he lived with that bald vampire. It is quite common for children to assertively oppose their parents' failed upbringing by living a completely opposite lifestyle.

[Buffalobiian]

Ryll's post derailed what I actually wanted to post.



O.M.G.. the pheromones!! (Yes, this show is oozing pheromones.. tonnes of it)
It's a shame I have just enough common sense to not hump the screen or something...

Chibi-Rin is great, but Iri's surpassed her in just one episode. Way too likable.

Whimpy-guy must have summon Ghengiskan or something...

[shinta|hikari]

Judging from the preview, Kotomine is going to assassinate Tohsaka in the next episode and form a contract with Gil. He really is a sly bastard. I am not sure if I feel sorry for Tohsaka yet. He seemed like a douche in this episode, but his wife seems to love him enough to endure giving away a daughter, so that must mean something.

[Archangel]

I hardly think Kirei will jump to the kill that early in the game, as far as i can see he's not the man we've seen in the sequel, he isn't nearly as driven probably because he lacks purpose.

I don't have that much to discuss from this first episode alone, there are so many variables... i'm just enjoying the shit out of all of it.

[Kraco]

Unfortunately I don't think we should be talking about the game and only restrict ourselves to the anime FSN and UBW (for whatever the movie is worth). That would be consistent with our general spoiler rules.

Anyway, a really awesome beginning. There wasn't a single character I wouldn't have found interesting. The production values were much better than I dared to expect. Like has been said, the atmosphere is completely different compared to the FSN where most of the masters were those younglings that even if they weren't all literally n00bs still were quite naive and at least inexperienced. Here we have bloody battle scarred veterans, executioners, famous mages, and even the young dude was ruthless, very ambitious, and also had the formal education from London. This is certainly going to be different from FSN and in a good way.

I have to agree with Ryll on Irisviel: She was a real babe. Very beautiful and gentle, yet also intelligent and wise considering how Emiya was listening to her words.

[Buffalobiian]

I thought I'd like Tohsaka's dad, but this through-and-through Magi mentality really makes him unlovable. Especially when you contrast that couple with Emiya/Iri.

We haven't seen any direct interaction between his wife and him at all during this episode, so I really wonder how often he really interacts with her, if at all.


Damn, Irisviel is hot. Her presence will easily make up for the apparent lack of female servants this time around.

Eizenbern's castle must have really good central heating considering her outfit. :) (self note: future house must have good central heating)

[shinta|hikari]

I want to see a few flashbacks on how the Emiya and Iri got together. Must be a really awkward and cute romance.

It's funny how they all seem to think that naivety and idealism make obtaining the grail impossible, but Shirou managed to win in the end, even if he did not use it.

[Archangel]

It's funny how they all seem to think that naivety and idealism make obtaining the grail impossible, but Shirou managed to win in the end, even if he did not use it.

Maybe, but i can't help but feel that this Holy War is on a much higher level than Shirou's ever was.

[Kraco]

The whole scheme was invented by those ages old mage families, so it makes sense they tend to think it's all about tactics, sheer magic power, one-upping the competitors, and other things established mages excel at. Naivety and idealism are, though, thinking outside the box, and thus could be beneficial under right circumstances.

[Buffalobiian]

Maybe, but i can't help but feel that this Holy War is on a much higher level than Shirou's ever was.

I agree with this in that the competitors this time all have some parties backing them up - and all those parties are after different things.

[shinta|hikari]

Shirou's grail war had Saber (though weakened at first, she eventually got her full powers), Hercules and Gilgamesh. I think it was pretty high level too.

[Archangel]

Shirou's grail war had Saber (though weakened at first, she eventually got her full powers), Hercules and Gilgamesh. I think it was pretty high level too.
Check the stats, this Saber is more powerful

Hercules was definitely a plus

Gilgamesh is on this one as well

I can't say anything for certain until this is all over but the feel i get is that this holy war is much more well organized, the mages behind it seem much more powerful and experienced and the servants seem all to be high class as well.

[Buffalobiian]

Shirou's grail war had Saber (though weakened at first, she eventually got her full powers), Hercules and Gilgamesh. I think it was pretty high level too.

It was high level, but it didn't seem like the competitors had that much strategy behind them. It works for simple-minded folks like Shirou - like he said he just needed to win each fight as he encounters them.

Masters are researching the hell out of each other in this one.

[shinta|hikari]

I am not saying that Shirou's grail war was of a higher level, and I do think that competition in this one is tougher, but I don't think that they are far apart in terms of difficulty to win. I only felt opposition when Arch mentioned "much higher" when talking about the difference between the two.

[Ryllharu]

It was high level, but it didn't seem like the competitors had that much strategy behind them. It works for simple-minded folks like Shirou - like he said he just needed to win each fight as he encounters them.

Masters are researching the hell out of each other in this one.
I am not saying that Shirou's grail war was of a higher level, and I do think that competition in this one is tougher, but I don't think that they are far apart in terms of difficulty to win. I only felt opposition when Arch mentioned "much higher" when talking about the difference between the two.I think I have to go with Arch on this one, based on what Kraco pointed out.

The 5th Grail War had powerful Servants, but the mages were very naive and idealist compared to this one. We didn't see years of preparation with the majority of the the competitors, much of it was improvised from the moment the Servants were summoned. The 4th War in contrast, all the mages we know about about prepared at least a year in advance, often used underhanded tactics to get in, or were so powerful they were chosen by the Grail at a remarkably early time.

Even with that, or in response to that, a number of the 4th War mages have already admitted how much further they are going to go to ensure their victory. In the 5th War, only Rin and Ilya prepared ahead of time. I suppose that the Matou's did so as well, but only by Zouken's words concerning Sakura and his intentions to skip this round before Kariya offered himself.

[shinta|hikari]

Preparation is important, but raw power is vital as well. Preparation is not enough to kill Hercules or Gilgamesh. Winning is the goal of the war, and without beating those two powerhouse servants, you won't win. That is the reason I believe that this war and the succeeding war are not much different in terms of winning. It does not matter if most of the enemies are weak. As long as 1 or 2 monsters are there, victory is hard to get.

[Ryllharu]

Not getting killed by your own Servant right off the bat is important too. 5th War Caster, who had a master who was never even given a name.

Raw power doesn't matter when you're not wary enough to control your own servant, or when you summon one that is too strong for you, or has conflicting ideals. Which is why Kiritsugu expressed concern about summoning "Arthur" given his chosen methods of combat.

Wouldn't be much use if you were plenty strong to summon a powerful hero, but had to blow through Command spells to get them to listen. At least some of the mages are thinking about this in the 4th War. Even Rin didn't think about who she could get, she only thought about getting someone strong.

[RyougaZell]

Animation was beautiful. If this keeps up all season... wow.

I don't quite remember FSN... why did a Holy Grail war took place so soon? They kept saying here it takes place every 60 years.

And about the episode lenght... it this considered episodes 1 + 2? Was this just a special ocassion? Or will all episodes have this lenght?

[Buffalobiian]

Animation was beautiful. If this keeps up all season... wow.

I don't quite remember FSN... why did a Holy Grail war took place so soon? They kept saying here it takes place every 60 years.

And about the episode lenght... it this considered episodes 1 + 2? Was this just a special ocassion? Or will all episodes have this lenght?

I'll bet a good amount on that this is just a bonus big Ep1. Next week will be ep2 at 30 minutes.

Regarding the animation, I don't think FSN 2006 was done by ufotable neither.

[shinta|hikari]

@Ryll - Like I said, preparation is important too. Illya had tons of command spells to control Hercules due to her family's preparation, and that made the team monstrous. I agree with you, but that does not make Shirou's war less difficult to win.

[Archangel]

Animation was beautiful. If this keeps up all season... wow.

I don't quite remember FSN... why did a Holy Grail war took place so soon? They kept saying here it takes place every 60 years.

And about the episode lenght... it this considered episodes 1 + 2? Was this just a special ocassion? Or will all episodes have this lenght?

Lets hope so

Because nobody won this one

Special episode, the rest will be of normal length

[fireheart]

@Ryll - Like I said, preparation is important too. Illya had tons of command spells to control Hercules due to her family's preparation, and that made the team monstrous. I agree with you, but that does not make Shirou's war less difficult to win.

She did? I thought everyone only get 3 command spells to use and the reason their team was so monstrous was because Illya had a ton of mana so she had no problems controlling Hercules.

In Shiros case it's kinda like an RPG where he got stronger before meeting and fighting the stronger oppositions compared to this war where they've all been preparing, so I'd say if it had been Shiro in the 4th war he'd probably have lost pretty early since I'm guessing the people wouldn't have shown him that much compassion. But there is one thing that I can say with 100% certainty that made Shiros war a little easier to win, there was one less master right from the start to fight compared to this one.

[David75]

Shiro was a pussy, but with endurance from a very good trump card, and had another in store.
I'm a little curious about who his parents really are, his background and all and I hope we'll get something about him.
I thought the guy giving the relic to the student had a hairstyle and body language reminding me of Shirou, but that must be some kind of illusion.

Regarding production quality, it really felt like a movie. But somehow it also felt very artificial, probably the way eyes are so expressionless or something.

I admit I felt a chill down my spine when I heard, then saw Saber. Even writing it still produces some effect.
That's how much of a Saber fan I am and I did appreciate the fanservice.

[Archangel]

Lol, fanservice is not really the word.

Then again... brb, posting suit saber in the fetish thread.

[Xelbair]

Having read the Fate/Zero novels i want to spoil the shit so bad for you.. but i'll hold back. I'll just point out some minor details that they didn't show(just small 'flavour' stuff, not spoilers).
In Einzberen Castle the stained glasses in the chapel have shown the scenes of Einzberen working on Holy Grail - just to show their obsession for it.
Archibald's title (Lord El Meloi) is a title for very strong and prominent magus i i recall correctly.
Waver is a pussy, that's a fact.
And guys - there is still one more master/servant combo left.
Waver's Servant is badass.

[Ryllharu]

Sad part is your spoiler is was wrong Xel. Wrong Servant.

Another victory for reading comprehension!

[Buffalobiian]

@Ryll - Like I said, preparation is important too. Illya had tons of command spells to control Hercules due to her family's preparation, and that made the team monstrous. I agree with you, but that does not make Shirou's war less difficult to win.

Illya had:

-A monstrous magic circuit
-A monstrous command spell that covered her whole body

I'm sure everybody only has 3 command spells, regardless of size. Berserker class drains your magic in order to sustain them, and that's the reason for her success - not because of additional command spell.

[shinta|hikari]

Indeed you are right. It was a full body magic circuit/command spell.

[EpyonNext]

So question. Will I be lost in the sauce with any background information if I have not seen FSN?

[shinta|hikari]

Your enjoyment would be reduced by more than half, I think.

[EpyonNext]

That's pretty significant. Time to hunt me down a FSN batch.

[shinta|hikari]

Or play the game. It's much better, and will give you a lot more information after completing all 3 paths.

[Kraco]

Waver is a pussy, that's a fact.

At least he had enough guts to steal from his professor and enter a deadly competition out of his own volition. He can't be all wretched, even though he probably would have fit better the next war, not this one.

[Buffalobiian]

At least he had enough guts to steal from his professor and enter a deadly competition out of his own volition. He can't be all wretched, even though he probably would have fit better the next war, not this one.

I find it very strange that the entire Magi Association hasn't tried to hunt him down. I wasn't sure if the Archbald guy had the organisation's backing, or if they aren't actually lending him any help.

[fireheart]

I find it very strange that the entire Magi Association hasn't tried to hunt him down. I wasn't sure if the Archbald guy had the organisation's backing, or if they aren't actually lending him any help.

Well he did get chosen to participate in the war regardlessly and the war is supervised by the church so maybe that grants him immunity.

[Xelbair]

At least he had enough guts to steal from his professor and enter a deadly competition out of his own volition. He can't be all wretched, even though he probably would have fit better the next war, not this one.
You'll see later.


I find it very strange that the entire Magi Association hasn't tried to hunt him down. I wasn't sure if the Archbald guy had the organisation's backing, or if they aren't actually lending him any help.
why? they don't resolve conflicts that way - in fact, they would just watch them two resolve the conflict( Waver vs Archibald). Magi Association never interferes unless: 1) they want to get someone alive(who is really strong as a magus) to medically examine him(ie dissect him and put him into different jars) 2) they stop magus from revealing magic to general public.
Magi Association dosen't care by the 'route' taken by magus, it just want to see the finished products of researches.

[Idealistic]

ANN has F/Z listed as just 12 episodes so I'm hoping it's 12 40+min episodes.

EDIT@below, ah i see. Well, I also hope this ep didn't count as 1 AND 2.

[Kraco]

On the other hand, Mahou showtime lists at the moment 25 eps. As a general rule you shouldn't trust ANN in anything episodes related. Just read it for news and staff info. We will eventually see the truth.

[Buffalobiian]

You'll see later.


why? they don't resolve conflicts that way - in fact, they would just watch them two resolve the conflict( Waver vs Archibald). Magi Association never interferes unless: 1) they want to get someone alive(who is really strong as a magus) to medically examine him(ie dissect him and put him into different jars) 2) they stop magus from revealing magic to general public.
Magi Association dosen't care by the 'route' taken by magus, it just want to see the finished products of researches.

Good point, I forgot about them operating like that.

[shinta|hikari]

@Xel - I know the feeling of wanting to spoil stuff since you've read the source material, but since this is not just related stuff like the FSN game or anime but the actual light novel you are getting info from, can you avoid giving hints? It may not seem like much to you, but some can deduce quite a bit from a small clue and that can consequently reduce the enjoyment of the show.

[RyougaZell]

ANN has F/Z listed as just 12 episodes so I'm hoping it's 12 40+min episodes.

EDIT@below, ah i see. Well, I also hope this ep didn't count as 1 AND 2.

Even RandomC, a fansite, is better source. They list 25 episodes.

http://randomc.net/2011/09/20/fall-2011-preview/#fate-zero

ANN is full of misinformation and hypocrite writers.

[fireheart]

why? they don't resolve conflicts that way - in fact, they would just watch them two resolve the conflict( Waver vs Archibald). Magi Association never interferes unless: 1) they want to get someone alive(who is really strong as a magus) to medically examine him(ie dissect him and put him into different jars) 2) they stop magus from revealing magic to general public.
Magi Association dosen't care by the 'route' taken by magus, it just want to see the finished products of researches.

Is that from the game? Because I don't remember them talking that much about the Magi Association in the anime or movie

[Xelbair]

Is that from the game? Because I don't remember them talking that much about the Magi Association in the anime or movie
Game as far as i remember, there was a small bit about them in anime i think too, i think that Rin stated that in early episodes.


@Xel - I know the feeling of wanting to spoil stuff since you've read the source material, but since this is not just related stuff like the FSN game or anime but the actual light novel you are getting info from, can you avoid giving hints? It may not seem like much to you, but some can deduce quite a bit from a small clue and that can consequently reduce the enjoyment of the show.

The only hint i couldn't stop myself from posting was about waver's servant, don't worry - i'll just post some small minor flavour details. Plus even if someone deduces something correctly i'll refrain from comment. Character related stuff is based on the current ep and the part of the novel that episode covered.

[Kraco]

Is that from the game? Because I don't remember them talking that much about the Magi Association in the anime or movie

I believe the Magi Association, and also the church branch, and consistent throughout all the Type-Moon stories. So, the information will accumulate.

[fireheart]

Game as far as i remember, there was a small bit about them in anime i think too, i think that Rin stated that in early episodes.

Ahh ok


I believe the Magi Association, and also the church branch, and consistent throughout all the Type-Moon stories. So, the information will accumulate.

Can't say I remember much being mentioned about the Magi Association nor the church in the anime which doesn't exist or in Kara no Kyoukai, maybe they've mentioned how they work and I just forgot.

[Kraco]

Can't say I remember much being mentioned about the Magi Association nor the church in the anime which doesn't exist or in Kara no Kyoukai, maybe they've mentioned how they work and I just forgot.

Well, the key word in your reply is "much". They certainly haven't talked that much about it in any of the anime or game I've seen. But that only makes every bit count.

[Yukimura]

Holy Crap! After watching the first ep I can definitively say I actively care about watching an anime series again, I think it's been over a year since I felt this way about anything*. A bunch of pro magicians duking it out with no main character status/plot armor for the inexperienced but idealistic young character. I don't know what more I could ask for.


Loved the info dump provided in this ep. As a non game player but avid fan of a well fleshed out universe I couldn't be happier. I think I might even try and keep track of all the lore I pick up in this show that ties into stuff I remember from the first series.

EDIT
* anything = any anime series that I sampled over the time period in question.

[Archangel]

Holy Crap! After watching the first ep I can definitively say I actively care about watching an anime series again, I think it's been over a year since I felt this way about anything.
That's... kind of depressing. Glad to have you on board though.

[Alhuin]

Holy Crap! After watching the first ep I can definitively say I actively care about watching an anime series again, I think it's been over a year since I felt this way about anything.

I feel the same way, though in addition to just not being that interested in most of the series, I also just didn't have the time. This will be one of two series (the other being Shana) that I will be following (until the end) since... I think FMA:Brotherhood.

[Marik]

Fate/Zero is being split between two seasons.


The November issue of Kadokawa Shoten's Monthly Newtype magazine is reporting this Saturday that the Blu-ray Disc box release of the Fate/Zero anime series will have the "original edition" of episodes with scenes cut from the television broadcast. The Blu-ray Disc box release will be split between the two scheduled seasons of the anime; the first 13-episode season will air from October to December, and the second will start from episode #14 next April. The end of the Holy Grail War will be depicted in the anime in June.

Producer Atsuhiro Iwakami explained that the staff decided on the two-season split to maintain quality across the entire anime.

Fate/Zero BD Box Release to Add Cut Scenes (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-10-06/fate/zero-bd-box-release-to-add-cut-scenes)

[Archangel]

...well that's bulshit.

[Yukimura]

The Fuck.... The worst part is I'm not even surprised, just annoyed that Japan strikes again.

[Kraco]

Since it's to maintain the quality, it suggests they would have rather begun to air the show a season later than this autumn. However, something prompted them to began already now and thus the undermanned studio can't animate fast enough. I'm not the most impatient person in the world, but still I suppose this is more to my liking than not airing the show at all until next spring.

[Idealistic]

I don't get how splitting it up will improve the animation?? It's not like they get more time to spend on the first 13 episodes or do they? Because it's already started airing.

[RyougaZell]

I don't get how splitting it up will improve the animation?? It's not like they get more time to spend on the first 13 episodes or do they? Because it's already started airing.

Maybe its like with Madoka... apparently they were animating the episodes on the week.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm totally fine with these. It happens frequently enough anyway. The only thing potentially bad about this is the possibility of a recap ep14, but recap eps also happen regardless of breaks anyway.@Idealistic: it's not so much about maintaining the quality of the first 13 episodes as it is about the LAST 13 eps. The break gives them time to get head start on that.

[Kraco]

Yeah, and it's entirely plausible they started working on the first episodes a long time ago, not a couple of weeks before the first episode aired. I haven't paid particular attention, but it's possible Ufotable is working on other shows as well, further reducing how many frames they can draw in a week for F/Z. Furthermore, they don't need to work in a strictly chronological order either. They could be animating any scenes from the first 13 episodes now, as long as they ensure the eps can air in a chronological order. In fact that would be the most efficient solution theoretically, just like it is with live action movies.

[TheBladeChild]

episode 2 by UTW(720p):

http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=251269

[Alhuin]

Wow...
I can't even find the words to express...

Except, I want more.

Also, ending segment was pretty cool, with all the servants in their "original" states, I think.

[Buffalobiian]

Saber was a lot more emotional than I expected her to be. Then again, Kiritsugu actually has an ideology and a goal for her to bounce ideas off. Or perhaps she became what she was in the 5th war after this one.

Kind of weird how Assassin couldn't detect the presence of his prey or his prey's protectors.

I had totally forgotten Alexander the Great, partly due to my mental image of him being more sleight in physical build.

[Kraco]

Kind of weird how Assassin couldn't detect the presence of his prey or his prey's protectors.

I guess he was the tool kind of an assassin who trusted his master's words and commands. So, it was not a question of not being able to detect Archer but rather not expecting him to attack so devastatingly. I have no doubt he would have fared much better if Kirei hadn't sent him to die with such orders. It'll be interesting to see how Kirei planned it all out.

Seeing Ilya like this makes her fate in my favourite FSN route even more unbearable...

[David75]

They sure are piling awesome promises. They sure do not fear PEGI (or the like) ratings.
I just hope they do not sabotage it in the end.

I think I can understand the huge mess happening at the end of this war.
It should be an incredibly flashy and action packed show, with nice visual effects and I hope a nice story to support all of that.

[fireheart]

Since Random Curiosity gets mentioned around here heads up there are spoilers in their impressions on the second episode... shouldn't have read it.

[Archangel]

You shouldn't fear Archer? Ha! I guess Kirei didn't like what he got in the raffle lottery and is now looking for a replacement. Still... seems a tad wasteful, and i can't help but wonder how he's explaining this to Tohsaka senior.

I noticed the Gate of Babylon is golden, i guess the grail's curse is what turned it magenta. Makes me wonder if this Archer is more or less powerful than its fsn counterpart.

Bluebeard...? I don't get it, and the ending didn't help either. Just as well though, means i have one more thing to look forward to.

[David75]

Bluebeard...? I don't get it, and the ending didn't help either. Just as well though, means i have one more thing to look forward to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard
Might help understanding.
I guess Caster did tell that name as it was the nearest example of his appearance on earth, or the being nearer to his state of mind

[Ryllharu]

Bluebeard, the folktale rumored to be inspired by the
[possible spoiler, but easily researched from folklore about Bluebeard]
13th century serial killer Gilles de Rais or other famous murderers from Brittany/Brenton in France.

As wikipedia tells us, de Rais murdered children in a similar way to what we saw here:

[The boy] was pampered and dressed in better clothes than he had ever known. The evening began with a large meal and heavy drinking, particularly hippocras, which acted as a stimulant. The boy was then taken to an upper room to which only Gilles and his immediate circle were admitted. There he was confronted with the true nature of his situation. The shock thus produced on the boy was an initial source of pleasure for Gilles.[close potential spoilers]

Pretty much exactly what we saw.

He was also (allegedly) big into demon summoning and alchemy, using the kids for components or offerings, so that explain the Cthulu intonations.

That particular individual was hanged and burned, so I'm guessing that is who he is. Calling himself Bluebeard was a huge hint, though the greater mystery is why he knew the name. Rider was reading up on history and cartography to catch up. How did Caster know this already?

edit: David beat me to it.

edit 2: So that really only leaves Berserker and Lancer for the Servant identities we don't know. Quite the change from the 5th Grail War, where everything was kept so secret.

[Buffalobiian]

Both Casters are crazy killers of some kind. Did no one care to summon Merlin or something?

Not that I mind. Creepy, obsessed people are good fun as long as you know they're behind a screen and not your back.

One thing that's been revealed in FZ that wasn't apparent in FSN was that one can choose the attribute that you want your servant to be classed in. How that works with the "one servant per class" I have no idea - perhaps first-in, first-serve?

It does hint at why Rin's servant was an Archer class despite his main fighting style being so un-archer-like. The catalyst determines the hero. The incantation add-on (if any) determines the class (if it can be applied to the hero). I just can't remember if Tokiomi specifically requested an Archer class.

[Ryllharu]

Both Casters are crazy killers of some kind. Did no one care to summon Merlin or something?

One thing that's been revealed in FZ that wasn't apparent in FSN was that one can choose the attribute that you want your servant to be classed in. How that works with the "one servant per class" I have no idea - perhaps first-in, first-serve?

It does hint at why Rin's servant was an Archer class despite his main fighting style being so un-archer-like. The catalyst determines the hero. The incantation add-on (if any) determines the class (if it can be applied to the hero). I just can't remember if Tokiomi specifically requested an Archer class.
Caster of the 5th War is a tragic figure. She wasn't a particularly crazy killer, she was just very very devoted to the point of becoming a killer. That pretty much explains what happened to her in the end.

I thought it was more of a revelation that you can pick which hero you get. I took Zouken's words to mean only that you could actively choose to take Berserker alone so long as you were the first to get it.

If I remember right, 4th War Archer was classified as Archer because the way he uses his noble phantasm doesn't fit with any other class. He could really come in as any of the classes that aren't Caster. Why waste one of the other slots?

[Archangel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard
Might help understanding.
I guess Caster did tell that name as it was the nearest example of his appearance on earth, or the being nearer to his state of mind

Kind of disappointing how i never heard of him, though i guess that's what you can expect from a shitty summoner like Killy Mckill or whatever his name is.


One thing that's been revealed in FZ that wasn't apparent in FSN was that one can choose the attribute that you want your servant to be classed in. How that works with the "one servant per class" I have no idea - perhaps first-in, first-serve?

It does hint at why Rin's servant was an Archer class despite his main fighting style being so un-archer-like. The catalyst determines the hero. The incantation add-on (if any) determines the class (if it can be applied to the hero). I just can't remember if Tokiomi specifically requested an Archer class.

You can't, not for certain anyway. What you can do is make an educated guess since you'll be aiming to summon particular characters and should already know what roles they would fit the better, but it's quite possible they could fit some other role as well. Emiya and Hercules could have easily had been a saber, just how Gilgamesh could have probably rolled any other knight class as well.

[fireheart]

That particular individual was hanged and burned, so I'm guessing that is who he is. Calling himself Bluebeard was a huge hint, though the greater mystery is why he knew the name. Rider was reading up on history and cartography to catch up. How did Caster know this already?

I'm not 100% sure on this and don't have the old FSN episodes anymore but I think Saber said that the grail kinda filled them up with information about the current era. As for why Rider was reading up well I guess he rather get information from several sources since I doubt the grail gives them every little detail about everything in the world since they died.

[Buffalobiian]

Emiya and Hercules could have easily had been a saber, just how Gilgamesh could have probably rolled any other knight class as well.
Well yeah, that part was integral to what I was saying (how you can choose). There's no point in choosing if your hero can only be one particular class. As you and others have pointed out, there's really nothing backing that up though besides some coincidences that can more readily be explained by hero artefacts rather than incantation tweaks.

[David75]

Well, BlueBeard really is from French Folklore, no wonder it's not particularly known anywhere else. It's not that famous either. I'm quite surprised he is named in anime.
But maybe there's more fame to it that I know of, after all wikipedia shows many variations from famous European writers theater plays, films... so it might be Fate authors had access to such material.

Regarding Caster and his master, I guess we're all waiting for the time when Caster kills his master. It's pretty obvious that master is a funny prey to play with for Caster. I wonder if the kid is smart enough to understand that and will use a command spell to protect himself from that end... But even then, I feel Caster smart enough to find roundabout ways to kill him or have him killed in horrible ways.

[Buffalobiian]

Well, BlueBeard really is from French Folklore, no wonder it's not particularly known anywhere else. It's not that famous either. I'm quite surprised he is named in anime.
But maybe there's more fame to it that I know of, after all wikipedia shows many variations from famous European writers theater plays, films... so it might be Fate authors had access to such material.

Regarding Caster and his master, I guess we're all waiting for the time when Caster kills his master. It's pretty obvious that master is a funny prey to play with for Caster. I wonder if the kid is smart enough to understand that and will use a command spell to protect himself from that end... But even then, I feel Caster smart enough to find roundabout ways to kill him or have him killed in horrible ways.

I dunno man.. there's so many kids out there to kill, but so few who would understand a serial killer. The ED suggests that Bluebeard wasn't the most socially indifferent type. But I can see where you're coming from. This could be the biggest set-up for despair that he could plan.

Only issue here is that all these heroes are in the war to win. It's not so often that you'll come across such an accommodating master for the likes of Bluebeard.

[Ryllharu]

Well, BlueBeard really is from French Folklore, no wonder it's not particularly known anywhere else. It's not that famous either. I'm quite surprised he is named in anime.
But maybe there's more fame to it that I know of, after all wikipedia shows many variations from famous European writers theater plays, films... so it might be Fate authors had access to such material.Anyone who has a good book fairy tales that has not been purified to be politically correct will have Bluebeard in it. At least an English language one. Archie is just woefully unread as usual.

[Buffalobiian]

Ahh..

While I was watching that episode, I heard the name Bluebeard, but confused with another character until I wiki-ed "Bluebeard". Then I tried to identify who I confused him with.

Turns out it was Rumpelstiltskin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpelstiltskin)

[Archangel]

Well yeah, that part was integral to what I was saying (how you can choose). There's no point in choosing if your hero can only be one particular class. As you and others have pointed out, there's really nothing backing that up though besides some coincidences that can more readily be explained by hero artefacts rather than incantation tweaks.
Sure there is, particular servant classes have their own bonuses such as Archer's ability to reside in the world without a master or Berserker's madness enhancement.


Regarding Caster and his master, I guess we're all waiting for the time when Caster kills his master. It's pretty obvious that master is a funny prey to play with for Caster. I wonder if the kid is smart enough to understand that and will use a command spell to protect himself from that end... But even then, I feel Caster smart enough to find roundabout ways to kill him or have him killed in horrible ways.
Will he though? Seems awfully unpractical, the last one who tried to pull one of those was almost left for dead on the side of the road.

I can totally see him planning to do such a thing just moments before obtaining the grail though, that would maximize the fuck out of his despair.

[Kraco]

It's not like Killy Mckill, a complete amateur summoner without any artifacts, would be likely to summon some great figure from history/legends known the world over.

[Archangel]

It's not like Killy Mckill, a complete amateur summoner without any artifacts, would be likely to summon some great figure from history/legends known the world over.
...yeah, that's what i'm sayin. I'm guessing the "artifact" used here was simply blood and murder.

[fireheart]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there a couple of servants that couldn't be anything other than that class like Saber(Arturia)?

[Archangel]

Taking into account her skills and stats... i think she could have rolled Rider and Berserker as well. That said, if she IS summoned then she'll most likely become Saber.

[Buffalobiian]

There's no point in choosing if your hero can only be one particular class.

Sure there is, particular servant classes have their own bonuses such as Archer's ability to reside in the world without a master or Berserker's madness enhancement.

What? I think you read me wrong.

[David75]

Regarding Kotomine and Assassin's death.
Well, I can perfectly see a plot where Assassin's death serves a role for Tosaka and Kotomine.

Assassin dead, other masters would think he's out of the game, when he in fact will target masters. He's highly train in many arts as Kiritsugu stated, so even without a servant, he can clearly have the upper hand in any situation when a master isn't protected by his servant.

This idea isn't really in line with what we know of archer in the game and FSN anime, mainly because we do not know what will happen with Tosaka. Or it might only work with Tosaka...

[Xelbair]

You shouldn't fear Archer? Ha! I guess Kirei didn't like what he got in the raffle lottery and is now looking for a replacement. Still... seems a tad wasteful, and i can't help but wonder how he's explaining this to Tohsaka senior.

I noticed the Gate of Babylon is golden, i guess the grail's curse is what turned it magenta. Makes me wonder if this Archer is more or less powerful than its fsn counterpart.

Bluebeard...? I don't get it, and the ending didn't help either. Just as well though, means i have one more thing to look forward to.
Kirei said that there is no need to fear him... because he would get obliterated so soon that there would be no time left for fear, i think.

[fireheart]

Taking into account her skills and stats... i think she could have rolled Rider and Berserker as well. That said, if she IS summoned then she'll most likely become Saber.

Have a faint memory of her saying she couldn't be any other classes so checked the typemoon wiki and according to it
Arturia is limited to the class of Saber, unlike many heroes that can be summoned into different classes, such as Hercules, who can be any class except Caster

[Idealistic]

I forgot if it was mentioned in FSN if the servants retain their memories? Was wondering if Saber remembers everything that happened in the 4th war and if she was Shirou's father's servant or not.

[Buffalobiian]

I forgot if it was mentioned in FSN if the servants retain their memories? Was wondering if Saber remembers everything that happened in the 4th war and if she was Shirou's father's servant or not.

In FSN, Saber talked with Shirou about her former master Kiritsugu, yes.

[Ryllharu]

Only Saber (Arturia) remembers past Grail Wars during which she has been summoned. She's a unique case.

[fireheart]

Only Saber (Arturia) remembers past Grail Wars during which she has been summoned. She's a unique case.

Do you have a source for that? It just seems hard to know since Arturia is the only servant we've seen that's been summoned twice.

Edit: Never mind I found it, probably wouldn't have been able to get that from the information in FSN or rather never reflected on it.

[Archangel]

She did remember it, but i dont think she was suposed to.

I guess her legend is so closely attached to excalibur that she's saber exclusive? Or was that part of the deal she made with the grail?

[Buffalobiian]

Do you have a source for that? It just seems hard to know since Arturia is the only servant we've seen that's been summoned twice.

Edit: Never mind I found it, probably wouldn't have been able to get that from the information in FSN or rather never reflected on it.

It's covered in the FSN anime - just not fully explained (or so I thought anyway).

[fireheart]

I guess her legend is so closely attached to excalibur that she's saber exclusive? Or was that part of the deal she made with the grail?

I'm guessing it's because of Excalibur and a couple of other facts, apparently to be viable to become Berserker the Hero in question have to had gone berserk at some point. She doesn't exactly have a lance, bow or mount to use as noble phantasms (that I know of) and definitely not a spell caster nor the assassin type so that pretty much only leaves her with only Saber.


It's covered in the FSN anime - just not fully explained (or so I thought anyway).

Yeah when I read why she remembers it made sense and the anime touches upon these facts but I don't think they ever made any kind of line between the different facts. On the plus side I get more of the ending now.

[Alhuin]

I thought Gilgamesh was another servant that remembered past wars. He at least remembered Saber in FSN, saying they had a "relationship".

[Buffalobiian]

I thought Gilgamesh was another servant that remembered past wars. He at least remembered Saber in FSN, saying they had a "relationship".

Gilgamesh is from the 4th war and survived during the ten years in between. Note that the 4th war summoned Archer Gilgamesh while the 5th war summoned Archer Emiya Shirou.

[Alhuin]

I was aware of the archer differences, however I was unaware that he simply survived for ten years. I thought he was re-summoned by the church dude (his name eludes me at the moment unfortunately). That would make sense why he would remember then, haha.

[Buffalobiian]

I was aware of the archer differences, however I was unaware that he simply survived for ten years. I thought he was re-summoned by the church dude (his name eludes me at the moment unfortunately). That would make sense why he would remember then, haha.

Yeah, I mentioned the archer difference with the purpose of illustrating that you only summon one class per war.

PS: I just noticed 4th war Lancer has two lances.. hmm....

[KrayZ33]

I'm not sure anymore

but didn't Saber say she remembers what happened in the previous war because of what she did at the end of it?

or was it because the summoning was incomplete?

[Buffalobiian]

I'm not sure anymore

but didn't Saber say she remembers what happened in the previous war because of what she did at the end of it?

I really can't rememeber was anime-covered and what was game-covered anymore. Didn't want to plaster this place with game-spoiler tags, but since there seems to be a demand for this little tidbit of knowledge, especially to abridge the two series, here goes:

[explanation about the servant summoning system that may not be covered in the anime follows]

People of the past have ascended to Hero status due to their deeds. Such heroes simply participate in the wars when summoned since the Grail gives them an incentive to do so. (or not, depending on the circumstances..). They retain the memories of their previous lives, but not of any previous war or summoning.

Saber made a pact with the World as she was dying; she would be allowed to try and obtain the Holy Grail to grant her wish. In exchange, if she succeeds, she will finish her life and become a Counter Guardian after her death, a sub-category of a Heroic Spirit at the service of the World. Because of this pact, she is in fact still alive and "frozen" in her dying state when she travels through time to obtain the Grail, and is summoned as a Servant in the Grail War. After each Holy Grail War, she goes back into her dying body, unless she wins or gives up, ready for the next Holy Grail War.This is also the reason she is able to retain her memories of the events of Fate/Zero, something a Servant should not be able to do.

(Taken from Type-moon wikia, as well as a lot of help/memory jogging from Xelbair.)

[/END explanation. Highlight space to read]

[Archangel]

So i just noticed that Berserker is a knight... in front of a lake. Really? Are they honestly making it that obvious? I'll be slightly annoyed if they are so here's hoping it's a red herring.

[Buffalobiian]

So i just noticed that Berserker is a knight... in front of a lake. Really? Are they honestly making it that obvious? I'll be slightly annoyed if they are so here's hoping it's a red herring.

It's not that obvious to me. I don't really have any concrete idea on who you're talking about, though I only know of one knight who is associated with a lake.. which makes it even more confusing.

[Archangel]

Not knowing the original source anything i say can't really be constituted a spoiler can it?

Anyway, just google knight and lake if you're that interested.

[fireheart]

So i just noticed that Berserker is a knight... in front of a lake. Really? Are they honestly making it that obvious? I'll be slightly annoyed if they are so here's hoping it's a red herring.

Didn't actually notice that until you mentioned it... if it's true then it feels even weirder that Berserker is hardly in the opening considering the hint in the ending unless they tell us his identity soon.


It's not that obvious to me. I don't really have any concrete idea on who you're talking about, though I only know of one knight who is associated with a lake.. which makes it even more confusing.

If it is who Arch is saying then you're better off not knowing.

[Archangel]

It does seem strange... i mean, what's the point of downplaying it in the opening if you're going to make it blatantly obvious in the ending?

[kaniskii]

I haven't watched the Fate/Stay anime, or played... so can I watch this and then watch the fate/stay anime after? will that give me a good understanding of the series throughout, or are there references in this one that I would appreciate if i watch the first series first.

I think it would be cool to watch this and then watch the fate/stay all the way through, but if this is made as a prequel-sequel, with previous knowledge is needed, then I'll watch the fate/stay first.

thanks

[Kraco]

I'd imagine you'd have no troubles watching this before the older FSN anime. You'd have a bit different perspective than the rest of us, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. However, reading this thread will give you spoilers since talking about the old anime isn't forbidden.

[Archangel]

You'd probably be better off watching fsn first.

[Xelbair]

I'm not sure anymore

but didn't Saber say she remembers what happened in the previous war because of what she did at the end of it?

or was it because the summoning was incomplete?
It was just Rin's guess about 'uncompleted' summoning(which in fact was perfectly fine).


I haven't watched the Fate/Stay anime, or played... so can I watch this and then watch the fate/stay anime after? will that give me a good understanding of the series throughout, or are there references in this one that I would appreciate if i watch the first series first.

I think it would be cool to watch this and then watch the fate/stay all the way through, but if this is made as a prequel-sequel, with previous knowledge is needed, then I'll watch the fate/stay first.

thanks
I think that you should watch FS/N first, because a lot of things won't get explained.



Have a faint memory of her saying she couldn't be any other classes so checked the typemoon wiki and according to it
Typemoon wikia is very unreliable. Very, very unreliable.

[Buffalobiian]

@Kaniskii: I'd watch FSN first because (1) it will expain things in more detail than here, and (2) Fate/Zero looks like it will be better, so "downgrading" would suck.

[fireheart]

Typemoon wikia is very unreliable. Very, very unreliable.

Does it really matter as I already had a faint memory of it being said and only used it to check if I was remembering it right or not since I wasn't about to download all of FSN and watch through it to find that conversation so I'd still say the same thing just without the quote. Unless you know anything else being said in the game about Arturia being able to get summoned as any other class other than Saber.

[Xelbair]

Nope, i just said that to warn people - if you want to read deeper into the story, there is really much false information on it.

[Archangel]

@Kaniskii: I'd watch FSN first because (1) it will expain things in more detail than here, and (2) the Fate/Zero anime looks like it will be better than the fsn anime, so "downgrading" would suck.

Fixed for accuracy.

[shinta|hikari]

@Kaniskii: I'd watch FSN first because (1) it will expain things in more detail than here, and (2) Fate/Zero looks like it will be better, so "downgrading" would suck.

I think it was pretty clear with that. You don't watch a VN. You play or read it.

[kaniskii]

got it, ill go burn through F/S first then. thanks for the input!

[Buffalobiian]

Fixed for accuracy.

Thanks Ark. Unfortunately I can't summon the effort to add anime onto the end of everything you talk about Fate/Zero to differentiate it from the novel. ;)

[Archangel]

Yeah yeah i missed the "watch", sue me.

Anyway the point is that the anime was pretty meh compared to the original novel so you noobs out there should check it out

[Idealistic]

Why no one post?! I had to search for it myself! :mad:

Episode 3 by Commie (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=252823)

[Archangel]

Why no one post?! I had to search for it myself! :mad:

Episode 3 by Commie (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=252823)
Because nobody gives a flying fuck about Commie

[Alhuin]

Because nobody gives a flying fuck about Commie

UTW - Episode 3 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=252872)

EDIT: That suit and them legs. Oh, and Kiritsugu is a bastard.

[Kraco]

Oh, and Kiritsugu is a bastard.

I deem he's an even more broken case than Shirou. I'd also guess he knew already this woman before he met the Einzberns, and likely they haven't more than some battlefield romance. However, like Iris said, Kiritsugu can't stomach a happy life. It's the very same thing that haunted Shirou. So, even if you say he's a bastard, he's still a pitiful case and hurts himself the most.

This show has quite a stylish relaxed pace. I admit it's a bit annoying when watched weekly, because fights are so slow to come and happen, but otherwise it's a nice difference compared to the usual shounen shows. Rewatching, when this is all finished, will probably do this much justice.

Kirei's servant wasn't an assassin but an assassination squad? I didn't see that coming... But it surely explains fully the plot he and Tohsaka had planned - on the surface. I'm somewhat sure Kirei is already brewing his own plans and they aren't only a result of the events in this war. But time will tell.

[Ryllharu]

From what Irisviel said about him and happiness, I'm not certain I can view Kiritsugu as a bastard (in terms of his women). He seems to love Iris very much, and does seem to let down his guard around her, but it is still a political marriage, so I don't know how much he can ultimately trust her. Maiya is probably the only person he truly trusts in the entire world, but she's certainly not someone he can relax around given what the two of them do. Ilya seems to be the only girl he truly loves. His minor breakdown in front of Maiya seemed to illustrate that.

Waver doesn't deserve Rider. Rider is just too cool. He's very straightforward like Saber, but comes off surprisingly wise as well. Waver's name fits him all too well.

I was amused that 4th War Lancer also lamented about not being able to tell his name to his opponent.

[Archangel]

I love how strategically this War is being played, you move when your enemies move and may be swamped by more enemies who are on the prowl just waiting for their chance. It's so much unlike the 5th war where it seemed like Caster was the only one relying on her wits and not her power.

I won't judge Kiritsugu's character just yet, while his goal is the same as Shirou's his methods seem quite different and we've yet to be introduced to just why he chose such a path in the first place. Surely his reasons are a tad more complex than "because daddy did it". Besides, gotta love the swag :D

What in the holy name of fuck? A army of Assassins? I call hax! The plan was quite brilliant though, probably too obvious to the more experient magus but the newbies are sure to lower their guard.

[David75]

It's a bit early to exactly be sure, but this show almost has me regret watching and playing FSN... which is a tad absurd since most of the awesomeness I feel comes from the knowledge I got from those previous sources.

I liked how Alexander/Rider quickly understands the powers and tools of a new era. Factoring what Saber said, he could even fly one of these B2's himself if his build wasn't too big to enter such aircrafts :D

[Kraco]

I won't judge Kiritsugu's character just yet, while his goal is the same as Shirou's his methods seem quite different and we've yet to be introduced to just why he chose such a path in the first place. Surely his reasons are a tad more complex than "because daddy did it".

The other half of Shirou's reason, in addition to copying Kiritsugu's dream, was the inability to accept he was the only one saved from the holocaust or how he had been unable to save anybody. For all we know, Kiritsugu might have a similar background reason. Surely he must have something.


I liked how Alexander/Rider quickly understands the powers and tools of a new era. Factoring what Saber said, he could even fly one of these B2's himself if his build wasn't too big to enter such aircrafts

Maybe Gilgamesh doesn't like this era because everything seems to be massproduced and thus won't offer much in the way of unique treasures...

[Archangel]

The other half of Shirou's reason, in addition to copying Kiritsugu's dream, was the inability to accept he was the only one saved from the holocaust or how he had been unable to save anybody. For all we know, Kiritsugu might have a similar background reason. Surely he must have something.

Maybe Gilgamesh doesn't like this era because everything seems to be massproduced and thus won't offer much in the way of unique treasures...

I'm aware and i found that part of his reasoning just as meaningless. You'd think such an event would lead him to be grateful for life that much more, not leave him eager to throw it out at every possible chance. The man stood between Saber and Berserker...

Well Gilgamesh was a man surrounded by riches and ancient architecture, even neglecting that the war is taking place in a piss poor village in the middle of nowhere Japan i think modern mass construction just doesn't appeal to him.

[David75]

From memory, Gilgamesh does not like todays world because of the so many useless lives (to him) there are. I do not think he's into superior being mofo (no Godwin point here), it's just that he's maybe nostalgic of a world once populated by very few people and gods and now there's this swarm of paians and nothing else.

[Kraco]

I'm aware and i found that part of his reasoning just as meaningless. You'd think such an event would lead him to be grateful for life that much more, not leave him eager to throw it out at every possible chance. The man stood between Saber and Berserker...

It seems like Rin at least partially convinced Shirou in the UBW of the wrongness of his thinking. Kiritsugu, however, never had anybody like that, judging by his character. As sweet as Iris is, she might be far too tragic herself to convince anybody... And maybe he would have been too old already, in any case. Before the Grail war, Shirou hadn't really had too many chances to live up to his inane dream (and destroy himself by doing so).

[Alhuin]

I was being sarcastic with my comment, by the way. Iris should totally be enough to satisfy his lustful desires. >_<

[Buffalobiian]

From memory, Gilgamesh does not like todays world because of the so many useless lives (to him) there are. I do not think he's into superior being mofo (no Godwin point here), it's just that he's maybe nostalgic of a world once populated by very few people and gods and now there's this swarm of paians and nothing else.

Yes, I remember him saying something like that too.

And an army of assassins. That's totally boss. Wonder what their Noble Phantasm is, since they're supposed to be a collective, non-identifiable kill squad. Or perhaps this is their passive Noble Phantasm like Hercules' God Hand.

I would hope they still have something a bit more spectacular though, because everybody thus far who has opinionated on Assassin's death haven't thought very highly of him in terms of a threat (besides Waver - he's pretty spot on about this one).

[David75]

WellSaber, Archer and Lancer are considered best classes maybe thanks to their combat abilities.Berserker is considered strong but impractical due to the high mana toll imposed on the master.But it seems that rider assassin and caster classes are the ones influencing the outcome of a grail war. That's the impression I got at least. Might be a obvious consequence of their relative combat weakness they overcome with greater wits.

[Archangel]

If i recall correctly the problem with the berserker class is that they're simply too hard to control and usually end up killing their own masters.

And honestly the Lancer from the 5th war didn't strike me as that impressive. As a character he was phenomenal and GAR as fuck but his power left much to be desired.

[KrayZ33]

I believe they said that once berserker goes into 'insane' mode, he is unable to get out of it again... normally
he keeps draining his master's mana which results in certain death.

[Archangel]

I believe they said that once berserker goes into 'insane' mode, he is unable to get out of it again... normally
he keeps draining his master's mana which results in certain death.

From the apparently questionable Typemoon wikia


Berserker: Servants placed within this class are always incarnations of heroes who have gone berserk on their lifetime. This trait allows them to use the special ability Mad Enhancement, which trades their consciousness (i.e. sanity) for a large power boost. Most Masters are incapable of controlling their Servant once Mad Enhancement has been activated, which eventually results in their death.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm with the mana theory because it makes the most sense.

Also explains why Ilya can sustain Hercules and why other masters failed.

[Archangel]

Well i'm with facts since i distinctly remember Rin mentioning how Berserker's masters tend to end up dead.

And she could control him so well because Hercules was a sucker for lolis.

[Buffalobiian]

Well i'm with facts since i distinctly remember Rin mentioning how Berserker's masters tend to end up dead.

Yes, they end up dead. You didn't mention how they die. Currently it's from "mana drain" or "too difficult to control".

Mana drain = death - I can understand that one.

Too difficult to control = ... beating their own masters to death? You can use command seals to tell them to never hurt you, which should be a defined enough command that he should never be able to disobey. Alternatively you can just waste your command spells and make him disappear.

The mana theory works better in my opinion because it explains why Ilya survives AND why the other masters die from using the fact that she is a humanised magical circuit alone.

[Kraco]

I'd think the command spells work far less effeciently on berserkers. The whole idea is those monsters are barely in control of themselves, so accidents could happen, like they kill everything in sight. Let's not forget that using the command spell might take too long under the worst circumstances. If you get your head lopped off before you know it, it's too late already.

[Buffalobiian]

I'd think the command spells work far less effeciently on berserkers. The whole idea is those monsters are barely in control of themselves, so accidents could happen, like they kill everything in sight. Let's not forget that using the command spell might take too long under the worst circumstances. If you get your head lopped off before you know it, it's too late already.

So does having enough magic let you control them or something? That's the main issue I have with the control theory as opposed to the sustain theory.

[Kraco]

The only successful case we have seen was Ilya. However, using her uber mana pool, she was with Berserker for... how long? It's possible that long "training" made the fluent cooperation work. At the very least it would have made her learn Berserker's behavior, and also possibly ever so slightly made Berserker avoid hitting her in the middle of a fight.

[Archangel]

So does having enough magic let you control them or something? That's the main issue I have with the control theory as opposed to the sustain theory.
{edit: Highlight for spoilers regarding control from Heaven's Feel game scenario}

Did you think i was kidding with the loli comment?

The Heaven's Feel scenario is pretty explicit on how Berserker feels about Ilya.

-End spoiler. Please remember to spoiler-tag things if you MUST say stuff from the game.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen Bill

[Buffalobiian]

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen Bill

Don't blatantly post game spoilers. End of story. Argue something with anime-only info, or accept the fact that with current anime information, there may be more than one possible theories/viewpoints.

[iSiscon]_Aoi_Eir_-_TV_Anime_Fate_Zero_ED_Single_-_MEMORIA_[w_scans]_(FLAC).rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=254294)
[iSiscon]_Aoi_Eir_-_TV_Anime_Fate_Zero_ED_Single_-_MEMORIA_[w_scans]_(MP3).rar (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=254295)

[Alhuin]

UTW - Episode 04 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=254687)

Size is a bit bigger than their previous releases, but apparently it's because there are a lot of dark scenes which "guzzle up bitrate like no other".

[Archangel]

...darker than usual? I already have to up the brightness in my TV screen to make out wtf is happening most of the time. In the blubart summoning scene i even had to change the definitions of the video card.

[Buffalobiian]

...darker than usual? I already have to up the brightness in my TV screen to make out wtf is happening most of the time. In the blubart summoning scene i even had to change the definitions of the video card.

Fix up your gamma, lol.

Again, I thought it was simply weird that Assassin can't detect everybody who was hiding, yet he was detected as soon as he arrived.

Thermal-scope > guy who can conceal his presence? wtf?

[Ryllharu]

It felt more like Kiritsugu detected his presence, one assassin to another. He only looked over his shoulder when the wind blew through. That was when Kiritsugu did a double take and spotted Assassin through the scope. It was instinct.

Kiritsugu and Maiya are probably using every skill they have to dampen their own presences.

[animus]

Rider is the man.

[Kraco]

This Rider is certainly more awesome than the one in the next war. I was a little worried full-powered Saber would be overpowering, but fortunately the general high class of this war with (almost) everybody having relics and magic training assured the other servants aren't any pushovers either. With the exception of Assassin that likely has the potential divided by a whole host of individuals.

Why didn't Kiritsugu already take out Lancer's master? Didn't he want to do that with Assassin watching? Considering how everybody with any intel already knew he's helping the Einzberns it shouldn't have mattered at all. It makes their team efforts largely wasted if he does nothing but scope the landscape.

It was also nice to see these masters act like proper masters should, pumping mana into the servants to heal wounds. That's one more think largely missing from the next war, with most masters terrible amateurs or otherwise compromised.

[David75]

Yup, good balance of powers and wits in this war.
Rider clearly is awesome. I was a little troubled at first when he said no other servant came to the show, when he was like everyone else just watching and waiting from a distance.
But then he has his grandiose entrance right in the middle of the battlefield.
I almost had tears of joy.

Regarding lancer, the second spear trap was obvious from the moment he dropped it. A bit of a letdown.

I was also a little astonished at how Assassin was so easy to spot when he did not feel Kiritsugu and his teammate.
But since we know Kiritsugu is highly skilled.
It could also be that modern weapons are somewhat immune to some magic. Traditional opposition between magic/science.
Or it just could be that magicians do not care/know about infrared detectors, thus do not conceal that... or do not even have spells for that. Last idea could be those weapons are also magic infused, so have a combined advantage of science and magic.

However all of that works for Kiritsugu, I wonder how his teammate can also benefit from all of this, unless Kiritsugu is so strong he has enough power to perfectly conceal her too.

Regarding Saber, she is too perfectly the same as she'll be in the next war. Acting quick without really anticipating a trick/trap and taking high damage quite early into a fight/war.

[shinta|hikari]

I think you guys are underestimating Saber. It is an insult to think that losing movement of her left hand's thumb is a disadvantage. She said so herself. She has not even used her Noble Phantasm yet. She is smart and strong enough to know that she should be able to defeat this Lancer without exposing all of her secrets to the audience.

[Buffalobiian]

I think you guys are underestimating Saber. It is an insult to think that losing movement of her left hand's thumb is a disadvantage. She said so herself. She has not even used her Noble Phantasm yet. She is smart and strong enough to know that she should be able to defeat this Lancer without exposing all of her secrets to the audience.

An opposable thumb is essential for grabbing and manipulating items with significant strength and dexterity. Saber said so herself that it was bad for him to cut her tendon. You can't expect her to voice her concerns to the enemy like that.

She's strong, but she's taken too much damage before working out her opponent's abilities and identity. Lancer was the one who truly got away with only a scratch. The question is how much hidden potential each of them still have. Saber still has Excalibur (and Avalon, but you know about that one), but does Lancer have some hidden move also? Or that it?

As for Kiritsugu's scope, on re-watch it seems he actually spotted Assassin with night vision.

I can understand his decision to stay hidden. While all the other masters may have gathered information on him and know he's on Saber's team, they don't know his exact location at any one time, or motives. Sniping Lancer's master was his only offensive motive. As he stated himself, he didn't have the means for dispatching another servant once his location is exposed.

Kind of like sniping the enemy commander when another opposition's platoon is camped next door. Suicide.

[shinta|hikari]

If Lancer gets hit by Excalibur, he will probably die, much like most other Servants to ever exist. The challenge in this fight is how Saber can win without using it. Heck, she hasn't even removed invisible air yet. She was never in any real danger in this battle. She has that cheap luck skill that enabled her to survive the heart stab in the next war after all.

[David75]

That's one of her traits, she seem to take physical damage easily/too lightly. Of course most of us know more than what we have here. It only had me realize she's very similar to her future master in that regard.

[Ryllharu]

She could easily win with Excalibur, but that would reveal who she is to everyone. Lancer and Lancer's master now know who she is, but right now, no one else does. Lancer was the only one close enough to recognize Caliburn through Saber's Invisible Air. But we should expect that more than just Rider and Assassin were watching.

Knowing a Servant's identity changes the entire battle. Saber would not have even gotten hurt if she had known who Lancer was from the start.

[shinta|hikari]

That was Excalibur, not Caliburn. I agree with everything else.

[fireheart]

Maybe I'm wrong about this but has Lancer really used his noble phantasm yet? Thought they had to scream out their name in order to activate them so it seemed more that the two abilities of his lances are passive rather than active. The only question then is why they didn't work before but considering they started showing off their abilities after the bandage was taken off it's probably safe to assume they were being sealed, most likely because they are passive and he can't turn them off which in turn would mean it'd be easier for them to figure out his identity.

As for assassin no one really noticed him with the help of magic etc and Kiritsugu made a point of monitoring both that crane and Saber for a reason so if assassin shows up on that crane it'd only be a matter of time before they spotted him. Besides concealing your presence doesn't equal invisible.


Saber still has Excalibur (and Avalon, but you know about that one)

I thought she didn't have Avalon since she didn't have it in the fifth war, if I remember things right Kiritsugu is the one that has it not Saber.


An opposable thumb is essential for grabbing and manipulating items with significant strength and dexterity. Saber said so herself that it was bad for him to cut her tendon.

I'm mostly wondering if it'll heal at all since they said the spear was cursed and the wounds won't heal, if it won't then it's a really big handicap. But yeah since she mostly uses both her hands when fighting the loss of her thumb is quite big. Nor 100% on this but from when I tried kendo the left hand was more important than my right as I only used the right to aim while the power came from the left.


If Lancer gets hit by Excalibur, he will probably die

I think most servants would die if they got hit by the full force of any servants noble phantasm unless we're talking about Caster from the fifth war and see above I'm not entirely convinced Lancers used any of his yet.

[shinta|hikari]

I bet when Lancer dies, the curse disappears as well. I think Saber fought the King of Heroes with both hands, so yeah.

[Kraco]

Yeah, I'm not underestimating anybody. I merely said that for the sake of the fights it's good there were other servants who could put up a fight against her. And clearly this episode showed Lancer was able to do that. Saying Saber could take him out any time with Excalibur is meaningless, especially knowing her personality that always makes her postpone using it. Should Saber face an opponent that immediately required her to use her offensive noble phantasm, it's safe to say the situation would be dire indeed.

In the end it's not like either of these two would have yet given their utmost to defeat the opponent.

[fireheart]

By the way if Lancers red spear cancels mana would Excalibur even reach him?

[shinta|hikari]

If only the tip cancels mana, then yes. Actually, unless his spear creates an absolute barrier large enough to protect his entire body (which is obviously not the case since his strike did not remove ALL of Saber's armour), he will get hit, and get extinguished. Excalibur is an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm after all.

[Kraco]

I believe Excalibur would overpower the spear's antimagic abilities anyway. It would simply annihilate first, Lancer shortly after. It's the goddam Excalibur, after all!

[Ryllharu]

It's the goddam Excalibur, after all!How does that compare to the Excalibolg (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7271/05041a32b3788e4605adfc5.jpg)? It has the power of both death and life. "Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!"
(couldn't resist)


Maybe I'm wrong about this but has Lancer really used his noble phantasm yet? Thought they had to scream out their name in order to activate them so it seemed more that the two abilities of his lances are passive rather than active. The only question then is why they didn't work before but considering they started showing off their abilities after the bandage was taken off it's probably safe to assume they were being sealed, most likely because they are passive and he can't turn them off which in turn would mean it'd be easier for them to figure out his identity.Not all noble phantasms require screaming the name out when using it. A lot of the heroes like to do that for their most powerful one, but don't forget that many heroes have more than one (5th War Rider has three, Gilgamesh has two or infinite depending on how you're counting), and a few are passive (Hercules and his Twelve Labors). 5th War Assassin (Kojirou) doesn't even have a true one. Technically, Saber's Invisible Air is one of her noble phantasms, and she just uses that one all the time.

[Buffalobiian]

I thought she didn't have Avalon since she didn't have it in the fifth war, if I remember things right Kiritsugu is the one that has it not Saber.

Yes. That's what I meant by "you know about that one".


I'm mostly wondering if it'll heal at all since they said the spear was cursed and the wounds won't heal, if it won't then it's a really big handicap. But yeah since she mostly uses both her hands when fighting the loss of her thumb is quite big. Nor 100% on this but from when I tried kendo the left hand was more important than my right as I only used the right to aim while the power came from the left.

Not only that, but depending on how powerful the anti-healing curse it, you can simply die from blood loss in the worst case.


She has that cheap luck skill that enabled her to survive the heart stab in the next war after all.

Was it luck? I can't remember if it was that, or her uber reaction time "that borders on precognition" which meant she dodged before the Reverse Causality locked on.

[fireheart]

Not all noble phantasms require screaming the name out when using it. A lot of the heroes like to do that for their most powerful one, but don't forget that many heroes have more than one (5th War Rider has three, Gilgamesh has two or infinite depending on how you're counting), and a few are passive (Hercules and his Twelve Labors). 5th War Assassin (Kojirou) doesn't even have a true one. Technically, Saber's Invisible Air is one of her noble phantasms, and she just uses that one all the time.

Well I understand Hercules not needing to yell out his considering he didn't have any of his trade mark weapons and didn't they say that Kojirou could have been an fictional character so him having an attack that's not based on the name of his weapon is understandable. But yeah you could be right that Lancers spears only have passive skills and no active skills like Saber.

[Ryllharu]

Well I understand Hercules not needing to yell out his considering he didn't have any of his trade mark weapons and didn't they say that Kojirou could have been an fictional character so him having an attack that's not based on the name of his weapon is understandable. But yeah you could be right that Lancers spears only have passive skills and no active skills like Saber.Not all Noble Phantasms are necessarily weapons, I'm not sure why you are tying the two.

Twelve Labors isn't a weapon. Blood Fort Andromeda (the one that 5th War Rider used on the school to gain more magical energy) isn't one either. Neither is Bellerophon (what 5th War Rider uses to summon and power up her riding beast). Invisible Air modifies a weapon, but it can be used on any object. Unlimited Blade Works isn't even a weapon, it is a Reality Marble.

As for Kojirou, Tsubame Gaeshi is a skill that is equivalent to a Noble Phantasm, but it is not one. He could use it with any sword-shaped object, like a stick for example. It doesn't even use prana, just him being able to move, preferably on flat ground.

[fireheart]

Well that wasn't what I was saying, I'm just saying that if Hercules had some of his weapons they'd probably would have been his noble phantasm and that it's understandable he doesn't have to activate it if it's a passive one. Again I understand that he doesn't need to yell it out since he didn't have any of his weapons, now if he did have them he'd probably have to yell their names out as they'd would most likely have been active skills. And again Assassin as an potential fictional character having a skill instead of a weapon to define him is equally understandable since it's what he was known for. Nowhere did I really say that it has to be a weapon so I'm not sure where you get the idea that I've tied noble phantasm to weapons.

If it makes it easier to understand then it would be that Lancer hasn't used any active noble phantasm and only used what seems to be passive abilities so he might still have an ace up his sleeve unless he only have passive ones which could be possible.

[Archangel]

Hahaha! Oh lord, i love Rider so much. While everyone is trying their best to hide their identities he just jumps in from nowhere and shouts his own for everyone to hear. BADASS!

[masamuneehs]

i'mma watch this show.

but they better not have made this just for the fans. i expect a coherent, well-told, well-animated story here. not just a bunch of fan service, and references only visual novel afficionados will get. i can't remember how most of F/SN went down anyway.

[shinta|hikari]

You'll love it then.

[RyougaZell]

At the pace this thread usually goes... I'm surprised no one has posted this yet.

Episode 5 UTW (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=256394)

[shinta|hikari]

This show hasn't even hit the halfway mark, but I'm sure it'll be a masterpiece.

Every single servant is awesome. Even the gay bulges clone was pretty cool. Iskandar got paired up with the perfect master after all. Still, I would have wanted to see Kiritsugu kick ass by getting rid of Lancer's master.

[Kraco]

Still, I would have wanted to see Kiritsugu kick ass by getting rid of Lancer's master.

I imagine for a hitman like Kiritsugu, who tries to be in control of the situation and plan his actions carefully, as was made evident by the initial setting of this fight, the fact more and more servants popped in had to be unsettling. He also had to keep in mind the fact he was quite far away from Saber and thus recalling Saber to protect him would have meant Irisviel's death. Sniping under those circumstances would have been risky, and he only decided to proceed when Saber was in serious danger.

It's too bad about Lancer, but his master needs to die.

I was wondering what Caster and his lunatic master were up to, but fortunately we got the scene. Seems like Saber's worries are multiplying...

[shinta|hikari]

In the preview, Saber mentioned that there will be no holding back in the next battle. I am looking forward to seeing Excalibur unleashed in its full power.

[fireheart]

As so many of you already said Rider is awesome though Berserker was pretty awesome as well and fared far better against Gilgamesh than Hercules did even if Gilgamesh didn't fully open Gate of Babylon. A little surprised that two commands seals already been used so early and that Saber gave away her identity to Rider so willingly since I thought it was only Lancer that knew who she was.

[Kraco]

that Saber gave away her identity to Rider so willingly since I thought it was only Lancer that knew who she was.

The drawback of being an honourable knight.

[Belial]

O damn, i expected a lot from this episode but it turned out far better then i could have imagined, this kind of series remind me why i still watch anime, the animation is top notch, the action is great and the story will be full of twists and turns i am sure

[Ryllharu]

As so many of you already said Rider is awesome though Berserker was pretty awesome as well and fared far better against Gilgamesh than Hercules did even if Gilgamesh didn't fully open Gate of Babylon.There is a great deal of puffing up Rider as this allegedly amazing character around here, but I was a bit disappointed. He's honorable, he's pretty cool, but he doesn't respect his master at all. Not that Waver commands respect...

In the end, Rider is just kind of an idiot. A pleasant contrast to the way 5th War Rider fought, but I think I preferred her style of fighting. Hers was the same way Kiritsugu and Maiya fight. I'm just not seeing how this Rider will be able to compete with Saber, much less Gilgamesh. His chariot charge is fast and powerful, but unless he can stop their movements, it won't do much good. We know that Saber's Excalibur Noble Phantasm is faster than any attack 5th War Rider could produce, and 5th War Rider's final Noble Phantasm was supposed to be one of the fastest. Gilgamesh is worse, as he typically prefers to stand on top of objects rather than the ground.

But Berserker, he was impressive. Where Hercules was raw strength and power, 4th War Berserker matches it with skill. Saber could receive his blows this time even with his boosts, but she was getting pressed back pretty hard. Anyone who can meet with Gilgamesh on even ground and get him pissed off enough to get serious is someone to be worried about. Not that the ending already didn't make it obvious who he is as Archie pointed out, but him going out of his way to attack Saber makes it pretty obvious now.

As for Caster, I'm guessing he thinks Saber is Joan of Arc? He doesn't seem like one of Saber's contemporaries the way Lancer is. Looks like this time, Merlin's little trick about Saber pretending to be male is going to backfire badly for her. Otherwise, Caster might not be so convinced she is who he thinks she is. Unless he's totally crazy, which seems pretty likely. At first, I kept thinking that Caster was looking at Iris.

[Buffalobiian]

At first, I kept thinking that Caster was looking at Iris.

Same, but then he turned his eyes on Saber, and I lolled. Since this servant summon was even more of a sausage-fest than the next war, everyone wants a piece of Saber one way or another xD.

I still don't know who Beserker is despite you guys pointing out that he's a knight by a lake.. (I have only one guess).

Berserker was cool, but it seemed much too convenient that weapons were firing at him in succession rather than at the same time. That is, unless his movement is superspeed comparable to a certain character's bullet-dodging boobs. The very first counter suggested that may be the case since I didn't see it at all, as well as the move that almost knocked Saber flying. My only doubt about that is that such superspeed should have overwhelmed Saber even sooner than it did.


Even the gay bulges clone was pretty cool.

As in Lancer?


Still, I would have wanted to see Kiritsugu kick ass by getting rid of Lancer's master.

I did, but also didn't. I wanted to see it because it would have been cool, but at the same time it wouldn't have been exactly as Kiritsugu planned, so it won't be perfect.

Sniping for him was the final and winning move. There should be no follow-up fights since he won't win them, and there shouldn't be observers who knew what happened.

[shinta|hikari]

Yes.

Knight and Lake searched in google (http://www.google.com.ph/search?q=knight+lake&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

[David75]

I agree that somehow they portrayed Alexander as way too simple. A great character, with charisma, but you could still consider some kind of idiot... that is for now.
After all, being able to get Gilgamesh, Berserker, Lancer's master out is already a very smart move. He even got Saber's true name in the process. You can consider that a great achievement.
Then, he was able to force Lancer's master to let go of a command spell.
He's been able to gauge skills of Berserker, Gilgamesh, Saber and Lancer.

Quite a great/bold move getting him good results IMHO

[Buffalobiian]

Yes.

Knight and Lake searched in google (http://www.google.com.ph/search?q=knight+lake&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Just so you know, I'm not reading that yet. ;)

[NeoCybercoin]

Berserker was pretty damn awesome. He could have just as easily be summoned as a Saber Class.

[Archangel]

THAT WAS AWESOME! HOW CAN THIS BE THIS AWESOME! IT'S ALMOST TOO AWESOME!

No but seriously, if Berserker was any more of a badass i would want him as the father of my children. And Alexander is surprisingly resourceful, i'm inclined to believe he initiated the whole affair just to bring out Gilgamesh from hiding and having a better look at his Noble Phantasm. And if he didn't and he's just a simpleton that's ok too, i'm a fan of heroic buffoons.

Why is caster making such a big deal about Saber? Because they're both British? If Joan of Arc had been summoned i'd get it, but these 2 were separated by a few hundred years.

How are these production values sustainable for a TV broadcast? Not even Bakemonogatari could compare to this and even the the TV broadcast cut corners at every single change it got.

[fireheart]

There is a great deal of puffing up Rider as this allegedly amazing character around here, but I was a bit disappointed. He's honorable, he's pretty cool, but he doesn't respect his master at all. Not that Waver commands respect...

In the end, Rider is just kind of an idiot

I don't see a lot of servants actually respecting their masters so don't see why that would make him less impressive, Berserker isn't exactly under his masters control, Gilgamesh finds Tokiomi beneath him, Saber doesn't see eye to eye with Kiritsugu and Caster seems to be the master instead of Ryuunosuke. That just leaves Lancer and Assassin that seem to have respect for their masters in this war and at least Rider stood up for Waver which shows at least some respect as he didn't stand for Kayneth just smack talking him. Besides why do the servants have to respect for their masters? I mean they're former kings and heroes (most of them anyway) so it should be the other way around since in comparison the mages doesn't have a lot to come with other than the fact that this war makes them their servants.

As for Rider being an idiot he kinda reminds me of Shoryu from Twelve Kingdoms, Shoryu acted like an idiot but his moves made sense and ended up favoring him. Acting like an idiot could benefit him instead of being as serious as the other servants since they could end up underestimating him, the results from this episode does benefit him.


His chariot charge is fast and powerful, but unless he can stop their movements, it won't do much good. We know that Saber's Excalibur Noble Phantasm is faster than any attack 5th War Rider could produce, and 5th War Rider's final Noble Phantasm was supposed to be one of the fastest.

Sorry but I don't remember Saber's Excalibur being faster than any attack the fifth Rider could throw at her. Saber using Excalibur and hitting Riders Bellerophon that was rushing towards her doesn't really mean it's faster than Bellerophon, that's more a question of timing. Shiro could probably throw a stone at Bellerophon before it hit him but that wouldn't prove that the stone he throw is faster. There's also the fact that we don't know if the chariot is his only Noble Phantasm.

[Ryllharu]

Not obeying Waver doesn't make him less impressive. It doesn't make him more impressive either. Any Servant wouldn't respect him. He's just a wuss, full of himself and confident of his own abilities, before he got into the War. Now he shows, or is at least discovering, how outclassed he might be.

What disappointed me is that he's just a noble idiot thus far. You have a point that he may be faking it, and that certainly is a possibility given his earlier displays of robbing libraries and watching tons of videos and declaring Bill Clinton as someone he'd have to worry about. Where he failed was underestimating the pride of both Saber and Lancer. Granted, there isn't much of a way to know how much Saber (possibly above all other Servants) wants the Grail. Seeking it was a major one of her life goals. In his heyday, he commanded a great deal of respect, and brought a huge number of warriors into his armies, as he conquered them. But here he is fighting heroes and Kings. So few of them would ever bow to the authority of another besides their Masters.

It was like Rider was ignoring everything he should have learned from the Grail. The Grail imparts knowledge of both the War, its rules, and the modern era. Yet Alexander chose to study on his own as well, and apparently ignored what the Grail would have told him about the relationship of Servants and Masters. He was appealing to other Servants warrior to warrior, something he could understand. He should have been appealing to their Masters.

He's got a lot of pride and confidence. That's great. But he isn't showing much subtlety or insight, yet. Confidence and pride without insight brings hubris. Hubris in a War like this leads to one's undoing.


Sorry but I don't remember Saber's Excalibur being faster than any attack the fifth Rider could throw at her. Saber using Excalibur and hitting Riders Bellerophon that was rushing towards her doesn't really mean it's faster than Bellerophon, that's more a question of timing. Shiro could probably throw a stone at Bellerophon before it hit him but that wouldn't prove that the stone he throw is faster. There's also the fact that we don't know if the chariot is his only Noble Phantasm.Rider's own words in episode 12 of the FSN anime: "Curse yourself as much as you can, for you are not even able to touch this creature." Rider truly believed that Saber would not be able to touch her once she was on her Pegasus. Both from its aerial maneuverability and its speed, especially with Bellerophon. Excalibur moves in a straight line. Even while she was charging, if it truly was slower, Rider should have been able to dodge it.

[fireheart]

The fact that Rider didn't listen to the Grail just showed me that he's someone that won't blindly follow something just because it said so. The fact that he wanted to find out on his own is by all means more impressive than any other servant since he's the only one that actually questioned the source.

Judging from what he said he's not interested in the war in the first place other than the prospect of facing other heroes so why should he care about the knowledge that the Grail imparted to him? And I don't think he was serious about them joining him in the first place considering he said he wanted to duel both and that it'd be a shame to let them die, if they had accepted he'd have been fine with that but it didn't feel like he was serious about it.

If you asked me he made the right choice in appealing to the servants instead of the masters, because it's the masters that's actually interested in winning the war the servants from what I understood not so much except for Saber so appealing to them would have been useless in the first place. However as things stands he's won some respect with both Saber and Lancer one might even say a favor and unless the masters want to use an command spell that means they might help him against another foe say Gilgamesh or Berserker and that's not something he'd get from dealing with their masters. This is why I think he benefited more than the other servants other than Saber whom faced an potential loss against Lancer twice if it weren't for Rider. Sure Gilgamesh won't be coming to his aid but that was impossible from the start.


Rider's own words in episode 12 of the FSN anime: "Curse yourself as much as you can, for you are not even able to touch this creature." Rider truly believed that Saber would not be able to touch her once she was on her Pegasus. Both from its aerial maneuverability and its speed, especially with Bellerophon. Excalibur moves in a straight line. Even while she was charging, if it truly was slower, Rider should have been able to dodge it.

You can interpret that line like you did but I never did, it always sounded more like Pegasus was such a holy creature that Saber literally wouldn't be able to touch it. Not because it was to fast but because it's protected and that Excalibur was just a lot stronger and blew it away. And according to the not so reliable type moon wiki the Pegasus has insane defense, divine protection as strong as a dragon and already high defense even without it.

[Kraco]

I believe it was said in FSN the servants seek something from the grail, at the very least as much as the masters who are certainly a bigger question mark. It seems like in every war the Grail will choose some masters that are ill prepared if not completely oblivious of everything going on until briefed by the servant (or other masters or the supervisor). You can hardly say such people would desire something more from the Grail than the heroic spirits, who more or less exist only in the Grail war (as far as Fate is concerned, at least, and in this thread it would be useless to go beyond Fate).

So, only a weird servant wouldn't seek the Grail. They should also inherently know they will disappear after the war unless something unnatural happens.

[Lucifus]

Rider's ambition is just that epic. His plan is likely to win the grail for himself, so he can begin his conquest of the world. Seem's to me he doesn't care for the grail at all, only about having himself some fun.

The war has presented some interesting and obviously skilled servants that have piqued his interest. As of now, he has no army or vassals; he has to start fresh. Might as well win the grail, and attempt to build up a new one right now.

[fireheart]

I don't know about that since so far Gilgamesh doesn't really seem to care about the Grail beyond that all treasures belong to him and judging it's worth. Lancer doesn't seem to want it for himself just to hand it over to his master since when Rider gave his proposition he didn't say he would obtain it rather his master, yes you could say it means the same as him wanting it for himself but his words doesn't indicate that he wants it. Caster and Berserker are crazy though they might want it kinda hard to say at this point and Assassin doesn't seem to care about the Grail either otherwise they wouldn't agree to what Kirei is doing.
We also have Assassin from the 5th war that didn't care about the Grail only about facing worthy opponents. Archer didn't really need the Grail either so you could say he doesn't care about it in the first place since it seems he never intended to win. Lancer gave up his chance to obtain it, if he really wanted it he wouldn't just throw it away and no idea when it comes to Rider and Berserker. So from what I've seen it seems a lot of them don't really care for the Grail.

You could be right about them wanting the Grail but how do the masters know which hero actually wants the Grail, since they go through all the trouble of finding relics etc to summon them it would also require them knowing they have a need for the Grail and I don't know if stories from the past is enough to judge if someone wants the Grail. If it was the Grail that picked the heroes I'd understand but not when it's the masters that pick.

It seems kinda weird to say they only exist in the Grail war at the very least Archer from the 5th war existed beyond that and after his death as well judging by the movie so if he's an heroic spirit like the rest there shouldn't be any reason why the other heroes can't do the same. And then there's the deal with Gilgamesh.

[Ryllharu]

It helps when you pay attention to the series details. It's not necessarily the Grail itself (certainly is for Saber though), but the wish the Grail will grant the Servant if they win it. That's the incentive for Servants to participate at all (source: FSN).

- The Grail itself has been corrupted from the 3rd War onward (source: FSN). That's why evil Servants (both Casters), monsters (5th War Rider), and even weirder "heroes" (5th War Archer) are summoned by the Grail.

- 4th War caster is an occultist. He absolutely would want the Grail and all that obtaining it means. Though he might want Saber more now that he's apparently got her identity confused with someone else.
- 4th War Berserker would want it. (Not spoiling identity for those who haven't figured it out.)
- 5th War Assassin was summoned by Caster. That alone breaks the rules (gee, I wonder how she could/would do that... :)), and makes his motivations out of line with the normal functions of the Wars. (source: FSN)
- 5th War Archer is a huge another aberration due to the Grail's corruption, but we know he wants to be involved and to get the Grail as part of achieving his goal (source: UBW movie).
- A lot of them not caring about the Grail (5th War Rider, 5th War Caster), is once again, part of the grail being corrupted (source: FSN/UBW movie).
- Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh. He wants to possess everything, just like you said.
- Can't speak about the 4th War Assassin without bringing stuff up from the game.

- Care to elaborate on your Lancer statement? I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm in agreement with the fact that Rider thought Pegasus was untouchable due to how holy it is. The fact that it's a creature from the Age of Gods.


How are these production values sustainable for a TV broadcast? Not even Bakemonogatari could compare to this and even the the TV broadcast cut corners at every single change it got.

It's sustainable because they anticipated this and pumped a whole lot of cash into it. They must be investing a LOT more into this than your average TV series, and hope to recuperate the cost with sales and other side accessories (merchandise etc).

This is all gambling on the established fanbase, and I sure as hell hope this succeeds so another such project will follow suit.

[shinta|hikari]

According to Type-Moon wiki, Excalibur is one of the fastest, and probably the 2nd most powerful noble phantasm attack in terms of sheer power. I'm sure this refers to the speed of the projectile itself, not the start up and execution time. It also cannot be fired in succession, so it isn't firing rate either.

Thing is, Excalibur has such an absurd range that once fired, it will probably hit. It is supposed to destroy fortresses, leaving nothing in its wake, in one attack after all.

[Alhuin]

So much awesome, so little time. Berserker was a nice change of pace... he actually had some skill and amazing speed compared to the brute force approach of 5th war Berserker. I can't quite figure out why he decided to attack Saber once Gilgamesh left, as opposed to Lancer. But whatever... he managed to piss Gilgamesh off quite a bit, which is just fine. Rider is a servant I really like, but also really hate. I agree with pretty much everything Ryll said about him, but yet I still think he'll prove to be a badass fighter, even if he doesn't get serious. He sorta reminds me of Kamina from GL... kinda....

I also thought Caster was looking at Iris at first, until I saw the reflection in his eyes (which is where I thought the episode would end, but then it actually showed her in the crystal ball... >_>).

Two command spells by episode 5. Tohsaka's use of the spell was pretty justified, considering the situation Gilgamesh was in, but I can't understand why Lancer's master would use his. It didn't seem like he was thinking clearly though... maybe frustrated with Rider's words?

[shinta|hikari]

5th war berserker was absurdly fast too.

Rider isn't an idiot. I'm pretty sure his seemingly impulsive actions had some thought put into them. He did manage to get Pendragon's identity and Gilgamesh to appear after all.

Rider's master wanted to get rid of the Saber class, considered the strongest class, when they got the chance. It was mainly Saber's pride and carelessness that cost her the arm. If she fought lancer in full power, lancer would be dead.

[Buffalobiian]

Rider isn't an idiot. I'm pretty sure his seemingly impulsive actions had some thought put into them. He did manage to get Pendragon's identity and Gilgamesh to appear after all.

Lancer also spouted out his true name when he was talking to his Master.

Effectively, Rider's actions turned this from an assassination war to a tournament of sorts. It's not unwelcome since this promotes character interaction from an entertainment point of view.

As for Rider's Noble Phantasm, he's Alexander the Great.. I would think his best attack is none other than having a huge army at his disposal.

[shinta|hikari]

As long as Kiritsugu and Kotomine are alive, and we all know they will be until the end, it will always be an assassination game.

Rider managed to lessen that aspect, not just for victory or advantage, but also because he prefers it that way. A lot of servants in this war seem to move for some other reason than just getting the grail.

[Kraco]

It seems kinda weird to say they only exist in the Grail war at the very least Archer from the 5th war existed beyond that and after his death as well judging by the movie so if he's an heroic spirit like the rest there shouldn't be any reason why the other heroes can't do the same. And then there's the deal with Gilgamesh.

Yeah, these heroic spirits supposedly exist beyond time and fight for the world when called, but the one and only time we have actually witnessed them exist and do anything, atfer their mortal lives, is this Grail war. Or as a high price perversion between wars like Gilgamesh.

[fireheart]

It helps when you pay attention to the series details. It's not necessarily the Grail itself (certainly is for Saber though), but the wish the Grail will grant the Servant if they win it. That's the incentive for Servants to participate at all (source: FSN).

You really do assume to much about others sometimes as I remember the wish the only difference is I didn't separate them in my post because the way I see it, want the Grail = want the wish (even if it doesn't have to that way). Anyway if you remember Sabers reason for wanting it was to place a wish that she didn't pull the sword out of the stone hence she want the wish not the Grail, so I wouldn't agree if you said she wanted the Grail because it's the Grail.

But the thing is I don't see most servants as actually having a wish unless they're deeply dissatisfied with their life like Archer or filled with regret like Saber while it's hard to judge it doesn't seem like the ones I mentioned have any interest in the wish or the Grail. As I said if the servant have a wish they want to fulfill it makes the summoning even more complicated, how do they find out if the person they want to summon has one? More so since they have to hunt down relics or something else in order to summon them. There's really no way of knowing if they have one which is another reason I'm more inclined to believe most don't care about it other than a few. Though to be honest I have a vague memory of them saying that it's because they have a need for the Grail that they'll put up with being servants, I still think a lot of them show little to no interest in it.


- 5th War Assassin was summoned by Caster. That alone breaks the rules (gee, I wonder how she could/would do that... :)), and makes his motivations out of line with the normal functions of the Wars. (source: FSN)
- 5th War Archer is a huge another aberration due to the Grail's corruption, but we know he wants to be involved and to get the Grail as part of achieving his goal (source: UBW movie).

- Care to elaborate on your Lancer statement? I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

Can't really say if Caster summoning Assassin is against the rules as she said she's a mage so why can't she? Besides if the Grail doesn't object then it's not against the rules, because seriously who else is going to decide the rules if not the Grail?

Don't remember them ever saying it was because of the Grail's corruption that Rin was able to summon him and really just getting summoned was enough to fulfill his wish which makes his interest in the Grail zero other than it's ability to summon him into that time. Besides wasn't it just that the Grail transcends time and space and that's why he could be summoned? He is an heroic spirit after all and not some kind of weird hero.

Which Lancer do you want me to elaborate on?

[Lucifus]

Episode 6

[KS]_Fate_Zero_-_06_[360p].mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=258049)

[NicoNico]_Fate_Zero_-_06.mp4 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=258068)

[SJSUBS]_Fate_Zero_-_06_[360p].mkv (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=258066)

I'd personally wait a few hours for a higher quality release though. =P

[Marik]

[UTW] Fate Zero - 06 - 720p: Torrent (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=258216) | DDL1 (http://www.fileserve.com/file/AqxR8v9) | DDL2 (http://www.filesonic.com/file/3088914965)

[Ryllharu]

That was a stunningly boring episode.

Not much in the way of surprises either. We already kind of knew that Kiritsugu would go to any length to take out a target, and that's what he did. We already knew Archer and Kirei had plans to double-cross everyone else. It was pretty obvious who Caster was mistaking Saber for in the last episode, though now he's confirmed his identity.

By the way, what happened to a Servant keeping their identity secret? Saber tells anyone who tells her their name, Rider tells everyone, Lancer does the same as Saber, Gilgamesh tells everyone how great he is and that he's the King of Kings, so he's assuming everyone knows who he is (which they don't, obviously). Caster blurts it out. Assassin...doesn't have much of an identity to begin with.

So it's really just Berserker who's still keeping the secret. Where's the strategy of keeping a Servant's skills secret?


The only interesting thing at all was that Irisviel can drive, and rather well at that.

[RyougaZell]

Pretty much what Ryll said. After the awesome scene of Irisviel driving, the rest of the episode was really dull. Specially the scene with Kirei and Gilgamesh. I just wanted it to end and continue with something important and then... end of episode. At least it seems things will be awesome next with all the servants against Caster.

If everybody pretty much knows who Saber is about now... she should stop hiding Excalibur. Oh well.

Saber in a suit is hot.

[Buffalobiian]

Hiding her sword still makes it hard to judge its length and shape.

The episode wasn't stunning like the previous ones, but it was still entertaining for me. With that in mind, I can't call it "boring".

[Kraco]

Not much in the way of surprises either. We already kind of knew that Kiritsugu would go to any length to take out a target, and that's what he did. We already knew Archer and Kirei had plans to double-cross everyone else.


...the rest of the episode was really dull. Specially the scene with Kirei and Gilgamesh. I just wanted it to end and continue with something important and then... end of episode.

Sounds more like the classical case of being betrayed by your own expectations rather than the show itself. Besides, in my opinion it's different to "kind of know" something and actually see it happen. We had seen others talk shit about Kiritsugu, but so far we had seen him do nothing but hesitate. Without events like this, at the end of the show he wouldn't have been much of a man, only rumours and nothing else. Besides, what's important is that Archibald obviously wasn't expecting this, regardless of his fate.

It's actually exactly the same situation with the Kirei and Gilgamesh discussion. I admit it was quite boring as such and fortunately it wasn't any longer than this at this point, at least, but without it we would have had a plot hole awaiting sooner or later. It's not like Kirei and Gilgamesh would just suddenly out of the blue decide to betray everybody and establish their unholy alliance without knowing anything about each other. It's much better if there's some foundation for what is going to happen.

All in all this episode wasn't conclusive in much of anything (I won't believe Lancer/Archibald is out of the picture until I see the body, haha), but it was of importance in any case. I don't know who could ever follow the Hollywood textbook telling every ep must keep the audience hanging on the edge of their seat.

[animus]

The beginning driving sequence oddly reminded me of Initial D.

[David75]

The beginning driving sequence oddly reminded me of Initial D.
Same here, awesome :D

I liked the ep, changed from all out flashy battles back to strategy and hints at future events. I guess finishing FSN VN not too long ago really helps.
I liked most of it, except Caster's part I feel is totally useless and nonsensical right now. Or is it he's strong enough as a magician to control Arturia into thinking she's Joan of Arc? Impossible. As much as I'd love to have Joan join the battle, I can't have her replace Arturia.

Some info from Gilles de Retz from Wikipedia if some of you are interrested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais

[shinta|hikari]

It was an episode that reminded me how much more awesome Fate/Zero is over FSN. They actually took an episode to flesh out the details in the novel (I have not read it, but it seems that way, based on all the light novels I have read) which will eventually make the show more meaningful.

I actually loved the scene with Gilgamesh and Kiritsugu. It told volumes about Gil's character. He no longer seems like the shallow arrogant king that he was portrayed as before. He has indeed tasted all the pleasures in the world, and also possesses the pride AND wisdom that comes with it.

Saber not being able to shoot Excalibur due to her injury does indeed hurt Emiya's chances of victory. I think he was being too lenient when he got all the other residents out. If he was seriously trying to kill that master, he would have blasted the building with everyone in it. That would have made him hateful to Saber though, and that will be to his disadvantage in the end.

I think the name revealing thing is more of an issue to the masters, since they are not honorable for the most part. The servants are heroes known for their honor and pride, and when honor demands you reveal your name, they oblige.

The scene with the dual masters and the mole was hilarious. Those are the subtle character details that make this show amazing.

[Kraco]

I think he was being too lenient when he got all the other residents out. If he was seriously trying to kill that master, he would have blasted the building with everyone in it. That would have made him hateful to Saber though, and that will be to his disadvantage in the end.

Maybe you know something more than I, but isn't Kiritsugu the man who wanted to be a hero but couldn't, and who thus was happy his adopted son, Shirou, decided to do that for both of them? Kiritsugu wanted to be a hero but in a more realistic manner, that is, knowing he can't save everybody. However, it doesn't mean he would blow up a whole hotel full of people to get one man if he had a choice. With an airplane you wouldn't have a choice: It's either all or none, but with a hotel you do. Moreover, Archibald immediately saw it wasn't a mere accidental fire and apparently decided to stick to his room even more so, making the classic arrogant wizard mistake of thinking his bastion is impenetrable. I bet Kiritsugu, the mage killer, counted on that very fact.

[shinta|hikari]

Indeed Kiritsugu was revealed to be that kind of character, but from the reputation he has, he should be able to do it easily. Even so, it is also a plus for his character to have a conscience, as long as he was certain Lancer's master would not leave the hotel. If Emiya had even the slightest doubt that he would escape (which he managed to do anyway), it would have been a really badly laid plan.

[Archangel]

Why is caster making such a big deal about Saber? Because they're both British? If Joan of Arc had been summoned i'd get it, but these 2 were separated by a few hundred years.
I still don't get it...

Does a legendary spirit who went mad in his final years come back mad as well? I thought they were summoned at the peak of their abilities.

[shinta|hikari]

Maybe he peaked when he went mad? Makes sense for a serial killer.

[David75]

It seems Caster has been summoned for the part of life of Gilles de Retz as a children massive serial killer.
That would be the peak of his abilities so to speak. That probably includes his deranged mental state.

As a side note, it is not clear if Gilles de Retz trully was a child murderer. But in the Grail war, heroes are summoned based on their fame, be it true or not it doesn't matter. What is important is the fame/importance of the image.
After all heroes from legends and even imaginary characters are summoned.

[Archangel]

It seems Caster has been summoned for the part of life of Gilles de Retz as a children massive serial killer.
That would be the peak of his abilities so to speak. That probably includes his deranged mental state.

As a side note, it is not clear if Gilles de Retz trully was a child murderer. But in the Grail war, heroes are summoned based on their fame, be it true or not it doesn't matter. What is important is the fame/importance of the image.
After all heroes from legends and even imaginary characters are summoned.
They come as their own selves though, if not Saber wouldn't be female.

[NeoCybercoin]

I wonder if Chuck Norris could be summoned......

[Kraco]

I wonder if Chuck Norris could be summoned......

Maybe if they make an ova that features the whole holy grail war over in 25 minutes.

[Archangel]

Maybe if they make an ova that features the whole holy grail war over in 25 minutes.
What would happen in the other 24 minutes?

[KrayZ33]

his summoning ritual.

[David75]

Chuck Norris can't be summoned by the Holy Grail, he is the Holy Grail

The Holy Grail war is called "Chuck Norris gets the Holy Grail" when Chuck Norris is there

etc?


They come as their own selves though, if not Saber wouldn't be female.

For some reason, Arturia is special as they explain in the next war. Like how she's summoned again with all her knowledge of the 4th war.

[Buffalobiian]

I'm with Ark that heroes are summoned based more on their true selves than their fame. Emiya-Archer wasn't exactly a shitty self-hating guy at his "peak", or would be be remembered so.

[Buffalobiian]

UTW - Episode 07 (http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=download&tid=259889)






----------------


Kiritsugu can create Reality Marbles.... Was that one step above Projection, which in itself is already a high level magic? Or was that related, but not dependant on such an ability? If anything the UBW arc should have covered such details, but I can't remember them.

I only remember the structure analysis -> reinforce -> projection pathway.

Good to see this episode clear up the relationship between Kiritsugu, Maiya and Iri. I'm not sure whether the discomfort Iri is feeling is due to the her being unable to be the most helpful person to Kiritsugu, or whether she is actually starting to feel threatened by Maiya and fears she'll lose her spot as Kiritsugu's most loved woman.

[Ryllharu]

Kiritsugu can create Reality Marbles.... Was that one step above Projection, which in itself is already a high level magic? Or was that related, but not dependant on such an ability? If anything the UBW arc should have covered such details, but I can't remember them.

I only remember the structure analysis -> reinforce -> projection pathway.Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Projection and Reinforcement was a side effect of UBW's existence if I remember right.


It was nice to see a glimpse Kiritsugu as the worried, unconfident, semi-broken, almost-hero that he's described as in Fate/Stay Night. I thought that we wouldn't see him change so completely until this war was over and he saw the consequences of what he had done. Such as when he picked Shirou up from the devastation he had helped cause. Instead, we got to see that despite his cold-blooded killer attitude, he's actually terrified. His beliefs and attitudes that he would later instill in Shirou were always there. It makes him substantially more human, and a good contrast to the other mages like Kayneth who use mind control on humans to so readily use as pawns.

He cares deeply for Iris and Ilya, and if he had a choice, he would throw away a chance at the grail for their safety. He told Shirou he couldn't be a hero, but he only ever had to be a hero to those two (and sure, Maiya too).

I really liked the visual effect of the Einzbern manor's barrier being crossed on Iris and her corresponding reaction. It was very much an expression of surprise I was used to seeing on Ilya.

Rider was kind of a gag character this episode, but I did enjoy his jealous pursuit for a pair of pants so he could catch up with Saber.

[Xelbair]

Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Projection and Reinforcement was a side effect of UBW's existence if I remember right.


It was nice to see a glimpse Kiritsugu as the worried, unconfident, semi-broken, almost-hero that he's described as in Fate/Stay Night. I thought that we wouldn't see him change so completely until this war was over and he saw the consequences of what he had done. Such as when he picked Shirou up from the devastation he had helped cause. Instead, we got to see that despite his cold-blooded killer attitude, he's actually terrified. His beliefs and attitudes that he would later instill in Shirou were always there. It makes him substantially more human, and a good contrast to the other mages like Kayneth who use mind control on humans to so readily use as pawns.

He cares deeply for Iris and Ilya, and if he had a choice, he would throw away a chance at the grail for their safety. He told Shirou he couldn't be a hero, but he only ever had to be a hero to those two (and sure, Maiya too).

I really liked the visual effect of the Einzbern manor's barrier being crossed on Iris and her corresponding reaction. It was very much an expression of surprise I was used to seeing on Ilya.

Rider was kind of a gag character this episode, but I did enjoy his jealous pursuit for a pair of pants so he could catch up with Saber.
Reality Marbles create different world with different rules, landscape etc. - but they are crushed by the real world after some time. Marble Phantasms on the other hand change probability of weird shit happening - so it is not crushed by the real world as in case of Reality Marbles. Yet they usually don't create such large scale effects like Reality Marble.

[Archangel]

Projection magic and Reality Marbles are in no way related Bill, Shirou's ability to perform it and reinforcement was just a back door use of UBW. His ability isn't to create swords, it's to create a world of blades.

I have a feeling that the pistol Kiritsigu was wielding in the ending is going to give meaning to his nickname, magus killer.

Anyone else felt Saber underperformed this episode? In fact, it's odd how "the strongest servant" keeps getting overpowered by every single of her enemies. Kiritsugu should have summoned Nero :p

[Kraco]

I also felt like Saber is underperforming regularly. Maybe she isn't that tough, in the end, and it's just all hype surrounding her. Naturally I actually prefer it this way, because a war where one side rules unambiguously is boring (like gundams).

Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.

[Archangel]

Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.
Is he aware of who he's fighting though? He's still under the impression that Iris is Saber's master.

[Ryllharu]

I also felt like Saber is underperforming regularly. Maybe she isn't that tough, in the end, and it's just all hype surrounding her. Naturally I actually prefer it this way, because a war where one side rules unambiguously is boring (like gundams).I think Saber isn't hype. She's a beast, but she's a little naive. In this kind of war against these kind of opponents, that's what hurts her the most. That's how Lancer got her in the first place. She didn't see through the obvious deception of dropping his second lance.

She's under-performing now because Lancer sliced all the tendons on her hand. She said it was only the thumb, but I think she has too much pride to admit how truly crippling of an injury it is. She was also very guarded and insistent in this episode when Kiritsugu started to brush off her capabilities. She was eager to show that she is still fully capable of beating another Servant in her condition, but unfortunately, she's missing a lot of the power behind her blows, and her ability to block properly. It's kind of a miracle that she could hold her own against Berserker's blows.

In power to weight ratio, Saber has the capacity to beat nearly every other Servant, including Gilgamesh. But only when she has both hands to properly wield Excalibur (both the sword and the Noble Phantasm itself).


Is he aware of who he's fighting though? He's still under the impression that Iris is Saber's master.They all know who Kiritsugu is, by reputation alone. It wouldn't be hard to figure out who Irisviel's "bodyguard" is, it was well known he entered the family. They know he uses guns and bombs.

[shinta|hikari]

I think I mentioned this before, but Saber's noble phantasm, the fortress destroying projectile Excalibur, was sealed once her thumb was sealed. The move requires two hands. Basically, Saber is void of her noble phantasms right now. Imagine any of the servants she has fought so far and place them in a similar situation (Lancer without his lances, Berserker without his object transforming ability, Caster without that mana book) then you would understand why she looks weak.

I still don't like it though, even if I know why.

Saber can only beat Gil if she had all her noble phantasms, and that is under very favorable circumstances with Gil not performing at max (i.e. no chains).

[Buffalobiian]

She's under-performing now because Lancer sliced all the tendons on her hand. She said it was only the thumb, but I think she has too much pride to admit how truly crippling of an injury it is.

Saber was shown clenching her left fist this episode. Only her thumb looks disabled.


Kiritsugu's single-shot pistol is obviously some sort of mage killing weapon. It was brilliant if simple tactics to make an arrogant bastard like Archibald think he's safe after all the wasted mundane bullets. Although it would still be strange if Archibald so smoothly forgot he's fighting against somebody called a mage killer - for a reason obviously.

Archibald would be cocky because such an elaborate attempt to kill him failed thanks to his mercury familiar (the bombing move). Kiritsugu so far has only shown to use bombs, traps, shoot bullets that get blocked, and run in the face of Kayneth's monster. He sees no reason why Kiritsugu could hold his own in a confrontation against one of the Association's finest.

I'm still not entirely sure about all the Marble stuff.


Projection is just high-level magecraft, Reality Marbles are near-magic (there is a distinction between the two), and Marble Phantasms are on average above even that, though there are certainly exceptions that make Reality Marbles stronger (UBW is one of those exceptions). Reality Marbles can potentially void natural laws that Noble Phantasms can't or something like that.

Shirou's projection was different in that he could produce all his objects without the raw components. Rin said that all projection/magic has to use something to produce something else. The fact that Shirou could create something from nothing puts it at near-sorcery.

Projection and Reality Marbles are both about projecting your own thoughts into existence. I might have to replay UBW after this.. or find some source that will refresh my memory about this without too much inaccuracy or spoilers.

What's this Marble Phantasm?

[Alhuin]

Does Lancer have a cure/dispel for the curse, or is it permanent until he dies? If it's the former, I'm half-expecting him to heal Saber in/after this battle. I don't really have any evidence to base this on, but he seems to be a warrior of honour, so I feel like he'd be ashamed to fight with/against someone with a handicap, even if he was the cause of it in a previous battle.

Looking forward to watching this episode again on Bluray.

[David75]

Does Lancer have a cure/dispel for the curse, or is it permanent until he dies? If it's the former, I'm half-expecting him to heal Saber in/after this battle. I don't really have any evidence to base this on, but he seems to be a warrior of honour, so I feel like he'd be ashamed to fight with/against someone with a handicap, even if he was the cause of it in a previous battle.

Looking forward to watching this episode again on Bluray.

In real life battles, they put garlic and other things on blades so that even if they did not kill immediately, it would be difficult/impossible to heal after being wounded. So for any rule outside the grail war ones, I guess lancer comes with the ones of his time.
Now even if he can stop the curse, he still wants the grail. He knows that eventually he'll face Saber again and he needs that advantage he created for himself to increase the chances of beating her. If someone else beats her, all the better I guess.

[Kraco]

Yeah, there's nothing dishonest about that wound. Even Saber herself doesn't consider it such - quite the contrary: she blames herself for it, due to carelessness and underestimating Lancer. It's really not that much different compared to Saber's own invisible sword, only it has a more lasting effect.

[Buffalobiian]

I don't believe Lancer can cure curses. He's a Lancer, not a Healer or Caster. I consider the lance to be cursed, him his attacks.

Which is funny.. consider the case where he pricks his own finger. xD

[shinta|hikari]

Well the wound does not keep bleeding, as seen in Saber's case, but the damage seems permanent. Pricking his finger would do practically nothing in terms of damage.

[Archangel]

I agree, there's no dishonor in fighting a wounded enemy you wounded yourself.

It's Saber's fault for being careless.

[Buffalobiian]

Well the wound does not keep bleeding, as seen in Saber's case, but the damage seems permanent. Pricking his finger would do practically nothing in terms of damage.

Yeah, that's the strange part. It's weird for a would to be able to heal, yet not heal.

I personally think it's a nerf so that someone can't just bleed to death from ANY wound.

[Archangel]

It's probably just the nerve damage that's maintained.

[Buffalobiian]

It's probably just the nerve damage that's maintained.

It would be extremely difficult to damage the nerve in the wrist such that only the thumb was wounded. And nerves don't exactly heal very well neither.

I'm pretty sure it's a ligament/tendon.

[David75]

I don't believe Lancer can cure curses. He's a Lancer, not a Healer or Caster. I consider the lance to be cursed, him his attacks.

Which is funny.. consider the case where he pricks his own finger. xD

Next war lancer had good magic skills and also had a cursed lance. This war lancer has a cursed lance and his master is a very high level magician, it would not be strange he also possess some magical skills. Or it's just that his master put a curse spell on his lance (but I doubt it).